Hey, you people might want to post your technical questions in this forum, and I can understand why you'd want to as there are only like 15 people who ever use the Poser Technical forum, but it's getting a bit out of hand. There's a forum SPECIFICALLY FOR Poser Technical questions and answers. It's called 'Poser Technical'. And if you're having problems with your video card, there's a forum specifically for Hardware/Technical isues, too. So go ask those questions there. And if you're having problems with DAZ, well, there's a place specifically FOR that, too, called DAZ technical support complete with an 800 number.

Why did I just post that? I and several other merchant have recently been on the pointy end of the segregation schtick because we wanted to show off your works in progress and because those works in progress were intended to be sold at some point we were told that we can't post them in this forum by innumerable people. Fair is fair. There's a forum specifically for Poser Technical questions, and I think that if I should be expected to put a poser creation work in progress in the Product Showcase forum simply because I intend to sell it eventually, then everyone who needs help getting reflections to work or getting P4 transmaps to work in P5 or asking the same bloody querstion about not being able to get to their window becaus somehow they put it two stories up above their screen so they need to reset to factory defaults shold be forced into the Poser Technical forum too. After all, that's what it's there for, and I don't want to see my Poser forum getting littered up with people's technical questions.

Hey..don't take out your anger on new users, Dodger. Having your document window go missing is NOT really technical. TECHNICAL is how to hack a CR2.

And showing off a work in progress is not advertising, even if it's going to be for sale. It's certainly less advertising than technical support is technical. That's why they call it technical support. Anyway, I'm not angry. If I were angry I wouldn't think of the comparison, I'd be too flustered. But I do want to see fairness.

Err you two want to take this to the OT forum??

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someone needs to cut back on their caffine :)

If it's any consolation, it looks like some people are still posting product info here. Besides, newbies (and others) might be intimidated by "Poser technical"; they might worry that their questions are too trivial for the real technical experts.

I'm confident the mods can handle if a posting is too technical and should be moved. I agree with Spit, technical is asking how to do geometry switching or probably how to's on jcm.

I third Spit and Netherworks. Technical is for, well, techn ical stuff. Not jus toperating the knobs, dials, and controls of the product. I've never noticed a "help me!" post aside from "help me I'm a pirate without Poser documentation/serial number/hind brain" in the Poser forum (that I recall) that riled. However, there HAVE been numerous apparent "look, it's not advertising OK? I just wanted to draw people's attention to this wonderful item that'll be for sale soon is all, so I can make a buck. Not advertising at all, no-no - asking for feedback, WIP images, perficly legit yer honors" type posts.

I'm confident the mods can handle if a posting is too technical and should be moved. I'm afraid you're being rather naive if you think that would ever happen. But as I said, if that's not technical, posting my WIPs is not advertising. Whether I'm going to sell the end result or not. there HAVE been numerous apparent "look, it's not advertising OK? I just wanted to draw people's attention to this wonderful item that'll be for sale soon is all, so I can make a buck. Not advertising at all, no-no - asking for feedback, WIP images, perficly legit yer honors" That is exactly the sort of prejudice and segregative/discriminative activity that I'm talking about. Just because it's going to be sold does not mean that showing off a work in progress is any diffeent than if you're going to give it away or give it to your wife.

I agree somewhat with Dodger on the advertising. I do not sell products either. Before buying a product it would be nice to see some renders of what can be done with it etc.. What I would not like to see is, here is a simple render of the item(s) I am working on and they will be in the marketplace today for XXXXX. I am pretty new to poser and I assumed that the technical forum was for problems with the product itself i.e how do you adjust the lighting etc.. but not for items like what is the best format to save my renders?

sabretalon: As dodger has pointed out, there is indeed a product showcase to show what goods are like. There are also publicity images in the marketplace. dodger: I don't know (truly) whether you're being deliberately provocative in your response to me or whether you really consider me prejudiced. A term (along with the others that followed) which I do not take kindly to. There IS a case for some posts which display images of things which later become saleable products. But it's equally true that there are underhand "I think I can get away with this" adverts. Take for example a post which gives a DAZ-like spiel, JUST like the advertising blurb spinning a tale of "far-off barbarian toadstools battling against evil treee-frog overlords" (mad eup scenario) to accompany some images of a few textured fungi "for sale at a store near you soon!". Just like DAZ's posts of Victoria3, and DAZ Studio, and so on and so forth such posts are DESIGNED to drum up interest in the product. That makes them advertising in my book. To take a FAR extreme, how about someone posting a "I'm gonna do some hybrid P5 characters for freebies - which characters would you like to see Don and Judy's faces on?" has come across to me quite differently. We've even had some borderline cased - where, IIRC, DAZ bodies (or brokers) have posted WIP images which lie partway between the two extremes. I'd have to say that it'd be easier to judge on a case-by-case basis when someone was trying to "sneak one past" and when they were genuinely trying to make sure that the product they're working on is going to feature what most people want (there isn't a "free product development poll" forum so this usually tends to be the place to come, on Renderosity anyway). I would appreciate it if you didn't call me prejudiced, segregative or discriminative in trhe future without evidence that such prejudical labels actually apply. Yes I've got the hump, Cliff Bowman

who3d, if you start to take it to the letter then you can not have people post any WIP because they may be promoting their or others items in their render. This would therefore be advertising. What about them posting links to their galleries to show off their work? Yes there is the product showcase and I only go there when looking for something in particular.

sabretalon:- you take "There IS a case for some posts which display images of things which later become saleable products" (and indeed much of the rest of the post where I suggest cases where posts don't appear to be blatant advertising) as "taking it to the letter"? As I see it we can go one of two ways with a moratorium on "commercial advertising". We can either go "to the letter" (which seems MOST unlikely) or we can allow some room for interpretation on posting images of "our own" commercial images (and it's not adverts per se that are banned, but COMMERCIAL adverts - so your image gallery is safe). If, as we have been, we don't take a hard line on images of commercial products that's no reason to disregard the "rule" entirely and blatantly flout it "because it's an image, like any other, and I have the right to rant if I want to".

NB that "rant" comment wasn't aimed at dodger specifically, I've seen a number of vendors get "unhappy" about their adverts being maligned or actually moved out of the forum. The "reasons" that they should be allowed to do so generally boil down to the same thing - "This is where more Poser users look so it's where I'm gonna post", although it's sometimes wrapped up in excuses like "I've always posted my images here, I don't see why I should change now that I'm selling the models". Which kinda misses the point of "commercial adverts" bein goff-topic, in that it's the commercial nature which is the change, and the reason for having a forum specifically to showcase products. Just my 2 cents. We wouldn't want this to be a 1-sided argument, with the only 2-sided arguments happening when an advert actually does get pulled.

The whole deal is a bit iffy...When I posted a few images of how great I think black eyes are and show them in an image...or I did oa couple with iw43D Harley Softail...that could be construed as a bit of advert as well..... What , exactly. is the mission of this forum ??? obviously to recieve help...and I would assume technique, program use, etc... Is it a forum to show off your artwork???? I would think so....especially if you are requesting technique assistance....but also as a place to show what you can do....or at least direct folks that are interested to a work you've just completed..if some people aren't interested, they don't need to go to the gallery to see it. Is it a forum to advertise your stuff? Probably not, but, I for one, am interested in what is coming up, ideas of new products, and what is being released. It is also essential for us to be able to correspond to the merchants to request items...a wish list of new products...what better place than here ??? I have to assume the Product Showcase forum is to showcase newly or about to be released products. Perhaps we need another forum where wips of new products can be shown...where we can then discuss with the creators suggestions for the product, etc...where we can request products....where vendors can see what folks want and work on that item....etc.... But my overall thought on this issue is that we should all just kinda float along here and quit being so anal on following every little whim and desire for conformity and regulation to tunnelvision. Allow this forum to follow its natural flow.... yes, there will probably be an occasional product shown..so what ??? We're basically all interested in the new stuff anyway, and if you're not, don't look at the thread....showing an occasional wip for a product is no different than DAZ, Curious, or anyone else being here....we need to relaxe and enjoy what we have without making it all full of rules and whining. Maybe we should be worrying more about our freedoms being eroded in this country and the fact our brothers and sisters are being killed in Iraq...and the homeless and hungrey all over the world..than about whose wip is being shown here.... This place in the world should be for enjoyment. (sorry to go out of bounds, but it just hit me like that all of a sudden)

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I'm with Spit. I like the Poser Technical forum BECAUSE it's not filled with a bunch of simple newbie questions. Not knocking being a newbie, mind you, we've all been there. But it's really nice to have a forum aimed at more advanced users. As for the Product Showcase, I argued strongly against that whole thing in the beginning, thought it should at least be voluntary like at PoserPros. But R'osity had a lot fewer merchants back then... Now? I'm forced to agree that the Poser forum is crowded enough without adding ads. Of course, some people are a little too uptight about that, jumping on you just for mentioning your products. But on the other hand, posting the old "product WIP" to get around the rules is getting out of hand. And I don't feel that DAZ products should get anymore leeway than any others. Christ, R'osity makes money from MY sales amd if I can't post ads here then DAZ people certainly shouldn't be able to, either. This is a rare case where I've been forced to change my mind and side with the PTB. several admins faint

Sorry I'll have to side with _dodger on this one. Seems any WIP progress get shuttled off to product showcase by default. Those kinds of post seem to be easier to spot so therefore come under fire more often. But in the true sense of fairness the other posts that should be delegated to other forums should have to be held to the same standard. Dave

Dave-So: To quote: "Maybe we should be worrying more about our freedoms being eroded in this country and the fact our brothers and sisters are being killed in Iraq...and the homeless and hungrey all over the world.. [snip] This place in the world should be for enjoyment. (sorry to go out of bounds, but it just hit me like that all of a sudden)" Agreed there are more important things in the world, but I'm not sure that we should argue that dodger shouldn't have started this thread in favour of advertisements just because there are more important issue in the world - or we'd never have any threads! Other than that, I haven't seen anyne arguing that (for example) the DAZ Millenium cat images should be moved - because (after all!) it's the potential buyers who have been askeing, in this forum, about the item. DAZ, technical (TRULY technical, involved stuff) and so on and so forth should all be adhered to in the first place. True the mods should ideally hold them all to the same level, but that'd be a lot easier if there was less policing required :) A failure to spot some transgressions doesn't (for me) make an argument that all transgressions should be llowed. Cliff

Yeah but it seems like the possible product postings are the ones being picked on. Dave

And threads about how cool the latest Lord of the Rings movie was should be in the OT Forum. And threads about how to get a website to work or how to use Flash should be in the HTML Forum. And threads about viruses and worms and hoaxes should be in the OT Forum. And threads about your image being stolen should be in the Copyright Forum. But... the Poser Forum is the most popular forum on this site. People post their messages here because it will get read. Mods don't seem to have the time to go through every thread and move it (even the ones with blatanly un-Poser-like subject lines). And if the point of the moving WIP posts into another forum is to prevent "commercials", what about all the "Come see my latest free thing" postings? Yes, the item is for free, but it's still a "come and get it" posting. Now, what if everyone did this? Sure, we would have access to tons of free things, but other posts would get buried even quicker under the barrage of "New free item here" "Come get my free item" "Look here for a free item" "New free thing at my site". Just because someone is offering an item form free shouldn't make them exempt from posting "commercials".

Messages get buried period. I fussed to a mod bout the WIP postings and was told that if they allowed them it would add 10 additional postings a day. Gee, 10? I still think if there could be some "flag" put on the posting for "commercial", then those that dont want to read the post dont have to. Seems the "commercials" got moved to their own forum all because enough people complained bout having to read all the posts only to find out that the product was up for sale and not "free". I dont recall that there was person holding a gun to your head making you read thru those postings when you didnt want to. I scan thru the postings before I even pick which ones I will read. Dave

So if there is a technical forum for Poser technical questions, and WIPS go in the Product showcase and some free things (add-ons and those offered at commercial sites). so what exctly does that leave for the Poser forum? If the Poser forum is for "learning and discussing" the software & content than some "technical" issues belong here.

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commercial adverts are, erm, commercial adverts. Freebie "come and get it" postings are distinct from commercials by not being commercial. Should the "come get a freebie" posts reach a point where, in the eye of TPTB, they are seriously disruptive to the forum then I imagine they'll discuss ways to crack down on it. The whole idea of having multiple forums and rules and regulations is to make R'osity work as smoothly as possible, and to be as good as it can be for the widest range of users they can manage. Copyright theft was in fact the topic of a recent "Look guys, post these things to the right forum will you? That's what it's there for" post/crackdown/whatever-you-want-to-call-it. No-one picks on commercial adverts, that I'm aware of, because they are commercial adverts. They're picked on (AFAICS) when there's been too many blatant ones and people are irritated by the OT posts. Because, yes, they're off topic.

Guess I dont see how they're "OT" if they're "poser-related". My biggest beef is in sending them to be posted in the "showcase" forum that kind of limits the traffic they get. Grocery stores are notorious for putting items out in the way so that customers will notice the item. If they always put it on the shelf in it's "assigned" place, what are the chances the customer is going to run across it? Pretty slim and nil. Just my 2 cents worth. Dave

Seems to me that lately there's been a lot of whining in these forums (myself included). Maybe everyone needs to take a chill-pill and get back to creating art. Isn't that why we're all here in the first place??

that's it in a nutshell, from the other way around. Many, many times I, my wife, or random strangers have been heard exclaiming in anguish that the "gosh-darned" supermarket has shuffled stuff around, hiding what we want to buy in amongst what they want to sell. It's all a matter of Point of View. Those who want to use the Poser forum to read hints and tips, wander mildly OT within a thread before getting back on topic, and generally be part of a "community" without having a bias towards making money from the community apparently don't want their "Looks what I just found! Cool!" and "Help! How do I simulate renderosity in Poser 4?" and so on and so forth drowned in commercial adverts. Most despicable (IMHO) ar eadverts which the advertisers claim are nothing of the sort - because they insult the intelligence of the reader. On the other side we have, as you've pointed out, merchants who obviously want their product placed as prominently as possible, where people will see it and possibly buy it. Regardless of whether those people want to be bombarded with commercial images or not. I'm not aware of r'Osity going overboard penalising WIP images, but I've also had a lot of connection issues lately (and even prior to that spend only a fraction of all time here) but personally I'd give more weight to the opinion of the readers than the merchants, if only because the merchants are coming across as aggresively pushy/money-grabbing by wanting THEIR stuff placed above what the forum readers want. At least, going soley by this thread's title it seems that commercial adverts are unpopular!

Could be worse. The commercial adverts could've been pop-up windows. At least as a thread they can be skipped over if you wanted. dave

I would like to show WIPs here and stuff but right now I sort of have to play it vague. If you post a WIP in the Product Showcase for the most part it is looked at by a few that know you and that is it. Here, if you are trying to get feedback, it happens a lot more. Product showcase is for done stuff that is in the stores soon and people are more afraid to say anything critical in there than they are here.

Dave you yourself used the term "notorious". I'm not convinced that any notorious behaviour is a good thing(TM). For them to be pop-ups would, I suspect, require Renderosity to approve of them. anyway - popups can just be closed, right?

Maybe a "WIP & Product Requests" as a new forum is a better idea than we've been imaginging to date? Or maybe "WIP" banners could be included amongst the other advertising banners that we're forced to have at the top of our web browsers? Because - surely there's a better answer than the "We don't want to see all that stuff" / "We don't care, we want to show to the maximum no. of viewers regardless of what they think they want" roundabout :)

I'm afraid you're being rather naive if you think that would ever happen. Ok, I'll rephrase. It's a job for them to decide, not you or I. These are not Dodger's forums, nor are they Netherworks' forums, they are here for everyone to participate in. We are all guests here and we all have opinions-a-plenty, but ultimately it's the job of the moderators to "moderate".

"I still think if there could be some "flag" put on the posting for "commercial", then those that dont want to read the post dont have to." I suggested the same thing over and over when the Product Showcase was first introduced, but it never happened.

It's better to have a "flag" to check than have to decide "Now which forum should this belong in?" I belong to one forum that when a post gets moved to another forum, the thread is still there in the wrong forum, but has a line saying to which forum it was moved. Seems like our pat answer seems to be to create yet another forum for any old miniscule difference. dave

Dave-So said: Maybe we should be worrying more about our freedoms being eroded in this country and the fact our brothers and sisters are being killed in Iraq...and the homeless and hungry all over the world..than about whose wip is being shown here....This place in the world should be for enjoyment. Now this 'IS' important!!

PapaBlueMArtin:- Eek, I goofed. Thanks for that info (Wishing Well) as I'd completely missed it - tho to be honest it's not something I'd be likely to look for :) As for Dr Geep, I think he's probably a prime example of the difference between great, useful information (what he generally does, and superbly too!) and the really technical deep soul-searching technical queries that belong (IMHO) in the technical forum. As for the mods - I pity them. Mods and Ops and Sysops and the like the world over are under-valued and attacked from all sides, but the vast majority of them (especially the ones that last more than a week) aren't power-hungfry fiends that want to exercise the power for the hell of it. Most of them want to do the minimum work necessary. If they feel that they have to move/kill a thread (or whatever) then not only is that work (however little) but also preparing for the barrage to come is no small deal. So I suspect that in general that they not to make decisions lightly, or to be biased.

OK - Lets get down to the basics :) What DO YOU as a Member of the Poser Forum Want to see in the Poser Forum? 1. Do you want Poser Technical questions? 2. Do you want Poser "How 2's" [mini tutorials] 3. Do you want to be able to ask a question when having a problem with your Poser products and be able to get a somewhat quick answer? 4. Do you want to see Merchant's works in progress? 5. Do you want to have Off Topic subjects allowed [as in so and so just had a baby, or the weather is nasty here how is it in your area, or does anyone know if a specific member is ill? 6. Do you want to see Copyright issues that deal with Poser Images? 7. Do you wish to post something special you did, or an award you received with your Poser Images? 8. Do you want to know when Outside Venders are having sales [as in the Daz Club] 9. Do you want to have online Lectures by Poser Professionals in the Poser Chat Channel? 10. Do you want us to continue with the Moderator Gallery Picks of the Week? 11. Do you want to know what Poser Free Items are available? 12. Do you just want to Chat about whatever, be it Poser or non Poser? 13. Do you want to view Member's works in progress? 14. Do you want to know what Poser tutorials members have posted? 15. Do you want to be able to post Pro and Con threads like this one - As long as they are Poser Related Issues? Let us know what You the Poser Forum Community wants :) Thanks so much for your constructive input. ladynimue

Yes 2) Yes 3) Yes 4) Only if they have a problem they want help fixing or sincerely want advice. 5) Only in the case of major life events. I'm not interested in the weather, but I am interested if someone had a baby or is seriously ill. 6) Yes. 7) Yes. 8) Yes, if posted by members not affiliated with that outside vender as just a friendly "heads up!" I don't want it used as an excuse to advertise. 9) That would be really cool. 10) Yes 11) Yes. Major reason I come to Renderosity's instead of other Poser forums. 12) No. There are plenty of other places to do that. 13) Only if they have a problem or sincerely want advice/critique. 14) Yes. 15) Yes.

Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. No, if it has no other content than that. 5. Yes 6. No 7. Yes 8. No 9. indifferent 10. indifferent 11. Yes 12. No 13. Yes 14. Yes 15. Yes

Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. No 5. Only if someone is ill or along those lines 6. No 7. Yes 8. No 9. Yes 10. Sure 11. Yes 12. No 13. Yes, if it's help or critique related. 14. Yes 15. Yes

A resounding YES to all except 6. The discussions get too heated and should be in the copyright forum.

This is great input - Thanks so much for taking the time to post your answers, we would like to hear from everyone on this if possible. ladynimue

I don't so much mind Poser Technical questions and Howtos. I myself have posted several howtos (reflection mapping and such) back before I saw the segregative activities hit full effect. But I do want fairness. If the Product Showcase exists as a place to move anything that has anything to do with a work that is going to be or is being sold when posted by the merchant themselves, then yes, I want to see Technical things moved to the technical forum and OT posts moved to the OT forum because that's wha those forums are there for. As to number 3, well, to be honest, it's generally the other way around. I'm usually one of the ones giving the answer, not asking, so that one doen't really apply to me. Though, on that note, we should have a Poser Troubleshooting FAQ, even just as a static document in the backroom, and REALLY PROMINENT links to it, so that when someone does post the inevitable 'I lost my document window' a moderator can kindly point them to the REALLY BLATANT LINK to the FAQ and tell them to see question #1 and quietly delete their post. With some notification that questions that are in the FAQ will be removed, thread and all, that's perfectly fair. I want to see EVERYONE'S works in progress, and I want to be able to show my works in progress whether it be something I can and will sell or not. I don't want my WIPs discriminated against because they will be or may be sold at some point. 5. Do you want to have Off Topic subjects allowed [as in so and so just had a baby, or the weather is nasty here how is it in your area, or does anyone know if a specific member is ill? Again, I don't mind Off Topic posts not being moved if the same even-handed moderation is used for WIPs. Notice I'm not going over 'Merchant WIPs' or 'Product WIPs'... I'm saying WIPs in general because I, for one, do not see a distinction between art based on whether or not it's profitable. 6. Do you want to see Copyright issues that deal with Poser Images? I'd generally rather not see copyright issues. Seeing copyright issues that deal with specific poser images and such -- i.e. 'Key, Ladynimue, I saw your recent picture on a T-shirt at the mall. Are you selling T-shirts of that?' doesn't bother me, but I get rather fed up with the 'Attention everyone who bought Stoner Eyes, it's a ripoff by footballcoach of Evilheart's Demon Eyes' messages. I certainly wish to post special things I've done and awards I've received with my Poser images or creations. One thing I'm seeing as a distinction being made that shouldn't be... If you load up three things you bought, two things that came with Poser, and four things you got in Free Stuff and arrange them to make a picture or simply work out a matching theme for them even, it's art. I'm in no way saying it's not, even though that's been suggested of Poser artists. There have been comparisons between things like arranging painted action figures and taking a polaroid. People have taken offence to this. Thing is, I don't think those are necessarily bad coparisons, either.... but I think that arranging action figures and taking a polaroid counts as art. Making such look good REALLY counts as art. But then there is no way that the tricks I've done with Yoroi (Japanese armour) in making it to look like it has a texture* even around the edges, or the vectoral sculpting that goes into them, or the paint jobs I've given such, or the accessories I've built to go along with by any means are any less art because I'm going to sell it. Announcements of sales, ads specifically geared towards selling a specific product (i.e., Buy this ray gun now at my store), and so on belong in the Product Showcase forum. Thing like what several of us were doing by giving sneak peeks of M3 that everyone kinda wanted to see (even people who complained in many cases) and at the same time being able to show off what we were creating -- NOT tout our wares (which weren't even wares yet, and in my case is still at the 'almost there' stage) -- not only shold be allowed here, they belong here. Frankly, WIPs do not belong in the Product Showcase forum because it's for things that are for sale not things that people are making. I don't even know what you mean by the online lectures thing, so I doubt if t concerns me much. I've never even noticed any moderator gallery picks of the week, nor do I know what those are, so I doubt if, at least in my case as repreentative, they're very effective, whatever hey are. Of course I want to know what Poser Free items are available, though I think Renderosity is shooting itself in the foot by segeregating those from themarketplace, as they [free stuff] are the biggest draw of this website. I do not believe that a price tag of $0.00 in any way distinguishes a different level of commerciality than a price tag of $0.01 or or $1.00 or $10.00 or $100.00. Even if a person id giving something away completely out of the goodness of their heart (and many aren't -- some have ads on their sites, some use them to draw attention to their not-free-stuff, and some simply provide them as support items for their not-free-stuff, requiring the merchandise first), they're still being commercial, drawing (intentionally or not) traffic and attention away from other things, and so on. Zero-dollar-stuff is the same as any other merchandise, just with a lower price tag and no guaranty at all. I'd like to see the Poser forum generally deal with Poser stuff. Works in progress (merchandise or not), links to tuts, and so on are all fair game as far as I'm concerned, but as soon as anyone starts discriminating against any portion thereof then such segeregation and discrimination should be applied evenly and fairly across the board. Some people hate to see anything that might someday be be for sale. Some people hate to see any technical questions. Some people hate to see copyright violation notices. Some people hate to see fluffy toonimals and sad attampts at humour. Some people hate to see nudity. Some people don't want to see violence. Some peole don't want to see TV related stuff. Some people don't want to see movie stuff. SOme people don't want to see the blood sweat and tears someone has put into creating the virtual representation of their pouty-lipped simpering dream girl. As soon as a coalition is formed to relegate any of these things to smoe backwaters of the site, then such segeregation should be applied across the board. ANY subject which enough people don't want to see ('enough' being one of those things for later debates, I suppose) should be relegated to its own little shantytown somewhere on the site, or at the very least this should be done when specific categtories DO in fact already exist.

Quinlor, Nether... you've both said you don't want to see merchants' works in progress, but you do want to see members' works in progress (Nether, with caveats). I'm a member. See, that's exactly what I'm saying Ladynimue... The end goal of my work should not have anything to do with whether I can post it or not. To do so is discrimination.

Points well taken dodger, thank you for your input- I should rephrase #13 to: Any works in Progress :) ladynimue

11. Do you want to know what Poser Free Items are available? Giving a bit more thought to this... if Free Stuff promos were also forced into the Product Showcase forum, that might alleviate the frustration many merchants (I still have the ethical argument, but many do not) feel in the thought that the PS forum is a 'Ghetto'. If postings of Free Stuff were also forced there and the description said so (and the Poser Forum said to go look there for them now) it might draw a lot more traffic into that forum.

"If postings of Free Stuff were also forced there and the description said so (and the Poser Forum said to go look there for them now) it might draw a lot more traffic into that forum." Now THAT'S a good idea! Of course, there'll be a lot of griping about free stuff providers being mistreated, blah blah blah. But it would certainly increase traffic to the Showcase. And it really makes sense: if you're looking for something, free or otherwise, you'd have one forum to browse rather than two.

Excellent constructive comments everyone - thanks again for your input! ladynimue

don't care 2. yes 3. yes 4. no 5. don't care 6. don't care 7. yes 8. no 9. don't care 10. not really/don't care 11. yes 12. yes 13. sometimes 14. sometimes 15. sure, why not? Personally, I really don't care about the "mod picks" and "copyright issues" postings. Those are just a waste of my time since I have no interest in them, BUT I do acknowledge that they are of interest to other members so it's no big deal if they post 'em here, I can skip over them. On the other hand, I remember when adverts were allowed in here and there were times when I would have to scroll through almost 3 pages to get to a posting that WASN'T an advertisement, so please, do NOT allow them back in here without at LEAST a tag required so that we can skip over them without being drawn in by the misleading subject headers that are so commonly used. When I want to know what's "new" in the marketplace, I gasp actually go to the marketplace and hit the "what's new" button. I know, it's a radical concept, but hey, whatcha gonna do? If I need more info after that, I look in the showcase forum or gallery. I get enough advertising shoved in my face with those stupid banner ads at the top of the page, I don't want it here in the forum as well. And yes, I am a merchant (but just barely), but I'm first and foremost a customer and believe me, the BEST way to wind up on my "do not buy" list is to shove your product in my face or trick me into viewing an advertisement by making it look like a "normal" post. Kate (who sends unsolicited snail mail advertising back to the sender in the convenient postage paid envelope along with as much of the contents of her shredder that will fit)

Dodger, I can honestly see some of your points about the WIP type posts in the Poser forum and perhaps you're right and there shouldn't be a distinction between freebies or sale items. And granted, you appear to just have wanted to show off what you've been working on. Fair enough. However, then merchant related posts should be allowed in the Poser forum. I can easily see a lot of WIP posts being started for upcoming products. If that's ok with the powers-that-be, that's fine with me. I'm a merchant also, and I'd also like to have the extra exposure by showing off what I'm doing now. The answers I posted to ladynimue's inquiry were what I thought - if categories are to be used. So, whatever the mods and admins decide, I'll go with. I can easily not click on posts that I'm not interested in - so, it's a non-issue for me there. But, I don't want to be discriminated against either if I post my WIPs.

I'd be OK with putting freebie threads in the Product Showcase forum, as long as it was clear (like, a header at the top) and consistent. I try to make mine worthy of being considered a "product". One with a really good price. ^_~

First of all, until the "lead-in" to this forum gets modified, it would appear that as long as a message posted in here relates in any way to Poser-related information (meaning, also, information that "Poser people" might be interested in), the mods will seem to be a bit hypocritical moving a lot of the examples that were given to another forum. After all, it does say: "Poser (75 new messages) [Hide this Forum] Moderators: Lyrra, kbennett, ladynimue Post your Poser related messages here" Why create specific forums for specific topics if it's not going to be enforced? Why are some OT threads left in here when others are moved? I think everyone one knows where to go look for the latest items for sale and the latest ones for free. It's my understanding the "Free Repository" here is one of the big attractions to R'City. How would anyone EVER decide if advertising is going on in a thread (e.g., A known salesperson posts a picture/render that just happens to have a new model of some type in it. No mention of selling it. No mention of 'Do you think this will sell?' Just a render. Then others see it and comment on and and then someone asks if it's going to be sold. Perhaps an innocent question or perhaps a friend 'helping' their salesperson friend. Then, the salesperson gets to reply, 'Yes, I think I am, now that I've had time to think about it.' ... or many variations thereof.) Removing various types of postings to this forum because it makes people have to scroll and go through several pages of stuff just to see the info they expect to see in this forum doesn't save time for the people who want to see WIP, new items being developed for the MP, copyright information, etc. IF they THEN have to separately "march" to each of those forums seeking it (which in turn takes time). Though I think Dodger is very smart, very witty, (having seen a lot of his discussions here and there), and very talented, HIS post, arguably, should have gone in the "Improvement" forum. But, refer to my first remark. Or not. OK, I'm done.

Ok....here goes: 1. Depends on "how technical" 2. yes 3. yes 4. sure....why not 5. no 6. hmmmmm....not sure it does much good 7. maybe 8. yes 9. sure 10. what's that? 11. sure 12. no 13. yes 14. yes 15. yes Can I leave now?

So, like, KateTheShrew was like: 'When I want to know what's "new" in the marketplace, I gasp actually go to the marketplace and hit the "what's new" button. I know, it's a radical concept, but hey, whatcha gonna do?' That doesn't show you anything but what's on Renderosity. It doesn't who you what's new at DAZ. It doesn't show you what's new at RDNA. It doesn't show you what's new at 3DCommune. It doesn't show you what's new at any other site. Sure, you could go to those sites to see what's new, but things aren't going to be represented in a fair comparison basis in a single forum. Moreover, what about when a new site starts up? You're not going to even know about the site. One of the things about Renderosity that is nice (as opposed to places which I won't mention cough3DComnCough that have done some very insecure appearing things like insisting that no off-site products be advertised, Renderosity has been nice and allowed other brokerages to tout their wares in the PS forum here. KateTheShrew, I respect you on a lot of levels, but this whole 'I'm glad the merchants can't post their WIPs here so I don't have to see them, and if I want to see new things I'll look in the marketplace' argument is just bullshit. It's an example of the sort of segregation I'm talking about in pure form. Chuck, you may be right, though the subject at hand does very specifically relate to this forum and not other forums. It's about what should be posted here and thus of interest to those who post here and read here. One other thing to note, to all... Segregation is not the sort of matter that should be decided by a case of 'Majority Rules'. If it were, there'd still be four bathrooms in the establishments that even allowed blacks. There'd stil be sections on the bus, and Rosa Parks would have died in jail unremembered. The Chinese would only be allowed to live in Chinatown, and the gutterpunks would not be allowed by law to spange on the street or even hang out because people don't like the looks of 'em. Wait -- hang on -- that last one is true. When you let people vote themselves bread and circuses, they will -- and they'll vote that someone of a different 'class' (which is really what we merchants are) can't have them. As a result, I'm not appealing to a democratic majority. I'd guess that the democratic majority would be perfectly happy to discriminate against my art because I'm going to sell it and not allow me to show off my WIPs -- any of them because right now I have to spend ALL of my time creating things that will bring in money, and I don't have much time to make things that won't, or will even cost me money to host. I'm appealing directly to the sense of justice of the powers that be here to make a decision with fairness in mind. That means if WIPs by merchants that are intended to be sold when they are done aren't allowed, then WIPs by non-merchants shouldn't be, either. I'd like to categorise this to content creation... characters, textures, pose sets, props, and so on... but in all fairness, it should be applied to everything, even pictures, as ANY of us could at any time decide one of our works was good enough to sell and put it up on Zazzle or Cafe Press or get prints made to sell at a convention. That's a merchant WIP when that happens, even retroactively.

Some things that might make a difference, at least in concept (I'm not suggesting that all or any of these be done, but they are simply thoughts): 1) Require a tag for anything that is advertising. Even if the coders don't want to implement a change to the forum, make it a requirement that any subjects advertising anything at all begin with '[AD]' in the subject line. Likewise '[TS]' ('Tech Support'), '[TT]' ('Tech Tips' or' Too Technical') and '[OT]' tags could be mandatory and threads which contain said content and do not have them can be deleted or modified to have them as need be. You could even stack the tags -- for instance, if I were to post a picture of my Samurai Armour WIP and explain how I did the faux-bumpiness that actually wraps around instead of going flat on the edge, I would begin the subject with '[AD][TT]'. 2) Implement ignore-by-user capability. This has been a big suggestion here by me anyway. Make it so you can ignore an individual -- any threads they start will be hidden and any messages in other threads will be marked 'Ignored' and not displayed. Not only would this help stop a lot of flamewars when people who consistently piss other people off can be shunned on an individual basis, but if someone flooded the Pose forum with lots of ads, you could ignore them and never see their posts rather than punishing an entire socioeconomic class. 3) Simply make the rule that no one is allowed to mention price and/or location of sale of any WIP that is intended to be sold. People could ask, but responses would have to be IMs as you could not post the answer. This way I could very simply post my M3 Samurai and not say a word that it was going to be for sale at DAZ or that it was going to cost however much. Note that in my posts I don't believe I did that (if I did it was in response to a question). I'm not going back to check right now, but this is further underscored by the fact that Clint actually IMed me asking where I was planning to sell it, and I had to tell him that by contract I had to offer it to DAZ first, and that I thought it was likely to go in there.

"Chuck, you may be right, though the subject at hand does very specifically relate to this forum and not other forums. It's about what should be posted here and thus of interest to those who post here and read here." True, Dodger. The reason I said 'arguably'. One COULD argue that getting the forums straigtened out is a Community Improvement idea. One that should be argued/discussed with admins in the approach of improving the community (i.e., "governing the forums" with rules). As I said at the beginning of my post, as it stands now, just about anything that has the word, Poser, in its message can be posted here by virtue of the description of the forum. So, you didn't "break" any rules. Besides, as I ALSO said, I would refrain from debating the issue into any detail with you as I have already given you credit for being quite intelligent. And, I'm not upset. I can envision "our" discussion happening quite nicely across the table from each other with two beers sitting between us...grin...assuming you imbibed in the first place.

assuming you imbibed in the first place No, afraid you'll have to imbibe in th first place. 'll imbibe in the second place. If you have a head start I have a better chance B^) I was just agreeing with you, really. See, my goal isn't to get off-topic posts moved out completely, it's to have such posts be treated fairly -- and I'm coming from a point of view where I don't see any of the above as really being off-topic, because it's a cascade. Poser Tech is a subcategory of Poser. Product Showcase isn't, but most of the content is. A dissertation on reflection maps or a rant at Poser in general about why it will allow me to load two props from a figureResFile/geomHandlerGeom style load, but it won't save them to a file properly afterwards (just hit that one, grr), to me, is certainly Poser content. A show-off of one's latest costume for a Millenium Person is also Poser content. For sale or not. And, as much as I hate to admit it, that creepy looking toonimal fish is also poser content. I think it should all be welcome or, if sorting is gonna be mandatory, then it should all be pigeonholed.

Dodger, I have to say that the respect is mutual, but on this issue I'm afraid we're going to disagree on some points. You are absolutely correct about the limitations of the marketplace "what's new" and I'm in total agreement that this method will only show you what's new at each individual site. I have always thought that a mandatory "AD" tag would be perfectly acceptable. It would make it much easier to scroll through and only look at ads on the days when one has the time to spare. But, the PTB didn't go that direction. If they had, I daresay things would be much easier to deal with as the mods would only have to activate a forgotten tag rather than move entire threads and the community itself wouldn't be in such an uproar. I don't like advertising. I'm inundated with it in my daily life, and quite frankly, I'm sick to death of it. That's why I want some way to identify it BEFORE I open a post, so I can avoid it but those who want to see it can do so. I know which places I like to shop, I know what their upload schedules are and I arrange my shopping accordingly. As for new sites, word will get out, one way or another, I'm not worried about that. Somewhere there is a middle ground that will work for pretty much everyone. We just haven't found it yet. You want to bring ads back into the forum? Fine. No problem. Just give me a tag so I can skip it if I want. But if you're not going to give me the option of knowing beforehand that a post is an ad, then I'm gonna bitch and moan until you do. Fair enough? :) Kate (who has turned into a cranky, grouchy old biddy lately and hopes she'll outgrow this phase really soon)

Absolutely not. Again, if the topic is the Poser Forum, what does having a baby or the weather have to do with Poser? I know people like to be social, but isn't that what the other forums are for? Create a "Off-Topic Forum" for these kinds of general posts. Oh, wait, there already is one. Soon, Poser-related threads get buried under "my new baby", "hot weather here", "did you see that movie", "CD's are unreliable" and so on. 6. Um, no, this is what the Copyright Forum is for. 8. Absolutely not. If Renderosity Merchants can't post ads (which, in turn, would sell items here, which would then make money for the site), why should outside vendors be allowed to post ads? Ah... a loophole! If I sell something at my site, can I advertise in the Poser Forum, even though that item may also be for sale here? Technically, the post is for an "outside vendor". hehehe. cool. I may try that. Look for my posting soon.

Surely the point is scale and blatancy - if the Forum starts drowning in "nippy today, isn't it" or "lookit, ain't this cool - why yes, at DAZ in three weeks" threads clamp down, if it's minor and not prompting complaints then relax. The mods may be pretty zombified by day's end, but they aren't robots. Basically, my answers to LadyNumue's questions would be yes to all, but in moderation for 5, 6, 8, extreme moderation for 12 (unless it takes off in a nice way) and some moderation on 4 (depending on how "addy" it is)

Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes 4. Yes, though totally done shots sould be in the Product Showcase. 5. Yes and no. I would like to see them be able to be asked but then linked (not moved) to the OT forum. That way they get notice but aren't cluttering the forum. 6. Once again, link and lock. 7. Yes 8. No 9. Sure, A good option though I might not look 10. Yes 11. Yes 12. No 13. Yes 14. Yes 15. Yes

yes 2. yes 3. yes 4. yes, but in a WIP forum 5. No 6. No, not in this forum 7. No 8. In the showcase forum 9. yes 10. yes 11. yes 12. only poser related 13. only in a WIP forum 14. yes 15. yes

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"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss

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I have no problem with a WIP forum. That would not be segregation, just seperation, which is different. Having a WIP forum for all WIPs regardless of intended price tag, if any, would seperate on the basis of content, not segregate on the basis of economic intent. Kate, I understand your point completely. I'm not in favour of ads in here, either. I think we're not seeing eye to eye on what an ad is, however. I think that if a work in progress is shown without any marketing, without any 'see this soon at DAZ/RDNA/RMP/3DCommune/Renderotica/3DCC/PoserPros/whateverosity' rubbish or 'Only $12.99, due to be releaased soon!' or any fo that crap... if such a WIP is done AS a WIP and not as a marketing ploy (it doesn't take Einstein to figure out the difference), then it's not an ad. I posted a WIP of my M3 Samurai in here, and along with all the other people who posted WIPs, some of which were blatantly or subtly ads, many of which were not, we all got the big hook from stage left for it, either literally or at least figuratively. That was bullshit. Sure, the ones that were blatantly ads should have been moved, though again the product showcase, which showcases products that are for sale and complete, is not really the right forum for a WIP either, however commercial-sounding... still... You see on TV all the time where entertainment news covers the making of a movie in progress. There are commercials between bits of the shows. The shows are not infomercials. The movie will not be free when it comes out, and if they're covering it at all will probably make a fair amount of money, but it's still not an ad. It's coverage. Sure, the filmmakers rarely complain, and it is publicity and no one will deny that, but it's also not just a big long trailer for the movie. Not that when they do this if the trailer is out on TV it's usually played during the bit, as a commercial. Seperately. Anyway... Illusions, I can still see right up your nose. Might want to adjust the xrot forward a little bit on that.

...if such a WIP is done AS a WIP and not as a marketing ploy (it doesn't take Einstein to figure out the difference), then it's not an ad. Dodger, I won't speculate on your intentions (so please don't take it that way), but that, in a nutshell IS the problem of WIPs being posted in here. If we just use your critera listed above to determine wether it's an 'ad' or not (the only other option is to speculate on their intentions), then there WILL be a ton of new messages here every day (whoever came up with the figure '10' was probably way off base). You see, there's one big difference between the 'advertising' messages (that you feel like are being too heavily scrutinized) and the rest of the 'potentially should be in the technical/OT/hardware/whatever forums' type messages... and that is that there are 1111+ venders (and growing daily) 'just waiting' to post a bunch of 'WIP' images here if they thought they were allowed to. In the end, maybe 80-90% of those (if not higher) would ultimately be to: - build interest in the product - get maximum exposure to the future commercial product - in other words - Advertise the product. ...regardless of how thinly veiled the advertisment was (and I'd submit that it doesn't take an Einstein (or a marketing genious) to figure THAT out ;). Like you, I also have no problem with a WIP forum and that may be the best way to handle this. There may be other ways too, I'm just not comfortable with your segregation/discrimination/singled out/etc. argument, because it doesn't take into account the realities of the differences between the topics that should or shouldn't be allowed here... Sure, I see some threads here that should technically be in other forums, but the number of 'how do I make a MAT file' type threads are pretty managable compared to (what would be) the influx of "this is a WIP, not really advertising, really" type threads that would be added. Just some food for thought.

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i think that in many ways, the issue isn't just advertising. i'm just as uninterested in turning the forum into a gallery as i am it becoming a home for ads. WIP being posted to a forum, not a gallery, should mean you have a question and require a response. if you do not want a discussion, do not post it to a discussion board. i believe this forum should be about an exchange of ideas, not promotion. yes, i think it should be flexible. but i also think that blatant self interest shouldn't rule this forum. i think a lot of the daz millenium previews have been understood, through people's experience with daz, to be chances to comment on their figures and perhaps change them before they come out. i say this based on threads in which previews threaded into actual discussions and requests. if that is not the intention of the previews (to actually do something with the response), then i think they should be in the product showcase. i do not think that the prestige of the seller or the possible universality of the product should be a mitigating factor. that's unfair. i'd also have to say that poser is a program, not the content meant to be used in it. if this were going to only be about poser and its functionality, then actually i think technical questions about the program are some of the only topics that should be here. the only time discussion of anybody's products (free or commercial) should be involved in a highly regulated forum would, in my opinion, be when discussing how they functioned in poser (e.g., how to load textures, how to conform it properly, etc.). not how they looked, not aren't they great meshes/textures/lights/etc., but how do they work in poser. that said, i don't think this forum will ever be locked down like that. and i wouldn't want it to be. that's just my opinion, i realize. and i think that the forum should meet the needs of community members, content creators included. but if this forum becomes a giant spam list, not only will i stop frequenting it, i bet others will too. i'm glad that you're raising your voice, _dodger, because i think dialogue is good. i also don't think there is a hard and fast solution. i don't think it's as simple as, well, we come up with a rule and there will be only black or white and no grey. oh, and i do frequent the product showcase. i've been surprised at how few people seem to post previews there. but if no one else is going, then there does need to be a way to see upcoming products. but i do disagree with you. i don't see a validity in pure advertisements being a topic of any discussion. i do think if you or ghostofmacbeth want feedback, yeah, this is a perfect place. but i don't think it should be along the lines of a "do you think i look fat in this dress" question where what is really sought is affirmation. if what you want is a showcase, make a showcase. i do think it should be a wip forum i would still expect to be about feedback and not broadcasting. and, please. this is not a case of "segregation." you're not being kicked out, your inappropriate postings are. i can't go to the bathroom in middle of a diner because of dr. king and malcolm x and countless others, i can go in and eat like everyone else. if i'm too loud, or obnoxious, or offensive, i can be kicked out on the basis of my behaviour. and they can even get the cops to help them. if all advertising posts are pulled, and all non-commercial aren't, that's perfectly fair. it's not on the basis of who you are or something irrelevant. it's a decision based on content, purpose and the established values of the community, which is the only way to make rules about conduct that i know of. segregation wasn't just found "unfair" it was found "unconstitutional," with the constitution standing as the basis for the national values and laws. segregation was found by the supreme court to be in conflict with those values. i have nothing against you making a case for advertising being a core value, but disagreeing with it doesn't make me "prejudiced." i personally see the basic or core value of this forum to be to provide support for poser users in the form of an exchange of ideas. while you are a poser user, allowing you and everyone else to flood this forum with advertisements seems out of sync with that core value. allowing you to advertise is not providing you support, it's providing you a service. my responses to the questions... 1. Yes, of course. I think a tech forum should involve non Poser technical questions. If this isn't where to ask Poser tech questions (under Software Forum: Poser), what is supposed to go here? 2. Definitely. Without the above two, I don't see a reason to come here. 3. Yes. Since this would be how the product functions in Poser, I think it would be relevant. 4. Only if they honestly want feedback and discussion, and are not just posting a "teaser". 5. Well, I'm unsure. I believe at one point _dodger himself posted about how he was really ill here, and I thought the response was both heartening (I hope he did too) and good for the community. For this to be a community, personal information has to be exchanged. It's not just "Off Topic." Maybe a Community forum? I think there definitely needs to be leeway for people to comfortably cohere. 6. Nope, because they pertain to every image, and therefore should be centralized. 7. Not here, because that's not relevant to me as a Poser user. I'd group it with 5. 8. Not at all. 9. Definitely 10. Yes. So far it's been the main way I've seen Poser used for something besides pinups. 11. No need- that's what freestuff is for, right? Or there could be a Freestuff forum. 12. No opinion, but probably not. Isn't that what ICQ, Yahoo, MS Messenger, and AIM are for? 13. Yes, but not here. - I thought that was what the Product Showcase was for. 14. Yes. 15. Oh, definitely. Discussion is good for a community.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12375&Form.ShowMessage=1396248

I've posted a message about new forums in the Community Ideas forum. Any discussion about new forums should go there.

Here's what I think. I frequent different forums, WIP, showcase, tech, but not all the time. I tend to skip all the "ad" like announcements in this forum, not because I am not interested, but because there are so many other messages to go thru. I am only interested in ads when I am in a buying mood (I spend about $100/mon), and then I'd roam around then showcase forum or hit the marketplace looking for sales. So if some merchants prefers to put their product announcements here, he/she might have lost a customer because of my attendance habit.

Software: Daz Studio 4.15, Photoshop CC, Zbrush 2022, Blender 3.3, Silo 2.3, Filter Forge 4. Marvelous Designer 7

Hardware: self built Intel Core i7 8086K, 64GB RAM, RTX 3090 .

"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss

"A critic is a legless man who teaches running." ~ Channing Pollock

My Gallery My Other Gallery

WOW this topic has had me looking all over the site at Forums and galleries I never even had bothered to notioce existed!! LOL For example did you know trhere was a Work in Progress Gallery?

I think there should be a forum specificaly for complaints. These compaint threads get much too long and tend to flood forum.

There used to be one but - people complained ;).

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12375&Form.ShowMessage=1396248

How about rather than complaints, offer constructive suggestions in the Community Ideas forum...

did you know trhere was a Work in Progress Gallery Yup. It's the one I post to most often, since I won't put an unfinished thing intheProduct Showcase or Poser forum. Again, I'm fine with the idea of fair and even speration where all works in progress, price tag or not, will be put in a single loction. And that would get even more of the flooding WIPs out of this forum. Now, there's something else I'm wondering here... this concept spreads beyond just this forum. There are other forums which it's questionable how or what sort of things should go in them along these lines. For instance, There's a Max forum. I make all my stuff in Max. Should I or should I not post things related to the things I'm building in the Max forum? A lot of the time when I make things I'm trying to go for a specific character appearance. Should I or should I not post things related to the character or costume or figure I'm developing to the Character Creators forum? Of course, it should be fine for me to post things that I'm planning on selling here to the Merchants' forum. To claim that merchandise was off topic in the merchants' forum would be silly. Do we make such a silly claim? Finally, there's a Wishing Well forum. Am I allowed to say 'I wish there were samurai armour for Mike 3 -- Oh, wait, here's some!' in there? 2/3 of the posts in there deal with things for sale, after all. Yes, I think a WIP forum would be our best bet. Despite people havng a nagative repsonse to the idea, I do still affirm that deciding whether something is an ad or not being based on whether the person in question plans to sell it eventually is unfair and shows prejudice. If I show a picture of a hamburger, it may make you hungry or revolted, it may make you want a hamburger, and so on. Unless I tell you it's a Wendy's double stack for ninety nine cents, I haven't advertised it because you know nothing about where to buy it, how much it will be, or anything. It may be marketing. I won't deny it can be considered marketing, but advertising is only a subset or marketing, which involves lots of other things like market research ('what kind of things do you al want to see for Mike 3?'), intercorporate activities ('how far have we come in the last year?'), and even creating a public image that people will remember in some way. What? Yeah, every time a merchant posts anything however unrelated in this forum at all they are marketing. Not advertising, but marketing, for better or for worse (and usually for better). Every post I make comes with a link to my artist page with the top three products from my store that I want to sell shown on it. The more of a friend or nuisance I make of myself, the more likely someone is to follow that link and then they might just think 'Oooh, a Robot!' Every time any merchant posts a 'how to do this' or answers a 'how do I do this?' question they are selling themselves with a 'Go see my stuff, I am good at this'. Assuming they are right. Hell, even showing personality in this forum counts as marketing of a sort. Microsoft and Intel want you to think they are family-friendly politically correct companies, so every time you reinstall their crap operating system you get to see people of African descent with their grandchildren, pretty Asian girls looking like corporate higher-ups, and so on and so forth, and that's on purpose not to sell you the crap operating system which you alreadyhave (and presumably, since you're reinstalling for the 47th time, are already fed up with), but to make you think 'gee, they aren't a bunch of friendless, coldhearted cutthroat bigots'. Me, I have a sort of reputation for being like the Harlan Ellison of the Poser world. Unable and unwilling to keep my mouth shut when I feel injustice has occured, unswerving dedication to my art, and an unwillingness to sacrifice quality for sales and speed. An ornery two-fisted loudmouth who's nonetheless good at what he does and gets away with it because of that. Impossible to work with but perfect to drink with as long as you don't mind a little bit of trouble. And far too honest for most people's comfort, which is seen as tactless by half and admirably succinct by the other half. Harlan Ellison, right? Something like that anyway. And even that, though it's not any sort of an intentional construal of myself, is marketing ebcause it creates a persona (be that persona truth or glamour) that people identify with or react to which creates publicity and notice. Saying that a merchant can't do anythg that is in any way marketing in here means you have to ban them from posting.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Unpopular but it needs to be pointed out (riposte)