I was at Epilogue.net a while ago, man what a load of anti-poser freaks they are! They have a clear guideline aginst Poser artwork appearing there - which didn't make sense to me. So I decided to visit their chatroom and meet a few of the admins around - they replied that Poser is NOT 3D art and no just that, the two admins there said Poser art don't even deserve to be called art. It's all rubbish cause all it takes is to "...hit the render button and it's done in 2 seconds..." This sentiment was echoed by almost everyone there at the chatroom who said Poser is "shiny Plastic Mannequin" art. So I gave them a few URLs to the galleries of a number of good Poser artists here at Renderosity and waited for their expressions. They were silent for a while, then they started ranting again along the same lines. That struck me as strange, none of the Renderosity Poser artists here that I introduced to them created anything close to "shiny Plastic Mannequin" art. Curious, I finally asked them, how many of them have seen REAL Poser art and how many of them ARE members of Renderosity - ZIPPO Renderosity, please remove the membership guidelines for viewing the galleries so that those anti-Poser buttheads at places like Epilogue.net could see the light of Poser, shrivel-up and die

I've seen many places like the one above. Ditto on the removal of the need to become a member before viewing the galleries. People really need to see what Poser could actually do and not blindly blast it.

why? why would you try to baptist anyone? anybody with half a brain wouldn't dismiss a software just because it is fairly easy to produce nice looking pictures - to produce art is something quite different and you can do it if you can, with poser 1 or can't do it even with an "instant art creator version 16" if you don't have the ability. if they see what poser can do ("done in 2 secs" - i had a dream ;)) they will start ranting about lightwave, then about photoshop, etc... it's not poser that they're against, it's the snottyness of someone who regards himself an artist. let's face it, most poser renderings are just naive pinups with no message or idea behind it. but that is also true for most other "artwork" be it in digital media or analogue... just my 2 drahmas...

done in 2 seconds flat???? damn,which version of poser do they use,i want it..lol..i read a lot of this kind of thing,some of the art i see created with poser is better than some of the "art" i see in many other galleries,i know mine may qualify for the "shiny Plastic Mannequin" art title..lol...but i have seen many others here who totally blow away other type of art,maybe they do need their eyes opening to what poser is really capable of (just don't show them my gallery..lol)

Sounds as if they use their "art" as a form of S&M-lite, presumably because no dominatrix would let them kiss her kinky boots. Anyone that hung up on man-hours invested as the sole criterion of artistic excellence is past redeeming.

Sometimes what it takes for people to feel strong is to measure themselves against something, by taking strong opinions against a cause. It does not matter if it is a good cause, it just matters that they hold their opinions. (Humans seem to relish in their own ignorance....perhaps the bigger picture is too frightening for them) (maybe this is also why a number of people here like to rant against products that are not released yet too LOL) But anyway....it was not long ago where any CG art was not considered art, so maybe it just takes time for people to understand that art is not found in the technology used to create it, but in the emotions a final piece stirs in ones soul. Rawnrr

Even here at rosity there are quite a few people who are anti-poser. Nothing anyone says or shows them will ever change their minds about poser, stubborness is part of the artistic nature ;) We're better off without those people you spoke to BVH as they'd probably only go through the galleries & troll every poser piece they came across. Let them dream in their fantasy world where they are the elite, one day we'll wake them up with a shock as we've taken over with our "Shiny Plastic Mannequins"

You can't tell people who "know it all", anything. Plus, for those of us that really do know it all, they are damn irritating. (just kidding). Frankly, Poser has the best human content models, texture, hair, clothing, etc that I have seen. Their problem is that it isn't art unless you have done it all from scratch. With Poser, you don't have to.

This is a quote from the Epilogue.net guideleines concerning gallery submissions created with Poser or Bryce: "Artwork created in these programs must be of exceptional quality to be approved." Obviously, Poser is not forbidden there. The only conclusion I can make from the quote above is that art made with other softwares than Poser and Bryce does not have to be exceptional to be approved by Epilogue.net. It's OK if they are mediocre, as long as Poser is not involved... ;-)

wouldn't it be funny if the entire poser using community here joined over at Epilogue & flooded them with poser art? I'm not suggesting doing it for real as that would probably be a TOS violation here, but it would certainly teach them a thing or two & keep them very busy for quite some time ;)

HI I am from a traditional fine art background before getting into 3D i used to hang in alot of "tradtional" Illustration web forums I had many what i considered " Cyber freinds" in a forum called theispot.com once i started using Bryce3D however I became Satan incarnate in the eyes of many of the artists there!! that epilogue.net site is not anti-poser its semm anti- 3D art period From what i can see. The tradition Media illustration market is at it lowest point in history due to the mass proliferation of computer generated royalty free image banks Like GETTYImages destroying the Commissioned work Market so you wil find many artist who still use traditional nondigital media very resistant evne disdainfull of ALL CG Art So just move on and ignore them is my advise.

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LOL @ c1rcle, I was just goona suggest for a bunch from here joining up over there and be really arrogant towards them, but your idea is way cooler.

This art "Snobbery" will continue until the end of time. Photography too had been seen as a heresy against true art all the way back to the Camera Obscura. I bet even coloured paint caused a riot from all the charcoal purists in 40000bc. Yes I also agree that non-members should see art in the galleries, maybe have a members only viewing section or some no-download thingie on the files. One fine day in the year 2469 even 3D Computer art will rage against some new form of technological tyranny.

This argument has been going on for a long time and it is a real shame because Epilogue is a really great website and has some amazing artists. I have bent over backwards trying to "educate" the editors about the use of Poser but it falls on deaf ears. When you submit an image you have to say what medium it was created in e.g digital, watercolour, oil etc. If you submit an image created in the digital medium, it should be judged on the quality of the image not whether you use Poser or not.. It's already been stated but this isn't really about Poser per se. It is just about ignorance and fear. One particular debate I had was particularly interesting when I was accused of being a fraud. Why should my image be accepted into epilogue when it took just "one click" to create it and other traditional artists hours of hard work to paint their person from scratch! That statement is one made out of fear and ignorance... simply. I do have a gallery at Epilogue but it is small in comparison to most and the number of rejections far outweight the number of approvals. And the reason I still submit there is that I don't see why I should be disqualified on the basis of the software that I use. My medium is digital and judge me on the quality, composition, etc of my image not my tools.

It's not just that web-site...check out the Fractal Forum here :O. Talk about hostile. rolls eyes

ohhhh epilogue....~shakes her head~ there is poser work in there {actually recently there was stolen poser work in there ...not just poser work BUT STOLEN work from here sorry it made me laugh at the ironey of it} their are indeed some poser artists from here in there but I tell you what they have a double standard. I have submited pieces that are without any post work...pure renders..and got told obviouse use of digital tools...yet there is pieces in there that the smudge tool needs to be taken away from people. it seems if you know someone in there it is easier to get in. God I know the work I have in there is just embarressing to me now. but they wont allow any of my other work in.{you know it is the type that when you very first get a comp you play with that mouse and your very first art proggy ...it looked like something you got excited and submitted it? that type of art. I was just happy that the mouse and I were geting along LOL I mean it is not like picking up a paintbrush or airbrush and working.} Also do NOT call them on their double standard...they get very mean about that O.O ...I mean like....really mean. They are very antiposer...but like I say. do judge art by the tools it was made with. ;)

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

~sighs thinking it is a bad morning~ that was suppose to be do NOT judge the art by the tools it was made with.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

Some people would say that using terrigen or Vue to create landscapes isn't true 3D art. I had a friend (before converting him)who thought if it wasn't created in 3DSMax or Lightwave it wasn't 3d. So I had him come over to the house and started to show him some stuff I did just in poser and with Vue. He now owns both Vue Pose and Max and is luving the way he can use all 3 together.

Poserverse The New Home for NYGUY's Freebies

These Epilogue.net people sound like my Highschool art teacher, If it wasn't in charcoal, pastels, acrylics, or oils it wasn't art; and unfortunately I was also brainwashed into that frame of mind, I didn't consider anythig created in a computer "Art"...then I got Photoshop and I loved it. After that and for a while I didn't consider anything 3D, "Art" infact I actually avoided anything 3D...then a 3D fanatic friend of mine gave me Poser for Christmas, and now I'm hooked, I've created a few images and every time I use it i like it even more, I still do my traditional stuff, but...I LOVE POSER!!!.

The moral of the story is "Never say you don't like something until you try it" and that applies to every thing...unless it looks painful.

Ask me a question, and I'll give you an answer.

Why do you even care what such people think?

I agree :-) let them have their private website and impose whatever medium requirements they wish poser has it own website(rosity etc.) let it go .

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I know at least one "traditional" artist who does work similar to that found on Epilogue. When I showed him Poser he was fascinated ... went and got it as soon as he could. He immediately began making amazing stuff with it. In fact, he was so taken by it his wife got jealous of all the time he was spending with Poser and made him stop. Maybe if others can be "turned" we'll have even more good stuff in the galleries. It couldn't hurt Poser's reputation in the art world, either.

Not to sound elitist, but I just visited their gallery (and yeah, this was the one that had the "artist" whose technique was a beautiful example of right-click). I'm sorry, but these folks have more mediocre "art" in there than you can imagine. Same old fantasy crap we've seen since D&D was just emerging, most of it done by amateurs who make the Rsity hobbyists look like Old Masters. Not worth anyone's time.

Yeah, but, Joey, it's Real Art cause the computer didn't do it. God, I have heard this "the computer did it" since my ththird International Fractal Contest. I sat around waiting for a couple of weeks for the computer to do that-- it never did. And UF is a friendly program compared to Poser. Longer renders sometimes. I'm beginning to think that computer artists should emphasize and revel in the fact that what we do cannot be done without a computer-- this is more true in Fractals, and if you think fractals are still in the Grateful Dead cover phase, you don't know fractals. But cgi art comes close to computer only and animation surpasses it. I like blending postwork into 3D alot, but even that is strikingly computer specific. Yes you could create linoleum cut grunge brushes but fading them, burning them-- can we not just accept that creativity can be freed by the computer as well as tied up and sealed in boxes of cliche? I mean, sorry to hit the artistic heroes of many, but how many times has Valleyo repeated himself? If you are creative, the tool don't matter. If you are not, you can use Rembrandt's own brushes and oils and still produce the equivalence of Naked Vickis in Temples. Emily

I was raised on Dragon magazine's artwork. Artists known as Brom, Easley, Royo, Vallejo, have given much inspiration. The works of H.R. Giger blew my mind when I was first introduced. Early "Masters" have given me little more than a cheap representation of what I may see in everyday life.

This conversation along with the mentality, has grown quite old.

Either you like it or you don't, the end.

Often, a magazine cover will be more appealing than a Rembrandt. The medium is not what makes art, it may add to the WOW factor. If we are limited to using prehistoric methods in order to create what a society deems as art, society has grown quite pathetic.

Poser is a set of tools, much like like a box in which oils, brushes, and canvas is kept. Alone, it is nothing.
In regards to comparing it to other methods of CG art...

You spent how much on Maya, 3DSMAX?
That's an awfully large extension on your penis, eh?

Poser users need less than one tenth of such an extension to equal the same results in a still!

Chew on that!

did not yet read the whoel threads and reply (i know it is not serious :) but what i first read makes me sick ! especially peopel being in fetish/dominatrix sm art and that "complain" about plastic shiny look :) it is laughable about galleries vieable by non members i always longed for this, because i often want to show friends 3d arts on poser here and i have to either ask them to subscribe (they do not always want) or save the pic, send them and such... thagt's why i mirrored my own gallery on my website but it is tedious now for "hittign render hand having done in 2 seconds" sorry i have to laugh and vomit at the same time.. i know what lousy renders (raw) i obtained when i began, which i can now achive with more knowledge of lighting and using bette textures, yet when i see most galleries of guests at japanese poser websites (seems they have a code of honor not to use postwork except for compositing) i simply cry and would like to have my renders such as good.. i do not mention what people here can do taking a render and poswtorking it. i want to see THEIR art and to see how much time and care they spend onto it :)

Two minutes? Good thing I didn't run across that as I was trying to get a piece rendered for the Daz Platinum gallery (which they closed submisions earlier than their midnight claim, I might add - thanks a lot Daz).
The render alone took all day long and that was the third and final render. Then the postwork, etc. And putting the damn thing together took a few days as well. Add in the days I spend on textures...

Just proves they don't know what they're protesting about. Chalk it up to ignorance.

...... Kendra

Oh, I get it now!

Just visited the site...

...apparently if your tools don't say "Crayola" or "Prang", you aren't considered an artist.

Now I understand, all the time I spent doodling on the desks back in high school, I was creating art.

Hmmm, where did that 96pack of Crayola go???

naked women in temples are a time honored artistic tradition, Queri! There is even a corresponding tradition for naked men which is likely much older. I mean... look at all those Greek gods and goddesses! ;) We've even got Venus fertility figurines popping up all over the Paleolithic period! g actually, I could care less if a woman is naked in a temple. I don't judge a render by its subject matter any more than I judge it by what it was rendered in... even if its a frequent theme or an inexpensive piece of software. If it uses paint, clay, film, pixels or polygons, etc etc... doesn't matter to me.

Ok i'm a bit new to this, so can someone explain this to me. If they don't like poser or bryce (if not bryce probably vue too), then what are they using or how do they make the art that's there? Is it painted by hand or what? 3dsm or lightwave maybe? I just clicked there and there are some really good pics there, but i've seen pics here just as good or better.

I'm looking at their "Art Guidelnes" and it states... "Poser, Bryce and other software: Artwork created in these programs must be of exceptional quality to be approved."

I came, I rendered, I'm still broke.

I work with 3d artists a lot and its funny cause they will snub their nose at poser yet I have caught them several time "sneaking" animations and meshes from poser to do their work. Even the animation master people snub poser yet the poser community is way larger. What is a mystery to me is if Max, Maya etc are so great for this (which they are on a commerical end) then why so few production examples? The net has tons and tons of poser movies, comic books etc yet so few max or maya stories. I know of no one who has a continuously running 3d art serial on a pay site that is not poser. When I did hosue construction there were also people like this. If you didn't cut your own wood by hand, mill it your self, ever used a kit or used prefab items you weren't a REAL carpenter. Of course the REAL carpenters took nearly a decade to get a house done and those still weren't really ever done. Well there are snobs everywhere, usually people who try to maintain a club to justify their own existance. On the high end those tools work way better than Poser. I think one of the other problems with poser is that some people keep using the same stock figures over and over and somehow those people end up getting the most exposure. I cringe everytime I see posette with that same yellow wig in some public ad like an amatuer car commercial etc. No wonder poser gets a bad wrap.

You can make give the link to an individual artist's gallery and outsiders can view it, as I understand it. Renderosity didn't make the galleries generally open because members whined and complained about their artwork being stolen, and then when the administration tried to take a step to making that more difficult (at least minimally), the membes whined and complained because they couldn't so easily download other artists' work to put to their own use on their hard drives. I don't know why we should expect another community to act rationally when this one doesn't have any consistency. To me, a real artist (which I'm not) wouldn't care a fig newton for the opinions of some self-righteous, art bigots. But if you do, then do work to please them and then they will let you in their doors...if that's what you want, it's easy enough to achieve. If not, do your own work and forget about the rules some other community makes. They have the same right to feel the way they do as you do...and they are not forcing you to look or join.

it's their site guys.. let 'em be snobs if they wanna be. does it really affect any of us here? unless you are trying to get into such sites... no. nope. not at all. just laugh at their 'quaint' ways and move on...

To me, All good art has the ability to draw the viewer into the emotions and viewpoint of the artist. Art lets the artist share ideas and feelings that words alone cannot express. I have seen many images the were done by beginers with low skill levels that have this quality. I have also seen many pieces that are technically perfect but fail to stir the soul in any way. Which is art? If an artist can make their viewers share that experiance, the work is a sucess. Most of us create art because we have something to share not because we hope for some commercial gain. The sharing is the important thing. This is the reason Renderosity is such a great place. It is a place were people share and artists can grow. The skill can be learned. Art is the mirror of the soul.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=jjsmlee

If you point then to someone's complete gallery they can view without being a member.

They just can't browse the gallery randomly.

Try this one.

-J.

People with that kind of attitude are the sort of people i don't want to know, in the real world as well as the art world, makes you wonder how many other things/people they judge...Steve

Ah, but they have not got Millennium cats and sea-serpents and cute littel mice, a free nut people, and Traugs and morphing genetalia and lots or red hair textures and flat-in-the-Z-direction Koshinis, and millions of little fairies and super hi-res men who are really women and clothes that can fit all and a guinea pig and loads of deer and fish and furniture from every era and free anime dolls and toon animals that can morph in to other toon animals and lots and lots of nakid girls in temples (many with swords) and ..... I say pity them, I like it here! Poser rules, ok!

If we continuously call what we do 'computer generated' art, we should get the sneering that term deserves. 'CG' shouldn't be used either. I've mentioned this before but it seems to get lost in the middle of longish threads. If they think a couple of clicks and a few seconds is all that's needed, it's because the industry has given what we do a label which is misleading to people who don't know better. The computer doesn't 'generate' it, we do. The computer just helps us get our vision into pixels. My proposal is that we all start using the term 'computer realized' art. How about it? Did anyone read this message?

LOL Elgyfu! Yes, Poser goodies rock!!

I suggest using time to create some art instead of coming here to bitch about what other people dont consider as art.

Does anyone see the irony here in these people complaining about "digital art" and yet they post their artwork on a computer in a "digital" format? I am personally not threatened by people making these comments as I know my abilities in both traditional and "un-traditional" artistic mediums. If you know you're an artist and you are confident in your abilities, who cares what other people say of your chosen medium?? Digital art is the way of the future and I have no problem with the term Computer Generated or CG Artist. I'm actually quite proud of it. My two cents...

Renderosity does not care what you guys do over there, as long as you do not attempt to represent Renderosity in an official way. So if everyone wants to join that site ... go ahead ..we don't care :) Lyrra

Maybe we should call our art CAI - Computer Assisted Images. :) Personally, I can't draw a straight line with a ruler , but I can create some decent artwork thanks to Poser, Photoshop, etc. I really respect and envy people who can draw with pencil, etc., but I don't think the tools alone determine the worthiness of the finished artwork.

elgyfu..LOVE THAT POST :)

to be fair, from what I've seen, there is very little 3d images posted on epilogue.net It seems to be a predominantly 2d traditional painting/illustrating community. I can understand their aversion to poser, not unlike the contempt 3d modellers have for poser because of its inability to create original meshes. all I'm saying is, they have their place, and poser users have 'rosity. personally, I'm kind of sick of the whole wacom airbrushed minimal render/maximum post look. but everyone on here loves it so I'm not gonna start ranting against it. thats just the predominant style on 'rosity. and epilogue has its own style.

mmmmm some of us CG artists do work traditional mediums as well..and the gallery I have there was all painted on the puter. to me it was the ultimate "obviouse use of digital tool" but amazingly and jaw dropingly they let it is. BUT they wont let in a HUGE amount of just amazing work. they do have a few mill dragons over there that will make your eyes pop too. But all in all it is a very unfriendly site they turn there back on art because they judge the tool. not the work. we all know that you dont just open poser and POOF a render happens! but they somehow invalidate that work. THAT is what is frustrating. contrary to popular belief{coughcough} poser does not work itself. elgyfu great post!!!!!!

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

LMAO!!!! I tried posting at epilogue too and got the "obvious use of digital tools" brush off too - as well as "evidence of smudging" ect... and I thought - Well, yeah! Of course there is obvious use of digital tools, thats my media! So I wonder is anyone ever gets an "obvious use of oil painting" or if they use pastels, perhaps an "evidence of smudging" rejecton notice. are you not supposed to be able to tell? It reminds me of an art teacher who once told me that abstracts were not real art, and if your "art" did not look like she thought it should look, it needed to be fixed. -lol good thing I skipped most of her classes. Jane

Yay! elgyfu, you hit it right on the button! Hahahahaaaaaaa..... ROFL! Just brilliant. :] Fish

im bored as hell and i surf all day and in almost all 3d sites all the pictures are done with poser and they look so reall!! shiny Plastic Mannequin!??!!?! are they blind or what?! im not an expert and im amazed what poser can do!!! and if poser "sucks" so much how come that almost every 3d artist have it? and there so many versions and they just keep coming? -vamps

someone pop over there and check this dude, Sandro Bassi, his Childhood's End piece do it or don't it has a major chunk of 3D art in it? i.e., the sphere and background, looks like Bryce background

Why shouldn't speech be free? Very little of it is worth anything.

I think we're all being too hard on epilogue. Let the quality of their accepted work speak for itself and humble us: http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=42958 http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=18759 http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=31301 Hell hath no fury like a BFA working at McDonalds with a pillowcase stuffed full of rejection slips from TOR, Baen Books, etc.

err, I can draw better than that. (the last one is really good draftsmanship though) makes me think I should start posting some of my 2d at epilogue G

uhmmm Duanemoody I dont know who you are refering to with the mcdonalds and pillowcases...but I know I have been a professional artist for many years...work in many mediums and have no problem with my art or the ability to market it. believe it or not Epilogue does reject quality art just because they are snotty. epilogue has a very narrow view of what is art and also a HUGE double standard...trust me from what I know alot ALOT of poeple are rosity are not what you are making it sound like.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

ok lets give some credit thought where credit is due... http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=35894 an excellent dragon. http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=16230 that piece is just FLIPPING AMAZING http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=3164 another amazing piece.. but out of allllllllllllll those pages in epilogue there is there is patheticly few pieces of poser art. and if you search poser....not all those pieces are what you would call outstanding. it is the double standard.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

Ok, I don't know about epilogue or traditional artists, but I do know about the general thoughts from 3d-max and maya "artists" about Poser. Like it's been said here before, these people do not appreciate poser art, because the poser users didn't model the mesh themselves, and at times didn't make the texture and the light and so on and so forth. I understand the appreciation to artists who have that ability to model and texture something all on their own, so I understand where this view is coming from. I asked in a forum maya and 3d-max artists what their opinion was about Poser as a tool not as a 3d program. I gave a link to an image here in Renderosity I thought was an amazing piece of ART (terms of composition, colors, idea, simply beautiful), and they said "no, I wouldn't call it art. What did the artist do? raised her hand a little and put a dog and sky? that's no art". (Nevermind that posing is an art all by itself, IMHO). So I said, "ok, so give me links to works that you consider to be ART." I was given a number of links to things that were done in maya or 3d-max, all very impressive, I have to admit and I wish I could do it too - but all were "showcases" of models. None of them were "images" - a scene with idea and composition and message. So.... what am I trying to say? I guess there's more to "art" then technique. Technique is important, no doubt, and if you don't practice it your "art" will not grow, but you still need something more.

...but here goes: Instead of weeping over what a couple of snobs say, why not simply out-render 'em? Push yourself, your artwork, and rise above and beyond the cross-eyed vicky in a temple thing? For those who have risen above that, rise even higher. The tirck is to make yourself and your medium kick the unholy dog excrement out of anything you've ever done before. Let the folks running Epilogue sit there and get their keyboards sticky over the latest press release from Discreet. If they want to limit themselves, that's not your problem ...is it? you know? This reminds me of the old boot-camp saw told between a Drill Instructor and a Recruit, right after the recuruit started a fist-fight with one of his fellow grunts: DI: "Why did you punch him, dumbass!?" Recruit: "But Sir! He called my mother a whore!" DI: "Well - is she?" Recruit: "No Sir she is NOT!" DI: "Then why the f@ck do you care what he has to say about it!?" -- I'll let everyone think on that for awhile... /P

:) good point. on that maya thing is it like going to an artist that paints in oils...and slamming their picture because they didnt mix the actual paint themselves but bought it at artmart. or they didnt make the brushes to paint with. just the same thing.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

I completely agree with Penguinisto here. Plough your own furrow, listen to constructive criticism, improve your art and imagination along with your technical abilities. And bollocks to anyone else who tries to rip into you for the tools you use.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Yes Penguinisto :) , most of the elites of the 3D community view Poser that way. And the sad thing is that sites like Epilogue.net exists to reinforce this view, and without even bothering to see our works here at Renderosity, they stereotype Poser as a gizmo for creating 'shiny plastic mannequins'. Anyways, if Poser is a whore, then like everyone says, we've got to be better pimps ;P

"It's not art, because it threatens our livelihood." That's what's really at the heart of the whole thing, whether it's Epilogue.net or some deconstructionist artiste snubbing his nose at anything enhanced / colored / painted in Photoshop or in any other way touched by a computer. You'll even find so-called "artistes" who'll decry Vallejo and Giger on the pretext that their work is mainstream pop culture and therefore doesn't "express" anything. However, a big empty square canvas with a couple of triangles to discretely cut the letter "M" is apparently "art." The world of museum-level high art has turned to this kind of empty deconstructionist tripe or other more ludicrous projects (rotting meat dresses, goldfish in blenders... I even remember an article about an overflowing trash can which became an exhibit). The art world is threatened. If society begins to accept the fact that a really talented kid with Photoshop can make "art," then there will be fewer $250,000 paycheques made out to the "artistes." That's what it all boils down to. Chas

I can't draw that well, so I use Poser and Bryce. They are tools just like oilpaint, crayon or pen. I can appreciate both sides of the coin. My way of thinking it's the tools that you use and the way you use them. It is up to the individual whether or not, they like or dislike a bit of artwork. The world is filled with "Know It Alls" and "Wowsers." The tools I use help me get my ideas and imagination happening. If people don't like it, so what, as long as I am getting some enjoyment out of it. Why take the fun out of a already diminishing enjoyable extistence? Got me beat! Mark

Chas, you're so right. I keep telling my engineer for a bf that can't draw a stick figure that he needs to enter his 'artistic' looking collection of electronics in the cellar to an exhibit. of course, I'd rather call it a mess, but if it makes money... g

I agree with Bonni, who said, "Dismissing a tool or even a whole genre utterly out of hand because of some preconceived and poorly researched prejudices is the height of arrogance, as far as I'm concerned." I remember being attacked not too long ago (1989 to be exact) for using a computer to produce print pieces, and being told, "you're not a real artist if you use a computer." I ignored them of course, because I knew what the future was, and fear and ignorance isn't it. It's funny looking back now at just wrong they were. It's more efficient, and even better, graphic design and typography had an explosion of creativity! Photography, video editing, and animation are also undergoing a Renaissance. And now the frontier has moved to the Internet and 3D. I expect this trend to pick up speed. In a few years, we will all wonder how we got along without online art communities like Renderosity, and easy to use 3D programs like Poser. One more point I would like to make. The purpose of art is not to be a masterpiece, overshadowing all other art ever created. If that were true, nobody would ever make art, it would be too scary. Imagine a 2 year old comparing their humble scribbles to Michael Angelo, Monet, or Marvel Comics? I believe art isn't just about an end product. I believe the process of art is extremely valuable too, and good for the soul. It's about creativity, and creativity has many forms: sometimes it's problem solving; sometimes it's inventing a narrative; sometimes it's "connecting the dots" ; sometimes it's visual, motion, or lyrical poetry, and sometimes it's a way to explore a subject, investigate it, and know it. People who think only "good art" has a right to exist, or people who think computer art is not real art, are fools. Nevermind them, and get back to making art. It'll make you feel better. :) bB

Rock on, elgyfu! I'm having a blast too! =) B

To the 'elitist' anti-digital crowd: I am a digital artist. I don't use pencils, paints, inks, canvas, paper, or any other such media. I use pixels. I'm spending less overall on supplies, because I can use my software, my tablet, and my computer over, and over, and over again. Use your paint, it's gone, buy more. Finish that canvas? Buy another one. Brushes wear out? Buy more. My art doesn't hang in traditional galleries. I don't have gaggles of rich snobs hmmm-ing and hahh-ing over the merit of my work. I have regular everyday folks looking over what I love to do, and sometimes taking a print home with them. Can you say the same? I'm doing what I love, and making money. Are you? I appreciate all forms of artistic expression: oils, acrylics, pencil sketches, pen & ink, watercolor, sculpture, and yes, digital. Do you? There is no real art...no real artists. There is art, and there are artists. The medium is irrelevant. If you choose to ignore or belittle any art form, the loss is yours...not mine. "True art makes the viewer do one of three things: think, feel, or remember. If you can do this with your work, you are an artist." - Me David 'ChromeTiger' Hebbe Proud member of the Digital Artist Community

There was a time when the "traditional artists" called Picasso's work "crap". Times change. No one likes change. It's uncomfortable and it's threatening. The digital medium makes it possible for a lot of people to create some fairly good imagery, without the benefit of the traditonal tools. This has to be threatening for the 2D purists. There will come a time when digital artists will feel the same way about the next "new medium craze"....whatever it turns out to be :)

The analogies in this thread are slightly off IMO, and are closer to the following:

Brushes, Paint, Oil = Photoshop, Painter, other paint programs
Sculpture = Modelers
Art Direction = Poser, Bryce, Vue, other renderers

It all comes down to the simple concept that most render artists use models/textures from other artists to create their art. Yes, it takes talent to do so (and to do it right), but it's a different talent than drawing or painting from scratch on a canvas or screen. I do both 2D and 3D and I am very conscience of the difference. Especially in 3D where I have to explain to a 2D artist that I didn't create half of the things I used in the picture, where in 2D I don't have to make such a statement, because every pixel is my own.

To me, Epilogue wants to showcase the artists who's talent lies in their hands and the ability to create from scratch using their medium digital or traditional. I admire many artists there, just as I do here. It's just a different place and a different discipline than Rosity showcases. There will always be people wary of rendered art, because of the model sharing, but if you truly love your art, then it shouldn't matter to you what they think or who they choose. In fact, embracing what you see there and learning from that, whether it's your style or artwork specifically will help you be a more rounded artist. I saw a show the other night where a singer told her performing arts teacher, "I don't want to dance, I don't want to act, I just want to sing." The teacher told her, "By learning all of these, your singing will be that much better." It's good advice for artists. The more exposure you have to other artists and genres, the more you can learn and apply to better your own work.

I hope I didn't offend anyone, not my intention. As I've always said, art is everything one creates, but there is always going to be people who hang on to their own particular discipline. It's the way of life.

My 2c
ShadowWind

ShadowWind...exceptionally well said. SWAMP

Congrats to all above on a very witty and well-reasoned thread! One small point - here at R'osity we do have galleries for Poser, Bryce, Vue, etc, and if Epilogue want to have a gallery for traditional media, that is not so very different. And there are societies for watercolourists, etc, on media-based lines. Personally I don't care what media are used, it's the image that counts. And there is NO computer program in the world that will give you instant art with no talent required. Instant pictures, maybe - art, no.

ShadowWind - I agree with every word. :)

I look at it like this your the user of a program skilled at entering commands. The computer is the artist because it does most of the work. the computer does things you can't do by hand, But the computer can't put the stuff together without you either, so I say it's a joint coventure between you and the computer to produce a piece of artwork. So yes it is art.

The computer is the artist because it does most of the work. LOL ... until you model something from scratch 8-)

The computer is the artist because it does most of the work. Hmmm... So if the degree of effort expended is the standard of artistic creativity that would mean that a horse who pulled a plow all day long is more artistic than Rembrandt who merely used a small brush to push a bit of paint around on a canvas. I had no idea that horses were so gifted... you learn something new everyday!

Doesn't that also mean that a paintbrush, paints & canvas are the artist too? An inanimate object cannot be classed as an artist & that includes a computer at least until they perfect AI :)

I used to be a "traditional" artist. That is, I used oils, charcoals, pastels, etc. Painter transformed me to a digital artist, primarily because it was "media without the mess" and I could use the same principles that I used with the other tools. However, once I saw 3D software (back in the DOS 3D Studio days), that was all she wrote. My art took on a whole new dimension (no pun intended). To me, the computer is just another medium that I can use to express my creativity, and it is no different than the other tools that I used to use. The only difference is that the computer allows me to express my creativity in ways I never could have imagined.

Especially in 3D where I have to explain to a 2D artist that I didn't create half of the things I used in the picture, where in 2D I don't have to make such a statement, because every pixel is my own. and how is that different than collage in 2d and 3d traditional art? Just because you didn't make half the polygons, has no bearing on how you work with textures and shaders, composition and lighting. People working in collage don't make the bits they collect to put in their work either, and they seem to be called artists all the same... also, sometimes its fun to take a render that you composed, then use it as a base for doing traditional 2d art, drawing what you composed in 3d, using the 3d work like you would use live models in real life. Draw it and submit it, and let them take a bite outta that one.

Don't forget all those Old Masters getting their apprentices to do the backgrounds, the clothes, etc.

There is a theory rather convincing that some of the old masters used optics to cast the image onto the canvas and then they actually traced over that image. Cheating...or a masterful use of the technology of the time? Computers are simply an extension of the mind and the hand. Some people (like me) produce nothing more than jigsaw images (placing a figure here with a background there and details here and there) and other actually manage to produce something that is amazing. It isn't the tools that create the magic. It's the imagination and creativity of a true artist. I'm not of the "everyone is an artist" school...clearly some people have talent and others don't. But it is possible for someone to create art with a computer--I've no doubt of that. And it is equally possible for someone to produce garbage with oils (just let me at a canvas and I can prove that in a nano second). And the other hand, I think a great many people post a lack of effort in the galleries, which only proves the anti-Poser viewpoint.

bijouchat..said..." sometimes its fun to take a render that you composed, then use it as a base for doing traditional 2d art, drawing what you composed in 3d, using the 3d work like you would use live models in real life". Not only do I find that fun,but also relaxing,creative,and very fulfilling. I would really like to find a softwear that would help me with my drawing skills in Painter. Don't know about the "hype"in this ad...but as I read it.. does look promising.....

..good thread.. SWAMP

oh, I have the first Poser one for Mac!! I used it constantly for just what it said in the ad, in fact never replaced it until P4... thanks for the memories :))

You know, I don't remember where it was I saw Poser, I'm thinking it was Comdex or maybe even the Consumer Electronics Show in Orlando, many, many years back when it was Fractal Poser 1 and I thought then, "What is the point?" as I watched the guy open and close the dog's mouth. I wasn't really an artist then, but had dabbled in digital painting somewhat, but I hadn't realized then the uses it could have for being an artist reference, which is still true today.

I haven't really used the 3D programs as 2D references as of yet (though I've done some hybrid pictures with a figure from Poser and a figure in 2D), but it's something I'm interested in trying. I've seen some great examples of such.

dialyn,
I think everyone is an artist in their own way. That's not to say that everyone will be able to make it into the professional art market, but the creation of art is something that anyone with imagination and emotion can do IMO. On the other hand, you never know. Art is based on perception many times, rather than technical. Just look at the sales of art from the elephant that paints...

ShadowWind

ShadowWind, I respectfully disagree. Not everyone is an athelete. Not everyone is a genius. Not everyone is a singer. Not everyone is artist. And that should be okay...we should be able to celebrate what we are without being expected to be what we are not. We live in this ego driven world where everyone is expected to be able to do everything. It's not true. There are true artists, and then there are the others of us who are dabblers. Give the true artists the respect and attention they deserve and celebrate them for the talent and abilities. Don't degrade them by saying they are my equal, because I don't want to be so egocentric as to pretend that. Delusional I'm not. And most of us will only be dabblers. Not everyone is Shakespeare...there was only one. Only one Leonardo da Vinci. Only one Emily Dickenson. Unique, amazing, wonderful, and without equal. Don't diminish them by putting them in a basket with me labled "everyone is an artist." It isn't true. It shouldn't be true. Talent should be recognized. Lack of talent should be acknowledged without penality. I will not build my ego on a false premise. Off this thread. Thanks.

Just look at the sales of art from the elephant that paints... Yeah, and he paints for peanuts!

Dialyn,
And where can I find the test that will let me know if I am an artist, versus a dabbler? Whether you are genius or an athlete is very measurable in real life terms, and are generally not open to interpretation. However, in art there is no test, art is up to the perception of the viewer. If someone, anyone, thinks it's art, then it's art and thus the creator is an artist, whether one likes that brand or not or thinks it's deserved based on their perspective. I've seen so many works at art auctions that I wouldn't give a nickel for sell for $5000 or more, because perhaps in that viewer's eyes, the image speaks to them and therefore is art, at least to them.

BTW, for every DaVinci, there were hundreds of equally talented artists who didn't get any press to become famous, but we don't hear about those guys.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any delusions that my work is at the same technical level as many other artists such as j-art, Hobbit, racin-jason, lemonjim, to name a few. I just think that artists come in many forms and styles and that to create art is something that everyone can do. I think those that we drool over for their talent and artistic ability are Master Artists and I fully agree that not everyone (and even a very few) can reach that status, so no I don't think just calling someone an artist is belittling to those who are more advanced at the craft.

ShadowWind

PS: Did you know that Charles Schultz of Peanuts fame was told by Disney that he wasn't talented and should give it up. If he listened to the advice of those who thought he was untalented as a cartoonist, we wouldn't have Snoopy to enjoy today.

The Grand Ole' Opry told Elvis to go back to the farm...

Untalented in art is a perception, and one never knows with training whether one will get better and surpass his/her so called critics...

the key word is craft, not art. Most of what I do is actually craft, and can be learned by nearly anyone given enough effort applied. some of the most celebrated art through human history, we know not the names of the craftsmen. Stroll through an Egyptian or Greek antiquities exhibit and realise their art is also craft, learnable crafts, like metalworking, painting, pottery, and stone sculpture. The 'talent' was actually taught, passed down through generations, and generally adhered to a set official style.

" PS: Did you know that Charles Schultz of Peanuts fame was told by Disney that he wasn't talented and should give it up. If he listened to the advice of those who thought he was untalented as a cartoonist, we wouldn't have Snoopy to enjoy today. The Grand Ole' Opry told Elvis to go back to the farm..." Here's another one for you along the same line "Can't sing, can't act, dances a little" the person this being trashed by those 7 words was Fred Astair. It was true that he was a poor singer and only a fair actor but man, could he dance! :-)

Why shouldn't speech be free? Very little of it is worth anything.

If anyone's curious, I tried Epilogue, and submitted 4 pics, all of which clearly had "Poser and Photoshop" in the image description. 3 were accepted right away, and one was turned down, citing composition. Granted, those pics are a little more complex, but there seemed to be no second thoughts about how they were made. (If anyone's curious, those 4 pics also appear in my gallery here at http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=Chas -- they're "Past Lives," "Cybele," "That Midsummer Night's Dream" and the rejected one was "Arcana"). And ShadowWind wrote: "I've seen so many works at art auctions that I wouldn't give a nickel for sell for $5000 or more, because perhaps in that viewer's eyes, the image speaks to them and therefore is art, at least to them." I've also seen folks shell out $5000 for art not because they appreciate it as art, but because they want the prestige of being able to say that they "get it" (even if they don't). Take care; Chas

surfing through poser rosity freestuff i found this artist webpage/gallery of 3d art.... http://www.gordanadesign.com/3dgallery.htm meanwhile i went to epilog.. theere is some good art, but well in some genres like manga, they often are below the usual fanartist standard in such kind of communauty or artists :) anyway epilog is good in itself but i sens too much arrogance and narrowmindly attitude :(

well abotu posing and such take photography, it is called an "art"... But does the photograph MADE the woman model that poe frotn of him ? no, parents of her made her yet no one will complain abotu him not being a good photograph or artists as he uses a model he did not made. so for people in 3d communauty shunnign people that annot do modelling or texturing, i say that NO ONE can master ALL skills needed at once. Many modellers are talented but unable to do good postwork and use of a paint software, many peopel make stunning realistic textures without always being able to 3d modelling a full human body. Now for the person using someone's else 3d human body, and someone else's realistic texture, there is still much artistic work to make, such as ligthing, pose, and postwork Also why would people only wanting to try to share what they have in mind to be able to do what someone took 10 years to master ? Art is abotu feelign and imaginations. You cannot even graba pencil and ake decent strokes? that does not mean you have no feelings or imagination to share and communicate to others. As long as it took you to learn or practice any specal skill related to the art medium you use, as long as it required you to think and to try to express your feelings and to comunicate what your imagination made in your head, it is art IF you manage to have people getting same feeling. I saw photographs or poser artists who could totally change a picture/scene only by ligthing. And what to say abotu all those japanese poser hobbyists or artists that manage to make so many postworkless renders to look so good ? I refer to it as such a person: i began stopping only looking in awe to other works (many artists here impress me, and most of the others please me much too). I started from nothing. Once upon a time i tried to draw with pencils, tried to learn. I was unable to, and now also my hand is crippled so i will never be able to try it again. So i had to resort at describing my feelings and ideas to a friend of mine who was drawing very good and we made a perfect team. A few months ago i took the first step: i began to try out a paint software for the first time in my life (i sometime used some cropping/rescalling and basic operations but no compositing, no drawing, no layer etc). I began to ake soem textures but of course i was unsatisfied and i saw many peopel here making stunnign textures, but i try to learn at my own pace/speed. Then i saw that a GOOD poser render (not even a postworked image) needed MORE than simply click "Render" and wait :) So i began to look for tutorials about lighting, bumpmapping, materials, and such. After that i also had some need that made me learn about depth cue, morph targets and so on. I know i will never be a 3d modellist, because i use poser as a hobby, already have things to do irl for my job and such. I also know that as my needs as an hobbyist requires me to do most of my things myself except 3d models and that what i need , i never found it on artist's marketplaes or free contributions (very narrow needs), i cannot rely on anyone, i have to learn all at once many skills, all by myself. I think many good artists here are specialised in 2 or 3 aspects, mostly postworking (still unable to do it, want to learn) but they sure use other's work for things they do not master and cannot spare/afford the time to learn it by themselves, else they would not be as good in their part. So i have, as always, to be a jack of all trade, in a superficial and low end level, but that's life. Yet even with crude skills, i have "ideas" and i managed to please peopel with my art, and mostly to put down my feelings or ideas/itenntions on a picture. Dont matter if it is superb as many peopel here, what matters to me is that people looking my art feels what i felt making/imaginating it. and as someone told here (shadowind i think), what is painfull when you show digital assisted art to people not into it, you hear the painful question "wow you did this yourself ?" and so you have to painfully explain that you did not model the character yourself polygon by polygon.. so what did you do ? you have to explain that you not always made the texture to... "so what did you do ?" and then you are totally sad :( But of course computer is not the artist, it is a tool. How many peopel can make complex math operations by head ? so for digital artists. So of course the computer take care of many com^plex things, but things we couldn't do all by ourselves from scratch, but the computer wouldn't be able to make it without us too :) I never saw a computer to make its own 3d mesh, texture, pose it light it, postwork it, render it without anyone ! (maybe in the future) want an analogy with music industry ? What are DJ's ? they take samples, existing tuns and songs, and computers and mahines, and they mix it up... They are labelled ARTISTS, and became more famous, gain more glory that the artists who composed the tunes they used. I do not tel there is no talent at mixing parts, in fact, DJing is like ooking, of course you did not make the ingredients but the final dish is yours, yet it is less simple if you ask me. So if a DJ who use other's tunes/songs is labelled as a CREATOR, an ARTIST and his name become more famous, or put more forwards than the artist who created the tune he used, then why wouldnt we call people using meshes, textures and such and computers, to produce pictures, Artists ? Nowadays, for youths, the only artist is the dj, composers of the ripped off tunes are only "ingredients", without name for most people... Think about that ! Here at least we give credit to people we use the materials from and they are praised for their legitimate work. 3d/computer rt is less hyppocrit than most traditionnal arts such as music, photography and such ! sorry for the long post, i cannto connect often nowadays and did not want to put 3 or 3 replies in the threads as i could not :( (excuse also my poor english and my typos...)

"Don't diminish them by putting them in a basket with me labled "everyone is an artist."

I've yet to see someone claim that "everyone is an artist". The exact quote was:
"I think everyone is an artist in their own way."

Does something have to hang on a wall for it to be considered art or it's creator artistic? Before digital came along for me, I considered myself artistic in that I am always creating something. From my own crochet patterns to my jewelry, I consider myself an artist and it has little to do with my gallery here. I don't paint but I've proven I can. I personally choose digital over painting but I combine all my talents when I consider myself an artist.

If you're artistic, you're artistic and no one can tell you that because it's not oils or pastels that it doesn't count.

...... Kendra

FYI, the first "art" was the "art of war." It could be said that cooking is an art, dancing is an art, parenthood is an art, etc. etc. If we're going to try to define art and / or justify the generalization that "everyone is an artist" in some way, we're never going to agree. There's just too many divergent possibilities for which cases can be made. I suppose that there are a few people out there who are physical and mental vegetables who, quite honestly, don't or can't excel at anything -- so a blanket generalization like that can't hold up, anyway. But as for the general possibilities, they range as far as our imaginations, so that argument is a little more than any of us can chew. Might want to save ourselves the frustration and give that tangent a rest. Take care; Chas

My point is that artistic people are drawn to digital art. :)

...... Kendra

I mistrust generalizations and sweeping statements that try to be democratic by including everyone at all levels of aptitude and ability under the same label. Perhaps the distinction is small, but I don't consider everyone here an artist nor do I think everything on the gallery is art just because it is posted. That's a personal bias, I guess. I like to celebrate talent but the title of artist is sullied when false awards are given to people who haven't earned them. And since I don't pretend to be an artist, I guess I'm less offended by being denied the title than other people would be. And frankly, because we are so frivalous with labling everything art, we prove to people that are scornful of digital art that we aren't serious about our graphics--the rating of excellent or great is applied to mediocre work and that gives weight to their point that there is no art in the digital area. I don't agree with that. I think there are artists among us. But everyone of us an artist? No, that's ridiculous...it makes art common and uninteresting as every trash can becomes an art piece because every person who creates a trashcan is an artist (a wonderful technician that person may be, and there may be artistic trashcans, but every trashcan is not art nor is every creator of a trashcan an artist). Are should be something that excites...that we can be amazed to discover because someone shows us a new way of seeing something. To say that every copier of someone else's graphics is an artist is to say every photocopy machine is an artist. That's it. The ebot turn off didn't work. Trying again.

From Epilogue's Guidelines: "Comic-style artwork is acceptable, however artwork with speech/thought bubbles, etc., will not be accepted." In other words, if Roy Lichtenstein had ever submitted to their site, he would have been rejected.

turning off ebots never work, though it can't hurt to uncheck it. Just doesn't seem to work for me. however, if you click on the link to the friggin ebot you do get, you will get more of them. Dunno why but that's how it works. if you do not want to see anymore of the conversation, the easiest thing I find to do... is highlight the ebot response and hit the delete key without ever following the link to see what is here. Every time I have done that I have never gotten another ebot... as the software seems to be triggered by following the link again. I've tested it several times and it definitely appears to be the case. For example, there are three responses here from when I got my last ebot on this thread. I only got one ebot. I am sure I will get another ebot for the replies (if any) to my post. But guess what... I'm going to hit the delete key on that ebot and not read anymore of this thread, and enjoy no more ebots as I won't come look again at it. Do the same, don't complain. :)

to be fair........point #15 of the Epilogue.net Art Guidelines says : ___"Poser, Bryce and other software - Artwork created in these programs must be of exceptional quality to be approved." ___BVH began this thread by implying that Poser images were NOT allowed period. Tsk tsk. Nonetheless, I should hope ALL their accepted artwork would be of exceptional quality. And at the very least Epilogue.net recognizes that software programs DO create Artwork, according to the above guideline. Also keep in mind that 'other software' must necessarily include Photoshop, Maya, Lightwave, and more. Lastly, OF COURSE THEIR DECISIONS ARE ARBITRARY! When all is said and done, the images will be accepted or rejected based on the whims of the judge(s). How else does one make determinations concerning something as transient as 'art'?

It's all well and good because art comes from within and not from the mouths of others.

*My mother said to me, 'If you become a soldier, you'll be a general; if you become a monk, you'll end up as the pope.' Instead, I became a painter and wound up as Picasso.
--Pablo Picasso

Every child is an artist, the problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up.
--Pablo Picasso*

A very famous and well known artist whos work doesn't interest me a bit but I love those two quotes. :)

...... Kendra

And just to show how art "really is" in the eyes of the beholder: Pablo Picasso is one of my all time favorite artists. :)

Mine is Fanch Ledan. :)

...... Kendra

Actually, speaking on behalf of Epilogue, I've got to say we'd absolutely LOVE it if more Renderosity artists would come and submit their work--yes, including their Poser work. Today, looking through the submitted art, there was about 60% non-digital art, 35% 2D digital art, and 5% sculpture. There was not a single Poser or other 3D software submission--not a one. There IS a reason 3D art is woefully underrepresented at Epilogue: very few 3D artists submit. We (the editors) have nothing against quality Poser art. The administrators mentioned in this thread, from what I can gather, seem to be our chat operators. These people are not editors, and have absolutely no say concerning what gets into Epilogue and what does not. If they have spoken to you this rudely, please send a transcript of the chat to me or to one of Epilogue's site admins (Chad Lockwood is the guy to talk to.) We will deal with that. Our chat ops should not be behaving like that, since "Poser art takes 2 seconds to create" is certainly not Epilogue's official policy. The quote about Poser and Bryce art having to be exceptional to be approved is, I'll admit, some rather unfortunate wording. It was intended to avoid the sort of amateurish work everyone's seen--work which really DOESN'T have a lot of effort put into it. That quote is a relic of what was once a much longer paragraph, which included some words about misuse of Photoshop tools, lined paper, and various other artistic blunders. I don't know what happened to the rest of it, but we DO have a much more up-to-date page in our FAQ section now, which explains what the "obvious use of digital tools" message was originally intended to mean. Having seen some absolutely amazing Poser work on Renderosity, as well as stunning work in other 3D programs, I can tell you with perfect honesty that I have nothing against 3D art, or Poser in particular. I've even written for Renderosity magazine twice, and been proud to have my articles displayed alongside those of Poser users. I strongly encourage the starter of this thread to get in touch with myself or Chad about the incident in the chat. Epilogue doesn't condone that sort of garbage in the least.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=Chas

Well, since my post earlier in this thread ("3 out of 4 accepted" etc), not a single thing I've submitted to Epilogue has been accepted. Which is fine, I'm not one to normally fuss over that, but some of the reasons have not made sense to me. Such as "use of copyrighted materials" on pics that use commercial materials I've purchased the right to use and freestuff which allows commercial / non-commercial renders. Naturally, I don't submit work at Epilogue very often anymore, and when I do it's half-hearted. You are welcome to visit my gallery and explain some of the rejection reasons I've received (the exact wording may be off, as I'm going from memory) -- http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=Chas "Arcana V2" ("not fantasy"), "Play Me" ("use of copyrighted materials"), "Erosion" ("obvious use of digital tools") "Subterra" ("poor image quality"), "Masque" ("obvious use of digital tools"), "Incantation" ("use of copyrighted materials"), "Divination" ("use of text in image"), "Night Out" ("poor composition" -- I've received kudos on the composition in this one specifically, elsewhere). Take care; Chas

~sighs~ my last one I submited was also that half hearted {normally I put as the discription that it will be rejected but will submit it anyway} the last one I did was ~in moonlit nights~ one that I was just deliriously pleased with.{god after all these years and I still feel like a five year old when I do one like} and it was rejected for obviouse use of digital tools. that is the reason for all of my past...er...I guess six submissions. the one I thought at least had a real chance {other then ~in moonlit nights} was my ~Gothic Angel~ but nope ...obviouse use of digital tools which I thought was due to her twinkles at the point where metal caught the light but I dont think it was that as I have seen far more tubes and twinkle brushes used in epilogue then I used. so it has left me scratching my head. As I said in the other thread...I just give up. rejection is not a big deal but when it doesnt seem to follow a reason that is when it gets frustrating. Ohh and one pic I submited a pure render..one that I was shocked my puter put out and it was rejected for obviouse use of digital tools..I did have a fit with that one..as I wrote..how could it be obviouse use of digital tools when I didnt touch it!? and ...no reply at all. I dont know in the other thread I gave some suggestions to the rejection phrases but frankly....I just give up.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

use of copyrighted materials means you did not used pencil and canvas to 3dmodel the things you used YOURSELF :) (combo joke). of course if you DID things all by yourself, polygon by polygon, with your pencil on the canvas, but you also sold/released as free what you did for other to use, it thus become copyrigthed material too :) advice: let those frantic integrists narrow minded cavemen of epilog where they belong: ELSEWHERE !

Epilogue rejected your work? I dare say the vast majority of images submitted to Epilogue get rejected, that doesn't mean; There's a conspiricy to keep you out. There's a predjudice against certain media. Or that they are Devil-worshiping, goat rodgering snobs. It means, your work was rejected. Disappointing yes, even annoying, but hardly something to get upset about. A part of creating and showing art, is finding places with like-minded people, who ACCEPT and appreciate what you do. Apparently Epilogue isn't the place for you. So what? I'm sure very many people here ( and elsewhere ) appreciate your work. Why bother with Epilogue if you don't get any joy from them? Please don't demonise an entire community, simply because ( in the opinion of the editors ) your work wasn't suitable -for whatever reason, wether you ( or others ) agree with them or not. I understand from comments in the forum ( at Epilogue ), that some of the stated reasons for rejection are hard to understand or simply don't seem to apply. Perhaps that is something that needs to be addressed. The 'obvious use of digital tools' and 'no background', along with 'Not Epilogue quality', being among the most cited. Bear in mind, there are a considerable number of submissions and the editors don't have time to give a fully explained reason for rejection, but use a list of 'standard' rejection messages ( which are obviously not up to the job ).

uhmm where did I say there was a conspiracy...or anything else? many people feel they do not like poser art. I am not the only one that feels that way. so it is not just me please stop making it sound like it is. ok? why is it that is seems that the people from epilogue make it sound like everyone that is not saying they are great is some sort of loon bag?

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about being rejected. I can handle that. I've been told by one editor to "feel free to resubmit when you have something of value to show us." Water off a duck's back. It's part of being an artist. What I'm puzzled about is the reasons given. Arcana V2 not fantasy? And the composition comment on Night Out -- I just don't get that. That's all. If they want to reject them for more realistic reasons, I'm fine with that. Just make the reasons make sense. Chas

I really hope I haven't made it sound like everyone who doesn't like our site is some sort of loon bag. You're certainly entitled to your opinion! Chas, unless you were submitting fan art (we don't accept fan art), then someone probably messed up on the "copyright infringement" rejection. Could be they were looking at the wrong picture, clicking the wrong reject message, or simply not paying attention. If you got a copyright infringement rejection for an image that is your work, you can resubmit it. Sorry about that. Renderosity's running very slowly for me today, so I didn't get the chance to check out much of your gallery, but if you want to e-mail more images to me for further clarification, you're welcome to do that--or, if you want more advice, Epilogue has a Work In Progress forum. People there can often see things one might have missed, and help clarify the reasons for rejection.

DarkElegance, I apologise if you see what I said as a personal attack, perhaps I could have worded my comments more diplomaticaly, it certainly wasn't meant to be an attack on you. Rather it is a reaction to the overall tone of threads like this. And O.K. the snob remark was childish. It's obvious you feel you have been treated unjustly, I'm not an editor nor moderator at Epilogue. I have no power or 'axe to grind'. I'm a member of both sites ( and I use poser in my work ). I don't know you or your work, nor am I criticising you. I'm merely trying to understand and perhaps reconcile your ( and apparently many others ) view of Epilogue with my own very different one. As for the conspiracy comment it was in response to you saying; "they wont allow any of my other work in". Again if I interpreted you wrongly my apologies, but goodness gracious, I'm not trying to make you ( or anyone else ) look like a 'loonbag'. I'm perfectly happy to accept people don't like Epilogue, what concerns me are your accusations of double standards and that Epilogue gets 'very mean' if you point them out. It may well be you have a point about inconsistences in judging various submissions, but that is after all a matter of opinion. We have discussed such things at length and always come back to the conclusion; we have to trust our editors judgement. They are volunteers and get a great deal of grief about decisions others don't agree with. In the end someone has to take the responsibility of judging submissions ( I'm to chicken to do it ). Chas we also accept both the rejection messages and the submision guidelines need some work, please try to be patient with us, we're only human. DarkElegance you said; 'Epilogue gets mean' if you point out 'their double standards'? Do you mean the response in the forum ( as the reaction to Bella's post for instance ) or something else? If the former, well that's just forum, I'm sure if accusations of unfairness against Renderosity ( justified or not ) were posted here many people would react 'agressively'. Blimey, just the responses about Epilogue's assumed predjudices have been -shall we say forthright. We're artists, just like you. Let's just try and accept everyone has an opinion about what is and isn't good art and often that will be different than ours. I'm sure no one here would seriously believe all Epilogue members ( or staff ) are prejudiced against a medium, despite some of the things said in the heat of the moment -( these comments are not an attack on anyone or any group ) LOL!

"I'm sure if accusations of unfairness against Renderosity (justified or not) were posted here many people would react 'agressively'." Heh, yeah, on BOTH sides of the accusations! :-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Ms Myles no it was not you that got me to make that comment. sorry for that. also yes I am geting abit overly sensitive to this but I just keep seeing this attatude from < and let me get this correct this time and be fair myself> SOME of the people from epilogue can be mean and make a person feel as if they are just flat out either not welcome or not wanted. they make it sound like if you didnt like epilogue there is something seriously wrong with you. Look at the thread that was at epilogue. My god I would be near scared to even post in a forum there! if you dont like epilogue you get ripped apart. and I am not one to mince words or cower from a debate! I guess that is my problem with it. I apologize for making a broad band comment of everyone in epilogue. but it is a general feel when you start over there. I think it was this thread..where in the debate about epilogue I did point out some amazing jaww droping work that is done with poser over there. but generally no from the people I have talked to ..from threads like this and others I have seen...the general feel from poser artists is that they are not welcome over there. perhaps that is why not more are submiting there. In the thread about the epilogue debate< the thread in renderosity> I even did as suggested { I think by Ms Myles} to make suggestions for guidlines etc...and I did...about the rejection tags..and sorry but the response..was not friendly at all. and that is the general tone of it. not very friendly at all.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

oh and Marked...the comment I made about not leting my work in..that is not a conspiracy that is a statement of actual events. I suppose then that chas is also insinuating a conspiracy because he wrote about his rejections?

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

I'm sorry to hear you got an unfriendly response--I hope it wasn't from one of the editors. If you e-mail me your suggestions about rejection messages, I will make sure they are seen by the people who can actually change those things. (The editors can't change them--we don't have anything to do with the programming of the site.) Some people on our forum can get a little overenthusiastic in their defense of Epilogue, it's true. Those people exist everywhere, unfortunately--every site's got a few. Try not to let the views of some of our more vocal members influence your opinion of all our members--we are not all bad, I swear!

I explained why I made the assumptions I did and apologised sincerely if they were wrong. I also answered Chas' comment as best I could. I can see you are very angry about this subject, but again can only say I am not attacking you or anyone else. I can see we can't take the discussion forward at present. Admittedly my purpose was to persuade people that your views were either mistaken or simply a misunderstanding and Epilogue has no predjudice, but perhaps only future inter-action with Epilogue would prove ( or disprove ) that. I can only hope that you and Epilogue can find a way forward and wish you all the best in your future endevours.

In any case, I'll second most of what I have read in that thread. Yes, Poser users are often, too often spat at, mocked, and called many pretty names but the one of "artist". Why? Because, I think, we use models that in most cases we do not build ourselves. At some point, every Poser user will us a texture, a geometry or a lightset created by someone else. This gives us, wrongly I agree, the reputation of a bunch of Playskool kiddies. It's very wrong, it's short-sighted, but that's how it is. Now. Just a question. Do these guys who model their stuff within and for 3ds, with and for Maya, make something that deserve to be called art more than what we do? Certainly not. Aristotelician philosophy states that art is imitation. Somehow, it's true, whatever an artist draws, renders, sculpts, he/she will not create absolutely new-to-this-world characters or anything. What changes is the tool and the interpretation of the thematics. Now, if a Maya pro tells me "I am more skilled than you when it comes to building a 3d character" I will agree, that's absolutely true. If he tells me "I am a better artist than you" I'll laugh at him. For starts, art is subjective, "A" will love my work and "B" will say it's crap. As for the very ase of art, ideas not to name them, I know many a skilled 3d modeller or acrylics paintyer artist who can only come up with shitty concepts. Sensibility is the key. Pride is a trap. Long ago in Japan, the legend says, an extremely skilled calligrapher who could write anything on anything, met a small kid. The kid asked him "please, write something for me on the river". The calligrapher wrote on the river. So did the kid, to the artist's surprise... Then the kid asked "write domething on the skies" and so did the artist, who wrote "RYU" (dragon). Then the kid noticed that a stroke was missing. The calligrapher told the kid "put the last stroke, if you would like to." The kid put the last stroke... and the word "Dragon" turned into a real dragon who flew away and faded into the skies... The kid revealed himself to the calligrapher as being the Amida Buddha and vanished. Moral of the story? Whatever you do, and even if you do it very well... there'll be someday a guy who can pick up your tools and outdo you. I'll accept people spitting on Poser the day they can use them themselves in a perfect way, and the day they'll use a tool I cannot learn myself. Ignore the idiots. The more you wanna convince them, the less they listen. It's not anymore about truth or art: it's just about who's got the bigger schlong, for these guys.

hmm well i would like to add my two scents: many skilled people DO model their own 3d characters and items, many DO draw/compose their own textures; now seeign what deepth of expertise and mastery it takes to make DECENT 3d items/chars, or dcent textures, do they ever have really the time to afford to learn some other basics and skills regarding their modelling/3d render software package ? i woudl guess that many modellers would lack the knowledge to use their own items artisticcaly on in real use job, i would say, compared to someone who did not learn to model but learn for example abotu lights, posing, facial expressosn and such. i guess Poser is unique in its own because most of the time you use premade elements of many kinds (light set, poses, items, characters, textures) yet given the sames "bits" and tools, we could see huge difference between even a RAW render of a poser beginner (must begin someday :) and someone who learnt a lot working on Poser. Poser comes with its own share of aspects and skills needed to be mastered and learnt, at various scale and extent (JCM, displacment map, textures, reflexions, materials, shaders, posing, lights, etc), skills that too DO take time to learn. the REAL artistic value in Poser can be found in this fact: Starting with all the same tools (same characters, same textures, sam software), look at how many different raw or postworked renders people can achieve, how many different styles. I saw a couple of artists here on OR who really took out of "basic" mayadoll looks and expressiosn i would barely had imagined this young character to be able of... so painters use brushes and cavans, infographists use stylet and tablet, sculptors use chisels, 3d artists use modeller as their tool. We have a range of tool that usually fall under "result" of work with "tools" for other people. When a good working character is the "artistic" result of the use of a modellist's tools, it becomes a tool for ourselves to use in a different kind of job. many time i was asked by non poser aware people about my work, it was hard to explain.. and when i had to admit that no i did not MAKE the character, NO idid not MAKe the clothes, NO i did not DRAW the textures (well, for some i did :), they stared at me strangely and disgusted :) then i simply brought them at home, and put them in front of poser / runtime installation and my paint software and i told them: oki, i did nothing myself then, so you can do the same.. go for it ! :) strangely enough the results were.. embarassing :)

I have a gallery at Epilogue and I already knew their attitude towards 3D artwork when I started submitting there. I personally take it as a challenge to get Poser and Bryce created artwork accepted there. It just pushes me to try harder to improve.

They're biased anyway. Thy're more or less like a guy who says "I hate pork meat" but will tell you that the dish you cooked is very tasty, that meat you cooked with paprika... until you tell them "err you know... that was pork..." and suddenly they'll go on about how it sucked. Woho, instant moodswing :) Improve for yourself and for people who'll appreciate your work, but trying to "evangelize" people who don't want to hear about Poser could be very energy-consuming for very little benefit. :)