Attached Link: http://www.paypalwarning.com/Default.htm

**WARNING:**

Your Paypal account can be frozen at any time, without advance notice leaving you without your money for weeks (if not forever), and there isn't much you can do about it. Paypal is currently being investigated by regulatory authorities in three states!

Links:

PayPal Warning
Things You Should See
PayPal Wall of Shame

Perhaps most of you won't care, but if any of you decide to try and sell your products and/or artwork from your website using PayPal, this will be especially interesting to you.

This recently happened to me with PayPal when I tried to sell some of my artwork from my website. PayPal froze my account - not allowing me to withdraw funds from my account, to accept or receive payments, to close my account, to remove my bank account and credit card information, etc. - because they said that my site is "offensive" and violates their "Acceptable Use - Mature Audience Policy" with regard to "Adult Material". The only "Adult Material" on my site are a couple of artistic renders of nudes.

On the other hand, Renderosity and similar sites which, mind you, sell fetish props/clothing, bondage props/clothing, as well as similar items and has a crapload of nudity, sexually stimulating images and the like in the gallery - curiously seem to slip by their "Adult Material" policy. When I wrote to PayPal to ask what exactly was so offensive about my site and asked why other sites are allowed to sell things much more "sexually oriented" than anything on my site, all I got was a canned response and a comment that there are no appeals, my account was "closed". (Please note here that "closed" means I cannot access my money or make any transactions except to add money to my account. They still retain all of my financial information such as bank account and credit card account numbers.) They even had the gall write me recently to tell me that my credit card on file with them is about to expire and wanted me to update it!

Excerpts From PayPal's "Mature Audiences Policy" (emphasis added):

Important Note Regarding PayPal's Mature Audiences Policy:

You may not use PayPal to send or receive payments for any "adult" or "sexually oriented" materials or services.

---

How does PayPal define "adult" or "sexually oriented" material?
"Adult" or "sexually-oriented" material includes, but is not limited to: - Any visual representation of human genitals presented in such a manner as to suggest sexual activity

• Any visual representation of any form of sexual intercourse involving humans
• Any materials which require that individuals be eighteen (18) or older (depending on the jurisdiction) to view or purchase those materials
• Any non-textual materials clearly designed to sexually arouse the viewer/reader
• Any items which, because of their nature or because of the item description, appear to be designed for use in sexual/adult activity
• Any items which depict human sexual characteristics in a degrading fashion
• **
  **
• Any item that portrays frontal nudity will normally be treated as "adult" material

What is not considered "adult" or "sexually oriented" material?
Material that is not considered "adult" or "sexually oriented" includes but is not limited to: - That which is a small and insignificant part of a catalog, book, periodical, or other work which is not, as a whole, primarily devoted to sexual matters

• Pieces of artwork that may be considered fine art-such as certain paintings, carvings, figurines and other similar materials. Examples include, but are not limited to, Michelangelo's David, certain (but not all) vintage pinup art, a renaissance-style painting of a nude female, or nude cherubs in the form of human infants (in the style of Raphael)

Can material containing nudity ever be sold using PayPal?
Yes. As long as the material containing nudity is not considered "adult" (as defined above) and fits into one of the categories below, you may use PayPal to sell the material outside of eBay, and you may sell or advertise such material on your website listed in PayPal Shops. You will not be allowed to use PayPal to sell these items through eBay's Mature Audience Category. -

• Collectible RisquPostcards
  PayPal permits the sale of postcards that contain some nudity but are not "adult" or "sexually oriented" (as defined above). While persons portrayed in postcards may be topless, scantily clothed, or in mildly suggestive poses, any postcards sold using PayPal should not depict male or female genitalia (frontal nudity below the waist) or strong sexual content. Because this category is for collectibles, these postcards should be at least 10 years old, and the description of the item should include the approximate year of publication.
• Collectible Pin Up Art
  PayPal permits the sale of pinups that contain some nudity but are not "adult" or "sexually oriented" (as defined above). While persons portrayed in pinups may be topless, scantily clothed or in mildly suggestive poses, the pin ups in this category should not depict male or female genitalia (frontal nudity below the waist) or strong sexual content. Because this category is for collectibles, these items should be at least 10 years old, and the description of the item should include the approximate year of publication.
• Pre-1940 RisquPhotographs
  PayPal permits the sale of photographic images that contain some nudity but are not "adult" or "sexually oriented" as defined above. While persons portrayed in these photographs may be topless, scantily clothed or in mildly suggestive poses, the pin ups in this category should not depict male or female genitalia (frontal nudity below the waist) or strong sexual content. In addition, these items should be published prior to 1940, and the description of the item should include the approximate year of publication.
• Items not falling under this category and which are therefore not permitted include items which are intended for use in a sexual setting (such as "bondage" and "fetish" items), items which display sexual activity or portray human genitalia in a "life-like" or realistic fashion, and vibrators intended for use in sexual activity (as opposed to ordinary massagers).

(Entire document can be found at this link - http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside&ed=mature)

Hmmm, we use paypal and have never had any problems, going on 6 years now. Sharen

....but thank you for the information, I never knew about this before, I will check it out. Sharen

Sharen: Do you have anything on your site which could be considered "adult" in nature?

PayPal is handy, but if you use it, be careful not to keep any money in the account for long. As the warning says, they can freeze it for any reason. A friend of mine has had her account frozen for weeks now. The reason? She sold a ceramic angel on eBay last summer. Over six months later, her customer complained that it arrived broken. Said customer claims she didn't bother to open the package for six months. My friend thought that was unreasonable. But PayPal has frozen her account, and all funds in it.

I wouldn't think so, but that is what is concerning, when others assume that something is "adult" in nature may not be my interpertation of "adult". We are also adding a gallery in the next few weeks for our customers and I would not want to be restricted if Slight Nudity (my interpertation) will be a problem. Sharen

Fortunatley we are not connected to Ebay, which I think they have several different rules together. But I agree, never leave to much in there for to long a time. Sharen

I've never thought either paypal or ebay were good ideas, and from other groups I know that both have been hacked frequently. The only way I would even consider using paypal is setting up an account, only for that purpose. I only have one charge card, but have set it up with the bank that I am notified as soon as any charges come in. Works well, and no complaints. Needless to say, if I were to set up an account for paypal, the amount in it would be enought to cover any purchase, and the service charge, but not a penny more. I have to grin though, my alter ego keeps getting the scam notice from the phoney paypal that wants me to send in another card number. They may cancel my (non-existant) account, we'll talk about it later. Much later.

I wrote to PayPal to ask for clarification on their TOS, but I never got a reply. I know that Exotica's account was frozen because her digital art site was said to be "too explicit" (or whatever; they claimed it was TOS violating). I also wonder how R'osity gets away with using PayPal. A fair percentage of stuff in the store would violate PayPal's TOS, I suspect. Probably if you make them enough money, they leave your account alone... shrug bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

LOL! Yeah, I don't think they get hacked so much as "phished." There was an article on MSNBC.com awhile back, where an interviewed hacker claimed he had his pick of 400 or more eBay accounts at any given time. He just sent out spam, telling people to reply with their usernames and passwords or their accounts would be cancelled. Only one out of a hundred actually did it, but if you send out enough spam...

But how does a TOS violation give them the right to effectively steal your money?

I came across the site I linked to above just today so I haven't had a chance to read everything.

I have had my PayPal account for 3 years. All of a sudden it is in violation of their TOS?? Is there anything on my site that is anywhere near as explicit as some of the stuff you see right here in the Marketplace?

They claim they are "holding" the money but based on what I read they can effectively "hold" it forever and there is not a thing you can do about it.

This isn't about people hacking into your PayPal account and/or receiving phoney emails from people pretending to be PayPal. This is about discrimination and PayPal by all intents and purposes, taking your money. There is no phone number on the site to call anyone. I get the same canned response if I email them. This is BS!

I cannot remove my credit card or bank account information. I cannot send or receive funds but curiously enough, Ican ADD funds to my account. Yup, just want I want to do....give them more of my money. (David is my husband just in case your wondering about the name. I have only blocked the email addy and our last name.)

This is what i get when i login to my "closed" account.

Exotica.. check out this site as well http://www.paypalsucks.com/ also : http://www.aboutpaypal.org/ also check out the class action lawsuit article.. http://news.com.com/2100-1017-842240.html (not sure if this will help you or not though)

Attached Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?fid=6&tid=1529&old_block=0

Exotica, You might want to read this thread. It's by a former PayPal employee who's spilling some of the inside details. Pretty shocking reading. Especially the fact that a lot of the scams are perhaps being done by PayPal employees! Maybe nudity isn't the problem at all. mac

The ONLY thing I use PayPal for is to buy from PhilC, since it's the only option, and because Phil can be trusted. I DO NOT trust PayPal, however, because of numerous stories like Exotica's. Posette, your question is a good one. It seems to me that refusing to return account funds is theft, pure and simple. I have a friend who was making a lot of money from his "Goth Erotica" site, until PayPal suddenly pulled the plug on the payment system about a year ago, when they implemented their new puritanical policy. This basically ruined the site for my friend, who had to shell out to a lot of customers who had subscribed. It might have been different if they'd had that policy from the beginning, but they didn't, they moved the goal posts mid-game. I'm aware that the majority of PayPal experiences for customer and merchant alike are trouble-free, but again, based on the experiences of others, I really don't trust them. Exotica, I'm so sorry this has happened and I hope they will pay you what they owe you.

Thanks. I'll check these out.

Mac, that message is chilling. But it makes sense. PayPal must be losing their shirts on chargebacks, now that they allow them, and since they aren't going bankrupt, they're making the money back somehow.

Well, actually, the joke is on them. I didn't have any funds in my account when they "closed" it. If I did, you could bet on it that I'd sue them for all they have! What upsets me about this whole thing - for starters is: 1. I was discriminated against, plain and simple - why? I don't know. It's obvious to anyone reading this that PayPal DOES allow sites with "adult" content to sell using their system. I've been discriminated against in the past and that is one of my biggest pet peeves. 2. I never sold a thing after listing my Poser Exotica website on my PayPal account. (See my email in post #12 toward the bottom.) I had only just put up the PayPal buttons to sell a plant prop set and a pose set. After removing the PayPal buttons from my site they still would not allow my PayPal account to remain "open." In the past I have used PayPal primarily to make purchases at some sites that did not accept credit cards. A nyway, if they wanted to completely "close" my account, why did they (and still do) refuse to remove my bank account and financial information? They have no right to retain this information if I request it to be removed. I do not like the fact that they have access to my accounts and can seemingly take what they please. 3. They have no right to hold anyone's money hostage. That is effectively what they are doing. I don't know of any legal grounds for this.

According to that link Mac posted, they know darn well they don't have a right to keep anyone's money. They're counting on the fact that it costs more to sue than it you'll ever get back. They figure you'll give up, and they'll get to keep your money. :-P

Just canceled my account with them, not going to support them in any way. Marque

Just closed my account as well, Marque.

Exotica, my intention by mentioning scams and fraud that happen outside of paypal was not to divert, just to reinforce that the existance of paypal and it's almost universal acceptance makes it easier for scammers. After following some of the links, it now seems to me that the biggest scammer is probably paypal itself. As far as I am aware, confiscation of funds is a priviledge that is vested only in the courts, and paypal certainly isn't a court of law. I do know the consumer protection laws can vary from state to state, but paypal must comply with not only the laws of the state they are in, but with the laws of states they do business in. By their not allowing an appeal, they violate the rights granted in our Constitution. One other hint, their having your credit card number does them no good if you cancel that one and apply for another. I've done that with others that kept trying to bill me for things not ordered. It's effective.

Well, I've just spent the last 1 1/2 hours reading posts complaining about PayPal andd I have to say I'm totally shocked. I wanted more information because I had been considering using PayPal for my own broker payments through DAZ. Well, Not any more. No sirree! Even if you discount some of the posts as being obvious fakes from people with a grudge or just too much time on their hands, it still leaves a HUGE amount of complaints. And it's pretty easy to spot the genuine posts. Then, if you add the various threads from lawyers, the class actions suits and the Federal and State investigations, it's pretty clear that something stinks at PayPal. Exotica, If you read carefully, you'll find that PayPal won't remove your bank account and financial information. That's one of the major problems. Once they have that info, it will stay with them. (From the PayPalSucks FAQ Page) 'We also recommend that you remove any checking and credit card accounts before you close your account, if you can. The problem is, Paypal keeps that information forever. But removing it shows your intent, and if the account gets hacked, it's less likely that the hacker will be able to access your accounts' Judging by what I read, the only way to be completely safe is to close ALL those bank accounts for good and open new ones. Otherwise you run the risk of PayPal (or some corrupt PP employee) eventually making withdrawals from your account whether you like it or not. Sad.... Really sad. mac

it is stupid.. then why could i use paypal in the checkout if i order, lets say for example, some of the bondage harness for maya/anime doll ? (there are 4 of them, 3 from one merchant, and another from a different merchant) i checked and the paypal option was here if i did a false checkout with these items in my shopping cart... if naked women clothed with small bunch of tight leather strings is not sexually oriented, then my fluffy toy bear is adultoriented maybe ? :) i guess rosity have some agreement to bypass paypal TOS. Maybe TOS of paypal only applies to poor individuals, not firms...

millman: No problem. I just wanted to make sure people didn't miss the message - PAYPAL ARE THIEVES! They have 3 accounts on file for me - a checking account (which I closed), another checking account (which has at the most $5 in it and we never use it, just haven't gotten around to closing it, but we should) and the credit card that they just asked me to update - closed that account as well. Just because I closed my accounts, I don't feel any LESS vunerable. Obviously, from what I've seen at the sites linked to above, they can get away with alot and not be held accountable. It's also kind of curious that at the same time this was happening, someone had fradulently charged about $600. on my debit card (also available at the time to PayPal). Luckily the merchant made note that I live in NY and the shipping address was Florida. He called me to verify the purchase and of course I told him I did NOT make nor authorize the purchase.

actually most likely any poser store will be hit sooner or later. Others online shops have been

I've been a Paypal user for quite some time (years) and never had a problem with them. But reading this prompted me to do some surfing. There seem to be quite a few sites and forums dedicated to warning people about Paypal transactions that have gone bad, including Ebay's own forum (who own Paypal).
This has prompted me to head out tomorrow and start a new account for checking/savings and leave the existing account for Paypal-only transactions. At least if a customer makes a fraudulent transaction, a chargeback or claims non-receipt of goods it won't affect my personal financial situation.
Thanks for the warnings, and exotica - love your site and your art. Keep up the great work. =)

Ben: Thanks for the compliments. :)

Just curious, does anyone know which subset of laws that paypal would be required to operate under?

So, how does someone get their account UNfrozen? Do you have to actually sue them, or what? bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

That article about the lawsuit is almost 2 years old, I wonder what the outcome was. So if not PP, then what merchants do you guys recommend or have experience with?

Attached Link: http://paypalsucks.com/

This site offers alot of information. I haven't read all of it but I do believe that they try to give some information about dealing with PP. It does seem, however, that one would actually have to sue them to get their attention.

This site also offers some alternatives to PP for people who do business online and want to be able to accept credit cards.

These news are alarming. PayPal seemed to be a fine option to easily transfer money from e.g. Renderosity without paying a lot of bank fees for the money transaction. Especially to Europe this can be quite expensive. Recently PayPal stated that they will open a separate company for the European Community by end of January in Great Britain. They say this will help to better serve the customers and solve problems locally. This certainly involves lawsuits. Wonder which way they will go. At least I will remove my credit card information. Thanks for the information.

PayPal's phone number can be found on their web site. Go to About Us/Contact Us/Customer Support Enquiries/Help by Phone/Service center. I'd post the link but I think it includes my account details. So log in to your account and follow those links. Anyway the number is:-

888 221 1161

It is possible to get your account reactivated but only after a day spent on the phone and complying with their wishes. For me little additions were required on the page http://www.philc.net/utility1.htm A more tangible outcome is that I have opened a merchant account and will very shortly be able to accept credit cards on my site directly.

Cheers for the heads up, I have a PayPal account and have onl really used it to keep my LiveJournal subscription going, also being UK based I've been watching with interest the changes being made. One thing I'm just off to do is remove any and all credit card/debit card details for the time being. This is to say the least a little disconcerting.

Attached Link: lawsuit update

The lawsuits are still moving through the courts. (Justice is glacial here in the U.S.) PayPalSucks.com had an update posted from August 2003, which really isn't that long as these things go.

I have had no problems with PayPal. It has been fast, neat, efficient, and provided receipts. It throws Money Market dividends into the account. Since I no longer have credit cards, it is the only way that I can make online purchases. I suspect that the name "exotica" was also a deciding factor... especially if the other one IS a porn site. Carolly, keeping her account

Phil, did they make you put "fig leaves" over the mesh "naughy bits"? Were those the changes they demanded?

yes

ROFL! I can't believe it. And they let you get away with a naked UV map? Well, Exotica, I guess you know what you have to do. (Hey, this could be a hot new product for the MP. "PayPal-Friendly" conforming fig leaves. ;-)

I can't believe that "vintage pinups" are okay but naked polygons are a problem.... Well, I guess I won't be putting my slightly-more-adult-oriented web design templates online any time soon, or I'll be switching to Kagi for the online transactions directly through the website... I mean, a nipple might show or something. I still need to use PayPal for some things, unfortunately. I'm glad this thread has come up, though. It made me go back and look at that Kagi account (which I haven't done in ages). ;) It's also clarified my question (which PayPal never answered). I can't possibly afford to spend a day on the phone with them. Phone calls from Australia to California are pretty damned pricey. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

ROFL. Thanks Phil but I'd rather not waste anymore of my time. I'm not about to give them another red cent. I could care less about the NAME of my website. I pointed out the distinction, that it was NOT the same site nor a porn site and that it didn't even have "real" people on it but rather 3D models. They can take their fig leaves and put them where the sun doesn't shine. If anyone wants to continue doing business with them, that's up to them, however, one is entitled to know the facts and about how some people are treated. Oh, and as far as a merchant account, it was. It was a merchant account from an old website I had, which, mind you, also had naked Vicki in a temple with a sword.

Oh, and let me just add...their phone number is next to impossible to locate and why should I have to waste my time and money calling when this could simply be handled by email, by someone with half a brain in their head. Shove it PayPal!

Oh, and I almost forgot...where are all of the fig leaves on Rosity's naked 3D models? One click in the MP will give anyone more than an eyeful.

Their response... "We're working diligently, blah, blah, blah...

Hypocrites.

I don't understand the sudden prudery. The net being what it is, porn must have been a sizable portion of their business. Not to mention other sites that occasionally feature nudity. I remember reading last year that the famous "JenniCam" site was shutting down, because of PayPal's new TOS. They must have made a lot of money off of her. Seems like they are opening the door for other pay systems that won't be so anal.

PhilC, you are the only reason that I have a paypal account, and now that you will be accepting credit cards, it will be no longer!!!!

well, its VISA that's behind the whole Paypal problems with adult sites, believe it or not. VISA has been on a rampage about adult sites for a while. Rather than lose their VISA processing abilities, Paypal decided to crack down on adult sites. No American third party billing system can accept VISA for adult site payment. (and its starting to creep over to Europe as well) VISA wants you to pay for your own merchant account, which is hard to get and pricey to boot. It has everything to do with money and nothing to do with prudery, at least in Paypal's case.

Interesting. Just Visa, and not Mastercard? And Visa will allow sites to open merchant accounts and sell adult stuff that way? So, theoretically, Rosity would be in violation if it sold me an anatomically correct genital prop via PayPal, but not if I charged it to my Visa card directly?

Attached Link: http://www.forbes.com/2003/05/01/cz_sl_0501porn.html

yep, thats right. Just Visa. I didnt make the policy, I'm just the messenger. ;)

Thanks for the link. That explains why I had such a problem with iBill awhile back. I had used it to subscribe to an art site that was basically using it to pay bandwidth charges, as well as keep minors out. (Though the material on the site was less "adult" than you can see at Rotica in the free section, and mostly less than you see here at Rosity even.) I'd subscribed for several years, then all of a sudden, iBill charged my card, but I couldn't get access. And the site owner couldn't fix it. Did a chargeback, of course, and avoided iBill like the plague ever after. I heard later that the problem was due to changes in the rules regarding "adult" web sites.

Thanks for the warning Exotica. I just closed my PayPal account. I'd been considering doing so since Ebay gave my phone number to a seller who ripped me off. I don't like the way these two partner companies do business.

This is all very interesting and very disturbing. Getting your own indivudual merchant bank isn't always that easy. Especially in NY, there are specifications that also have to be met and if you don't meet them, you are out of luck. Exotica I am sorry for your situation and do feel for your anxiety. I am also thankful to you bringing this topic to our attention. Unfortunately for us, PayPal is what we have to use right now, although we do offer checks or money orders, which come in handy, cause you still all get your orders filled after you contact us, it is us that is taking the risk waiting to see if a check clears, but that is the risk we are willing to take. But again I have to state that we have not had any problems with Paypal, that is not to say others have not. Just personally we have not. They have done right by us, but I do hear all of your concerns. Again, Exotica thank you for alerting all this to us...it is a good thing to review situtaions all the time. Sharen

Hmmm. eBay now owns Paypal. eBay has a massive "Adult" section with REAL porn on VHS, DVD, magazines, toys, and so forth. Does this mean that eBay has to close this section to adhere to its own Draconian rules? Hmmm... I abhor quoting the Bible, but... "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..." ;) Or better yet (and much more appropo)... Mat 7:3-5 (Jer) "Why do you observe the splinter in you brother's eye and never notice the plank in your own? How dare you say to your brother, 'Let me take the splinter out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own? Hypocrite! Take the plank out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother's eye." P.S.: And I'm an atheist. :)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

you probably won't ever have a problem on your site, Sharen. Most people don't. Its just important not to break the adult rules on Paypal, or this kind of thing happens. I just wanted to clarify its not Paypal, its a much bigger problem with VISA cracking down on sites with adult content. It is related to the high chargebacks the adult sites get. the problem is... its hard for a clerk to know a difference between an adult site and a poser site that's just doing a little fun sexy images and offering a few textures/models for sale. The idiots making the decisions about the TOS are only following the rule to the letter, not thinking about why the rule was imposed. Chargebacks are not a huge problem on most of the Poser sites that I'm aware of, not like it is with adult subscription sites. But the rules don't take the difference into account.

Ebay, the seller and the buyer determine how funds are transferred, you don't use your VISA there unless the seller has a merchant account or Paypal. So Ebay can do those things. When did Ebay start allowing adult items again, anyway... I remember they were banned for a while. I've been out of the loop on Ebay, I don't use it.

But they OWN Paypal! Whether or not this process is being spurred by VISA is inconsequential. Paypal abides (by freezing suspect accounts). eBay owns Paypal. eBay must abide. Otherwise they are being hypocritical - i.e. using a double standard. Yes, they have a "Mature Audiences" section under "Everything Else" with 60000+ items.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I had one problem using them and that was it for me. All my info for a $2.00 purchase. That's why I send PhilC Money Orders!

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

VISA is totally why this is going on... but go on ranting about nonsense anyway. I'm not defending Paypal. I'm just noting that the situations with IBill and countless other third party processors aren't any different. So if you think the grass is greener with a different third party billing system, think again. :/ If they take VISA, expect this problem at some point.

Visa may be why the crackdown on "adult" sites is happening, but PayPal is why accounts get frozen for no reason and their money kept indefinitely. Banks, at least in the U.S., are regulated by federal law. PayPal isn't. People think of PayPal as being like a bank, but it isn't one. Something to keep in mind.

pff it just sux.. i am fed up wih this rampaging puritanismo-capitalism madness :( how it can apply to foreign coutnries ? i mean, here we are not under the rule of USA governemetn so far (or somone lied me...) yet i have a visa... how can it works ? also i intended to order adult movies on asiatic webstores i spotted, i guess that now, half the good sites lies in ruin ! 750$/ to be allowed to sell bunch of naked skins ? it is insane. Sure it is the return of black market, mano a mano deals, and paper money.. what a regression. It souns liek the time of prohibition but on adult things, not alcoohol now i cannto say how all the story makes me sick, i was even unaware before this thread, the world had gone nut, don't wanna live in this one... where is the shuttle for space ? could not talk anymore withou using foul words. anyway a little joke bfore leaving: "Puritanism is the haunting fear that SOMEONE, somewhere, MIGHT be happy !"

Attached Link: http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/5810401.htm

I agree with that, Randy. I'm just talking about getting closed for having adult content... that's what happened to Exotica so I wanted to bring some facts (imagine that... facts...) to the thread. Link talks about how Ebay stopped taking Paypal payments. Its not the same thing... Ebay doesn't process payment for adult items. It doesn't matter if they are owned by the same people, they are different businesses and operate under different rules. Its as stupid as expecting Animotions and *Rotica to operate under the same TOS because Diane owns both the sites.

Nonsense... Stupid... ??? Whether or not this is spurred by VISA, (comma) PAYPAL is freezing accounts because sites are breaking their TOS. Verstand? Wakarimashitaka? Comprendo? Unless I'm mistaken (being both a long time eBay user and Paypal member), eBay accepts Paypal payments for items in auctions (as well as VISA credit card payments) - unless it has changed this policy within the past couple of months, since I last used Paypal on my eBay auctions. If eBay members sell items that are against Paypal's TOS and accept Paypal (yes, or VISA) as payment, then those items must be removed in order to keep with Paypal's TOS. 60,000+ items says otherwise. Oh, and I explicitly say VISA as an appropriate form of payment for explicitly adult material on eBay. How is eBay exempt from this?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Oh, and it's over 82000 items. ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Hmmm. If I understand the articles bijouchat posted correctly, it's capitalism, not puritanism, that's to blame. Adult sites have a high number of chargebacks. When the porn site charge shows up on the bill, the husband claims it must be a mistake, to deflect his wife's ire. And Visa has to eat the loss. That's the reason they are cracking down on adult sites. And eBay is now not allowing PayPal to be used to purchase adult items, even on their own site. I would guess that means that will apply to Rosity, too, eventually. If you want to buy a nekkid Vicky texture, you won't be able to use PayPal. But that still doesn't excuse PayPal's shenananigans. They sound like an Enron in the making.

and I wondered why I just give stuff away..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

AMEX did the same thing about 2-3 years ago. At the time, the actions of American Express caused a bit of a stir. And, yes, the problem centered around chargebacks to adult sites. Looks like VISA is following the example of American Express........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Attached Link: http://www.stormpay.com/

As a side note, you can set your paypal account to transfer any funds automatically EVERY day. Thats how we have our set up :) There is Stormpay as a somewhat useful alternative.

SAMS3D I'm in the same boat as you. Over 6 years of Paypal usage and no issues. But I never actually have money sitting in it, I just use it to pay stuff.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

"Adult sites have a high number of chargebacks. When the porn site charge shows up on the bill, the husband claims it must be a mistake, to deflect his wife's ire. And Visa has to eat the loss. That's the reason they are cracking down on adult sites." What's that got to do with PhilC's naked meshes that don't even have genitals, though? bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

......has no one just called the cops and got them done for fraud? no 'taking you to court' crap. just plain called the cops. tis fraud, and I believe the US has a Computers and Misuse act the same as the UK's?

Bonni, I'd love to know if that's PayPal's or Visa's definition of porn. :-) I mean, I know they have to draw the line somewhere, but really! Khai, PayPal actually takes your money in the guise of protecting you from fraud. They claim they are freezing your account because of suspected fraud or something like that. What are the cops going to do then? And you'd have to call the FBI, not the cops, because in most cases, it's outside the local jurisdiction. However, if you read the PayPalSucks.com site, they do say that hiring a lawyer is the best way to get your money back. Unfortunately, in most cases that costs more than PayPal took from you to begin with.

Thank you Randy for the explanations. And I'd agree that it's capitalism as well. Still, how does this transfer to sites with questionably adult content and especially to 3D models? I could see it if it were www.poserhotwomanactionrenders.com, but this is getting ridiculous. ;) Additionally, bijouchat's hypothesis doesn't totally jive. If it's really VISA prompting these actions, then why does eBay accept VISA payments for outright pornography? They do, I checked a dozen of the Mature Audiences auctions (T&A images and explicit descriptions) and they accept VISA for payment. Very strange. Since I don't sell porn on eBay, I wouldn't know about the non-use of Paypal restriction there. :) Nonetheless, the entire affair that started this smacks of censorship without representation. They neither warn, justify, nor allow a fair response. How obstentatiously rude and Draconian can it get?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Just one other note... Who would buy sex toys on eBay? EEEUUUUWWWW! Who knows where they've been!? shudder ;-P bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

You can use Visa to buy porn (including on eBay), but not PayPal. Strange, isn't it? I guess because it's so much harder to get a Visa merchant account, with more hoops to jump through, not to mention higher fees, that they're more willing to take the risk of "adult" transactions than with "third party" billers like PayPal. That's the difference. That's why I think eventually we'll be able to buy some items with PayPal here at Rosity, while some items will be credit cards only.

' And you'd have to call the FBI, not the cops, because in most cases, it's outside the local jurisdiction. However, if you read the PayPalSucks.com site, they do say that hiring a lawyer is the best way to get your money back. Unfortunately, in most cases that costs more than PayPal took from you to begin with.' strange.. here in the UK, if a company does that to a person, then under the Computers and Misuse Act and the credit and consumers act, they get taken to court. no matter if they are in the UK or not (ever hear of extradition treaties). seems that the legal system is failing you all. call the FBI instead of whining. use the LAW. it's what it's there for!

Unfortunately, the FBI is too busy chasing terrorists these days. When they aren't investigating presidential sex lives, that is. :-P They aren't going to make a federal case out of this. Not unless Congress gets involved.

Regarding Ebay I can add my 2 cents here. I live in Austria, south of Germany. Our mother tongue is also German. There is an Austrian Ebay and I wanted to sell an old computer game (Star Wars - Dark Forces). Ebay stopped that, because this item is only allowed to be sold to people over 16 years according to German law, and they decided not to deal with such items, because they cannot check the age of the buyer. I asked them, why this should concern me, because there is not such a law in Austria and I wanted to sell it to someone in Austria. They behaved very stupid and offered me to close my account. I think it is a principle problem, that there is no internet law, but only national laws, depending where the main company resides. As US companies rule a lot of the business (credit cards, PayPal, Ebay,...) I wonder, if there will ever be an special internet closed for US citizens. US companies and law cannot dictate the internet forever.

If it's really VISA prompting these actions, then why does eBay accept VISA payments for outright pornography?

As I understand the issue, the chargebacks only concern "intangibles" - items such as website memberships.

Payments for actual hard "adult" merchandise - i.e. DVD's, magazines, videotapes - aren't involved.

Perhaps 3D meshes are considered to be "hard" merchandise, and not intangibles.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

You can still buy adult web site memberships with Visa. Just not with PayPal. I think the difference is the higher fees and such they charge for Visa merchant accounts. They're more willing to take on the risk of chargebacks. IOW, the very thing we like about PayPal - that it's a way for the "little guy" to accept credit card payments - is what Visa doesn't like. They don't make enough money off PayPal transactions to make it worth their while, given the risk.

When AMEX ruled out adult internet charges, this action ONLY excluded "intangibles". AMEX still allowed the on-line purchase of "adult" merchandise - it just had to be "real" merchandise.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

AMEX also indicated that VISA was "welcome to" the $3B/yr (at that time) adult website business...... The chargebacks must have been a HUGE problem for AMEX to walk away from that kind of money.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Actually, that makes more sense to me than the way Visa's going about it. Deciding whether or not something is "intangible" seems like it would be a lot easier than deciding whether or not it's "adult." Visa's rules are just silly. Pinups are only okay if they're "vintage" -- at least 10 years old? But PhilC's naked mesh is verboten? Bizarre.

This chargeback thing is also why DAZ cannot take credit cards for the Platinum Club 1 year membership??? Hmm...

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

There seem to be two separate situations here, but they're being mistakenly blended into one. The no-no on 'internet porn' by credit card companies was a specific resonse by visa, amex, et al to combat fly-by-night porn sites making off with membership monies. What would happen was this. A porn site would open up advertising yearly membership (payable by credit card). They would show initial content, promise weekly updates, and after the first month or two, when they'd taken in a few thousand membership fee payments, they would vanish into the night, taking the loot with them. The members, naturally, would kick up merry hell with visa, and halt the payments. This became so common that the credit card companies decided to levy huge cash deposits from ALL internet sites running yearly membership schemes. Enter DAZ into the picture. DAZ were being told by visa that if they wanted to continue to run the Platinum Club and accept the payments by c/c, they would have to pay visa a deposit of X (I heard figures of $500,000 being bandied around). DAZ told then to shove it and that's why they introduced the monthly payment scheme and/or money orders and what-not for the yearly payments. Anything except c/c. But.... none of this has anything to do with PayPal freezing people's accounts arbitarily. There MAY be a connection with Exotica's situation, but PayPal seems to have it's own methods of making money which have very little to do with standard business practice. For example, PP charges the SAME fees to people with non credit card accounts, as those WITH c/c. If you use a c/c, visa or whoever levies a charge from PP, which they in turn, pass on to you. Non c/c accounts are charged EXACTLY the same fees, despite the fact that there's no fee to charge. Then there's the '180 days' scam. PP seems to freeze a percentage of accounts almost at random, usually for 'suspicious activities'. Some of these accounts are unfrozen (again at random) after complaints, but most are kept frozen for 180 days. What happens to your money during that time? Good question. PayPal are earning interest on it, that's what happens. It may not be much on an account of $20, but for a company doing in excess of $16 million a DAY in transactions, the percentage of frozen accounts and the amounts involved must be pretty considerable. Of course, none of this has actually been proved yet in a court of law, otherwise the PayPal staff would all be in orange jumpsuits. But if even 1% of the stories posted are true, then the PP execs deserve to be in jail. mac

Attached Link: http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,36608,00.html

Regardless of the facts surrounding the Paypal situation - whether it is motivated by chargebacks, or if Paypal's actions represent an outright scam -- here's what the situation was with AMEX.

The central issue had to do with "disputed transactions". I.E. - chargebacks.

Purely a money issue.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Apparently, VISA is struggling with the same issue.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

And, yes, fraud is a major part of the problem.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

First of all...my site is NOT A PORN SITE!!!! I had a button under a plant prop set and pose set for crying out loud! Secondly, the images I have in my gallery are pretty tame if you ask me. If there is any nudity, it's women's - errr make that a 3D MODEL's - breasts, nothing below the waist. I have 1 (2 at most) image in the entire gallery that shows full nudity. These ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE! Someone needs to get their head out of their ass. Third...why the hell is Renderosity allowed to sell everything and anything through PayPal. If someone is going to "label" sites as porn sites I'd much quicker label Rosity as one before I'd label mine as such. I think most people would agree. One example tells it all - the genital props. Are these not "adult content"? Not to mention that PayPal specifically states: "Items not falling under this category and which are therefore not permitted include items which are intended for use in a sexual setting (such as "bondage" and "fetish" items), items which display sexual activity or portray human genitalia in a "life-like" or realistic fashion, and vibrators intended for use in sexual activity (as opposed to ordinary massagers)." Don't even try to tell me that PayPal doesn't know about Renderosity and the like. I don't give a crap if it's Visa or PayPal - PayPal is STEALING money! That lawsuit linked to above - the last update was December 2003 - last month. I have recently gotten into collecting books. I have had a look around on eBay. Although I didn't look at any "adult" stuff, I believe it's there and I wouldn't doubt for a minute that people are buying it with PayPal!! Nearly every merchant I looked at ONLY accepts PayPal! "...call the FBI instead of whining. use the LAW. it's what it's there for!" I'm not whining. I'm telling people MY story. You can choose to believe or not believe what's on the other sites but I've posted my actual email exchanges with PayPal. I'm not about to hire a lawyer to get them to reinstate my account when I refuse to give them another red cent. That would be a pretty stupid thing to do. And just for the record, I could care less who's behind it. I could care less if PayPal allows "adult" sites to offer PayPal. The point is that they are thieves. And they are hypocrites. The very fact that Renderosity accepts PayPal should tell you at least that much. Oh, and let me add that in the 3 years I had my PayPal account, I conducted only about 10-15 transactions - only 5 involved me receiving any money and that was under the name of my old website. It says right on your account whether you're verified or not and how many transactions you have received money for - mine says "Verified (5)" So folks, if it ain't about porn - no porn on my site - and it ain't about money - they barely made enough off of me to buy a box of donuts - then it seems to me to be a case of good old fashioned FRAUD & THIEVERY!

I can't speak to the Paypal situation -- other than to say that I've never personally had a problem with them. But, that doesn't negate anyone else's complaints about Paypal. I don't plan to give PP my bank account info.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I think they just haven't caught up with Renderosity yet. Phil was made to put fig leaves over his nude polygons. If even eBay - PayPal's owner - isn't allowed to sell adult material via PayPal, no one will be allowed to. It's just a matter of time.

Ok, well, maybe they haven't caught up with Renderosity yet, maybe but not bloody likely! I have a similar thread going on in the merchant's forum and not a single word has been written by Renderosity staff/admin even when specifically addressed. Now I find out that Renderotica accepts PayPal! They're either very, very stupid or very, very sneaky. Please note that I have had my PayPal business account for 3 years. ONE DAY AFTER I put up a PayPal logo my account gets frozen....and, well, you all know the rest. Now consider the fact that nowhere on either Renderosity or Renderotica is PayPal advertised as being an acceptable form of payment UNTIL you get at the checkout! Think about that for a bit.... Meanwhile, I'm getting on the phone with my local news station and then hunting down the phone number or email address for "60 Minutes". They may be very, very interested in what all has been discovered here today.

ooho come on, they spotted your dangerous pornterrorist website becaue of the huge threat it presented to our world, but they would "miss" somethign as big and flashy as renderosity ? no, believe me dude, they sure know what renderosity is doing.. the key word here is "hyppocrisy".. when you confront them to their own shortcomings, failign logic and lies, they threaen or punish you even harder. That is the mark that admit hyppocrisy when it fails to justify itself :) of by the way, you even can get interest in less than 180 days. Here in my country the national service provider for posta mail and public bank account do this every day. They hold our money a bit, maybe 1 week or two, but if you gather all the time they do it and the sums involved, they put us into problemes (sometime you have a short "money time schedule"), but they slowly CREATE money for them ou of thin air/magic, using ours to do so... it is common method and abuse and you cannot do anything against that, except putting your savings in your blanket !

this problem has been happening since before visa instituted their policies. Paypal has been doing this since they opened. Visa only recently (within the last year) adopted their policies.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to put two and two together. I was honest and listed my site in their shops directory. Other people (the little guys, like me) get away with it by purposely NOT listing their sites. The big places like Renderosity & Renderotica pass on some hefty fees for the "priveledge" of doing business with them. All of the other stuff - the "freezing" of accounts, earning interest on other people's money (they say they do this right in their TOS folks), the hipocracy, discrimination, etc., etc., ...just icing on the cake. They're criminals imo. I hope this class action suit catches up with them.

Thanks for all the warnings!! I just closed my account - I had questions regarding their recent practices one of which being they told me I couldn't use my CC anymore and that I would HAVE to give them my bank account information. Well if my CC company says I can charge and they do then there is no reason for them to say I can't. This was IMHO suspicious and after reading all of this enough to say ahhhh buh bye now...............

....Now Bring Me That Horizon....
Send IM | Gallery

Hm... since you all seem well informed on the topic, what about sites "paypal-like" ? Any input on 2CheckOut.com ? I personally never use sites like that. I already have given up several subscriptions i was interested in just because the only way to get it was through PayPal (i am ethically against this "third party system"). Now i'm very interested in a site using only 2CheckOut.com. I have no idea on how that company works. So i'd appreciate if some of you could give me first hand information on it. Thanks in advance

Hi Merlin I have used that system for a couple of things and have had no trouble with it and I haven't heard anything bad through the grapevine. I believe they work like PP but I am not 100% sure. Hope this little bit of feedback helps.

....Now Bring Me That Horizon....
Send IM | Gallery

A caution here, there are scams that are targetting paypal, mostly because it's so easy to do. If you get an email request supposedly from paypal, check the header, the full header. If the "From" addy has what looks like paypal, but then has another string of symbols and numbers behind it, paypal had nothing to do with it, it came from a scam. The legitimate paypal addy is there, but code inserted to block it, and redirect to the second half of the addy which is only someone wanting your card and/or bank account numbers. ONe other way to tell if it's legit, put your cursor over the logo. Legitimate will be generated in html, the scams use a graphic file. If the balloon says it's a graphic, it's a scam.

Why go through all of that trouble? When I "supposedly" receive an email from Paypal, first thing is to see what it says. Any requests for personal account information are bogus scam-sucking ... well, I won't go any further. Paypal, like eBay and many other legit sites dealing with money, will NEVER ask you for this information in a way that could be compromising, like by email. These are filed in the bit-bucket. Otherwise, when the scam is good, I go directly to the REAL Paypal and check out the situation directly myself. NEVER trust emails. NEVER open attachments. ALWAYS save expected attachments and open with the appropriate application.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I am a PayPal user and never had a problem, but now I don't know. I don't really know any other payment method without loosig 1/3 of money, I am in Italy and it is a problem.

Attached Link: http://paypalsucks.com/options.shtml

sandra, I'm in italy too, but I use a credit card when I have to buy online. If you can't do that, see the links for other companies who offer services like PayPal's. mac

Exotica wrote:

{ Ok, well, maybe they haven't caught up with Renderosity yet, maybe but not bloody likely! I have a similar thread going on in the merchant's forum and not a single word has been written by Renderosity staff/admin even when specifically addressed. Now I find out that Renderotica accepts PayPal! They're either very, very stupid or very, very sneaky.}

Renderotica does NOT accept PayPal for any items in our store. We never have and we won't because of their rules.

PayPal states in their Additional User Agreement for Premier and Business Accounts:

{#6. Reserve Account in Case of Closure. If you or PayPal close your account, PayPal may retain a portion of any funds it holds in custody for you, based on your transaction history, as a reserve to the extent reasonable to protect PayPal against the risk of future reversals of transactions occurring prior to such closure. PayPal will pay you the balance of any such reserve 180 days after closure. }

This is common practice for merchant accounts. Believe me, I know from having dealt with several of them. Consumers have 6 months to file a chargeback on credit card purchases, so the merchant provider does this to protect themselves. If you disappear and there's a chargeback, they have to pay it. Do I like this rule? Not at all. But if you want a merchant account, you deal with it.

Do I think PayPal is being ridiculous in this case? Yes, I do. Do I think you will get anywhere with them? Probably not. It's like someone said. They aren't looking at individuals. They are blindly assessing risk, just like insurance companies do. It's unfortunate. And it isn't really true that adult businesses in general have higher chargeback rates. (In fact, I would bet good money that Renderotica's chargeback rate is significantly lower than Renderosity's or DAZ's.) However, by giving merchant accounts to fly-by-night webcam businesses who do tend to have high chargeback rates, they have set up a situation where all "adult" businesses have suddenly been painted with the same brush.

BTW, any online transaction for digital goods is considered a higher risk than a transaction for shippable hardgoods because you have no way of proving that the owner of the card is the one who actually received the merchandise. That's why many companies will not ship to an address that is different than the billing address on your card. Diane

I'm still waiting for one of the micropayment groups to take off effectively. Paypal's methodology is not to my taste, but, as Diane noted above, is clearly stated and in line with common business practice. The catch, of course, is that I'm one of theose people who DOES read all that gobbledegook -- I always do, anytime I spend money and have to sign something or have someone else transact it for me. Right now I still have a C2it account, but it's so little used it's worthless. There are two that are currently operating that do interest me, however, and I think I will do more research on them and post the appropriate information. Paypal -- particularly since the buyout -- is too great a risk to me personally for conducting transactions. Now, I should note that my husband has an account, and has no problems with it. One of my kids does, as well. I don't. Nor will I. It's just too damned scary, to be perfectly honest. Or, more precisely: I do not feel that I can trust this financial services company which is totally unregulated and is not bound to the rules and practices of a regular financial services company to do business on my behalf. paypal is not a bank, not a savings and loan, and is not licensed as such. They are not subject to any of the standard accounting rules, regulations, and laws that govern everyone else who handles money. From a business standpoint, I just can't get myself past that one. Sorta leaves me feeling like I'm flapping inthe wind. Which is not to say they are necessarly bad people, just that I don't trust them. :)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Diane: Someone had posted that Renderotica accepts PayPal. If not, good for you! ynsaen: I guess it is wise to read "the fine print" but then again I didn't think I had anything to worry about seeing as I had the business account for 3 years. In any case, I thought it best to let people, like me, know exactly what the risk is with doing business with PayPal. I was lucky that I didn't have any money in the account when they froze it. In the entire three years that I had the account, I received funds only 5 times so I highly doubt "I" owe them anything even if someone does do a chargeback. Beware folks, beware.

never use PayPal, very happy with me creditcard... but but bankers who wanna be preachers.... stuff it I would say.

FYI: The reason a lot of companies will not accept Visa for Annual Fees is due to the Terms of Service for when the money can be charged by both Vis and Master Card. DAZ's PC might fall into one of those things that they would have to hold the funds in an escrow account and only withdraaw for each installment. I have ran into this with some ISP's in the past. It creates cashflow issues and accounting headaches for the Vendor. Discover is a different animal, therefore different rules. ratscloset

ratscloset
aka John