Well, always been in the x86 world. Thinking about getting a G5 Q1-04 and I do not have a clue about them. Can I still use my regular PC SVGA monitors, what about Anti-virus and Firewall software, disk maintenance, can I still geek ( real important ), any onboard lan ports for cable modems, can I add hard drives and the such later on and probably many more questions that I do not know to ask. Yep, I am ignorant when it comes to a Mac, so, please spill your guts, tell me all you know and what is the best way to go. thanks, BabaLouie

I love pple who buy macs.. check out www.apple.com they are the ones who manufacture macs. That's the best way to go. Which one to buy? Depends on your bugdet. The G-4's and 5's are the latest ones available and they are sleek! In terms of speed.. The OS X is the latest..and the way to go. (thats' like saying p4) Usual amt of RAM.. get the max!! :) Disc maintanence very easy with a Mac.. You can use the regular monitor, though if you buy a mac..why not go full blast and get a monitor? Much easier interface to work with..don't have to look into your cdrive, or wonder why can't you store things on your desktop!! (I hate PC's..though I use one now!!). Most viruses are created to attack PC's so your Mac is much safer thatw ay. Sam and Norton Utilities are always there..normally comes with the comp. And when you buy one?? I envy you!! I use a PC coz Macs are so unpopular in India!! :( :(

"don't have to look into your cdrive, or wonder why can't you store things on your desktop!" huh? Yeah, macs are good for rendering and editing very large media files. thinks Yep, that's about it.

I have a hate relationship with PC's, Ornlu!! :) I got my PC..called up a friend..and said.."Now what?" One of his zillions of advices was that I shdn't store things on the desktop..as it takes up a lot of processing power and thus takes up a long time to open. Macs..at least..everything is on the hard drive..or on the desk top. THEN..I was told.. you store files in the C-drive..in My documents, in heaven knows where. It take sme ages to figure out where I have stored stuff!! I plead ignorance of a PC.. I love Macs.

#1 - Cd drive storage is used for backup only...you don't put files you need to access on them. #2 - It might have slowed down the computer on windows 3.1 but if it does now, it's unnoticeable (plus it's still on the harddrive, C:WindowsDesktop, it's just a folder that is shown all the time.) #3 - The file system is as complicated or as simple as you make it. There are several sets of quicklaunch buttons / start menu / key commands you can assign if you so desire. Word up PC...word up.

Attached Link: http://www.myjokemail.com/videos/Macintosh.shtml

That's what folders are for to sort stuff so you know where it is and stuff is stored on the desktop as shortcuts, the programs aren't stored there. BTW Mac's aren't infalliable and have similar problems as PC's. The link is for some humor, no offense to Mac lovers :)

Yessir!! Thanks for the info..willd igest them..and use that frm now on. God knows I need PC classes!! : ) : ) Will try to love a PC from now on. I have a P4, 512 megs Ram, 1.8, windows XP, whatever the rest laptop. And now.. lemme go shower..it's 8:30 am here!! :)

Aldaron , LOL!!!

-You do not need to worry about viruses when you use a mac. -OSX comes with built-in firewall software that is easy to set up -the G5's come with gigabit 10/100/1000 lan ports -You can get the G5 with 1.6 Ghz, 1.8 Ghz, or dual 2Ghz processors -1 Ghz FSB per processor -the G5 comes with the superdrive (burns DVD disks at 4x, burns cdrs and cdrws at 16x) -G5 supports up to 8 Gigabytes of RAM -support for ATI radeon 9800 graphics card and has 8x AGP interface -has 2 serial ATA hard drive bays so you can add another drive later -built in support for dual displays -three PCI expansion slots, supports the new PCI-X interface I'd stick with the mid-range 1.8 Ghz model, as it is a better deal than the 1.6Ghz model and not many people can utilize the dual processor model The 1.8 ghz model specs are as follows: 1.8GHz PowerPC G5 900MHz frontside bus 512K L2 cache 512MB DDR400 128-bit SDRAM Expandable to 8GB SDRAM 160GB Serial ATA SuperDrive (DVD burns 4x, CD burns 16x) Three PCI-X Slots NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra 64MB DDR video memory 56K internal modem Firewire 400 and firewire 800 ports USB 2.0 ports Optical audio in and out Analog audio in and out look more here: http://www.apple.com/g5 buy here: http://store.apple.com Any more questions please ask!

If it were me, I'd stick to the PC platform. I don't see spending the extra money to buy new mac software. If you know the PC, then there's no real learning curve after buying a PC again. I also wonder if there's any "artistic" benefit to buying a mac? I haven't really priced computers in a while. How's the mac pricing compared to the PC's ? Good luck with your

speed tests by a real person: http://www.barefeats.com/pentium4.html

The top-of-the line G5 series actually compares quite well to similarly configured windows systems. The low end G5 (which is not a good deal, IMO) costs $2000. The mid range 1.8 Ghx comes with wayyyy more of everything as compared to the 2000 model (double the hard drive space, double ram, faster bus, better pci support, etc..) but only increases in price to $2400. The dual 2 Ghz model has a better graphics card, and even faster FSB, increased clock speed, and 2 processors, and it will set you back $3000. If you go to the dell website and configure as machine as close as possible to the dual processor g5, the G5 ends up being about 300-400 dollars LESS than the dell. I use both PCs and macs, and I can honestly say that I would choose a mac in any situation. The sheer reliability is a given, and I have never had to wonder if the mac would be running if i left it on for a month rendering. I KNOW it will be fine. I find that working in the windows environment makes me have to "deal" with the computer all the time. On my mac, I feel that the computer is there to complement my creative process and stay out of my way while doing its job. OSX is an amazing yet simple OS, and it's easy for anyone to pick up on. I suggest going to an apple store and just fiddling with a few of the macs they have there. The employees do not push products on you, so it's great to get an objective opinion and get any questions answered. My guess is that when you try it you will like it, most likely more than you had been expecting. Windows is not a bad OS, it is just, IMO, the mac offers an environment more suited for people with a creative flavor. It keeps out of your way but has the tools you need WHEN you need them, right then, and it works.

You do realize that those tests were using the top-of-the-line mac setup against a mid range athlon rig right? They're running an athlon 2600+ and the xeon is noteably slow. The Athlon-64 FX supposedly blows the g5 out of the water, but this is only hearsay.

Ornlu: "#1 - Cd drive storage is used for backup only...you don't put files you need to access on them." Says who? A cd drive has more uses then simple backup. I put stuff on CD's that I access all the time. Photos for one, MP3's for two, and even some, "run a few times a year", maintenance programs that I can boot from... Macs may not be easier to use, though most people that switch from PC say they are. But if they are not easier to use they are easier to maintain, no question about it. First when you install an app on the PC, you usually have to use a setup application that copies the app and a bazillion other files all over your hard drive, including the System directory, and others. On a Mac you usually just drag and copy the app to any folder you want. Want to remove an app on the PC? You have to use the uninstaller, otherwise it is very likely you will get many many error messages the next time you boot up. Don't just erase a programs folder on XP, as this does not get rid of the system files that were installed, nor does it get rid of the many many registry entries that were added. Macs do not have a registry nor need one. Want to delete an app on a Mac? Usually you just have to drag its folder to the trash. As was already pointed out, you won't find blaster on your Mac. Nope, you are not going to get a virus just for being connected to the internet like you will on an unpatched XP system. Last time I did an install of XP for a client, I think it took us over an hour just to download and install the over 55 patches and security fixes, this with a DSL connection. Anyway, I own several PC's and a Mac. I also build PC's as a business and if it were not for the PC, I would not have a job. However the Mac has clear advantages to the PC and should be considered by anyone thinking about a new computer purchase. Of course if you are mainly into games, you have to have a PC as games on the Mac lag behind the PC considerably. If I were to buy a new Mac right now, I would hold off until February when apple releases the second revision of the G5. They are rumored to start at 2.2Ghz and go to 2.8. This is within Q1 2004 Also OSX is awesome and it is really Unix for the rest of us. I have been running it since the betas in 2000 and I am still amazed to this day at how many cool things you can do with an OS based on Unix. Mac it up! Just my thoughts...

Anyhoo... as far as Ive seen through testing of my own just mainly messing around a SP mac can not compare to a SP athlon 64. Also, you may notice that as I said, the mac is far inferior in anything but editing large data files or rendering. In any game a PC will outperform a mac. A PC is less expensive than a comparable mac. Plus, Macs are not NEARLY as upgradeable as PCs. I like to fiddle with my PC, I built it myself, configured, tweaked and edited some of my drivers for my own use, overlocked to the limit, and overall had tons of fun with it. A mac is like a laptop in a way. It's a package deal, you don't want to open it, and if you do they will abandon you on any warantee/gaurantee that they offer. INCLUDING customer service (this happened to my uncle who has a 4 machine dual processor G5 server at his house given to him by BAE systems for cad schematics) He opened up one case to fix it himself and found it a complete mess, everything is AS IS, basically it's hard to troubleshoot a mac because they just assume that it will work, when it fails you don't upgrade, you pay 3 grand for a new machine...I've been upgrading the same pc for 5 years. Granted, there isn't anything from the original anymore, but I can upgrade parts as I get the money to do so. Mix and match to my heart's desire. Try that with a mac.

Ornlu: Your Mac information is no where near to being accurate. As a PC builder I will agree that a PC is more upgradeable due to the fact that no one company owns the technology, as is the case with a Mac made only by Apple. But it is still very upgradable. My mac has an AGP slot, and several PCI slots, IDE hard Drives, and ATAPI CD drives. I can go buy any hard drive off the shelf and install it in my mac with no problems. Same for CD burners and DVD drives, RAM and just about any USB or FIREWIRE device. I can crack my case open and shuffle around components at will and it will not void my Apple warranty. I can even go buy a dual processor upgrade card any time I want. On the contrary to what you suggest, Apple has been very helpful and in the case of my 17" apple monitor that blew up 3 years out of warranty, Apple fixed it for FREE. They stand behind their products. "the mac is far inferior in anything but editing large data files or rendering." What do you base this on? Are macs inferior at photoshop? No. Are they inferior for Web Development? No. Are they inferior at video editing or DVD creation? Nope, they set the standards for this. You have obviously never used a Mac for any amount of time, and that is a shame as you are missing out... Like I said, I have nothing against PC's, I use them daily, but I think choice is a good thing and the PC is not always the best choice, unless you are a gamer as there is simply more games on the PC.

Oh Noooooooooooo! ;)

It must be a glitch in the matrix; all of this seems too familiar. As I had pointed out before last year some time: A Mac (any model) cannot "CANNOT" compete with a custom built PC (taking into account that you know what you want). Mac's use good components and live a long life. I still have 2 classics in storage. More money than sense kind of raps it all up when it comes to PC/Mac argument.

What would really suck is if you buy a new Mac, and then corel suprises us with a new Bryce 6, but only for the PC platform. lol Stranger things have happened. I still shudder at the thought of having to pay money to buy mac versions of all the software I use (95% non art stuff)... not to mention I'm sure some of it doesn't even come in a mac version. Also, if you farm render, it might be of benefit to have the same OS on all your computers.

"not to mention I'm sure some of it doesn't even come in a mac version" I have found a mac equivalent that is as good or better than 98% of any PC app you can toss out there. "when it comes to PC/Mac argument" Why do people always make it an argument? It's just a choice....a friggin computer for gosh sake... I'm not a gamer, and personally, if I was, I don't think I'd care if...dare i say it, I am running 300 fps on a mac and the pc guy next door is running 315 fps! oh no! what will i do?! :P Hell I'll go right out here and say it. A Macintosh is a better machine than any windows box out there. notice i said machine. It costs more for a reason. If doesn't then why is apple still in business? One thing PC users need to know: a mac user, 95% of the time, will NOT consider switching to windows, so if you bring up the mac vs. windows thing they really don't give a wilting tulip what you say, and will just try to get you to switch to a mac.

farm rendering is not platform exclusive.

Yes it's not an argument; excuse my choice of words "it's a choice". ;) Life goes on; and you (the Mac user) paid 3000 for a super system. And guess what? Much better system (almost twice the speed/storage/RAM... and the list goes on) cost 1500. Too bad it doesn't have an apple logo stuck on it. Not to mention the diversity of custom case's and designer peripherals that I had to choose from. :)

I won;t get into this. I have an alienware PC running a P4 2.4 Ghz with 1 Gig of Ram and a 120 gig drive. I run 3dsmax on this machine. That's it.

Plain simple, pound for pound an AMD based PC will give best value (speed wise) for money. However OS-X is a more stable and nicer working environment the windows GUI is ok once you're used to it, it's stability that lets windows down. (Office however is very resource hungry)

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Toolset: Blender, GIMP, Indigo Render, LuxRender, TopMod, Knotplot, Ivy Gen, Plant Studio.

Use both PCs and macs, but am a diehard PC fan...not going to get into the argument of which is better, but if you know what you want...you can get a customized PC for $1000 or so less than a new G5 (with all the trimmings) and the performance is very similar. OSx is a great operating system, but lets keep in mind that Windows XP is an equally excellent OS (ive been using XP pro for a year and a half or so)...hasnt frozen once!! (yes thats right, not once). It is true you can viruses alot easier for the PC than mac but this is not because you cannot hack into a mac system. This is simply due to the fact that macs are owned by less than 5% of all computer users (so viruses are not commonly written for macs but they do indeed exist). ...ok, so my argument is a lil biased. Macs are great in their own respect, but they are definately not without their flaws...same goes for PC...choose wisely ;-)

Attached Link: http://calyxa.pandromeda.com/benchmark.html

Oh yeah, here we go again! I wrote a big long post pointing out how utterly pathetic Apples are in every way, then deleted it, then wrote another one that was even MORE revealing, then deleted it!!! So this is actually take 3 of my evil, fuck-Mac-based post! First off, I'm biased. I own and operate a local computer company, Dragon PC. There is NO money in Macs, for me. None of my clients could ever use one, they do not network with other computer types very well, if at all. The network world is built on Intel and AMD processors. So, disregard my opinion if you think I'm being funded by AMD, because I am. Still, even an Intel chipset is years beyond what Apple has stewed up in the name of idiocy. It's cut and dry. Macs are built by machines, PC's are built by people. Like Ornlu, or myself, or anyone who cares to take some time to learn. Macs are for users who want their computations to be as far from SEEMING like computatations as possible. Macs are easy, and rarely break down, and are sometimes even fun, especially if you are an elderly person or somehow handicapped. (note : NOT referring to MadMaccs!) Windows-based PC's are for serious users who don't mind some instability in exchange for maximum flexibility. This instability draws to a close with XP, it's a great OS and really blows all of the others right out of the water in terms of flexibility and power. Remember, they MADE Windows in the first place to get AWAY from Unix, which has been around since the 60's!!! PC's, much like race cars, are harder to maintain and take intelligence and thought to construct. A Mac is like a Ferrari, flashy, shiny, pretty, and fast, until you try driving a Mid-engine car in the rain. A PC is more like a NIssan Skyline, massively advanced, with All-Wheel-Steering and All-wheel drive and all the techno advances they could pack into it's 3,000 pound frame. Here's the math : Lazy person with money + likes shiny plastic and doesn't care about performance = Mac user. Dedicated learner with little or no money + intelligent, forward thinking, ready-in-an-instant-to-hit-CTRL-ALT-Delete without flinching = PC user. $2000 dollars for a G5? Today I built a $406 AMD 2Ghz setup for a client, and I'll take a render challenge any day to prove this machine will smoke a Mac. SO, on that basis, one could build a small render farm of more advanced computers for the price of ONE silly Mac. WHY would you spend extra money and get less? One reason : Idiocy. Wait, I thought of ANOTHER reason!!! Laziness. But aside from all my "opinionated" banter, just click the link to Pandromeda's benchmark page. Notice that there are NO G5 scores posted... Can't have Apple going out of business quite yet, now, can we?!?!

I use a Dell at work and a G5 Duo at home. My boyfriend has a PC at home too. I prefer my Mac. My mother also has an ancient Mac from way back when that still works happily, while my little sister has a PC. Guess which one has more problems? An Apple computer generally guarantees quality. You do pay more for a reason. Apples have built-in networking. I plugged 2 computers into my cable modem hub and shared files between them. Yay built-in ethernet! My computer also has Bluetooth built in and what a pleasure it is to just put batteries in my keyboard and go. Macs open most Windows files as it is. OSX gives you the power of UNIX. So if you really want to, you can run your command line and customize to your heart's content. Vue 4 & Poser 4 came as hybrid (both Mac & PC) disks. Software isn't really an issue. Games like Diablo 2 LOD, SIMS, Civilization, etc, all come out for both the Mac & PC. The Duo g5 seems to run incredibly fast for me. So for me it works splendidly.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

only people who cant handle 2 buttons on a mouse should be advised to buy macs all other should stay well away of them all youre paying for is the hype.

for some free stuff i made
and for almost daily fotos

Ok..I am now feeling really sorry for BabaLouie. Ask how a MAC works..and well..the age old debate starts!! : ) :) ALWAYS! :) Now that you've heard it all..have you decided to buy a mac still?? Or has the forum sent you in a spin that would need all the spirals in the bryce world to create how you feel? :) PS..(sneaky whisper..macs are better..shshshs...)

I have a 3 button mouse on my Mac. They do support them you know. :D

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

Ok.. I can't help but reply to this. Hello, My name is Bill and I've been a Mac Addict since 1985. Macs were not my first PC. The Altair had that honor(No keyboard, mouse, or storage). When it came time after Commodore's demise the old 8088 PC jr's were pretty pathetic (C:/) compared to that snazzy little MacPlus with a GUI, Mouse, Dual 1.4mb floppy drives, and a (gasp) 40MB hard drive, and it Talked. Yes it cost more but it worked much better( It actually worked). As all of you surely know, software is the largest significant cost of any system anyway. Once you are in the software upgrade loop, the cost of switching platforms is a major consideration. I have never had a problem finding software of ANY type for the Mac(except games). I can remember many PC only people buying Macs just so they could run Bryce. Yes Bryce, Word, Excel, and many other common apps were developed on the Mac first. Now, do not think I have anything against PC's as I own 2 myself. You could not part me from my 2 lbs Libretto for any reason. I use both platforms everyday and push them both HARD! The PC's crash like clockwork at least once per day. My three Macs have not been rebooted in over three months. My PCs have been hit by several viruses and a severe bout of Gator that was a MAJOR task to get rid of. I have never had a virus on any Mac EVER! There are less than 100 known Mac virus and all but one or two are extinct. None affect OSX, not one. Yes someone could do one if they wanted to, but the point is they have not. As far as upgrades All of my Macs are extensively upgraded with drives of all kinds, ram, processors, tablets, cams, all the exact same stuff you use in a PC. No problem there. With the Mac move to Unix there has been a tremendous surge of open source stuff moving to OSX. The shareware scene has always been a large playfield on the Mac. It is getting even better. There are many Mac only apps that I have heard several of the PC folk wishing for on this very Forum. (BSmooth, Eric Wengers new stuff). I also run Windows on each of my Macs so there are very few apps that I cannot use and run on my Macs (again mostly games). Although I disagree that Macs are more expensive if compared to a PC that has ALL of the same features, it is possible to buy a PC for less. You get what you pay for! Much less! If you have a large software investment for Windows stuff it wouldn't make a lot of sense to switch, vice versa also. It all comes down to what you use and like, but if you have not personally used both, you really don't know what you are talking about. You are describing cherry pie without tasting it. Use what you like, spend your money where you will, but don't try to describe something you have never used( and that was very obvious by a few of the comments). Let us all get back to our art whatever car we drive!

:)

My lips are sealed. Lets agree to disagree ;)

Shadowdragonlord - using Mojoworld as a benchmark for Macs is completely inaccurate. I worked with Doc Mo in the very beginning of that app and the Mac is a PORT of the PC code (instant slowdown). Craig - their very talented progammer only knows the PC and he HIGHLY optimized the PC code for intel processor with a bunch of custom calls, so of course it runs faster on PCs. Using this benchmark is ridiculous as a comparison. <<Here's the math : Lazy person with money + likes shiny plastic and doesn't care about performance = Mac user.>> This statement is completely full of shit. WE ALL care about performance since 3d pushes the limits of every box ANYONE can make or buy. We are all 3d artists and we always need higher performance than any of the platforms can provide. What we don't like is that JACKASS in redmond WA who runs a monopoly and we don't support this asshole. What we don't like is having our financial information stored on Microsoft's infinitely hacked servers (via passport). What we don't like is running an OS where we spend more time protecting against or applying patches for viruses. What we don't like is having to defend Macs against people who have never used one... << Remember, they MADE Windows in the first place to get AWAY from Unix, which has been around since the 60's!!>> They MADE windows in the first place to get away from DOS! At that time UNIX only ran on expensive midrange machines. They made windows in the first place because the Macintosh GUI made everything easier - PCs were still running on command line DOS when the Mac was becoming popular with its easy to use fully graphic user interface. PCs at that time were running on 16bit processors and Macs were born on 32bit. This 16bit legacy bites windows users every day when the registry gets corrupted. That registry exists because it was an easy (and sloppy way) to support running the old windows 16bit apps. Cut to the present - yes PCs are faster and cheaper to build - (monopolies foster this) and the NT/XP codebase is much more reliable than its lowly predecessors - they are also based on UNIX underpinnings. OSX runs on Unix but it is the first widely accepted GUI running UNIX - far surpassing what Linux tried to accomplish. Gee it looks like we are all heading back toward the UNIX you said we were all trying to get away from. You said so many other inflammatory and uninformed comments about Mac users I won't even diginify those with a statement. Scott

--Here's the math : Lazy person with money + likes shiny plastic and doesn't care about performance = Mac user.-- This is the line I was referring to that is completely full of shit. Scott

Most Agreeable!! :) BTW - Does anyone want to buy a slightly used VIC-20 or TRS-80?? ;) Just joking - I can't part with them either. Don't know why, just can't. I have to confess I love them all, whatever their individual warts.

A computer is a computer is a computer. If your computer does what it was designed to do, if you are happy with the way it runs your programs and uses the internet, what else do you need? I think this may one of the sillier biases. Maybe it's because I've owned a Commodore64, an Amiga500, an Amiga2000, used a Vic20 (a friend's) and TRS80 (at work) extensively, and suffered through the many versions of Windows through the years, and owned 3 different IBM clones (Still have the clones, C64 and A2000), but I don't care. I am addicted to computing, period. Never used a Mac, but I would love to play around with one. "If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there." - George Harrison

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

Both have their good and bad points. I use a PC, but I don't hold much against Macs. Macs: The good: Blazing fast more often than not (Unix based OS, Motorola RISC processor), I've seen Bryce5 run on a G5 before and I was like "Damn that's quick!" The bad: Software tends to be more expensive for Macs, and some titles available for PC have not been ported over. (However, there are PC emulators that work and most PC filetypes can be read by the software that comes on a Mac.) The ugly: Only one mouse button. Most familiar PC type keyboard shortcuts don't work. Things like that. PCs: The good: Most common. Parts are readily available at low prices and are easily obtainable. Pretty much any software title you're looking for is available. Any add on hardware should work. Awesome variety of games and things like that. Also it doesn't have to be Windows, one could install Linux. The bad: Having a good selection with PC's doesn't mean it's all good. There's a fair share of crap software out there. Not all programs work without the right PC add-on components or configurations. Some drivers for hardware and the such can be problematic. "Plug and play" isn't always true. Viruses and other nasties cater to PC's. The ugly: Not all PC's are the same quality. (This is independant of price too. It's possible to buy a good cheap computer or a crappy expensive one.) Variety of configuration setups can lead to confusion in fixing things. Sometimes PC's will hang, usually because of miscommunication between programs or poor memory management. PC's usually aren't "pretty" like the Mac from an aesthetic standpoint.

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Barbequed Pixels?

Your friendly neighborhood Wings3D nut.
Also feel free to browse my freebies at ShareCG.
There might be something worth downloading.

Well, many thanks to all for the interesting and if not somtimes opinionated responses. At least it has remained a friendly thread. :-) For the last 17 or so years I have built my own computers and have 5 or so years programming in 'C' so my teeth have been cut in the x86 world. I will be moving to the Mac world for a number of reasons, some having been mentiond already in this thread, but I will also be moving into the Mac world because I have not yet used one and the experience will be educational and certainly enjoyable. Of course I will still continue to use my 2 Windows systems for some time to come, not quite ready to give them up yet. :) I am not a gamer, money is not a problem and the bulk of the software that I currently have is cross platform so the initial investment will be limited primarily to hardware. Once again thanks for replying ... BabaLouie

Welcome Aboard BabaLouie!! If you run into problems or just need answers there is a Mac Forum here to help out! And no, don't get rid of your PC's. Extra render boxes are sweet to have around and they will all network just fine! If you have ever used Linux you will find yourself at home quickly. Let us know what you think once you have your new machine.

Happy mac-ing :)

Scott, I really didn't mean to offend YOU personally, and haven't meant to attack anyone's character, but check this out: (your post of my post :) "--Here's the math : Lazy person with money + likes shiny plastic and doesn't care about performance = Mac user.-- This is the line I was referring to that is completely full of shit. Scott" (and Baba's post... :) "I am not a gamer, money is not a problem and the bulk of the software that I currently have is cross platform so the initial investment will be limited primarily to hardware." Note, the money is not an issue part. 'Nuff said. Maybe I'm full of shit, but don't let me stop YOU from being an asshole!

i don't see babaLouie as a lazy person, how'd you figure that? Why do you have a problem with people who have money? what's with the name calling all around here? c'mon guys....let it go...we are not our computers. Chill out.

ShadowDragonLord: You really need to grow up. With all of your abusive speech I am surprised the RO admns do not ban your carcass. You are full of it though and obviously never used a mac. I am a PC builder by trade, I sell custom built PC's to businesses and homes. However this does not mean that I am going to slam a great machine like the Mac. I am not lazy, and I certainly do not have tons of money. But I could afford to buy a Mac, just not the top of the line at the time. I like the others comments that if you like your computer, then fine. Use the platform that is best for you. And one last thing, if you still think PC's are always faster, you are wrong. The #4 fastest computer rig in the world right now is a parallel system of 1100 DP G5's, for a total of 2200 Processors. This beats out the next fastest x86 competitor which is a 2500 CPU AMD (64bit) outfit. The Xenon is way down the line. Also this setup is not yet fully capable and they expect it to come close to #1 which is a 250 Million dollar Super Computer in Japan, the fastest on the planet. This University will get the same speed at a 5 million dollar price. Universities and Bio tech companies are rapidly replacing their x86 and other based systems with G5. And the G5 is made by IBM, not motorola as you likely don't know. So go troll some where else please... Paul

I have a Mac simply because it has nothing to do with the M(onopoly) S(yndicate) N(etwork) :-D And a few other reasons... already mentioned in this thread.

Hey guys take a deep breath... Linux will save us all one day. Thomas.

And Madmax; compliment on the Alienware system, lovely machines. Happy rendering to all PC or MAC. I'm away to check if this Texas Instruments (TI) 99/4A still works. :)

madmax, farm rendering can most certainly be platform specific. I honestly don't know about bryce lightning, but as an example, Vue 4 MUST have the same OS running on all computers in the farm. Vue professional on the other hand, isn't platform specific. If someone using Vue 4 wanted to go to a Mac they would have the extra cost of upgrading... which was my only point.

Bryce Lightning is platform independent. I have a bunch of macs and PC's on my network and can render to all of them at the same time. It's nice. Yes VUE4 must be on the same platform as the vue program is running on which is a shame really. Paul

s-lord said: --Scott, I really didn't mean to offend YOU personally, and haven't meant to attack anyone's character, but check this out: (then he quoted my earlier repost of his quote) and concluded with: ...Maybe I'm full of shit, but don't let me stop YOU from being an asshole!-- First of all I am not an a-hole and by pigeon-holing all Mac users (I am one myself) into no brain, lazy users who could care less about performance and only like shiny plastic you HAVE offended me personally. I am an educated user who likes choice, knows how to code and operate on MANY machines - UNIX, Windows, Macintosh, and IBM Mainframes to name a few and also craves performance by the sheer virtue of being a 3d artist. So yes you did offend me and many other Mac users by your inflammatory statements. I never called you a name - I said that statement about shiny plastic was full of crap and I stand by it. We Mac users are not mindless dolts who don't know what is going on in our boxes and for you to assume this is the biggest (and most mis-informed) insult of all. As far as speed goes - I want near realtime test renders. This will take a machine that runs at about 100Ghz - and that won't be happening any time soon. Until then no machine is fast enough and I see benchmarks for what they are: clever marketing made to sell more PCs or Macs. Scott

He he, this thread makes some good reading :-) Ok, my first computer was a Jupiter Ace (looks like a white ZX81, but has 4k of RAM and FORTH as the native language). I've programmed in assembly language from z80 to 6502 to 6809 to 68000 to 68030 then to 80x86 starting with the 386. Now I stick to higher level languages (C/C++ although I've done a fair amount of PASCAL as well) Still lurking around are my Jupiter ACE, a ZX81, a spectrum 48k, an AMSTRAD CPC464 (a great computer, much under-rated), an ST, an Apple E2 and then my PC collection. I've never owned a mac although I've used them at work.

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Toolset: Blender, GIMP, Indigo Render, LuxRender, TopMod, Knotplot, Ivy Gen, Plant Studio.

Well, I'm really not interested in offending anyone about their computer choice. In fact, if I have done so, please forget I brought up my own opinions, which DO kinda suck these days. It's not nearly as important to me as enjoying your art, Scott, which RULES, or as important to me as making my own "art" (scoffs)!!! I knew I should have stuck with my FIRST post version, it was much less obnoxious, in retrospect! Truth is, according to my 4-year old son, the fastest computer on the Earth is actually Teletran 1, the computer that runs the Autobot's ship when they crash landed on Earth. You don't see PCs OR Macs cranking out new Autobots every season! I only use the Mojoworld bench because nobody's ever made a good, standard Bryce bench with the newer processors, and of course it's a great selling point for AMD's, considering how advanced Mojo is and how revolutionary it's technology is. I understand the benchmark's biased, but could find no stats that were LESS biased... As for "growing up"... This isn't Junior High. If you want to insult ME, at least come up with something original, PAGzone, you gallery-less fucktard. I am not a troll, but a DRAGON!!! Please take my jokes as JUST that, this isn't "Seriosity!", and I am not a child, but a professional just like you are, my friend! (bows to everyone)

shadowdragonlord - you call someone a f*cktard and you are not a child??? You just proved his point about growing up. You are dragging down this discussion/argument into something that I remember from grade school. You know what scares me the most, is the thought that you talk that way around the 4yr old child you say you have. So how about we lay off the language??

I use the cinema 4D bench to test computers.So far the osx panther on a dual g5 beats out the rest of the field.Also note,panther has given a noted speed increase to all the computers that have installed it.and lastly anyone who argues about which is better should go back to high school.they are just computers,no more no less.

Lol I normally use the 3ds Max benchmark to test computers, it's not available for Macs :-) (hence the reason I'm PC based)

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Toolset: Blender, GIMP, Indigo Render, LuxRender, TopMod, Knotplot, Ivy Gen, Plant Studio.

Dragon: You make me laugh. You tell me to get original and that this isn't "Junior High", yet in the same sentence you call me a ****tard??? I think you just confirmed for everybody that you talk like you are in Junior High and you validated my statement. As for me being gallery less, this isn't a requirement to appreciating computer art and art in general, of course I owe you no explanation, but seeing how you talk on this forum, I figured I better spell it out for you...

macs suck for every reason known to man, please, down't get a mac, get windows xp. they're faster, hold more ram, gigs, the internet is WAY faster, and it is a whole lot easier to handle.

Misfit --- Ok I couldn't resist - do you have a spell checker in windows xp? down't????? Perhaps you should spend less time bashing Macs and more time working on your grammar and spelling. btw I think you mean the machine itself since windows xp itself cannot hold gigs of RAM (except vitrually). Again - this is a grammar issue. LOL!

Agai, I apologize for acting like a fool. No excuses, just a sincere apology for pointing fingers and calling people names. Innovator, I assure you my son receives only the best care possible, and is a strong and well-rounded boy who doesn't suffer from my tongue at all. Please don't refer to my parenting again, it's unnecessary for anyone to question this aspect of my world in an art forum, however OT. I DO appreciate your concern for his well-being! "There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the Land is one with the Dragon, and he one with the Land..." - Wheel of Time

misift you simply don't know what in the world you are talking about. How many replies in this thread actually helped BabaLouie? yeah...that guy waaaayyy up there at post #1 ;-)

Perhaps I should delete my posts in this thread? Or is it too late for such acts...?

nah just don't start it up again. free speech you know

For the Mac and Pc users that responded with helpful information I extend my thanks. I will be purchasing a G5 early next year and I will probably bug you silly in the MAC forum asking questions. :) Oh yes, I have been called names much worse that *sshole and on a number of occasions. One of the nice things I have learned after 48 years of life is to not let such petty things bother me. I just wonder what it is in a persons life that has made them so angry. Money is not a problem for me as I have indeed worked very hard all of life, why just last week I rewarded myself for my hard work by paying cash for a new 43 inch Pioneer flat screen plasma monitor and a Denon 2900 DVD player, total cost for me $6000. It is nice having money, but I assure you I have worked for every dime of it. No hurt feelings with anyone and peace to all ... BabaLouie

You'll enjoy your new G5. :) Starting with the G4 Titanium powerbooks, all new Macs are now metal-cased. Not plastic like someone above mentioned.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

BabaLouie, On a forum like this one where almost everyone is very experienced with their machines people become most passionate about them. I'm sure even those with a few ruffled feathers had some fun with this thread. We haven't had a good Mac vs PC "debate" in a good while, so I think we had one due! It is somewhat traditional and fun! I can remember some rather excellent ones on the old Bryce List that made this one look quite tame. ; ) I am glad to hear you have done well. There is no good fortune as enjoyable as one that was well earned! Please ask all the questions you wish, you will find many here willing and even eager to help out. It will be interesting to hear what you think of your new Mac coming from a long PC background. Welcome to The Cult of Macintosh! Best Regards and Continued Good Fortune, Macmondo A Proud lover of shiny plastic and the next amazing new thing!

Ok Now I for sure want a mac.Good to hear all this info.Not the squabbling, but the real informative posts.I have been thinking for months about one.I love the design for one.I do not like the mouse I tried on the demo I tried... unless I can use a MX500 I feel lost.What can I grt for under $3000.CDNStill will keep my other PC's.(Well maybe I will dump the P3 fro a laptop.)

Painting: The art of protecting flat surfaces from the weather and exposing them to the critic_____website

Amethyss
Your Mx500 will work just fine. Just plug it in... it will work. Most Mac artists get a multibutton mouse any way.
Check out the store at www.apple.com. They also have a link to factory refurbished machine that still carry the full warranty(lower left of Store page). You can also pick up a copy of MacWorld or MacAddict. Many of the vendors in the back will deal if you call them. Most Mac people buy their new toys and apps from mail order houses or online stores. You have to wait a couple of days but you save tax and they are usually fast and will discount if you bug them. For $3000 you can get a G5 1.8ghz (See MadMaxBR5's Post # 9 above for features) and still have enough to get a LOT of ram and a new LCD panel. Or use one(or two) of your present monitors and you can get some new apps to play with also. Get a bunch of Ram...with Macs, more Ram = more speed and more open large apps. You can get very good prices on Ram from www.datamem.com(for PCs also). Much better prices than from Apple(or Dell). For Factory warranty service you can take Macs to any CompUSA if you have one nearby.
I suggested the 1.8ghz G5 because neither Poser or Bryce are multiprocessor aware and that machine has 8 dimm slots(8 GB Ram Max). You can also upgrade the processor down the road if you want to. If you have any portable drives (USB1or2.0/Firewire IE1394) if you format them for PC's you can use them on all of your machines. Macs will mount all PC media just fine. I use one to transfer large files between my Macs and PCs because it is faster than 100b/T ethernet. The G5 has gigabit ethernet btw. It also has the hardware and software to edit movies and create custom DVDs included. Along with speech control and handwritting recognition(this is great with a Wacom tablet). OSX will also allow file and printer sharing with your PCs so you won't need to move your printer around unless you want to.
You can expect to get SEVERAL years of strong service from a machine like this. My brother is still using one of my 8 years old machines (a UMAX clone) and it still runs ALL current apps. He did upgrade the CPU and put a gig of Ram in it. He won't part with it because it has 6 PCI slots (with most filled.) My old Mac Plus from 1985 still works just fine also.

If you need more info you can IM me if you like.

Welcome
Bill

You can have all of this for under $2000. FULL TOWER Aluminium CASE ATX 550WATT ABIT NF-7 CRUSH S-ATA AMD ATHLON XP 3200+ 2GB DDR400 PC3200 RAM PIONEER 16X DVD ROM PIONEER 106 DVD-RW & DVD+RW 2x200GB S-ATA 150 7200RPM 8MB CACHE CREATIVE AUDIGY 2 PLATINUM EX sound card FLOPPY DRIVE 256MB GE-FORCE FX5900 X8AGP Graphics HP WIRELESS MOUSE HP WIRELESS KEYBOARD CREATIVE 5.1 INSPIRE 5700 Speakers 19" TFT MONITOR MERCURY TV+RADIO TUNER WITH REMOTE WINDOWS XP PROFFESSIONAL Regards, Thomas.

Attached Link: http://www.arstechnica.com

That is indeed a very sweet machine Thomas! I wouldn't mind owning it myself!! The main reason I do not like to run my PCs on the net is I do not like my machine reporting my business to Redmond everytime I go online. The .net stuff is just way too invasive for my blood. Upgrading Int Explorer even adds .net to Win98 ( I had a time with that) I do not trust Billy G with my data. Microsoft's next OS, Longhorn(eta 2006) looks to be even more invasive. I can see the PCs try to connect to Microsoft constantly from my Mac as I monitor my network traffic. You cannot tell they are doing it from the PC though. That is the sneaky type of stuff that turns me off on MS. Linux is great if only there were more apps available. BTW - The G5 running Panther(OSX 10.3) is 64bit clean hardware on a 64bit OS. The Athalon64 is much more comparable to the G5 in both price and performance. The cheapest I could find an Athalon64 is $700 for the CPU alone, and the mobo is also more expensive. Is XP64 out yet other than beta? BTW #2 - Apple uses AMD's hypertransport on the G5s for the frontside bus. 6.4GBS bandwith across the mobo per CPU is nice indeed. I also prefer to support AMD vs Intel. Much better bang for the buck! One last BTW - I attached a link to my favorite PC site. Very balanced info with no punches pulled for Win/Mac/Linux. Be sure to check out their God Box receipe(specs). That is one awesome PC windows or not!

Nice site Bill. :) You don't have to be part of the .net. I personally don't use it and have never been part of it. You have the power over your privacy and with simple tweaks to your browser and/or system it is possible to control any information that is destined to leave your PC. Viruses are another issue; I spend more than half of my life online, I have multiple setups constantly connected to the network. I have never been affected by a virus/Trojan or any other malicious code. The battle for security is an ongoing issue and it's a life long study. There is no such thing as a 100% secure environment when you're connected to the internet. If an individual has enough resources and determination, they will eventually be able to break into any system PC/MAC doesn't matter. Regards, Thomas.

Macmondo .... "I do not like to run my PCs on the net is I do not like my machine reporting my business to Redmond everytime I go online." Exactly one of the reasons I am leaving the PC world, being a part of the communications industry and being quite knowledgable in the PC/Win world I know all too well what is going on and am not comfortable in the least with what I see as a concerted effort between Intel and MS to create hardware and software systems that uniquely indentify my system and me too those who feel they have a need to know something about me, my purchases, site visits, hardware or software configurations. Intel has, IMO, become a horrid monoply. They have played so much with processor speeds and chipsets for the last 3 years, stringing along customers and manufactures that I can no longer justify buying their product. As far as MS goes I stopped buying their products about 3 years ago. Win2k Pro was my last MS purchase, if MS can give their product away or, at a reduced price to customers in foreign countries, all to prevent software pirates or the adoption of Linux, then they can jolly well sell their product to me at a reduced price. :) Having downloaded and read the white papers for Mac G5, as well as other research, I will be on my way to the Apple store about an hours drive away as soon as I post this. I hope the salesperson is up to speed as I have a hugh list of questions, the poor soul. :) A great weekend to all and a hearty thanks to the Mac and PC people for their helpful advice.... BabaLouie

I have returned from the Apple store and I must say that I am completely impressed with the G5. It was very difficult to walk out of the Apple store without one. This has got to be the most thoroughly integragted system that I have ever seen, the Panther software is absolutely amazing. I spent 2 hours playing with a G5 and the software that comes loaded on it. This is one fast and beautiful piece of equipment. I opened the side panel up, the salesperson did not get nervous though, well not until I took out my screwdriver. :) Nice and clean on the inside, well thought out. Beautiful aluminum exterior. I now understand why Mac people talk about the 'experience' and 'feel' of a Mac, for those of you who are adamant Windows users, open your mind up, go to a Apple store and see for yourself. Yep, I am a new Mac convert.... I have seen the Light and now all is clear. :) take care, BabaLouie

Congrats BabaLouie! Macs are really fun to use and you will LOVE Panther. I have had it since last friday and I am still amazed at all the little things I keep finding that make it such a great upgrade. Regards, Paul

BabaLouie , it is wonderful to hear of your experience. :) During my lunch hours I sometimes visit a J&R store near work that has a floor dedicated to Apple computers. I think I mostly go there to dream over the Cinema Displays now, but when the first G5s came out I had to go there and try them out. They left me alone to play, which I really appreciated.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

Paul and Caly thanks ... For those who have not been in an Apple Store, it is certainly an experience. The one I visited probably had 12 or so of the Apple laptops on display and powered up, G5s and other systems as well, a kids corner, software and hardware sections all in a big open area, plenty of room to amble about. One kid on a laptop had a shootem up on the laptop and on one of the G5 systems as well, he was wanting me to play against him, I knew better thought. :) A person could very easily spend a lot of time in there, again and again and again ..... BabaLouie

Yep! ... You're hooked!
Have fun with your new machine!
Apple is well know for the Reality Distortion Field Effect that is emitted from its products and loyal fans. Within the radius of it's effect visions of great things occur for those who dare to think different. It is something that you just have to experience for yourself.
Wait until you see what the effect that having All of your major apps up and running smoothly together has on your workflow. The difference is amazing, when the OS is not a distraction. I will look forward to hearing from you in the future.

Best Regards,
Bill (macmondo)

For all of you windows folk who have been following this thread you should really take a close look at just what .Net is and what it does. It was first introduced with Office 2000 and then added to every OS release from ME on. It has been called by several names over it's history. It can be added to Win-98 just by updating Internet Explorer. It is very hard to remove without causing major instabilities in the OS. It cannot be removed or disabled in XP as it is integral.
Microsoft's next OS called Longhorn, will take this .Net concept/technology of information and data sharing even further. If this matches your vision of what your computing experience and data security/control should be, then all is well and good. You should however make an informed choice. Microsoft is getting away with this simply because it's users have not objected. Remember that you as a customer are making their payroll.

Best Wishes to all!

After you install XP, the OS prompts you to enter a Microsoft .NET Passport account to enable access to certain Internet communication features. To turn off this reminder, perform the following steps: Start a registry editor (e.g., regedit.exe). Navigate to the HKEY_CURRENT_USERSoftwareMicrosoftMessengerService registry subkey. If the PassportBalloon registry value doesn't already exist, go to the Edit menu; select New, Binary Value; enter a name of PassportBalloon; then press Enter. Double-click the PassportBalloon value, set it to 0A 00 00 00, then click OK. Close the registry editor. Kind regards, Thomas.

You can also use Add/Remove to delete unwanted programs: When you start the Add/Remove Programs Control Panel applet and select Add/Remove Windows components, the system doesn't display all of the components because Windows doesn't want them uninstalled. However, you can change which components the system displays. Perform the following steps: Open the sysoc.inf file located in the %systemroot%inf folder. Go to the [Components] section. Locate the entry you want to make uninstallable and remove the word "hide." For example, for MSN Messenger Service, change the line msmsgs=ocgen.dll,OcEntry,msmsgs.inf,hide,7 to msmsgs=ocgen.dll,OcEntry,msmsgs.inf,,7 Save the sysoc.inf file. Regards, Thomas (ttops)

Attached Link: www.blkviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm

The sysoc.inf file is a good hack Thomas, I have used it for 3 or so years on Win2k Pro. I always take a look at it after I patch or update Win2k. I also go into 'Services' and stop and disable a good number of them. The attached link has some good info about services and what you actually need to have running. For a system that is strictly for gaming you can actually shut down a lot of services. The info is for XP and Win2k. Cheers, BabaLouie

I envy you, BabaLouie. I use both a Mac (G4 with OSX Jaguar) and a PC (Compaq with Win98) at work, and I own both a Mac (blue and white G3 with OS8.6) and a PC (custom built AMD with Win98... because I refuse to upgrade to XP and have to deal with all those IM pop-ups, faulty security, and .NET stuff), but if I had the money, I would soooooooo buy a new G5 with OSX Panther. Pretty, pretty please, if you ever consider giving away your new G5 for an even better model next year, think of me! :-D

Interesting site BabaLouie :) The attached link was invalid so I'll repost it: "www.blkviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm" I have to admit that I do like the G5 series. Just wanted to point out some of the miss concepts regarding .NET frame. I'm not here to promote Windows, however XP Pro is the best release I've ever used; when it comes to stability- and I've been around since the 3.x. A hardware firewall will do the job for anyone seeking total control over their own systems in/out. Good luck with your new toy. Kind regards, Thomas.

Attached Link: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html

With the references in this thread to microsofts spyware and the moves they're making going forward, I've attached a link to a good FAQ on microsoft's idea of 'Trusted Computing'. Just out of interest, I use microsoft products, but my firewall is a Linux one that can be set to block spyware attempts, fascinating how regular the outbound data is.... Baba, good luck with the new toy when it arrives :-)

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Toolset: Blender, GIMP, Indigo Render, LuxRender, TopMod, Knotplot, Ivy Gen, Plant Studio.

Sorry Ttops, but ET still phones home.

Gog CA1 - That was a very interesting link. Thanks! It was interesting to read the actual patents which are very broad and cover new technologies for a long time to come. Network person computers sounded quite intriguing, and the parts covering my appliances was rich! Billy G wants to make sure that my freezer checks to see if I have paid the grocer or I can't have any pudding! What is his cut in all of this. Yes, that was a spoof but if you read closely it is not that far out.
My concerns about these patents are not about piracy. I, as an artist feel strongly that not paying for intellectual property is theft. A crime, pure and simple. But, MS has a very poor record of securing access to its OSs and third party access to these routines is not a risk I want to take.
http://cryptome.org/ms-drm-os2.htm for quick reference of several patents.

Controlling access to data is an issue that goes beyond platform. Currently the Fritz Chip is the Flavor of the day, but it is just another incarnation of the Clipper Chip from the 90's. The names may have changed but the issues remain the same.

Those who seek to control your information have Tyranny in their hearts.

Computer Lore - Bill Gates was one of the very first victims of software piracy. He wrote one of the first OS's for the Altair called Tiny Basic. Tiny Basic was a gem that only occupied 2k of the 4k of Ram that the Altair had. It came out at the same time as a device to record software on ticker tape (8 possible hole across for each Byte). Well, people had no concept of paying for software at that time and this was one of the first ones for sale. Bill wrote a very interesting letter in one of the early Dr. Dobb's Journals about this. He has good reasons to dislike pirates from way back.