You enjoyed the Renderosity Magazine You are really going to enjoy this! Exciting news Stop the Presses Coming in March 2004, Renderosity will launch a new subscription-based Interactive Magazine area. Not just another online magazine - but a "Magazine Experience!" Now you can have instant access to the magazine, be able to download new weekly freestuff, ask questions [in real time] of our online guest lectures, read famous artist exclusive interviews, learn from our interactive tutorials, and get up to the moment product reviews. New fresh content will be added on a regular basis. The focus will be on fun and learning in a professional interactive environment! Keep an eye on the Renderosity Front Page and Newsletters for additional information, as we get closer to launch date. If you have any questions, thoughts for stories, or if you would like to contribute to the magazine, please send an email to mag@renderosity.com. We appreciate your past support of the Renderosity Magazine and look forward to your continued support of Renderositys new Interactive Magazine and the Renderosity community. Sincerely, The Renderosity Magazine Team.

The Magazine Team looks forward to the new year and thanks the community for its continued support :) We are always looking for new ways to improve each issue, so we would appreciate your input as to what you would like to see featured in the comming year. Dee-Marie The Renderosity Magazine Team

I just received the email asking about the balance for remaining issues of the printed magazine. I would be interested by the subscription to the new online version except that there is no mention of how much that subscription will cost. Any idea about this ?

agiel - www.linfa.net

Hi agiel, Thank you for your continued support of the Renderosity Magazine. If you have any kind of balance due from your Renderosity Magazine subscription, there is no subscription costs to you for the coming years subscription to the New Renderosity Interactive Magazine. Dee-Marie

To paraphrase from someone who said it so more eloquently than I ever could... PAY for free stuff? PAY to get help and tutorials?? PAY for reviews that are free anywhere else??? You people must be getting awfully desperate for cash... I am counting the days until this site goes all pay, you are on your best way.

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

Oh, I don't think the people subscribing will find things that are available anywhere. The magazine was something special...something that couldn't be found just anywhere. I think the magazine team is going to make the online version something special too. You can hold me to that, if you want to, because I'm proud to say I'm participating in the project. You don't have any obligation to subscribe, of course. But I think the people who do won't be sorry.

I agree with dialyn and as a member of the team, I'm very proud of the upcoming issues. I'm definitely excited about the new "Experience". There can be no doubt that the magazine is fascinating, informative, and a very central part of the Renderosity community. The cover art on issue 1 was so appropriate. A wonderful thing was born in creating the magazine and more wonderful things will follow as the magazine matures. I really believe those who grow with it will be totally delighted.

Isn't all of the content in the magazine given freely to Renderosity? The only costs being the printing & shipping? Will there still be a print version of the magazine?

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

sorry guys... you have NO custom here. Have a look at the Forums. everything you are offering is already there! Eg : freebies.. hold the phone.. you have a FREEBIE SECTION. Tutes? again.. you have a section for it! reviews? sorry I make a point of never reading reviews made by ppl that sell stuff for that program, conflict of interest ya know? Talk to famous artists? well, I can do that aleady ya know... so again, sorry. this is a way bad idea for this site. please, go back and think again!

The reviews are not written by people who sell the stuff...I don't know where you got that information but it isn't true. I can't say what may be in the contents but consider this....an online magazine gives us the chance to have interactive tutorials, to have animation, to have sound where appropriate, to have graphics show in layers so you could actually see a graphic being created. It will not be a duplicate of what is on the forums in and in the free areas and galleries, but an opportunity to open up possibilities. If you are closed to the idea, don't participate. But I see this as a wonderful chance to enhance our services. BTW, it's easy to complain before something exists...how about making some useful and constructive suggestions so that we can be sure it knocks everyone's socks off when they see it? THAT would be a good idea. There is no on on the magazine, NO ONE, that doesn't want to see this be worth someone's time to look at it and the modest cost of the subscription. I think it will be a creation the community will be proud of.

What about my questions? Isn't all of the content in the magazine given freely to Renderosity? The only costs being the printing & shipping? Will there still be a print version of the magazine?

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

I think Dee-Marie would be the appropriate person to respond to your questions, which is why I did not try to address them. I can't speak to your questions because I'm not involved in the budget side of the magazine. I think we all hope that there will be a print version of the magazine at some time in the future, but whether it will be a subscription item, or an annual compilation is not for me to say. Not all of the magazine content is available on the Renderosity site....anyone who has seen the magazine knows that there is content beyond what is available here. And that will be true of the online version, I'm sure. I hope that helps. Anything else I would say would be speculation and I'm sure no one wants to read any more of my meanderings on the topic.

Hi everyone - I am going to address the above issues - just give me a couple moments :) Dee-Marie

Hi everyone,
Let me see if I can address the great questions that you have all posted.

hmatienzo : Thank you for your questions of why pay for freestuff when you can get it for free on the Renderostity site anyway.

Answer:
The Renderosity Interactive Magazine, will not be like the Renderosity site.

Due to the nature of the not wanting to give all our surprises away before we launch the first issue, let me just say that all the tutorials, articles, interviews, product reviews, that will be featured in the Renderosity Interactive Magazine will be of the same high quality that we have featured in our printed version.

Exclusive to the Renderosity Magazine is going to be the key word to answering your question :)

Caly
Isn't all of the content in the magazine given freely to Renderosity?

Will there still be a print version of the magazine?

Answer
At this time, we will no longer be producing a printed quarterly version of the magazine.

As to the Magazine content as practice with many magazines, the submission of articles and artwork to the magazine is considered a joint service.

Contributors offer us an article or image, and in return we promote that artist by featuring them within the magazine. It is a common practice in the publishing trade and is a win win situation for all parties.

As both an artist and a writer, I know how hard it is to get published for the first time. Being featured in the Renderosity Magazine has helped to promote many artists and writers, by giving them the opportunity to become a published writer or artist.
Which is a very prestigious honor to be published.

Kaibach
Your questions: I make a point of never reading reviews made by ppl that sell stuff for that program, conflict of interest ya know? Talk to famous artists? well, I can do that aleady ya know.

Answer
All of our product reviews are conducted by Renderosty members [Most have been written by our very own magazine staff, and I know none of them are software corporate execs] we do not feature product reviews by companies we may interview software corporate members, in our View from the Heights series but our actual product reviews are conducted by our Rosity members who are very eager for you to know all sides of a products performance be it good or bad :)

As to the famous artist Series I am so very proud of that section of our magazine. Vicki Shane, our star reporter has done an outstanding job with interviewing famous artists from all areas of the Art world. In our recent magazine [Issue 8], she was able to not only get one, but three very popular artists to sit down with her and share their private thoughts.

This was exciting for the both the magazine as well as the Renderosity Community, to have Rowena, Julie Bell, and Boris Vallejo featured within the Magazines pages. Vicki has several other interviews lined up for the Famous Artist series for future issues of the Renderosity Interactive Magazine.

As to you already knowing famous artist, and thus no need to read about them in our magazine maybe we could get you to do an interview with some of the Famous Artists that you know, we are always looking for new areas that would interest future readers :)

Thanks for your questions, Sincerely, Dee-Marie Renderosity Magazine's Senior Editor in Chief

I dunno about you, but I wouldn't pay for a subscription to any nontangible thing. I liked the magazine, but I won't subscribe to this new thing.

Ahh come on hell - I bet ya if you tried it you would like it ;] Happy Holidays Hellmark, I hope Santa makes all your wishes come true :) Dee-Marie

I just think it might be nice to criticize it AFTER people have had a chance to see it. But that's just me. I don't assume the jelly is sour until I've tasted it.

Heynow :] I can promise Everyone 2 things for sure about the coming new year: 1. no sticky fingers from jelly 2. no sour reviews from disappointed members to the new Renderosity Interactive Magazine :) Dee-Marie

"I just think it might be nice to criticize it AFTER people have had a chance to see it."

It may be nice for people to be able to see it to criticize it before paying for it, too.

But that's just me.

I don't assume a product is good before I get a chance to view it, either.

Sorry, it had to be said.

Hi CyberStretch
I agree with you, that you cannot praise a product before you view it - but dialyn has a great point about not critcizing something that you have not had a chance to review :)

Everyday, we as consummers, purchase products or services with a leap of faith :)

Prime example - when we go to the movies - We have seen the previews - and in some cases we have heard the promotions from the people who have created the movie - but until we actually plunk down our money, buy our popcorn, find the perfect seat, and the lights go out and the movie starts - we have No idea what we have just paid for.

And, you are saying ... well a movie is only a few dollars - I don't know about you, but going to the movies is a big expense for me. Usually a light dinner for two before hand [pizza], and you HAVE to have the popcorn and pop, and the price of a ticket usually starts around $7 a piece. So for two people, for one movie [that I have no idea if I will end up loving it or hating after my 2 1/2 hours are up] I have just spent well over $20.

There will be a front page to the magazine that will be open to the non-subscribers - We will feature the Magazine's content, have some article blurbs, and let you have an idea of what is inside - it will be then be up to you the readers as to what you what kind of "review" you give us when you are finished with the experience :)

Dee-Marie

Cyberstretch, seeing it before criticizing it is fair. I am sure there will be opportunities to see a preview. I just don't like people jumping on the naysay wagon before there is a product. Isn't it reasonable to hold judgment until we can roll out the product? And of course there will be people who don't want to subscribe because they think all content should be free and they shouldn't have to pay for anything. That's okay. They don't have to subscribe. And there will be people who take a quick glance, decide it isn't for them, and don't subscribe. That's okay. No problem with that. And the people who subscribe, don't like it and want their money back. I understand that. But for the people who complain before they see anything... well, I think you can suspect what I'd say if I wasn't such a genteel lady born in an age of better manners than this. You surely all have a lovely weekend, my dears. I am taking a stroll out of this thread now.

"Everyday, we as consummers, purchase products or services with a leap of faith :)"

That may have been more true pre-Internet, but anyone with access would be foolish not to seek out all information regarding the purchase - be it movie tickets, a video card, a sports car - before plunking down the cash; be it a dollar or a million.

Whereas the costs of an online magazine are far less than printed, why not make the entire first online issue a "selling point" for future versions? Why should the members trust the selected blurbs vs having the ability to gain the full experience? Do you honestly think the Members do not know that R'osity will - like any company - promote what they think are the best parts and leave off the bad or not-so-good? Marketing is nothing new, people have become used to the usual tricks of the trade.

===

"Isn't it reasonable to hold judgment until we can roll out the product?"

Isn't it also reasonable to be able present your opinion (ie, "I wouldn't pay for a subscription to any nontangible thing.") without being criticized when there is nothing yet to review?

Attached Link: Poser City

"I think the magazine team is going to make the online version something special too." Point of order. It's not a magazine if it's online. It's an E-zine. "But our actual product reviews are conducted by our Rosity members who are very eager for you to know all sides of a products performance be it good or bad :) " Really Dee Marie? I've never read one word of criticism for P5 in your publication or any other software now that I come to think of it? "As to you already knowing famous artist, and thus no need to read about them in our magazine maybe we could get you to do an interview with some of the Famous Artists that you know, we are always looking for new areas that would interest future readers :)" If that wasn't a wise ass comeback remark then I've never read one. Very unprofessional of you IMHO. I do realize you are being baited a bit here but you just can't let yourself go to flinging one liner comebacks. You get paid to do your job. That's all the quantification you need. I think the magazine was something special if not altogether objective in it's reviews. I have really enjoyed the excellent glossy artworks in the issues Ive received. But, I feel you guys should have sucked it up and filled all existing subscriptions before switching formats. Obviously the venture was losing money, so abandoning it was a business decision. Everyone here should be able to understand. But, seriously, this whole "Online Magazine" concept is shameful in my opinion. It's an obvious attempt to hang onto the income from magazine sales while eliminating the cost of its production. Why not just have Tim make one of hisoh so popular posts declaring it not profitable instead of this worthless spin? "It's an Online Magazine". I'm a 26k modem connection. I think I'll pass. Regards, Brent

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

Brent - I have known you for a long time, I was a member of your site and we have talked many time in Rosity Chat [under my ladynimue nick :) I am overly surprised [and a bit hurt] that you would even in the slightest way think that my request to Kaibach was anything but very real and very sincere! I do not, nor would I ever make a remark that would be anything else but! Especially when dealing with magazine issues. The magazine is Always Looking for content - and although Vicki has provided all of our Famous Artist interviews to date - I am very open to hear from all Rosity Members who wish to create content for the magazine. That is not to say that we accept every article that comes to us. We go over every article and accept or decline them for numerous reasons. As to the Renderosity Interactive Magazine - It is still a Magazine - Actually e-zines have been come to be liken to newsletters - if you do an online search using the word ezine or e-zine, that is what pops up the majority of the time. The Renderosity Interactive Magazine will retain the same feel and look as the Printed product - but with additional innovative and interactive features. We are very happy that you have enjoyed the Printed version of the Magazine - and we hope sometime in the future that you will reconsider and give the Renderosity Interactive Magazine. Sincerely, Dee-Marie

Hi again, We respect your opinions and we look forward to reviews of the magazine when it comes out :) As I stated above, we will have a preview page - and I promise that it will not hide the "bad stuff" cause, as with the printed version, the whole magazine will be of the same high quality - if you ar a current fan of the Rosity Printed magazine, you will not be disappointed in the Renderosity Interactive Magazine :) Dee-Marie

"We respect your opinions and we look forward to reviews of the magazine when it comes out :)"

Well, let's hope you can convince people to buy before seeing, first. Even print magazines offer free samples before requesting subscriptions - or you can check them out at the library, and their costs are much higher. I guess R'osity feels that they can be different because the content is of some higher quality.

Smells like a purely financial ploy to me, like many other "initiatives" as of late.

Thanks again CyberStretch - We really do appreciate your concerns and your past interest in the magazine, and I hope we can turn your opinion of the magazine around as soon as it is launched. I wish you and yours a most wonderful of holiday seasons. Sincerely Dee-Marie

Greybro: If that wasn't a wise ass comeback remark then I've never read one. Very unprofessional of you IMHO. I do realize you are being baited a bit here but you just can't let yourself go to flinging one liner comebacks.

For as long as I have know Dee-Marie...I have never known her to sling a "wise ass comeback" as you suggest. Based on my dealings with her and seeing her interact with other people, her response to Kaibach was a sincere and honest show of interest in having Kaibach do some interviews. It was an <>invitation not an intimidation!

That was a cheap shot Brent, not something I would expect from you and I'm very disappointed to see you take it. That cost you some of the respect I had for you. It takes a big man to admit when he's wrong...let's see how big a man you are Brent.

That fact that a quip is completely out of character for deeMarie was entirely my point. "I am overly surprised [and a bit hurt] that you would even in the slightest way think that my request to Kaibach was anything but very real and very sincere! I do not, nor would I ever make a remark that would be anything else but! Especially when dealing with magazine issues. " You've always seemed very sincere to me. I'll take you at your word on that and just say that I apparantly read more into it than was your intent. I end up stepping on my tounge almost everytime I post here. And for the record, I didn't mean that as some sort of attack on your personal integrity. You've been nothing but professional in my dealings with you. So, my apologies if you felt attacked by me earlier comment. It just seemed edgy and out of character for you hence my comments. I'm not happy about the "Magazine" switching formats and in general and less and less satisfied with the community changes that have become common place. On the other hand I think TRMP is running better than it ever has from my perspective. Being something of the old guard myself, I always feel this sense of loss when I feel a bad direction being chosen. You know, like your football team decides it's only gonna run that darn statue of liberty play on offense. You know it's a mistake and you feel compelled to speak up.

If you want to up your content game, get schooled to be a pro with Sixus1 Mentoring today!

Personally, when I pay for something, I want it to be something I can keep. With the magazines, I will have them untill I want to get rid of them (Knowing me, I'll always have them, concidering I've even kept onto magazines my dad and grandpa had going back to the '50s and '60s despite both of them no longer being among us). With this "interactive magazine", once they are removed from the server, they are no more, so I can't go back and read them (as I often do). Here's what I found for definition from a dictionary "A 'zine is a low-volume, periodic publication distributed to satisfy the publisher's whim rather than for profit." Seeing how r'osity is, I have to agree, that it is not a e-zine. I have to agree with stretch in that it seems to be more for monitary reasons. I do have to disagree with greybro, Dee aint the type person to do sling anything.

Thank you so much for re-viewing the words in my post. That is the downside of communicating with "finger-talk," you just can't see or hear the emotions and true feelings behind the words. So, it is understandable that mere words on the screen can be easily misconstrued. Huge hugs to you, and the magazine team really does respect and welcome your input. We really do want to know what you would wish to see in the new Renderosity Interactive Magazine, as well as what you Do Not wish to see :) After all, the Renderosity community will be our main focus for the magazine's content, and we want to bring you information that you want to read and view! We really do care about your input :) Huge Hugs to you Brent, and thank you for your kind words and sincere comments as to your concerns of the direction the magazine will be taking :) Dee-Marie

Thank you for your support of our new venture - we look forward to the product review from you :) Wishing you a most wonderful holiday season, Dee-Marie

Hi Hell, I love typing that - it just seems do decedent :] As to keeping things for a long time - I understand what you mean - I think most artist's are tactile-beings. To add to that, that Printed version of the magazine was very sensual - It was a visual delight, the paper felt "rich," the ink smelled expensive, it was something to be devoured, and savored; That was just the first impression, before even turning to the first page. The magazine team has worked very hard to make improvements with each printed issue, and with each issue the quality has only gone up. Yet, I have faith in this new venture, and the same amazing magazine team that will continue to strive for excellence! As to the new direction of the magazine: it is not being produced for profit - nor to satisfy the publisher's whim [as mentioned in the previous posting], but instead the magazine will continue to be produced for the enjoyment of Artists. The Renderosity Magazine and the new Renderosity Interactive Magazine is after all, created by artists, all members of the Renderosity community, with a strong devotion to the Renderosity community. Our main goal is to produce a high quality magazine, that has been and will be enjoyed by our past, present, and future readers. We care - we put our names, our talent, our time, and our unconditional dedication and devotion into the magazine. It is our labor of love, and we will do everything we can to meet the high expectations of our readers. Dee-Marie

Oh. I'm not closed to the idea.. just that I'm applying some logic. this area supplies a tute to do effect A I don't have a sub for this area, so I goto the Forum and ask for help there. Coupla hours later, I get info on how to do effect A. What does this do to your subs area? or do you remove the post in the forum that tells how to do effect A? Freebies in a paid area? please.. get this right. if they are in a paidfor area they are not free. Subscriber exclusives maybe. if they were free, you would not have them in a paid subs area would you? as for the artists I know.. sorry... the main one, My Father took a look at this and other sites and made it quite clear he ain't interested... something about 'cloned figures' (before anyone complains about that opinion, please note he's been hand-sculpting figures for over 30 years and painting with oil's since he was 10 - he appricates the work ppl put in, but can see the lack of choice in poser figures at this time)

Turns out you're a pretty big man after all Brent! Thanks for taking the time to reconsider Dee-Marie's comment and see it for what it was. You're stature has gone up a few notches in my book. ;^)

I have one more issue to go on my subscription so I'll be able to see it before deciding on continuing. I do prefer the physical magazine to an e-zine, personally but as there's only one more issue for me, it's not that big of a deal. Like DeeMarie described, it's the physical aspect, the visual, etc and being able to have it away from the computer that I enjoyed.

I have a suggestion though. Post a 'lite' version for people to try the first time. Lots more work I realize but you'll be giving people what they want and that's a chance to see what it is they're considering subscribing to. A front page may work but if you give them a little bit of a foot in the door as a freebie they'd be more likely to honestly review it.

...... Kendra

Hi Kaibach Thanks again for your input - How does Bonus Gifts sound instead of freestuff :) Also, does your father have a website that features his sculptures? I would really love to see his work. In college that was the one class I regretted not taking - a sculpting class [I did get to take fencing - but that is a whole different tale]. Thanks again for your input, we are open to all ideas. Dee-Marie

I appreciate you considerate words to Brent :) Dee-Marie

Hi there Kendra, I know you will love Issue 8, I am still waiting for my copy to arrive too - hopefully today :) Yippie!!!!!!! As to a mini preview site - I am sure as we get closer to the launch date, we will do as you suggest and we might even hold an open house for a few select members - A kind of review board :) I will be sure to put your name down as one of the potential testers :) Wishing everyone a happy holidays Dee-Marie

Attached Link: http://freelancewrite.about.com/library/weekly/aa012802a.htm

*As to the new direction of the magazine: it is not being produced for profit - nor to satisfy the publisher's whim...but instead the magazine will continue to be produced for the enjoyment of Artists.* Oh, so the price will be the bare minimum to cover bandwidth costs? *Contributors offer us an article or image, and in return we promote that artist by featuring them within the magazine...Being featured in the Renderosity Magazine has helped to promote many artists and writers, by giving them the opportunity to become a published writer or artist.* I can see how that may hold more weight if the magazine continued to be printed and available in a paper form. Of course there are a few reasons to write for free but I have freelanced before. Even if it just $1 an article/image it means more to be both published and paid. From the article at the link- "Sometimes you need to take yourself and your writing career seriously enough to insist on being paid." So what happens to those that had a print subscription that hasn't ended? Can they be refunded for the magazines that won't be happening in print?

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

FYI: the free items for the cd content is exclusive to the magazine for 90 days. Everyone submitting content signs a contract stating the content wont be distributed until the time period has expired. The provider also has to state they are the copyright holder of the material. ( I wish the marketplace had a contract on paper like that.) I didn't care for the way the bonus content was set up for issue 7. It was hard to work through a detailed tutorial having to be on-line to read it. It was new change and adjustments needed to be made. Several changes have been made since then. The tutorials are in downloadable formats for off line viewing. It makes it easier for those of us that start a tutorial one day then attempt to finish it later. All the content we were used to seeing on the cd is on the site. Instructions were provided for burning your own cd. These changes will make it possible for rosity to continue producing the magazine which is a good thing. I look forward to viewing the continuing evolution of the magazine.

IMHO, an eZine or "Interactive Magazine" is nothing more than any other web site that people can find anywhere on the Net.

R'osity should call it what it is: A Subscription-based web site; nothing more, nothing less.

"we might even hold an open house for a few select members - A kind of review board :)"

Why only a few and not all? Who will be the lucky few to be picked? Based upon what criteria?

I still see no viable reason why the first edition could not be used as a proving ground and allow all members the right to review it in full vs having to take second-hand suggestions from the "few select members" who will be entrusted to do the review.

Hey. I didn't even know it had shipped yet, cool, I hope mine gets here soon. If you go the potential tester route I'd be happy to help.

...... Kendra

You raise some interesting points Stretch.

What other websites that call themselves eZines or Interactive Magazines have you contacted and publicly urged them to call themselves what they are? I take it you feel that strongly not only about this particular "Interactive Magazine"...you feel that way about them all and will crusade for them all to call themselves subscription based websites, won't you?

Your concern about the value of the magazine and wanting all members to review it are good, but not practical, IMHO. It would be good, however, if the magazine were set up in such a way that members had the option of subscribing from month to month and a way to opt out of the subscription without penalty if they so desired. That way, the risk is minimized to the same as a paper magazine you buy at the newstand and find disappointing...you don't buy it anymore.

Caly - thanks for your input :) If you have a balance due on your magazine subscription, you will be given the option to either get the remaining amount due you: 1. Gift Certificate 2. a Cash refund [in the forum of a check] 3. or have a years worth of the Renderosity Interactive Magazine for free Dee-Marie

Thanks so much for your kind and thoughtful words :) Sincerely, Dee-Marie

Please everyone - Lets not let our passions get the better of us. And I do realize that everyone is very passionate about their feelings towards the magazine and the Renderosity site. We really do appreciate your input - As to getting a sneak look at the Magazine - I assure everyone that there will enough content for review - that you will not be disappointed. As to the exact details of what we will be featuring and how we will be previewing it - that will be announced at a later date. Right now all we are doing is letting our members know that there will be a change in the magazine's format. The bottom line - is ... 1. We will not be publishing a quarterly Printed version of the magazine 2. We will be launching the Renderosity Interactive Magazine in May. 3. Those who do not want to continue with the new magazine format and have a subscription balance can get a gift certificate or a refund. 4. We will be previewing the magazine, and the details of that will be announced at a later date. 5. Please keep all commments in the thread directed toward the Magazine! 6. Keep in mind the the Member/User Conduct, when posting to this or any ROsity Thread. Members and users are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that is constructive and respectful of others at all times. Additionally, we would hope that each member/user would do their best to facilitate a culture of collaboration and positive reinforcement, so that we can all share our passion for art while realizing our personal ambitions, and developing friendships. 7. As we get closer to the time of publication we will post more details of the magazine's content. 8. Although we would love everyone to enjoy the magazine, we understand that some will not wish to join in the journey with us. That is fine - and we understand that some people prefer a Printed Version. 9. We already have several members who are contributing to the new magazine format and look forward to hearing from members who would also like to contribute to future issues. 10. A special thank you to all the Rosity members who have supported the magazine in the past, and we look forward to giving you the same quality product as you have grown to enjoy! 11. This will not be an ezine - but a new concept in Magazine publication! Dee-Marie

Hey everyone, I hate to leave right now, but I am not feeling well - I am going to sign off for the evening and will pop back on in the morning. THanks again for your consideration in posting, and also for your constructive and helpful comments. We really do care! Thanks so much Dee-Marie

Dee-Marie... you got the patient of a saint, girl... And while I might not agree with this e-mag, I do admire your stamina! :-)

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

I want something I can hold in my hand and show to people and say 'check out page XXX'.... I can't do that for something online.

Hi hmatienzo, Thank you for your kindness - and I do hope we can change your mind about the Renderosity Interactive Magazine when it comes out :) Happy Holidays! Dee-Marie

Hi Sean,
Loved your article in issue 8.

I understand what you mean by the enjoyment of holding a magazine in your hands. I too shall miss the printed magazine - I think what I shall miss the most, is when I pick my copy up at the Post Office. Especially this time of the year - when the lobby is crowded, and everyone oooooohhhhs and awwaaaaaaaas as I slowly open the wrapper and share the excitement of viewing the finished magazine for the first time.

I always run around to complete strangers and make everyone smell the ink, feel the pages, and look at the pictures. Instead of calling the loony-bin thinking I have gone crazy, everyone delights in the enjoyment and beauty and has nothing but wonderful words of praise - and there is no denying, that the printed version shall be missed.

However, it is with that same love and devotion of the magazine that drives the magazine team to keep the magazine alive. When I mentioned above that the magazine is a labor of love - I was not exaggerating. Not only putting the magazine together, but also working with the amazing magazine team.

The magazine staff is a dedicated, and hard working bunch. They are devoted to the Renderosity community they know that what goes into the magazine not only reflects Renderosity, but also reflects the members who contribute to each issue, and also it reflects each team member. When I say team member I really mean that, as we work as a team the old saying that there is no i in teamwork, as corny as it may seem really does apply here.

It is because of this undying dedication to Renderosity, the Renderosity community, to the magazine, and to each other that, yes we would hope that past readers would know, that we would never give you a product that was less than high quality less than the best that we can do. So, although every member of the team [like our readers] is greatly sadden by the fact that we will no longer be producing the quarterly version of the magazine, we are still excited at the prospect of blazing new ground with the Renderosity Interactive Magazine.

The team wishes everyone a most wonderful holiday season and we eagerly look forward to this new and exciting year a year of changes and great expectations!

Dee-Marie

I have to agree with hmatienzo, dee-marie. It is a pleasure to see someone discuss an issue in an adult manner; despite the tenacity of the questions brought forth.

If you are at liberty to discuss it, some of the hows and whats have been addressed, but I have not seen anything touching upon the whys. Nor have I seen a reason given why R'osity could not allow the first edition to be seen by all vs a few. IMHO, that, above all else, would be your most successful marketing tool in garnering support for a paid subscription.

As to the promotion of the magazine let me get Lillian in here the next time she is online - She can better answer those question :] Right now - I have have to get back to work on getting the magazine up and running :) I promise to pop by later to help answer any new questions or comments. Sincerely, Dee-Marie

As I have stated above, we really do care what you think and appreciate your comments - both pro and con.

Knowing what the community likes or dislikes, helps us grow as a magazine :)

However - Please keep the comments and questions directed towards the magazine Not towards other members.

Members posts that are not directed toward the magazine and are only directed towards others in a negative famous will be deleted.

Thanks everyone for your understanding.

Sinerely,
Dee-Marie

hmmm but you've still not answered a concern about this service. say there's a tutorial about rigging a poser figure in the Sub's area. and in the Poser Forum, a request for the same information is made and answered? will the tutorial be made free? will the post in the forum be removed? basically what is the plan for dealing with such a matter? if you leave the tute in the sub's area, you can be accused of ripping off the subscribers. if you remove the post from the Forum, then you can be accused of censorship or worse. I'd think this out VERY carefully.... ppl will be watching your answers on this.. and believe me you NEED to answer this concern.

Hi Kaibach
Hopefully I understand what you are asking, please correct me if I am wrong. [and I mean that in a most sincere way]

An article is published to the Renderosity Interact Magazine: concerning rigging a figure in Poser.

Flash forward a few days after the Renderosity Interact Magazine Issue #1 has been launched.

After the article has been published to the Renderosity Interact Magazine Issue [lets say issue #1 just for this example], a member in the Poser Forum asks the same "exact" questions about rigging figures in the Poser Forum.

The author of the Renderosity Interact Magazine's article [tutorial] that appeared in Issue #1, just happens to be in the Poser Forum, and in the interest of assisting other members, he helps them with their Poser rigging questions - using the same exact words that he did in his Renderosity Interact Magazine article.

Your question: Would this be a "magazine contract violation" and would his thread be removed?

If he was just giving helpful advise in his own words, and not quoting the whole article - No - it would not be a violation of contract, and Yes it would be allowed.

However, if he copied and paste in whole or in part any portion of the published article[without written consent from the Magazine], in its edited polished Renderosity Interactive Magazine Format into the forum - before the 3 months after the publication of the magazine his article was listed in - even if it was in 20 different non-consecutive thread postings - Yes it would be a violation.

However, 90 days after publication, the article reverts back to the author and he is free to post or resell the article to whomever he/she wishes. This is a standard magazine contract and standard magazine practices.

Second scenario
Lets say a member who is Not the author of the article , and in his eagerness to help someone, decides to quote word for word from the magazine article. That member would be in violation of a copyright act and could, if the author wished to press the matter, sue for copyright infringement.

Thus that member would most likely be given a TOS warning or worse [depending on the circumstances] and Yes, his thread would be removed from the Poser Forum.

Exception: small parts as in blurbs, which would be one or two sentence can be in specific cases referred to, for educational purposes, as long as the document [in this case the magazine] was named and the author of the article listed.

This does not however mean that a person can over a long thread post the whole article in tiny little blurbs. :)

Dee-Marie

ok... once I wade through the corporate blurb in that.. yes that does answer my question, but brings into mind why we need this subs area... the mag was good in a printed form, since as most ppl don't have a dual monitor setup as I do, having a hard copy is very handy. but having an online form of the same info I can get for free? that makes the idea of buying a sub very iffy. (as for online content, since I hardly use vickclone or mikeclone, freebies for those have very limited use for me, and judging by the use of those figures round here, well.. (I come mainly for the trueSpace forum and tech help on poser. and the rare non-vick/mike item that pops up))

"If he was just giving helpful advise in his own words, and not quoting the whole article - No - it would not be a violation of contract, and Yes it would be allowed."

As happens a lot in the technical sector, much of a technical article could be simple instuctions that you cannot change the wording of due to the nature of the application. Would these excerpts be allowed, along with different wording, if necessary, to flush the idea out more?

It seems to me that if the author is providing content for the magazine for free, there should be no restrictions on usage to the author; except maybe in the case of competing sites. This brings into question whether being "published" is adequate compensation for the Magazine to even request that the author refrain from using any portion of the article for any length of time. In essence, the author would be allowing the Magazine first publication rights, and nothing more; except maybe reprint or other rights as deemed necessary.

Also, eductional usage is a legit reason for Fair Use. If you are teaching someone how to do something, this clearly is an acceptable Fair Use practice.

US Copyriught Law Section 107:

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

Whereas this is permissable under the law, how can R'osity restrict rights granted by the Federal Government? BTW, Fair Use does not only apply to the copyright holder, but anyone using copyrighted works.

Hi Kaibach

Actually, the Renderosity Interactive Magazine will have the same high quality content that was found in the Renderosity Magazine.

And in reality, if someone has a scanner they can scan an OCR [Optical Character Recognition] of the article and use it in the same manner of the above scenerio. In that respect the Renderosity Interactive Mgagazine would be no different than the Hard Copy version.

I appreciate you comments about what you would like to see featured in the "Bonus Merchant Product Preview Download" section [aka the exclusive product downloads only available for a limited time through the Renderosity Interactive Magazine].

Let us know what kind of things you would like to have available to you as an exclusive download. Do you want models that can be used in any program? Do you want .3ds file format? Or is it just the item kind of item you are looking for?

My interest is anything that would deal with the Arthurian Legends Era - So I would be interested in anything dealing with castles or knights, horses, or dragons etc.

You may be more interested in Sci Fi. Just let us know what you would specificly want to see - Also, now that we know you are interested in TrueSpace - we can find a Rosity member who would be willing to write an in depth exclusive tutorial for the Renderosity Interactive Magazine :)

Dee-Marie

I find this very sad. This does change everything. I am not one of the ones fortunate enough to have a laptop.. so how will I be able to read this online magazine on the bus or at our small cabin in the woods on the weekends? That is when I would like to read it.. I don't read magazines while sitting at the computer.. I'm sorry

CRITIC, n. A person who boasts himself hard to
please because nobody tries to please him.

I am not a copyright expert although I do know and understand the copyright laws pertaining to Images and the written word. I will refer you to my above thread posting as to the questions already asked on this topic.

Bottom line, - any detailed copyright law information will need to be answered by JenyK our expert in that field.

Also - All artists sign a contract [publishing agreement] with Renderosity concerning their article that will be published in the Magazine. This contract is sent along with the invitation to submit a story. The contract is written in very clear and concise lanuage so that the writer knows what their article will be used for, how long it will be used, and when full rights to the article will revert back to the author.

Dee-Marie

I understand what you are saying, it is nice to have something that you can hold in your hands and read while away from the computer - I know I don't get away from the computer enough - and enjoy my time not reading from a monitor. However, although we have always done our best to bring amazing interviews and breathaking images to the hard cover magazine. Still the bulk of the content was devoted to tutorials. Thus, you needed to be online to take full advantage of the tutorial content anyway. Having the tutorials online already - will actually make it easier to take advantage of them. Thanks so much for your comments.

"Bottom line, - any detailed copyright law information will need to be answered by JenyK our expert in that field."

Then I await JenyK's involvement.

"All artists sign a contract [publishing agreement] with Renderosity concerning their article that will be published in the Magazine. This contract is sent along with the invitation to submit a story. The contract is written in very clear and concise lanuage so that the writer knows what their article will be used for, how long it will be used, and when full rights to the article will revert back to the author."

This is all well and good from an author perspective, although I would think that adding restrictions that may curtail the author's ability to market their copyright material would be a deterrent vs being an incentive to give to R'osity for free; especially when the publication is virtual now and not physical - which is better to build one's portfolio with.

The Publishing Agreement does not extend to subscribers and, therefore, would be inadequate to protect R'osity against Fair Use by subscribers. Likewise, the author would be considered a subscriber if using material directly from the published Magazine and would be presumably covered by Fair Use in that perspective, as well. Whereas this, too, is a copyright-related issue, I will await JenyK's participation.

RE: "US Copyright Law Section 107"

The spirit of this provision of the law was to allow limited distribution and sharing of information not wide-spread distribution as would be done if a copyrighted article from the "magazine" was posted by a member on a forum available to several hundred thousand members.

Once a contract is agreed to, even the author of the article would would be hard pressed to show his publishing the article on such a forum constituted fair use, until the assignment of copyright and usage reverts back to him. If Renderosity and the author have a valid contract restricting the author from any use of his submitted material for 3 months after publication, the author is bound to that contract.

Many publications offer no compensation other than "publication bragging rights" to budding authors. Whether being "published" is adequate compensation is up to each individual author to decide. There are some that will turn away from doing so simply because they feel knowledge should be freely shared. Those that feel their efforts have greater value or those authors that feel they are established enough to warrent some other form of compensation will not agree to their works being published. In such cases, it will be up to Renderosity to either offer compensation of value to those authors or seek content elsewhere.

Those interested in knowing what print publications offer can pick up a copy of the Writer's Market (or the Artists Market for artists). It lists thousands of publications and their rates. Many, many publications offer copies of the publication or "tear sheets" (copies of the article) as compensation, if they offer anything at all. It depends on the publication, it's size, their target market, their budget, and many other factors. Until an author builds up a resume, and attains some recognition...they can rarely expect to receive much in the way of compensation.

{{{{It seems to me that if the author is providing content for the magazine for free, there should be no restrictions on usage to the author...This brings into question whether being "published" is adequate compensation for the Magazine to even request that the author refrain from using any portion of the article for any length of time.~~CyberStretch}}}} Good point Cyberstretch. 3d World Magazine pays close to $500.00 for a 4 page tutorial, and close to $1000.00 for 6 page tutorials and articles for 90 days exclusivity. After the 90 days are over, one gets to do whatever one wishes with the material, including resell it again. What I don't get in all this, is that with Rosity Magazine getting totally free content, free labour force to put the magazine together, and now free of even paper publishing costs... why can't this magazine be kept afloat financially?

Wow, this thread has grown since I was last here. I'll stay out of the copyright issues since I'm just a know nothing in that area. As for the magazine.... 1. I don't think that all the tuts in the mag are available on the free forums here. I know that because I do the technical editing. But if you do find the same or similar thing here, remember, this is a great place and there is much to learn by being a member. 2. Conflict of interest is not always a bad thing. As long as it is known, its ok. Where conflict of interest becomes a problem is where the person hides the conflict then uses it for a hidden bias. If the cards are on the table, the information can be very valuable to the reader. Sometimes the best review is from someone on the inside who has worked with the product. I had the privilege of beta testing two softwares. One was code name Ovation. It was an HTML web development program written by a flight student of mine (and i'm proud to say, a fine pilot and aircraft owner today). The concept was to make a drag and drop HTML editor for the average newbie in computers who wanted to put up a family web site and had no idea how to go about it. Some of the concepts were considered "impossible" to do. The code finally sold to Sierra and was on the shelf as Sierra's Web Studio. The coder bought it back recently and sells it online from his website which is backtothebeachsoftware. If I had to give a review on Ovation/Web Studio, I would be giving a review that had some insight that no one else would have. I also had the privilege of being on the beta team with Mojoworld from pre-release through 2.0. While my contributions were minor compared to others, I can say that we all worked hard to find ways to break the program and send the coders into late nights with the coffee pot. Doc Mo responded personally and worked his tail off to make a winning application. A review from someone who really knows the app would be better than a review from someone who thinks the mouse is the foot pedal "on" switch to his sewing machine. Wanna make a better crow bar? Give it to the kid in the sandbox. Wanna hear how strong and solid that crowbar is? Ask the kid in the sandbox. Reviews from those on the inside are very worth while and I doubt you will see much of them in forum due to NDA's and whatnot. But, you might see them from rare time to time, in the mag. 3. Freestuff cannot be found everywhere. While some of the freestuff in the mag can be found in the 'Osity freestuff, I know for a fact that there is at least one item upcoming which cannot be found in the free section. I'll say no more. 4. Online mags do cost. We all work hard to produce quality. There are indirect costs for time away from other things and there are direct costs for bandwidth, storage space, database management for subscription deliveries, and consultation with experts to optimize and protect the product. We all give up our time. I made a decision to walk out of the office to the elevator every night between 6 and 7 pm so that I can have time at home to play, do what I enjoy, and help others with the magazine. If the money that comes in from the mag helps keep this great site running, then I'm all for it. I and others would know nothing about 3D if it were not for this site. All of the great help that each of you have posted in forum by answering my questions is not forgotten. I support this site by helping with questions that I can answer, by running the Poser Forum Challenge, and by working with the magazine. You can support this site too and get something back in return. 5. Other mags pay for articles. Well, some do, some don't, and some give lofty percentages of mytical formulas that work out to Jack Squat in the mail box come payday time. And they inundate you with advertisements. You ever see advertisements in the printed Renderosity mag? Did you pay $13.95 for ten pages of text and 20 pages of ads on really cheap paper? Noooo, you did not! It was a pure creation never before seen and well worth the price for every page. Although, I have to confess that I have bought advertising magazines just for the single purpose of seeing what's new and what's out there. What a great way to make money ... collect a fee from the advertiser and then charge the viewer to read the ad! But that's a snide remark that will get me banished to the JarJar corner again. If I had my way, 'Osity would be advertising because I think we all benefit from seeing the state of the art in 3D. By the way, none of this is official 'osity stuff, just my personal and humble opinion. Ok, I'll go to the jarjar corner now.

"The spirit of this provision of the law was to allow limited distribution and sharing of information not wide-spread distribution as would be done if a copyrighted article from the 'magazine' was posted by a member on a forum available to several hundred thousand members."

Copyright Law - the governing law - does not stipulate any given quantity and, therefore, I presume you are incorrect. The only cases I have seen involved copying and using a substantial portion of the publication - of which, one tutorial would not be considered substantial.

If it is a learning/teaching session on a site that may have "several hundred thousand [listed, not active] members" which - at any given point in time - less than 2,000 (1%) are online, and an even smaller fraction visit the forums in general, with an even smaller fraction participating in that particular thread, I am sure that you can see that the "several hundred thousand members" becomes a moot - if even existent - point.

The "numbers game" is always played here and hardly factors into anything from a practical standpoint. Just think of how many news/review sites there are, their audience, and you will see that the scenario you presented is extremely far-fetched.

"Once a contract is agreed to, even the author of the article would would be hard pressed to show his publishing the article on such a forum constituted fair use..."

Not so. The author-publisher relationship does not preclude nor interfere with the subcriber-publisher relationship. The Federal (remember that word, it is important) rights of Fair Use apply to everyone (that word is important, too).

More likely, R'osity will have a hard time proving it was not Fair Use; since the whole purpose of a tutorial is to tutor (ie, teach) a subject. The most R'osity could hope for is using such a stipulation against future publication (ie, if you make your material available, we will not publish your tutorials again). Here again, an author would be daft to accept such terms and R'osity would be jeopardizing the content they rely upon for the Magazine to be successful if they did press the issue; so R'osity would lose either way.

Attached Link: http://www.opinionjournal.com

*"why not make the entire first online issue a "selling point" for future versions? Why should the members trust the selected blurbs vs having the ability to gain the full experience? Do you honestly think the Members do not know that R'osity will - like any company - promote what they think are the best parts and leave off the bad or not-so-good? Marketing is nothing new, people have become used to the usual tricks of the trade."* He does have a point here... For instance, The Wall Street Journal launched an online subscription article detailing John Fund's political notes and gossip concerning the upcoming 2004 election. When they launched, the article was free for all to read for two weeks (a new article pops up each weekday), so that folks could see up front exactly what they were being asked to pay for. Enough folks found it worth the $3.95/month to keep it a going deal for the WSJ. You can find the article and site in question at the linky up top of this post. IMHO, maybe y'all (R'osity PTB) oughta pay up for the articles and such. It will bring you a whole bucket of submissions from which to choose, and seriously guys... your own jobs/classifieds forum is a living exercise in why folks usually turn their noses up at "exposure" as payment. You want the best, be prepared to pay for it is all I'm saying. (shrug.) /P

being on the far side of the world and all.... heads off to fight some french frigate with cannon and a bunch of jolly tars

Please forgive me for posting information that I mayn have previously posted. However, I do realize that this is a long thread and some words may have been missed or mis-read.

All serious writers are aware that it is can be very hard to get your first article published. To add to that, many of the bigger magazine publications do not even look at work from writer's without some publication credits to their names.

Thus, it is common practise in the magazine industry, especially for small specialized publications [like the Renderosity Magazine] to offer space in their magazine to writers who have never been published before. This helps both the magazine to gather content, and for the writer to gather publishing credits.

Some of the smaller publications offer a "tear-sheet," which is just as it sounds - a sheet from the magazine that only contains the article written by the artist. Others, like Renderosity, give the author a copy of the the issue that they are featured in.

Posting the rates that the "3D Word Magazine" pays to its writers - that is wondeful, and I hope every Renderosity Member submits an article and gets accepted into the magazine. And I mean that sencerely!

However, I am sure that you will agree with me, that comparing 3D World with Renderosity does not in any way what so ever - apply to this situation! You are comparing a huge corporate producted Magazine - to our little community magazine.

What has always set Renderosity Magazine apart from other publications, is that we are here to promote Renderosity Members. The majority of our articles are written by artists - not professional writers. To add to that, I would venture, that the majority of artists who have submitted articles to the magazine have never even thought of doing so, and to that respect, it was a labor of love for both the Artist - to see their article and images in print, as well as the magazine team who helped them get there :)

Renderosity Magazine is not like anything out on the market.
Our motto from its conception has been to be a magazine for the Renderosity Members by the Renderosity Members. And we have succeeded in our goals!

The magazine gets great satisfaction from our teamwork - from our belief in the Renderosity Community, in the Renderosity artists, in the Renderosity philosophy of one artist helping another.

Each Issue of the Renderosity Magazine is a true labor of love. Love for the Renderosity Site, love for the Renderosity members, and we [the magazine team] offer our time and talent freely to promote a site that we LOVE being apart of!

If you have read an issue of the magazine, you would realize just how much of the Renderosity teamwork and devotion to the site and community comes through with each issue!

Dee-Marie

{{{{Posting the rates that the "3D Word Magazine" pays to its writers - that is wondeful, and I hope every Renderosity Member submits an article and gets accepted into the magazine. And I mean that sencerely! However, I am sure that you will agree with me, that comparing 3D World with Renderosity does not in any way what so ever - apply to this situation! You are comparing a huge corporate producted Magazine - to our little community magazine.~~~ Dee-Marie}}}} Hi Dee-Marie :) Its not necessary to be someone special, or have published in the past to get published at 3D World Magazine. I mean, they even took an article from me, so that proves anyone can get a chance ;P And they paid me well enough that my family is going to get a great Christmas too :) They are a TINY little company. I bet Rosity Mag has more "staff" working to put it together than 3D World Mag has :) They don't run a ton of ads and no content... they are one of the best tutorial based content mags out there, all authors paid a decent going rate for their work :) And they manage to distribute internationally, whilst publishing a highly successful magazine on a shoe-string budget, and it all works for them. They are really nice people too, as far as working with them :) They sent me free copies to give to me mum! ;P

Dialyn, I fail to see why you think that pointing out the facts about other markets, and 3d World Magazine is "grinchy". And I also fail to see why you think anyone either asking questions, or pointing out legitimate alternate views on things are some sort of an attack always on Rosity. I think you are sort of prejudiced in your views for some reason that eludes me, particularly since you have never been shown anything except kindness by me.

Dialyn, I think you're looking for problems because it's quite a stretch to find one in Mehndi's post. It didn't contain one word about her site or one word against this site. It was about the magazine DeeMarie was refering to. I also love 3D World Mag and have been a subscriber for 2 years now. It's absolutely full of tutorials and articles. Very little advertising and a CD full of free stuff and demo's every month.
Mehndi was just confirming what DeeMarie said about submitting articles. If you wont look at 3D World simply because someone you don't like had an article published it's most definitely your loss and no one elses. You'll also find lot's of Renderosity artists images accepted.

...... Kendra

I LOVE 3D World and I am overjoyed for you that they accepted your article and that now you can afford Christmas gifts because of it - as I would have been very sadden to think of you not having a great holiday! I truly am very proud of your article being accepted - it is an honor to be published!

I still stand behind my statement that 3D World is NOT a Tiny Magazine! They are sold in magazine stands worldwide, I know the figures, the stats, I have done my homework :) That is not to say that they are not an amazing publication! Because they are outstanding in what they do :)

Many of our members who are published in the past issues of Renderosity Magazine did not have your success in getting an article published in 3D World, nor did the majority even wish to. They are very please and excited to be able to give back to the Renderosity Community :)

As is the Renderosity Magazine ;]

We at the magazine team stand behind our Magazine and the Renderosity members. We are a magazine devoted to Renderosity and to the amazing artists that are devoted to this site! The magazine is created from love for the artist and the community and the Renderosity Site! This makes us very unique! And Very Special !

We are so very proud of our publication, and our Magazine Staff as I am sure that the staff at 3D world is proud of theirs :]

Happy holidays to you Mehndi and we wish you new year filled with many magical moments!

Dee-Marie

I am posting this reminder again - Member/User Conduct: Members and users are expected to conduct themselves in a manner that is constructive and respectful of others at all times. Additionally, we would hope that each member/user would do their best to facilitate a culture of collaboration and positive reinforcement, so that we can all share our passion for art while realizing our personal ambitions, and developing friendships. Members/Users will not use this community for; Destructive commentary/communications made with the intent to disrupt or attack (Trolling). This applies to any communications within this community, whether in the forums, art galleries, graffiti wall, chat, or IM Dee-Marie

hmm well I'm not attacking the work thats been done, I am merely queationing why we need this? we have the forums. the tutorial section. the freebie section. there was a reason for the paper magazine, but for a paid for subs area on a site that already offers so much? logically why is it needed? it's not... sorry to pull logic on this, but with all the problems this site has had with it's infrastructure, adding more and more complexity is well.. stupid. Dee-Marie? I'm sorry, but with the policy of not paying for content work, I have to refuse any approach me for content. if you go ahead with this illogical subs area and start paying for work then I would be interested. at this time tho.. I see no point when I can give the information for free in the forums and be free to take my work anywhere. being bound to a contract for no payment? no. a contract and being paid? yup. well I'm bowing out of this thread now.. to me it's a illogical idea which should be dropped.. but I know it won't be.. and another mistake is made...

Now, back to the actual issue at hand :) Dee-Marie, I at least, and I do not think anyone else is either, am NOT implying that this new form of magazine won't be great stuff, of the highest quality, and highly desirable :) I am sure it will, since our community has some of the greatest artists who have ever lived in it, bar none. True masters :) What I think you are missing that many are trying to bring to the fore is this: 1) Why not pay the authors, since this "magazine" is a paid subscription and not free? Why ask the authors to give away their content for "fame" when the magazine itself makes money? 2) Since it is the plan to not pay authors, then why restrict their rights to sell their work to someone who will pay for so long? That is all we are asking? :) You see... just like most of the artists here, I am a "starving" artist too. I am just so glad I did get paid from 3d World Mag, or as you have aptly guessed, my own ability to give personal gifts to my family would have been incredibly limited, due to being disabled. (Well, actually I am very lucky, Russell would have bought my presents for me, but I love it that I got to spend my own money I earned myself to do it :) ) Lots of the artists here who are the very best, are also disabled and need a way to make a little money or they too won't have a nice christmas. So being paid for your work if it is good enough to get published is such a nice thing for the artist, both fame wise, and financially. So why not pay the artists? Or else let them try to sell the article to someone who will pay? Why hold them back to this 90 days exclusive thing and not pay? That is all we are asking :)

okay... having seen the removed posts, (I had my interest peaked to comeback) I have to ask.. where were the attacks on ppl? there were none by the TOS you quote. please do not censor a discussion in progress when the TOS is NOT being broken. if WE have to stick to the rules so do YOU. Thank you.

Only threads that have featured personal attacks - have been removed. Those threads that did not make a direct attack nor call members names have remained. I have posted the TOS - 3 times in this thread with reminders to please refrain from direct name calling towards other members :) Thank you so much for your understanding Dee-Marie

you know.. a saying comes to mind here.. 'Who Watches the Watchers?' we have, by the way the TOS is being applied, an attack on a member in this thread being ignored and posts that are not attacks being removed, with quotes about attacking members being used to explain. how about some consistancy? - apply the rules as written and without favour.

Eeeks, I could have sworn I reposted this! Maybe it did not upload :( I'll try again :) ======================================================== Ok, now that I have clarified that it was only me complaining of bad treatment of me that Dee-Marie found offensive, and the precise complaint she found offensive, I will work on re-posting my message :) I trust this will be satisfactory to you Mom! :) ======================================================== Original Post - Edited to remove what Dee-Marie finds offensive: LOL! Since we are all able to "speak our mind", I'd like to point out Dee-Marie, that with all due respect, we cannot possibly be discussing the same Renderosity ;p The WHOLE REASON the TOS exists here is so that the community CANNOT speak it's mind. This has just been proved that after all ;p One cannot say what anyone is REALLY thinking, one can only drop hints, because if one really speaks one's mind things get deleted. Ok, but enough of the freedom of speech issue. That is not what this is about. As for 3d World Magazine, refusing to read it, or buy it, or support it, is sort of cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Ironically, anyone who boycotts 3D World Magazine based on silly little things like who has been published in it is actually giving Renderosity less support than Russell and I do every single month. You see, Rosity is a major supporter of 3D World Magazine, contributing a several page gallery spread every single issue. 3D World in turn reciprocates by driving traffic here. We buy 3D World every month, and so we support both New World Publishing, AND Renderosity ;p Speaking of support... despite the personal prejudice toward me of many people who shall not be named, and their obnoxious and rude treatment bordering on a type of cyber-stalking level of abuse toward me, I STILL come here and buy things from this Marketplace so as to ensure that Renderosity survives, and that their artists flourish financially. I am not so prejudiced toward other sites that I would refuse to even just visit, refuse to buy, just because I find certain people to be unpleasant from my own personal perspective. I have some serious concerns though that anyone who is on any staff anywhere may wish to consider in their heart. If one is so prejudiced toward other sites, and so sensitized that one needs to twist every thing one hears about another site into something bad, or any post made by another site's staff into something bad, is one really suited to being a staff member on any site? Staff need to grow a much thicker skins or they lose their minds.

I Love it when everyone plays nice :)

Not a mum, but thanks for the compliment :]

As to the 3D World Magazine - No one has said anything negative about the 3D World Magazine - Everyone I know, including myself, LOVES the 3D World Magazine - So that is a non-issue :)

As to Renderosity allowing you to post freely - the above post only confirms that - As long as you post within Renderosity's TOS - you are welcome to post your views pro or con :)

Aside from all that...

We Wish everyone a great holiday!
The Renderosity Magazine Team looks forward to the new year!

We hope that you will find the new Magazine format filled with many magical moments and wonderful surpises!

Dee-Marie

"11. This will not be an ezine - but a new concept in Magazine publication! " Bull, nothing is new, it's all been done. I've seen this same concept several times before, and its always failed. Why do you think the eBook concept flopped? This is really no different. Personally, as with all other things that the PTB is doing lately, r'osity will shoot itself in the foot (presumably repeatedly), especially when they refuse to listen.

Come on guys. This is not productive. No one brought up Poser Pros except Dialyn and even as subtle as it was it was glaringly obvious. This whole tangent can be traced back to her post and it's incredibly unfair to discount the words of one who happens to own the other site. If people want to build walls that's their problem, don't make it the problem of those of us who don't. Mehndi's comments were on topic so lets get back to that.

If Renderosity chooses to not pay article or tutorial writers and the writers agree to that then it's their choices. If someone want's to be paid for their article, Renderosity's mag isn't the place as of yet. Who knows of the future. Perhaps it will get there someday for that to happen. (I wasn't aware of how the articles worked)

My opinion on the subject is that if you publish articles from people who are happy with the coverage or bragging rights, while it's all well and good, you may not (no absolutes) get the quality you'd get if you paid. And in a way I'm comparing the two magazines in question. On the other hand, most reading this magazine are hobbyist and their tutorials are excellent. There are many who just want to give back to the community, help support it, etc. It's how I feel.

We should see how the online version goes before really running it into the ground. They've obviously been doing it this way from the beginning and the subject has never come up before. I do see the point of others though on putting it online. In a way it does feel like a pay version of Renderosity. But again, we won't know till it happens.

...... Kendra

For those of you that dont know me yet, please let me introduce myself. I am the new Marketing and Promotions person here at Renderosity. I just came on board in October. So far it has been an exciting adventure and I look forward to the New Year and getting to know all of you better and working with everyone to help us all accelerate the evolution of art! That said, I appreciate all of the input, feedback, questions and concerns expressed with regards to our new Interactive Magazine. Dee-Marie has done a great job in communicating and answering most of the posts. I will do my best to provide some additional information as well. As you know, we are taking a new direction with the Magazine. This change that will offer the community a unique and valuable experience with more content and interaction made possible by bringing the magazine on-line. Closer to launch, the previews for the Renderosity Interactive Magazine will begin and all Renderosity members will get to see them. The copyright concerns expressed regarding reproduction of content will be covered by our submission and subscriber agreements that incorporate our copyright policy and US Copyright Law. We would like to thank the hundreds of subscribers that have sent emails in support and anticipation of the launch of the Interactive Magazine. We appreciate your enthusiasm and support for this exciting new venture. Best Wishes, LillianH Marketing & Promotions

Lillian Hawkins
Marketing Manager
By serving each other, we are free.

"As you know, we are taking a new direction with the Magazine. This change that will offer the community a unique and valuable experience with more content and interaction made possible by bringing the magazine on-line." Unique my everloving ass. why do you guys think that this is such a new idea? Companies with MUCH bigger revenue and customer bases has failed miserably when trying to do the same exact thing.

"All serious writers are aware that it is can be very hard to get your first article published. To add to that, many of the bigger magazine publications do not even look at work from writer's without some publication credits to their names." LOL! Sure... if I were to submit an article to Playboy or The New Yorker... BUT, as this is the Internet and not print, trust me... it is laughably easy to submit articles for inclusion into content-hungry website mags. Don't believe me? I'm not a serious writer by any stretch of the term, and yet I submitted and got published a whole host of tech editorials into Linux Today, and even a ZDNet-sponsored mag back in the mid '90s. Lookit - I'm not out to insult anyone here, and I haven't a clue as to what the magazine will be about. I will also go further out and admit that I liked the print version fairly well. However, it isn't as if R'osity has a Madison Ave. mailing address and a reserved slot at a major publishing plant, and let's face it: You need competent content as badly as competent writers could use the cash. :/ "Thus, it is common practise in the magazine industry, especially for small specialized publications [like the Renderosity Magazine] to offer space in their magazine to writers who have never been published before." Sure - but not the whole mag. Also, this (again) smacks of the 'job offers' in the Jobs/Resumes forum promising "exposure". I mean, c'mon... even as a rank amateur, if I were to submit something for consideration, I'd at least want a fee, and at the most charitable, you'd prolly get one-time run rights, and that's it. "I'm Published!" don't mean squat if it leads nowhere, and the maxim always holds that you get what you pay for, ne? If you're lucky, you may get a few folks to contribute some decent type (and you have been lucky in that aspect), but for how long? Unless they're completely naive, they'll wise up and move on to something more profitable. "You are comparing a huge corporate producted Magazine - to our little community magazine." I'm willing to wager that Renderosity grosses more in cash per annum than a lot of medium-circulation magazines do. Like it or not, Renderosity IS a corporation. You WILL advertise marketplace goods in it. The calculus is real simple here... you're a corporate entity. I understand and sympathize with the feeling you're trying to evoke here, but the cold, hard truth is that you cannot deny what Renderosity is. Now, I don't mind a bit that R'osity is a corporation (LLC, whatever), and that you're wanting to sell me things. OTOH, I find it an insult to the intelligence to see an attempt to spoon-feed the masses something that clearly is not. "What has always set Renderosity Magazine apart from other publications, is that we are here to promote Renderosity Members. The majority of our articles are written by artists - not professional writers. To add to that, I would venture, that the majority of artists who have submitted articles to the magazine have never even thought of doing so" Sure - it's a hobby. But how many will continue to write for you a year hence? It's not as if I'm demanding you shell out the crown jewels here... you could very easily front the writer $40 or so in store credit for each article, and perhaps a free year's subscription renewable for the duration of his/her work with you, and the writer would prolly enjoy the hell out of the exchange. At least that way the appreciation would flow in both directions, ne? /P

As both an artist and a writer, I know how hard it is to get published for the first time. Being featured in the Renderosity Magazine has helped to promote many artists and writers, by giving them the opportunity to become a published writer or artist. Which is a very prestigious honor to be published. With all respect, this is one of the things that is MOST frustrating about being in a creative field. There are so many people out here who want to find work, and who want to be published. However, for every creative person that is out there seeking recognition, there is another who wants content for free, with no compensation other than for the sake of being published or for the sake of recognition. It takes time to write a quality article or tutorial - and the going rate for articles in other magazines can be as much as a grand or more (yup, four figures!) In all fairness, you should offer some form of compensation. I agree with Penguinisto ... how about at least a free subscription ... or $100 worth of items from the store for free?

Yep Deecey, you are right on target in the going rate of pay. New World Publishing is TINY compared to Rosity as a corporation. But they paid me close to a $1000.00 for a 6 page tut. It took me two weeks out of my life, working non-stop till I almost dropped to write that tut to the quality level I wanted it to be, and so they compensated me for that time at the standard going rate, even though I had never once had a single word in print before, and am a rank amatuer as an artist and writer.

Yup, Mehndi ... I've been there too. 8-)

In a world filled with causes for worry and anxiety...
we need the peace of God standing guard over our hearts and minds.

Jerry McCant

strolls in with a jug of mead and some fresh grapes Don't mind me, just getting settled in the corner. I may add some commentary later...

"The copyright concerns expressed regarding reproduction of content will be covered by our submission and subscriber agreements that incorporate our copyright policy and US Copyright Law."

Considering that R'osity's stance on many Copyright issues in the past has been - to be kind - blatantly incorrect; I would very much like to see this "Submission and Subscriber Agreement".

This is also the first time I have ever seen a subscriber have to agree to anything other than paying the subscription fees on time for the length of the subscription.

Anyone else sense some foreboding breach of rights issues approaching?

I deleted my previous post so that I could better articulate what was trying to say... it's not good to read forums when extremely tired and working on top of it, but I'm going to try this again. As an artist's/writer's site I believe that Renderosity should be doing their part should be helping to set, or at least follow, industry standards. This site caters almost exclusively to creative people and by not compensating them for their work I feel you negate what you should be trying to nuture... that is professionalsm and higher standards with due compensation. Having done my stint in the publishing industry (and somewhat still doing it), the "exposure" line to most of us is simply that... a line. We've all heard it and sadly some of us have fallen into it, and by the end of the day most of us have heard it so many times we want to scream. Bottom line, if you feel it's worthy of printing in your magazine, then due compensation should be given, at least in the form of a MP gift certificate, though preferably cold hard cash. I'm not trying to disrespect anyone here's decisions, but honestly, by taking this money saving route you are sending a clear message to professionals and those looking to enter the industry that expertise and professionals are not worthy of compensation. To give willingly is fine, but don't sugar-coat it with implied rewards, tell it like it really is. "We are looking for free content for our magazine." Period. It is insulting to those of us that have been there to do otherwise.

What we do in life, echoes in eternity.

E-mail | Renderosity Homepage | Renderosity Store | RDNA Store

I'll try to post this again: 3D World is not a small magazine, it's owned by Future Publishing, who have a rather diverse stable of magazines: http://www.futurenet.com/futureonline/ http://www.3dworldmag.com/ Bar that, I'd also like to know the answers to the questions asked in this thread - ans why being published and getting paid are two mutually exclusive concepts. bookmark ~S

"The copyright concerns expressed regarding reproduction of content will be covered by our submission and subscriber agreements that incorporate our copyright policy and US Copyright Law." Hmmmm I would really like to see this agreement. On the rest of this: May I simply say that this post has changed quite a bit. Seems several Magazine head's in this thread has decided to interpret the TOS anyway they wish. This does not endear me to contribute to nor subscribe to something like this. In fact If I was thinking of contributing I would be less likely too now, simply for how the magazine head's are acting. Shrugs but no loss I assume.

By law, R'osity has to disclose all costs and conditions of the transaction before entering into one - or allow subscribers to back out after finding out without penalty. Therefore, I imagine this policy will be placed somewhere the Members can see it before they decide to subscribe; just in case they do not want to agree to the terms of the transaction.

I imagine they are going to alienate themselves from any number of subscribers and/or authors if they start putting ridiculous conditions on the subscription; that is, if the subscribers/authors choose to even read the agreement - which most do not.

How many times have we seen full article posts here from other web sites? And R'osity thinks that they will have better success at averting it? Fair Use is Fair Use, there is no way around it.

"No one has said anything negative about the 3D World Magazine." Yes, someone did. The post has been deleted. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I didn't say anything negative about 3D World Magazine. I said I'd never read it and wasn't likely to. I don't suppose anyone here has had a dream and then had someone smash all over the top of it. But for a long time, I've wanted to be a writer and see my name in print. It's an ego boost, I know, and totally selfish, but that's all I wanted. I know what I write isn't commercial quality. I just wanted to have a little chance. And Renderosity gave me that chance. And allowed me to include photos of my animals....silly thing, but two of my babies died this year and it was nice to have a memorial for them. My Sally was 14, my Lou was only 5, but I will remember them with a smile and a tear everytime I look at the magazine. That was worth more than any payment would have. I've never been in it for the money. I've got a job...it pays me well enough. All I wanted to was to be able to enjoy one small moment in time without someone running over my dream with a truck. Renderosity gave me the opportunity to work on a magazine that I thought I'd never have the ability to do. And the greatest compliment was to be invited to work on a new project that would be something the community could really be proud of. And Renderosity has allowed me to meet some truly fabulous, and generous spirited people with whom I am proud to have made acquaintance. It would be nice if people gave the project a chance and took the opportunity to participate in a meaningful way if they really have an interest in it. Because it might be something to be proud of if given a chance. My greatest thanks to the people who have written in to say that they are eager to see the new product. My greatest thanks to those who are willing to give it a chance. For everyone, my sincere wishes that whatever you give, you receive threefold back in return. Happy holidays and my greatest hope that the new year can bring some good news for a change.

"I don't suppose anyone here has had a dream and then had someone smash all over the top of it."

That, as sad as it may seem, is the definition of life - at least for the majority of the population. I do not know too many people myself who have had all of their dreams answered. Even when they are, it is not always in the manner you would like them to be. You should feel lucky that one of your dreams has been fulfilled; some people never get that far.

However, there are practical things to consider as well. There is no sense in trading reality for a pipe dream, either.

I do not think anyone is trying to quash the Magazine idea, just point out things that may not have been seen in the backrooms where it was discused.

All too often, a voice of dissent is seen as being destructive rather than constructive. As long as that perception pervades these forums, nothing of value will come out of these types of discussions. Someone has to ask the hard questions, and someone has to answer them. Would you rather that the questions were not asked until R'osity found themselves in an adverse situation where they were forced to answer them?

Constructive feedback comes in many forms, not just blindly kissing up to an idea and supporting it 110% without considering all of the possibilities. If used correctly, both positive and negative feedback can bring about the changes that are needed and result in a stronger Magazine.

But for a long time, I've wanted to be a writer and see my name in print. It's an ego boost Dialyn, I truly understand the feelings you express here, and I am not trying to minimize them. The first article that I wrote was a three-part article for a genealogical quarterly, and I was elated to see my name in print as well. But the thrill you get from being a paid published author is way beyond words. I sat numb the first time I saw my name on a book cover, and stared at it for three hours with chills running up and down my spine. All of a sudden I was a professional, and with that came the recognition that I worked so hard to achieve. That is what some of us are advocating for others ... that everyone's talent gets the recognition that is deserved. Aquisitions editors look for talent when they select authors for books or magazines. It is not so important whether or not you have been published before ... the talent will show through in a raw manuscript or in print. Some of the things they look for, or will "groom" into you if you are close ... (1) Write clearly and concisely; (2) Don't talk "down" to your audience - imagine them sitting with you and talk as if you are showing them one on one (3) Be thorough ... don't assume that your audience knows the program, and write as if they don't. If a step is omitted, some readers wlil find the tutorial difficult to follow; (4) Don't overuse screen shots ... provide them when they are important to illustrate what you are trying to teach. That kind of thoroughness takes time. Take a look at the computer books you have on your bookshelf ... and reflect that each page of that book was roughly one hour of time by the author. That includes planning the outline, taking all of the screenshots, writing the text, and going through a second time to change technical errors. That is why magazines pay what they do. There are tutorials on the site here ... they are free to others, so they are freely given. However, if someone has to pay to receive a tutorial or article, then it is only fair that those who worked to provide that article get some sort of compensation. It was not my intent to belittle the Renderosity magazine, and I hope it did not appear as such. I don't subscribe to it, but I do have to admit that if the inside of the magazine is as attractive as the outer covers, then it must have been fantastic. If the e-zine professes to be of equal or greater quality, then it would be nice to show appreciation to those who are providing the content that is making that magazine what it is.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You did after all let me know when you deleted my other 2 posts in this thread for no good reason that I could see. My 3rd post also disappeared though so you have to understand if I am somewhat leery. judith brought up good points. "This site caters almost exclusively to creative people and by not compensating them for their work I feel you negate what you should be trying to nuture... that is professionalsm and higher standards with due compensation." I also agree with Cyberstretch "I would very much like to see this "Submission and Subscriber Agreement". And Penguinisto "I don't mind a bit that R'osity is a corporation (LLC, whatever), and that you're wanting to sell me things. OTOH, I find it an insult to the intelligence to see an attempt to spoon-feed the masses something that clearly is not." Early on someone directly asked how much this will cost. What are the subscription prices? Are they the same or less than the print magazine? One would expect less. "Up to the moment Poduct Reviews" can be tricky. Sure you won't have a merchant reviewing their own products (one would hope) but will these product reviews be about Renderosity Exclusives? If so, there is some serious conflict. The magazine is tied into the Store here. "New fresh content on a regular basis" Again, how does this work? Is it updated weekly? Monthly? Daily? How do the subscription prices relate? Do you pay a monthly fee for something that's twice or 4 times a month? "an online magazine gives us the chance to have interactive tutorials,...to have graphics show in layers so you could actually see a graphic being created" This could have been done just as well with a print magazine, a CD and the web-site. The disappointment for some is losing the actual physical creation. The physical magazine also lent more credibility to being 'published'. I don't assume that all that glitters is gold. As for the preview. it seems odd that only a chosen few will be able to look at it. How will you decide who gets to preview? It has been pointed out that many places give a sample issue. Will there be a 'light' version available for preview for those that don't get chosen? "the free items ... exclusive to the magazine for 90 days... 90 days after publication, the article reverts back to the author and he is free to post or resell" So everything that you pay a subscription for, if you wait 90 days, you can get for free? "Other mags pay for articles. Well, some do, some don't...And they inundate you with advertisements. " So will the magazine area be free of Renderosity banner ads and such?

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

I agree with you Dialyn! I sincerely hope that you all reap what you sow 10-fold! Happy Holidays! beam I didn't say anything negative about 3D World Magazine. I said I'd never read it and wasn't likely to. Because of who they published- indicting what exactly, if not something negative? :) That magazine is really quite a good one, it's a pity to miss out on a good source of information. Akin to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Hopefully you'll be able to see the magazine for what it really is- a fount of knowledge. It is always good to keep learning. The mind really needs the exercise. I'm one of those strange folks that actually likes school. What have you learned today? :)

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

Dialyn, understandable but no one deliberately ran your dreams over with a truck that had your name on it. It's all fine to want something to work but we're also talking about something that involves money here. Not a simple website. Other perceptions will come up and questions will be asked and you cannot expect us to all have the same perceptions you have.
And then there's the fact that the discussion was going along fine until someone you didn't like put in their two cents and did not do any of the things you accused. This will sound harsh but please take it for the suggestion it is. If you're going to do this job you're going to have to develop thicker skin. You can't jump on people who think contrary to your or who hold a different opinion. I agree people should see what it is they're discussing but I too am waiting to see this "subscriber agreement" before making a decision. If I ever had anything in the magazine in the form it's being discussed now, what good is it to tell anyone else if I can't show them or am limited in what I can say outside of the pay section? That right there put's the idea of being "published" in a new light if the only people who can see it are subscribers only.
See how much there is to consider and think about? And expect more questions once we do know more.
All you can do is give the facts you know and don't take the magazine discussion personal. It's not. It's about the magazine.

...... Kendra

I want to thank everyone for sharing their concerns. We appreciate your feedback. It is always wise to look at a situation from all the different angles. Our community is strong because we are able to work together and share different perspectives. So, we thank you all. We appreciate your interest in wanting to know all the details. The agreements and the price will be made available at the appropriate time, closer to the release date. Happy Holidays to all! LillianH

Lillian Hawkins
Marketing Manager
By serving each other, we are free.

Hi Dialyn. I think you truly do owe me a personal apology for your attacks on me yesterday. To say today that you feel like a truck has been run all over your dreams, is something you probably owe me another apology for. Dialyn, I know this is probably hard for you to imagine, but Renderosity's success, and PoserPros success, are not two mutually exclusive concepts. At least not to Russell and I. And though it may also be hard for you to imagine, by dissing PoserPros and me, and any accomplishments I make for whatever reason you are doing so, you are running over MY dreams, and the dreams of thousands of other artists with the same sort of metaphorical truck you fantacise people are running over your dreams with. We too have dreams Dialyn. Dreams of a happy day in this community when artist, and even staff, are compensated for their hard work... or more accurately stated, compensated more on the order of what their hard work is worth. We have dreams of a day when this political war that goes on from Rosity towards us ceases to exist, and we can merely be a normal everyday member here, able to speak our minds, like everyone else. Can you help us to fullfill those dreams? I held out my hand to you in friendship, and a genuinely heart felt show of kindness, to try to give you something I thought you would find joy and happiness in for Christmas, since I feared you were implying you could not afford it at that moment. This was not grandstanding, or attempting to back you into some corner where you had to sign up on our site or else... it is just the only way I had to legally transfer the file to you... purchase it on my own account, and then have our gift certificate code send you the download link. Can you not even accept a gesture of peace and friendship? Is it that I am a "competitor"? Is it that you seem to feel that I am some sort of "enemy" of this site? Even enemies and competitors must be showed courtesy and honor, if one is to retain one's own honor. Long ago, I learned that a worthy competitor is also the most worthy ally. Perhaps someday Dialyn, if my OWN dreams come true, you and I will be friends, able to laugh about all these old bad times, and share good warm feelings of "comrades in arms", both with just and righteous causes, showing honor and respect to one another. That is my Holiday Dream for you and I Dialyn.

Forum: Community Center

Subject: New Changes Coming for the Magazine!