With all the recent outcry about nudity and what is appropriate and what is not, I was suprised and dismayed when I stumbled across this image in the gallery. It is called the Black Pope and is about offensive as you can get. Not so much the image itself but the description that goes with it. Besides being a hatefill anti catholic message, it is also really bad history or rather no real historical facts just pseudo history and lies. Renderosity has rules against Nazis, Nudity, but what about this kind of thing? I realized that Art is Art and Free speech, but at least we could hope that bigots could be educated enough to have their facts straight....

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=596344&Start=1&Sectionid=0&filter_genre_id=0&Form.Se

Link porvided. No comment, personally.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Wow, that's a lot of ignorance in one place. Illuminati was started by Gallileo. Masonry is not evil. In fact, Masons are very nice and do a lot of good charity work. I've also found them to be helpful and dependable. My best friend's father is a Mason. So was the Good Samaritan who helped me when my car got a flat tire and I was having trouble just getting my mother out of the vehicle, much less the tire changed. Ku Klux Klan was formed by a bunch of former plantation owners/crackers. And that's just a quick smattering near the beginning. I understand why it's offensive, but I don't think it needs to be. The high crackpot factor speaks pretty nicely for itself.

Interesting artist. His images are striking, but his beliefs are...unusual. Among other things, he seems to think all white people are descended from a reptile god, and now control the central banks of the world. And the American presidency. If he really believes the things he writes below his gallery images...

I don't think that historically inaccurate conspiracy theories are agaisnt the TOS, but who knows... FNORD. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Let's see, the Catholic Church is secretly in league with the Masons, the Illuminati, Communism, the Klan, Jews, Nazis, history professors, and Captain Kangaroo. So, who are they trying to control? Lordy, where to begin. If the Masons are a secret society of the Church, why would the Church "spread the rumor that Lincoln was a Mason"? And since Mormonism spun out of Masonry (sort of), is the LDS Church part of the Jesuit conspiracy? The whole thing is not so much hateful as loony. And frankly, I don't find the image especially compelling, for those who are about to invoke the sacred right of ART to say, show, and imply anything it wants, as long as the result is "beyooty-ful." Once you get past the shock elements of Pope/fire/etc., it's no more beautiful than the average page of a comic book. If it were a similarly executed picture glorifying the Pope with a list below of the Church's "good works," I doubt if anyone would have paid much attention. M

Who cares? Why care? Disagree with it? Move one. Does it shake the foundation of your own beliefs? You must not be much of a believer. Is it incorrect? Then let the fool babble. Is it correct? Do what you will with the info. One thing though...suggesting something be deleted because someone disagrees with the "message" smacks of censorship and once you start down that path, where will the line be drawn? Might as well pull on the annimated horse, lmackenzie (sp?) because we've been down this road before. Doc Legume posted stuff with stronger messages and his RARELY were deleted. So, don't like it? Move on (like I did). I don't get much into religion anyway so other than this message (more about censorship than the actual image), I shrugged my shoulders.

FNORD indeed! Discordia obviously rules in some concepts. I very much like the image but wonder at the content of the written statement. If one of my students had turned in an essay such as that without legitimate documentation I am afraid I would have been forced to give it extremely low marks. As we say in research: document, document, document, then double-check the documentation.

The issue of whether to censor is a bit complicated, though if I had to vote, I wouldn't vote to take the thing down. The complication is that people are struggling to understand the logic and worldview, if you like, of the TOS, and when something like this is allowed, they wonder why. The fact is, there is no logic or worldview in the TOS; it merely attempts to codify the whims of the PTB. The hate-mongering in the post (image and text) is so abstract that it doesn't strike me as deserving censorship, unless it violates the TOS. Personally, I don't believe in censorship, in the sense that it involves a higher authority which claims to be acting in my behalf. I do believe, strongly, in exercising personal responsibility. It is not "censorship" for a video game seller to refuse to stock Doom, GTA, or Custer's Revenge. He has a right to sell what he pleases; he is not obliged to pander to the LCD. It is not censorship for a publishing house to refuse to publish Mein Kampf or American Psycho, no more than it is censorship for me to refuse to buy them. And if I urge others not to buy or sell them, that is not censorship, either. If individuals took responsibility for these things, censorship would be superfluous. And when the horse is dead, so will our consciences be. M

Someone is anti-catholic? Oh boo freakin' hoo.

I can't make sense of what this guy writes. Ist of all the Klan Hate Jews and Catolics. This is a Fact, not some story. So it's just too bad that person does not have his facts right. Or is this suppose to be satrie????

Love is Grandchildren.

It's a great image. Incredible lighting. :D

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

I thought the gallery is a place to post pictures, not a soapbox for your beliefs. Marque

I thought the gallery is a place to post pictures, >> not a soapbox for your beliefs. Yes!! Good point. If the image were posted without the BS, it would be a different image. The BS is a coerced interpretation of the image.

The image is great. I didn't read the text entirely, because it was just to confusing. I search my source of information very carefully and don't believe everything that's written down. I say, let him have his opinion, I have mine. On the other hand strange things happen in the US. I heard in a certain state teachers are no longer allowed to teach about Darwin's theory? Hmmmmmm

let him have his opinion, I have mine. A presentation of unsupported "facts" intended to vilify is not an "opinion." Let's get our terms straight.

the Ku Klux Klan was started in the 1870's by, among others, Nathan Bedford Forrest, a slave dealer, civil war officer, and thoroughly unpleasant individual. It was later made illegal under the occupation and Reconstruction. Why they made it legal, I dunno..As for LDS, I'm unfamiliar with any ties to the Masons..though I've heard more than one theory tie Jack the Ripper to them..:|
Sounds like the pic in general could be trolling; trying to get a rise out of Catholics in general.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

"On the other hand strange things happen in the US. I heard in a certain state teachers are no longer allowed to teach about Darwin's theory? Hmmmmmm"

Oh I believe they can teach it, but as a theory and not as absolute fact. :)

I'm afraid I have to agree with the majority. It isn't against the TOS to not know what you're talking about. The image itself was nice.

...... Kendra

I'm wondering if the write-up itself wasn't part of the "art." The write-up & image combination has certainly had a strong impact - how many other postings this week have had this much attention?

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

We have all kinds of weirdness going on in our world and we're worried about this? jeeeeeeezzzzzzzz

And don't forget the tie with Elvis and the aliens and the mole men from middle Earth..... Why take this as an insult to Catholics? Its more of a laugh than anything.

His quote on his artist's page says it all: " As far as I'm concerned, if something is so complicated that you can't explain it in 10 seconds, then it's probably not worth knowing anyway" How can this guy purport to know anything about anything? And I agree about the soapbox thing. How many lines of text do you get for a pic in the gallery? I don't have a gallery but I might start one if I can spew as much mindless blather I care to under each pic.

Some people seems to see global conspirations eveywhere. This guy "Seneca" is obviously one of them. He might be or he might be not right, we will never know. However, think he can have his own opinion. At least he wrote a nice history, even if it is sci-fi in my opinion.

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If you go to a gallery opening you are able to pick up a program explaining the artist intention. You may even be able to talk to the artist and ask them questions about their art. This place is not a brick and morter art gallery but a virtual one so I think that it would behoove an artist to explain him or herself about their work since we can not talk to them in person. Most art real or not is a sopabox. We express ourselves in many differnt forms. ie. 2d, 3d, some in 1d.. If this was in the written word gallery would anyone have noticed? What if this artist would have posted the pic and just put ~~grins~~ or "Just Playing" underneith would anyone have been offended?

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We allow fantasy in the galleries-- this is obviously an extreme of example of, shall we say, Low Fantasy. There is a connection between Masonry and LDS, btw, both in a positive and negative sense. My dad was both. Tacky image, are those scan artifacts I see? Emily

Have you guys read any of his other entries? They're great! I especially like the one about the queen of England being a vessel of evil that's held sway over her bloodline for generations.

Who cares...As a Matter of fact I have no I idea why I just wasted my time typing LOL

"I especially like the one about the queen of England being a vessel of evil that's held sway over her bloodline for generations." That's due to her reptile DNA, no doubt... ;-)

just dropped by.. my two cents: FyreSpiryt, i am glad for you, but we sure never met the SAME kind of masons.. here (in my area) they ar enot as nice at all... aside from suspicion of murdering some popular /public people, i can tesify as a victim that i saw them ruining some lives (mine and also one of a friend of mine, same methods/context), by mere "influence game" and power... maybe from oen country to another they have not the same "values" or goals, or maybe they do not express themselves in the same way depending on the situation. Most peopel i saw that had their live ruined by was because they either refused to join them after being proposed, or becasue they were in conflict with someone from their side or protected by one of them...no matter how legitimate and right they were. so i dont want to make a polemic or all, renderosity is not the place, but as the recent events in both my situationand my friends are still hot as ever and painful and we had new nasty surprised last week, i was very puzzled by your words here. forgive me, was just my two cents... for me often it just look liek another sect or mafia, only methods and "friends" do change. but some say i am far too nihilistic and bitter a man after all :) have a nice day. ( (if it can make you at ease, on tyhe opposit, i knew members of a "hated" group in my area who were fine and nice to me, no matter how evil they were depicted by others.) so where lies he truth ? there is no generality, it is always depending on the individuals and contexts maybe...

Perhaps we need a gallery set aside for people with intellectual difficulties - that Black Pope stuff is insane.

Actually, the head of the Jesuits is called the "Black Pope", even within the church (usually by non-Jesuit clergy). The society was founded to counter the Protestant reformation. It was designed to be the Pope's personal legion of faith against Protestant heresy. The Jesuits have a reputation for being the best educated and brightest of all the Roman clergy (although a few Benedictines I know would disagree). Most of the stuff in the comment with the image (which in itself is very good), is a combination of anti catholic propoganda from the time of the reformation all the way to the KKK's anti catholic rants in the 1920's. A bit of it even has smidgen of truth. Pacelli did support the Axis prior to WWII. He negotiated the concord between Mussolini and the church in the 1930's that established the Vatican State (he was the Vatican Secretary of State at the time). There's a lot the Church has done, and continues to do that is very harmful, but most of his commentary doesn't hold water. As for censoring his comments? No way. Comments really should be on the Art, since this is a site to support artists. His art is pretty darn good. His history is pretty darn bad.

DINGDINGDINGDING ! Bobbasaur got it right ! And the joke is on most of the audience. ~S

"Perhaps we need a gallery set aside for people with intellectual difficulties..." - BigTim

"We already have one: it's called Poser Gallery." - Ironbear ;]

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Hail Eris! bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Sounds like someone read the "Davinci Code" and thought it was fact - Even the author says it is fiction. But it probally a feeble call for attention. My favorite anti-catholic conspiracy theory had the Jesuits creating Islam and teaching Mohammed- The writer of this forgot one intesting fact which is a fasinating post since mohammed was born alomst a thousand years before before the Jesuits were formed. So either it means the author of the theory is a bigoted idiot or the Jesuits are have Time Travel. I'm betting on idiot. Unfortunatly I discover facts do not disuade peopel who feel called to spead such rubbish. Hate is not an art form. Sorry, but this is a sore spot with me artiscally intellectually and morally.

I believe the words are part of Seneca's Art. As a Catholic, I HOPE he is trying to say this: The Catholic Church of the Middle Ages and the Inquisition was no better than the Nazis, the Bolsheviks, and the KKK. Don't judge today's Catholics by their Middle Ages counterparts. Don't judge today's Germans by the Nazis. Don't judge today's Russians by the Bolsheviks. Don't judge today's American Southerners by the KKK. Move on and forgive the wrongs of past generations. Some information on Pedro Arrupe and Peter Hans Kolvenbach may help us to understand Seneca's work better.

"Illuminati was started by Gallileo." eh, no it wasn't. It was started by Adam Weishaupt in Bavaria, in 1776. It didn't make it past his lifetime, but people still have fun making conspiracy theories about them and the Masons regardless.

"FyreSpiryt, i am glad for you, but we sure never met the SAME kind of masons.. here (in my area) they ar enot as nice at all... " Eh, so between the spagetti dinners and helping the poor crippled kids, they spent a whole ten minutes on world domination and ruining people's lives eh? ...lol... sorry dude, but I come from a long family line of Masons on my paternal side, and I have to say, they were all upright moral respectable people, generous to a fault and with great big hearts. Dearly loved, and dearly missed. Been around a few women's lodges in Europe as well, and they aren't what you say at all. The only thing secret about them are grips and codes, so they can identify each other. This is to prevent someone from trying to identify themselves falsely as a Mason in order to gain free hospitality, as in Masonry you are obligated to help another Mason when in need. Masonry is NOT a religion, and discriminates against none of them. I've heard it also said, scratch an anti-Mason and you'll discover an anti-Semite. When you look at all the anti-Mason pages on the web, that cliche seems to be borne out as largely true.

Eh, so between the spagetti dinners and helping the poor crippled kids, they spent a whole ten minutes on world domination and ruining people's lives eh? Yes. Obviously. Actually, my father-in-law was telling me about different branches of Masonry in Australia (since they differ from place to place), and at the end of his explanations I said, "And they're all part of the conspiracy that controls the world, right?" :-) Masonry is NOT a religion, and discriminates against none of them. Not entirely correct. I believe that most branches of Masonry (and there are a LOT of them) require members to be monotheist of some sort (including deists). bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Attached Link: http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/textfiles/religion.html

Its forbidden to discuss religion in lodge meetings. Strong atheism is frowned upon, but its not banned. Its just not a topic for discussion for Masonry :)

"Sounds like someone read the "DaVinci Code" and thought it was fact"

Damn good book by the way.

...... Kendra

I have to agree... I enjoyed the book as well. The book is historical fiction. Fiction, with a healthy dose of historical fact (and fancy) mixed in. The biggest fact of the book is obvious by its title. Da Vinci put a lot of puzzles into his artworks. Nobody really knows why though ... that's why the book is fiction, and not fact.

Its forbidden to discuss religion in lodge meetings. Interesting. There you go. I stand corrected. Oh, wait. Aren't I supposed to call you names and claim a bunch of stuff that's got nothing to do with anything and maybe bring up stuff you allegedly did years ago in order to get out of the fact that I was incorrect... ? I mean, that seems to be the usual way to go about things. ;) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

lol bonni, yeah it goes something like that. Well wait, I'm sure someone will step up to the plate soon enough... lol. hey, isn't this an OT thread, nothing about Poser... bua ha ha ha

hey, isn't this an OT thread, nothing about Poser Be careful. You'll make someone cranky. ;-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

A decent image with an odd description. I'm really glad to be an evolutionist. I would not have liked to take heat for this one...

Bijouchat, you're probably right. The Galileo thing is just something I got third or fourth hand from a friend; heaven only knows where he got it. I realized later I probably shouldn't have put it in, but oh well. Guess I'll have to join Bonni in the slinging. ;)

The Galileo thing is in Dan Brown's other paranoia fest, Angels and Demons, which is actually about the Illuminati, and provides some heavy-duty "facts" about Galileo's role. One of the fun things about secret societies is, it's kinda hard to prove who isn't in them. M

Attached Link: http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/andrew_white/Chapter3.html#II

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/Writings/Illuminati.html The Illuminati was founded by a Bavarian, in Bavaria, 135 years after Galileo died, and the exact same year Thomas Jefferson penned the Declaration of Independence. It got banned in Bavaria too. There's certainly some evidence that some members of the the Illuminati emigrated to America (Adam Weishaupt stayed in Germany however), but that's mostly because the Bavarian government banned the group and exiled the founder. Became too popular for the Catholic church to stand, and the members a bit enthused over Enlightenment ideals, which caused more than a few monarchs to shiver, shake, and eventually lose their cushy "divine right" jobs. But people come up with all kinds of "founding" myths. The reality is that the Illuminati didn't exist before Adam Weishaupt founded it. Not to mention that Galileo is an Italian, and the Bavarian Illuminati ... was exactly that, Bavarian, based in Bavaria, in Southern Germany. Its true that there were 'secret societies' before that, many of the followers being influenced by Pythagorean mysticism, "music of the spheres" and all that jazz. Its why Copernicus was proposing his heliocentric theories, about the planets revolving around the Sun, which turned out to be somewhat true (actually the planet orbits are slightly elliptical), but not for the reasons Copernicus was proposing them. I've provided a link about Heliocentric theory so that some of you may be "illuminated" by a little correct history. Its really got nothing to do with world domination, and everything to do with keeping your head attached to your neck in an era when the church had a lot more power to muzzle a scientist that dared discover something that went against their "truth".

S'ok Fyrespirit, the friend probably read Dan Brown's book, and misunderstood it. There's a myth that Galileo founded the 'early Illuminati', which Dan Brown has weaved a story around, but there's just no hard evidence for this. If there was an Italian secret society that Galileo was involved with, it likely had no connection to the Bavarian Illuminati, which was more political and rational, and not mystical in its character. The Illuminati had its roots in the disbanding of the Jesuits in Bavaria at that time around the American revolution. Weishaupt was educated by the Jesuits. Its not untypical for modern day crackpots calling themselves "Illuminati" or claiming some "Illuminati conspiracy" to claim or point at some great figure of history as their "founder" ... I mean lets face it, nobody knows who Adam Weishaupt is these days... lol.

Attached Link: http://home22.inet.tele.dk/hightower/spheres.htm

The link attached is a good account of the history of the "music of the spheres" or harmony, its roots in Pythagorean thought... no Illuminati were involved. ;) A few Greeks, though. this one is also a good page about the development of Heliocentric theory. http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Heliocentric.html

Um, let me see if I got this right: A reliable source for debunking anti-Masonic rumors is the website of the Grand Lodge of BC and the Yukon? And Galileo wasn't an Illuminati because they say so? And the connection of the Masons to the Knights Templar is "a legend" according to them? I was a DeMolay Chevalier when I graduated from high school, and I assure you it is no coincidence that the "boy's club" of the Masons shares the name of Jacque DeMolay, the Grand Master of the Knights Templar imprisoned, tortured, and executed by Philip the Fair of France. DeMolay's connection to Masonry as, shall we say, non-trivial. Accepting the Masonic explanation of the Illuminati strikes me as shaky research. About as reliable as Mormon explanations of the Aztec pyramids, Jerry Falwell's explanation of dinosaur tracks, or Clinton's of how that got on her dress. According Illuminati buffs, Weishaupt was just the tip of the iceberg, so to speak, and Galileo was a major player. This site is a lot more fun than the Masons, if not as official-looking: http://www.skepticfiles.org/rumor/outline1.htm. And if it seems a bit crackpottery, well, so do the ancient Hebrew origins of Freemasonry.... M

Yeah, and I'm sure you think NASA faked the moon landing too. ;) I am not the conspiracy theorist, you are. I've been around the groups (one was a website client, grandfather a mason, great-grandfather a 33rd degree Scottish rite mason) so I've seen people in the Masons firsthand. Unless you find a great mystical conspiracy in say, the invention of certain dental tools (that's what my great-grandfather did to get so notable). Or perhaps the desire to be rid of a monarchy in a backwater European country (Bavarian Illuminati, and yes, that part of my family is Bavarian, and they left to come to America). Nothing mystical going on there. But hey, some people think there's conspiracies in everything.

Galileo was a Catholic, and was one till the very end. Freemasonry has its roots in Enlightenment Europe, and not in any ancient "Hebrew" anything. They never were real stonemasons. The 'mason' part of their name is a metaphor. I really have to laugh, because the ancient Hebrews never were very advanced in the sciences and mathematics of their day. The Greeks were the notables of philosophy and mathematics, especially Anatolian Greeks such as Pythagoras. Much of Masonic ritual is based on Pythagorean concepts. Galileo and Copernicus also were influenced by the Pythagorean school. This philosophy school was based in TURKEY and run by GREEKS, for people who cannot yet read a map or figure out their nationalities... And if the Heliocentric theory seems a bit 'Sun' based, remember, they were worshipping a 'Sun' god. The Hebrews weren't worshippers of Apollo, their religion told them not to even look to the sky (check out those ten commandments again, sweetie!) and certainly had little love for the Babylonians, where the Pythagoreans likely inherited much of their mathematics knowledge, and probably some of the mysticism too. And we still count time via the Babylonian method pretty much... just improved upon. Or did you never bother to read the mathematics pages and the one history of heliocentric theories from the Infidels page (a group of raving secular humanists, aka atheists) seriously ... if someone sent you a NASA page on the Moon landings, you would say it was shaky research because it came from the official website. I just happen to know from first hand experience that there's nothing mystical about the Masons, and I sent links from an official Mason site, not an unrecognised lodge or a bunch of anti-semitic Xtian fundamentalists. So what if you were involved with some crackpottery group, needless to say, there's quite a few around. I can't know who you were really involved with, if it was official, clandestine or what. I've seen similar claims from others that claim to have been "injured" and have been involved with the Masons (just scan up the page to Riddokun's reply... you'll see what I mean) Me, I had first hand experience with Masonic family members, that lead normal lives as normal people do. Also first hand experience with a women's Masonic group in Germany (I worked on their website) My grandfather was an acquaintance of Norman Vincent Peale, and I can't see a damn thing negative or truly crackpottery about anything that Peale taught in his church. (and yes, he was a Mason, too) All the self-styled "Illuminati" groups around today are crackpots as well, and have nothing at all to do with the original group... which was a footnote in Bavaria's history.

The "crackpottery group" I was involved with was DeMolay, which is, like Job's Daughters, the Rainbow Girls, and the Order of the Evening Star, an organization created, controlled, and nurtured by the Masons. There must be an adult Mason in attendence at DeMolay initiations. I was initiated because my father was a Mason, and Chevalier was the highest honor in the organization (I was one of two in Japan, as well as Grand Master or something of Japan for a while (woo-hoo)). My information about the Masons comes from inside, at least that far inside, not what some relative chose to tell me, and not from the public statements of a private, secrecy-bound organization. Maybe you should get your own facts straight before shotgunning "reality" at folks. I didn't say I believed the Illuminati theories; that accusation is your invention. The hysterical thing about the Illuminati is that the lore represents a perfect puzzle--nothing can be proven, because truth, if there is one, is layered thicker than an onion. (The protocols of the Bavarian Illuminati are written in a code that appears to be anti-Semitic, so that if they are disclosed, people will discount them as anti-Semitic ravings. And so on.) I said I didn't see any reason to give the Masonic slant more credence than the Illuminati theorists'. Masons are nice guys with some peculiar ideas about history, notably their own. The Masons themselves trace their roots to the building of Solomon's Temple, to the stonemason's guild of the Middle Ages, and to the Knights Templar. Those facts tangle inconveniently with your own view of reality, but that don't make 'em false. Since there was no Solomon's Temple, according to my personal best authorities, being founded by the guys who built it seems, to me at least, a bit weird. Speaking of Poser, I just noticed that Displacement Bounds can be set for individual objects. M

the connection of the Masons to the Knights Templar is "a legend This one I know more about. My father-in-law is a longtime Mason and he subscribes to a magazine that has articles of interest to Freemasons. I read in that publication about the Knights Templar, actually. The historical Knights Templar were disbanded centuries ago. The modern Knights Templar were founded as an order of Masonry that has more overt and direct Christian ethics and overtones. The connection is recent, and is NOT historical. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Very frustrating to be arguing from a basis of integrity that will not allow me to break an oath to an organization I know longer belong to or care about. All I can say is, while the connections to the Knights Templar, the masons guilds, and the folks who build "Solomon's temple" are no doubt imaginary, they are NOT presented as fable and allegory in the context of DeMolay. And I have to say again, reading Masons on Masonry may be useful, but there is a "conflict of interest" issue since their most important ideas and values are bundled up in blankets of secrecy and blood oaths. I suspect that the origin of the Masons is rooted in the wishful thinking of a handful of neurotic British men with no more connection to the Templars than they had to the Sufi, emissaries from Mars, or angels eager to teach them Egyptian and hand over golden plates. So in that sense, the connection is "not historical." But the connection of Germans to Proto-Aryans is "not historical," and the connection of Christ's birth to December 25th is "not historical." Not sure what "not historical" gets us.... M

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=600222&Start=1&Sectionid=1&filter_genre_id=0&

Swift taught me a long time ago to fight fire with fire. I keep forgetting. [Hell's Belles](http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=600222&Start=1&Sectionid=1&filter_genre_id=0&WhatsNew=Yes)