OK, if you use a single sided mesh (As the cloth room requires) the back sides of the mesh are rendered wrong. The lighting comes from the front (Back... Wrong side) of the mesh. The shadows on the camera side are the ones cast from the away side... In the image the "inside" of the cloth faces the camera. The "outside" is away from the light and therefore renders black. This is not a degenerate, there are no shadows set. Has anybody figured a way to make the insides of dyn. cloth look right?

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with your assesment... if you look right next to her thigh, you see what is apparently the inside of the dress (backside of polygons) being lit from the front as you might expect it to be. Have you tried making a global light, pointing up from her knees to see if you can in fact light that dark area? I could just be the particular light set up.

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Or is there a light from behind her, lighting that part of it (next to her thigh)?

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OK, this is the "one sided square" normal is away from the camera. Which side of the square has the one and only light in the scene... Guess again. The light is pointing straight at the camera. From the other side of the square. The square should be black as there is no light on the camera side. The back of the polygons are rendered as if lit from the front. This gets even weirder when you add shadows to the mix.

Interesting... which renderer? Does it happen with the P4 renderer as well?

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Now, lets get complicated... Anybody wanna guess how this will render...

Anyway, it's apparently happening in one of the renderers at least, which is just a bug... if the software is going to render rear-facing polygons, it needs to flip the normal before computing the lighting. I can't think of any work-around off-hand, other than exporting the dress, flipping all the faces, possible scaling it slightly, re-importing it to use as the back/inside of the dress... ie. big pain in the ass.

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Both... But if you render it in P4 native it looks right... Well sort of the square doesn't cast a shodow, but at least it's lit from the right side.

(or setting up more lights, which may not fit what you had in mind)

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P4 Native

P4 in P5

Uhm, that's frelled up, dude ;).

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An FireFly. This puts a serious cramp in Dynamic Cloth as the inside will always be lit wrong.

Yep. BTW, is that with ray-traced shadows? or does it make a difference?

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Same beef with ray traced shadows. Shadow bias doesn't seen to have any effect on this. The renderer is simply rendering the wrong side of the polygon. I was really hoping somebody had found a way around this. I have several items I want to release. But they are Dyn cloth items and you see both sides of them depending on the pose. This bug prevents my items from being useful. Nerd

Yeah, it looks like the CL 3d programmer was asleep at the wheel on this one. I guess all you can do is report it and hope it gets fixed. As for work-arounds, have you tried a double-layer rolled hem model? With both inward and outward facing polys?

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...scale copy of dress slitghtly smaller, flip the normals, the stitch up the seams with some more polys or just weld the seam vertices. I'm not sure what the cloth-room would think about that relative to it needing to be an open-tube, but technically, it still fits that description, I think. You might have some self-collision issues, though.

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I've tried it the mesh always crosses it's self the inside piece ends up ontop of the outside and you get little black spots. OR the faces get so close together that your get self shadowing and more black spots... Even with "Self Collision" turned on. AAARRRGGGHHHHH!!!! The only thing that looks sorta right is a global light set that doesn't cast shadows... Not a lotta artistic lattitude there.

I filed this as a bug... I ain't gunna hold my breath.

I had one more thought.. if you do have a layered dress, you might then be able to turn off rendering backfaces.

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On the bright side, Charles... You convert that dress to conforming and I'll buy it. :-) But don't forget Stephanie! hrmm...

Attached Link: Nerd Freebies

The Clara 5 Dress is already available as a freebie ;)

I don't do Poser 5. Too slow, bugs... You know the story. The only thing that ever makes me consider trying it again is that cloth room. Although, recent developments would indicate it still isn't quite right. You ever get the superconforming in P5 thing figured out?

Superconforming in P5... Meet Taanis It required some interesting tricks and I call it AutoConforming now.

Maz's thing is called "TwoFace" and Poser doesn't seem to understand what ever Maz did. The mesh still imports as single sided. If there is a utility out there that can really get Poser to do a two sided mesh that may work.

Awe, man. I don't much use V2 anymore. But, the outfit looks cool and I'll probably by the thing just to see how you did it. LOL!

Attached Link: Mazak's Grafikwelt

I use the Clay node in Alternate_Diffuse channel to fix the one side polygon problem. With this little trick shadows display on both sides correct. (See my Mazak logo) ;-) Mazak

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btw. this trick work well with Robert Sharkeys Angelyna Wings. Who render black in FireFly with default material settings. Mazak

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Mazak's trick works not only with the clay node but also with the diffuse node. The material in my shot works in both FireFly and the P4 renderer in Poser 5. You don't lose anything as you can use the inputs of the diffuse node just like you would use the first two inputs of the PoserSurface node, e.g. plugging textures into it. Hmm...looks like I really should get started with my FireFly FAQ... Stefan

Which nod is used is not so important. The P5 material editor has a lot potential :) Mazak

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Thanks for the tip, Mazak! Stephan, looking forward to the Firefly FAQ. (and P5/G5!)

Thanks Stewer and Mazak, I have to study the above examples some more, but it seems like these are suggested work-arounds for an inherent bug in the rendering engines... are there plans to fix the software?

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...it should only be a few lines of code (possibly in several places)... if you're going to render backfaces, you need to flip the normals before using them to perform lighting and shadow calculations.

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YES YESS YIPPIE!!! I just knew somebody around here must have found a way to get around this. I Love This Place! Nerd

I will file a bug report for that problem, that is all I can do. I do not work at Egisys any more, I got to work on my thesis now.

Self Shadowing. THe two fabrics will shade each other and you will get what a lot of peopole call "The Black Facets of Death" Besids the cloth room really does not like two sides mmeshes Nerd

bikermouse - Poser 4 doesn't need a workaround. It renders fine in Poser 4 and the Material room trick will also work with the Poser 4 renderer inside Poser 5.

@bikermouse
Nerd needed a solution for single sided mesh in P5 cloth room. Double sided mesh did not work with it.
Poser 4 has already an update, called Poser 5 ;-)

Mazak

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fine.

Bikermouse. I've used a very similar technique to create a dress that could have a different color lining (Nimue Dress) And it works great in P4. It will even work as conforming clothes in P5. Unfortunately the cloth room freaks out on clothes that have some thickness to them. Nerd

Nerd, Thank you for your reply. I tried the doubling method on Clara's dress in P5, and thought an intervening invisable layer to absorb the shadows might work to keep the pixels of death away but it becomes unrealistic at some point both from the memory standpoint and the amount of time required to make such adjustments. I might play around with it for my own amusement, but it appears impractical when at best theres a better solution. ... I removed my previous posts to both avoid confusion away from the subject, and to avoid turning what has been an informative and interesting thread into something else. If anyone has interest in what I deleted, I'll repost on another thread. - TJ

This is what all the hair pulling was for...

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FYI for all the folks that (dot)ed this thread. The specular value has the same problem. The standard one does. It does not show on the back faces. But if you plug a node... Any node into the Alternate Specular you are "Back" in business.

Some of the textures for this creation got a bit wild with this technique, but at least it works! Nerd

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The above posts and solutions seems fine for certain situations....BUT I don't think it's a TOTAL solution. I've been having similar problems for months using building props and characters which use to render fine in Poser 4 but no longer in Poser 5. If you look at the image below you can see defects in the original building. And where the defect is it's on the same plane (Material section). If I try to render using the above methods all it does is change everthing. You still see the defective area. I have contacted Sams 3D (it's there original Haunter House)about this and there web site led me to this post. I've been told (from another source)that it appears to be broken verticies in the original model which to me is a defect in the original. Am I right or not? If this is the case then the original model (MESH) needs to be re-made if it is to be used correctly in Poser 5. The problem we are all seeing now is that Poser 4 did not see these defects and rendered them fine. Poser 5 sees them and this is the result. I've also encountered this problem with Andix 3D Modelz. Funny thing is I never see this with Travelers or Transponds (Runtime DNA)work nor do I see it in Marforno's (MnD Productions). This tells me that the ways those others mrechants are creating there original meshes for Poser 5 are doing it correctly FOR POSER. But the others are using a method that is not totally correct for the texture shading models needed for Poser 5. Can Curious Labs fix this? Is it a bug in Poser 5? I'm starting to have my doubts. There seems to be more than one problem here yet we are complaining about similar problems that Poser 5 is now seeing. I've been on this for over 6 months and still can't get a difinitive answer other than the broken verticies in the original model. I even contacted Curious Labs about this with no response.

It's a combination of two things that are affecting Sam's3D. YOu need to switch the textures to the alternate diffuse and specular AND also add a displacement map. This will correct the houses & furniture that have render problems in Poser 5

before

after

Don't use the clay node. It doesn't shadow properly, use a diffuse node. It works much better for what you are doing. And use a Specular node to plug into the Alt Specular. You'll be much happier with the results. Happy Rendering Nerd

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JD Wohlever
Techware 3D