Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=2104&Form.ShowMessage=1586000

Please see the thread here. This was not posted to start any flaming or wars or hostility, but to give an insight perhaps why the rest of the 3D community has the view of Poser and its users.

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Hey - that was nothing - try going ot CGtalk or, I'm sure, some of the other high-end sites mentioned in that thread if you want to see some real Poser bashing. Personally, I think a lot of people using CG are going for roughly the same fantasy character look, so whether they've modelled their models themselves or used a Daz model an awful lot of the characters and scenes end up looking the same. It's no different than someone who's trying to paint something in the style of Rembrandt/dutch artists or whatever. It's very difficult and time-consuming to model a human figure as was mentioned in that thread, and most people do not have the time to do it, unless they're being paid for it. And often even if they're being paid for it, whoever's paying probably won't mind if they use a Daz or Zygote model because the cost for the total job will be much less.

Eh ......... who cares! Not moi! ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Basically, it's sculpturers saying painters aren't real artists... and painters saying sketchers aren't real artists... and both saying photographers aren't real artists.... Sigh

yeah, that's about what it boils down to.

And I know photographers who find that using Photoshop or any other digital application is not real photography... It's not only a question of making a digital statue from polygons, but also placing bones to make it moveable, and making the correct mesh to make these movements possible. And those who can do it "better" than DAZ don't waste their time on writing negative stuff on Poser/DazStudio.

I have tried prudent planning long enough. From now I'll be mad. (Rumi)

I have to agree, Aeneas, on the point of "make-it-yourself" figures. There is much, much more involved than just modeling the geometry (an art in itself); textures and rigs are even more complicated. The people working on "Final Fantasy" level figures make "figures" (as in $100's of thousands a year!!!). They have every tool (no matter the cost) at their disposal and I'll bet that more than one person works on each figure (one to model, one to texture, one to rig, etc.). When I'm making $100K/year to do this, I'll create my figures from scratch with the best software possible. Until then...

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I wonder if I post something showing my figures over at cgtalk, what would be the reaction then... I mean I use poser, AND I make my own figures... You think they'll find a way to trash my work down as well??? That could be very interesting to know...LOL here is a peek at Elle version 2.0...No UVS so far...and lots of work to RIG left

By the way I WISH I was making $100K/year to do this,ahah If it happens, i'll let you know LOL

OHH.... has it been a month already???? my how time flies.......YAWWN!!!!!!

My website

YouTube Channel

Wolf359, I think an equestrian is the horse's rider. Equine is the horse.

your right :-)

My website

YouTube Channel

hey..at least we're beating something new..the horse was pretty hamburgerized already..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Otherwise known as revenge of the bovine.

Nah, this is the same old tripe. In 3D CG, it's not "aaaaaaaaaaart" unless you invented, designed, and built the computer and software yourself. My take is this: When I have work to be done in a timeframe and since my budget doesn't include the expenditures going to Iraq (or to my local plumber, for that matter), I use whatever tools are at my disposal and the skills that I have attained. I agree: this horse has been atomized by the frequent beating on the same topic. If the other 3D app users feel so insecure about their skills that they cannot see a tool for its worth, then let them remain ignorant imbeciles... Now, for real discussion, see my question in the C4D forum concerning animating gradient shader material colors. ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I'd love to see her completed.

The major difference between Poser and other applications is not the software itself (they all use L.N to calculate lambert shading) but the user base's attitude: If you post a stunning image in a cgtalk forum, people will ask "Awesome! How did you make that hair?" where in the Poser forums people will ask "Awesome! Where did you buy that hair?".

On the other hand I don't see anything wrong with honoring someone else's abilities and creativities by acknowledging their effort. If someone is a merchant, and they hope to make an extra dime or two from something they have made, what's so terrible about supporting their effort? I don't have the time or (mainly) the interest in doing everything from scratch. I don't bake pies from scratch. I didn't build my house from scratch. I didn't buy parts to build my car from scratch. I didn't build make my computer from scratch. So what's the big deal if I buy hair from someone? Heck, I don't cut my own hair much less Vicky's! Sorry, horsie. I didn't mean to hurt you even more.

Certainly if the end result image is good one shouldn't care what tools were used to create the image. However I do have to agree that a lot of the characters/textures in Poser images tend to look rather similar. A lot of morph dials go unused. :) Also have to admit that there are certain themes that repeat in Poser galleries. Even Poser users complain about the 'naked vicki in a temple with a sword' type images that can be rather prevalent. Basically you just have to judge each image on its own merit.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

only hobby 3d purists make all their own stuff for everything. Professionals that do this for a living in the motion picture and gaming realms are highly specialised to various aspects of the job and work in teams.

hehehe if they are getting a 100k a year to make characters- I'll hereby place a bid for 50k. lol and if they are as good as they think they are (which they are NOT) they could be making Vickey4 and making 5 million! ignore them- loud mouths all

garrr! ok for the "movie" type graphics using 3d OMG yes they DO have TEAMS of people working on figures! now if we {as in people in renderosity} made a team and worked on ONE figure ...I bet you, we{as in renderosity} would traunce those blow hards! I remembers reading that one movie has just two people working on REFLECTION ALONE. ON ONE FIGURE!AND IT STILL TOOK SOMETHING LIKE TWO YEARS. I mean look at things like monsters inc....they had teams of people working ONLY ON THE HAIR! art should not be judged on the tool used to make it. period and if they can not see that then they have their noses so high up in the air they are going to bleed to depth from nose bleeds. sorry but going through the galleries ....poser art..when handled correctly {and my god it is an ongoing learning experience if there ever was one} can not only match but surpass most other 3d work. but say it is poser and OMG not THAT proggy...~rolls her eyes~ I mean look at this normally in our market ..there are what...a few packages with more then one peson that worked on it...but do we see packages with literally TEAMS of people working on ONE set of textures or such? no. so in comparison ...looking at the work of individual artists in here....IT IS FLIPPING GREAT AND IF THEY OVER IN THE HIGH AND MIGHTY 3D WORLD OF HIGH SOCIETY[note please that was sarcasm}DONT LIKE IT,.. THEN THEY CAN GO KISS 3D RUMP!

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

The main difference is that most people that use other software use the software to produce the desired results. The vast majority of Poser users use the software to assemble bought textures, props etc. As an example Poser users buy poses when the software they are using is designed to do just that. Poser has become, for a lot of people, just a grown up software version of Barbie rather than being used to it's full capabilities. Nobody is asking Poser users to build their own figures because Poser is not designed to do that but you can make quite complex props, pose your figures, do your own lighting and certainly develop your own characters. Most Poser users use a image app for postwork so again make your own textures.

~lays her head on her desk~ god the typos are rampant in that arent they? depth...should be death..... remembers...should be remember......god I give up ~goes back to her coffee~

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

"The vast majority of Poser users use the software to assemble bought textures, props etc." So do motion picture studios. Except they hire the artists in house. Next.

and is that in some way meant to be relevant?

yes. It just sailed over your head is all. The end result should be what's important. Nobody in their right mind thinks one person created Final Fantasy or Shrek, or even a simple 3d video game. In the end, composition of the piece should be most important, not whether you modelled it all yourself. Its like saying a painter isn't a real artist because he didn't grind his pigments.

The high-end crowd often do that 'make the model yourself' thing lol. It's the equivalent of saying "Ashkenazy? He's not a real musician! Jeez, he doesn't even make his own pianos!!! Hell, he didn't even write the music himself!" So, let's not care about their high-end snooty nonsense. Making musical instruments is also an art - just a different one :o) :] Fish

EXACTLY ~thinks poor poor horse~ not ONE of these highsocieties I bet made and programed their own computer as in...made the metal housing..the wires..circutes...programed it from scratch {bet they are using windows or linux so oops they are out of the originality I built it myself deal} so in actuallity no matter how many pats on the back they wish to give themselves..they are JUST LIKE US {dunn dunnn DUNNNNNNN} they use.. a program they use something someone else made! they use materials that they didnt by hand originally creat! no not all poser artists use prebought stuff..yes some poses are easier with a click but not all poser artists do that. same with lights. these artists just dont like the idea of being told GUESS WHAT YOU ARE USING A PROGRAM YOU DIDNT CREAT TO MAKE 'ART' YOU ARE INFACT LIKE A POSER ARTIST JUST THE NAME OF YOUR PROGGY IS DIFFERENT. >.< grrrr hate this topic and it comes up so often and NO ONE UNDERSTANDS WE ARE ALL DIGITAL ARTISTS. if you use painter, ps, psp, gimp what ever.....you are still an artist...you use poser, maya, 3dmax..they all offer something different but ARE STILL TOOLS TO BE USED TO CREAT ART.....

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

I think Stewer hit the nail on the head in post 17... and my take on it is that users of modelling apps are concerned with Modeling, want recognition for Modeling and judge their own progress and skills against other Modelers. I experienced something of this a while back when I spent a whole lot of time working on modeling a human character (a learning process for me). I scoured the various forums, looking to see how others were doing it, how they laid out their mesh topology and any tips and tricks on all aspects of creating human models. In the process, you run across various renders.. and some make you go "Ooooh! Wow!" and you strive to improve your skills and techniques to achieve similar results. You admire that modeler's skills. If you then find/figure out that it's just V3 with some morphs, you might still admire their 'modeling skills' if they created the morphs, but the initial thrill of discovery is gone. I think some people just don't handle the above scenerio well and end up with an anti-poser (anti-purchased models) attitude. It's really all a matter of perspective. I think the arguement rarely boils down to whether Poser users can create good art or even whether that's a valid means of creating art - it has more to do with whether they have any modeling skills and the expectations of the critic. It all boild down to an apples and oranges 'judgement criteria'.

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

is to take what is in the imagination and make it have substance...to allow one to generate a picture that would otherwise remain hidden in ones mind...allows one to share what they think might be something worth looking at...to share beauty or ugliness...happiness or sadness...to capture a moment in time and present it as you see it...no matter what the format...photography...paint on canvas...digital...pencil to paper...chalk or charcoal...it is to present what is in your own imagination...the program or whatever method used allows one to speak...to have a voice...with your own voice...your own mind...your own thoughts and dreams...and that is not something anyone can take away...no matter their comments positive or negative...it is still yours...because it came from your mind and your soul...it is irrelevant as to how that picture or statue or photo came to be...fact is it is there to be enjoyed or hated whatever the case may be...IMVHO quietly creeps back to her lurking position JP

ok sorry but I got to ask this... I can not model in 3d worth poop{probably due to not puting the time to learn it ..it IS a massive undertaking} BUT does that mean I am less of an artist? also I sculpt wood, stone, etc ...does that make me MORE of an artist because I get splinters and have to wear safety goggles? I can carve a lump of rose quartz into a rose bud....but cant make a blessed thing with a "mesh" so who would be the real sculpter? the answer BOTH. it is just...IT IS A TOOL. some are wonderful at it..some arent... some can model amazing just jaw droping things..... some can paint amazing things... some can light it so that they can make the most poopy texture look like life itself... the thing is ....we are all artist. we all have our talents. why then do some feel the need to go "nu huh WE are better then youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" {please note caps are not yelling they are emphasis.}

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

"yes. It just sailed over your head is all. The end result should be what's important. Nobody in their right mind thinks one person created Final Fantasy or Shrek, or even a simple 3d video game. In the end, composition of the piece should be most important, not whether you modelled it all yourself. Its like saying a painter isn't a real artist because he didn't grind his pigments." No it's not like any of the above. To use your analogy the poser software is like the the paintbrush and the pigments. No one is suggesting you make these. But to continue your analogy using someone elses textures and poses etc is like buying the paint and paintbrushes and then paying someone to put the paint on the canvas for you. Or in the piano analogy again the Piano is like the Poser software but then you get someone to write all the musical passages for you and then you assemble them into a song. Poser is a tool like the Piano or the paint brush and paint. The artist uses these tools to create their own origional work. The work is not origional if you use other persons creative endevours. Not the tools the creative use of the tools.

What I got out of the exchange in the 3Ds forum was that all of the POSER stuff was there was a sameness. As a long time (not so really vocal) member of the community, this stuck a chord with me. I have seen the dead offspring of the dead horse beaten. This thread and that one message just seemed to resonate, that maybe a good chunk of the Poser stuff had a common thread in its content as Caly (Msg.#19 this thread). Perhaps a good majority of us have forest for trees syndrome? I wholeheartily agree that we should view each image on its on merits. I just thought that thread put a different spin on the topic. Thanks folks for your time and opinions.

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

I often make my own meshes, textures and always make my own poses. Your point is? Here's Natalia wearing a wip photoreal texture and a face morph created in Zbrush. I do not MODEL HUMANS - for one thing it would take me a long time to do so, when I can take V3 or such similar model into Zbrush and simply morph it. I can paint very well... but its a lot of work to repaint the same character over and over and over again. Doing the painting one time on a preexisting mesh does something important... saving *TIME* And yes... just because the animator didn't make the textures, or the modeller didn't make the poses for that figure... doesn't make their contribution to the work less important. But I suspect Pierre is a 3d hobbyist like the rest of us (or just a garden variety troll) and never had to work on a team before. I work on teams when doing web design and magazines, and yes, everyone has a fripping job to do, a specific one. Nobody does it all by themselves. I hope you get it now.

when someone takes up modelling they tend to look at the underlying mesh in a scene. the more i learn about topology, and edge loops and stuff, the more that all the vicki's in the hot 20...lately all i've had time to browse...look exactly the same. afterall they are all the same underlying mesh and that clearly shows, no matter what texture they are painted into. that's just me. that's how i see things. yet, i thoroughly enjoy some of the real masters of postwork...those have the vicki mesh camoflaged enough to actually look like a painting. there is a huge thrill to making your own model. and, maybe some of you would think differently if you tried it yourselves and actually managed to succeed. folks seem to be having good luck modelling with the free wings. if you try and don't succeed, try with another modeller. honest, making something that is all yours, from scratch is the BEST...then envisioning textures, and, a locale for it. makes me feel like a goddess, it does. and, and, and...omg...i could never win a Poser forum challenge to save my life...shoot i have scarcely ever made the hot 20 in the years i've been here. well, winning challenges in the rhino and lightwave forums have been the high spots of my time here, at renderosity. i even have a coffee mug :*) so, please, don't denounce modelling as something you "can't" learn, or don't care to learn before giving it a chance...i don't even play with my poser anymore...haven't even installed any vicki's since my crash back in august.

I still don't agree with you pierrecolat. Have you never carefully looked around? Does every book, print, title use a unique font developed by the creator of the work? Almost none. Do you think that all musicians write and play their own music? You've got to be kidding (23 years guitar playing experience here). CLICHE_ALERT: Photographers use nothing original. The camera, lens, and film/storage are built, the lighting is usually provided (esp. natural), the scene already exists or IS ASSEMBLED FROM EXISTING ITEMS!!! Yet, photography is still art. The thing oft missed here is that this is not clay, stone, paint, or whatever. This is DIGITAL medium. With the advent of digital media came something completely new: reuseability of exact copies. No longer would one have to create each and every 3D sculpture, cast, etc. individually. You can now use as many as you like - and someone else can have an exact copy to use as they like. And, sheesh, I'd hate to have to model a Ford Mustang from scratch just because I needed it to zoom across my animation for 5 seconds - esp. since there are hundreds of them available for purchase and use. No, you still don't get it. BTW, not all 3D CG work is just for "aaaaaaaaaart". Most of it is for "buuuuuuuuusiness", where time is critical, expenses low, and impact must be high. If I had to be your type of creative, I'd need to change occupations.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

oh, and I forgot to mention.. the art director, who never paints anything, just tells you what to do. He's one of the guys that makes the big bucks at the magazines. Have you wondered why?

I never denounced modeling. I think it is awesome and creative and I thrill to what people with imagination can come up with. But, please, not all of us have that as an interest. It should bother no one that someone prefers to look instead of participate. I look at sculptures with the same admiration. Movies. Stars in the heavens. Blades of grass in the ground. I can make none of them, and still I appreciate what did create them. We all have our strenghts. I make a very good audience. And, if that makes me happy and I hurt no one by praising what someone else can do, then it really should be no one's concern. Should it?

exactly kuroyume... only a hobbyist with no deadline can do what Pierre does. People have been buying content for Maya and similar highend apps, long before Poser figures were worthwhile for anything more than a puppet to paint over in a graphics app. Poppi ... well, yes, that's why I use more than just Vicky in my collection of human figures. g Its easier to make figures look different when they actually are.

art isnt just for fun you know I make a living off of mine. so the buuuuuuuuusssssssssssiness is unnnnnnnnnderstood very much so. many of us here either through the mp or through self employment or what ever make a living from aaaaaaaart. do you think I sit and carve roses for poop and giggles? no they are orders and I do not mass produce. not because I dont like copies..but because generally I only take on a job that is oriented for a specific use or person. I am horrid at making copies even of my own stuff free handed as it were. also it is far easier for me as a person to sculpt in a rt medium as I can actually feel my work with my fingers. I generally close my eyes and get the feel of the form not depend on my eyes so much.{does that make sense to anyone? I know it sounds like fruite loops but really that is how it is.} I want to learn modeling in techno world so to speak..just the time ....I just do not have it right now. and BTW what is "my type of creative"? I do work for business. I do work for art. exactly what is so different? oh other then the medium used? yes it saves me time to purchase paint in a tube rather then mix my own pigments. yes it saves me time to buy a chunk of quartz or what ever stone as opposed to chisleing it out myself. so ...exactly other then names, and tools used is the difference?

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

bijouchat, yup the guy that tells you what is wrong with your pic..tells you what stroke to use..but couldnt do the stroke to save his life...he is the one in the corner office making the 6 digit income....

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

"It's the equivalent of saying "Ashkenazy? He's not a real musician! Jeez, he doesn't even make his own pianos!!! Hell, he didn't even write the music himself!"

Not really. The equivalent is looking at the remix artists out there and saying "wow, they do good work... but can they create their own music or do they always sample from others?"

I am a total practical person. I use whatever tool I can that will get me to my goal. My clients appreciate this and it is a good thing on my own projects as well. Using a tool means understanding what it IS and what it is not.

The thing is that a lot of Poser work looks GREAT and it's awesome... but it is only so within an extremely narrow range of conditions. As soon as a poser figure moves, for instance, it almost always shows the lack of real animation options in the Poser rig itself (the joints and so on). Most of the amazingly photo-real textures only really look that good under fairly specific lighting set ups and so on.

The higher end folks I interface with all look at the great photo real Poser renders and go "that looks great, but can it move? Does the muscles flex? How about the clothing? How about hair? What is the rig like?".

The reality is that the top level guys are not threatened or jealous because it isn't all that threatening. A standing still Poser model under perfect lighting can look photo real. This is not news, and it isn't unique to poser. Hell, some of them could put one of Cath's textures on a model they had built themselves in a day or two and have it look that good.

From the other side I see some of the snobbery as being a reaction to this idea - the idea that if you have Poser and $200 of stuff from Daz and a texture maker you have somehow duplicated the flexibility and potential of something like Max or Lightwave.  It shows a fairly deep lack of understanding when folks say "well, they are just jealous that we do it better than they do!".

Some of them are just jealous. Some of them are serious jerks who just hate anything that isn't their favorite rendering product. But some of them are not jealous or threatened... they acknowledge what the Poser community does well.. but they know very well what the Poser community hasn't and can't do (yet?).

That's true inside and out of the Poser community (look at all the Poser people who slam anything that is attractive or any "perfect" female as being too "easy"). Hell, INSIDE Poser's little world you have people who attack others who just "buy and render". People who make custom morphs attack those who don't sometimes. When this is happening WITHIN us, when we will attack our own members who don't do anything buy "buy and render" then why are we shocked when the outside does it? It is only a matter of degree.

Again, I am not defending the ignorance or prejudice of many of the losers who attack us - but there is no reason to delude ourselves either. They may be ignorant and elitist, we don't need to add our own prejudice to the problem :)

When I see a great assembled Poser scene I think to myself "wow! good work!" and I have some idea of how hard that would be to duplicate. When I see an awesome render by some of the best modeler/render artists I am totally floored ... and it is more work. It means a larger degree of skill in a larger number of areas... and I am more impressed.

That's just life.

i guess when i think something is alot of fun, i like to tell others about it. darkelegance, i enjoy sculpting, and painting in oils (although, my asthma and owning a bird have put a stint on that)i am SURE you would love modelling once you got the hang of it. in fact, i think anyone who enjoys knitting or crocheting would most likely love modelling, as well. b.t.w. we can always use more rose models.

na, its just because we pay 150 dollars for an entire application vs. a couple grand, and can produce good results with it. (that is entirely dependent on the artist) Whereas for Max and Maya content, you can blow 150 dollars plus on one model. Poser has its problems, significant ones even... but these threads never deal with Poser's real underlying problems. Its just a bunch of hobbyists that spent too much money for highend software complaining about a bunch more hobbyists that spent a lot less money for their low-end software, and expressing sour grapes that there might be more of them making pictures that impact on their abilities to get noticed in the gallery here. I use Carrara, Zbrush, Amapi and Poser, along with Painter and Photoshop to produce the digital pictures I do. For gemstone modelling I use Gemcad however. I also use a Minolta DiMage 7Hi camera. My SO is into photography, he can't paint or model a stick figure but his work has been published. That's not including my traditional media work, which is mostly done in watercolour, gouache, acrylic, pencil/graphite, ink or pastel. Much of the look of my 3d pictures have far more to do with my custom shaders combined with Carrara's rendering engine than anything else. I do a lot of work with lighting and composition that in the end is far more similar to the work of a photographer than anything else. On a side note, I also use Flash and Freehand to do vector graphics. But I guess none of that is art... I didn't model a huuuumaaaaan... wow, even though I've drawn them for years!

I just find it amazingly funny that a community such as the 3D community would really need to segregate itself but what program you can afford or have the time to learn. Sure if I had all day to sit around and about $3000 I would love to have a high end program, but I don't so well...I don't. I think programs such as Bryce and Poser are excellent tools that are totally unappreciated by the "more serious modellers". You can spend a lot of time in Poser and make unique looking characters, and I have seen some very beautiful pieces come out of Bryce. Just the two cents of a newbie

oh poppi I know what you mean about oils..they tried to convince me acrylics would give the same "feel" and it doesnt.~sighs~ nothing moves quite like oils. I have many ideas bouncing in my head for models just...I cant get it going...or perhaps 3d modeling is not something I can master. I get frustrated with trying to get what is in my head to the screen..what would be so easy for me rt..is just near impossible on here. but I dont go and say a modeler is not art..OMG it is one heck of an art!!! I stare like a kid making the comment "when I grow up...." ~sighs~ we all have a love in 3d..in digital..and I just dont get it why poser artists cant be accepted. post work....lighting....posing....even the idea....take work. my god even the naked vickies in temples are all different. yes there are themes that are very prevalent. no doubt about that. but not all of us do the same scene with a hand moved one way and the head moved this way and POOF a scene. but I do think we have all went through that at sometime or another. you can give the same texture and props to twently people and get twenty different pictures. ~sighs~ I need coffeee. lots of coffee. modelers have their own talent. no where am I saying it is easy. same with the texture artists. same with the ones that spend hours geting the hands in such wonderful poses in packages. some poses are better then others. just dont slam poser artists as being bad or with out talent or cookie cutter.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

yeah, acrylics also dry way too fast for me to have any feel for them. there is a tutorial called "like clay" that is great for getting a feel of how to have some fun with your model, and actually sculpt it like clay on your monitor. i will try and look up the link for it and pass it on over here in the morning.

hmmm..built my own computer...check..
make my own models...check
write my own software..er, no check there..;)
wonder if I should start putting on airs?..'tis to laugh..
but if a graphic artists' printer breaks down at work, who do they call?..check..;)
I wouldn't worry, if you can please yourself, the rest of the world's taken care of..no harsher critic than the one in the mirror..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

OHH poppi that would be great! Thank you!!~hugs~

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

I do what I like.

If the cgtalk folks want to nail us lesser 3D Poser types for what we do or don't do, so be it.

Yes, I am a 3D hobbyist. I don't have any high-end apps, although I could buy them, if I so desired.

I've never made a dime off of 3D graphics -- and this fact provides one with a certain level of freedom. I don't have anyone to please.....except myself.

Frequently, when something becomes a job, it ceases to be a hobby.

I prefer Poser as a hobby. I prefer the air clear.

And if I like what I've done: the opinion of someone else matters very little.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

rubbish NEFTIS: your post in #8....man she's hot!

It is since I started with organic modelling in Cinema4D that I really realised what a great job DAZ has accomplished. I mean: I can eventually create my own male and female mesh, and I can add bones etc. But this does not mean it would work for everyone. And since the days I saw that nurbs woman on Zygote's site a few years ago, and I see what can now be done with V and M3,and with SP, I say "hats off". You don't have to be Leonardo Da Vinci to be allowed to make a work of art.

I have tried prudent planning long enough. From now I'll be mad. (Rumi)

rubbish Uh....would you care to be a bit more specific?

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

This may be summarizing what others have already said, but what the hey... The problem with Poser's acceptance is that the bulk of the images generated using it do all start to look alike after a while. Hardly anyone wants to go "under the hood," so to speak and see what Poser can do when it's not confined to the standardized beauty of Vicky. Things like the Freak are all well and good, but even now, just a couple of months after that model's release, folks are already rushing back to the one-size-fits-all image of the pretty girl with perfect makeup and hardly any clothes on. And I no longer accept the "well, it's just a hobbyist's program anyway" excuse. Face it, folks -- this program is in a serious rut, and there aren't many people out there trying to get it moving in any other direction than the vacuous pin-up. Maybe if there was a little more variety to what was generated, perhaps the hard-core professionals would see the potential for it the same way we do. But as long as we feed the cliche, then I'm afraid we have no one but ourselves to blame for seeing Poser marginalized. So yeah, if you enjoy making the pin-up images, go for it. But don't get catty about places like CGTalk when all you're doing is giving them more of the stereotype. Personally, I love going to CGTalk -- most of the technical discussion is way beyond me, but the gallery critiques, as harsh as they may be, are among the best you're gonna get because these folks really focus in on the essence of 3d imagery and what makes it work. I've posted Bryce images over there, and no one's given me the "eww, Bryce..." reply, so it's not the pricetag on the software that turns them off. Instead, I've found that if you bring something new to the table, something intruiging, something that takes whatever program you're using and pushes it a little further down the track, they show their appreciation real fast. But to take a stock mesh and add a stock texture and put it in a stock pose and then add a little postwork... you ain't gonna win any friends there.

this program is in a serious rut, and there aren't many people out there trying to get it moving in any other direction than the vacuous pin-up So, your objection is to "vacuous pin-ups"? What, exactly, would you -- personally -- rather see?

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

So, your objection is to "vacuous pin-ups"? No, my objection is the OVERLOAD of "vacuous pin-ups". No one's daring to take even a baby step outside that very narrow little circle, and everything -- from the users to the merchants -- pander straight to it. So what do we get? Lots and lots and lots of the same damn thing.

No, my objection is the OVERLOAD of "vacuous pin-ups". No one's daring to take even a baby step outside that very narrow little circle, and everything -- from the users to the merchants -- pander straight to it. So what do we get? Lots and lots and lots of the same damn thing. Frankly, on one level, I agree with you. On another level -- that's what sells. Look at the views for gallery "pin-ups" vs. the gallery views for beautiful landscapes. Depends on one's purpose, I would say. Does one want to be popular, or does one want to create "high art"? If I was a merchant, I would want to sell.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Then we shouldn't whine too much when Poser isn't accepted any more than it is. Plain and simple, we bring it on "because that's what sells".

Ah....but there are those that create excellent art with Poser. And not to sell. I would say that Poser is what you make of it. You can create "cheap" art using 3ds, too. But no one rejects 3ds for this reason.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"Poser has its problems, significant ones even... but these threads never deal with Poser's real underlying problems."

Never is way too strong a term. Maybe "often", but not never. Heck, most of the threads I have seen even acknowledge that the compositing, posing and lighting allows for artistic expression and skill.

"na, its just because we pay 150 dollars for an entire application vs. a couple grand, and can produce good results with it. (that is entirely dependent on the artist)"

Hardly. They could spend the same $$$ at any time (the routinely spend it in plug ins and so on) and turn out arbitrary numbers of Vicki in temple poses... at least the ones with any skill could. Most of the decent ones wouldn't even need to buy Poser - just use Vicki's OBJ and buy a texture.

Compounding the ignorance of many of them with our own solves nothing. To say "bah, they jsut feel ripped off!" is just - naive (to be extremely polite).

no one rejects 3ds for this reason This is like the long-standing argument that 90% of what you see on TV is crap, but crap apparently sells enough that every TV season we see the same tired cliches in the same tired sitcoms. Then everyone says what a wasteland TV is, but no one seems all that interested in making anything more out of it. And what's the result? More crap, all dressed up with nowhere to go. The excellent art in Poser? That comes from people like David Ho, who pushes this program into the stratosphere. The rest? Pretty images, no argument there -- but to what end? So why do people reject Poser and not 3ds? Because of the nature of the 3d beast. The serious 3d folk are modellers, and they take a great deal of pride in creating something from scratch. It's their Grail. So why should we be surprised when they look at images that use a stock mesh and a stock texture and turn their nose up? For all the "well, they don't build the computers" attempts at an argument, we do have to accept that we're working at a level of 3d that's pretty facile and superficial and mono-directional, while theirs is plumbing slightly deeper and more complex stratae.

we do have to accept that we're working at a level of 3d that's pretty facile and superficial and mono-directional, while theirs is plumbing slightly deeper and more complex stratae

In my case, personally, I would never deny this. I don't do this for a living. I do it for fun only.

*****This is like the long-standing argument that 90% of what you see on TV is crap, but crap apparently sells enough that every TV season we see the same tired cliches in the same tired sitcoms. Then everyone says what a wasteland TV is, but no one seems all that interested in making anything more out of it.

And what's the result? More crap, all dressed up with nowhere to go.*****

And who will be the authority? The authority that will make all of the decisions, and that will enforce "quality" on the rest of us?

Yes, a lot of it is garbage. But -- people seem to like garbage.

The excellent art in Poser? That comes from people like David Ho, who pushes this program into the stratosphere. The rest? Pretty images, no argument there -- but to what end?

To what end are ANY pretty images? Or ugly images, for that matter? To what end are ANY images at all?

Poser is a tool, just like any other tool. And a tool can be used for either good or ill. But don't reject the tool merely because someone else doesn't use the tool in the right way.

Elitism is always a great temptation. It feels so GOOD to be superior!!!!!!

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"Compounding the ignorance of many of them with our own solves nothing. To say "bah, they jsut feel ripped off!" is just - naive (to be extremely polite). " well, it may sound naive after you miscontrue and misunderstand everything I said... but after seeing this argument oh, 100+ times by now... its true in far too many cases, and especially these cases. The folks that command the bucks and work in the industry don't care to bother with this argument, as they know Poser has its uses, its just not for everything. Most of them have used Poser for quick humans in scenes, I know many that have. I know a professional animator and graphic artist who works with Maya that has the most gorgeous modified P4 Dork rigged up in Maya that you ever saw. Looks better than Mike 2 and 3 even. I think many of the hobbyists that work with Max feel ripped off, especially when they see a Poser-derived scene that looks better than they can do. But I emphasise... the reason it looks better is because ... NOT ONLY ONE PERSON DID THE PIC! Its the same with games and movies... its never just one person! They utilise bought content and hire more than one person to do the work. That's my actual point. I think of the artist of a 3d work in Poser as more of a director. They are in charge of the entire look, the way the work communicates to the viewer. It is what the work communicates and expresses, that is the real point. Naked Vickies in temples express nothing, but its not a fault of the software, its a fault of the 'artiste'... put that blame where the blame belongs.

JoeyAristophanes ehhh some do take babysteps out of the sex scene. {I do enjoy making pinup but that is because it is a personal favorite and I do it in traditional mediums as well} I did the hideouse beauty set...Pharie has been doing some wonderful work not very vicki-esque...there are so many artists out there doing things out of the sex pinup scene and pretty woman with makeup scene. the thing is ...those dont get alot of attention. I think the Naked vickis in temples come to mind because there is so many of them but even those are different from each other..just like all the medevil dressed woman with wistful looks and pretty settings. they all are different. art doesnt have to sells something per se.it is a persons expression. I have seen poser work that made my eyes near come out of my head I had to check several times to even make sure it WAS poser. {then again I have seen other apps used and was like..erm..oooooooooooook} poser has its flaws...yup it does but when you think about that..the short commings..and see the things that some artists can do with it..then you realise it is a tool. one that is better in some hands then the other. it is a tool. so why then the dismissal of poser? GUH ...I am going for some strong turkish coffee and pray I get out of the artist block I am in...ohh but then agian if it was all cookie cutter slam bam thank you ma'am pic in a click proggy ....artist block wouldnt matter ...would it....

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

I do it for fun only. So do a lot of the folk at CGTalk, surprisingly enough. Sure, there's a lot of hardcore professionals at CGT, but there's far more amateurs who play with this stuff for the sheer hell of it. >> And who will be the authority? The authority that will make all of the decisions, and that will enforce "quality" on the rest of us? Irrelevant, sorry. It's not about "authority"; it's not about someone being an "arbiter". It's about the sheer OVERLOAD of a single theme, expressed in dizzying repetition, to the point where no style prevails because there is no style in the first place -- look at the Hot 20: almost everything there looks like it came from the same artist because it's all the same style. Poser is capable of far, far more -- but you have to make the personal choice to delve or not. Most folks won't -- BFD. >> It feels so GOOD to be superior! So who's really being superior here? Us or them? Somehow I sorta think that's one of those questions we really would prefer not to answer because the answer might not be the one we'd really like to hear.

Just "click" the magic button. Oh, you don't have one of these on your keyboard? Sorry 'bout that. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

OMG LOL Geep!!!!!!!

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

Its hard when even the app has its own name against it. You poser! lol

Hey DE, Thasa what'm here for .... ta make you peeps laugh. ;=] 'ceptin' when someone 'tacks ma "scale" ... ;=[ ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Yeah, and it's a sexist product, also. What this place needs is a good piece of s/w called "Posim." ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

ohh geep your "scale" is just fine I am sure.;) but I sure wish that I had one of those buttons it would make things so much easier!

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

The button? Just center it on your 'puter screen and then ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... push it and ... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ... see what happens! ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Dr Geep is NOT responsible for any fingerprints on yer screen ... neither! ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

What? .... Didn't work? Must be broken. ;=[

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

I'd like to flip the script, so to speak. Could it be that Poser is really more powerful than point-click-load-render? Have you/we/us/them really tapped into its power? Is there some tool, script, way of doing something that would push this app over? Think: Who ever would have thought to use Poser's transparency maps with hair? Z-Toons? "Fake" HDRI lighting? Who's really fully tapped into .CR2 hacking? JCM? ECM, etc? Remote control deformers? Animation? Could it be those "Modellers" see the potential in Poser and they've become leary, afraid of the future? Have we, because we're just "hobbyists" (Oh, dang. There's goes Anton screaming ;) )become afraid of the future? I think this may be a different dead horse.

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

"Could it be those "Modellers" see the potential in Poser and they've become leary, afraid of the future?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- No. they are too busy creating their own models to be wasting time "fearing the future" :-) like THIS one.

My website

YouTube Channel

Just wait until I do the same with my itty bitty Carrara, once my textures are finished ;) Its renderer is considered one of the better ones, and it doesn't cost a fortune to buy. Poser can't render an image like this because its renderer sucks wind. I haven't rendered a completed image in Poser in a coons age.

Attached Link: http://www.zs3d.com/prodhome.asp?id=14

Nudity in the link, and they are P5 renders. With good textures, any model can look real.

Thasa what'm here for .... ta make you peeps laugh. ;=] 'ceptin' when someone 'tacks ma "scale" ... ;=[ Hmmm, which reminds me, I've been wondering whatever happened to 'ol Uncle Stuffit...and I refer to the "Poser" one. I miss that guy.....:-(

GEEP GEEP It doesnt wooooooooooorkkk ohh geep I want push button creativityyyyy.....~pouts~

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

bijouchat ohh now that is a great render and of african amercian as well one of the harder skin tones to get to look real. hmmmmm see poser in the right hands is a great tool..;)

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

On the argument that Poser work made of purchased components is not "art": I realize no one's going to pay attention to this, but I'm going to say it anyway, so I can get it in print, save it to my harddrive somewhere, and just copy and paste it the next time this vampiric (undying and energy-sucking) conversation comes up. Collage is by definition an art. (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dicitonary, 10th Edition). Thus all arguments that anything is not "art" because it is an assembly of "other's" components are invalid.

So do a lot of the folk at CGTalk, surprisingly enough. Sure, there's a lot of hardcore professionals at CGT, but there's far more amateurs who play with this stuff for the sheer hell of it.

And I hope that they enjoy what they do.

*****>>And who will be the authority? The authority that will make all of the decisions, and that will enforce "quality" on the rest of us?

Irrelevant, sorry. It's not about "authority"; it's not about someone being an "arbiter". It's about the sheer OVERLOAD of a single theme, expressed in dizzying repetition, to the point where no style prevails because there is no style in the first place -- look at the Hot 20: almost everything there looks like it came from the same artist because it's all the same style. Poser is capable of far, far more -- but you have to make the personal choice to delve or not. Most folks won't -- BFD.*****

Irrelevant? Oh, really?

Perhaps, just perhaps.....the Hot 20 are what they are due to popular tastes. If one does not approve of the things to be found in the Hot 20, then one is always welcome to say so.

My statement concerning authority stands. Which item(s) among the Hot 20 should be removed, in your opinion?

*****>> It feels so GOOD to be superior!

So who's really being superior here? Us or them? Somehow I sorta think that's one of those questions we really would prefer not to answer because the answer might not be the one we'd really like to hear.*****

That's always a risk.

But, I'll take my chances.

The next time that I see a thread started here about those sub-artists over at cgtalk, I'll agree with you.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

The next time that I see a thread started here about those sub-artists over at cgtalk, I'll agree with you But you already have. :) >> My statement concerning authority stands. Which item(s) among the Hot 20 should be removed, in your opinion? None. But accepting something for its ability to maintain the status quo is not the same as thinking maybe, just maybe, we could be pushing this proggie a little harder than we currently are. Post 76 makes an excellent point: that by shoving and prodding and pushing things that maybe weren't meant to be shoved, we keep pushing the boundaries back. But it's ironic that for all the pushing and prodding, it still winds up being yet another stereotypical image of a Caucasian woman with long legs and perfect makeup and not enough clothing. Then folks get all upset when someone points out this rather unavoidable fact; still, when a technique as potentially versatile as transparency maps gets used to crank out version 2,897 of lace undies and version 6,940 of long tresses in sexy disarray... well, hell, talk about wasted potential, sorry. We haven't come anywhere close to realizing what this program can do, because we get to a certain point, and then we stop, waiting for folks like Geep or Catharina to break down the walls for us and show us how to make things that no one thought possible. Sorry. It just gets really frustrating sometimes. I know, I know -- it's the market. The market wants fantasy armour and slinky lingerie and impossible high heels and textures with immaculate mascara. The market wants page after page of interchangable, collect-them-all-amaze-your-friends-at-parties pin ups. I guess I'm getting to the point where it's all just a frigging bore. Hell, 90% of TV may be what the market wants, but that doesn't mean I'm required to like it. :)

my post linked to a black woman texture with long legs and no makeup and well... not enough clothing. But she looked real ;) for what its worth, I've seen people bitching about cgtalk snobbery over on the Zbrush forum site too, and that program, though a lowend price, is used by highend professionals most frequently to do character sculpting and morphing. It appears to me that cgtalk people just like bitching when the program costs under 1k and can't adjust to change in anyway, shape or form. I can only imagine how these threads are going to look if Daz Studio ever makes it to its potential, and gives people the opportunity to render far more accurately animated figures complete with weightmapping, just like the highend profi apps. Going to be ugly... I guess.

It appears to me that cgtalk people just like bitching when the program costs under 1k and can't adjust to change in anyway, shape or form With all due respect, I can't agree. I've had good experience over there. Yeah, you get the attitudious jerks, but that's no different from this place FTTT. CGTalk is really about taking 3d to a higher level, regardless of the software -- even Poser has known to surprise them on occasion, but it's an application of Poser that pushes what the proggie can do. If that's snobbery, well, okay... but I don't see it that way.

hmm, did you read what I said, the Zbrush people have problems with many of them too. Now, I don't know where you've been looking ;) but there's not a whole lot of naked Caucasian girls exported from Poser posted over there, its more a land of monster madness and Lord of the Rings fans... with people doing their own modelling and morphing. Even WetaDigital modellers (Lord of the Rings fame) post there on occasion. Some CGtalk folks are ok, but the attitudes one runs into if anything diverges from how they think the world should be ordered tends to meet with some resistance. A conservative lot over there.

and the new version of Zbrush definitely pushes ALL of CG in a particularly new direction, with many studios now using the app in house. So much for that. Its just not expensive, that's all.

This reminds me of prepuberty discussions of the kind "mine is longer than yours" - the workflow and the results counts. I use any program or platform which is useful for the the things I am aiming at. I like this discussions for annother reason - it shows me how easily people get divided into blind followers for ideas and that they, for no obvious reasons, would start to fight and give their lives, even for a 3d program. My advice: grow up and face reality

Thank you Mungopark!! :-) Well said

My website

YouTube Channel

I agree, MungoPark. BTW... nice gallery... you do some nice work with Poser. actually the original discussion started with a guy in the 3ds forum pissed off that naked Caucasian Poser pinups get all the attention, it had nothing to do with the program, its abilities and shortcomings. Mostly because I'm sure... the fellow has never used it. It had nothing to do with why 3ds is better than Poser. And yes, 3ds is better than Poser in a lot of ways. Just not in price. I prefer tools that are high quality and affordable to the average user, and therefore accessible for average people to explore art and express their vision, no matter what that vision may be. I am decidedly not an elitist. I see no reason to spend more money on an application than I do on my hardware. I personally do sexy pinup but I get more involved with them and post them at sites that allow them, much of my work goes in a decidedly ... Olivia DeBerardinis sort of vein and hence is too extreme for this website. I personally find some extremely creative work in that genre. You just can't pursue it fully over here... and it really does look stupid when you see a Naked Vickie in a temple with a sword... where you're wondering what the hell is she naked for? But then that's because people are pretty much limited to that by the tos here, too. Implied sexual content is forbidden by the tos, which can be interpreted pretty conservatively to include nearly any romantic situation when it involved nudity.

grow up and face reality Well, IMHO, the "reality" is that this thematic mono-direction is what created an environment that led to incidents like the whole BMO and Orion flap and countless more like them, not to mention the many more we know will be uncovered in months to come. That's just as much a reality as whining that naked breasts get all the gallery hits. After all, consider: when was the last time we saw this kind of chaos erupt over a Michael texture?

and what does that have to do with this thread, anyway? Those flaps have nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of the thread. Orion's mistake was pretty minor and BMO was a classic case of 'taking the shortcut' to fame and fortune. Which happens everywhere, happened more times than I can count when I did gaming stuff. Its not isolated to Poser.

Attached Link: http://www.newtek.com/products/lightwave/contests/dec-02/winners/tutorials/model/Guldoni_Dav

here is the link too the tutorial that i promised yesterday. i know that it is for lightwave, but wings is quite similar and FREE and i'd love to see some of you guys try this. joeya makes some good points. folks who don't use poser probably look down on it due to the stereotypes of poser images...spawned by our own gallery. i like cg talk. folks are harsh there, but it is a good place for learning stuff. and, i can't help but grinning when i think of any 3d heavyweight browsing our own poser forum and lifting eyebrows at threads like....HELP MY VICKI DISAPPEARS WHEN I TRY AND PUT CLOTHES ON HER. chuckle...it could be inferred by looking at the gallery that that question, posed so often has not been correctly answered. back to serious....poser is capable of rendering a variety of things...animals, scenery, you know, the sort of meshes you see at cgtalk. and you have a vast supply of free and for sale meshes available. yet, we get nekkid vicki ad nauseum in our galleries. if folks want to be taken serious by other 3d sites, seems to me they should try another tack and render something BESIDES vicki. otherwise, don't complain if cgtalk folk don't feel like digging through thousands of vicki renders to find a bit of treasure. that's hard work!!!

I could care less what a few cgtalk hobbyists think, and yes... a great majority are also hobbyists with a deeper pocketbook. I enjoy many parts of the site, mostly the 2d software parts where its not populated by a bunch of sex allergic boys, giving tips that actually help me in my postwork of images. A great many people are making money off the Poser based pinups, and pinups in all media have been popular as long as there's been art, even Bougereau's beauties were 19th century pinup, just in oil instead of Poser. I refuse to apologise for my choice of genre, one that I find more profitable and enjoyable. One should do what they enjoy in their personal art, and tell the rest of the world to shove it up their backside. Seriously. Unless its commercial art you're doing for a client and you're being paid to produce art to their interests, I see no reason to pander to a few vocal people that don't share the same interests as myself. And lets face it, 3d art in general is full of either fantasy art, scifi, or pinups. Just like every other artistic media, including traditional ones. I can paint just as well as a lot of these guys can model. I can morph the meshes very quickly in Zbrush with my Wacom and get a very different look to a model. All one has to do is compare the Freak to V3 and yes... realise they don't look the same at all. Same mesh.

*****>> The next time that I see a thread started here about those sub-artists over at cgtalk, I'll agree with you

But you already have. :)*****

Where? I've yet to see anyone suggest that the artists at cgtalk are "less than" -- merely because they use a different program.

I have, however, seen them criticised for their attitude towards OUR program of choice.

90% of TV may be what the market wants, but that doesn't mean I'm required to like it. :)

On this one, I agree with you. Neither you, nor I, have to like it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

watches the scrimmage

ok so the point is not so much whether poser art is art..but whether poser is a viable tool....or is it that there are too many naked vickis in temples for poser to be taken seriously??? Poser is like any other "tool" in the right hands it is magic in the wrong hands it is like fingernails on the chalkboard. naked pinups are most definatly art. There are ahuge amount of artists with very acceptable High society galleries of nothing BUT pin up work. just because you do not like it JoeyAristophanes doesnt mean it isnot art or not worthy. as with any "art" there is a difference between "pinups" and just naked woman laying around. if that makes any sence.

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

" ... naked woman laying around ... " OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooo................ Where? ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

" ... naked woman laying around ... " Does zero for me. Now a Geep in the altogether might be worth checking out. ;)

I seriously doubt it. What are you, a visual masochist? ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

It's possible. Trust me, you wouldn't want to see me anything but fully clothed either.

Tsk, tsk, tsk... Could someone model some water to throw on these two? (Poser water isn't good enough).

It's not the tool or the subject that makes something art...it is the artist and the audience.

WHAT is possible? "Trust me, you wouldn't want to see me anything but fully clothed either." How do you know? After all ... "Beauty is in the eyes ... " ... isn't it? ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Where have they been hiding...someone was looking for those on the Community forum.

but whether poser is a viable tool No, the point of the thread was, "Why isn't Poser better accepted by the serious 3D community?" And my point, which seems to be trampled by the indignant knee-jerk reactions, is that we bring it on ourselves because we limit Poser's capabilities by focusing on one small part of what can be generated through its use. Poser is capable of far more than just "naked women lying around", but you'd hardly know it based on the gallery and it's the gallery that people use as a barometer of what the program can do. You go to cgTalk, and maybe you'll see tons of fantasy images but theyre images executed with far more diversity, both in subject matter and style. Here, you look at the Hot 20, and what do you see? Variations on the same theme, all executed with almost exactly the same style because the artists are all drawng from the same well: the same base mesh, textures with minimal avriance, and painted hair technique that comes straight out of a singular tutorial. ... which was the point of raising BMO and Orion, if you think about it a little. We established earlier in this discussion that it's the market that wants little but pretty girl art and that the merchants, in their drive to sell, will pander to that with great diligence, even to the point of stealing from each other to do so. And the result? Waves of photocopy textures, all with the same skin tone, the same make up, the same general look... because it "sells". It just contributes to the homogenistic inbreeding that plagues this program. Don't try to pull this into a rant about the "high art of pin ups". That's irrelevant to the point of the discussion. If you want to create pin ups, go for it. Have a great time. Call them "art" all you wish. But at the same time, remember that those pin ups and "nude studies" and NVIATs, as interchangable as they most definitely are, are what people outside the Poser community see as about all this program can do because there's not much else for them to see.

It's possible I'm a visual masochist....that should be pretty obvious from my gallery. :)

Uh oh .......... water????? S'ok .......... my doc says I am made up of 98% of that stuff anyway. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Last statement (#109) was for Dr. Geep. I tend to agree with JoeyAristophanes ... the limitations are within ourselves and not in the possibilities of the tools. Out of here...need to grab some lunch.

" It's possible I'm a visual masochist ..." Well, in that case ... ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

when I think about it, I see BMO (not Orion, I can give him the benefit of the doubt) being just one more in a long line of copycatting behaviour that I saw in 3d chats with characters. It goes like this. See something you like, nick it, call it yours, say how wonderful you are, try to make a buck off it if you can. They do it in the art forums by posting other peoples renders and art too, from airbrushed work, to photography, to lowend Poser, all the way up to highend Maya. People rip off meshes and textures, and reuse and resell them to the point of making you ill in the 3d games and chats. Heck most of the hair you see for the Sims are Poser models, sometimes offered for free, sometimes not. And in most cases, nobody was asked. Egos and money, that's all that was, and is. Poser is no different from painting in many ways, its overall cheap and a lot of people can afford to play. Pinup can be downright pedestrian or it can be fine art like Olivia and Serpieri. Big deal.

Wolf359: ey man...what renderer did you use to make the photo in #77? Carrara or Poser 5? its freaaaaken greaaaat!!! now that's GREAT work man! please please tell us..... =) bijouchat: ugh!! hey man, did you have to post a pic of a woman with hairy pits in #79? thats NOT HOT at all!! maybe in France and Cuba...but not here in the good old USA! =) ::::shivers::::

i protest!! this is outragous!!! =)

she looks real, that was MY point. Now Poser women have to always look hot is Joey's point. g

and Wolf359 didn't make that pic. He got it off the web as an example of what can be done in a highend app. Victoria 3 can look just as good given the right shaders and texture maps, placed in an app such as Lightwave. (where she was created anyway) last but not least, I'm not male.

I'd just like to reitererate what FyreSpiryt wrote:
""On the argument that Poser work made of purchased components is not "art":
I realize no one's going to pay attention to this, but I'm going to say it anyway, so I can get it in print, save it to my harddrive somewhere, and just copy and paste it the next time this vampiric (undying and energy-sucking) conversation comes up.
Collage is by definition an art. (Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dicitonary, 10th Edition). Thus all arguments that anything is not "art" because it is an assembly of "other's" components are invalid. ""

I was paying attention, FyreSpiryt, thank you for that !

And to those who think the Poser gallery is so full of repetitive rubbish that they never bother to look for the odd gem anymore to leave a useful and improving comment on, well , thank heaven for small mercies, isn't my life all the poorer for lack of your edifying and helpful comments . NOT .

I'm gonna go do another nekkid chik collage pik now, might even throw in a sword for good luck and then postwork it to death.

The BEST THING about Poser is that since I started using it I don't watch all that c**p on telly anymore !

PS :The other night at a party I had a jerk go all snooty on me because I'm trying to learn to use Carrara 3 (" cheap wanna be app" ) instead of Max which he uses......there's just no winning with people who see life as one big contest.......call me defeatest but why try ? Then I told him I use Poser just to see him choke on his drink ; )

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

fair enough..... but dont do that again though! LOL..... =)

" ... just to see him choke ..." ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Gini, if you need with Carrara help just toss me a line, I'm bijou on other forums. I use it all the time, its got one of the best renderers out there, regardless of price. Excellent example of the fact that its got to do with price and not function.

Gini: brign on em nekkid chiks.....that what we like!! hell ye! =) u probably wont understand anyway cause you aint a guy....a guy with primal beastly desires......cause thats what we are.....n we like it!

ye....Carrara 2.1 is great....i got it several months ago.....havent used it yet really.....but i know its great though....if that makes sense.......

apologies.....i just gotta get used to new times.... some women are gettin into crap most men obses on....like Poser n stuff.......

biggert-I'm missing something here ? What exactly are 'apologies' for and what new times are you refering to ? Women have always been 'into crap most men obsess on, perhaps just quieter about it. It's easier for us as we can just look in a mirror to see what gravity and age might do........and then ignore it anyway. Bijouchat- Thanks ! I'll probably take you up on that. It was a Xmas present and I've only just cracked it open.

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

Heh.... One of the finest moments I've had was running one of Phoul's animation demo's for a 'real program' snob and watching him get all hot and bothered about how -that- was the way Lightwave could rock! Needless to say, certain portions of his elite anatomy shriveled to nothing when he found out that Vue 4Mover 4 and Poser 4 was the applications used. And the sole issues brought up once the twit got his tongue out of his larynx was how cheap the proggies were, and 'I could model all of that!'. Is there a glut of NVIATWAS? At Renderosity, yes. Renderotica has a rather more diverse subject spectrum (and for anyone looking for what Poser can do, go into the Series gallery and search out 'Proof of Life'). Other sites have their own 'staples', and every program out there has it's iconic 'Oh Ghod, not again!'. There's the Bryce 'Reflective Sphere Over Water'. Vue's 'Mountain by Body of Water With Tree On Shore'. ZBrush's 'And Would You Believe That Is Just A Cube?' AutoCAD has 'The Eternal Gear'. Max, Maya, LW, Cinema4D, TrueSpace, each and every one of them has a glut subjectobject. It's part of the learning process. I'm teaching myself animation with Poser and Vue Pro. Getting to that point in one of the Big Four would require years of practice and study time that I simply do not have. The programs I do have let me get something done, and reasonably quickly. I can learn new techniques as I go along; I do not have to fully master a piece of software to even produce a semi-competent render. If someone considers my work as somehow less due to the tools and resources I use, so what? That kind of attitude is a holdover from kindergarden sandbox politics. My response is to either shrug, of ask if they would like to try it with my cheap, easy programs? Haven't had any takers as of yet.....

aight...its coo....its coo.....its all good. only in America

DaleB- Lol, love the 'staples', and true. biggert-and in the UK........ anyway, I'm outta here for the night. And on behalf of tomorrow : Wishing you all a fun New Years Eve and a Happy New Year -XXX Gini

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

DaleB: Way up in the thread, I commented that my own experience with Bryce presentations at CGTalk had been really good -- no one trashed the software used, no one gave me grief because it wasn't LW or Max. I honestly don't think there are as many software snobs at places like CGTalk as we're led to believe. Bijou: Now Poser women have to always look hot is Joey's point. You wish, hon. :)

And my point, which seems to be trampled by the indignant knee-jerk reactions

Who jerked? What jerk -- where?

This jerk, maybe?

PS :The other night at a party I had a jerk go all snooty on me because I'm trying to learn to use Carrara 3 (" cheap wanna be app" ) instead of Max which he uses......there's just no winning with people who see life as one big contest.......call me defeatest but why try ? Then I told him I use Poser just to see him choke on his drink ; )

Must have been some party! I've never been to a party where 3D software was a hot topic of conversation. Boring talk about corporate direction, profits, etc.......but not 3D software.

Great opening line: "I've got Max and Lightwave! And I'm NOT one of those Poser geeks!"

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Who jerked? What jerk -- where? Oh, you know, the usual: "What I do is ART, dammit!!!" :)

I've heard of Art Deco but ... What is Art Dammit? ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Oh, sorry ...................... didn't see the comma. ;=[

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

What is Art Dammit? Beaver art? You know, as in little animals that build.... oh, never mind.

Attached Link: Beaver Art

In case you think I'm kidding about that....

I'm not gonna touch that one with a 120" pole. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Really, little animals. And art. And I would like it noted that I am a 62" Pole and I touched it. :)

And if ya gots blue eyes, I spose yer gonna tell us that they wrote a song 'bout cha, huh. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

The only question left is...is it art??

Because, as we know, art is in the eye of the beholder.

Yeah, I know the cliche is about beauty...but beauty isn't really what this thread is about. Art is originality creativity imagination looking at the world in a new way bringing that new way to the audience Anything less, is just a picture, a graphic, a doodle. A picture, a graphic, a doodle can be art. But art is something that rises above the tools. I really believe that. And if you think endless repetitions of the same graphic is art, then you are right in there with Thomas Kinkaid, who does lovely, mindless repeats of the same thing. And that's okay if that's what you want to do. But is it art? No, I think art is something more than the endless repeating of someone else's original idea. And why much of what is done in Poser isn't art. And why it is so lovely to discover art in Poser when it happens.

this got nothing tha do with this thread but gots tha say it. As the God Father of Soul Mr. James Brown said: "Livin in Americaaaaa" :::shaking my hips now and doing that dance of the white man::::

this got nothing tha do with this thread but gots tha say it. As the creator of the "Twist" Mr. Chubby Checker said: "Twist and shout!" :::shaking my hips now and doing that dance of the black man::::

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Hank Ballard, who wrote the song, died this year. I bet they are twisting up a storm up there now. :)

this got nothing tha do with this thread but gots tha say it. As the creator of "The Magic Flute" Mr. W. A. Mozart said: "(insert string of consonants here)!" :::shaking my helmet now and doing that dance of the really big soprano::::

this got nothing to do with the thread butI gottsa ... ~does the snoopy dance~

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

"Everybody dance..." -- Corky Sherwood, Waiting for Guffman

So now we kniow, Vaked Vicky is why Poser gets no respect. Naked Vicky is the cause of piracy. Naked Vicky is responsible for the sorid atate of network television and I'll be damned if that dizzy dame isn't probably hiding Sadam's VX cannisters in her capacious cleavage. So start rendering some serious respectable business here so we can get some respect, have peace in out time and please God get Jerry Springer off the tube.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Oh who the hell cares? Do you need someone to validate you? Do whatever you want and don't give a damn what anyone says.

...... Kendra

Knee-jerk ? Moi ? I was just dancing 'round my 2 pence. Post 149 says it best.........but then we'd never have fun squabbles.

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

Funny that when folks can't respond any other way, they drag out a nun to make a point. Whatever, folks. Just don't start whining about Poser not getting any respect when you can't even do it yourself. :: off to dance ::

my top 5 uses of Poser (and why i got poser in tha first place!) 1. Porn! 2. Porn! 3. Porn! 4. Action/Adventure pics 5. Porn! when i first got Poser 5 man, i "played" with Miss Possette day in day out...."I says aint no one touchin mah woman!".....i deleted Don and that other guy....juz in case they be foolhardy n try sumthin.....Miss Possette was my main woman til that Miss Vicky came a runnin tha me....then ah learned me what it was tha be a real man! and she be mah main woman since! i buys this here woman clothes and all em stuff women like....but jus in case she like me only fo mah money...i gots me Miss DinaV on da side....I says "Oh lawd, what that wench Miss Vicky like of me?" by god i aints sures of anythin....Miss DinaV aints the purrtiest woman, but she sure can bend withouts a breakin up!

O.o I need a translator in here! ---------~~~~~~--------~~~~~~---------- I remember when I was given poser....I was amazed floored and far to excited to even be able to think straight.{ok so I am easily amused} it was just that I remember as a teen watching documentaries on PBS about computer generated graphics. and how at that time we didnt have the tech to do the human form smoothly or animated it with any realism. I remember hearing the words fractal geomatry and thinking POOP no way can I do that{I suck at math} but what happen ,,,,,now we toss them out left and right like xerox machines. I love it because it saves me a heck of alot of time I can express things in this medium that I couldnt before, I adore being able to make a series of pictures. with EXACTLY the same person and same lighting..and all of it. so so much easier then the old hard way. ~sighs~ it is a valuble and valid artistic tool. I was thinking today ...not one of my clients that have bought a print from me or asked me to do work ever EVER asked what proggy I used. so all in all...what does it really matter as long as the end result is what is pleasing?

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

some people use Poser tha make sum money n stuff.... i use it for theraphy purposes....ye....thats right baby.....it helps keep me calm....ohhhh.....ohhh soo calm.... a lot cheaper and more confidential than a head shrinker.......

Gee, well actually, my nun is the only clothed Vicky I have sooo... Guess I better not use my anology about hammers and the crucifixion. The point is that no professional or serious amateur is going to judge a tool by what other people have done with it. You read the specs, check out a demo and see if it's useful for what you want to do. Poser is an inexpensive and very accessible tool for working with human figures so guess what a lot of people are going to use it for a lot of the time - Vox Populi. I'm sure there's an IT director on the unemployment line somewhere who said - "Use web technology? Nah, all I see on the web is porn." If that's the way the these CG Gods evaluate Poser then they may be clever but they're not real bright.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken