I agree with Sharen, Vue 4 is a great program. But I'm sooo much happier with Vue Pro!! Of course, the plant editor!! For the moment I'm just playing around creating completely new plants. They can be saved to show up in the existing Vue pants folder and every time you select it (I mean the completely new one) it will react as the already existing Vue plants, 2 of the same species never looks the same. Even not when created by yourself :-). Another great feature is Post processing. You don't need any other application to change hue, brightness, saturation.... You can do it directly in Vue. A great feature inside this feature is also that you can render a spherical image. When saved, you may apply it to a sphere and it looks as it should look:-) And the wind. You also need wind for still images, not only for animations. Give life to your trees, grass and flowers in giving them some movement in the wind. I also like especiallly the automatic "make seamless" for reflection maps. And, and and...so many other new features! I could speak for hours aboutVue Pro. But I don't have the time to do so. The book with over 400 pages is greatly done and every thing is explained in detail. I have no high end application and I cannot speak about how Vue reacts in Max or Lightwave, but the full scene export is a great thing. Vue Pro will not export a scene when an imported Pz3 figure is included (but you always can : import your Poser figure as an OBJ file, then it will export with the scene. Otherwise import your Poser figure separately in your high end app, some third party objects are forbidden for export too (except OBJ format). You can create your own objects and forbid the export from Vue. Import works great for all formats supported by Vue Pro. OpenGL is supported, but some graphic cards needs to be updated to work with Vue. There is a test option in Vue to know if your card works or (maybe, but not for sure) not. Most of recent cards are working fine. Personally, I have not encountered ANY technical problem until now. I had not one crash since I use Vue Pro final version (5 days, many hours). If you have specific questions, we will try to answer. But don't forget we are all new to Vue Pro:-). Guitta

I completely agree with Sharen! I, too, have problems with Vue Pro (especially the distributed rendering and 'oh, there's the desktop again'-type crashes). Which program do you intend to export to? There is a thread on Lightwave export you'll want to check out, if Lightwave is your thing, so to speak..

Forgot to say: whenever a new update for Vue Pro is ready, you will be able to get it automatically (if this feature is enabled in your options). No more running to e-on's site for updates, Vue informs, downloads and installs, as you wish:-)

Python scripts too:-) I have to learn it. For the moment, I did not understand well how to create on, needs some time:-)

Yes, that is a nice feature. I did not mean to take anything away form Vue Pro, like I said I have not had enough time to use it to it's full capacity....afraid to let go of my wonderful Vue 4.2 that has no problems. Of course my Vue Pro has no problems I just don't yet know how to use it. Sharen

I'm like Guitta. I LOVE Vue 4 Pro and have had no problems with it at all. She's also right about one thing, we are ALL new to V4P. We are just learning all of the new features. But for me I love the plant editor most.

I'm happy if Vue Pro works for you guys, but it doesn't work for me. For days I have struggled with it but I can't solve the problems I have. My problem is that the problem crashes... a lot. I've been in long discussions with Eon, exchanged lots of information, but nothing has been solved yet. My major problem is EXPORT. It only takes 5-10 min before the program crashes when I try to export anything, a scene or a model. And the weird thing is; I don't have a problem with 3DS Max, Vue 4.12, Illustrator, Photoshop, Terragen, Wings 3D, you name it, they're all rocksolid stable, honest. I've disabled OpenGL and that didn't solve anything either. Latest update didn't do any good either. Like I said, I'm happy if it works for you, but we can't ignore the fact that there are still so many people who DO have a problem; you just need to read some old threads.

I mean that the "Program" crashes LOL

I'm always wondering if there could be an incompatibility between Vue Pro and another Application? Just an idea. The computer where I have installed Vue Pro (XP Pro), has only graphic programs, absolutely nothing else. And I have none of the mentioned problems. Many writers of the "old threads" have their problem resolved as far as I know. Guitta

One thing that I have noticed, and I'm not saying that this is your particular problem Gaussian it's just an observation, is that when Vue Pro imports an object from another program (such as Poser 5 in my case) it takes a LONG TIME to do the import. Vue Pro is actually "rendering" a low quality version of the object while this is taking place. It uses this version to display the object in OpenGL mode. The "rendering" is why it takes so long. I haven't seen a setting that will let you disable this. Perhaps some people are taking this long import time and thinking their system is locked up since it does take a lot of system resources and it seems locked up. I thought this at first but I waited and found my system wasn't locked up after all.

Hi, I have both installed. However Vue Pro is the used all the time, most of my scenes have Poser figures in them and Pro handles poser better. As far as value for money goes I am not sure (yet) especially with the $US100 delivery fee, although it only took 4 working days, to get to Australia. Richard Taylor (in Sydney, Australia).

Sorry, but all the program crashes, 90 calls to e-on, get one prob fixed and another occurs. I also run most other programs mentioned above with no probs. I am using a new P4 3.GHz with 1 gig of memory and a well know $600 grahics card. Mats won't load correctly, Rock import and resizing causes crashes, and imports and exports are so slow the program simply freezes. Prehaps the next FIX will work. Till then Vue4 Pro sits idlely on my system. Glad it works for some of you.

I have not had any problems with Vue Pro untill I tryed to install 3 of the plants from e-on software. Orange, Walnut and Yucca. Two of them(walnut and orange) installed but when I try to open the plants I get a greyed window where plants should be. Then Vue locks up. The other plant(yucca)says I don't have the right iidentification number. :o( I am patiently waiting for tech support to help solve the problem but with how they are set up it is so slow to get help. :o)

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thank you all for your replies,i have been reading other threads as well,i think i'll be patient for another couple of weeks before ordering and i'll keep reading this forum and see if some of the problems for some of you get worked out- i'm doing a sci fi comic,i render backgrounds in bryce and my characters in poser 5 and then composite the image together,i make starship pieces in lightwave,export them as obj to bodypaint r2,texture and uv each piece seperately and then assemble the ship together in bryce,this workflow works well for me,but because of the promised features of vue 4 pro i would like to transplant it into my system instead of bryce, as i would like to be able to export my assembled ships to poser as the alpha channel in the renders would help compositing multiple ships in the one scene(or does vue 4 pro render objects with an alpha channel?)anyway,thanks again for your replies and maybe i will join you all as a user soon cheers! Mal

Well in my opinion: If you need to export from Vue or if you need to import scenes from high end applications for render in vue or if you make money on what you do and think the better OpenGL eventually will pay back the investment in better handling speed or think that the ability to strech,bend,resize and changing the images on an allready existing plant is what makes up a greate plant editor then maybe it's something for you. Otherwise I think you could spend that extra $ for the pro version on something else, maybe a real plant editor.

Perhaps I can do a full review in the near future, but for now just a quick summary of my impressions of Vue PRO after having it a few days ...

Guitta is correct in that there are many GREAT new features and what amount to FIXES (like multiple UNDO, for example) that should have been in Vue4. She barely scratched the surface of some of the amazing new things (like object replacement and decimation ... very handy!)

HOWEVER, with that being said, I can only echo the sentiment of many others here ... IT IS EXTREMELY UNSTABLE (i.e. BUGGY) AT THIS POINT. Vue 4.2 was very stable for me, even with OpenGL enabled amazingly enough. However, PRO is very unstable and I can list multiple ways in which to consistently crash it, unfortunately.

Finally, there have not been significant improvements in the area of animation and keyframing. Vue Pro is still VERY WEAK in this area. And Pro has introduced some new quirks with keyframe nodes "spazzing out" after simple changes.

I'd say it has a LOT of potential, and I just hope they squash some of these bugs soon, as currently I can't seem to get anything done because of the bizarre behavior.

-Tim

I agree with the comments above on both features and stability. I made my choice a while ago to revert back to Vue 4.2, so I can create a scene from start to finish with minimal crashes (4.2 is not that completely rock-solid either). If you start a scene in Pro, you cannot take that scene back to 4.2. Conversly you can take a 4.2 scene to Pro. Vue Pro has many terrific enhancements but it up to each individual to determine if those enhancements add to both helping you design scenes and create better images. Checking the pricing... Vue Pro US$599 Vue 4.2 US$199 Vue 4.2 sidegrade to Vue Pro US$399 Getting 4.2 + Pro sidegrade is approx the same price, so I would suggest either getting both now, or getting 4.2 and sidegrading later (extra postage cost but Aussie dollar is increasing making cost cheaper :)). This would give you time to get accustomed to Vue and decide if its your application for the future and also give yourself the ability to get more features when you like.

I agree with Gebe, some of the problems could well be down to incompatibility with other programs, I have Vue 4 not Pro, I use it because I like what it does when it does it, but I dont really like all the problems with it. To run it reasonably successfully, just using the close program dialogue for other background running programs is not enough, I have to go to msconfig and shut down all start up programs other than systray and explorer. If I dont do this and I use Vue and then try to shut the computer down, most times it wont shut down without me switching it off, its a most inconvenient way to use a program. I decided after a year of not using it because of problems, I had to get something out of it, after all I had paid for it. I found many updates counteracted some problems and introduced others, from one particular update to the next one I couldnt use options at all, then after the next update it worked again. After another update my preview images for importing textures etc, suddenly just become a jumble of random program icons. I have had to put up with that, I have never had a successful answer from eon on any problems, and usually get no further answers if I press it. I have only had serious problems with one other program, just on one upgrade, from the next upgrade on it ran okay again. C4d runs bug free with both my virus scan and firewall enabled, Wings the free program, still beta, runs with only a very occasional bug which Bjorn the creator is usually on top of by the time I visit their forum. All my other programs run okay too, it might be that Vue doesnt like Hewlet Packard computers, so I have had more problems than some have. To be the program that stands out as a problem, makes me wonder if the program is tested on a wide enough range of computers. The number of updates covering an enormous number of bugs must say something even to the most loyal eon customer, certainly things will have to change a lot with Vue 4 and Pro before I would consider spending any more money with eon. Dave

Dave, I had Vue 4 first on Windows 98 first edition, PII-300. Later I had it on Win ME, PIV-800. I went back to Win 98 (always first edition), because I did not like ME. Vue 4 worked absolutely fine and without any problem since I had updated to 4.12. Randomly it crashed, but this happend maybe 4 or 5 times a year and believe me, I used it EVERY day for hours, because I'm working with it for my professional work. Windows itself crashed lots more often. Now, I have installed Vue4 on XP Pro- P IV - 2.8 and it also works great. As Vue Pro doesn't run on Win 98, I also have Vue Pro on my XP computer. On this computer, as I said already, I only have graphic programs, nothing else. No shareware, no freeware, no games, no illegal copies of anything!. I have installed Vue4.12 3 times on this computer, in English, German and French language to be able to help out in all these languages with the right words, as I'm also a mod at French and German groups. My Vue Pro has not crashed once since I have installed it. I have done the most crazy things with it, mixing 4 and more materials and always trying and doing more then what is logically possible. Every program has its limits, I often overrun it with Vue 4.12 and Pro and it works :-). Vue Pro has been tested on lots of computers and computer powers and graphic cards. But it cannot be logically be tested on every computer Brand existing in the world. I would bet that Vue (any version) works ALWAYS great on any "clean" computer with a clean OS installation (speaking about PC, I don't have a MAC in my small collection). I either can't see the "enormous amount of bugs" you are speaking about. What are they exactly? If ever we find bugs, we report it to e-on and they will do every thing possible to give us satisfaction. If you found bugs, you should report them also. I'm curious to know what kind of bugs you are speaking about. When I have an enormous scene ( over 120 MB) to render, I also shot down every thing else by msconfig, that's just to make render faster and sure. Finally, please don't compare Wings with Vue:-). :-)Guitta

I agree with Guitta, I have had 3 different OS systems in the past few years and I have only graphics programs on my computer, no games either,I have email and virus software, other than that it is clean and I have found working this way is the best for all my software. I really think the way you handle your computer makes a huge difference. Mike's computer, has no programs on it other than the OS XP and his AutoCAD, everything else is gone, he is not hooked to the internet, basic and has never, ever had a problem and if any of you who know AutoCAD, will know it is a program that can cause huge problems due to calculations that need to be done. Those who use their computers for lively hood income and not for playing, or listening to music or whatever will always do better with a clean computer. Sharen

I want to clear up what I said above: ...whenever we find a bug, we report it to e-on... Right is the following: Whenever we find a "bug", we first discuss it here, because bugs often are not bugs, just a misunderstanding of a feature by a user. So, real bugs reported here must be found also by other users, otherwise they are not bugs (if only one or two users have a kind of a repetitive problem).

Well I guess I have to blow the clean system idea out of the water here. My system is far from clean. Although everything on there is a legal copy. I'm a software developer by trade so I have a lot of other stuff on my system. On my XP box Im running Visual Studio .Net and Office 2003. I'm also running Apple's iTunes and some chat clients. I'm still not seeing any of the bugs that others are reporting. I did have V4P crash on me once the other night but that was because I had a BUNCH of other programs running at the same time and I only have 256M of RAM.

No texture or whatever problem for me:-)

Me either. I'm beginning to think that in Purloinius' case it's operator error.

Since 4.12, Yes I do run Vue 4 relatively trouble free. I initially used to be able to use background draw, but somewhere along the update line, and I had to switch that off because my Vue display messed up if it was on. My point about many bugs was prior to 4.12 and I think it is fair to say that it took some time to get there, it was prior to those updates that I stopped using it for a year. That still leaves me with having to shut down start up programs in msconfig, to avoid the use of Vue stopping me closing down the computer other than by switching off. I am extremely cautious of free programs and have only a strictly limited number of ones that I feel are okay like, Wings and Lavasofts Adaware, programs known not to carry spyware. I dont have games installed, Shareware I dont entertain, because far too much of it carries advertisers Trojans, Like yourself I wouldnt touch pirated software however cheap, even if I had no particular time for the company that produced the software, on the same basis that I object to any abuse of the owners copyright and rightful income and that includes mesh models etc. I have reinstalled Vue a number of times, each time I reinstall it, the vehicles objects thumbnails duplicate and I have to delete them, long grass appears in plants which the program doesnt have, only as an extra. The computer has been reformatted, so maybe the Hewlett Packard set up is faulty, who knows, but I would expect that to reflect in other programs, which it doesnt, so as I said maybe Vue just doesnt like the set-up. I have tried to get a reason for problems such as the options sudden failure after an update in the past, (which works again now) but eon had no answers, and dont answer when you keep asking. Their answer that it must be Windows or something else, may be right, but my question is why just Vue. As I said the still permanent problems are the import preview picture that started after one update, the computer shut down problems after using Vue, other things are not predictable like freezeups with Booleans, but less since I shut everything down in start-up programs. I had avoided putting my views on the program for some time, because I fear that in the software world you are always expected to say its brilliant in all ways or say nothing. The problems I had with a program upgrade from another company, as mentioned in my last post, proved that criticism wasnt acceptable. I had a letter published in Computer Arts praising their software and support to the skies, then their support rep packed up and the upgrade came out, I couldnt use it for 5 months till the next upgrade, then it was okay again. I realised then that the high standard of support was down to that one man who had left, and I was left floundering for 5 months. Eventually I did take them to task for having ignored me that long, and they acknowledged some had problems but they didnt have any answers, but apologised then for having ignored me. I dont mention their name because its not relevant to this forum. I saw other people with their program get stick if they dared to critisice the program for any faults it had on their systems, but I had learned that blind loyalty to a software company did not help me one iota, if my problems were too difficult for them to try to solve. I will say that in principle Vue is great program, and if you experience no problems I am pleased thats so, but programs do have problems on some set-ups, and it is unlikely to be the set-ups fault unless that is reflected in at least 25% of the other software installed. Sorry about the mention of Wings Guitta, but its an amazingly good little modelling program, and its free, plus runs its own forum to iron out any problems people may have, what more can you ask. :) Sorry also Grunthor, I get the point your making, but I do not use multi IDs to make a point, and it is not operator error, your response is typical of the reasons that people that have less than perfect results from any software have to keep quiet . How lucky we are to live in a democratic world where you are only able to praise software companies. Dave

I believe you are the exception and not the rule. E-on now has a track record of creating unstable software. And it is shame if they are trying to break into the Pro market, as no one would use this software because of its quirkiness. I mostly do hobby animation, so it's not critical. But when I do need to use my software professionally (like animation for a hologram), I will never use Vue, I always go back to Bryce (or even Poser at times) because I know it's not going to crash on me or add bizzarre things to the animation.

Vue 4 did not become stable for me until version 4.2, and even then it has some serious problems. Vue Pro, as I have mentioned, is very unstable. My machine is basically a pure graphics and video editing station. I am hyper-aware of system performance -- I admit I'm a techno-geek. My system is at its optimum.

But equally if not more important is the fact that no other software behaves this way, and Vue has acted like this in all its iterations. No other software I own (from the simple Cool3D to After Effects to 3DSMaxEven to my realtime video editing software) has these problems whatsoever. Even POSER 5 crashes less often (actually almost never now, other then during certain renders) than Vue.

-Tim

I think we're on the same wavelength, Dave. LOL! I too agree that Vue is, or rather COULD be, a fantastic app. It's a shame it's getting lost in poor programming skills and lackluster tech support. (And I mean the mode of tech support, not necessarily the staff!)

I agree with a lot of you on support. I have beenn 5 days trying to get 3 plants to load into Vue Pro without errors and Tech still hasn't gave me an answer. They keep asking have I done this or have I done that, and then have to wait another 24 hrs for an answer after I give them my answer for previous question from them. This is so frustrating.:o( I wish they would setup a forum like this Vue forum that would be much better than the way they have support set up now. I agree its the mode of tech support and not the staff. I think they are understaffed for the amount of problems they are receiving.

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It is always important, when asking support, to write all steps you have done in detail as well all error messages or whatever. If you send them a very detailed question, you will get the right answer quickly:-) guitta

I agree gebe, and if anyone looks at my support tickets I think I give all the details anyone has asked or needs for the problem. The lenght of time you have to wait for an answer has been taking 24 hrs for each question. I am now on my 6th day trying to find why 3 plants will not work with Vue Pro and still don't have an answer. :o( I have plenty of other plants to work with so its not the problem of needing the plants. Its the way of geting help that is so frustrating.

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Absolutely ... to offer such a complex product and not offer tech support is absolutely ludicrous. I've expressed this opinion to Lynne in the past, and had hoped some change would come as I was told they were looking into that option. Personally, I don't think it is an option ... especially if you're touting a "professional" product and targeting a pro audience. Some things are nearly impossible to troubleshoot via email/message posts. Sometimes you need instant feedback. Without a doubt it is very frustrating and MUCH, MUCH more time consuming. I can't imagine those providing the support enjoy the format all that much most of the time either. I feel sorry for them as well. I have a whole list of issues with Vue Pro I need addressed but have been putting it off because I am dreading the tech support process at Eon. Something has to change soon. -Tim

I have 3 friends now holding off on Vue because of the problems I have been having. That is not good public relations for a company to not offer good support on what is suppose to be a professional product. No matter how big the issue or how small they are all are important to the consumer. I think what others are seeing and reading is making them hold off on buying the product. I know for a fact of 3 people who will not buy untill some of the issues are resoved with tech and how things have been going.

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I purchased Vue about three weeks ago. When it comes to this software, I am a complete newbie.

The upgrade to 4.2 went off without a hitch. I am able to import Poser 5 scenes into Vue, no problems. My scenes render beautifully, no crashes.

I can't speak for Vue Pro, as I do not have it.

But, based on my extensive 3-week Vue 4.2 experience, I would HIGHLY recommend this program to any that ask.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

In your extensive 3-week experience, do you animate or still render only with Vue? Just curious. -Tim

So far, still renders only. In fact, I tend to doubt that I will ever do much animating. Animation requires a lot of time.....and I do this for fun, not for profit.

On the other hand, if the mood ever strikes me...we'll see.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Ask me that question again in six months.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

If I were a still-only artist I'd probably be pretty happy with Vue. Most of this bugs and/or lackluster features with Vue involve animation. My current main issues with Vue Pro are all based on problems occuring when animation toolsets are used. -Tim

Believe me, as a Poser vetran of many years (unlike my Vue newbie status)---

It's a pleasure to watch a P5 scene render in Vue. Especially when Poser 5 itself does nothing but choke on rendering the same scene. Attempting to render a complex scene directly in P5 can be a true hair-pulling experience. Carefully spending half a day putting together a scene in Poser, and then having Poser 5 lock-up on the render -- just makes my day, you bet.

Right now, I'm VERY pleased simply to have a render program that actually WORKS for a change.....most likely, I'm going to be doing my modeling in Poser, and all of my rendering in Vue.

As for animations, I'll take one step at a time. Perhaps e-on will come out with a "magic bullet" patch.

There's always hope.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I thought I would put on an example of the Vue preview for an imported texture, it can differ, sometimes it is mostly program icons, this preview contains Vue icons and various Windows buttons, this only started occurring after a bug fix update. Eon had no answer to it, though I was told that I had not been the only person to have the problem. This happens with everything other than Windows explorer and systray disabled in start-up programs, Eons answer was reload Windows which for me means reformat, as I dont have a separate Windows CD, and refomating makes no difference. Maybe its my Windows operating system that should be ditched, the fact that it works happily with all other graphics programs proves nothing, and Vue cannot be at fault, because some people have no problems. Or maybe as Grunthor said its the operators fault, I suppose I cut and pasted all the buttons and icons into the preview Window, sorry to be facetious, but I didnt start the facetious comments. Had Grunthor looked at my gallery he would have seen that I dont dislike Vue, and have done a reasonable amount of work with it, I just dont like the problems, is that being unreasonable, if so I am sorry. I will just say again, it is not the fault of my set-up, it is quite obviously a problem Vue has with my set-up, and those things need to be ironed out. Eon do what Wings has done, (even though Wings is a free program), get your own forum and let people work out the problems on that, then people would not need to voice them elsewhere. Dave

Hmmmm... Have you run something like Norton's WinDoctor in Utilities? Because that -looks- an awful lot like a crosslink problem in the ActiveXCOM section of your registry. Windows is notorious for leaving registry stubs (and for that matter, too many other programs do as well) and HP is notorious for 'customizing' Windows and creating issues. What you are -seeing- is into one of the system dll's for the windows GUI display. I've seen mouse drivers cause that (you don't have a scrollwheel set to web-wheel, do you? That one is plain =evil= with graphics programs of many flavors). If you haven't done so, then buy or borrow a copy of Norton Utilities, back up the registry, and let it traipse merrily over your platters. You may be appalled at the number of errors you will be presented with. If that doesn't work, you will definitely need a registry guru.... :

I owe Grunthor an apology for misreading his comment regarding Purlonious; I had not realised that there had originally been a comment from Purlonious on the thread. I read Grunthors comment as suggesting I was Purlonius using a different name, and as many could tell you I loathe this practice of multi ids, so was a little disgruntled, I would ask Grunthor to accept my apologies. Thanks Dale for you suggestions, it is appreciated, I do actually run Win doctor on a regular basis, and apart from occasional registry errors if I have installed or uninstalled something, I get no other problems other than occasional incorrect shortcuts. Even reformat did not solve this problem, or the shutdown problem, the problem shown does not occur in any other programs previews, and in fact did not occur in Vue until directly after one of the bug fix updates, on the mouse the answer is no I do feel that its a clash between Vue and my set-up, as I have known others with programs that worked fine on mine, did not on theirs, that has usually been solved by the software company in question, looking closer at why certain set-ups have a problem. Obviously this particular problem isnt major but I find the shut down problems a lot of hassle, I have learned to live with Vues other intermittent problems. Thanks anyway for a constructive response. Dave.

Back to e-on's slow responce time with tech support. I think if they had a good forum for customers like this forum or a vbb, ubb or even a free board like invision board it would cut down on their tech support time in helping customers. When a customer can go into a forum and read what other members have done to fix a problem that saves from sending e-on a support ticket. I go through the faq's and see so many of the same issues repeated over and over but no answers in them that solved the problems. They most always leave the part out that fixed the problem. :o) A lot of customers could then get involved and help other customers that had simliar problems and that would help cut down on e-ons support time so they could deal with major issues and bug fix's. This is just my idea but I see that it works on other sites like at vbb, photopost and all the bullentin board sites. Daz has now started a forum with lots people getting help fast with model and poser problems from other members. I want to say I have Vue 4.12 and have not had any problems with it. I do not do animations so can't help with that part of it. I will continue to use it untill e-on can get things working that I have had problems with in Vue Pro. Most noticebly adding what I thought would have been simple. The Plants.........? No its not my system because others are haveing the same problems but I can not get it resoved because of the slow tech support which need improvements in a fast sort of way :o)

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Dave: I've been getting screen "Redraw" issues as well, but not like you have, and I'm using Vue Pro now. I'm experimenting with some things in Vue Pro to try and isolate the problem. I'm not sure yet, so don't quote me, but I'm beginning to suspect Vue has a serious memory leak issue, that may be releated to the multiple UNDO. We'll see ... -Tim

Mikeangelo, what you are seeing is a glitch in your video driver. This is a problem with some video drivers under Win 9x. I'm assuming that this is the system you are using? Switching to another color depth (e.g. 24/32 bpp) usually solves the problem. Please let me know if that's not the case. Iloco, having a dedicated support forum is a very good idea. I'm going to suggest we setup something like that. Best regards.

Thanks e-on. That would be great and help both you and your customers I believe. :o)

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Any plans for true (i.e. phone-based) tech support? There should be no reason you can't have at least one person answering the phones for tech support. No need for it to be toll-free or anything. I'd even be interested in a pay-as-you-go or annual plan for tech support. AT LEAST we'd have an option. Non voice contact support with a product this complex is simply inexcusable. I use Canopus products (realtime editing hardware and software) and they have a very limited tech support staff --I believe it is only ONE person, but MAYBE two. However, they seem to do a relatively good job. They have a customer base easily as large as E-On's (if not much larger) with technical issues as/more complex than those involved with Vue. Surely you can see to add just one person to your staff, can't you? -Tim

I agree with you timeoteo1. At lest they have acknowledge that they might give us a true forum. That would be one big step in the right direction. Phone support would sure be nice for complex issue that need immediate attention and could not be taken care of with a forum. :o) e-on if I can remember correctly is the first software company I have delt with that doesn't have some kind of phone support. :o) "lol" Kind of reminds me dealing with my lawyer. Get back with ya and never hear from him again. :o)

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I agree that a forum is a STEP in the right direction. My only fear is that they will see it as THE solution, and it might further encourage them to forgo true tech support. Yes, E-on is the only company I have heard of that does not offer some kind of phone support. I have a lot of software and have never found a company that did not offer phone support in one form another. (Not including shareware, but a LOT of them even offer phone support!) Actually, what's worse is they do not even have simple CUSTOMER SERVICE SUPPORT, let alone technical. I have never been able to talk to ANYONE at E-on. Yeah, they have a generic order line, but that isn't helpful at all. Unless you have a credit card in your hand and know exactly what you want -- i.e. they ONLY take orders, and have not been able to answer the most rudimentary questions about sales/service. Again, going to the professional market, this would not be the image I would want to project to that segment if I were running E-on. I wouldn't want to project it to the consumer/pro-sumer segment for that matter, but that's water over the dam now. -Tim

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=1515145

Tim, We are working on a solution for the Pro market. That being said, you are incorrect about there being no customer service support. What's provided is in response to the issue at hand, but it comes with the assumption of that the support is free and that what's wanted is free support. Most of the issues that come in through knowledge base questions are usually already answered in the knowledge base (ie download a new driver from Nvidia, download recent Vue update, try without OpenGL, turn off old copy of Crashguard, etc). We can have someone tell a customer to do that over the telephone, but do you want to pay to get that kind of information? The assumption for Pro's is that they do, because they really need an answer yesterday. For customers who want it free, its self help first, then email support. Microsoft does the same thing. You can get free email support from Microsoft, however it take 2-3 business days to get an answer. Fortunately we can do a little better than that without asking for a credit card. If we get a problem (one that isnt "hey, I have a problem, please call me!") that we think cannot be solved by self-help or email then we call. Since its clear that you want to have a paid for support program, Id be interested in hearing from you and from others about what you'd like to have and what you think is reasonable to pay for support. Lets assume that self-help and free non-urgent email support stays free and only look at paid for support. Now is really a good time to give feedback on this so we can develop a program thats wanted and feasible. Im going to start a new message with the topic "Paid For Tech Support Program" as the title. Can we move this thread there? Best regards, Lynn Fredricks e-on software

Thanks eon but still no luck, the graphics card is an Nvidia GeForce4 MX, it has the latest driver. I have seen reference to the fact that Vue can have problems with Nvidia maybe thats where the problems lay, obviously I would not change my graphics card because one program was incompatible with it, at present Im am still on Windows 98. I just cant figure out why some of these problems appeared with updates, the problem with the options sudden failure, and then the next update it worked okay again, it just doesnt tie in with the performance of other programs. I only put the preview fault on because it was easy to show, but why should it suddenly appear after an update, if the graphics card is causing it, then logically it should have been like from the first time I used Vue. I do find the programs that behave by far the best are self contained no installation, like C4D, just delete the folder if you wished to uninstall for any reason, I hope more software companies go down that route in future. The first time I ever uninstalled Vue and then checked, half the stuff was still in, with a self contained delete the folder set-up that couldnt happen, and I dont know whether Vue shares files, but I am sure that in some cases that causes problems and clashes. Anyway thanks for trying, if you can come up with any idea why the use of Vue causes the lockup when I try to shut the computer down, unless I have everything off in start-up programs, that would be most helpful. Dave

I have a suggestion, since this is Win9x. Goto www.litepc.com and have a look at 98lite. Windows gets ever so much better behaved when you scrape crap like IE, Outlook, Active Desktop, and the scripting host off of the real OS. Or upgrade to Win2k (you'd have to hit the computer shows to find it, but it's worth it) or XP. Then goto same site and get 2kXPlite and again yank out some of the bloat. And the video glitch could have been caused, not by driver error, but incorrect layering. VIA chipsets are notorious for it, but just about any system suffers from it to one degree or another. I've had the best results by doing the OS install, then any chipset drivers needed (the whole mess, not selecting just what I think I need and doing other bits as I get ready to install the specific drivers for that device), -then- whatever iteration of Direct X I'm using, then the actual drivers for the video card. That way, the actual card drivers come to rest in the most stable arrangement of DX and AGP hardware drivers you can have. I've solved a lot of 9x video issues with that procedure. And once it's stable, you can usually upgrade DX with little trouble. I make no statements about video drivers...

And I don't suppose there's any idea that Lynn of E-on could give us as to the anticipated arrival window of Mover 5 is there......? ;D

It's No problem Mikeangelo. I hope you get your Vue running well soon.

Thank's Dale for you further suggestions I will go and check them out. Thanks also Grunthor/Jim for accepting my apology, it's a pity in a way, that when a post is deleted, it doesnt leave an indication that it has been deleted, as happens on some forums. That avoids following posts looking totally out of place, or getting misread as I had done. Dave

Mikeangelo, did you try changing color depth?

Hi e-on, yes I did, sorry I should have made it clearer in my earlier answer at number 53. It made no change to the situation. Dave

e-on:

OK, I'm home for the weekend and nowhere near my code, but I managed to cause a problem like Dave's getting a while back by, I think, destroying a handle that was owned by the system, not my app, which seemed to cause a major leak of GDI resources. Could have been the opposite though, it was a while ago! Wouldn't dispute that video drivers could do it, but it can also happen when GDI resources get too low - along with desktop icons becoming amusingly arbitrary - 98SE onwards, GDI seems to maintain a 4xn imagelist of buttons and currently running program icons, and, if resources get too low, blits that into your dc whatever you called for! On the bright side ISTR that it was was the MS documentation that was at fault, rather than yours truly.

Timoteo1:

If you're using Storm cards, then I'm frankly amazed that any software, including Premiere, works properly on your system. My company spent thousands on those things, they're in a cardboard box under my desk at the mo. The suppliers won't take them back, they've no second hand value and Canopus have never answered any of my e-mails. Worst thing is they're redundant anyway, why buy a capture card that's no faster than a standard firewire and uses a proprietary compression so that every frame captured has to be re-rendered? Sorry about the rant, but they really are a sore point with me ATM.

Redrags

John

e-on: Sorry, clarification required. I'm by no means intending to suggest that it's the same cause! Simply that very low GDI resources on 98/ME OS have, in my experience, resulted in that imagelist (or multiple iterations of the first image) being blitted, without returning an error.

Hi e-on, I suddenly thought to check after your last message to see that the setting had remained at the new setting, and it hadnt, it was back to its original setting. According to my Windows book after changing colour depth it is not necessary to restart so I didnt the first time, but this time I did a restart, and it worked, plus the preview display is now correct. Thanks very much for that. Dave

Dave: Do yourself a HUGE* favor ... upgrade to Win2K. It is simply the best OS in existence. Second choice would be XP. Either way, get yourself running on an NT kernal (aka kickass). Trust me, you'll shed tears at the fact you didn't do it years ago. There is a HUGE difference. I'm not saying it will solve your problems with Vue (as it isn't for me), as the problems with Vue are wth E-on engineers, not the OS your running. I have an Nvidia card as well (like 90% of the world), so I suppose if E-on STILL has a problem with Nvidia cards, that could be the culprit. That would be sad, but not a surprise I suppose. -Tim

John: No problem on the rant, other than you're statements are completely false. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but you don't know what you're talking about. It wasn't clear from your post, but if you're using a non-NT OS (i.e. Win98, ME), then there is no point in even going any further. However, to address some of your other points ...

"If you're using Storm cards, then I'm frankly amazed that any software, including Premiere, works properly on your system."

Actually, everything works BEAUTIFULLY on my system. I run all my machines (save my laptops) 24/7/365 and I have yet to have ONE BSOD in Win2K ... EVER. Do apps crash? sure, occasionally, and even then it's always only the poorly-written ones.

"The suppliers won't take them back, they've no second hand value and Canopus have never answered any of my e-mails."

The fact that the suppliers won't take them back is no surprise since they're used, and that is on an individual supplier-basis, some will some won't, that's not Canopus's fault. First of all, email would be my LAST RESORT. I have emailed them and they always got back to me. BUT WHY NOT JUST CALL THEM?? They have FREE tech support and they're very good.

"... they're redundant anyway, why buy a capture card that's no faster than a standard firewire and uses a proprietary compression so that every frame captured has to be re-rendered?"

Wow, I don't EVEN know where to start here. But I'll try. First of all, it's many, many, many, many, many (you get the idea) times faster than a standard firewire card. It does everything in REAL-TIME, no rendering at all. I have no idea what you're talking about.

It is also the only card on the market (that I know of) that is future-proof. That is, it is fully scalable ... it only gets faster as computer hardware technology gets faster. It is not limited by the hardware of the card itself.

Finally, ALL realtime cards use a proprietary compression. Canopus happens to be recognized as one of the best. Secondly, I have NO CLUE what you're talking about when you say it needs to be re-rendered. This is simply not true, unless you're importing footage that was not captured using the Canopus DV-codec, and even then it takes no time at all to reformat clips. It think you need to RTFM before you give up on it, as you are missing out on one of the best realtime cards ever made.

Oh, and you said "they've no second hand value" ... yeah right, go list your boards on eBay or the Canopus forum ... see how long they last. They are in HIGH demand. Again, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, didn't mean to turn this into a Canopus discussion forum, but just needed to set the record straight. We now return you back to your regularly scheduled program.

-Tim

Lynn: Thanks for responding to this important issue. I'll post a reply in your newly created thread about tech support when i get a chance. However, when you said "you are incorrect about there being no customer service support." I'm making a distinction between customer service and tech support. I mean there is no way to contact someone on the phone about ANYTHING other than if you simply want to place an order, and even then those people (since it is just a call station and not E-on) have very limited sales info. It's simply a horrible way to run a company. I've called the Oregon number many times and have never spoken with a person. There is simply a voice message telling you to leave a message if you are with the press. Maybe I should pretend I'm with the press?? -Tim

Hi Tim, yes I do intend to upgrade Windows, or alternately have a new computer and use that for most of my graphics programs, whilst using the existing one for the Internet connection. I know many that do this, so if you should be unfortunate enough to catch anything nasty on the net, which is not impossible even with all precautions taken, you are not so likely to affect your important stuff. The other benefit of that is I would still be able to operate my old Meta Creations Painter 5 which I like a lot, and other older graphics programs on the old computer, as I have been told that some programs like Painter 5, will not run on XP, and maybe 2000. This time though I shall take a bit more time to look at set-ups more geared to graphics, when I moved from conventional sculpting to computer graphics 3 years ago, I didnt know how to even operate a computer. I just bought a system all Hewlett Packard, at the time with a reasonable sized processor, AMD Athlon 850, upgraded the memory to the maximum it will take 512. I had hoped that software would take care of itself, and to be honest, most of it has. I didnt really want the hassle of changing this and that to try to suit individual software, and then finding it had messed up the operation of something else. At age 57, I really wanted all my time to be devoted to developing my abilities with the graphics programs, and have spent little computer time doing much else. Hence my posts are all in one lump, as I havent even got round to learning how to use HTML properly.:) Thanks for your suggestions Tim; I shall keep them in mind. Dave

Let we all do what Guitta says, Install Vue on a seperate computer. Let's do that for every program that crashes. The only thing you have to ask yourself is; do you have the money and the space... Sorry, but when I log on I have 20 small programs running at the same time (backup, popupstopper, emailchecker, firewall, virusscanner, etc) and sometimes I have 5-10 programs started at the same time (I work in the IT and have to work with or test lots of programs). Why for god sake should I have a separate computer so that my Vue Pro will not stop crashing all the time? That's really rediculous! None of my graphics software is crashing (and I have at least 8 programs), serious, sometimes I have 3 or 4 open at the same time without a problem. Yes, let us blame the user, tell him/her that it's their fault. I plaid several hundreds of dollars for this software; can't I at least have a program that doesn't crash so much!! I don't care about a bug here and there, they will be solved, but keep the software in the air so that I don't lose everythign I'm working on. Nothin, but nothing I worked with in 25 years in the IT has crashed so much as Vue Pro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AMEN. Same here, EXCEPT for the initial release of Poser 5 ... but we all know what a bug-ridden piece of crap that was. It still has a mass memory leak when using the firefly renderer and shadow-maps, but other than that Vue makes it look wonderful. I can't remember the last app that crashed (besides Vue) ... it's been a LONG, LONG time. But don't you know, on this forum it's ALWAYS user error or the user's computer's fault. -Tim

And I've never read so many complaints in my whole life on one forum and trust me, I've visited so many. There have been people on this board who already expressed their worries BEFORE the product was released. Well if that doesn't tell you anything... And others have complained several times over the last few weeks and suddenly everybody speaks up once "Paid Support" is the subject. I've read in so many and many posts that people are almost waiting for over a week to get some reply from support. That says enough about how busy they are with all the complaints... And then L. Fredricks says somewhere; it's because people don't supply them fast enough with the necessary information. I don't believe one word of that!! There will be always exceptions, but I don't believe that the majority of the users who bought a brand new program that didn't cost $19 that has lots of problems are going to wait days to supply them with all the info Eon needs to solve the problem. It's all about competition. World Builder plays less of a role and so does Bryce and Eon knows that they can survive even with all these dissatisfied users, because let's be honest, where else are we going to find our bloody trees, rocks and mountains? Well great guys, you want to conquer the professional market? Guess what, the pros will be even more picky when it comes to quality. I believe not one moment that Vue Pro will be a great success among Pros, never. Especially now that Eon considers to ask them money for support. Imagine that you depend on Vue Pro as a professional. Imagine that your customers have to wait, because Vue Pro doesn't do what it's supposed to do. What are they going to say to their customers? "Sorry, but that's just part of being a beta tester" I made my point.

Tim: As you say, this isn't a Canopus discussion group, but there is a relevance in that you are attacking e-on for V4P's instability, then announcing that you are running a hardware setup that is not just unusual but (in my experience, not just mine trawl some NGs) very likely to lead to irresolvable hardware conflicts. You introduced Canopus support as a paradigm for small software house support, it may be great in the US, outside it's non-existent. So, detailed response: "No problem on the rant, other than you're statements are completely false. Please don't take this as a personal attack, but you don't know what you're talking about." Don't be silly, of course that's a personal attack. "It wasn't clear from your post, but if you're using a non-NT OS (i.e. Win98, ME), then there is no point in even going any further." I administer and maintain around 70 boxes, some running dedicated CAM OS's most people have never even heard of, the boxes in question were running W2KPro. "However, to address some of your other points ... 1) "If you're using Storm cards, then I'm frankly amazed that any software, including Premiere, works properly on your system." Actually, everything works BEAUTIFULLY on my system. I run all my machines (save my laptops) 24/7/365 and I have yet to have ONE BSOD in Win2K ... EVER. Do apps crash? sure, occasionally, and even then it's always only the poorly-written ones." Well, aren't you the lucky one? Want my job? I've got users who can crash anything from Linux prompt to notepad in XP Pro. "2) "The suppliers won't take them back, they've no second hand value and Canopus have never answered any of my e-mails." The fact that the suppliers won't take them back is no surprise since they're used, and that is on an individual supplier-basis, some will some won't, that's not Canopus's fault. First of all, email would be my LAST RESORT. I have emailed them and they always got back to me. BUT WHY NOT JUST CALL THEM?? They have FREE tech support and they're very good." Here in the UK there are laws which should give us recourse against the supplier but, frankly, we don't have time for litigation. Things may have changed since we had these problems (Feb, March and April this year) but then e-mail was our ONLY method of getting tech support - the phone numbers were unavailable outside of the US. "3) "... they're redundant anyway, why buy a capture card that's no faster than a standard firewire and uses a proprietary compression so that every frame captured has to be re-rendered?" Wow, I don't EVEN know where to start here. But I'll try. First of all, it's many, many, many, many, many (you get the idea) times faster than a standard firewire card. It does everything in REAL-TIME, no rendering at all. I have no idea what you're talking about." OK, steady now: that card that's piggy-backed onto your Storm card, the one that you plug everything in to? That's an IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, it's what the Storm card retrieves all its data through. It can't be any, any, any times faster than any, any, any other IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, coz that's what it is. What the proprietary part of the card does, that was once useful, is fast hardware MPEGing - redundant on a well set up, modern, machine. "It is also the only card on the market (that I know of) that is future-proof. That is, it is fully scalable ... it only gets faster as computer hardware technology gets faster. It is not limited by the hardware of the card itself. Finally, ALL realtime cards use a proprietary compression. Canopus happens to be recognized as one of the best. Secondly, I have NO CLUE what you're talking about when you say it needs to be re-rendered. This is simply not true, unless you're importing footage that was not captured using the Canopus DV-codec, and even then it takes no time at all to reformat clips. It think you need to RTFM before you give up on it, as you are missing out on one of the best realtime cards ever made." I very much doubt that any real-time capture cards are future-proof, they're all redundant. I can do real-time capture from a pro VidCam through the firewire on my laptop without dropping frames! Let me give you a clue about the re-rendering thing: you have a series of frames saved with non-standard compression, you have a series of frames saved with a standard compression: which takes the longest to render into a standard compression format? Would you like a clue? I spent longer RTFMing than was acceptable to either me or my directors. "Oh, and you said "they've no second hand value" ... yeah right, go list your boards on eBay or the Canopus forum ... see how long they last. They are in HIGH demand. Again, I have no idea what you're talking about." Disposing of company assets is not in my remit, however as I am getting the blame for buying this rubbish and I might find a sucker...

No it wasn't a personal attack, if so I would have called you a **&^%ing moron, but I didn't, I simply stated a fact ... YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOUR'RE TALKING ABOUT, and you have further exemplified this fact with the following statement:

"OK, steady now: that card that's piggy-backed onto your Storm card, the one that you plug everything in to? That's an IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, it's what the Storm card retrieves all its data through. It can't be any, any, any times faster than any, any, any other IEEE 1394 (firewire) card, coz that's what it is. What the proprietary part of the card does, that was once useful, is fast hardware MPEGing - redundant on a well set up, modern, machine."

First of all, you're talking about the MPEG encoder card (StormEncoder) and NOTHING gets plugged into it whatsoever. Second of all, it's not a Firewire card, it's hardware MPEG encoder and has nothing to do with DV capture. Finally, no of course it can't capture faster, it can only capture in realtime like every other card on the planet. However, I can layer 5 PIP's, nearly unlimited static or moving titles, plus effects and filters, ALL IN REALTIME. This is where it is faster ... when YOU'RE EDITING ... where it really counts.

Also, the OPTIONAL MPEG ENCODER is no more proprietary than any other card. It's the format used to author DVD's for pete's sake, what the hell are you talking about??? You only capture to this directly when you don't need to edit your material and want to take it right to DVD. Again, you're completly clueless and probably need to be fired if you misunderstood the Storm this badly. You're beyond inept. The sad part is, it's not that difficult a concept to grasp.

It seems to me you're either a) Full of CRAP, or b) A total moron. I doubt it is the latter, which leaves full of crap. Which seems to be the case since anyone owning a Storm would easily no these simple differences without even cracking open the manual.

-Tim

PS> There are plenty of "suckers" who know how powerful the hardware is that will take it off your hands for you. Trust me.

Oh, wait, and I love these:

"I very much doubt that any real-time capture cards are future-proof, they're all redundant."

Again, displaying your total lack of knowledge about the Storm card. (You like that word "redundant too", don't you? Don't see how it applies here.) Will the Storm still be around in 20, or even 10, years? Probably not, but it has been around for three years and is still blowing the other boards out of the water, without any need for a hardware upgrade. The same can't be said for any other card out there.

"I can do real-time capture from a pro VidCam through the firewire on my laptop without dropping frames!"

**[SARCASM FILTER OFF]**Oooooooo ... gosh golly, stop the presses! WOW, you mean you can actually capture something WITHOUT dropping frames?!?! That's FREAKIN' AMAZING!!! My God, what an idiot I've been all these years, I didn't know this was even possible! How can it do that??? [SARCASM FILTER ON] i.e., I would certainly hope so. If this were circa 1996 (e.g. an eon ago in digital video editing) I might be impressed I suppose.

"Let me give you a clue about the re-rendering thing: you have a series of frames saved with non-standard compression, you have a series of frames saved with a standard compression: which takes the longest to render into a standard compression format? Would you like a clue?"

You can't go handing out clues, when you haven't got one. DV by its very nature is a compressed format ... it's in the FREAKING STANDARD. SHEEESH!!! 3.5MB/s to be exact, and Canopus's is no different. Why do I need to re-render it into a "standard" compression format?? In exactly what situation would I EVER need to do this? If I need to get the edited footage to someone else I simply output the timeline (IN REALTIME with all filters/effects/titles, etc) right back out to the DV deck. Love to see a plain ol' firewire card do that, now that WOULD be impressive.

I DO think that is going to happen as machines get faster and faster. We're already seeing realtime playback of some effects on some machines in Final Cut and Premiere Pro, and if you're machine is really fast you can even get some realtime DV output.

Cheers,
Tim

Wow, good job on trolling me away from the issue at hand, I have to hand it to you, I almost missed this:

" ...but there is a relevance in that you are attacking e-on for V4P's instability ..."

I wasn't "attacking" e-on, I was stating the facts about MY experience with their software thus far and contrast/comparing it to all other software I have used. My experience does not seem to be all that different from many people's who have bought V4Pro. And, just a wild guess, I'm betting all of them don't have Storm cards.

"... then announcing that you are running a hardware setup that is not just unusual but (in my experience, not just mine trawl some NGs) very likely to lead to irresolvable hardware conflicts."

LMAO!!!!! I wouldn't call having a video editing setup (especially a rock-solid one like the Storm) unusual. And why does every other piece of software work flawlessly on that very same system?? Including the Storm. Guess I'm just making that up, eh? And what of the other non-bug, but feature issues? Those can't be (falsely) explained away by computer configuration, those are facts.

-Tim

Forum: Vue

Subject: vue pro opinions please-