Check out the hot 20. The top image was posted last year and shot right to the top. Now it's there again. As you recall, it caused all kinds of controversy when it was first posted - mostly because it's a piece of fractal crap, but somehow it made it to the top anyway. So, did 28 people have a party today and vote that old image to the top, or did one person figure out a way to vote for an image several times?

I am curious to know myself how that piece got back in the hot 20 What a controversy that was at the time ! :/

Ok, I'm no great artist.. but what the HELL is that, and where did it come from? o_O

Don't know what happened, but don't like it. Checking into it... Nick

Nick C. Sorbin
Staff Writer
Renderosity Magazine
......................................................................................................
"For every breath, for every day of living, this is my Thanksgiving."
-Don Henley

ROFLMAO!! Or one of those net acronyms that means something like "it is to guffaw". Aww, Keith - be nice. I think the floral pastie is VERY skillfully and artfully placed, giving sort of a mischevious, coquette-ish sort of vibe, ya know? :>) Pretty Primo Pastie Positioning! lol Wow - 28 votes has to be a record! Good thing I printed the page yesterday - I was pretty darn jazzed about it! Looks like a TOS thingie, I guess. Odd that someone would feel they have to pull a stunt like this in a gallery with such a supportive and friendly vibe as this one. The person only has one image, but I'd bet if they had been someone posting here regularly, they would have gotten lots of encouragement - and helpful critique - from everyone and would be having too much fun to think up stuff like this. Whaddaya want for nothing? Actually, I've heard of people having multiple galleries here under different names. Matt comes to mind - he was Midday Crisis and Criminally Insane simultaneously at one time, last year. I guess its conceivable someone could spend a bunch of time and make up 28 e-mail addresses and nicknames.... nah! In the immortal words of George Thurogood - "it don't confront me none..." lol

LOL Rick " coquette-ish " Thats had me in stitches... thats exactly the right word. still chuckling

Was wondering that myself. Kinda defeats the purpose of the hot 20 if someone can petition enough voters to vote on a work that old. The saddest part is that there are some great works this past week or so that should be taking one of the 20 slots that it is taking.

I've never paid much attention to the top 20. Yikes, maybe I should from now on?

Why has this image now been removed from the Hot 20? I've read the TOS and can't see where this made a single violation... As far as i'm aware the only requirement for being in the Hot 20 is that you get enough votes...This image had enough votes so it obviously deserved to be there. I would like an explanation of why an image that doesn't violate the TOS should be removed from it's rightful place in the Hot 20? If it was just removed because some people "don't like it" then it should be put back, ASAP! Matt.

Matt maybe it was removed due to Keith's question about whether one person found a way to vote for an image more than once or not. If 28+ people did actually vote for it independently, then fair enough shrug The number one image in the hot 20 atm certainly has an enormous amount of votes too

Has anyone looked at the #1 image today? It is a different image! It says it has 38 votes, but I looked at the image and there isn't even 1 comment! Something really screwy going on around here!

lol matt, must be because i used the NON-VOTING button Harmen

I noticed the lack of any comments too when i went to look at it. Its very strange.

someone must be really annoyed of making fractals around here, and never get any comments nor votes, most likely its the same person all the time

Even if only one person voted for it then it still deserves to be there. There isn't anything in the TOS that says a person can't vote for an image they like, as many times as they like. It may not be fair...but as far as I can see it is perfectly legal!

your right, lets get all 30 accounts and vote for our own pics, thats fair... isnt it :-)) j/k smile

No thanks, I'll pass. I already have over 40 accounts after getting those 2 images into the Hot 20 ;O)

Judging by the reaction, it looks like someone is getting a good laugh at our expense. I say we find them, burn their gallery down, and string them up for the crows (LOL).

Sounds good to me, aeires. (LOL)

well lets change the whole idea of hot fractal top 20 into hot fractalartist top 20, so everyone has a chance to get into it LOL if it is so important for some to be in there why shouldnt it be changed smile

There's a comment on it now. That person has been victimized by the scumbag that has figured out how to do multiple votes. Renderosity has a small problem with their hot 20 voting system. I'm finding this to be sort of amusing. I am curious to see if or how it will be resolved. I have to give the guy credit for getting right in the face of it, although I feel a little sorry for the victim.

I'm such a simpleton here...I don't understand how this can happen. How can someone pull someones work into the Hot 20 like this?? Please explain in simple language for me. ok? Thanks and hugs, Helen

Hi all

First-
The image was not deleted, but simply moved to 'mixed media', where it was better suited anyway.

Second-
The situation was all too fishy to begin with. This image sparked quite a commotion in this forum awhile back, and to now all of a sudden resurface in such a fashion, well...

Third-
Looking into this, the member had quite a list of clone accounts. Now if these 'clone' accounts were used to vote for the same image- that is against the TOS.
Specifically this part:

"Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community"

Hope this helps to make it clearer. Unfortunately, there is always someone out there with nothing better to do than ruin a good thing, and I'm sure this problem will not fully go away.

Nick

Nick C. Sorbin
Staff Writer
Renderosity Magazine
......................................................................................................
"For every breath, for every day of living, this is my Thanksgiving."
-Don Henley

Yep, let's burn down his gallery and string him up for the crows. This time not LOL. aeires

Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community? Sounds like a get out clause to me... Correct me if i'm wrong, but... The "normal operation of the community" is for people to vote for images they like and if it gets enough votes then it gets into the Hot 20. Isn't that exactly what happened here? Where is the TOS violation? Even if one person voted 28 times using multiple accounts I don't see where this is a violation of TOS. If this person likes the image so much that they are willing to do that then who are you and I to tell them that they are wrong? If Renderosity has a problem with people doing this then they should find a way to stop it. Not persecute people that do it... Matt.

At least it is not hacking the Renderosity database when someone uses clone accounts... thinking he or she's very original... I still remember a certain guy here who was leader in the Most Viewed gallery and every day he got more of his images in there, because they gathered hundreds of views every day, but comments only from his clone accounts. He is gone now...

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

On another note... I see images posted all the time to this gallery that are just as much mixed media as this one was... If you are going to appoint yourself as a judge of what is acceptable and what isn't, then you need to go through the WHOLE gallery. Moving any image that doesn't belong here to the gallery that you think it should be in. The image contained a fractal and has the right to be in this gallery. I think it should be moved back in here! Matt.

I am against having my images moved by someone without my permission. In most cases I have chosen the gallery intentionally. The next step would be the admins exchanging images with others? I do hope that this will not come.

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

Hot 20: Votes a valid for only one week. Perhaps images there should not be older than three weeks? That would always give us the possibility to see new beauties (or popular stuff).

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

I've just re-read the TOS and found that "Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community" is punishable by banishment...Pretty severe...Especially since nothing has actually been violated... It is legal for a person to have an account and vote for any image that they like... It is legal for a person to have multiple accounts and vote for any image they like using any of those accounts... Therefore it must be legal for a person to have multiple accounts and vote for the same image more than once... Am I wrong? Matt.

What is the problem then to repost the image? And have a joy voting again and laugh on those simple guys over there?

@Matt: In this case is better to stop all voting, its not interesting anymore. Except for those people which like to lie to themselves how great they are.

Unfortunately as it says in another recent thread in this forum...One persons crap is another persons masterpiece! What right do we have to stop people voting on an image just because we may not agree with them? Matt.

The voting seems to become a kindergarten amusement. As I said above - in this case the voting is just useless.

I never care for images in the Hot 20. I use the Hot 20 from other galleries to have a fast look on a random choice of popular images and find something that might be interesting for me. The Fractal Hot 20 does not contain images unknown to me. And if I find my own there I am happy, and if not - why worry about it?

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

Matt, I find your rationale on the multiple voting thing to be somewhat specious and more than a little disingenuous. The basic, bedrock principle of the idea of voting in a democratic or pseudo-democratic system is ONE MAN, ONE VOTE. Period. Regardless of how many accounts an INDIVIDUAL has set up for themself, they are still only ONE PERSON. It is illegal in all democratic societies for a person to vote more than once per election for any given elected position and this is what is termed as the "normal operation of the community". Hope you don't get mad at me for speaking out, man - I like your wit and art and consider you a friend. Let's not cloud this issue with hyperbole. The bottom line is that voting more than once for the same image is CHEATING and does a disservice to those whom conform to the free and normal operation of any group. Now we can bandy about the other aspects of the Hot 20 or the supposed "popularity" of the artists that have works residing on the list and some points are well made. Personally, I'm not offended or bummed my image was bumped - I'm just honored so many thought enough of it to bestow such an honor that it made the list. A better thing might be to not have the same image stay up on the list for so long, which would give many more a chance to be on the list if that is what makes them happy or feel energized to keep going. The idea of creating and DISPLAYING images for ones self only seems ludicrous, too. Why display them at all, then? It would be illogical and a large waste of time that could be spent creating more. Truth is we all enjoy the creation of our images, but we post them in hopes someone else will like them, too. Been that way since we were little kids running thru the house with our latest stick-men drawings to show to Mom so's she could ooh and aah over them. Our "skill" as artists doesn't improve so much from "helpful critique/opinion" (though coaching on a personal level helps) as it does merely through practice and experience and encouragement of a new artist to continue can be a key factor in whether or not they bag it and move on or stick with it and become proficient with their chosen program(s) We ALL had to start somewhere. Anyhow - gotta get back to work - sorry for the "soapbox" junk... Rick

BRAVO, Rick!!!

Don't worry, Rick, I won't hold it against you. You have as much right to voice your opinion as I do. I would love to think this was a democracy and majority rules applied, but that isn't the case. When one person can suddenly decide to move an image from the fractal gallery into the mixed media gallery regardless of the original artists views and reasons for posting it to the fractal gallery, then i'm afraid that isn't democracy, it's a dictatorship. I'm over the whole 'votes' thing now but what has really got my back up is the image being moved. I can't believe that me and Andreas are the only people here to voice our concern over this. This is an issue that effects everyone on this site, if you just sit back and let it happen then next week it could happen to ANYONE. I'm sure we would have people coming out the woodwork to make their voices heard if it was a popular image! Unfortunately because this image wasn't and still isn't popular then people are willing to just let it happen and not say anything! So you all just go right ahead and not say a word about it...But when it happens to one of your images and you feel violated...Don't expect me to speak up on your behalf! It may be a little confrontational on my part, but i'm not in the mood to sugar coat what I say today so that people can swallow it easier. Shame on anyone that lets this injustice slide by unchallenged... Matt.

I don't think the issue is whether it was moved, but what the criteria are. This isn't the only site that moves peoples works around, just probably the most lackadaisical about it. Perhaps a clearing up what constitutes what should be in the fractal gallery would clear this up. I've had some mixed media posts myself, and wondered if they were appropriately posted. As long as there was a reason given, which there was, there shouldn't be a problem with egos getting in the way. Regardless, I don't think there would have been a problem if it would have been a normal post. I agree with Rick on the subject. Because it entered the Hot 20 under scrupulous means, it received the most attention. If it was me, I wouldn't have moved it to a different gallery, I would have deleted it altogether for cheating. The whole thing infuriates me because there have been a great amount of exceptional posts this past week. Whoever owns the Hot 21 was done a tremendous disservice, not to mention all the votes for the 21st piece were stomped on because someone "hacked" the system. Jeff

Rick, I have never said that I display images just for myself, obviously I upload them for everyone to look at. I just don't make them for anyone else... If I did then I would still be doing the Bryce/Sphere combos or the layered flames I was making last year. They got a lot more votes and comments than the Apo Faces I am doing at the moment. But because I am happy just making images that I like and not trying to make something I think will get a lot of comments or votes, then I will continue doing my own thing, just like I always have. Matt.

someone "hacked" the system. Nobody "hacked" anything. I think you should scroll up and read my previous postings, I already admitted that it was me who voted the images into the Hot 20. All I did was get a lot of accounts. The penalty under the Zero Tolerance rule for "Intentional practices that affect the normal operations of the community" is a permanent ban along with any clone accounts...This i'm actually looking forward to because I have WAY too many accounts at the moment. So i'm just sitting here waiting to be banned...Gee, I really hope they spank me first... Keith, a person isn't victimised by having one of their images voted into the Hot 20 by me. The victimisation occurs when other people start leaving nasty comments on those images saying they are crap and don't deserve to be there. Maybe you all ought to look at yourselves and your intolerance of others before you point the finger at me... Still waiting to be spanked... Matt.

You know Matt, I think I'm beginning to like you. Love it when someone is so passionate about something that they will go through such an elaborate, intricate, and exhaustive plan just to prove a point. Must have taken an enormous amount of time to log in, vote, log out, and repeat for at least 38 times. Very persistant. Jeff

Fair enough, Matt - I stand corrected. I, personally, enjoy very much viewing the "own things" that you do. I agree, for the most part, about the Moderator of this gallery moving the image to another gallery. Though, I would think Nick would have spoken to the artist involved if he'd had a chance before doing so. My surmise is that the artist was unavailable to be consulted and, since it is (and was when this happened with the same image last fall) the only post in the gallery of the artist, that it can be extrapolated that its sole reason for being posted in the first place was for the purpose of this disruption. I agree with, Jeff, in that I probably would have deleted it and - I'm guessing - Nick probably moved it as a "politically correct" action that was less drastic than removal. I'm just guessing here. On the other hand, I agree wholeheartedly that the staff here should not just unilaterally snag images of bonafide contributors and move them to other galleries and we SHOULD complain LOUDLY and LONG if that happens. There are a lot of "gray areas" when it comes to fractal art, it seems, and I'm sure many "purists" - whom are entitled to be that - would have a problem with many of the images on the fractal pages. The Poser gallery is more easily categorized - its for images where the main focus of the image is the use of the software called "Poser". Same with the Bryce gallery for images made predominately with that program. Here, there are a large number of fractal generators, so its just called the "Fractal" gallery to simplify things and there's a looser standard, I suppose, for what constitutes a "fractal" image. Certainly my stuff would raise the hackles of the old fractal purists of years past. In any society or group, there must be at least some "rules" or "laws" to keep everything from collapsing into anarchy - hopefully very FEW rules/laws! At some point the rules need to be enforced, though, and this IS a company's property that our files reside on and they reserve the right to call the shots in their own "house". If it had been any other situation where the image got yanked, trust me - I'd be right there with you lambasting the "powers that be". I just heard from a friend who posts at Deviant and he said that they deleted one of his posts because it, supposedly, wasn't made with a fractal program! It was an IFS, flame-like image made with the fractal generator, Visions of Chaos. They threatened to ban him for it, as well. Thankfully, we don't get that kind of treatment here. Rick

Ok, so a couple more messages appeared whilst I was painstakingly pecking at my keyboard and thinking over my words... Dang, Matt, whats up with this stuff, man? As to Keith's "intolerance", I'm sure he recognised straight away there was mischief afoot and - I assume - would never have spoken as he did if, say, the second image had appeared b4 the first one and he hadn't recognised it as the one sparking a bunch of "noise" the last time. I can't speak much to the original episode of the "pastie fractal", having not gotten involved in that stuff. Ain't gonna point any fingers - shoot, I just liked looking at your images, man....

Ok, I worded that wrong, I wasn't saying Keith was leaving nasty messages (as far as i'm aware this hasn't happened). It was just that he was the one who mentioned it, but I was talking to everyone in general. There have been a couple of comments left on the image in question...

Whoa! this just got really weird. To create and log on under 38 different accounts and vote for an image is just plain strange. Matt, did you do that the first time too? the one from last year? Is that your image? It's still crap and it doesn't deserve to be anywhere, especially since it was being used as a tool to abuse the system and everyone involved. The admins shouldn't spank you Matt, you would like it too much. Go cut off your ear or something. And you can take that as a complement. You are a great artist, even if you are insane.

LMAO, Scouts honour! That piece of crap isn't mine! This whole thing started as an exercise to show people that they should take the Hot 20 with a pinch of salt. If I can manipulate an image to this extent then there is no reason why someone can't do it regularly to a lesser extent for their own gain. Someone who isn't as honest as I am and wouldn't own up to it. I purposely waited until Rick uploaded an image before doing this (sorry, mate) because it would have more of an impact. Before anyone says anything...No, I don't think Rick is manipulating votes to get his images to the top of the Hot 20. He gets a lot of comments and a lot of votes and they're all deserved. Anyway, I just noticed something really strange (apart from me, Keith, LOL). After spending all day venting in this forum I went out into the gallery and started leaving comments on peoples images and actually enjoyed it! I think having vented sorta chilled me to the point that I could just say what I thought. This may sound weird but one of the reasons I started to cut back on the amount of comments I left was because I felt that what I was saying didn't mean anything. This is one of the reasons I started to go on about leaving constructive criticism. I wanted to feel like what I was saying actually meant something! Some people may think i'm talking crap here and wonder what i'm going on about but I have never found leaving comments easy. I'm not comfortable leaving gushing, praise heaping comments on peoples images. Likewise, it makes me uncomfortable when I receive that kind of comment since in my own mind I have never made an image that was worthy of it... I know sometimes like in this thread I come across as surly, but MOST of the time that is just me having fun, I don't mean anything by it, you really should take everything I say with a pinch of salt (WOW! you wait years to use that expression and then end up using it twice in one posting). While i'm still in a confessional mood. I should apologise to ClassyLadyTwo. The comment I left on your image was made while I was still in venting mode and may be a bit blunt. It should have been helpful, and I hope, like you said in your IM, you can can see it as constructive. Ok...I'm ready for my spanking now, Mr. De Mille! Matt.

LOL can someone explain to me exactly WORD for WORD what a fractal is? For i would like to discuss that first before i say something else. What program do you need to make a fractal anyways. For all i know there are just two different programs, one is bitmap oriented and the other is vector oriented. To which category belongs a fractal program? Vector oriented yes... uhm so is poser, and lightwave, also 3dsmax, lol with photoshop you can make fractals too, fireworks, oh and flash too, even with C++, uhm and etc etc Oh and may i remind you people that a lot of fractal artists flourish up their stuff with other images, whether its being taken from the net or made by themselves. If it is the case that a fractal gallery should only contain fractalized designs and not a combination of this with various other images, then i would suggest that almost everyone who use additional images, to move their stuff immediately to the mixed media category, as the moderator did that also to that multispoken image we were talking about in the first place. Think i move some of my designs to another gallery as well, for they are not really fractals according to the previous comments contained criteria. Or Kurt [Rumple] and i will just have to move to the artmatic pro / voyager gallery, for we aren't really 'fractartists', but feel like home in this fractal gallery :-)) The discussion will take long before we come to the conclusion that we better stick together in this gallery, and enjoy each others art and designs, with or without a fractal generator. smile Harmen

One more quick thought... In the comments I have just left (all were on flame images since that is what I am most knowledgable about) the most extreme superlative that I used was..."Excellent spiral". All the others I left comments and a simple "nice or very nice". Isn't this enough? Why does everything have to a "stupendously, brilliant and amazing masterpiece!!!" What is wrong with making an image that someone finds nice? Surely the main point should be that I found the image "nice" enough to leave a comment on it...Without feeling pressurized into leaving it because the person was expecting me to... I would rather receive a simple "nice" from a person that means it than all the "stupendous, etc etc" from 20 people who just feel obligated to comment on my image. I think there should be a clinic for people addicted to superlatives, they seem to be spiralling out of all context at the moment. Can't we all just be "nice" and get along? Matt.

Hi Matt,

did I really read correctly? It was you under several accounts voting for a randomly chosen image by someone else and making many in this gallery suspect this artist to be cheating? And only for showing us that cheating is possible - something nobody really has been aware of (irony!!, be cautious.)???
I must say, you disappointed me (once again).
The posts about democracy, one man, one vote (how many votes do women have??), moving images as sign of anti-democracy are just results from a childish experiment?
Do you think we need to know how the world is turning around? And you are the one who knows? And all the other people here the ones who don't?
And in the end you complain about the inflatious use of superlatives? A topic from just another thread (Keith started it)? Something that really hurts the world?
Renderosity is a hobby of many who are here. It is cyber reality. Not reality. Reality is outside of Renderosity. When my children are ill. When someone looses his/her job. When I have to learn that one of my friends has got cancer. When some people play war in other countries. These among many other facts are essential. The hot 20 is a toy. Exists only when I start my computer. When I let such a half-real thing touch my ego then I have made a mistake. Then I should start thinking about priorities in the real parts of my life.
Just my two cents (euro)...

Andreas

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

rub it in... the hot20 is a farce

Hi Wojteg, now you touched something that was sleeping behind this thread... Let's see how it will awake...

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

Yea I complained about the use of superlatives and yea it was started in another thread by Keith. Since this thread was also started by Keith and since I already know he has some issues with comments. I took the diabolical liberty to share my views on the subject in this thread as a part of my explanation. Rather than post them in the other thread. What is your actual problem with this? I can only assume that I have said something very similar to what Keith has said in the past for you to have a problem with it. Since I haven't looked at the archive postings and really don't have the time or inclination to do so now. Then Keith should just be happy that something he has said in the past has not been in vain. It has stuck in my subconcious and has raised itself again here... Now i'm really not in the mood to comment on the rest of your posting except to say that you don't know me well enough for me to disappoint you... Nobody here knows me at all or can even be 100% sure that my name is... Matt.

You avoid the critical points and grab out the unimportant parts... Forget the superlatives, take the other parts... I am sure I will never know you or your name or what is behind your pc screen... But why should I?

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

Matt, now you are going to shoot into all directions instead of standing like a grown-up. What has Aartika to do with your being nominated artist of the month?

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

Andreas - "one man, one vote" is merely a saying that originated with the fight of black Americans to have their votes counted equally. Their votes were actually considered to equal something like 2/3 of a vote back in the early-mid 1900's. I did not mean it as women have less or more votes than men. It is simply a quote of the rallying slogan of those times and of the aparthied days of South Africa just past...sorry if it didn't sound right, I didn't mean any sleight to anyone.

Hi Rick, please don't mix up a bad joke of mine with what really interests me here and now...

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

OK, then let us wait for their answer... But I fear you opened a really unhappy box of implications and questions...

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

If we find clone voting on any image, we can and sometimes will remove it from the hot 20. Clone voting is not fair to the members of this site. Abuse of the system is breaking the site rules. We do the same for contests. Spike

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour

 

Hi all In trying to be fair, I realize that not everyone will be satisfied with decisions made. I had moved that first image to 'mixed media', because removing an image from the Hot 20, removes the image completely, from the gallery as well (something I did not want to do). So, 'mixed media' was the next logical place. Setting up clone accounts to vote multiple times on the same image is unfair, and blocks someone else from having a chance in the Hot 20. As I have said in the past, everyone should feel comfortable posting here. This also means that everyone should have their fair chance in the spotlight. I realize there is no perfect system, but I feel there are enough honest people here, that maybe this type of thing will not become a recurring problem. Again, only trying to be fair. Have a great day! Nick

Nick C. Sorbin
Staff Writer
Renderosity Magazine
......................................................................................................
"For every breath, for every day of living, this is my Thanksgiving."
-Don Henley

The woman arrived At an airport one night With several long hours Before her flight. She hunted for a book In the airport shop, Bought a bag of cookies And found a place to drop. She was engrossed in her book But happened to see, That the man sitting beside her, As bold as could be, Grabbed a cookie or two From the bag in between, Which she tried to ignore To avoid a scene. So she munched the cookies And watched the clock, As the gutsy cookie thief Diminished her stock. She was getting more irritated As the minutes ticked by, Thinking, "If I wasn't so nice, I would blacken his eye." With each cookie she took, He took one too, When only one was left, She wondered what he would do. With a smile on his face, And a nervous laugh, He took the last cookie And broke it in half. He offered her half, As he ate the other, She snatched it from him And thought... ooh, brother! This guy has some nerve And he's also rude, Why he didn't even show Any gratitude! She had never known When she had been so galled, And sighed with relief When her flight was called. She gathered her belongings And headed to the gate, Refusing to look back At the thieving ingrate. She boarded the plane, And sank in her seat, Then she sought her book, Which was almost complete. As she reached in her baggage, She gasped with surprise, There was her bag of cookies, In front of her eyes. If mine are here, She moaned in despair, The others were his, And he tried to share. Too late to apologize, She realized with grief, That she was the rude one, The ingrate, the thief! How many times have we absolutely known that something was a certain way, only to discover later that what we believed to be true...was not? " Keep An Open Mind And An Open Heart, Because...... You Just Never Know...... Ya might be eating someone else's cookies!"

Wow, Matt made a point in a grand fashion. The hot 20 can be manipulated. I have always been suspicious of that and now I am convinced that it has happened multiple times. I can think of one person in particular who had variations of the same not-so-hot image showing up constantly on the hot 20, but that was a while ago. After all is said and done, it doesn't really matter, but it sure has been interesting.

Gee, is it just me, or do we seem to have a lot of really bored people in the fractal forum? Matt, don't you have anything better to do with your time? In the scheme of the world, is the Hot 20 really THAT important? Yes, I was happy the one and only time that an image of mine made it there. But frankly, I get just as excited when I get anything other than bills in my mail. My art is a big part of my life. I love to share it with other people. I like knowing that other people enjoy my stuff. But I think if you were doing your art only for yourself Matt (or whoever you are), then why do you CARE so much what is in the hot 20 and what is not? Why are you using something that so many people love and enjoy as a way of generating controversy? I personally am a bit annoyed. I consider each of you my friends here. I DO value each and every one of the comments I receive, from the "Wonderful!" to the "Maybe you should try this..." comments. I think they show that people care. And I think the fact that we care about each other and about each other's work is so much more important than which images are in the hot 20 and which ones aren't. I would just like to see a little more caring and a little less bitching. As for my bitching, I'm done. ~Elizabeth

Well said, Elizabeth.

I still don't understand the first image in the Hot20. Comments usually are a part of the process, but this one has none. Interesting.

Well, at the end of all if somebody didnt know how to cheat, but would be interested of, Matt provides a tutorial. Anyway, congratulations for the stinky brown rain. Do you feel happy now? Never forget - if you think some way, it doesnt mean that all the others do think the same. Live long and prospere.

Hey ... aren't ya guys a bit unfair to him? He admitted what he did, but its not a crime... all he was showing how ridiculous it is to get something in a hot20 area because of someones popularity, not because of the design he made, for many contain mistakes and still get in there, and he chose the image which was most talked about, last year. It was a cynical joke of him, and you guys allready treat him as if he did a crime. Well blame me then also, for i have several accounts here too. And i think it was my fault, for i was with him in the chatroom few weeks ago, and was there with 2 accounts on the same computer, just used 2 browsers... Suppose when ya really want to sort it out, more than 20% of the members here have multiple accounts. During the banner contest of renderosity last year, suddenly 4000 new members joined this community within 3 days after closing date. Voting for a picture of that contest was dependent of the ip addy, well now with a dial up your ip addy changes continuously whenever you restart the computer. So he made his point and it's something we should laf about, not judge... keep on smiling Harmen

Well, let the records know that there is only one Aeires/Jeff in any community. I am what I am which is an honest man.

well i am darkchrystal and undisclosed designer, does that make me a dishonest man?

Only if you vote multiple times. That would defeat the purpose of a democratic vote.

well i dont vote for myself, i think the hot20 is a farce as i said earlier

I never thought you did, Harmen. Besides, you have a very unique (and cool) style, so it was obvious who you were. It just adds a sour taste in my mouth to know that there is so many multiple accounts being used for God only knows what. There are only three reasons I can think of for having multiple accounts. 1-you have two very different styles that you want to get across. 2-you have some works that you aren't sure are good enough, so you post under a psuedoname. 3-just like authors, you want to get something posted without the "fans" giving tons of support (this is often done to see if someone actually likes your work). To do it to push pieces by multiple voting, or God forbid, get yourself into a position you wouldn't have been voted to is, as I eluded to, dishonest. There might be other reasons that are justified, but maybe I overlooked them because I was still cringing after reading there was an increase of 4000 members. Matt started all of this to point out that there is a problem with the Hot 20. Sad thing is that is only a symptom of the problem. The root cause is that if people are creating multiple accounts for dishonest uses, then they need an ego check. I'm not pointing fingers saying who is and who isn't. They know who they are and I would hope they know what they need to do. As I said, I am what I am, an honest man. I also know I am not the only one with this stance, just wish it was 100%. Jeff PS. Still haven't solved the issues of the Hot 20. It's what people think is hot, not perfect, not Louvre calibur, just what people think rocks.

I'm, sadly, reminded in a negative way of my younger days/nights playing guitar in bands. I used to like to scan the crowd and check out how everyone was reacting - or not - to us. People usually fell into one of 3 categories, IMO. Most of the audience would be having a blast dancing, talking and laughing together with their friends. Then there were the quiet, maybe shy ones, who just sat and nursed their drinks and listened and checked out the girls and wished they could get up the nerve - and eventually they did. And then there was always one or two people who would sit way in the back at the bar neither laughing nor really listening either, for that matter. They would just sit there getting plastered and glare in self-righteous resentment at all the "stupid" people laughing and having a good time in the self-assured certainty that they were of superior intellect and were above any of this ridiculous behavior. Didn't all these dweebs know just how stupid they looked and, oh by the way, "thats not EXACTLY how the dumb song goes, anyhow, ya long-haired bunch of morons"? They never danced because that made them "look like fools".... They never laughed.... except maybe if someone slipped while dancing and busted their head wide open on the side of the stage riser and was carried out on a gurney. "Moron, that'll teach him"! They never FELT the songs being played because they were too focused on the guitarist's ever so slightly out of tune B string and their obviously superior ear for having noticed it....sheesh, didn't any of the geeks in this bar hear it, too??? They existed....but they never LIVED They flew on occasion....but they never SOARED They heard.....but they never LISTENED They noticed.....but they never SAW They were smart as the dickens.....surely everyone could see that,couldn't they????.... and if they didn't, well by golly they'd show 'em! Been there?.....Done that?.....Yeah, me too - but I was a hell of a lot OLDER back then! Cynicism IS a crime - a crime of conceit that one perpetrates upon ones own soul. A crime that saps one's zest for life and ability to still get the shivers when the first notes of "She Loves You" come blasting out of the radio and to remember the first time they kissed their future wife and how nervous they were. A crime that makes one old, far beyond their years and colors their world in shades of gray where NOTHING is good and everyone surely has a trick up their sleeve. What's it matter whether or not the emperor is dressed? - we're ALL naked, so why not just lighten up, get up and dance and - per Kid Rock - "get in the mix and try to love someone"?

And THAT ^^^ being said,true and from the heart,should then be taken to heart and end this charade eh? claps and runs off to dance,falls,cracks head,gets up and skips off merrily LOL!

aye... wink

Rykk- excellent words! Methinks this thread has gone as far as it can go. Time to get off it, and move ahead. Nick

Nick C. Sorbin
Staff Writer
Renderosity Magazine
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"For every breath, for every day of living, this is my Thanksgiving."
-Don Henley