In my country, Spain, they have exploded pumps and they have died 200 persons. The motive the support of Spain to United States in the war of Iraq. Today there are elections. I have voted by a pacifist party.

no hay partidos pacificos en este pais : (

My thoughts are with the people of Spain in this time of sorrow and grief....I feel overwhelming anger. The senseless killing and hatefulness will never end... It's what man does best. Peace to you,SWAMP

no hay partidos pacificos en este pais Falso

Phate & Estruch, this is an english speaking forum. Marv pulls out a soap box from nowhere and stands on it If you have something to say, say it in English! I personally believe the use of non english text on an english speaking forum to be the height of bad manners. And whilst I am on the subject, is it really necessary to bring politics into a forum which is in essence a place to discuss Poser. I have friends in spain myself, one of whom I was talking to last night on MSN, my heart goes out to them, but this does not belong here. Marv steps of soap box, and walks away muttering to himself

I was reading about the attack on the 11th. It is a horrible problem. I am sorry Spain has been targeted. I hope that through such grief, our contries will become closer.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

this is an english speaking forum Is that something new in the TOS? My sympathies go out to those in Spain ... it is a very sad event indeed.

There is no rule stating that you have to speak english anywhere. In the UK or anywhere in the world. But good manners are good manners, if you among people that don't speak your language, you endavour to use theirs, if you can. Estruch can, he chose not to, that offends me. I have nothing more to say on the matter, it's my opinion, take it or leave it.

marvlin, you're post is the one here that shows bad manners. That's my opinion. Take it or leave it. For the rest, there is already a thread in the OT forum about Madrid's slaughter. @Estruch : vaya con dios, amigo.

OT for a minute with apologies. (rephrasing more gently) Too many are worrying about things that are none of their business like choice of language, topics and so on. Do you have any idea what has happened there..? And you call it "politics". Compassion would be better manners. I am really disturbed that anyone would actually tell someone what language to speak. And I think we can all make rrom for one less "freebie/how to" post every now and then. Topic fanatics are ruining this forum.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

I write in englsih in this forum. But I received in spanish a bad reply. I write what I vote party pacifist, and received one reply. "Not exist pacifist partys in my country". I respond: "is not true". OK? Marvlin My english is not good, but I make an effort in the English. Renderosity is for all the world.

Then I'll stay away! What happened in spain was the murder of 100's of innocent people, they didn't deserve it and as I have already said it is a horrific thing to have happened. But it is politics, the aim of the terrorists was to turn the people against the government. The terrorists want the people to spain to blame the current government of spain for all those that have been murdered, based on the fact that if spain hadn't assisted in iraq, this atrocity wouldn't have happened. The opposition party in spain has pledged to remove all spanish armed forces from iraq if they come into power. As a result of this murder of inocents, it looks like public opinion will be swayed towards the opposition party. The opposition party wins, the spanish suppoet is withdrawn, al qaeda have got their way. Yes my friend, this is politics, if you think it isn't you need to wake up and see what is really going on in the world.

"I write in englsih in this forum. But I received in spanish a bad reply. I write what I vote party pacifist, and received one reply. "Not exist pacifist partys in my country". I respond: "is not true". OK? Marvlin My english is not good, but I make an effort in the English" Good point I apologise, but please keep these things out of the forum.

You need to mind your own business. You are not a moderator in this forum. If you don't like it go to a moderator listed above. It isn't your place to hound someone with these personal beliefs of yours.

-Anton, creator of ApolloMaximus: 32,000+ downloads since 3-13-07
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

NEW The Poser FaceInterMixer

Agreed! I am not a moderator, but this is what happens when you bring world affairs onto a forum that is a bout 3d art. I have seen this sort of thing before on many forums, what was a mature, helpful and enlightening place to visit turns into a hotbed of debate and insults. It appears on this occasion my attempt to avoid this from happening has actually inflamed the situation, And their was a situation developing as you can see from "Phates post". I will as you say "Mind my own business", but I stand by what I said, keep this forum what it is and lets not turn it into a podium for political rhetoric.

ay, bastante..lo siento que las muertas en Espa (sorry, can't find the ascii value for the lower case)..y para nuestras parte en este, perdoname..granted, worse Spanish than usual, but de la corazon..

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

I am english, I live in Spain and thought it would be easier for Estruch to understand, sorry. Estruch, this porbably would have been better in the OT forum. Would you mind telling me wich parties are the peaceful ones? please dont say PSOE

I only vote marginal partys.

strange fact (probably not a coincidence either): The attack took place on th eleventh of march, 911 days after the september eleventh bombings

This post is moved to OT as doesn't really deal with poser. To Estruch please post future topic to the OT forum. I am sorry for the lose to your people we too have suffered losses here in the US. So can feel your pain.

Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things

SndCastie's Little Haven

"The attack took place on th eleventh of march, 911 days after the september eleventh bombings" Not to nit-pick, but 911 days after September 11th, 2001 would have been March 10th... (Did the date addition in Excel.)

El gran estado de Tejas desea su naci y puebla toda nuestra condolencia, mis amigos. Sorry if that's not quite right, my Spanish is not very good (actually Texas/Mexican border Spanish), but the sentiment is the same.

I normally don't like to get into these things, but this topic is close to my heart. marvlin is right about one thing: if the people of Spain change their vote because of terrorist acts, the terrorists win. When terrorist tactics succeed, terrorsits will continue to use them and kill more innocent people. The only way to stop terrorism is to fight back, not give in.

lol did you count the leap year extra day?

"If you have something to say, say it in English!" Porque razon estoy obligado a escribir en Ingles???, bueno continuo en Ingles... English is a language that many people in the world understand, nothing more, is a way of comunication between different people, if you don't know English then use another popular language as Spanish or French or your own language. In the past was Latin then French, today is English, tomorrow who knows?... Estruch: I am with you, is a shame that the irresponsability or corruption of the goverments that involves us in wars that don't belongs to us, make enemies of who are not our enemies, they can be their enemies but not ours. If you want war then do it by yourself and die yourself, is not our problem, we love and want to live in peace!

Stupidity also evolves!

Why to the governors does not occur a stick them each one so that they stick and they are killed, leaving us to the rest of the Humanity peacefully?

First, I grieves me to witness the terrible loss of the Spanish people. I also personally apologise on behalf of stupid official US comments along the lines of " Now they see that all europe must get on the US anti-terrorist wagon." Yes, terrorism effects us all and something must be done to stop it, but the US way is not the only way. Secondly, It seems to me the language issue is exactly the type of thing that gives rise to hate and the attacks. This is an international community even though the site is based in the US. I was able to get the gist of what was written and oddly enough, I could have used a translator from the web if I was really lost. Yes, it is deemed impolite to speak a different language in a conversation that most of the speakers are speaking one language, but Marvlin... Do you speak the native language when you go to non English speaking countries or do you expect them to speak your language? When you go to a non english website to you participate in their language? This thread was about the tragedy in Spain. I'm sorry it became a trivial rehash of speak "English in America".

Estruch wrote: "Why to the governors does not occur a stick them each one so that they stick and they are killed, leaving us to the rest of the Humanity peacefully? " Because then we would be governed by a person who has proven he is more violent or a bigger or stronger than his opponents. Our leaders would not be in place because of their leadership skills and their desire to do good for the people they represent they would be there because the were able to destroy their opponents through violence. The scenario you described is the exact type of world the terrorists want, where Might is right, and you don't get your own way because it is the proper thing to do and has been debated maturily, you get your own way because you killed your opponent with a big stick. Fear is a powerful weapon and can be very effective in changing peoples opinions of what is right. Indeed, even if it scares people into not publicly denouncing terrirism for fear of reprisals it has been effective. Our leaders our human just like you and I, they make mistakes just like you and I, but they are put there through democratic process, based on their policies and what they promise to do for the well being of a nation. it will be a sad day when a government is ellected because if the population didn't vote for them they would be bombed mercilessly untill they conformed to the will of the terrorists. We need to keep things in perspective and see things as they really are, think about the implications of what we say and do, more importantly what we dont say and do, because our children will be the ones to suffer tommorrow for our actions today.

Ref: Barbarellany's post. First of all I am british not american. Secondly, I do try and speak the local language when I am abroad, I think it is only polite and feel it would be arrogant to assume that I can speak english when in somebody else's country. My original post was suggesting that the poser forum was not the right place for this thread and as you have said, you can use a translater, which I did. In fact I have translated every piece of spanish posted here today. I have no problem debating this issue now it is in the proper thread, indeed if I'd wanted to talk politics I would have come to this thread in the first place, but I didn't I want to talk poser, this is my point.

In Spain we have forty years of terrorism with a called group ETA that wants the independence of Euskadi. In fact the Spaniards we are all very burned by this subject, had a civil war (1936-1939) very hard, forty years of facist dictatorship (Franco friend of Eisenhower), crimes of State, and now we are all traumatized. In the USA we do not know yes what is a facist dictatorship. Living scared every day, plenty of fear. Many Spanish politicians reproach to Aznar their support to Bush, leaves from an anti-american feeling comes before from the saying, the support of the White House to Franco. When the 11 S touched to us very close by, we know what is to under go the terrorism and the terror.

There's another way for the leaders: Put them in an asylum in an island surrounded by walls and sharks, so they can play there with their favourite toys and could not harm anybody no more! (Idea from Pink Floyd). We don't need leaders, goverment, politicians!, enough with our own problems.

Stupidity also evolves!

ref: Estruch. I am not saying you don't. Your country has suffered as have many others eg Rwanda where 1000's of women and children were butchered because of their ethnicity, all over the world innocents are killed and slaughtered in the name of religion, race and the pursuit of power and wealth. I can honestly say that here in the UK we have so far had it relatively easy. I am merely saying that as long as people vote and protest on real issues and not knee jerk reactions which play into the hands of these murderers, because it is easier to give in to fear than fight for what is right then we will win. Your people are strong, they have big hearts and whenever I have visited your country they have been friendly and full of the joy of life. I would hate to see your country become radicalised and play into the hands of the terrorists, which to my mind is what I saw when protestors were blaming the government for having the balls to stand up and be counted when the the time was right. As Edmund Burke once said in 1770, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" He also said "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle" I think, that says it all!

And who define who are the "bad men" and who are the "good men"?

Stupidity also evolves!

Well if you need to ask that mate, you are part of the problem.

Don't be ridiculous; everyone who's anyone knows the 'bad' men have brown skin, facial hair and funny accents. Haven't you figured out that 'we' is good and 'they' is baaaad?!

Thanks, now I know that I am a "good man", I have white skin!

Stupidity also evolves!

Okay then, if you insist. The good men: 1/ Governments that support free speech, human rights, don't go round murdering innocent civilians and flying jet liners into high rise buildings. 2/ Governments who despite having a few people within their ranks who are corrupt, fact of life they are as I say human like the rest of us, on the whole the majority of the government want what is best for it's people and are upstanding citizens. 3/ Governments who provide millions in aid to 3rd world countries every year but don't make a song and dance about it, so most of us don't even know they have done it. 4/ Governments who try to build a free society where no matter what colour, race or religion you are you can live safely and without fear of harm. The Bad guys: 1/ Organisations who are non-tolerant of anybody else's point of view. 2/ Organisations who can't get into a power through democratic means, so seek to bully, murder, divide and undermine the economies of the nations thay want to rule untill they destroy the goverment and install their own totalitariun regime. 3/ Organisations who can't fight the military or goverment head on so murder defenseless civilians, creating rumours and discontent among the populace. 4/ Organisations who seek to destroy democracy and free speech, eg Taliban. 5/ Organisations who will render the population ignorant through poor or biased education so they are more easily manipulated. 6/ Organisations who murder 200 innocent civilians going about their business injuring 100's more. In recent history every time there has been a military engagement, involving coalition forces they have sought to minimise civilian casualities, they didn't succeed, but when you are fighting men who position military hardware in populated areas and attack from that position who is to blame for their deaths. Most of these terrorist atrocities are supposed to be in retaliation for the ivasion of irag/afganistan etc etc, but they are not aimed at military targets they are directly aimed at civilians and timed for maximum fatalities. I would suggest it is very clear who the bad men are! Our governments are the lesser of 2 evils by a very long way.

My Irish/American Indian heritage has left me with skin that's sort of beige, so I guess I qualify as a whitey in the technical sense, anyway. As it stands; I DO have facial hair, a funny accent (that would be 'Texan'), I don't love Jesus and I'm of the opinion the current U.S. government is a collection of some of the worst drooling imbeciles to have ever peed in the gene pool. I also think the war in Iraq was a stupid idea and that trying to drive terrorism out of the middle east is tantamount to having a screen door on a submarine.

I wonder if I'm one of the good guys?

Based on marvlins guide above I'm afraid I can not find one government anywhere in the world that qualifies as "good Guys" However the "bad guy" criteria describes the "coalition" very well.

Let me ask all you people that critisize your own governments. Who do you want in power? What is the answer? You don't like what we have, what do you want? What party or way of life do you think is the answer? I hear a lot of critisism, but no alternatives offered. To coin another phrase, "It is easier to point a critical finger than to offer a helping hand".

News in Spain The Popular Party are lost the elections. Its support to George Bush has paid with the defeat.

No the innocent murder of 200 people has lost the popolar party the election. Before the bombings they were ahead in the polls and looked set to win, despite the bush association, after the bombing it was a landslide against them. This is a victory for terrorism and I hope to god not a sign of things to come. This is a sad day for democracy.

Still waiting for answers to post 40. It's very easy to make fun of and critisize but not so easy to provide solutions to these problems. Every time you support an anti-government movement of any kind you should really give some thought about what will replace it, if you get your on way.

its pathetic that PSOE should win thanks to the 11-m bombings

Phate, are you saying it is a pathetic suggestion that the bombings are a the reason they won. Or that it is pathetic that they were able to win as a result of the bombings? I am not making fun of you mate, I realise there is a language issue here and I am merely trying to understand your point of you :o) I value all opinions, whether I choose to take them on board of coarse id my affair, but that's what free speech and democracy is all about.

There is a fairly good discussion of this (the bombings and their effect on the elections) over in this thread on Metafilter.

It's unfortunate how it all happened, certainly the loss of life sucks. What is hard to imagien is hoe the Spanish who already know that appeasement is useless thanks to their experiences with ETA would now cave in to the obvious attempts by Al Queda to dictate their national policy.

Pacifism won't work. It never has.

Who do you want in power? A leader that represents the people What is the answer? What is the question? You don't like what we have, what do you want? Peace What party or way of life do you think is the answer? Honesty Let me ask you a question marvlin. I guess by implication you are not critical of your leader Tony Blair so do you really believe that he is an honest and good leader that represents the people of the UK and the history of the Labour movement?

its pathetic that the bombings are the reason they won

"its pathetic that the bombings are the reason they won" It's also untrue. It's far more complex than that. There are many issues involved.

Thanks again for the definitions, now I know that I am "good man" and Bush is a very "bad man" the same as Bin Laden or Hussein. Who do you want in power? NOBODY, we aren't slaves neither we need a master What is the answer? To what? You don't like what we have, what do you want? Peace, freedom (not a fake one) and no lies. What party or way of life do you think is the answer? My life and everybody have his own life and road. We are not sheeps, well I am not, I don't know about the others.

Stupidity also evolves!

pierrecolat, all day Ive been seeing interviews with people who say they normally vote for the PP but due to the recent bombings they voted for the PSOE ""Who do you want in power? " NOBODY, we aren't slaves neither we need a master" kawecki, anarquy (or however its spelt) has never worked and never will

I try to learn 'please', 'thank you' in the local language. Unlike Europeans, it costs a major chunk 'o change to go to a foreign country (closest to me is Bermuda, closest foreign-language place is a tossup between Mexico and Quebec, each several days drive away..;). As a 6th-Generation Texan living in El Paso, it was mandantory to learn Spanish (wish I'd gotten more than one year in..;). So I get to go to a country once, probably in my lifetime, so to spend the 2-3 years of intensive study to learn a foreign language is a bit much (though I pick up phrases from time to time..;)
I don't know if this event had time enough to really influence the election, I'm sure many were still in shock. If 90% of the people were against us from the start, a change in power was probably likely. Unfortunately, the Al Quaeda are more interested in killing than changing minds. Anarchy's in the UK..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Wouldn't surprise me if Al Queda timed this to give the people time to be distraight, but not enough time to think about it objectively or get mad before the elections.

Who do you want in power?.... Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country. -Hermann Goering,Nazi leader at the Nuremberg Trials- Guess who I don't want in power!

"The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it." -Albert Einstein

Let me ask all you people that critisize your own governments. Who do you want in power? I want power to remain with those who allow me to continue to critisize my gov't. I feel it is my civic duty to pay attention to what the elected and not so elected do. If I see something I feel is wrong, based on the spirit of our constitution and recognising that it is a living document, I am bound as a citizen to speak up and have the right to expect the freedom to do so without fear of reprisal. So basically, call me what names you will, but you can't stop me.

So far I have heard that, those of you want the right to critisize your government, I agree. What I am saying is, every critism of your government is another nail in it's coffin. This may or may not be deservered, but once your government is dead, is the leading party replacing it going to be any better. Spain no has a government that from my perspective will be quite happy to let the UK, US and other members of the coalition carry the burden of fighting against extremism at it's source. More than likely the attacks by Al qaeda will stop in your country, because in effect you have done what they wanted and you knew you were doing it wneh you voted for them, it was one of their main policies, the withdrawel of troops from Iraq. Hyperthetically, lets say in the future, that as a result of the continued attack on the economy of the states that their economy collapses, to the point they can't finance any more overseas conflicts. The UK doesn't really have the resources to fight these poilicing actions by themselves so you can right them off too. So your in a world where the US doesn't interfere in overseas policy on a military scale. What do you think will happen. Will the Isrealies and Palestinians live in harmony or will the arab nations sweep through the now unsupported democracy of Isreal, wiping it of the place of the earth. I think the latter TBH. Will the muslim extremists stop trying to bomb countries into submission because they don't support their Islamic values, I don't think so. The fact is the extremists wont stop untill we are all praying to mecca, and teaching our children the Koran. Ref: Kaweki, what are you going on about. read the thread! Ref: Swamp, Nice quote, relevant and actually makes a good point. My argument is, We are under attack and is appeasement the answer, ref: chamberlain. It doesn't work long term. Nobody wants to fight, nobody wants to die, but sometimes you have to fight, governments make these tough decisions and carry the blame for it when it goes wrong. If you don't fight today, you will have to fight the enemy sooner or later, only later the enemy will be stronger and more powerfull. I've got to go work, so I'll continue this debate when I get back.

"God doesn't play dice" Albert Einstein again, but quantum mechanics is working fine! If you have no enemies you don't need to fight soon or later. If the goverment make tough decisions of war and then it goes wrong it means that the goverment has no competence, so is much better to not take those decisions.

Stupidity also evolves!

LOL I fail to see the significanse of your two quotes Kawecki :o/ You will always have enemies, there will always be somone who wants what yo have, or doesn't agree with how you do things, it is human nature, we are all different and have different philosophies on life. The same applies to our leaders, in our case we put them in power and we can take it away. In the case of the terrorists and countries like IraQ, they didn't have the power to remove their unjust leader and they haven't been elected as spokesman or representatives of their people, they have took it upon themselves to impose their opinion on others by force. Indeed the nation of Islam has publicly stated that they oppose the murder of innocents and that Islamic law does not condone this sort of terrorism. So who do al qaeda represent, did the Islamic world ask them to murder innocent women and children, I think not. These are "Bad men" who create unrest within a society and then use this unrest to recruit more terrorists and effectiviely turn a population against itself and its government. Kawecki said "If the goverment make tough decisions of war and then it goes wrong it means that the goverment has no competence, so is much better to not take those decisions." If it "goes wrong", but were they wrong to support the coalition? Only history will tell. Your government didn't kill those people on the trains, Al qaeda did. If a government bases it's decisions based on whether Al Qaeda will like it or not then they become nothing more than a puppet goverment to the same, is that who you want to rule your nation? You hope that you are right! You hope that if we agree to the terrorist terms they will go away! You hope that we can live in a world of peace without the threat of force to maintain it! But as Benjamin Frankin once said "He that lives upon hope will die fasting"

About killing inocent people, woman and children I don't see any difference between Bin Laden, Sharon and Bush, oh yesss, the first one is a bad guy, the second is defending the Jews against the evil terrorists and the third is only a colateral damage, I am full of hypocrits! "like IraQ, they didn't have the power to remove their unjust leader" Do you believe this tale???, any dictature even the most bloody need a support of a significative or important part of the population, (don't need to be the majority), when the dictator lose this support he must run away very fast. "If a government bases it's decisions based on whether Al Qaeda will like it or not then they become nothing more than a puppet goverment to the same" And how you call a goverment that bases it's decisions based on whether Bush, or any US president, will like it or not? In the first case I have no experience, but in the second case is a very long story and history!

Stupidity also evolves!

As I have said there is a difference between "collateral damage" as a result of poeple being used as human shields and a direct and deliberate attack aimed solely at civlivlians. To compare Osama Bin laden to Bush is ludicrous. Bush is a democratically elected leader who has not to my knowledge deliberatly set out to kill innocent civilians. Reference the puppet government of the US comment. Spain was an ally in the fight against an unjust regime and was there fore united with us in the fight against an evil dictator. As regards Sadam having the support of "a significative or important part of the population" that is not true. The population of Iraq is made up as follows: Muslim 97% (Shi'a 60%-65%, Sunni 32%-37%), Christian or other 3% Saddam was a Sunni muslim! This is a quote from an recent news item about IraQ: "About 60 per cent of Iraqis are Shia, and they have been largely excluded from power and denied the fruits of the countrys lucrative oil-smuggling trade, because Saddam and his ruling clique are Sunni Muslims, a grouping that counts for 18 per cent of the population. Saddam has ruthlessly repressed this volatile majority, murdering one cleric after another and ordering his largely Sunni Republican Guard to crush any hint of rebellion." No democracy there then! Ref your remark also, how do you define who is an important part of the population, are you saying the sunni muslims are more important than the shia even though the shia are the majority in iraq. Your last comment" And how you call a goverment that bases it's decisions based on whether Bush, or any US president, will like it or not? In the first case I have no experience, but in the second case is a very long story and history!" All our governments have done things through history we are not proud of, but this is 2004, it is a different world arena, with different leaders and different ideals. If you want to start going through history lets just say Cortes, spanish conquistadors, incas. An entire nation wiped out. But that was then and this now, don't look back, look forward and don't believe everything you hear down the cafe, or in the local paper. Look for the facts before you make judgement on a situation. If your mate tells you that he heard from his friend that the UK government were activley trying to unermine the spanish government would you take it as fact. Who started the rumours that the government deliberately withheld information that Al Qaeda not ETA bombed those trains. It must have started somewhere! The government didn't say it, who did and what would they have to gain? For all you know they genuinely believed it was ETA. The fact that Al Qaeda waited so long to take credit for the attack was alomost as though they waited for the pop government to denounce ETA, which would be a natural assumption under the circumstances. So they could drop them in it, which they did.

I feel sorrow for the Spanish people but also I'm proud of the way they behaved. The people of Spain have shown a dignity and courage which can never be defeated by cowards with bombs. Marvlin..this is an international site, we speak many languages here. You might consider learning Spanish, it would only be good manners, after all, over a fifth of the world's population speak it. It's not a difficult language, it has hardly any irregularities so it won't take you long to pick it up. Congratulations on being made a moderator, by the way :) Mon

"Bush elected leader" are you sure???? About dictatures, if you look at the countries that had dictatures all the dictatures ended when the dictator lost support of the population with the few exceptions of countries like Irak that ended due to external intervention and in the same way ended too, the democracies of Argentina, Chile, Brasil, etc, etc, etc reemplaced with puppet dictatures. "...Cortes, spanish conquistadors, incas. An entire nation wiped out." Are you sure?, why don't you take a trip to Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Guatemala, Mejico, etc, etc and look at the faces of the inhabitants and tell of which race they are, please don't look at me.

Stupidity also evolves!

Mon1alpha! The language issue was discussed very early on in the thread, we have netured away from that now, please try and keep up. You said" About dictatures, if you look at the countries that had dictatures all the dictatures ended when the dictator lost support of the population with the few exceptions of countries like Irak that ended due to external intervention and in the same way ended too, the democracies of Argentina, Chile, Brasil, etc, etc, etc reemplaced with puppet dictatures" Agreed, but this was not going to happen in Iraq, far from it. You said" Cortes, spanish conquistadors, incas. An entire nation wiped out." Are you sure?, why don't you take a trip to Peru, Bolivia, Paraguay, Guatemala, Mejico, etc, etc and look at the faces of the inhabitants and tell of which race they are" Thus ended Tupac Amaru, the last of Manco's sons, the last crowned ruler of Peru, and the last Inca was executed in 1572 and with him died the Inca Race as it was. You can read about it here: http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/road/hc09/incas/home.shtml#top

LOL Try this link, this one works :o) http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/town/road/hc09/incas/home.shtml I forgot to comment on you accusation that Bush was not democratically elected :oO What are you saying? The election was fixed? You really have had your perception of the world distorted haven't you. Next you'll be saying that democracy is a sham and not worth fighting for.

Oh I do beg your pardon, Mavlin, my memory must be going because I can't remember saying anything about " About dictatures, if you look at the countries that had dictatures all the dictatures ended when the dictator lost support of the population with the few exceptions of countries like Irak that ended due to external intervention and in the same way ended too, the democracies of Argentina, Chile, Brasil, etc, etc, etc reemplaced with puppet dictatures" As for my knowledge about South America, well, I bow to your wisdom. My only sources for information with regard to Hernan Cortez, the Conquistadores and the various nations of South America are the spanish and latin documents from the period which I read in the original languages. Now, that's how to patronise somebody..do try to keep up and remember, if you're going to engage in a duel of wits it's best to have some form of weapon with you Your obediant servant Mon

LOL Yeh it does read like I am saying that you said that, I apologise :o) With regards to this rubbish about reading the original documents in latin, I have only your word for that and quite frankly I have the greatest of confidence in my sources of information thank yo very much. Furthermore, this is not a duel of wits, this is from my point of you a mature debate about the issues that have been raised in this thread. I have recieved alot of critisism and alot of comments with no real evidence to back them up. I still haven't had an intelligent response to "post 40" Just comments like "Are you sure?" Yes..Yes I am sure! Quite frankly mate, and I am assuming you are a spanish citizen, It is your country, you are entitled to your view as am I, but if you are going to engage in debate, please offer something positive to it, rather than trying to turn it into a game of one up manship.

"Thus ended Tupac Amaru, the last of Manco's sons, the last crowned ruler of Peru, and the last Inca was executed in 1572 and with him died the Inca Race as it was." "and with him died the Inca Race" Better is to go back to school and learn something and then see by your own eyes. Who conquered the Inca empire was Francisco Pizarro, Hernan Cortes conquered the Azteca empire (Mexico, south of USA). The Inca empire was located in Peru, they expanded and conquered Equador, Bolivia and north of Argentina and Chile. Pizarro could conquer this empire because the ruler Atahualpa was an illegitimate soberan, there was division and war between the Incas, so he give support to one part then to the other until he conquered all off them, he had very few men and was very expert. The changes that happened to the inhabitants of Peru is that they had the king of Spain instead of the Inca, the Aymaras (Bolivia) had the Spanish invader instead the Inca invader. The Inca race wasn't exterminated, the inhabitants of Peru are of Inca race with some mixes of Europeans and Black people. The inhabitants of Bolivia are Aymaras and Coyas, this is today!!!, they speak their languages, they play their music. Even the descedents of the Inca soberan wasn't exterminated, they only lost the power and some of them the head. When Argentina made his independence (1810) there was a discussion of what kind of goverment we will have, there was an option of monarchy with an Inca's descendent as king, we have opted for republic. There was very much blood in this countries not due the invasion but due the fights for independence and rebelions against the Spanish colonialism.

Stupidity also evolves!

Actually I'm english. Mate..(God, how I loathe that particular expression). I was being deliberately pedantic and rude. As for the latin and spanish, that wasn't rubbish but of course there's no way of proving that to you nor do I feel any great need to. I normally wouldn't be so rude but you came in here all guns blazing, telling people what they can or cannot post in a topic called OT. There's a lot of politics talked about in here, from the right, from the left and from people who are from somewhere else entirely. I might suggest that you have missed the point of both this post and of this Forum. I'd like to apologise to the spanish people who've posted here, I really shouldn't have let myself be sidetracked by somebody else's rudeness. This topic is no place for petty bickering. I'm sorry Mon

First of all get your facts right Pal! This topic was origonally posted in the poser forum then moved! I have no problem with it in it's current location. You're all blithering on and digressing, going of at a tangent, but the fact remains that although you are all full of critism for the way the US, UK and previous spanish government have behaved, not one of you critics has offered what would have been a better solution, besides appeasement and pacifism. I'll leave you to wallow in your own mis-informed, self important little worlds and only hope that 20 years from now you still stand by the attitude you have today. My final quote for today is this "I am not arguing because I know I am right" Used My grandfather whenever he argued with his wife and couldn't be bothered to waste any more time on discussion just to get nowhere. Goodday!

He left?! Wonderful!!

lol

Sniff

Stupidity also evolves!

Who was that?

"and only hope that 20 years from now you still stand by the attitude you have today" No I'll be well pushing up the daisies by then

hmm..if the Inca race died with the last ruler in the 16th century, then the Russians all died in 1918 (though they got a little too close for comfort..:) Alas for the French, though there's still family members extant..gone in 1871 or so (another Communist takeover..coincidence? I think not!..;) And the poor Austrians, gone since the early 20th century..ok, I'll stop picking..;)
the Incas, Mayas, and Aztecs didn't go anywhere, they just wound up as meztizos, though there are some natives still around today.
I think I heard some pretty strong statements about Al Quaeda from the Socialists, and some interesting qualifiers about leaving Iraq..so it may not be as bad as some think.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Phew..I tried to get him to go sooner....I must be losing my touch :)......Who was that masked moron? Mon

Forum: OT

Subject: Bombs in Madrid