Ok I want to get 3 or 4 people that are pretty fluent in Vue to try and assemble some sort of team to try different ideas to eventually make a tutorial on realism and proper lighting. Wow thats a long sentence. Any how I am really close and just tryed something with pretty decent results. But I dont have a high quality model. I dont have the extra cash to purchase a very high quality model so we will have to scavage the web to find one. When a model is found we will all use that model to expirement till realism is achieved. When it is then we will begin the tutorial part of how it was achieved... Whatcha think, Hope this makes sense? You can reach me on aol instant messenger by the name ibanezcollector or thru my email savage21@wideopenwest.com I think with the right people and some crazy ideas we can break thru vue's half decent lighting and achieve realism..

thats not what im saying at all.. Im saying find a free one somewhere.. I dont know every free model site on the web.. But we would need something very detailed. FREE is the key word.. Not have someone pay for it.. I never no where in that post implied or meant for it to sound like I was implying someone to buy a model.. Vue does not have the best lighting in the rendering world and all im saying is with a few creative people we might be able to come up with something.. Ever see a 3D Max HDRI render.. Thats lighting.. Vue of course isnt a $3600 dollar program but I think with some of the people here on the site we might be able to come up with something close on our own.. Then others can learn how to do it for themselves..

I would have to stay stick to the program and spend as much time working with Vue as you are making up contests or what ever else. If you have a specific question or need help with a certain part of the program, by all means just ask. Photo realism can be achieved with not a whole lot of effort. Try new things, instead of the Vue can't do this or that. Perhaps try the approach in what ways can I do this with Vue. If you look at the galleries and find a photo realistic scene you like just ask the artist how he did it and more than like you will learn how. Vue is not a CRUSE LOL it is a blessing. BTW I think you should run any contest ideas by the moderator of this forum. That way you may get a more positive result and learn more. Just a thought. ~shoop PS you came pretty close with the cel phone I thought. Keep up the effort.

see this is what im talking about this was rendered in 3D Studio Max.. How would you acheive this in vue? See I dont think its possible but with some creative minds we may be able to get close.. Buy making some sort of filters or doing something out of the ordinary.. We may some how be able to revolutionize(spelling) vue lighting instead of just saying its fine the way it is.. We as people need to evolve and so does software.. If vue wont do it for you then someone with the creativity and patience may be able to do it.. Im not trying to sound cocky, im not trying to be bullish as some one put it.. Im just trying to get a few people to work with me on a project to help other vue'ers. Didnt know this would cause a scene.. If so sorry i'll keep trying myself. Teamwork is just that a Team more than one..

Well, honestly that can be done in Vue. Yes, I would just keep trying. Good luck.

RDS how would you go about getting the details in the car like the trees etc etc on the roof and the wing in vue with out adding super reflections to the material. How would you achieve such a high amount of reflections with out over doing the material to the point its almost a mirror? How would you set it so its illumination isnt a spot light or point light(i.e. Global Illumination). See thats what I want to know and everyone says it can be done but no one can tell you how. This is what I want to change.

let me rephrase the above.. How would one get those reflections with out making the whole car totally reflective.

Adjusting the reflective materials editor Click variable Reflectivity then play with the function editor. Next try a number of the different light gels that Vue offers. If that does not work delete the sun all together and start playing with lighting. Add different lights and experiment with results in small renders. In the Gel editor there are number of things you can do. See how that works and let me know. I think the main thing is to get in front of the program more and experiment. Hope this may be helpful and good luck. `shoop

ibanezcollector, you can do a contest for it here at Renderosity. Just get some prices to offer, write an IM to Spike who can create you a contest page and then run the contest. :-)Guitta

Oh I don't know, David did this one, looks really good and I did this the Mill, not bad as far as realism goes. Sharen

.

All done in Vue, no postwork

Well,i think what ibanezcollector is missing is the capability of radiosity in Vue.But in fact it can be faked, like i`m faking it in Cinema 8.1 most of the time to avoid long rendertimes.Reflections can be set over 100% in vue,even highlights.The key to get more control over the materials of your scene is to seperate parts of an object. Therefore you need high detail models .I think the idea of making a sort of competition is quiete interresting:)

http://www.fredivoss.de 

...yippi ah yeah or something like that...

Hmm.. I don't know.. Doesn't this looks photorealistic. I could be cheated if I was told it was a photo, I'm sure :) Well.. I've just created a new tutorial with "photorealism" as the theme. You might wanna take a look at it. It's in the tutorial-section. And I find the challenge thing exciting too! :) I'd love to sponsor a 3rd prize or something with my package "Small Trees 01" :)

woops! Forgot to attache the image :)

Did you try playing with arrays of soft quadratic point lights ? I am on a business trip right now, so I can't give you an example in Vue but I will try to make one when I get back on friday.

• agiel - www.linfa.net

Well, let me show some examples first my latest vue image. only 3 lights (1 sunlight included).

http://www.fredivoss.de 

...yippi ah yeah or something like that...

This one is not done in vue,it is a cinema image.But i used 3 lights here ,too.Very simple constellation.GI is not necessary all the time.

http://www.fredivoss.de 

...yippi ah yeah or something like that...

Awesome pics ! ;=) Yves

ok maybe I have a different opinion on what looks real.. All of the above look awesome but you can clearly tell there computer animated. My idea of realism is you can not tell it was done on a computer. Lets look at the suitcase for a moment. Its a beautiful scene and looks fairly real but it still looks fake. I love the textures and the lighting is good but it lacks realism. Here is some shots of the type of realsim Im talking about..

another

another

more

See those look real.. Not kinda real cause you used some high quality textures. No disrespect meant to anyone. See thats photo realism in my eyes. Its all about the lighting. In real life lighting doesnt reflect or distribute like vue does. Thats its flaw. I again am not complaining cause I dont have the money to buy a 3700 dollar program. All I was saying is lets get a few of renderositys top vue image makers and set forth a mission to somehow create a way in vue to give others a tool to work with. I never wanted a contest, or thought of offering it.. I dont know where this keeps coming from. I just wanted to assemble a team of hard working, dedicated, vue creators to try and solve one of vues downfalls.

last one

I see,this is almost a kind of philosophical discussion now.Very interresting.You brought nice examples,althought the beetle does not look real at all to me.I think, the question is ,which kind of photorealism should be achived: the reality of a 18 by 24 inch Kamera or the reality of a 24 by 36 mm Kamera.Or should it be the reality of a human eye?All images shown here are more or less an interpretation of "photorealism",filtered through the eye of the artist. I think it is a good idea to push Vue to it's limits,like you're planning. Btw:my suitcase is not a finished scene.I took it as a detail from a complex scene as an example for modelling. Another thing:you don't have to spend 3700 bucks to get a high end programm,take a look at Cinema it's much cheaper if you get the XL-bundle (including HDRI and GI ):) But ok,we're in the Vue forum here...:) cheers rollmops.

http://www.fredivoss.de 

...yippi ah yeah or something like that...

Thanks for sharing those presentation. How I wish Vue can do this straight from the box without too much messing. Again, great idea you have here!

I have played around with faking radiosity and got something close. Used a luminous white block behind the model. It has the reflections showing up clearly to my mind!! There are a few others I posted last month in my gallery. Can give you some more details if you think it edges towards what you are yearning for. regards Rokol.

Hmm ... what an interesting thread , what is photorealism.... is it what we see, or what we want to see.. So ibanezcollector , is the last pictures you have posted realistic pictures ??? No even if they look real... I take your pictures : 1. the airplane This is a very good meshe but most of the textures are photographic. The background is a photo, OK it seems to be real. But what's the difference with a full photo ?? 2. The beetle car. I heve never seen a car in such a situation. It stand in a plain gray 'room' and we can see reflection of buildings on it ??? 3. The guitar I have a friend who plays guitar. He owns a real stratocaster. It is much more dirty than the picture you have posted ... where is reality ?? 4. The candels How many candels have you seen in your life, ok it is like in a photographer studio.... This is not real.... even if it is photorealistic. ... it is a composition 5. The 'balls' Even in the most skilled photographer's dreams, such a picture would be really impossible... what fkond of perfect windows to create such reflections ??? Ok .... may be you misunderstand somethings.... what kind of picture do you want to create ??? and what kind of tool do you choose ... One thing more... in the pictures you have posted : no plants, no buildings, no characters .... and ... what kind of postworks where used .... ? If what you want to render is a sports car in a plain grey ground... try Lightwave or 3DSMax.... it is possible with Vue, but I agree with you, Vue is not the most suitable tool ... And yes it would be a great challenge to render a car on a plain gray ground with Vue ... Cheers Patrick

Oh .... I have posted a quick render of a car on a plain gray ground.... rendered with Vue.... the mesh is from the VUE4 CD. This is a low poly mesh... with plain textures and with few modifs.... I'm sure it is possible to do much more better.... they are some mistakes in the textures (the rear tyre, and so else)... I don't think that Vue is a 'half lighted' soft .... cheers.... Patrick

What is realism? The dictionary definition is: Representing or viewing things as they are in reality. Being a human is reality. However, even though we are 99.999% the same genetically as humans we all are unique in our ideas and thinking. What one person see as reality another does not. What is true for a child no longer holds true when it becomes an adult. If this is a discussion of philosophy it could take forever and many books to come to any conclusions as a team. In general I would not go to the 3ds forum and convey the idea that 3ds is has realism defects in my eyes. Why would I do that? Everyone at that forum would wonder I am sure, what my view of reality really is. I have learned that many do not see things in the same perceptions as I. Some people have selective seeing only seeing fault or praise based on certain bias. Others may only hear what they want to hear based on personal desire. On and on it goes and has since the beginning I think. Vue is a fantastic program and what the degree of realism you as an artist can bend the program to attain is your personal victory over the math involved. Cost is not the issue IMHO, perception is. Now I perceive the attached image of 3 spheres very real. Others however, may not. Some may view me as a real pain in the neck others may not. The fans of Marilyn Monroe may think she should have used her real name Norma Jean to maintain more realism others really dont care and only where interested in there perceptions of her beauty. Why not a contest? That can be a very good way to test your theory and learn more as well. Once again good luck in your search for reality. `shoop

Yeah, I like this thread too... Ibanez, you have used some spectacular examples to show what you mean. I however am of the impression that no mater how good you are with Vue, the sort of look your attempting is not possible! Now let me put into perspective whats 'not possible' about it, before everyone starts disagreeing with me... Radiosity is a BIG issue with the sort of pic you want to make. Vue isn't capable, and therfore will NOT yeild the same result. Can it be faked? I dunno, I'm pretty impressed with Rokol's attempt at it, and sure i feel that Vue is capable of phenominal work, but that aside can this be done? I'm glad you bought this up, and I for one am willing to help, and challenge myself with it also. We may not get to where we want, but I think we will have fun trying. Count me in. Email: kutteruk@yahoo.co.uk Kutter. Oh by the way... The model can be anything! it doesn't have to be complicated... look at the balls and candles pics! I think we should throw some examples of models in here to see what we can find. Then all pick the same model and see what we can do with it :) One other thing... I'm real busy at the moment and can't throw a lot of time at it, but I come to the forum everyday, so keep me up to date...

Oooh Shoop :) You posted as I was typing... Great pic bud, the Red ball looks better than the other two, but its an excellent attempt. I agree with you about perception, and I think that something like this can and will bring people together. Ideas will clash, but ultimately I think we can all learn a lot. Lets not have a 'contest' so to speak, lets just have a common place where we can come, show and tell what we've been up to ... I want to learn, and Renderosity is the best place on the net. Lets pool our resources and get this thing going :) Just need a common model so we can all be working from the same spot :) Kutter

Sure sounds like you and Ibanez are on the same page. Give it a try and I disagree with the (no mater how good you are with Vue, the sort of look your attempting is not possible!)All things are possible, and if you throw enough time and effort towards anything desired results can be attained. Good luck.

Yves (YL) inspired me to learn more about lights, (as I'm learning now) so, I know I don't have proper authority to speak in this matter But I think Patrick is right. If you want to create HDRI, my personal opinon would be Vue is not the proper tool. But realism/photorealism, well that's up to the viewers. One person might be happy with the picture from a $50 camera, then may be the next person won't be happy with the same shot with a top notch SLR camera. So, it is up to you, how you want to create your realism. And quiet frankly how can you make up a team, when every team member will have a different definition of photorealism? Look at all the pictures posted, everyone (including you) clamed the pictures are photo realistic. Yet they are very different from each other. But, as I was typing Kutter joined your leage. :-) Good luck to you two. You wrote, "Ever see a 3Ds Max HDRI render.. Thats lighting.. " ... well, that's the first and formost thing ofcourse, but "that's" not all. It requires HIGH detailed meshes, shadows & highlights, then ofcourse gradient plays a role; post work requires tonemapping or may be gamma correction or may be something else! And after all this the end result would make someone applaud and someone turn their face otherway! :-) ... My humble opinion.

Count me in too! I'll help. Anything we do re lighting will be useful, and will probably help others. Lighting is the most critical element and the first rule is to never take it for granted. Re: Kutter's comments about a common place to work, ... I think I can make part of my web site available to all via Anon FTP. Will take me a day to work out how, but was wanting to figure this out anyhow. I have lots of space and my web site is sitting right on top on the eastern Level 1 Line for the US, so it can handle any bandwidth anyone might have. Will post a URL here tomorrow if I can get this up and running correctly tonite. If anyone needs FTP software let me know.

About realism : 1

About realism 2 :

Attached Link: http://www.gillesesnault.com

About realism 3 : Yes all this pictures are oil paintings ...by my friend Gilles Esnault.... no software at all .... this could be a good example of what we are looking for ... No ???

Hmm Patrick. THIS is photorealism. BUT : About the post you made before these ones : I totally disagree with you! "3. The guitar : I have a friend who plays guitar. He owns a real stratocaster. It is much more dirty than the picture you have posted ... where is reality ??" This image IS photorealistic :) You can't say that because it's not dirty is isn't realistic. I play guitar, I've seen plenty of stratocasters and the new ones, definately aren't dirty. They look JUST like the one ibaneze posted :) "4. The candels : How many candels have you seen in your life, ok it is like in a photographer studio.... This is not real.... even if it is photorealistic. ... it is a composition" So what your saying is that an image from uhmm.. the medieval-age for example, can't be photorealistic since it's impossible to travel back in time? :) - Thomas

My opinion is that it is not possible to obtain in Vue the realism of the pictures shown by ibanezcollector, done with C4D for instance. By realism we can say a picture looking like a photo, as some which were presented above. The reason is there is no GI and radiosity and hdri in Vue. Of course we can fake them, but in that case huge rendering times are necessary since we need high quality renders (I mean rendering times > 100h for a single sphere !). One important thing is also to model the environment surrounding the objects of a scene : the environment will reflect in the objects and add to realism as we can see on ibanezcollector pic of 3 balls; this pic could be done in Vue but it should be necessary to model all environment or to add a semi-sphere with a mapped picture on it : again huge rendering time with Vue which is limiting the possibilities ! An other point, the quality of models, tends to increase rendering times. Could be interesting to have a contest on that topic :=p One of the first time I see a thread concerning realism in Vue most of the time people only want to do landscapes with Vue ;=) Yves

I think I may have found a way to sorta fake the hdri in the picture with the 3 spheres im going to render it on final real quick(lol) and then post it for opinions.. I really had to try some sill stuff but I may have it.. Be back in a few after the renders done..

Wow, this thread is getting more and more interesting :) Ibanez, i think you are working with the wrong program. Vue d'esprit, as was said here before me, cannot do this type of renders. You'll need a good global lighting solution, and a razor-sharp renderer. C4D, Lightwave, Softimage, Max. Well, the big guys. Vue was intended to be a simple, easy to use (and cheap!!) landscape program. You can do wonderful art with it, and this community is the proof, but those sparkly swooshy sleeky car renders were never its strong point. As Patrick said here, photorealism is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. One looks for the perfect reflective car paint gloss, while the other looks for dirt, grit and imperfection. Personaly i stopped saying wow over those perfect renders as they have become almost mundane in the world of 3D. I get much more excited seeing an image which conveys a feeling, a mood, an atmosphere, a story. However, this type of photorealism is very much appreciated in the professional 3D world, where it's realy needed for industrial design and visualisation. But then again, you'll have to work with a "high end" program.

Thomas, What I would to say is that this may be 'photo' but not 'realistic' ... may be this is mmh ... 'photoidealistic'...? I can see the skill of the guy... but something is missing... not necessary dirt :) Have a look at the shadows in the 'guitar' picture... The volume button shadow, the tone button shadow ... and the micro shadow.... they are all false. What I can say about this picture is : brilliant ... but false shadows ... sorry ... :-) But this could be a great challenge to try a real 'photorealistic' picture with Vue

Ok heres what I did.. I set up the picture then I deleted the ground and made a cube extremly thin and some what transparent. Since I couldnt get vue to shade half the so called ground I put 2 black boxes underneath the ground so it changed the color of the ground. Which produced the shade. I then added 3 lights and a alpha plane.. I then made the alpha plane somewhat transparent and made it so it reflects colored light. So basically when the light, which is really turned up hits the alpha plane it will project the image on to the spheres.. I then created two seperate pictures one with the alpha plane and one with out.. I then headed to photoshop to blend the two images.. Heres a screen shot of vue to show the lay out and the picture will follow in the next post.. I think if I mess with the materials and light more I may just found what I wanted..

ok scratch the whole photoshop idea.. Didnt work as I planned here the untouched picture with the light bursting thru the alpha plane..

now if I lightly texture the ground, and mess with the materials to give it more of a pool ball feel versus the metallic feel it has now. I might be on to something.. The lighting which isnt my strong point needs reworked as well. But its a start..

Well with this thread of attention getting so long I will just finish with you came in saying it couldn't be done and in just a few hours now you claim it just maybe possible. Good job on that. Have fun with the program. BTW I play Guitar too and that is NOT how a Strat's screws look either. It was once said to duplicate the real world in reality is what a good digital camera was made for. This is art we are doing here I think? LOL.. :)

On the subject of the strat, the saddles would have to be taken apart to restring it. The cylinder part of the string is under the bridge. Is on mine, anyway.

Wow,this is going to be one of the longest threats of the last time :)

http://www.fredivoss.de 

...yippi ah yeah or something like that...

Hi Patrick, your friend Gilles Esnault is absolutely brilliant... Great technique...

Have written it before, and writes it again. It isn't possible to compaire Vue with expensive software. And I can't see the reason why asking for, how do I do this in Vue. If all these goodies is already in hand. And if your people want to make good images with good lightes, get yourself a "photo book". The best way to learn.... :)

Well... As the president of the US once said it : We aren't doing it because it's easy! We're doing it because it can be done!

I can't agree with these last posts : it's hard to obain realistic pictures (prefer to say "quality"), but it's not an excuse to produce low quality pic ! to produce flat landscapes has also no real interest ... It's of course possible to produce high quality pic with Vue ! There are some from time to time. Photorealism is an other level of difficulty, the problem is rendering time. As I said in an other thread, we all are interested by artistic scenes, a photorealistic picture with one sphere has not a real interest for us (has only a technical value). But An other point is that it seems strange to me that some here do not consider photo as an art ...

"We aren't doing it because it's easy! We're doing it because it can be done!" Depends, if it can be done. ;p.... I don't use the word impossible, since I did what I did with Vue2, but vue is far away from 3ds, Maya, XSI, and so on... Done some renderings in 3ds lately, and the reality is far better then Vue. Sure, you end up with time consuming renders, but the images are stunning. :) A scene is always better then a single object. But always remember that, some people are better at modeling objects then scenes. All the objects that people use in the scenes... :)

Mmm this subject needs a reply. I dont get Realism, seems to be a magic word lately. Im moderator on a large Photoshop board and believe it or not, Ive seen so many people trying to make lifeless realistic objects; glass balls, cell phones, calculators, cars, etc Even a coffee machine! Same story here in this thread about realism, cars, planes, suitcases and whatever. I was originally born in Holland, land of masters like Vermeer, Rembrandt, van Gogh, Jan Steen, Frans Hals, Karel Appel, etc. Did they go for nothing but realism? No. Did anyone ask themselves why? Theres a lot more to it than just creating realism. An image needs to have a soul or heart, maybe a reflection of an idea or emotion. People who dont understand this will never learn what art is really about. Ask yourself why certain photographs have such an impact on the viewer. Is it because of the realism? No. If someone ever achieves to render 3 perfect balls on a pool table, does that make him an artist? No. Dont get me wrong, theres nothing wrong with realism, as long as its used to make a beautiful and impressive image thats like a modern version of a painting of one of the real masters of this and previous centuries and not just a perfect render. Three perfect balls cant compete with one of the best images of Thomas Krahn or Pmermino (to name just a few good Vue artists); they know what art is all about! Btw, I also dont understand why someone who can buy a computer and Vue dEsprit, isnt able to save money for a program like Cinema 4D 8 that sells for less than $595 and save himself a lot of headaches in Vue dEsprit, because thats like using MS Paint instead of Photoshop, with all respect for Vue dEsprit which is a great program, but you have to open your eyes for its limitations. Everyone also has to ask himself when hes not a top #D artist whether its worth to spend weeks and weeks on one scene, especially if you also have something like family life. Of course, its not up to me to decide what anyone does with his spare time; Im only defending the wives and kids ;) I didnt want to offend anyone. Im only trying to defend what art should be all about and I do understand that theres nothing wrong with trying to create something realistic in Vue, but please, dont forget the real meaning of art, because it would only make me sad

Yes, I agree with you concerning the simplicity of a scene (one or 3 balls in a scene could not really considered as a scene). But, as Alekssander said we must cheer about the modellers, they are often very talentuous, creating a cell phone, even a coffe machine is not easy (even if it's not art). I personally highly appreciate these persons. Also, the frontier is not so clear with art and design, if a modeller create a new shape of coffee machine and make a great render, in an artistic way, it could become an art work(?). Very often we can see head characters models in C4D gallery, new wonderful models, it could be consider as an art work to do it and render it at high quality (?). C4D for 595$, this soft is a dream, but it's a little high for me as I'm no professional just hobbyist , must feed my family ;=)

Well.. I agree too... but giving a picture a soul or anything else wasn't the goal of this challenge. The single and ONLY goal was/is to achieve something that looks like a photo. Not to make a rembrandt :) But thanks for the kind words Gaussian! - Thomas

YL, I have to feed my family too, 5 to be exact, but the point that I was trying to make is that if someone has the money to buy a descent computer for Vue (that's a lot more expensive than $595) then he also has the money to buy Vue d'Esprit. The only difference is, that everybody makes different choices. What you save here can be spend somewhere else ;) I mean, I hear people say that they don't have money for this or that, but at the same time they buy a brand new car for $25,000 US... it's all about choices ;-) I understand Thomas that nobody needs to make a Rembrandt of course, but instead grabbing some basic ideas about art. That doesn't change the fact that even I am very interested to see how far we can go with realism in 3D, although realism shouldn't be the ultimate goal the way ibanezcollector tries to make some of us believe, at least that's my impression and sorry if I'm wrong.

its not an ultimate goal but it is a tool in the 3D toolbox.. This wasnt about making a scene, artwork, or even anything it was about trying to mess with vue to get some sort of edge on lighting.. With out having to spend 600-4000 dollars on software.. I dont see the big deal why everyone is in a hub bub over this.. If you were say an artist would you limit yourself to one brush, one medium, one style? No then why do it with this program.. Its all about options and doing things from the normal.. Some of todays great artists say Salvadore Dali for instance did some whacky stuff in his day, that Im sure people said was stupid or weird or just plain goofy.. But to others Dali was inspirational, astounding, etc etc.. If you dont want realism then carry on as you were.. If you do then try to change the way normal people think of vue.. Thats what im trying to do. Not create masterpieces for an art museum.. This is a challenge to me.. It stimulates my brain.. It helps me furtur understand the progam and its nuances. It helps me get a better idea of lighting. It helps me learn more about materials and the way they react with lighting. It makes me learn how light reflects off of non reflective objects. Etc Etc.. All things a great artist should know.. So in fact im learning more than just slapping some objects into a scene and pushing render. Even a newbie will eventually come out with a good one that way.. Yes it may sound arrogant but in time I will learn more than just using vue and never exploring its boundaries.. Ibanezcollector