Enough discussion has gone on in the merchant forum about what some of us think is common knowledge is not known by the newer merchants. Therefore I am trying to put together a list of rules that one should follow in packaging their product for sale here at Renderosity. It will be as this thread is titled. While we have already gathered quite a few things for the list, I would like to hear from the customers what they would like included. Some examples are: 1. All packages include RSR's, png are optional, but not required. 2. All thumbnails to be 91x91. 3. All thumbnails for transparent items are to be rendered. 4. All version numbers to be 4 or 4.01, 5. no hardcoded source files, i.e. should begin with runtime NOT C:Pro......... 6. delimiters in texture locations should be : not 7. Read me files go in :runtime:readme:vendorname folder 8. OBJ files should go in Geometries folder 9. Texture files should go in the texture folder 10. Pose files should place the figure on the "ground" 11. Pose files should not have hip translated in the x or z direction, UNLESS they are part of a "Couple Pose" 12. Pose files should not include props, hair, or light. In other words, do not include smart props, hair or light in posing, UNLESS the pose is designed for that prop. That is a sample, now any other items that have cause you pain in purchasing a product that you thought shouldn't be done?

Readmes should be named 'productnamereadme.txt', NOT 'readme.txt' mac

Good idea, in fact I have been doing that, for example BB_LaceBustier_Readme.txt I will add that to the list!! Thanks

No advertising blurbs from the assorted mat pose file editors in the mat poses. If the mat pose editor puts this kind of thing in a mat pose file, why can't the programmers do something useful like put a "description of file" editor in the thing instead. I have not bought one of these editors because of these type of enforced ads.

I hadn't seen these. I have been using the free MAT Pose Edit and it doesn't do that, at least that I know of. Feel free to IM me with an example of one of these. Thank you.

Can I ask you, where do you want the Readme file to go...I now put it in my texture folder, so it can be found and deleted easily, I don't really care if it is deleted after received. It is only there for instruction anyway. I find too many readme's floating around, I wish they could all go in one place. So...where do you suggest. Sharen

Item 4 is important, but has 1 significant exception: If the product or individual item within product is known by design to be Poser 5 only, e.g. uses Dynamic Cloth, then and only then it should have version 5. That way the user's attention is drawn if they've picked the wrong one. Similarly if Poser AND ProPack MAT/MORs are present in the product, the ProPack-only items could have version 4.3 for similar reasons. Any discussion on where ReadScript Injection files should be stored? Some vendors are using !Daz folders, others are placing just about everywhere...

<7. Read me files go in :runtime:readme:vendorname folder>

I put my readme files in a CDI Readme subfolder of the PoserReadme's folder. The PoserReadme's folder has been there forever, perhaps started by DAZ/Zygote. I just prefer to utilize it rather than starting a new Readme folder in the Runtime folder.

<9. Texture files should go in the texture folder>

They should go in the textures folder. I've seen them put in a Texture folder which creates a new folder rather than the textures folder created by Poser.

<10. Pose files should place the figure on the "ground">

I personally prefer the hip be zeroed rather than the figure be on the ground, but that is just me.

I prefer merchants not include png files at all unless they are developing only for Pro Pack and P5 as these versions of Poser will generate pngs from the rsrs.

I prefer merchants not force their library folders to the top with !, ~, etc. I don't mind the use of these characters within the merchants folder to help push the most used files to the top.

Just my opinions. Of course, everyone has one, so it is unlikely everyone would adopt a standard. However, it would certainly be good for reference. :)

Beth

For my own personal injection files, I made a folder named "Morphs" under the library directory. My suggestion: unique texture names. Much like readme. Put BB_Bustier_Lace.jpg instead of just Lace.jpg. I like to move stuff around, and it's so frustrating when Poser or Correct Reference grab the wrong file because it has a non-descriptive name.

Reference 8 and 9. What about further specifics such as GeometriesClothingBB_LaceBustier or (similar for textures and other poser files where a path is specified)? Just a suggestion but categorization is helpful to help keep things organized. Some more examples: - CharactersClothingV3nameofclothingitem - CharactersV3nameofVickiCharacter - CharactersM3nameofMikeCharacter - PropsArchitecturenameofBuilding - PropsOrganicnameofPlant You get the idea.

What has been discussed on the Readme file is to put it in runtimereadmevendornamefolder This seems one of the more reasonable locations to keep the readmes from cluttering up the poser folder. layingback Good point on item 4 I will modify that with the exceptions. No we haven't but I wouldn't see why the !DAZ folder wouldn't be a good place, because the injection is injecting a morph into a DAZ figure, isn't it? DAZ has one for V3 and one for M3 inside of the !DAZ folder, the vendor could just add their own folder inside of the !DAZ folder. That would keep things clean. Now you know why I am asking the question here. I am just a facilitator of this process.

The suggestions are coming faster than I can answer! ;) GOOD POINTS everyone. I hoped for great feedback and I'm getting it. Rather than answer everyone, I will keep tabs and post a revised list in the near future. Keep them coming!!!! ;)

This was an excellent idea, BB!! I much prefer hearing from the buyers what they would like as standards for merchants. I especially like the capsces made about not putting characters in front of folders so the folders go to the top. As a buyer, this is quite irritating to me. Come on people, lets hear what you have to say!! Keep the suggestions coming!! :)

****

Well one thing I would like to see is the name of the character in front of the mat file for example - Kassandra tatto body or something to that effect.

In a world filled with causes for worry and anxiety...
we need the peace of God standing guard over our hearts and minds.

Jerry McCant

This is a Poser question?

yep!

I build all of my Poser stuff in Poser 4 PP SR3. How do I make a 4 or 4.01 compatible file using MAT Poses, morphs, alternate geometries, or whatever and be certain that it works in 4/4.01? Also, how do you create .RSRs? PP automatically creates .PNGS, no .RSRs to be seen in my PP libraries. Although I agree with all of this, instead of just making suggestions, how about also pointing to how to make these suggestions useful. ;) Also, for geometries, I always put them in vendorname/productname/. I don't see the point of putting them in Geometries:Weapons:Japanese:Swords:Stands... For anything other than P5 library hierarchy, it would be ridiculous and confusing.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

kuroyume0161, You can use P3DO to convert png to rsr (and vice versa) vendorname can be even more confusing unless vendors just do one type of merchandise and their name becomes synonomous with it (e.g., Fyrene = poses). I just offered suggestions but something more descript would be helpful. Adapting your suggestion, how 'bout at least product/vendor? :-)

That part will be included! First search freestuff area for laetia's MerchUtil. This program does many of the checks and will reset the version number to 4! 2nd do a search for Seno Software, they have a freebie in the free section called P3dO Explorer or Poser Explorer, add the plugins and you can batch change the png to RSRs and it has a very useful pattern renamer! These would be listed along with links as to where to get them!

"No we haven't but I wouldn't see why the !DAZ folder wouldn't be a good place, because the injection is injecting a morph into a DAZ figure, isn't it? DAZ has one for V3 and one for M3 inside of the !DAZ folder, the vendor could just add their own folder inside of the !DAZ folder. That would keep things clean." I think this is a good idea,it will help eliminate the need for multiple Inj pose files. I am going to start doing this with my future packs.

DON'T stick all the readmes off somewhere in nowheresville where they'll just copy over each other. :pffft: Even if they don't overcopy, I'm not going to go hunting anywhere else for a readme... only to find that it barely lists the copyright information rather than anything actually useful to know. Leave the readme for the product in the files for that product. Not all of us use installers. Some of us prefer to do our own installations, thank you, mostly because of stupid things such as over-copying or throwing files all over the landscape where they are nver seen again. Leave them together and tidy. DON'T use .doc files as readmes. I'm not going to copy a .doc file to a zipdisk and walk it over to this balky Windows box... praying that it will cooperate and open Word... only to find nothing but copyright information. Use .txt files which can be read on any machine. DON'T make restrictions as to orientation of hips in poses. Sheesh. Isn't that what pose information is supposed to include? Positions in space? Orientations? This MAT stuff is a later sludgeheap occupying my Pose file... and too many people just include color variants in order to pad the numbers of their MATs... thinking that customers are too stupid to know the difference. Unless it is a REAL change in pattern, don't make it a space-clogging MAT file, and don't try to sell me 20 textures when it is only one and a few minutes with the hue slider in PhotoShop. DON'T clog up my Camera and Face folders assuming that my Pose folder is full. It isn't. :determined grin of enemy commander: Leave the MATs as Poses so that your consumer can rename them and place them elsewhere if needed... and go in and delete them if they are useless. Remember file name limitations in length and path syntax. I spend far too many of my precious minutes renaming stuff so it will work. Unless your work is very good or I need it desperately, I often just don't bother (a great way to lose a customer is to irritate them!). Please don't assume that DAZ is the only company which makes models with injectable morphs, and that everything has to accomodate these models and these morphs. They are biggest and best known, but there are other makers struggling with the process. There are also a number of consumers who aren't thrilled with it, either. It is quite possible that a couple of years from now, another scheme will be favored. NO EXECUTABLES!!!!! Carolly the Opinionated

Sorry I didn't realise that the MP only sold Poser stuff. I assumed it was toys for everyone and therefore standards would apply to all items.

I hear ya on all points and agree with a lot. Just to clarify, I wasn't meaning to limit the hip orientation, just that there is no reason to move the x and z positions, UNLESS you are posing it with something else. Besides the standard pose file will not include body positions or orientations, so that could be whatever you have. Note: if you move the hip in the x or Z direction, then spin the body around the y-axis, instead of spining, it now moves in a circle, and this could be a very large cirle. Most customers don't like a pose that moves the figure some distance. At least that is what I have been told. They just want to pose the figure as is. I think what you said was valid, I didn't know if you understood what was written. No need to worry, I will clarify it in the final draft.

Sorry, pierrecolat. It does sell more than Poser. This is just some discussion that has been going on and off and back on for some time. We just thought it time to compile some of what customers want into a document so that all merchants have the same standards. We thought asking customers in the Poser forum would be one way of finding out what they like and what they don't like in Poser packages. I think that it would be a big help to have something like this for newer merchants or prospective merchants. Hell, even some of the older merchants might learn something! Right now there are standards only to that it works, not necessarily what format or where things are put, etc. So, some of the merchants are trying to nail that down a bit, so that we all can benefit from it.

Thank you both, PabloS and BlueBeard for the information! :) As for the where to put stuff in both Geometries and textures, that's going to be somewhat subjective. That was my point. Some items defy categorization or it can get too finitesimal after awhile to keep things organized. Sometimes, I find that going by vendor is easier, other times, yes, it is hard to remember what is what. If it comes down to it, it'll have to be a standard folder hierarchy adhered to or it will still be a mess. Time for the Poser File Structure Committee! ;P

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

kuroyume0161, They got themselves a committee for that!?! Too bad. Nothing will get done then. :-) But got to agree that some standard would be helpful in the long run. Pablo Chairman, Anti-Committee League :-)

Do you see any problem with putting mat files for created for other merchant items, such as clothes, hair, etc. into the original creator pose folder. For example: If I made some textures for one of BatLab items. What about just putting the mat poses into his folder for that item. I just looked and his is called Bat-RMP. I try to organize my mats like this and I think it just makes sense for merchants to package them that way. BTW - I take the damned MAT off mine as soon as I download them. I can't find anything with 500 files starting with MAT.

A small suggestion; in readme file, just information about the product and contact info. I just brought a couple of products, and over half the text of the readme file was a mess of x, o, etc. I thought it was corrupted, but the merchant said it was a logo. Please don't confuse the purchaers!

Sgiathalaich

Ok, here we go. MAT files: I'm with Carolly on this one. Do NOT put them in any folder except the Pose folder. I don't want to have to go hunting them down in the Camera, Hands, Face, lights, etc. folders. I want them where I can FIND them. So I can delete them, rename them, move them or whatever. It is beyond annoying not to be able to find them because they're in the camera folder or the hands folder or someplace stupid like that. Readme files: I don't have MS word or any other program that will read .doc files. Make them .txt files. Put the product name on them. Readme.doc will just get deleted. Readme.txt will get overwritten. MyProductReadme.txt will get filed in the appropriate location. Also, include your name, your contact info and what the heck the product is for - if it's a V3 product SAY SO. I can't tell you how many items I have that I can't use because I don't remember what they go to. This especially applies to clothing textures and hair textures. Geometry files: Put them in the Geometries folder. I don't care WHERE in the Geometries folder you put them, but I darn sure do NOT want them in the characters, hair or props folders. The Geometries folder is there for a reason people. Use of special characters (!~+ etc) in the folder names: Don't do it. One of the BEST ways to insure that I will NEVER buy from you again. I organize my libraries the way I want them organized, not the way YOU want them organized. (I'm still extremely pissed off at DAZ about this). Texture names: Please don't name your textures things like "black" "blue" etc. If nothing else add your intials or something so that when I run Poser or Correct Reference it doesn't wind up applying a brown horse texture to a brown eye. Do you know how many texture maps I have that are named "black.jpg"? 15. A horse texture, 4 dress textures, 3 hair textures, and two boot textures. Gimme a break here, would ya? Let's not even discuss how many blues, reds and greens there are. Sheesh, we're talking a LOT of editing here just to make sure things get applied where they're supposed to. Texture placement: Stick 'em in the textures folder. If they're clothing textures put them in textures:clothes:nameofproduct or something like that. Then the black dress textures won't get mixed up with the black horse textures PLUS I'll be able to apply them to the correct item when I export my poser scenes for rendering (pfft, yeah right, like I'm gonna render in Poser... Puhleeze) Kate the Konsumer

DAZ puts their readme files in the ReadMe's folder. It would be easier if everyone did that. Perhaps merchants should organize stuff by categories rather than merchant names? (Mike, Vicki, MilGirls, etc.) There's nothing more annoying than looking through 7GB of texture files, trying to find something. I'll know the name of a character, not who made it.

I prefer to put the readme file in the zip file all by itself so it stands out. When you open one of my zip files you'll see a Runtime folder and a readme file. If you can't figure that one out. You have no business using a computer in the first place. ;-) I also MUCH prefer to place the texture files in my Geometries folder. Anyone who uses Poser a lot will tell you that having to deal with the extra Textures folders is a total pain in the butt. -ScottA

takes notes

Here is me, the person who buys this stuff... I don't like having textures in any folder OTHER than my textures folder. I don't like having readme's in my textures folder. I don't like having readme's anywhere but a readme folder where I can FIND them. I don't like readmes that contain no info! I don't like readmes that are named readme.txt. I don't like products I have to unzip then copy into places where they should be. (i.e. xyzproductruntime....) I don't like Mat or Pose files in my Cameras folder. I don't like hardcoded bits in my files. I don't like products where I can't identify which figure they are for. I don't like additional object files that vanish into places unknown and which I then can never find again. (/objects/prodname !! How difficult is that?) I don't like morphs that vanish the same way (/morphs/prodname) I don't like blank thumbnails. I don't like P4 & P4PP/P5 files mixed in one folder I don't like V3/V2 (M2/M3) mixed in one folder. I absolutely positively DETEST ! & ++ etc naming of folders So there you have it. Make it easy for me to work with stuff. Granted, even if it's not done this way, if I like what I see, I will likely buy it no matter how it's organized. To be honest, I would even prefer textures to go into a PRODUCT folder, rather than a merchantname folder or just into the textures folder. That way I would know exactly where to look if I have to find something. But I won't like having to shift stuff around and think twice about it.

Quote - If you can't figure that one out. You have no business using a computer in the first place.

I hate to say it, ScottA, but that comment makes me want to slap you, and slap you HARD. If you sell something, you make it as EASY as possible for people to use and find stuff. Especially if you have to assume that people who buy it may not be as computer literate / proficient as you would like them to be. It has nothing whatsoever to do whether I can or can't "figure that out". I can find anything I bloody well want to find, and then some. I just CHOOSE not to want to go searching all over the place for textures that may be in a geometries folder where no one in their right mind would look when there is the OBVIOUS place called gasp TEXTURES!!

Silke

ScottA, you lost me on the last part... What would be the benefits of having textures in the geometries folder?!

I read all the stuff about organising the MAT files (and other poser files) and was wondering about a little thing.... Could it be possible to assign, at the beginning of a MAT file (not in the filename, but in the code), the product on which it should work. It could be then possible to create a little program (python or something else) to create a "dynamic" library, showing only the MAT files (or pose, or figures, ...) working for a selected figure. This would be a great time saving and you could find free stuff you installed and forgot somewere in you gigabyte library...

Some really great input, and I learned several things. Well the first thing to be changed from the list is the name Suggested Standards for Merchants by Customers! After I thought about it, it started by merchant complaints on stuff that they had bought. So, it was really the customer side of the merchant that started this, and we are continuing it on here. Sometime today I will work on a draft and repost it here formalizing your suggestions. But, keep them coming anyway. I will be checking back often.

I have another one... If MAT files start with MAT and POSE files start with POSE then we won't have to hunt so much. Oh yeah, I don't like poses and mat's mixed either. If I look for a MAT, I will scroll to MAT's, if I look for a POSE I will scroll to POSE Very very often I rip out the pose files and shove them into another folder and (if it lets me) rename a "XYZ MAT" folder to MAT for XYZ Oh yeah, if something has ISSUES with different versions of Poser, please say so in the readme. I know some stuff will not work in Poser 5, some will but it will come out differently. If it was never tested on P5 (or P4 for that matter) then please please say so. I remember a girl having real issues with Transpond's flowers. The tulips rendered with black smudges and what have you. For example: I've recently bought Versa Bench and - God help me - used the Firefly renderer. The result was.... lets just say I won't be doing THAT again. However, there was nothing (unless I didn't spot it) to say that it would result in bits bulging in all directions. (I am not kidding). In fact, I don't recall there being a mention of whether or not it would work with P5. Such info is vital. Really really vital. For the simple reason... if I were a beginner, I might not know that P4 renderer may do it because it's totally different to Firefly. But if the readme said "Not tested in P5" then at least I know it may not work. BTW this is in NO way meant to discourage anyone from getting Transpond's Versa Bench. It's an awesome piece and very versatile, and I'm not regretting the purchase at all. I just render it in the P4 renderer now that I'm aware of the Firefly thing.

Silke

The "bulging" is something P5 does to certain objects. Simply turn off "Smooth Polygons" for the offending object OR do it in Render Settings in general. It should have been mentioned in the Readme, yes, but it doesn't REALLY mean it won't work in FireFly (or P5). As long as you turn off the Smoothing it'll work fine.

i think this thread is a great idea,lots of great suggestions here and i agree with all of them,also a lot of the suggestions are not only useful for mercheants for their packages but also for help in reorganizing the dreaded runtime folder :) i have learned a few tricks to help me tidy mine up a lot..lol...thanks peeps,i can't think of anything that hasn't already been suggested,but wanted to say what a great idea this thread is :)

I know I see a lot of freebies that don't follow any of the above. We don't require any of these for freebies, but it would be nice if people who are comfortable with Poser try to follow these as well. When I help with approving the freebies, I'll sometimes point out to people ways to make their freebies easier to use. I make sure to stress that it's not required, I've found that the people who are generous enough to donate free stuff usually appreciate learning the subtle nuances to make their files more usable as well. Also, if anyone needs help with how to zip up files for extraction to the proper folders: http://www.fallencity.net/tut-posi/p-packaging.php Great thread, BB!

Ernyoka1 - thank you for the tip! I'll try that. :) Silke (Who wants a camera right NOW because the light outside is incredible and there is a tree in the full BLAZE of red lit just right and........ I HAVE NO CAMERA AT WORK cries and stares at the tree some more....)

Silke

I thought of a couple of things after reading everyone's responses. 1. Bumpmaps - there should be a standard on this. I have several packages that I love dearly, but they include bumpmaps, and the bumpmaps either need to be converted, or have the wrong file in them. It takes my system forever even though I tell it to not look for files it can't find. I wonder if the default file should be without bumpmaps and if the merchant wants it, a second to apply bumpmaps. Most often I don't use them, because the camera is not close enough for the viewer to tell the difference. Just a thought, I thought I would post it hear and see what kind of reaction I get! 2. is that there are 2 thoughts that are opposite in this thread. This involves the MAT Pose files. A lot of sites require that these start with MAT. But here they don't and quite frankly they can get confusing. Now one person has said they want this, but several other have said that they wish is would start with the product name. In either case, it still needs to have MAT in it, so that one knows what it is. Any further thoughts on this?

Another thought is postwork in promo images in the store. I don't think these should be postwork, other than composition. They can point to their gallery for examples of postwork images. UNLESS you are selling a postwork product, i.e. hair painting kit, or something like that. In general, I would think that most customers do not want to see postwork in promo images, they would much rather see what they are getting straight out of the box, so to speak. PS, I think freebie are where future merchants come from, so it would be good to encourage them to try some of these things in their freebie stuff. So, when this is finished, we might post a link to it on the freestuff submittal page or something like that! What do you think Crescent?

Oh yes, postwork! I too think there should be no postwork on promo pictures, except for compositing, and even in those cases it should be noted on the picture. Bumpmaps are tricky, since there's no way a pro pack /P5 user can generate .bum files. Well yes I think _dodger once described a way, but it was something that included a LOT of hassle. On the other hand, I guess a jpg bumpmap gives a p4 user a lot of hassle converting them, MAT poses won't work if there's a jpg bump in them, will they? I have no solution to that one. Another aspect is that .bum's are HUGE compared to a jpg. Speaking of the PPP/P4 difference.. . In MAT poses there is something with 2 0's that makes the file work/not work in Poser 4... Or?

Add two more items: Please say what platforms it's been tested on. Mac/Win and P4/P5. There are some oddities in some things when running under P5 or Mac that don't show on the P4/Win platform. I love some products that just don't render in Firefly (locks it up), I'll still get them, but the first time I render and I have to kill P5 and restart really gets me. Also, please do include a .png file. Not optional. I delete .rsr files now, since P5 uses .png files. Try to make your product as broad based for the various platforms as possible.

Re: .png vs .rsr There's a reason that the .rsr is included and the .png is not. ALL versions of Poser (4/PPP/5) will read the .rsr file. Pro Pack and P5 will convert them to .png. Poser 4 will not read .png and a LOT of folks are still using P4 only. The ones that make me nuts are those that don't include .rsr OR .png, just the object (.cr2,pp2, etc). I hate looking at that shruggy guy cuz it means I have to load the product and resave it to get an image. I shouldn't have to do that. Kate

Thanks Kate! That was the reason that I originally wrote it that way. If you have PP or P5, it will generate the png from the RSR, but not vice versa! It seems that the majority of the customers have P4, and that was the reason for this. I was going to add, later in the document about PP and P5 products, state png, but no RSR, and version number of 4.2 and/or 5 respectively.

Now that's my problem - testing on P4 as compared to PP and P5. I have PP and P5. Is there any way to install P4 again, in a separate location without PP and not have it interfere with the PP version? As for Mac testing, wish that I still had my G4. ;0) Still, the investment wouldn't be worth it unless I'm selling like a hundred of each of my products. The most inexpensive Mac that'll run both P4 and P5 well is probably $2000 or more.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Okay, here's something that's more of a general suggestion. My Pose list is huge, and I use P4. It takes me about 30 seconds just to scroll to the bottom of it (yes, I know, get PBooost. I've tried it, and I can't use it cuz win98 always locks the stupid folders). Now, I'm aware that there are limitations to the number of folders Poser can address (something like 250), so I believe that merchants should definitely keep this in mind when deciding whether to create a new folder or not. If it can be avoided, do it. For example, if you created a mat for another product, put the mat file with the product, don't create a new one. And here's one more customer preference: I really do love the zips that auto install the product, if I unzip it to the poser directory. However, I rarely do this because of the inevitable readme.txt that will overwrite whatever is sitting in my Poser directory. Instead, I just unzip the product to it's own directory, then cut and paste the runtime directory to the Poser 4 directory. That way I have a product-named directory with it's attendant readme. I wouldn't mind changing this habit if merchants adopted a readme location standard, but I'm not holding my breath.

The eMac is $799, throw in an additional $99 for memory and you should be fine. I run Poser 5 on a Mac slower than that.

ernyoka asked, 'Speaking of the PPP/P4 difference.. . In MAT poses there is something with 2 0's that makes the file work/not work in Poser 4... ' Yes, there is, and it's important. It's not a P4/PP4 issue, but a P4/P5 issue. Listen up and I'll explain. If you make MAT files by hacking the text file or copying the materials from a cr2 (or from other people's MATs), you . This also has thew advantarun the risk of not getting the 'double zero' line in your MAT. When you add a texture to an object WITHIN Poser and save it to the library, Poser automatically adds this double zero line after the texture path. textureMap ":runtime:textures:room creator:macpaper01.jpg" 0 0 If you just copy the material blocks from the cr2 into a text editor, then add the texture path manually, you won't have the double zero line (unless you add it yourself). It's not in the cr2 if there isn't a texture already applied. This means that the MAT file will NOT work in Poser 5. A full material block should look like this. material back_wall { KdColor 1 1 1 1 KaColor 0 0 0 1 KsColor 0 0 0 1 TextureColor 1 1 1 1 NsExponent 100 tMin 0 tMax 0 tExpo 0 bumpStrength 1 ksIgnoreTexture 0 reflectThruLights 1 reflectThruKd 0 textureMap ":runtime:textures:room creator:macpaper01.jpg" 0 0 bumpMap NO_MAP reflectionMap NO_MAP transparencyMap NO_MAP ReflectionColor 1 1 1 1 reflectionStrength 1 } So, the answer is - DON'T copy materials from cr2s to make MATs, unless you know what you're doing. Kate said, 'Texture names: Please don't name your textures things like "black" "blue" etc. If nothing else add your intials or something' Exactly. Look at the material block above. It's from one of my products. There are 3 things to consider. 1. The file path - NOT "C:/CuriousLabs/Poser/Runtime/etc, but ":runtime:textures:etc". A lot of people don't have poser on their C drive or in the Curious Labs folder. 2. File path length - Here's a quote from the DAZ brokering advice. 'If the texture paths are more than 60 characters long, including the extension, Macintosh will cut them off. Texture maps have the biggest problem with this. You can use a Global Find/Replace to eliminate part of the path to shorten it if necessary. Find "Runtime:Textures:" and replace with nothing' 3. Texture name - I add the prefix 'mac' (for maclean) to all my texture names. So, instead of 'wood01.jpg' it's 'macwood.jpg'. scottA, Textures in Geometries??? Oh, right! So THAT'S why Textures is called Textures and Geometries is called Geometries. Silly me! mac

Huge typo. The 3rd paragraph should read If you make MAT files by hacking the text file or copying the materials from a cr2 (or from other people's MATs), you run the risk of not getting the 'double zero' line in your MAT. When you add a texture to an object WITHIN Poser and save it to the library, Poser automatically adds this double zero line after the texture path. mac

Luckily for me, I understood the "0 0" before even considering MAT pose files and make certain that they exist when a texture exists. These are Mac-specific, I think. What kind of eMac are you talking about, stewer? My Power Mac G4 was a 933MHz with 1GB and OS 10.2.1 when I sold it (for need of paying bills and mortgage!). I'm sorry I did, but was hoping to get a dual G5 eventually. ;) But, I'd also need, if I wanted to do so, the MacOS version of P5. P4 and PP will install on either Win or Mac, right? Now we're at about $1200! You guys just love seeing me spend money!! ;0P

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I hate lack of continuity in sub-folder names for any particular product (tex under the vendor's name, character or prop file under the product's name and MAT files under something completely different). As stated in previous notes, it makes finding a texture, for example, a complete nightmare. Make the d/l zip name correspond to the product. Often, rather than search for ages through runtime, I'll go into my stored zips, open the one I can't find the location of a texture for, and simply read it from the folder path info. But if the zip hasn't got a descriptive name, it makes life more interesting (I've rediscovered a few wonderful products by opening the wrong zip), though makes the hunt more frustrating. Include a reference in the file name to the character a bit of clothing is designed for. We should come up with a standard one or two letter code in clothing and prop names to designate whether it is conformable or should be parented. Pose sets should have a similar code to indicate which character they're for, and if the user should have IK and/or limits on or off.

Read "and hair" in all of the above.

"scottA, Textures in Geometries??? Oh, right! So THAT'S why Textures is called Textures and Geometries is called Geometries. Silly me!" That's like saying there is supposed to be a separate drawer half full for my socks. And a separate drawer half full for my underwear. Instead of one combined drawer for both. What do you do when you run out of drawers? Build another dresser full of more half-filled drawers? It's not necessary,a waste of space, and not efficient. You can't forget what geometry a texture belongs to if it's all in the same folder.....can you? If you go looking for the files to edit them. You don't need to go through the extra Poser->RunTime-Textures->Subfolder name->texture name to find it. That's a whole lotta uneccesary mouse clicking. It'a already bad enough to have a separate libraries folder to deal with. There's no reason to toss in several extra folders for textures on top of that. If you'd rather do all of that mouse clicking. Go ahead. Knock yourself out. -ScottA "There is no spoon"

Ok, here's the skinny on the "00" thing. Poser 4 will read the files with or without the "00". Pro pack and P5 will not, the "00" is essential for use in PP and P5. And since it makes no difference at all to P4, including the "00" will allow the file to be read by all three versions of Poser. Kuroyume: Yes, it's very easy and simple to install Poser 4 without affecting other installations. Simply install it to a folder with a different name. Example: My Pro Pack is installed to D:Poser 4 and when I need to test something in Poser without propack I install to D:Poser 4 Testing It doesn't really matter what drive you install it on or what folder name you use. It will install just fine. I install everything to my D or E drive since my C drive is only a little over 5 gigs and all I keep there is my OS and peripheral drivers (printer, scanner, etc). I use my D: drive for graphics software and my E: drive for things like word processor, html programs, sound programs, games, utilities, etc. Kate

"If you'd rather do all of that mouse clicking. Go ahead. Knock yourself out." I will. At least the textures will be with all of the other textures as expected, instead of where one lone vendor decides to put them over and above where CL designed them to go to begin with. As far as the dresser drawer theory goes, I have so many socks that my drawers are full anyway, without combining them with my undies. :D Silke pretty much summed up my annoyances, grievances, wants, needs, etc.... My biggest gripe has always been with the ! and ++ for folder names. Major ugh, guys! When DAZ implemented this practice for V3 and M3 I nearly went through the roof. Great thread, Bluebeard. Thanks for allowing us to share what we'd like to see for Merchant standards. :) Brynna, wishing she had a bigger dresser....

Brynna

"Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is almost always that somebody screwed up." - House

Dell Desktop XPS 8940 i9, two 14 tb External drives, 64 GB DDR4 RAM, NVidia RTX 3060 12 GB DDR5.

Monitor - My 50 inch Hitachi TV. Works great!

Daz Studio - whatever the latest version is. Haven't decided if I'm upgrading to Poser 13 or not.

Photoshop.

I'm creating a Steampunk Tarot Deck. There's an older version in my Gallery, then a newer version.

ScottA, But Textures in the Geometries folder? Let me ask you this. Do you own tools? Because if you do, I'll know where to find the ketchup. :-)

I see where ScottA is going here with textures in the Geometries folder, but it is the convention set up by CL, as already said. Otherwise it would have to be renamed "Geometries&Textures" so that everybody gets it (eventually). That would screw up about, oh, seven billion already existing products. You might want to rethink that, ScottA! ;) Okay, stewer, I have the eMac (with SuperDrive - Yeah!). The only way to get Poser 5 for Mac is at CL, correct? Will look into it later tonight. Now it's time to relax with Junkyard Wars and Enterprise, thanke ye very much.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Ok the forum ate my last message. Probably best. :P Basically, I can find my socks in the dark. And I don't keep them with my feet. Or my feet with the socks. Actually if I were to go by my sock drawer, I'd be convinced I only have one foot, because my washing machine lives on a steady diet of socks... (I'm winning, I buy 2 identical pairs. That way if it eats one of each, I still have a matching pair. HAH!) The last thing I want is to have to deal with lone socks in the middle of my undies. Aaaaanyway.... I have maybe gone into the geometries folder 20 times since I've used poser. And I've used it for years. I go almost daily to textures, be it to add something, or smooth something, or try something out... I don't care where you want to keep your textures. You're free to do with them what you want and to put them where you want. But if you want to sell items other people use, you better make damn sure you're putting the stuff where they look for it. Not where you want it to be, but where people LOOK for it. I'd say at least 75% of poser owners don't even know a geometries folder exists, nor where to look for it. But they know where their textures are, because there is a folder called TEXTURES. Hell I know a lot of people who are pretty durn lost when it comes to find the C: drive! Yes, it would be nice if everyone were 100% computer savvy, but the reality is - maybe about 25% are. The rest aren't. And you have to make it easy for all levels of proficiency, not just the 25% who give out their phone number in Binary. PabloS - ROFLMAO!

Silke

Part of the problem with putting textures anywhere else other than the :runtime:textures folder is this is where poser is set to look first. Yes, you can put them almost anywhere, but why would you. There are enough newbies out there it is a lot easier to try to follow the convention that was first setup, that is all, nothing more, nothing less. The same argument could be said for MAT Pose files, one guy puts all of his clothing textures, etc in the light folder, then all of his makeup and people textures in the camera folder. And put just his pose files in the pose folder. However, customers state that they want them in the pose folder, if they want them there, let them move it. While this may have wisdom, it is really not up to us to reinvent the wheel. We are just trying to document what the convention is. If you want to move them, that is fine. However if someone moves textures out of the :runtime:textures folder, Poser won't be able to find them, without recoding the MAT Pose file and I don't think we want our customers to have to do that. Anyway, yes your points do make some sense, but not to what we are working on. What we are trying to do is to establish the norm. As entitled, this is Suggested Standards, this means that we will encourge these, but there is nothing that says that someone can't do something else. What we are trying to do is to come to an agreement on basic locations. At this point it appears that there are many that would disagree with you. Obviously, you have thought this out and it makes sense to you. But, I doubt that most would agree with you, so I will not be changing the proposal! Sorry about that!

It's all pretty simple. Poser has folders for certain items. DAZ3D adds the ReadMe's folder. It makes sense to put your readme's there.

Readme's belong in the Readme folder as stated by many members and in the nice graphic displayed above.

re: Readme files... Something to keep in mind... Daz distributes all of thier products as executable installer files. That means two things, relative to this discussion... 1) the installer program 'installs' the product, so there's no need for 'installation instructions' in the readme file. 2) the installer program will 'display' the readme file, so the customer doesn't (initially) need to go looking for it and can always find it in the (Daz-created) ReadMe's folder later for reference. ...the products you purchase from Renderosity do not use an executable installer program, they come packaged as zip files. The readme file has (or should have) "Installation Instructions" in it. Logically, a customer would read the readme file (including the installation instructions) before installing the product. It therefore doesn't make much sense to put the readme file into a subfolder. I create my packages like so: ProductName_Runtime.zip <-- contains the full Runtime directory structure of the product. ProductName_xxx.zip <-- contains ProductName_Runtime.zip, license.txt and ProductName_Readme.txt ...when you unzip ProductName_xxx.zip, you get the readme file, license file and the runtime zip. The installation instructions in the readme file will tell you to copy the runtime zip file to your Poser directory and unzip that there. Anyway, I know that a lot of packages just come as one big zip file where the readme is included (somewhere in there), but that just doesn't make sense to me from a 'new user' point of view (obviously once you've installed your millionth Poser package, you'll have a pretty good idea of how to do things without referencing any installation instructions, but we need to consider the new users). Just out of curiousity, does anyone here simply download things directly to thier Poser directory and unzip them there? Or do you download to some storage place, unzip there, then copy the Runtime folder over to your Poser directory? (I'm guessing 90+% do it the second way).

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

Good thread. I heartily agree on the !!!'s and +++'s and whatnot. DO NOT do this. (Please) I have no problem with the vendor creating a folder with their name. (Personally, I would actually prefer it. If I remember a dress I bought from merchant XXX but not the name, I can just go to their folder, as opposed to sifting through a large folder of Victoria's Clothing since I didn't remember the name. It also helps enormously in crediting. No matter where you put it, I will move it. But if I forget to, 6 months down the line I will probably not credit you 'cause I have zero memory anymore.) As for textures, I move everything to a folder for the merchant. My only major peeve is if I bouth 4 shirts from one merchant, and instead of going into a folder for "MerchantX" or even my less preferred M3 Clothing, I get four new folders in my textures folder called Shirt 1, Shirt 2, etc. This comes from back in the pre-Mat file days, but I still want to be able to find what is in there without going through 1000 folders. Just my 2 cents.

Spanki..yeah I install to a temp folder. The installation process for me is so painful now. I use ProPack. Anything to make this easier would help. _Install to temp folder (daz stuff too) _Hunt down the readme and glance at it _Set two copies of Explorer side by side, one to my temp directory and one open to poser/runtime _Drag Geometries to poser/runtime _Search in textures to be sure there are no .bum files. _If there are .bum files right-click and sendto photopaint and convert to jpg _Drag Textures to textures _Open P3DO Explorer and go through each library folder and tell P3DO to convert rsr to png _when that's done use Explorer's search to find all leftover .rsr and delete them _run Correct Reference on every item in temp libraries _fix any problems CR finds _Go through each folder and figure out where I want it in my runtime/libraries _rename folders to my convention _if files can be merged into existing folders, be sure there are no name clashes and rename files as necessary _use a renamer program to rename extensions where necessary _move folders into my runtime/libraries _pray I did everything right and didn't forget anything. -------------- The biggest problems I have are: _.obj files not in geometries. I have to create a directory in Geometries for the object and load the cr2 or pp2 into a text editor to change the reference by hand. _missing or misspelled texture names (this includes textures the vendor didn't put in runtime/textures). Slows CR to a crawl. Takes sleuthing to correct. I suggest every vendor run Correct Reference on their own files first. _duplicate texture names. Won't be spotted until it's too late. AND THESE HAVE TO BE FIXED BY HAND. Please NO GENERIC NAMES FOR TEXTURES. (there, that feels better) _readme files buried deep in nested folders. BTW, I found a good dozen readme folders. Readme, Readmes, Read me in various locations Poser, poser/runtime, poser/readme, poser/runtime/readme/read me. I finally gave up and just delete 'em after I glance at 'em. -------------- Naming Texture folders. I think it's best if the runtime/texture/folder is the name of the vendor. I have a few reasons for suggesting that actually. But I'm tired of typing already. LOL

Maybe Ron Knights (aka Bobby_Boucher) only buys and uses DAZ products and only uses things which self-install wherever a marketing monkey has put them... but most of us buy and use products from a wide variety of sources and some of us are intelligent enough to want to put files where WE please. Even with DAZ products, I don't use their installer. I self-extract to a custom folder and do my own installation. Otherwise you get Vicki bits in Zygote Character, Zygote Characters, DAZ Character, DAZ Characters, and a half dozen other places, some of which might possibly include "V" or "Vicki" as part of their name. Who needs to search all over the darkside of the moon for a particular Vicki character, when all of them can be in one nice tidy folder? If any readme goes into the generic Poser readme file... it will never be seen again. I don't go there. I doubt if most people make daily treks to their readme Folder to see what has been copied over lately. I put the readmes with each appropriate file when I unzip the package. Also, I don't deliberately put textures into Runtime. They stay outside in my Poser Folder under a neatly set-up series of folders and subfolder. It may take Poser a hair longer to find them... but I don't have gold.jpg overwriting itself all the time, and I don't have a bloated Runtime only good for bragging rights because it is too fat to run a job. I've started putting the textures for various garments in the main folder for that garment, even if the textures are by another artist. If all the textures for PhilC's Fantasy Wrap are in one folder with the wrap and all the textures for SergeMarck's Consulat Dress are with the dress it makes loading them from the Materials Room that much quicker. Carolly

Other then what has already been mentioned, my two biggest things are this: File list in the readme file. That way if I ever run into a "missing" file, I can consult the readme (if I can find it) and see if it was included and where the heck it went. The rsr vs. png thing has already been addressed. It is very important ;) My BIGGEST peeve is version errors...absolutely no reason for them. I am on P4 and whether it is a character, prop or pose/mat file all you need to do to prevent this is make sure that the version number is at either 3.0 or 4.0. Anything higher then that and you get that stupid, freaking, crash making version error. BIG PET PEEVE!!!! I cannot tell you how many products I have installed that I am going to have to go through and fix myself, I should NOT have to do this. I paid money for the products, I should not have to go through and correct these. If the merchants don't know about this, I would hope that the beta testers would report it when they run into it. Please make sure that whomever you have beta testing, you have enough testers that each version of Poser is covered. It will save you grief in the long run that is for sure :) Poser 4 is not as forgiving as ProPak for some things and what works in PP may not work correctly in Poser 4 believe it or not ;) Just had an example of that come up the other day while I was testing something. Great thread by the way and about time!! Pendy

As for the textures part... All my textures, whether it's for free items or for my MP items, go in a folder, in Textures, named TrekkieGrrrl. Likewise, all my geometry files (that'll be the obj's) goes into a folder, in geometries, called TrekkieGrrrl. MOST of my stuff ends up in a props folder called TrekkieGrrrl too. I have made a few deviations from that course, and even (sorryyyyyyy) made a folder once starting with --. The few items I have put in folders other than TrekkieGrrrl are the ones I can't find when I need them LOL There are some exceptions to that rule lately. I am now trying my luck at Daz and the folder(s) there will most likely NOT be called TrekkieGrrrl but something more related to the product, as you are more anonymous at Daz than on this MP. When I credit, I also allways credit Daz if it's something I have bought there, and not the artist who actually MADE the stuff. Oh and I think that when ScottA is talking about geometries, he's actually referring to the character folder? That's the only place where it would make sense to go to EDIT something. Some of the japanese artists also put their textures there, together with the cr2. And sometimes even the obj. It makes moving stuff with PBooost an absolute NIGHTMARE! Please don't put it all in one "drawer".

Pendarian was posting while I was typing, so I will just add this: The file list is SUPPOSED to be in the ReadMe. I have had a product fail Rosity's testing becourse I forgot that list, so it is something they DO check for. That said, it is a relatively new thing, so older products may not contain the file list.

On Installation - I download the zip to where I want to store it, and then extract it to the runtime in Poser. I use 6 runtimes - Generic bog standard Poser runtime, V2, V3, M2, M3, Scenes. So if it's a building - it goes in the scenes runtime, V3 into the V3 runtime and so on. Then of course I end up with V2 stuff in the V3 folder - which I don't always clean up. I don't always know if I can safely move stuff, I don't always know if I have moved all the bits I need to move because I don't usually know what goes with what. I found out the hard way that V3 / M3 figures need to be installed at the top level runtime or they don't work, so I ended up with 2 installations of them. In a way, I'm rethinking the whole thing again. But so God help me - the organizing of my files isn't made easy. If I buy something, that means I want to use it right away. Without having to copy / paste stuff all over the place. Then some bright spark goes and sticks stuff into a vendornameruntime... folder and I have to go and pull the runtime out of there and stick it where it belongs. Another gives me a huge long list of files and where I have to put them. Manually. (I HATE that) Another assumes that all my stuff is in C:Program FilesMetacreationsPoserruntime............. - Trust me, it's not. I can live with the extracting to a temp folder to make it easy to copy stuff to where you want it. But if you do that, you use a Renderosityruntime folder please, and then ALL packages should go there. Not just the odd one. It's the odd ones that really mess stuff up. I won't like the above, but I can live with it.

Silke

I unzip most everything I have to a temp folder, and rearrange things to where they make sense to me. I don't user any folders with the artist's (merchant's) name. It's much easier to find stuff by category or Poser character. We have clothes made for Vicki, etc. I use the ReadMe's folder for readme's because it is a good place to start.

I have been known to put the stupid ! file names on things but only if it it for a DAZ product that already has it .. That way it tries to install it in the same place. "!Mat M3" for example .. If I made another file called "MAT M3" then those people that haven't changed the file to exclude the ! will have another folder, I have assumed that most people haven't changed it so it is a question of majority rules and all that. But I will never create a ! on my own ... Also, for MAT files, please include the name in there in soem fashion .. Hair files are the worst. I can't tell you how many "MAT Blonde" files I have ... just a "MAT Flip Blonde" would be good. I also do agree about the textures in the textures folder etc ...

Just to let you know, we are proceeding with this. I have made several versions and we are still reviewing these in the merchants forum, building a concensus. Once this is done, we will post it here in a new thread for a review. We hope to post it here in a new thread, with it near a final draft. Thank you for all your comments, you have been heard! BlueBeard AKA Leo

Just adding to the list:

Absolutely no "generic" texture names. As was said earlier, how many "eyes_blue.jpg" textures do people have? C'mon, at least put the character name in front of it, such as: yuma_eyes_blue.jpg.
Triple-check the MAT poses for path names. I can't count how many times I've had to correct MAT poses that had pathing information like "f:my filesgraphicstexturesstuffblack.jpg" Or maybe this should fall under the "testing" done by the staff here.
Name your textures with the same name as your character. Six months after I've extracted everything, how do I know that the "BLmanHead.jpg" texture goes with the "Elfin King" cr2 character? Name the texture "ElfinKing_Head1.jpg" instead.
ALWAYS zip file from your "Runtime" folder with "use folder names" checked. I don't want to have to read instructions in a readme file to know that that the bldress.obj has to extracted to runtime:geometries:john:clothing:dresses. On a similar note, double-check this. I hate opening zip files to see that the folder names all start with the same name, such as: johnruntimegeometriesdress johnruntimelibrariescharacter johnruntimetexturesdress If you extract these files, yep, every single one will go to c:program filesposer 4runtimejohnruntime... and not the proper places! By the way, is there any chance that these standards can be applied to free stuff as well? I know that people will say that free stuff is free, so who cares. But, once providers get into the habit of zipping their free files, they may not change their habit when zipping items for sale.

I forgot one thing: No one has brought up the issue of bump maps. What is "best":

Leave the texture as a jpg and reference it in the cr2 character or MAT pose and assume that everyone is using Pro Pack or Poser 5 and can use jpg files as bump maps.
Leave is as a bum file and add 20 to 30M to the zip file... or more. Just how big does a 4000x4000 file become when it's converted to .bum format?
Name it "_bum.jpg" with directions (in the readme) for people to convert it to .bum format before using the cr2 character or MAT poses.

My preference with bump maps: name it _bum.jpg, with directions to convert if necessary, and do not reference it in the CR2. Then have 2 MAT poses, one for PP/P5 that calls for a jpg, and one for P4 that calls for a bum. I'm wierd. I'm on P4, so I convert to bum, then resave the bum as a jpg (so it's now green and red, but in jpg format) and make the MAT files reference the jpg. It's way smaller and works the same. (Thanks, Dodger, for this trick!) The only problem is that it can no longer be applied through the material dialog, or Poser tries to BUM it again. It has to be put on with a MAT file.

I have both Poser 4 & Poser 5. I convert all jpg bump maps to bum, then save them with the original file, and rezip everything for a new CD Burn. Later, if I need to reinstall, I delete the bum bump maps if I'm installing in Poser 5.

I'm throwing this out there cause I haven't seen any mention of it. Has anyone seen/heard of what kind of library scheme Daz|Studio will use/demand. I assume it will be able to use the runtime scheme ... but that's just an assumption. Will D|S have its own, perhaps different, library scheme?

I think we'll find that out when it goes to public beta :) Unless Steve wants to shed some light on it... Oooohhh Steeeee-heeeeeve.....

Silke

Small pet peave. I have some texture files that are *.psd and *.cdr. Those are Photoshop and Coreldraw specific files, and I don't use Photoshop, and I am sure a lot of other people don't either. Also, could someone enlighten me as to what a *.pict file is and why someone would make them?

a pict file is a Macintosh Pict file. It is sort of like the PC bmp file. You will need to convert it to use it.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Suggested Standard for Merchants by Merchants