My brother play golf for fun. I do not call him a hobbyist. he golfs or is a golfer. Every once in awhile I see or hear things like, "easy enough for even just a hobbyist" " the hobbyist Poser users" "Poser hobbyists" And I am sorry but few few times does it ever not sound condescending. What the hell would a "Poser Professional" be? What the people doing those infomercials or those ab machine ads??? Sorry but those animations and images don't hold a candle to the community. I also am irritated by those who think that unless you do post work you are not an artist. Just garbage. heheh I would say, "well learn to render better." :) I think there are just "poser artists". We all know that Poser isn't a hobby. It is an obsession bordering on a way of life. lol "Hobbyist"... I'll have to call my brother a hobbyist golfer and see how he reacts. :) Just such a condescending term in my opinion. Not that we don't all have hobbies, but to use it as a title. ...

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

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hobbyist snicker I agree with you Anton, though I think mostly it's because for a lot of people this is just a hobby. A way of passing a few hours after work or just mucking about. So, in order to discern the difference between someone who takes this seriously and someone who just mucks about with it the term hobbyist took off. I don't see it as condescending really but it does get a tad annoying when it's used for every excuse under the sun, or as an accusation. I do however disagree with the "obsession", it's not. No, stop looking at me like that, it isn't. It's a virus. @:)

Hey Anton, Well, I am definately just a Poser "hobbiest." It is only my vocation (well, it could be ifn I wanted it to), avocation (whatever that is), fun time filler (YEAH!!!), and the only time I ever leave it alone is to ... ......................... get some sleep. (or to take care of "nature's" call) (but I'll fix that one when I get my laptop, heh, heh) I just wanted to hear Anton scream. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

It makes me laugh that many corporate software corps are targeting the same fictionous legions of professional animators they think are sitting out there to buy their product. Most won't admit getting the bulk of their revenues from students and the "home" market. Reminds me when I was in London. It was fashion week and we were at a party. One young french designer was trashing Walmart clothing. One US designer said to him "Oh Really? Walmart outgrossed Chanel, Givenchy, and almost the rest of us last year". hehe Geep.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

Not to mention the "Blue Light Specials." ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

They're the highest grossing corporation in the world. But that doesn't mean they have "style". ;~) Oh, and agree with ya about "hobbyist". There's plenty of traditional (paint, sculpture, etc...) artists who never sell or exhibit their work, but they're still artists. (well, maybe the ones using "Paint-by-Numbers" are hobbyists) LOL!

NaySayGuy does "Pose-by-numbers."

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

A Professional user is one making money with renders. If you are not making money, you are not a professional.

And "Poser hobbyist" sounds a lot better than "Poser amateur".

Amateur, what R U?

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

I'm a Poser poseur, is that better? ;-)

so far, i think the word "hobbyist" means some things to which i totally agree.. I am one, so i can tell what it is. For me an hobbyist is someone who do not work (or have skills at work/professionnal level) in infography/3d jobs. as such there are some skills and theories or practice he does lck. an hobbyist is also someone who can only "work" on poser (or anything else) at his spare time, with limited ressource (money/time) so he is not willign always to spend same efforts and ressources as people who in fact have a paid job/activity related to 3d art... that's how i see it msyelf, and that's why i still define myself as an hobbyist. I use poser for personnal fun and educationnal purpose only, have a job non related to poser or infography, and cannot afford to spend too much time or money into poser, and i lack many skills of the whole process of turning a bunch of polygon and raw render into a marvellous picture as those i see here, but i learn at my pace...

I would have to agree that an artist is an artist regardless of weather or not they make money at it. Many famous artists were not recognized as such in their own lifetimes. Then again I think the term artist requires a certain quality of work / orignality. Although some of the stuff that passes for fine art these days, well things like rotting cow parts in vats of formaldahyde, canvases that have been rolled on by a model covered in paint, a statue of the virgin Mary in excrement in a toilet, you get the idea. These are the same people that look down at us as hobbyists.

Geep, I R A robot.

The Irish have robots???

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Hey Cres, Is it "Poser" ifn yer usin' P4 ... ... and "Poseur" if ya gots p5? Der Geepster wants ta know. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Nah Geep! Poseur is just a French person that uses Poser. ;D

If you can make a living, put a roof over your head, and pay the bills making graphics, you're a professional (heck, technically if you're making any money, you're a 'professional'..;) if that's true, I've been a professional musician..;) I'm doing it for fun, not money..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Poser can be used to make comics, book-covers, cd-covers, t-shirt designs, web-graphics, and pre-designs for wall murals, paintings, sculpture, set design, storyboarding, etc. There are countless ways to apply this amazing tool to create profitable images. That's not even considering the possibilities for animations. It's fun to play with, and even more fun to know it's helping to earn some money.

It's a full-blown addiction in my house. Hobby? HOBBY? A hobby you can walk away from. No, i'm a mainliner...

Mais non, Sirkrite, a Poseur is a pervert who insists in using Poser 5 in spite of everything... A French using Poser is simply a Poserist! Voyons, mes enfants!... :)

"That's another fine mess you got me in to!" -- Oliver Hardy

BillyGoat said: It's a full-blown addiction in my house. Hobby? HOBBY? A hobby you can walk away from. No, i'm a mainliner... I'm going on IV drips now.... Brynna

Brynna

"Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is almost always that somebody screwed up." - House

   

Dell Desktop XPS 8940 i9,  two 14 tb External drives, 64 GB DDR4 RAM, NVidia RTX 3060 12 GB DDR5.

Monitor - My 50 inch Hitachi TV. Works great!

Daz Studio - whatever the latest version is. Haven't decided if I'm upgrading to Poser 13 or not.

Photoshop.

I'm creating a Steampunk Tarot Deck. There's an older version in my Gallery, then a newer version.

I do Poser for fun.

No doubt, 3,000 years from today -- archaeologists of the future will dig up my Poser/Vue renders, and they will marvel at their beauty.

"What could this mean?" they will ask themselves, in wonder. "All of these depictions of temples, with naked warrior-women in them? The inhabitants of ancient North America appeared to have had a cult of something named "Vicky". A female warrior with a sword! Look at the amazing realism of their primitive art!!!!"

My ancient images will hang in museums.

All who behold my ART will say: "What a serious ARTIST he must have been!!!"

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

At a recent "Christmas Crafts Faire" I sold several cards (with envelopes) of my very first Poser image. I made about $20.00 on that image. Does this make me a Pro? Was I a hobbyist before? Really, words like Hobbyist and Pro have no meaning. Just do what you like as well as you can, and forget the labels.

Poser is still not accepted as a software that can create professional work, so if you use poser you are a Poser hobbyists in the very professional world of stupid people that said something as this and self can't do the half what we can do with poser. When I posted a time ago my image on CG talk and said nothing about poser, everyone was so excited, but not longer after I told them my secret I was shut down and they called Poser hobbyist go to renderosity. I see many websites around and under the links I saw many time : Renderosity a 3D community but almost all content for Poser hobbyists.. this sucks sometimes.. we are the "OTHERS" LOL Cath

_________________________________________________________

"Surrender to what it is - Let go of what was - Have faith in what will be "

Cath, considering the renders you do with Poser 5 I would be honored to be one of the "OTHERS" with you. :)

I've wondered if Poser is suppose to be such a 'hobbyists' tool, why all the clamoring for plugins to bring Poser files into higher end programs? That one has always puzzled me. I agree about the postwork too. If I can achive what I'm going for in Poser, why do I HAVE to use something else? Not that I have a problem with anyone who wants to do postwork, just seems it should be an option not a requirement.:) Thanks Anton, you just made my day!

Hey, I am most certainly a hobbyist! I can stop anytime I want to (unlike addicts)... I just don't feel like stopping today or tomorrow or... or... Erm... I should also mention my dog replaced me as alpha dog and my neighbors haven't seen me in years... but I can stop any time, yessirree!

L'ultima fòrza è nella morte.

This is such a ridiculous argument. Why would you care about someone else's opinion about your work? Does it change your opinion about yourself? Why would you even question it? If you are creating images - and I don't care if you're using Microsoft Paint - that change the way people (including yourself) view life around them and maybe think a bit differently about this world (including your own) - you are an artist. All the threads about this subject will never change it.

The Ark was built by a hobbyist , the Titanic by pro's. A lot of art in the "pro" art is getting people to pay for it.

Don't anybody here dare feel embarrassed about being a Poser artist!

Years ago I toyed with Poser 2 a bit, and decided it was a toy. Since then I've written a few plugins for 3DSMax and Maya, so I know generally what's been going on with those. When I tried out Poser 5 a few months ago, I was blown away by the fact that "hobbyists" could produce photo-realistic human images equal to the best work done by "pro's" who were using much higher end tools. And a whole lot faster...and cheaper!

Surf some of these "high-end" galleries...you won't have to look long to find figure images that even the Poser newbys here (like me) would be embarrassed to post.

I do have to remember not to announce to my work colleagues that I'm "going home to pose". Oh yes, it started as a hobby alright - but now it is my life! Sigh. Other people drink or smoke or take drugs - me, I pose!

Poser forever man! luv/hate doing post work! luv it cause of what the final pic will look like, and hate it cause of the work i know ill do! but Poser till um 65 man!!

Pfft...call me a "hobbit" if they must...I still get a d*mn good paycheck out of it...AND I get to thoroughly ENJOY what I do! I AM a PAID professional graphic artist/art director...aka magazines, websites, etc done in Quark, Photoshop, Etc...and get paid more than most people who work in big corporations do while I sit home and run my freelance business. When I take a break, I can "pose" all I want since I'm the boss! When a customer asks me for some "original" art I can also do some Poser as well and get paid. Best thing is...I can write off my "hobby"...how many people can get paid to play? Me and my furry toes are happy to keep on getting checks for what people want to call a hobby...or I can not get paid...I'd still do it!

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The reality is that, by and large. there IS a difference between the skill level and needs of hobbyists and people who do something day in and day out, for a living. It's not a perfect division... being a "pro" generally only means you are making a living and you can sure make a living and still not be doing a good job at anything - bit in the overall the level of work is better from a pro. This is obvious, and should not be an insult. Poser is a great tool for the hobbyist market. It can turn out pro level work under the right circumstances but it is hardly a professional level tool when you take all things into account and look at industry tasks as a whole. This is not unique to software. While the line is similarly fuzzy in tools for say, metal work, you CAN usually see a difference between the type of tools needed by the weekend fixer upper and a pro metal worker who needs to cut and shape day in and day out for 5 days a week. I am a decent photographer. I shoot for a hobby. I am by no means as good as those I know who shoot professionally. This isn't even really about talent - it is a about practice, experience, equiptment and time. They have more and better of almost all of it. Your brother may be a good golfer but is he honestly as good as the high end pro's in the biz? If he is then he should go make the big $$$, if he isn't then I don't see why he should be insulted by being referred to as what he is - a hobbyist.

Photographer is a title that denotes experience. So are you a decent "photographer" or a decent "camera hobbyist"? hehe I don't think the term "Hobbyist" in it's true context is bad. Too often I see it used as a codescending. Making money from an ability is not a sign of skill or quality. Nor is choosing not to. :)

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

Actually, I'd hate to see the term 'hobbyist' vanish, because it seems that companies who say their software is for 'professionals' charge the kind of prices that you'd need a lottery win to afford!

We're all posers together. Period. And the 'artist' lobby here who snort at the others.... geez, who cares? lol Arrogance is a tool of the ignorant :] Fish

PheonixRising, thank you for your words, you are right and I totally agree. Sharen

Totally agree with you Anton!! I coudn't explain it better than you do:) on this note, I am going back to my hobby....(That doesn't mean poser stuff!) LOL After all, it's Christmas time, a little break never hurt! ;) LOL Have fun everyone! Hugz Anton!

The trouble is that words like "hobbyist" acquire negative connotations which makes them sound mildly insulting even when, in fact, they are true in a literal sense.

"making money from an ability is not a sign of skill or quality." In some markets, no. In others it absolutely is. For instance the animators that make the most money doing FX work for films are absolutely among the best around. Anyway, I understand the point at the bottom of this - the term hobbyist is often used to put down someone who does something we don't like. Hell, we see it in the Poser community when folks start getting all bent about Vicki in temple renders. We spend at least as much time segregating ourselves as the outsiders do. For me? Poser is a tool. it is one with sever limitations (this applies to D|S as well) and it will always have those limitations. For now the advantages far outweigh those limitations - it will not always be that way and thats just fine. My only point is that in general it is not at all insulting to realize that Poser, for all its coolness, is not a tool for "heavy lifintg" general purpose 3D - what is usually meant as "professional" work. PS - there are unfortunately multiple definitions for "photographer". sigh I meant.... Photog"rapher, n. One who practices, or is skilled in, photography. So one could be a hobbyist or professional photographer :) Sometimes language sucks :)

• overall level of work is better from a pro- I dont know about that, I see some pretty cheesy Poser animations on TV. Im sure most hobbists here could do better

"And the 'artist' lobby here who snort at the others.... geez, who cares? lol Arrogance is a tool of the ignorant" You won't get that from me, not ever. I've been a graphics professional for donkey's years, using whatever tools I needed at the time. Poser is something I kinda stumbled across early last year when I was making my first forays into 3D. I don't rate myself as the greatest draughtsman/technician/whatever, just because of my "professional" status. I'm yer average Paint and Pixel Monkey. Some of my finished work is art, IMO, a great deal of it is not. So what? My point is, I am genuinely enthusiastic about anyone who takes up a creative outlet, whether it's music (I taught guitar for years), painting, writing or whatever. I would much rather people be bashing out 3 chord punk songs or rendering NVITWAS than stealing cars or doing drugs. IMO, art - any art - should be accessible to anyone. Given the right kind of encouragement, I am certain a great many people would find a good deal more satisfaction from a creative outlet, rather than destructive (or self-destructive) methods. Hobbyist? Yep, I sure am. Professional? Yep, on a good day. :)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Very well said, Sam. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

"It makes me laugh that many corporate software corps are targeting the same fictionous legions of professional animators they think are sitting out there to buy their product. Most won't admit getting the bulk of their revenues from students and the "home" market." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Pardon me and no offense but Upon what exactly are you basing this statement???? There is NOTHING "fictitious" about the professional companies that purchase licenses and support packages for programs like side effects "Houdini Avid "Softimage XSI" or Alias Wavefronts "MAYA Unlimited" and at an averge price of 12-$15000 per seat ,depending on the support package, I am curious to know HOW you have determined that the "bulk" of these companies revenues are coming from students and home users. :-) These programs are designed for use in large team pipelines with very high speced hardware connected with elaborate networked render nodes and custom proprietary scripting such as MAYA's MEL scripting to unluck thier true funtionality. Now if you are talking about MID level apps like Lightwave3D and Cinema4DXL then you may have a point that some of thier revenus come from very small Shops,and One man freelance operations doing modelmaking and simple animations etc. but then again lightwave is used in many TV and movie productions such as Startrek "enterprise" "Jimmy neutron" SCi fi Channlels "Dune" and "childern of Dune" just to name a few. NONE of these types of pro broadcast quality work is being done by "Hobbyists".

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lol. Yes Wolf, I should have said Mid. I think you misread my point. I have a couple friends in the biz working for a couple. Also have an old friend who orders the software for a media college who has had some interesting conversations about this with those who sell the tittles they buy. What I said was fictional is the concept that professional animators alone are so vast in number that they are the majority upon which the company survives. The point was there really is no "professional Poser" market. So for Poser companies and users to use the term, "Poser Hobbyist" seems absurd since really what other type of user is there. To me it is codescending to refer to your main target audience as hobbyist, make other refference to professional users, when they do not exist.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

well professionnal does not always mean better skills.. remember the latest iron maiden record's cover :) well it is a blatant counter example of such a rule :)

If you have an obsession is more than a hobby. You maybe are a poser nerd or a poser geek.

TG

Somebody call? Oh, nevermind ... I thought you said Poser geep. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

I prefer being called a "dilettante" instead of a hobbyist. Means basically the same but sounds way classier. :) KateTheDabbler

"dilettante" ??? Isn't that what happens to the pupil in the eye when ... Oh, ............... nevermind. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

"well professionnal does not always mean better skills.. remember the latest iron maiden record's cover :) well it is a blatant counter example of such a rule :)" Not quite. The artist threw a rough together to show the band. They decided to use that version, rather than the artist's finished one. I believe he has since disowned the imgage.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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"What I said was fictional is the concept that professional animators alone are so vast in number that they are the majority upon which the company survives." I dont know of any prolevel 3D application companies that claim to recieve thier revenues soley from professional animators even at the mid level. All of them promote thier apps as overall 3D/CG modeling /rendering/animation applications making their target audience people who merely create static 3D models,people who create Cg effects such as volcanic explosions space battles etc. ,and for those so inclined, people who want to model to rig and animate characters both humanoid and non humanoid. And I agree that in the context of the modern 3D/CG industry poser is not a "professional" app and largely a tool for "Hobbyists"

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Don't make me whip out the dead horse people.

::pets dead horse:: Bingo Sam..

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::pets dead horse:: Bingo Sam..

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It's true that both hobbyist and professional can be "artists". It's true that "hobbyist" and "professional" are not mutually exclusive... I'm both. It's true that there is not a definitive and mandated difference in skill level... Very often and in many fields of human endeavor, it's the "hobbyist," who does what s/he does out of love, who is more capable or knowledgeable than the "professional" who does it because s/he has to. It's also, unfortunately, true that any word, accurate and wholly apt or not, can be used to hurt, or used in an intentionally hurtful way. I'd suggest it's very often done in defense of one's ego... Just as you can rarely find anyone more vociferous in, say, the Mac/PC debate than someone who's just spent a few thousand dollars on one or the other... Once a boy's spent a few thousand dollars an a single piece of software, it wouldn't surprise me if he named everyone who used anything else - particularly someone who got better results from a few hundred dollars worth of software and add ons - a hack. When they see work like Cath's (and so many others here) their little ego's have just got to be trembling... :-) I dunno... I sure like "poser dilettante" a lot. Wait... How about "Dilettante Poseur"?? That sounds awfully impressive, despite proper dictionery definitions :-) I just wanna someday be one of the Others with Cath, et al... I guess that means I better shut up and get back to practising my hobbyism, huh?

sam therapy: i did not know that.. i left the thread long ago... well then if they choosed the raw un finished version as a final one, i can understand the artist disowned the piece of junk.. I wouldn't have my name associated to it whenever i could produce much better things, it would be dangerous for my public face as a pro :) (means the one that get a leaving out of his skills/ability :)

ouuups, forgot: i would like to see the final intended picture ! to compare it with the raw render we were shown (and that sadefully will waste my audio shelves !)

In my version of Webster, here's the definition of "hobby", under which falls "hobbyist": "A subject or activity pursued for pleasure rather than for payment." At the moment, I fall under that category. It is true that "hobbyist" can be used perjuratively. It is always amazing how some people can get overly hung up on how art is created rather than what the final result is. Poser is a tool. 3dsMax is a tool. Maya is a tool. A pencil is a tool. A good artist can, with practice training, excel at any of these tools. A bad artist, with no real vision or understanding of composition, will still produce crap. The bad artist may create glossily rendered crap with a high end graphics program, but it's still junk.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

So true, gagnonrich. But you can be technically perfect and still not be an artist. An artist, to me, has a spark of originality, imagination, creativity that the technicians may or may not have. Are the graphics in the galleries here art? How many are truly original? How many are copies of someone else's originality? A hobbyist can be an artist. And a professional can be a technician without being an artist....people pay for a lack of originality all the time. It's hard to define art but when you see something that is truly art, you can't forget it. How much of the galleries is unforgetable? Each of us probably have different definitions of what is art to us and what is not. Art is personal. For me, it should also be original...not just an imitation of what someone else has done but something extra, something unique to the person who created it, something that makes me look more than once. I don't do art. I practice techniques. I'll know it when I do something that is artistic, if ever I do. But I'm not ashambed to be a hobbyist till then. But that's just me.