I was talking to a friend about the recent rosity threads dealing with CD reliablity. He thought it was all B.S. until he found this article on a site he visits. He emailed this to me today. BEGIN QUOTE **CD-Recordable discs unreadable in less than two years Posted by Dennis on 19 August 2003 - 14:33 - Source: PC-Active** The Dutch PC-Active magazine has done an extensive CD-R quality test. For the test the magazine has taken a look at the readability of discs, thirty different CD-R brands, that were recorded twenty months ago. The results were quite shocking as a lot of the discs simply couldn't be read anymore: Roughly translated from Dutch: The tests showed that a number of CD-Rs had become completely unreadable while others could only be read back partially. Data that was recorded 20 months ago had become unreadable. These included discs of well known and lesser known manufacturers. It is presumed that CD-Rs are good for at least 10 years. Some manufacturers even claim that their CD-Rs will last up to a century. From our tests it's concluded however that there is a lot of junk on the market. We came across CD-Rs that should never have been released to the market. It's completely unacceptable that CD-Rs become unusable in less than two years. On the image you can see the exact same CD-R. On the left you see the outcome of our tests done in 2001. On the right you see the same CD-R in 2003. The colours indicate the severeness of the errors in the following order; white, green, yellow and red whereas white indicates that the disc can be read well and red indicates that it cannot be read. For those of you who are interested, the original Dutch article can be found here and in the September issue of PC-Active. Please discuss this subject in our Media Forum. END QUOTE. Wow! Now, how about telling us how to determine which ones last and which ones don't?

Last week I had to copy one hundred cds burnt between 1993 and 2002 on a server - only three out of them failed. All of them who failed where multi session cds. The rest where expensive ones and cheap ones mixed. So for for me thats good - by the way is this a Poser topic ?

"by the way is this a Poser topic" Nope, moved to OT.

It is if you've got all you poser stuff archived to CD...

That is funny, all my stuff is on CD for back up and I have not had one problem with any data cd's. Of course I have not tried them all but I better check it out...I know I do still use one of them all the time and have no problems with them. I wonder if the label that covers them makes a difference. Sharen

Well excuse the hell out of me for trying to help. I posted this in the Poser forum because that's where the recent threads about CD reliability were posted. It's a real good thing the mods are on the ball and moved this here so a lot fewer people will see it. Good job!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=1392150

Hmmm.... I see Dr Geep's post about how data is written on CD's is still in the Poser forum. Odd. So are the posts I was talking about in my post, about losing backups and such. And isn't it strange how virus warnings and security holes in Windows are also considered "Poser topics?" None of them got moved either.

Well in my experience I've never lost data recorded on a CD-R, only on CD-RWs. this happens because the writing surface on a CD (the silver shiny part, not the plastic disc) is actually organic material and like all organic meterial it decays with time and use.

Ask me a question, and I'll give you an answer.

I think it also depends on the sype of CD rom drive. I know sopme onw who told me hi laptop does NOT have enough power to read cd RW's. I can believe it. I mean who among us has created a "coaster". It's not like we purposely did anything wrong. I personally like using RW and I have noticed a difference in the quality of of the burn when I make a disk in warm weather as opposed to the colder weather. Which makes me wonder about the quality of cdrw two or three years later. Bsteph

I haven't had any luck at all with RWs. Hate them with a rabid passion... And I had expensive cds go bad after using them a couple of times. Now I make 2 or 3 copies, and I loooooove that...not!

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

I swore off CD-RWs when I lost about 1500 royalty free images I I had purchased for freelance jobs.

Ask me a question, and I'll give you an answer.

Several people have told me that they think it's Poser-relevant, so back it comes...

Has this not all been said before?? Nothing is 100% safe. I get paranoid with a lot of my data so I backup as often as possible and test. CD's lasting 75 years etc.. how they know that? they test in unrealistic conditions and most of it is worked out as an average. All I can say is do not rely entirely upon your cd backups. Hey we all do our best to try and be safe but anything could happen. If I could, when booking a flight I would request a seat in the black box recorder since that is the only thing that seems to survive a crash.

And why is this related to Poser? Because people put Poser files on a CD? That's really, really, reaching. Heck, I put Lightwave files on a CD also. Let's cross-post this thread to the Lightwave Forum. Oh, wait, I also put Bryce files on a CD. Into the Bryce Forum with this thread. Oh, heck, who really cares any more? If you want to post a message about anything in world, just put it in the Poser forum. People will read it. That's all that really matters, anyway. Relevancy to the topic of the forum doesn't matter. And claiming that you are posting an off-topic message in the Poser Forum because that's where an older thread was posted is not an excuse. Should I be allowed to talk about the merits of the upcoming "Return of the King" movie here in the Poser Forum because this is where people used to talk about "The Two Towers"... even though it has ZERO to do with Poser? Oh, wait, I think the makers of those movies kind of, sort of, at one point, maybe thought about using Poser for some early, preliminary setup shots. There... it's now a "Poser related" topic!

John: I posted this in the Poser forum because those other posts were posted there and were allowed to stay there. No one would think to come to the OT forum to look for follow-ups. I agree with the idea of different forums for different topics, but it must be enforced across the board or it won't work. I mean look at OT: it's mostly politics, jokes, etc. Stuff not even related to computers let alone computer graphics. And maybe virus warnings, security woes, and other important topics like backup information should be allowed into the different forums because many only visit their favorite software forum. Comparitively few come here.

I have close to a hundred CDs with Poser stuff on them and I'm really glad that Jackson posted here and the Moderators allowed it to stay, because I just don't have time to read any forum but this one at present. It is a judgement call, but I think that in this case, the message belongs here. Poser, more than any other program I use, requires huge amounts of data storage--what could be more relevant to a serious Poser user than the safety of that data?

Uh... Half day off going around talking... we buy lots of stuff from the marketplace and need to back it up. WE gots to have way to back it up! I have been waiting for this news to break big, cause for us, it's money on those disks. I am betting lots of small companies are relying on all those .25 cent disks for backing up stuff clients paid money for. Poser Forum issue today, class action suit tommorrow. However, hows come music cd's havent failed? Is it just because of a different burn method than home users? Mankind was hoping this little disk would store info for ages...

Music CDs aren't burnt (except the Dixie Chicks). A die is used to stamp the pattern of pits into the top of the blank disc, a layer of aluminium is overlaid to refelect the laser, then a layer of lacquer to protect the aluminium. That's the advantage of knowing what you are going to put on from the outset. Mass-produced CDs have gone bad when the lacquer has failed to protect the reflective layer, either because it didn't cover it fully or because the ink of the label ate the lacquer away, and it has "bronzed" from oxidation.

You mention "bronzed"... I had some cds turn rather yellow, what exactly does that do the data, if anything?

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

Attached Link: http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/bronzed.asp

If the bronzing is bad enough, the laser won't reflect properly and the data will be misread, at least sometimes. If the aluminium layer is lost completely then that part of the disc will become unreadable. This is progrssive - once the air can get in and start oxidising the disc is doomed (unless you can reseal it). Usually the bronzing starts at the edge and works in; if your discs are uniformly yellow it may just be the lacquer aging. In any event, I'd back up to CD-R(s) and contact the publisher: when I had a dozen discs go bad, from two different companies though the pressing plant was the same, they arranged for free replacements: I've attached a link for one of the publishers which gives information on the problem.

I just read an articel about DVD disc quality and reliabilty. One might think that since DVD discs are a higher level of technology, much higher spec, they might be more reliable. Well, that is not the case. Be VERY NICE to your discs. Put them away immediately after use. Dark and cool. Standing UPRIGHT!! In a proper jewel case or similar. The article mentioned that leaving a DV disc in the player for some tine will allow it to warp, as it is only supported in the middle. The edges will drop a fraction, possibly making the surface uneven middle-to-edge and making the disc unreadable..... especially in hot weather, as the plastic becomes a tiny bit softer then. SO if you're in Baghdad, put your DVD's down in the cellar.... lol :] Fish