All, As most of you know I've been working on a model of The Time Machine. It's been done 100% in Bryce except the prisms which were done in Wings3D ( 5 polygons each, careful I don't overload my PC :oP ) Now, I've been told many times (quite rightly so) that Bryce isn't a modeller (and I completely agree) but I haven't any experience at 'real' modelling; nor do I have any of the higher-end applications (so it's just free modellers like Wings3D for me). The main issue with the Time Machine is that its dimensions are completely unknown - I don't have any measurements or anything - therefore getting all the parts in proportion to each other is requiring a lot of 'try it and see' - would this approach work in a 'proper' modeller? I think maybe I'd find it a pain to keep tweaking things, re-exporting/importing, rendering... etc. How can I start getting into 'proper' modelling? Personally I'm quite happy doing everything in Bryce. The Time Machine is at 90 million polys but thats only because of some high-res lattices. Perhaps when I've finished 'tinkering' I should re-do those lattices in Wings3D? Anyway - sorry for the ramble, but any replies will be appreciated :o)

If you just need to resize imported models after you made them that's no problem. Bryce can do that too, so you don't have to re-import them. When I model in an outside bryce app I put as many parts of the together in one file so I can already see in my modeller if they work together. I like modelling in bryce, because it's actually pretty fast. Some shapes are not easy to make in bryce and then I use Amapi 5.15 (which is the free version). A 'proper' modeller as you call it can usually move every point of every polygon on every object, so basically that means you can tweak everything to perfection. Modelling is often a bit 'try and see'. I like to model by drawing a low-res polymesh and then smoothing it. I often smooth after I made some changes to see what it looks like and then I undo the smooth again and go on with modelling until the next smooth-test. All the modelling apps I have worked with had a renderer (one more advanced then the other). If you can render an image of your object you don't need to import in into bryce during the modelling process.

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I think both wings and Amapi would qualify as 'real' or 'proper' modelling apps.

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I don't do much modeling either, but I find that I can acheive most anything I need in Bryce. I do have Wings3D and have done a little with it as well... I guess it all depends on what exactly you are looking to do. Personally I have no problem using Bryce for any modeling I need to do. But that is just one man's opinion. Rayraz made some very good points in the reply above. Just my .02 cents. 8)

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Wings can model every point at a vertice (vertix? vertux? you decide..;). I've been able to do most anything I want in Wings, but Amapi's free (I had problems with 4.15, but 5.15 may be easier..I dunno). Plus points on modelling- aside from using someone else's idea, you don't have to worry about 'commercial' usage, you can get a lot more control over your model, you can use it over and over again..you can reduce the vertex counts,the size of the model, and when you're done, you can give it away or even sell it. I haven't seen anything in the model that couldn't be done in Wings, heck, give it a shot. Plus, you don't have to keep dealing with the 'bobbin' toolbar' in Bryce..did I say that?..;)

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anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

You did all that with Bryce but you don't think of it as a proper modeller? There is no such thing as a "proper modeller", just people with big advertising budgets. I have not seen several bryce tools like multi replicate replicate along path or the randomze and distribute tools in any other app. I have Rhino, a very proper modeller. Its based on cad principles. You trade some of the allignment and dimensioning tools found in autocad or solidworks for a more flexible and non linear interface. Rhino is a nurbs modeller however. Poly counts at interfaces are obscene. If you smooth meshes the faces come apart unlike wings3d. I have wings and am still learning. There are things you can do in it that take hours to set up in Rhino. The smoothing and extrude functions alone make the program worth picking up. I have truespace and am trying to learn but the interface is not intuitive to me. There's lots of left and right click only functions that work or not depending on where you are in the modeling process. I've used Maya and Max3. High end but steep learning curves. I also have programs like bantam grass, windome, etc that only do one or two things but do them very well. Most of these are freeware. Anything I can't do fast in bryce I whip out in another app and import. If you want to get into "Proper Modelling" You can download demos of most applications and try before you buy. Rhino has a version that gives 25saves then dies. Maya has a sort of tutorial version. It works only to setup and execute a tutorial scene and has no saves. Some othe apps have a 30 day drop dead. You need to be comitted with these because if you install and let it sit on your drive 29 days it still dies the 30th. Check several out and see what suits you before you lay out major cash. Rhino $1000 http://download.mcneel.com/rhino/3.0/eval/ Truespace $595 http://www.caligari.com/download/trials.asp?Cate=DTrials Maya $2000 http://www.alias.com/eng/community/downloads/index.jhtml 3d Studio Max (arrange for demo?) $3100 http://www.discreet.com/products/3dsmax/ Wings 3D (freeware) http://www.wings3d.com/download2.php

Thanks for all your responses, and you've all put my mind at ease - I was concerned that I wasn't doing it right. But having read these posts I realise that that's complete BS - there isn't a 'right' way. You've all made a lot of points which I agree with which I'll summarise here: 1. Modelling in Bryce is fast and you get quick turn around with your ideas, 2. If you can't do it in Bryce, drop out to another app and do it in that, 3. The only 'real modeller' is the person doing it - he/she could edit DXF files in Notepad if they really wanted, thats up to them 4. There isn't a 'right' way - just a way thats right for you, So - I'm going to stick with the way I'm doing it, and feel happy about it too :o) When I'm further on in my Time Machine, I probably will replace the 40-odd lattices (1024x1024 each) with Wings3D objects to reduce the poly count, but 1. I can't be bothered, 2. they look fine, 3. my machine copes with it no problems. electroglyph made a good point - there are plenty of apps, bantam grass, windome, spiralizer, elefont, that are free and do their specific job extremely well, and I have no problems with this approach at all. Plus I don't have the money for those other apps LOL. Thanks again :o)

Ive used 3D Studio Max since its inception into the PC DOS platform as 3D Studio from Autodesk the makers of Autocad which Ive also used. Ive also used Rhino, Amapi and even some Lightwave. These are true 3D modeling programs whereas Bryce was strictly created as a terrain generator. As a terrain generator Bryce is very good at what it does best and thats create terrains. Bryce has added other features to its package such as primitives and metaballs, which makes it capable, of modeling other real world objects. But because its primary use is as a terrain generator, its modeling capabilities, as compared to the true 3D modelers is awkward at best and, in my opinion, no where near as fast. Programs like 3D Studio Max allows the user to get very downright critical when it comes to engineering unit measures and can therefore be more accurate when it comes to modeling real world objects as far as dimensions go if that is your goal. This feature it got from its parent program Autocad a very precise engineering CAD program used by professional drafting, graphics and mechanical design engineers around the world. These other programs mentioned can very well suit your needs quite well without the added cost and theres much to be said about them and their use in the 3D world. They are not to be taken lightly. You can do a great deal with them as well you could with Bryce. It broke my heart a few days ago when I saw your first post on the time machine since for about 8 months now I had been setting that up as a pet project of mine for a future Bryce render. I had even set aside in my Bryce project directory a sub folder called Time Machine Project where Ive started to collect as much references and images as I deemed necessary to complete the project. I collected a total of 16 images I thought would help me to re-construct the original time machine. I had decided that certain components of the time machine would be better handled in either 3D Studio max or Rhino but that the majority of the components could very well be modeled in Bryce. Since youve posted first on this most interesting project, Im putting those images, which I have collected from around the Internet, at your disposal in the hope that they will help you also. I have compressed the images into a "zip" file which can be gotten from this link; The file weighs in a about 1.5 Mb and the images above are samples from it. Good luck with your project!

There's no such thing as doing it right or wrong in art. It's not the tool that makes the artwork, it's the artist. If it works the way you do it it works.

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Attached Link: http://www.btinternet.com~mark.hutchingsTheTimeMachine-36.jpg

Quest - You're absolutely right, when you have the exact and accurate dimensions, something like 3D Studio Max (and the others) would be perfect as, like you say, they are very precise. However, the Time Machine I'm working on is very inacurate and lends itself more to the 'tinkering' approach. As regards to your own Time Machine project, I can't thank you enough for the material you have provided - however please please please DO NOT STOP! This is because A. I'm working on the DreamWorks version, not the original one, and B. I can imagine a project which includes BOTH Time Machines... Thanks again, Mark.

i consider bryce a modeling program, you just have to know what to do with the primitives.

I think Bryce can be very accurate....You may not realise that although the sizes in the drop-down boxes only have 2 decimal points they can be given 3 or 4 decimal placings. eg: 10.02 can become 10.0222 and this will be reflected in your render. What's confusing about this is that when you go to re-size using actual numbers the read-off will have returned to the nearest whole 100th. eg: 10.02 changed to 10.0222 will return to either 10.02 or 10.03 when you look at it again. The answer of course is to record on paper any changes you make. Then delete the 100ths and re-enter 10.0227 for example. I have a printed sheet with x,y,z columns and use it a lot when I'm doing something critical. Bryce may have been marketed as a landscaper but we know different. I note also that on the Coral pages someone has included some nice buildings on the header graphic, presumably accepting at last that Bryce can do other things.

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster

And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...

DVGarage is a pretty awesome modeler for $99.