Attached Link: http://www.pumeco.com

I am pleased to announce that Bryce 5 users could soon have new rendering abilities. This is thanks to the soon to be released rendering product called PRO-RENDER. PRO-RENDER is nearing completion, and will be submitted to Renderosity and other online stores for testing soon. All being well, the expected release date for PRO-RENDER is August 2004. Here's the specification of PRO-RENDER at the moment: GI (Global Illumination) - Light your scene without the need for lights. EBI (Environment Based Illumination) - Light your scene using a Bryce environment as a light source. IBI (Image Based Illumination) - Light your scene using a backdrop as a light source. Adjustable quality setting (1-5) - Quality from low (fast) to high (slow). The price of PRO-RENDER has not been decided at this moment, and I am open to suggestions as to what price the product should be given. I would like any reader of this message to post a reply suggesting a price for PRO-RENDER. This is VERY important to me. If you decide to make a price suggestion, I would like you to please bear in mind that pumeco was set up to develop 3D products as my ONLY source of income. If the prices suggested are too low to sustain an income, I simply won't be able to develop further products, or even worse, won't be able to finish PRO-RENDER. So please quote the HIGHEST price you would expect to pay for a product such as PRO-RENDER. I will note every suggestion with great consideration. Also, please post any comments, questions or suggestions about PRO-RENDER, I don't mind if it's serious tech-talk or just to make conversation, go ahead and post! And finally, I would just like to say that I am working on some example renders produced using Bryce 5 with PRO-RENDER, and I will post them here as soon as possible.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Can't name a price without seeing how it looks. Look forward to seeing some samples of its abilities.

Sounds like a cool idea. I'd like to see some screenshots of the results before thinking of a price.

Screen shots, sample renders and a bit more information would be nice. This can't be a plug in to bryce? So uses BR5 files? The render engine is yours, or Bryces? SOrry, I just would like to know what the link is to Bryce and how intergrated the two would be. Your Artist homepage is a little empty, so we can't even tell who you are, or your abilities or anything. The website link you gave just gives me a grey screen with your embossed name. Do you have any more information you can toss us?

---------
Phillip Drawbridge
Website 
Facebook

Some samples would be great. J.

Yes, I agree, I would like to see some screenshots as well. I would also like to know the render times with some sort of comparison to light domes and different light set ups. As far as pricing, I'm not sure because I've never bought plugins for any of my graphics programs, and I don't know what the results look like, but my guestimate would be 75 USD or something (sorry if this is way off). However, if the results look promising, I'd definetly pay more, because GI in Bryce sounds awesome, and I could get rid of those cursed light structures.

First of all, I apologise for putting the link up so early. The idea was to get the link into my original announcement, so that it would be there for when the official PRO-RENDER homepage is completed. Believe me, the link will spring to life soon enough. In answer to the questions regarding .br5 files, the render engine, and intergration. I can tell you that because Bryce 5 does'nt allow for a plugin renderer, you're right in assuming it uses a .br5 file to set up the renderer. However the .br5 file alone is not enough to be able to use PRO-RENDER correctly. This is because PRO-RENDER uses a method that requires not only a VERY specific scene preset, but also modification of all rendered materials. The final element of PRO-RENDER is the documentation, which describes the undocumented abilities and methods to be learnt in order to allow the Bryce 5 render engine to perform PRO-RENDER abilities. The abilities of PRO-RENDER are already inherent in the Bryce 5 render engine, so in so many words, PRO-RENDER unlocks them. As far as intergration goes, it has perfect intergration with Bryce 5, because it is Bryce 5! I am working on some example renders, and will post them here as soon as possible. Thank's to everyone so far, and keep the questions and comments coming thick and fast!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

After reading this I think some clarification is needed. Is it the B5 render engine you are using or not? Do you load br5 files to then render? What exact tweaks to the file are you talking about? "... The final element of PRO-RENDER is the documentation, which describes the undocumented abilities and methods to be learnt in order to allow the Bryce 5 render engine to perform PRO-RENDER abilities..." This makes no sense, if you've documented the abilities and methods, then there isn't anything that's, 'undocumented'. And if the B5 render engine can do these things already, why would we need PRO-RENDER? ??????????????

Bryce Forum Coordinator....

Vision is the Art of seeing things invisible...

I think he means that we don't have access to all the Br5 renderer can do and PRO-RENDER unlocks these abilities that we can't normally get access to. Is that what you mean, do I win a cookie? 8) I agree with the rest here in wanting to see more of what you are trying to sell, with no images or render times or what have you, it's hard to find the actual goal posts. But I'm definately looking forward to what you've got to show us. 8) Catlin

yes show us some renders and the time they took can you also make bryce directx compatible? for better previews? am looking forward too for those pics.

for some free stuff i made
and for almost daily fotos

Ok let's see now, how best to explain... well first of all
I would like to clarify that when I said undocumented abilities, it was supposed to mean undocumented (until the release of PRO-RENDER), abilities. As far as the Bryce 5 render engine question goes, as I said earlier, Bryce 5 does'nt allow for a plugin renderer, so yes, it does use the Bryce 5 renderer. PRO-RENDER consists of .br5 setup files, compatible material presets, and documentation needed to describe the PRO-RENDER method of rendering.

In answer to the final question "why would we need PRO-RENDER?" There is really only one answer to that one, so here it goes...

Can you do this without PRO-RENDER!

I hope this has helped answer your questions. I can understand it being difficult to realise how this works, after all, until now, merchant stores for Bryce 5 products generally consist of sky, material, and scene presets.

There's a little more depth to this product than a mere preset, if you get my meaning. PRO-RENDER really does provide you with the abilities stated in my original post,
and the standard of lighting that can be achieved is far superior to the standard generally obtainable, I hope you`ll agree when I post some example renders.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Of course I'm with the other folks here, we definitely need more info and visuals. I kind of get the same take as Catlin, that you are saying that the abilities are presently within Bryce 5 but not enable but your render engine facilitates in enabling these options or switches and therefore taps into these locked abilities. Will the renderer do anything else other than render B5 files? I get the feeling that it inputs B5 scene files without the lighting setup which can then be setup in Pro-Render or does it import B5 lighting also? Can other geometries be imported from outside sources such as *.obj, *.dxf, or *.3ds? Does it provide for mapping coordinates and texturing, if so, is it a complex texturing system?

can we do what without Pro Render?..;) I'm rootin' for ya fella..but it's a sad fact of the times we live in that we tend to respond visually..hope the project goes well..but it would help your cause a lot more to show us comparison pics, etc., or show us things we can't do that it can..we'll be waiting, so take yer time..good luck.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

I think I get how it works,but bryce can be bought for under 100$ so if your product is like Brazil(3dsMax),or PixarRenderMAN then maybe half the price of the program(if really good 75$ maybe).So I take you just wrote coding for GI and light solutions that "adds" it into a br5 file which then gets reloaded into bryce and is then understanded by the bryce raytracer engine.If so cool, and about time really.One suggestion, Mac&PC compatible!

I eat babies.

Personally I would not pay anything for rendering techniques that one can teach themselves.

Stephen Ray

I'm sorry for not really asking this in my earlier post, but is there any noticable improvement in the renderings or the render time? Is just wondering if there is any improvement to the image or to the render time when compared with light domes. Does your program help the render time at all or does it look better than light dome lighting? I just want to know if there is some benefit besides not having to set up lights.

Light domes "fake" GI,he says his makes real GI,which means they are not "technics",but an actual render solution embeded into the br5 file that the raytracer can read(I assume that from how he described it).And yes real GI is better than a fake light dome.The only thing that might hold it back is the images,I say wait and see.Or let some of the good artists here who know about advanced lighting and GI to do some beta testing to show the forum what can be done.

I eat babies.

This sounds an awful lot like one of those stupid real-estate investment infomercials. A lot of circle-talking and not nearly enough information on what really needs to be done or what the real results are. And my guess is, all he's done is written and/or copied tutorials and setup files for things that we've been doing for ages. Unless he's somehow actually done some sort of real work...but i'm gonna be the cynic until we see some results or we get a LOGICAL and COHERENT explanation.

@Slakker-I'm with you.All the stuff I said is "based of assumptions" of what I thought he was "trying" say.But how would he sell it here if it was a fake product.I assumed it was an actual application utility that would "add a render solution" much like other programs such as Brazil for Max.If it doesnt do that,its fake then.

I eat babies.

Hay guys, lets give this member a break. He said he was going to provide all the information plus images so we can see for ourselves, so lets just wait and see. He just wants to see what the market has to offer. He may decide it's not worth his time depending on the feedback. On the other hand, this might just be the best thing that's come along for Bryce in a long time. Patience my children. :)

Well hey, all I can say is, it's about time! Yeaho! Besta luck to you! Personally, I think everyone's bein kinda harsh on ya ;P

I think some were disappointed when it turned out not to be the "Good news for Bryce 5 users" that we've been waiting to hear, i.e. Bryce 6.

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

Let me Beta test...I am more then willing to give feedback...Whether it good or Bad you will get feedback...

I think the problem here is that you've jumped the gun a little. It would have been far better and easier on you if you had waited another day or so in order to be able get your website up and running and post some samples with your good news. Personally, I'm willing to forget this post and give you the benefit of the doubt.

---------
Phillip Drawbridge
Website 
Facebook

My problem is what you said about "compatible material presets." Does this mean you can only use materials that you provide with the program? If thats the case, I don't like that idea at all.

In the first instance I thank you for the advertisement verily this important event to all of us .... Secondly when are we capable of a purchase of this pro-render.... Thirdly and very important !!!!!!!! Is you capable of laying enterface picture to us for pro-render ..... We wait for you impatiently for we show this beautiful render Nawaf 3D

In the first instance I thank you for the advertisement verily this important event to all of us .... Secondly when are we capable of a purchase of this pro-render.... Thirdly and very important !!!!!!!! Is you capable of laying enterface picture to us for pro-render ..... We wait for you impatiently for we show this beautiful render Nawaf 3D

Just hope he's not tryin to sell time shares,(Geez i hate those guys)

pumeco wrote: "PRO-RENDER consists of .br5 setup files, compatible material presets, and documentation needed to describe the PRO-RENDER method of rendering." So what you are saying is that you have discovered undocumented Bryce5 render techniques/processes, and you are proposing to sell the knowledge along with accompanying Bryce files and presets. I see two related major obstacles to this being a viable product: 1/ The Bryce user community has a long history of free and open exchange of tips and techniques. It will quite likely be somewhat hostile to being charged for knowledge - especially if that knowledge is inspired by information already freely exchanged in the community... 2/ Once the knowledge, files and presets are released, they (or close variations) will very likely be openly exchanged - perfectly legally - within the community (especially given the above). As was discovered in the Poser community (and stressed by Curious Labs, the owners of the Poser program) you cannot copyright program settings. For example, Poser light sets are not copyrightable because they are purely program settings. This doesn't stop people selling packages consisting of program settings, and it doesn't stop people buying them. But there is absolutely nothing to stop anyone giving the settings away. The Poser user base is perhaps unique in having a great many people willing to pay for what they already own... If "PRO-RENDER" is merely inherent Bryce settings (and knowledge thereof), you cannot copyright it (nor patent it). There is nothing to stop you selling a package comprised of your knowledge of Bryce settings, plus Bryce files and Bryce presets using those settings - but likewise there is nothing to stop anyone posting the knowledge for free and releasing files and presets using those settings. The only copyrightable items in your product (as described by you) are the order of words in the documentation (but not the knowledge the words convey) and any original materials you might include within the files and presets. You ask if we can do this without "PRO-RENDER". The answer is almost certainly yes - as soon as you tell us how. Given what your proposed product consists of, and given that you probably cannot effectively control it, I suggest an alternative marketing strategy. Release the concept free of charge in the form of an online tutorial (with downloadable files) published on your website, along with a donation option. If you are the person clever enough to finally turn Bryce into a workable advanced renderer, then you can use this to promote yourself and your company. It would be excellent publicity. And I've no doubt Bryce users would be grateful. If the concept delivers as described, and with no major problems or limitations, I would gladly donate, say, 20 dollars - so long as I wasn't forced to. Rather than the possibility of resentment and hostility, there would be the certainty of respect and loyalty. Either way, you won't get rich with "PRO-RENDER". Please accept the above as it is intended - positive, constructive advice. :-)

I'm wondering why would such a powerful feature be undocumented? That's like selling a Ferrari but not explaining how to get out of first gear. Which makes me think (hope) that Pro-Render is something more than just hidden settings.

---------
Phillip Drawbridge
Website 
Facebook

By the way, some members here are already producing scenes not a million miles away from what you describe. This straight Bryce render: is lit entirely without lights (less than an hour to render, even with refractive material). The illumination comes entirely from the sky, and light from that bounces off of the materials onto other materials - a sort of radiosity. This uses techniques I've already discussed in this forum. I haven't developed further because I came up against brick walls that I couldn't work around. I would be most pleased to be able to do this sort of thing under all circumstances with no grief.

Attached Link: Who am I?

Well, PJF, if you start a promotional thread , look at the attached link. No 'real' light sources involved. J.

Mine wasn't intended as personal promotion, derjimi; it was intended to promote the point that Bryce users are already exploring render techniques beyond those documented. Incidentally, my image above is a True Ambient render. There are no diffuse or reflective materials; only ambient ones.

I dunno,........I'm with the others,.....I'd like to see some examples and documentation. I think the best news for Bryce 5 users would be Bryce 6, or maybe a Bryce 5 Pro, like the makers of Vue d'Esprit did. The basic code needs to be in part rewritten to include true Radiosity, G.I., multi-threading(the abilty to use more than one processor), the ability to use third party rendering engines,....etc.

"Any club that would have me as a member is probably not worth joining" -Groucho Marx

Bryce doesn't have a plug-in architecture, does it? So there is no way this guy wrote code to force Bryce to calculate a radiosity solution. Without modifying or adding to the original source code, recompiling and then redistributing the entire program, it can't happen. Just saying something is so doesn't make it so. Not to sound too skeptical here, but this whole thing looks like smoke and mirrors and that you Bryce folks are being led by the nose.

Until there is more info forthcoming all I see are a lot of promises and no details.

Actually if this is pluggin or mod for Bryce you should ask a couple of talented (erhmmm) artists who know Bryce (hrmmm) very well, to beta test this. Then those images and the testomonies would go a long way to selling this to the commmunity. I would gladly offer my services and processor time to try something like a mod or a pluggin. If however they are techniques I am curious as to why you would charge for them.

Help! I've just read the comments posted in this thread,
and I was wondering, what did I do wrong. Was it wrong of me
to think that the Bryce community would be HAPPY to read
about a new product. OK, I posted a link to what WILL soon be
the official homepage for PRO-RENDER, perhaps a bad idea, but I
have explained why I did this, and again I apologise. I am a
NEW member, and I obviously have a lot to learn, when it comes
down to how to conduct myself in a forum like this, so please
bear with me, I never make the same mistake twice!

It seems to be getting pretty heated in this thread, and I think
I know why, so I will make this a lengthy post. First of all I
will try to cool things down a little by explaining my plans,
then I will answer the questions.

Now then, you're probably wondering WHO? HOW? WHY?

So here it goes...

WHO?

My name is Len, a shy 30 year old SINGLE male ( hello girls! )
I love 3D, and have a passion for Bryce. I am NOT a Real-Estate setup
as suggested by Slakker, nor have I copied tutorials by others,
why on earth would I want to do that? To prove this, Slakker,
it would be great if you could post the URL's of the tutorials you
know of. If you do, I would be only too pleased to check them out.
And if, in the VERY unlikely event I should find a tutorial that uses
the same method as PRO-RENDER, I will make sure that everyone reading
this thread gets the chance to see it, and I'll release PRO-RENDER
into the "FREE STUFF" pages of Renderosity, how`s that!

HOW?

A lot of frustration, 100's of rendering hours, and an extreme
amount of perseverence. I wanted GI from Bryce 5, and refused
to give up until I got it. That's just as well, because believe me,
when PRO-RENDER is released, Bryce 5 users worldwide, WILL be
creating images with PRO-RENDER, no matter what the non-believers
may say, do, or think.

WHY

I gave up self-employment as a computer technician, so that I can
develop products for the 3D community, and hopefully earn just enough
money to enable me to do what I love. So, PRO-RENDER will be my
first product.
I hope that gives everyone a better idea of who I am, why I set up
pumeco, and what my intentions are. I am new here, and the last thing
I want to do is upset, or alienate anyone. I want to be liked,
not disliked. I might be new to forums, but I'm not new to 3D,
so believe me when I say, PRO-RENDER might not sound like the most
exciting product for Bryce 5, but without a doubt, it's THE most
important product release for Bryce 5 ever! It's just a shame that
some people will never realise just HOW important GI can be in a
render, and therefore how important PRO-RENDER actually is.

Now that we have that out of the way, I'll answere the questions.

No then, the best way to do this I think, is to elaborate on what
PRO-RENDER consists of and how it works. I think that should answer
the questions put forward so far.

PRO-RENDER should work on PC or MAC, I see no reason why not.

PRO-RENDER is NOT a Plug-In renderer, or a seperate application.
Nor, did I write a Bryce 5 renderer recoding routine into a .br5
file to add a new solution.

PRO-RENDER compatible materials can be made by simply modifying
any standard material preset, which means that all of your current
material preset's will work with PRO-RENDER, no problem!

PRO-RENDER does not have it's own interface. It does not need one
because as I said in an earlier post, PRO-RENDER consists of .br5
files, material presets, and documentation. None of which would
require it's own interface.

PRO-RENDER images will be more accurate than the use of light domes.
There are two reasons for this. The first reason is that light domes
do not allow the surfaces in the scene to reflect INDIRECT light.
For example, Imagine a room with pure white walls and ceiling.
Add to this, a bright red carpet. Now, in a real life situation,
what would happen is that the white parts of the room would look
ever so slightly pinkish, because of the ambient red light being
given off by the carpet. Well, PRO-RENDER will simulate that
very effect. The second reason for PRO-RENDER being more accurate
is that when you use a light dome, shadow bands appear around the
objects in the scene. The less lights you use, the more apparent
the shadow bands become. There is no such problem when you are using
PRO-RENDER, because with TRUE Global Illumination, light is supplied
from all directions. So you can simply drop objects into your scene
and they will be illuminated naturally by their surroundings, objects
themselves, become a source of light when INDIRECT light bounces off
them, and incredibly natural shadows are created automatically by
this effect.

Keep the questions coming!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Ah....never mind.

Message edited on: 06/21/2004 20:13

*"For example, Imagine a room with pure white walls and ceiling. Add to this, a bright red carpet. Now, in a real life situation, what would happen is that the white parts of the room would look ever so slightly pinkish, because of the ambient red light being given off by the carpet. Well, PRO-RENDER will simulate that very effect."*

Yup, been simulating radiosity with True Ambience for a while. Lots of problems, but the basis is there.

Does "PRO-RENDER" use True Ambience?

OK...I will Betatest...Let me know when ya need us...Free is awesome...Lets Bryce it on....I really dont think anyone is MAD at you they just are VERY EXCITED about something Helping us BRYCERS out right GUYS and GAlS...

So far, no good. You've typed a lot, but given us exactly zero of the following : 1. Screenshots. 2. Screenshots. 3. Screenshots. So, nobody really believes you. Also, many of us, at least 100 people here at Rendersosity, are very deep inside the Bryce rendering engine. I'm not saying it's possible we missed something important, but quite unlikely. I don't find it offensive that you think we're idiots, because I happen to know for FACT that I AM an idiot. But I also think you're an idiot. So, welcome to idiocy? Glad you could join us. So, post some screenshots and explain yourself, or join the countless ranks of idiots who type a lot. The key to typing a lot is to use lots of commas. Never underestimate the power of commas! Dramtic pauses, lists, and the like, are what make commas more powerful than periods. I vote for commas, every time.

I tend to concur with Folypro... Don't think anyone is mad at you by any means.... More excited I think, as Folypro said, about something happening to help us Brycers. 8)

There are 10 kinds of people: Those who know binary, and those who don't. 

A whiner is about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest.

I'm pulling for you man,But what you are saying is VERY vaque,and without evidence you ain't getting nuthin' from these people.
Also the fact that you jumped the gun on the website announcement,doesn't weigh well in your favor.
If I go to some website that is supposed to give me info,and all I see is a logo.........well I hope you see what I mean.
Oh yeah did I mention,
SCREENSHOTS !?
I mean if it works as well as you say,you MUST have used it already,you MUST have one render that you have done with it,POST the damn thing and make us all shut our mouths. lol

Mark

Message edited on: 06/22/2004 08:32

Message edited on: 06/22/2004 08:32

Hi everyone! I've decided that PRO-RENDER is going to be FREE!
But before I say how and when, I wish you would all take the time to
read what I have to say on the matter, at least grant me that wish.

Here goes...

Right, first of all, I need you all to know, that when I post a reply
to the posts made in this thread, I come here to have a read,
and then go OFFLINE to prepare and write a reply. The problem with this
method is that inbetween the time I read the replies, and the time I
get back to Renderosity to post my own reply, even more people have
asked questions. So obviously, your questions might not get answered in
the reply DIRECTLY after your question. Whenever this may be the case,
please bear with me, I will answer ALL questions one way or another.
I think this needs to be pointed out because of one comment inparticular,

i.e. "Ah....never mind." from RubiconDigital.

I was'nt ignoring you, I would never do that without good reason.
It`s just that I had'nt read your question before I posted my previous reply.
So, here is an answer to your question. No, Bryce does'nt have a plugin
architecture, or at least, as far as I know, it does'nt. And as described
in my previous reply, no, I did'nt write a new Radiosity solution.
Also, as far as your comment "...you Bryce folks are being led by the nose."
I think that's a little unfair to say the least. As far as I am concerned,
I'm just doing my best to publicise a product which I thought would be
of interest, and to answer questions in the best way I can.

Up until VERY recently, I was not a member of Renderosity, and as such,
I had no Idea of just HOW passionate some members are about Bryce.
The only tutorials I could find on Global Illumination where found
on "non-membership" websites, which where found through web searches etc.
During that time I found the following methods:

1 - To use weak shadowless area lights.

2 - To use light domes/planes etc.

3 - To use full-on blurry reflections.

So, I set about trying to better the situation by developing my own method.
What I came up with is PRO-RENDER.

However, because of what has been pointed out to me in this thread,
I realise that I`ve MASSIVELY underestimated the abilities which have
been under development by you guys. Without Renderosity, I felt like
a loner, and just a nobody who has a great interest in something, which
would bore the pants off the avarage Bryce user. I had the impression
that people would'nt really be that bothered about such highly technical
matters as Global Illumination, but if I could crack it, the results would
be welcomed with open arms.

Well, now I can understand where I've gone wrong here. Because after
I'd read that post by PJF giving advice, I decided I may well have to
change my strategy. So, streight away, I searched the name PJF, and it
threw up threads which can only be described as MINDBLOWING.
Well, PJF and the others in the associated threads, REALLY know their
stuff. Being dropped into a thread like that was absolutely amazing
reading for me. I only wish I had known about the place sooner.

So, the point being, I think you guys saw me as someone who had come
along, only to make some quick money out of a re-assembly of the work
you guys had been working on for ages. In reality, that's simply
not true. I would have loved to have been around here from the very
start of those threads. I would have been only too happy to give input
on those matters, just as I would love to do so now, and in the future.
That is of course, if I am welcome here, after this unfortunate mess.
I hope so.

The PRO-RENDER method uses true ambience, just as some of your methods do.
But after reading some of the threads, I have to say that PRO-RENDER
seems to differ in method in some respects. For example, in post number-31,
PJF shows an image, and goes on to say that he has'nt yet been able to
develop it any further. Well PJF, I think PRO-RENDER is possibly the
method you are seeking! PRO-RENDER does have it's quirks, but it does
render really clean'n'bright looking images with minimal grain,
and no leakage. I've also got some extra information on control of
aperture, film grain, and abberation that might interest you, and others.

Returning to the main matter now, I totally agree with what has been
said, regarding the marketing strategy behind PRO-RENDER. Knowing what
I know now, I would feel bad about "selling" the product, even though it
is my own work. I'm sure everyone here is well aware that scene files,
material presets, and tutorials are all valid merchant products
on their own, but not it seems, when they are packaged together as a
product, which is essentially what PRO-RENDER consists of.

No, I see the points being made here, and would like to make things right!

As I stated to Slakker, I would make PRO-RENDER available for free.
As a man of my word, that's exactly what I'm going to do. Even though
I'm not sure the methods are the same, NO WAY would I try to "sell"
PRO-RENDER, and never would have in the first place, if I'd known then,
what I know now.

So, that leaves just one more thing to decide, that being, how best to
distribute and promote this now FREE product. I suggested, the "Free Stuff"
area or Renderosity already, and that should be great, but I think I have a
much better Idea, and it's an idea which again, I would like some feedback on.

What I propose is this...

The website for my business (www.pumeco.com) has been paid for in advance.
But now, because of the change in strategy, it would be idle for a long time,
at least until the completion of the Poser projects I'm developing.
So, why waste it? It could still be the homepage of PRO-RENDER, but with
a totally different strategy.

What I would like to do is dedicate space and bandwidth to PRO-RENDER
on www.pumeco.com However, I would like PRO-RENDER to become a sort of
evolving "open project" as opposed to JUST a product. The name PRO-RENDER
would become public property, to be used as a sort of "by-word" for
anything related to serious Bryce rendering, whether it be files, knowledge,
tips, tricks, tutorials, or pics. Therefore, PRO-RENDER becomes a product
of the best of everything any member has to offer. Just as people might
think of Renderosity when they think about 3D art, people could eventually
think of PRO-RENDER when they think about Bryce rendering, visit the
PRO-RENDER homepage, and hopefully get what they want.

Heres an example of how it could work...

The options included on the official PRO-RENDER homepage might go
something like this...

HOME - NEWS - GALLERY - TUTORIALS - SUBMIT - DOWNLOAD - LINKS

HOME -
This would be the welcome page, and could be used to describe what
PRO-RENDER is all about to newbies etc.

NEWS -
This is where there could be all the latest announcements about the evolving
PRO-RENDER. The announcements could be made by ANYONE who contributes
anything to PRO-RENDER.

GALLERY -
This is where images created with the help of PRO-RENDER, could be displayed.
Images not only by contributors, but also by general downloaders who
have made use of PRO-RENDER in their image.

TUTORIALS -
PRO-RENDER tutorials could go here.

SUBMIT -
This is where people could make a contribution to the PRO-RENDER download.
(Files, Knowledge, Tips, Tricks, Pics)

DOWNLOAD -
This is where people could get the very latest download of PRO-RENDER
for FREE. The download could be updated when needed, as methods and knowledge
evolve. The download could consist of a compressed folder containing
setup files, documentation, and more (all public property).

LINKS -
This is where links to other websites could go.

Well, there you have it, I would consider this for sure, if I thought there
was sufficient enthusiasm for it.

So, I think now, I will give around a week or so to see what happens here.
What I see when I return to this forum, will ultimately make my decisions
for me.

As far as questions go, I apologise for not answering them all at the moment.
I WILL answer them, I promise. Some test screenshots will follow no matter
what happens!

Oh yeh, it was suggested that I thought you where idiot's. Hell, you really
have got the wrong impression. I think it was that "VERY unlikely" bit,
am I right? Well if it is, then I can only hope that, after reading this post,
you will realise it was because I was aware ONLY of those tutorials I
mentioned earlier. That's what made me think it was "VERY unlikely" the
knowledge was out there. So, here's another apology, please don't think
like that, it was'nt meant to give that impression, sorry!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Did someone say Free? Now we're talking, although you probably could have got away with a time limited demo or going shareware.

I think the problem is that you could write an entire novel about what you plan to do, but we are artists, a picture is what we understand. It's ALL we understand. A picture to us says a million words.

As for the emotional response. We are a passionate bunch and Bryce is our religion. Anything new that comes along, we are going to be very suspicious and reluctant to accept it without question.

The problem really comes down to our love of and frustration with Bryce and you've dangled a carrot in front of our noses, but you have forgotten the carrot.

I can understand that you are very proud and excited about what you have achieved, you've just jumped the gun slightly. Once you can let us see it working, all will be forgiven (as long as it does what you've promised) and at that point you will be welcomed with open arms into our very tight community and I will be the first to pat you on the back.

---------
Phillip Drawbridge
Website 
Facebook

We look forward to tinkering with your package and taking it for a spin. (I still have bryce in my machine and do play with it and you have me intrigued).

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

ooh sounds interesting. can we gets some screenshots?

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(")(")This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

I think you've made a good decision, Len, and kudos for thinking it through and not reacting badly to the passions displayed here. I'm pretty excited that you might have overcome the difficulties I was stumped by. The major limitations to True Ambience I couldn't overcome were these: > Mesh surfaces (3d models, not Bryce primitives) lit by True Ambience would not 'smooth'. They always showed faceting, no matter what setting I tried. This meant a potentially perfect 'area' light suitable for beautiful soft lighting of human figures was rendered (ahem) useless. > True Ambience really messed up the appearance of some Bryce boolean combinations. > A surface under True Ambience could only act as a fairly dim source of light, and with abrupt falloff. > Transparent materials had peculiar properties under True Ambient lighting. This lot meant that True Ambience couldn't live up to its potential - and that potential was very high indeed. My explorations led me to believe that the Bryce programmers had developed a giant killing render process, but hadn't had time to incorporate it for release.

Now we see a little bit more light on the subject. From my understanding you didn't actually create a new product but a "new" method of achieving high end program abilities. Similar to all the threads we have here on GI, Fake HDRI, etc. Look forward to seeing how you got around some of the limitations.

Just to clear the air pumeco, I'd written something else and then decided not to post it. Rather than just delete my response, I edited it and put the "never mind" in. No big deal. If you've got something worthwhile to distribute, I'm sure you'll have a loyal following.

Aye, and these days it's better to consider one's own self an idiot than to dip into massive egotism and self-centered stupidity... So I wish you well, and expect to see more from you soon, and more renders. PJF has helped a lot of us. Also check out Ornlu, Incarnadine, and AgentSmith's names, in the forums, and you'll find a wealth of information on Bryce's rendering techniques, as well as links to other users who also break out of the normal Bryce renderings.

"I would have been only too happy to give input on those matters, just as I would love to do so now, and in the future. That is of course, if I am welcome here, after this unfortunate mess. I hope so." As far as I am concerned.... anyone that has a passion for Bryce is more than welcome here. We truely are a very tight bunch of passionate Brycers. Everybody's input here is worth something. New people are welcome and encouraged to keep coming back. Don't shy away from us. As far as Pro Render is concerned... I am seriously interested in checking it out. I think that you have a very cool idea about promoting and maintaining it on the website. Also I think it is great that you are going to make it a free product.

There are 10 kinds of people: Those who know binary, and those who don't. 

A whiner is about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest.

LOL shadowdragonlord, with statements like that you are going to make me blush!

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

Have you all heard that DAZ have bought the rights to Bryce and are going to develope it into a real Bryce 6. 8) BryceTech is also one of the Bryce forum mods over there too. 8) Happy, happy, happy..................and so on and so forth. 8P Catlin

PRO-RENDER Sample 1 - WIDESCREEN TV Lights = 0 Virtual Exposure = 1/1 Actual RPP = 256 Virtual RPP = 256 Render Time = 1H:42M:16S on Celeron 2.6 This image is monochromatic to demonstrate the PRO-RENDER GI method clearly. More images will follow shortly.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

PRO-RENDER Sample 2 - MOONLIT ROOM Lights = 1 ( Sun ) Virtual Exposure = 4/1 Actual RPP = 256 Virtual RPP = 1024 Render Time = 22H:10M:19S on Celeron 2.6 This image is monochromatic to demonstrate the PRO-RENDER GI method clearly. More images will follow shortly.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Right, first of all, thanks for making me feel welcome with those recent replies. I'm pleased about it, and look forward to some interesting discussions with you all. I am really VERY proud to become a member of your long list of idiots :-) Well there you have it, the first two renders from PRO-RENDER. I know... You've seen it all before right? Well don't be too sure about that fellow idiots! I say this because, that thread I mentioned in an earlier post got me thinking. You know, that image of the sphere being illuminated by a bright white object. Well, that image said to me, "God, they have to be using a different method to that of PRO-RENDER". And why? Because in PRO-RENDER, that effect is "i think" impossible. As far as I can tell, PRO-RENDER simply won't allow for that kind of effect. Of course you could simulate it, but you would have to use an "actual" light source to do so with PRO-RENDER. You've told me of the problems you members have come up against during your journey through the Bryce render engine. Well, you're not the only ones you know! I have come accross the same problems as well. As far as the "smoothing" problem goes, I am about to try out a new theory I have about this problem, I think I've cracked it! But don't hold your breath, you could well turn blue. As far as transparency goes, I have to say I don't recall there being a problem there. In fact, transparency seems to be the least of the troubles I had. And finally, the lack of power with illumination. Well I'm glad to say it's well and truly "sorted" in PRO-RENDER, that's assuming you mean what I think you mean. Next, I will recreate that image posted here of the radiosity test room, to see how the PRO-RENDER method handles it. That should be interesting! I will do two versions, and they will be the next images to be uploaded. Until then... see you all soon, and thanks again!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

PS: GREAT news about the DAZ/Bryce partnership. Let's hope they update the renderer eh!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Hi Pumeco, thank you very, very much for posting screenshots at last. This looks mighty fine! I'm curious to see your next postings. J.

Those are very smooth looking renders, with nice even light fall off in the corners. This looks very promising. pumeco, I summarised the variation of True Ambience I've been using a couple of pages ahead. There should be enough info there to give you an idea of the differences between that and your technique. Wow, a 22 hour render. Hope that's a typo! ;-)

looks promising, very clean renders there :) Can't wait to see your radiosity room.

(_/)
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(")(")This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

you should put those renders in your gallery here ;) you'll get even more feedback that way I think :)

(_/)
(='.'=)
(")(")This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

A picture worth a thousand words! Thank you and very well done.

Very impressive!

Those renders are nice, but still they are nothing spectacular compared to the works of countless others here, Pumeco. No discouragement intended, only honesty. Also, your 22 hour render time makes them just as obnoxious as any other techniques I've seen, and would be entirely useless for animation purposes, which is the purpose of 3D graphics in the first place. Granted, we all do stills, and love them! But the only reason we do stills REALLY is because we don't have the computing power to animate. Let us hope that Bryce 6 includes some of the other mainstream rendering enhancements, or at least the ability to define render properties per object or something... I'm sorry, Pumeco, but so far I'm still not impressed. That said, both of your renders are MONOCHROME!!! Why?

Shadow, the reason I'm impressed is do to the lack of lights (save for the sun on the second one) and no use of light domes. Unless he is pulling our legs, Bryce cannot look that good without volumetrics or light domes.

.

I would really like to get my grubby little paws on this Pro Render and take it for a whirl. Although as usual it looks like your way of doing things pumeco still has a heavy price tag on render times. But it's always good to learn of new ways to do things and this is what Bryce artists have been doing for years, making the impossible happen in a program that shouldn't be able to. lol 8) Catlin

PJF: Thanks for pointing out that thread to me, but hey, I've been there already and left you a comment, go check! The remarks in my previous post where in fact, partly to respond to the findings you've put forward there. After everything I've read so far, it's obvious now that, the method you are using is correct, it's just not shall we say, "fine tuned". Your radiosity room sample alone, tells me why you are'nt "quite" getting what you want. I have'nt got round to it yet, but when I do recreate your radiosity room, I have a feeling that it will indeed display the same traits as your render, BUT to a much lesser extent. Whilst on the subject of method, it's great that you posted the information about volumetric material. If you recall, I suggested in my previous post that glowing objects don't work with the PRO-RENDER method. Well, thanks to your volumetric tip, I think that perhaps it could be possible after all. I have'nt tried it yet, but I'm pretty sure it will work, let's hope so! shadowdragonlord: I'm sorry to hear you're not impressed. Please know that I don't see myself as an artist, I realise I have a LONG way to go before I get close to the standard of work here, and as such, I've no intention of uploading those images to the galleries. The only purpose of the images is to demonstrate the standard of illumination accuracy that can be obtained from PRO-RENDER. You ask why the images are monochromatic. Well, basically I wanted the first images to demonstrate how smooth and even the light distribution can be, without colour detracting from the effect. Please know however, that although the images may "look" monochromatic, thay are in fact colour images, and no desaturation or colour balancing was performed on those images. And now a word about those render times. I'm afraid the render time specified for MOONLIT ROOM was NOT a typo. However, PLEASE bear in mind that the image was rendered at a MASSIVE virtual RPP of 1024, and remember, that's RAYS PER PIXEL, not PIXELS WIDE. Based on my knowledge, I would say that if the same image where to be rendered at 256 RPP ( Bryce's maximum EFFECTIVE RPP ), I reckon it would take a LOT less time, say 5-6 hours max. When you consider that the result of the first image took only 1H:42M:16S, it's not too bad really. At this point I think I had better clear the air about animation with PRO-RENDER. ...forget it! Unless you've got half-a-dozen computers purring away to the rhythm of Bryce Lightning, you won't be animating your PRO-RENDER scenes. PRO-RENDER was developed for accuracy, not speed, stills YES, animation NO WAY! Finally I would just like to say thanks to everyone who has commented. I have started work on the PRO-RENDER manual, and hope that many of you will give it a go when the package is released. Regards, Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Here are some other URL's on PRO-RENDER in alphabetical order:

3D Commune:
http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/forum.mv?Bryce+read+8912215408

DAZ Productions:
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=5331

Renderotica (ADULTS ONLY):
http://www.renderotica.com/postt2560.html

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Well thank you for painting our forum and Renderosity in general in such a bad light. We may not have been willing to give you money for something we can all create ourselves with a little bit of patience, but we probably would have looked at whatever else you developed along the road with your programming skills, and perhaps even made a purchase. I'm so sorry you feel you were so badly done by here, when all I can see are questions, suggestions, and pointers to what has been done already. Nowhere do I see people with pitchforks and flaming torches trying to slay you for suggesting an improvement for Bryce. All those folk who I've read tonight, saying what a cold hearted bunch we are, cannot have been in here at the Bryce forum lately, perhaps they're talking about the Poser forum, but I certainly don't believe that they or you have the right idea about who we all are. This was the first thread I read when I came in here tonight 'cos I thought you would have more images or whatever to show us, but I am now feeling totally dissappointed by what I have read. Catlin

In response to catlin mc ( post number 72 )

First of all, I have NEVER painted Renderosity or it's forums in a bad light. EVERY reply I have EVER made on ANY site has been given with GREAT consideration. I would urge anyone in doubt, to go and check out the threads on the other sites, and please know that I am NOT responsible for the feelings of OTHERS towards Renderosity or it's forums. If you read my replies carefully, you will see that any references to Renderosity have been made because I have been prompted to do so, and those references have always been in good humour. Also, I try to be as fair as I can by posting links to other website forums ALWAYS in alphabetical order, to show ZERO preferences.

It became obvious in the early days of these threads, that PRO-RENDER had become a VERY controversial product, and that I must make a decision on it's future.

I made the decision to complete PRO-RENDER, and I made that decision, secure in the knowledge that no financial reward would be coming my way. May I point out that, this is NOT the sort of decision one would expect to hear from a man with BUSINESS ONLY logic. I decided to continue PRO-RENDER because I love Bryce, I'm proud of what I've developed, and I want to share it with other Bryce users.

I am consistantly being informed that PRO-RENDER is some sort of re-working of other peoples work. Well, if that's the case, and you're minds are made up on that, you won't be wanting to download PRO-RENDER then will you.
The best I can say on that matter is this: If you're all happy with the excellent work that has already been done here ( and so you should be ), I am happy for you all.
However, I am not prepared to sit back and watch my own work being ripped apart by the childish attitude of some members here. It's plain to see from the posts here, that any PAINTING that's been done, has in fact been done by a select few members on this very site. The impressions that other sites' members have about Renderosity are based on what THEY read here, so please, even the thought that I alone could generate these impressions is absolutely laughable! No, I'm afraid people already had their own impressions of Renderosity LONG before I came along, now I wonder why that could be? A few lessons to be learnt here maybe, so perhaps this thread is a blessing in disguise.

Just because I'm proud of what I've developed, that does not make me an egotist. In fact, as far as I can see, the only egotism displayed in this thread has been by others, NOT myself. Please know that members of Renderosity are NOT the only people with a love of advanced rendering for Bryce at heart. There are OTHER sites and OTHER people, and it actually IS possible for others to have developed their knowledge WITHOUT help from Renderosity or it's members. If anyone doubt's this, then perhaps they had better look closer to home as far as egotism goes. I'm not sure if that SINGLE SHY MALE line has given people the wrong impression that I might be a pushover. But if it has, then you have a LOT to learn. I might be shy around females, but I'm certainly not shy in general, and I'm no pushover, especially in business.

I apologise to the members with a GENUINE need for PRO-RENDER, that you've had to read through large amounts of text in order to get very little information. It's an unfortunate fact that most of my text has been written in order to rectify suspicions and accusations. To you members, all I can say is please bear with me, I am doing my best to get PRO-RENDER online. But having to constantly write lengthy explanations like this tends to slow things down a little. Oh, and by the way, I write a lot here because I CARE!

I truly believe that I have written enough text in this thread to explain away peoples suspicions and accusations. That fact alone, should be enough to make people see that I really DO care about Renderosity and it's members. So, starting from this post onward, I am simply going to ignore ALL suspicions and accusations. I will now, reply only to CONSTRUCTIVE posts, good or bad.

Finally, I hope to get those radiosity room images up shortly, so that members can compare them to the methods used here on Renderosity, I'm sure that you can all decide then, weather or not you will be downloading PRO-RENDER.
Either way, it WILL be released.

Regards,

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Darn it, the ebot stopped sending me update messages to this thread, so I've missed a few days worth. First off, Len, I apologise for any part I may have inadvertently played in your hostile reception here. I tend to post mostly formal 'sounding' text, and that was the mode of my first post above. Looking back at how the thread was going at that stage, I probably should have made more of an effort at relaying positivism. I also said something that might be seen as an implication that you have merely developed the works of others. This was not my intent (which was only to point out that it wouldn't be well received if that was the case), and I apologise if that was how it was read. For what it's worth, I completely accept, without reservation, that you have developed your techniques by yourself. I can also see that I might have come off as a 'bruised ego' by seemingly hijacking your thread with my images. Again, not my intent - and sorry if that's how it appeared. If you've read through my earlier posts on True Ambience, etc, you should have noticed that I talk in terms of my exploring what the Bryce programmers put in there, rather than being any sort of genius myself. I'm pretty 'invisible' around here anyway, and you certainly shouldn't feel the need to tiptoe around my ego. For other folks here, I request a cool off. This PRO-RENDER thingie has massive potential, and is too important for Bryce art to be risked by pettiness brought about by misunderstanding. Remember, when Len first announced PRO-RENDER, he was in professional product presentation mode. He was promoting his product formally, not just being 'one of the lads'. This also meant he couldn't be as forthcoming as he might otherwise like to have been, in terms of sharing knowledge, etc. Well, now, he's going to be presenting his work for free. He's obviously proud of his work (let's hope justifiably so, for all our benefit) and wants to release it all in one hit, on his own site, on his own terms. That might appear 'egotistical' in isolation, but given that he is coming from the disappointment of realising the commercial potential is limited; I not only think it's OK, I think it's entirely appropriate. If PRO-RENDER works out without major limitations, we are looking at global illumination / radiosity, plus more - right now - for free - in Bryce5. Finally, without even paying for a version upgrade, we'll be up there with the 'big boys'. So, c'mon, are we for winning or are we for whining? ;-)

Onto 'technical' stuff (which I would have continued with if I'd known the thread was still active). Heh, "aren't quite" getting what I want(ed) in the radiosity room render doesn't quite explain it. It was driving me mad. The basis - surfaces bouncing light off each other - was there, but one side of a cube primitive would hardly reflect at all, while after rotation, the other side would reflect like crazy. Then a box would 'leak' light, so I'd try putting another box inside it, and so on. That whole scene was a 'fix', in the sense that every material and object had to be tweaked individually to get somewhere near the look of the "Cornell Box" render it was supposed to look like. http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~henrik/images/cbox.html It was all True Ambience, but nowhere near cut the mustard (and needed a lot more than 'fine tuning' ;-)). It wasn't a case of being able to apply consistent settings in a logical manner. The Venus probe image was much more successful and straightforward. I spent more time on the atmospheric effects than I needed to spend on the True Ambience. Having some clue as to what's involved, I can honestly say that I'm very impressed indeed with your renders above. They may not be very exciting images in themselves (which is perhaps behind some others' reactions), but the way the light behaves is way ahead of anything I could achieve. The falloff in the corners is beautiful, very realistic (and usefully illustrated by the mono renders). I note with some wry amusement the nifty 'caustic' reflections off of the reflective materials in your scenes. I spent a lot of time trying to convince folks that there was a form of caustics available in Bryce, so it's nice to see it illustrated so cleanly here.

I'm intrigued that you had no problems with transparent materials. The issue I couldn't resolve was that they picked up an unwanted partial reflective property even when there was zero reflective level set. As shown by the right hand sphere in the pic above, there was a weird combination of reflection and transparency that was neither fully one nor the other. The only way I could get rid of the reflective element was to disable reflections overall in the render options dialog. This obviously meant that the other sphere would have lost all its reflection. Not very satisfactory.

This is an interesting thread. I would like to see Pro_Render's version of the Cornel Box. TMG

Now then PJF, what's all this then! Come on, you don't seriously believe my previous post was aimed at you, do you?
For what it's worth, I consider you a friend here at Renderosity, and HOPE that you have posted something when I log-on here. After reading your recent post's, I was shocked that you thought I where pointing the finger at you,

...no way man, NO WAY!

I wasn't even pointing the finger at Catlin, even though it was Catlin's recent post's here and on 3D Commune, that triggered such a response. I'm sorry, Catlin, if I've offended you in any way, it's just that, what you seem to be saying is SO not true, and gives the wrong impression of myself and pumeco. You say you would like to get your grubby little paws on PRO-RENDER. Well, now more than ever, I hope you do! Maybe then you'll forgive me for giving you the wrong impression, enjoy PRO-RENDER, and see myself and pumeco in a BETTER light.

The truth of the matter is that I was pointing the finger at this thread in general, not at a single member. It was really starting to feel as if people had it in for PRO-RENDER, though I can't for one moment see why they should.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

Oh by the way, I forgot to mention to PJF that the reflection problem demonstrated, has been worked out, though not demonstrated in the images below,

...all will be revealed on PRO-RENDER's release!

Regards,

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

PRO-RENDER Sample 3 - CORNELL BOX 1 Lights = 1 Virtual Exposure = 1/1 Actual RPP = 256 Virtual RPP = 256 Render Time = 3H:04M:16S on Celeron 2.6 This image was rendered with a single STRONG area light.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

PRO-RENDER Sample 4 - CORNELL BOX 2 Lights = 0 Virtual Exposure = 1/1 Actual RPP = 256 Virtual RPP = 256 Render Time = 1H:35M:29S on Celeron 2.6 This image was rendered with NO light.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

OK, so there's the Cornell Box renders, made with PRO RENDER. PJF kindly uploaded his version to this thread earlier ( post number 40 ). This is great, because it gives me a way to demonstrate to members, some of the problems that have been sorted. First of all, take a look at the image by PJF, where the bottom of objects meet the floor. You will notice an EXCESSIVE amount of ambience, due not only to the amount of ambience being used, but also to the intensity of the colours themselves. Please also note, that PJF pointed out that the image in question was brought about by a lot of tweaking. Now then, let's take a look at PRO-RENDER's version ( CORNELL BOX 1 ). The first thing you'll probably notice, is the sheer intensity of the colour. This is because I have made the single area light more intense than would normally be called for. I have done this for a VERY good reason, and here is that reason... If, in PJF's example, he were to increase the intensity of the light, the EXCESSIVE ambience problem displayed, would be even MORE amplified, and would result in a worse image, and PJF would probably need some strong form of medication to contain his sanity :-) ...however, please note that in the PRO-RENDER version ( CORNELL BOX 1 ), even though the light is much stronger, and the colours more intense, the problem of EXCESSIVE ambience has been sorted. Please also note, that this was managed WITHOUT having to tweak anything, and also, that the box LEAKAGE problem has been sorted :-) Moving on, CORNELL BOX 2 shows the same type of scene, again rendered with PRO-RENDER, only this time, without any lights. Also, the cube has been changed to a sphere to show how PRO-RENDER handles transparency, reflection, and refraction. Please note that every material used in the four images I have posted here, are PRO-RENDER specific, and will be included among many other PRO-RENDER specific materials when the package is released. Finally, if nothing else, the two Cornell Box images show how the PRO-RENDER method handles the extemes, going from a STRONG light, right down to NO light at all! Be back soon. Regards, Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Those examples look good, this is interesting. Please keep posting examples, if you would. How would your method handle, say, a glass with liquid in it placed inside the 'cornell box'? with and without light and how would that affect the rendertime with your methos VS the regular methood? Just curious. :] TMG

Jeez! But I'm glad I stayed outa this one......LOL

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster

And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...

Yep.... I am too Bryster. I am quite intrigued with what Pro Render does. I certainly do want to check it out. I am also glad that Len didn't quit coming around and that he is continuing to work on Pro Render. I also think that there is a lot of genuine interest in Pro Render here in the Bryce Forum. I think that some just don't want to admit it. As PJF said I think it is time to have a cool off. I agree with what TMGraphics said. Please keep the info and example renders coming Len. 8) Wade

There are 10 kinds of people: Those who know binary, and those who don't. 

A whiner is about as useful as a one-legged man at an arse kicking contest.

.

Looking good, please keep us updated!

(_/)
(='.'=)
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I'm intrigued! I spent some time digging around this evening to try and figure what Len is up to, but I have to say I'm stumped (something to do with maximum ray depth combined with - ?). Maybe I'll end up kicking myself for being really close (but no cigar), but I couldn't find it tonight. But having said that, knowing that PRO-RENDER is arriving soon anyway took the need away - and I've been playing Sim-City most of the time instead (no creative spark for weeks...). Now, I'm going to risk being a sourpuss and point out that Len's latest renders aren't perfect. There is a little too much stray ambience at the bottom of the tall box in both pics. Which I find fascinating in and of itself... OK then, where's my medication? (mmmmm, beer.....)

Renders are excellent. All banter aside, this should prove to be a helpful tool in any Bryce renderer's toolkit. It matters not who's done what previously. You guys are terrific. Enjoy and learn from one another's accomplishments.

My question to pumeco is this, and it's simple:
When will we get to take this program or these settings for a test spin?
Message edited on: 07/08/2004 10:51

Aye, no animosity intended, Pumeco... We're all excited that you've found a new technique, now let's put it to use...?

Hi everyone.

A few replies this time, so I had better seperate them.

TMGraphics:
First of all thanks, and as far as your question about having liquid in a bottle goes, I can tell you with absolute certainty that it would indeed be possible. I can think of no reason why not.

TheBryster:
I dont' blame you for staying out of this :-)
Oh and by the way, I know I'm propbably going to be the butt of a few jokes because of this but, I need to ask, what is LOL or lol. I keep seeing LOL and lol, and I have absolutely NO idea what it is. Does it stand for something or is it some sort of smiley. And, if it is some sort of smiley, what does is express? I have'nt been at this long enough to find out!

Swade:
Thanks for the support and opinion. I think a couple of more renders should be forthcoming before PRO-RENDER's release, hang in there!

Cris Palomino:
Eh... dont' know how to reply because I dont' know what is suggested by your posts. Got me thinking though!

Rayraz:
Thanks, and yes, will do!

PJF:
I'm assuming you read post number 78. If so, I'm glad to see your still prepared to post here, thanks! Also please know that you are MORE than welcome to post your images and knowledge in this thread, never believe otherwise.

Now then sourpuss! Trust you to spot it :-) Actually, I made a bit of a mistake in my writings, I should not have said that the excessive ambience problem has been sorted. What I meant to say was that it's been minimised.
However, that said, I have recently made yet another improvement to PRO-RENDER, and now, the ambience problem is at present just about non-existent, and the scattering of light has taken on a whole new level of smoothness. By the time PRO-RENDER is released I think the ambience problem could well be TOTALY non-existent, let's hope so. But for now, renders are now smoother than the first four images I posted, it's looking good.

waldomac:
All being well, I hope to have PRO-RENDER online in August 2004. Other 3D projects are slowing things down a little, but it's getting there!

shadowdragonlord:
Thanks, I hope you'll find something usefull in PRO-RENDER, even if it's not perhaps as much as what you wish for. Hope you'll like it anyway :-)

Regards,

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Anything we can alpha test, or if it's due August, probably beta test? LOL - Laugh Out Loud. You need to spend less time programming and more time hanging around forums. ;-)

---------
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I meant to mention in my last post, that I'd made a mistake in describing the tweaking in my 'Cornel Box' pic. When I went back into the file to explore a bit more, I noticed that all my settings were actually consistent. It was in the journey to that file that I'd messed about with all the settings; rotated primitives; and tried meshes instead of primitives; and all sorts. The 'fix' in that image is the use of a large ambient/diffuse light source behind the camera to add to the illumination in the scene. This is providing more light than just another plane wall would. The consistent settings I used were wrong, though. I used too much ambience. At that stage I was using 100 percent, but nowadays I use less. Going back to Len's images, I have a concern with the second one. The sphere has transparent and reflective attributes. This may be deliberate, but it happens to also look exactly like the problem I was having with transparent objects picking up a weird reflective attribute even when no such setting was applied. I'd like to see an image something like the one I attempted showing one purely reflective sphere beside one purely transparent sphere. And I'd also like to see a render of an organic mesh model under PRO-RENDER settings to demonstrate how mesh smoothing looks. And speaking of meshes, I've been surprised at how many look bad under True Ambience. Many surfaces render black. What the hell, now I'm in request mode, I'd like to see a PRO-RENDER of a Bryce primitive boolean interaction. One of the default ones from the library should indicate whether PRO-RENDER has overcome the nasty experience I had with booleans under True Ambience.

I'm not sure if I've shown this one or not, but it demonstrates the power of True Ambience and hopefully points to the potential from PRO-RENDER. This image has more conventional items on show. A poser figure, other meshes, terrains and photo textures. The important point about this pic is that it's lit by just one parallel light (representing the sun). All the other natural fill light comes from True Ambience, and unlike light domes, the light bounces between surfaces like radiosity. In this (reduced size) image there are no problems on show from True Ambience. Any limitations are entirely due to my limited 3D skills. This is completely natural light fill/bounce with pure blacks in the shadows. I'm sure this is what the Bryce programmers had in mind with True Ambience.

But... This section of the full sized image shows the nasty mesh facetting problem I haven't been able to resolve. On a close up of a human model mesh, that is very unappealing indeed. For this scene I was able to minimise the downside by careful choice of angle. It also shows the graininess I had to put up with to keep the render time sensible. If I remember correctly this scene took about 7 or 8 hours. The full pic above is a 67 percent bicubic reduction from the scale shown in this post. Len has mentioned previously that mesh smoothing is not a problem in PRO-RENDER, and has just announced an improvement in render smoothness... Yeehah, eh?

Then there's ROTFLMAO ! Bet ya don't know what that means either,Pumeco? or NVIATWAS...... ...any more with anymore?

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster

And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...

BTW Pumeco! You should know that this is actually MY forum...the geeks above this post are only here under license..........;-)

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster

And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...

Well, like the good book says "The Geeks will inherit the earth" I think reading between the lines... this is the geeks forum.

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The actual quote is: 'The Meek shall inherit the Earth - if that's ok with the rest of you guys?'

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster

And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...

Ok Len I reread all that had bugged me before and I apologize for saying it was your fault, as it was more the narrow minded outlook of others. It just riles me something rotten when I hear these folks bad mouth our forum, especially when they never come in here and they don't know the folk's here, and then go on to proclaim that their's is the better forum with nicer people. Anyway, I think your system is even more interesting having seen your latest examples and I still want to play. 8) Catlin

especially when they never come in here and they don't know the folk's here, and then go on to proclaim that their's is the better forum with nicer people. yeah, everyone knows the real nice people are on THIS forum :P (j/k)

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"yeah, everyone knows the real nice people are on THIS forum" ---- I wonder why they never post... SCNR ;-)

Hey! I'm nice people, and so am I !

Available on Amazon for the Kindle E-Reader

All the Woes of a World by Jonathan Icknield aka The Bryster

And in my final hours - I would cling rather to the tattooed hand of kindness - than the unblemished hand of hate...

Were you talking to me Bryster or Cat or Lin? lol 8)

I'm not paranoid... and me neither!

We agree.

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

PJF, aye, I've had the same problem with TA and poser meshes... But I want you to know that your resized image is beautiful, and an AWESOME example of True Ambience at work in a non-reflective-sphere situation! I'm impressed, the wall's lighting is phenomenal, as is the texture. Good stuff.

I like this pumeco guy. Very nice dude. Sounds very sincere. Look forward to seeing the prorender thing.

OK...pumeco...WHEN CAN we try this out... I for one just want to learn the technique...I am psoitive 90 percent of the Brycers will want to learn too...So more power to ya...Dont Fret the little stuff...Remember this folks... Anything that will help even 1 Brycer is weell worth the EFFORT...Unless you die from Boredom waiting for the Endless Render...

Endless render ... LOL

Guess I'm not Bryce-geeky enough to understand why exactly I would need to render without lights... I get the color bounce bit, though. But I'm not really excited about even longer render times. :-( That said, your images look good, Len. And I wish you luck. Gonna go back to sleep now and let the geekier people have their thread back. ;-P -Heidi P.S. Cris was just bookmarking the thread so she'd get e-bots when someone replied. Our lovely antique formus here don't have a "watch this thread for responses" option. (Don't get me started on that.)

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

B.fish: Rendering without lights can be a lot faster.

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

Oh, OK! Faster is good! :-) Thanks for the info. -Heidi

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

okay... just found the thread... but.. (and this may show just how ignorant I may be.. but.. both of the first test images that pumeco posted were rendered on a Celeron... My understanding is that a Pentium would do this faster... The image that took just over an hour was excellent, and most of my renders take at least that long. So.. to me.. nothing really different, other than the quality of the image being GREATLY improved... (If I am mistaken about the Celeron vs Pentium.. forgive the idiot that is me....) I am honestly very excited.. and hate the fact that I can't just jump into August long enough to download this now... :) Please keep up the work you're doing... (and more images please... :) )

You are correct about the Celeron vs. Pentium affair, LeeEvans. Better still would be an Athlon or Duron, which actually take into account the floating point operations and render and perform much more efficiently at lower clock speeds. Still, back to the original POINT of this thread : Pro-Render. There's really nothing pro about it so far, Pumeco. We've seen three or four screenshots, none of which showed any new or exciting effects in Bryce that we weren't already doing without it. Also, as was stated previously, you don't even have a gallery of art to look at. How many times have you used this product you're creating? Why can't we see what you have done with it? Not to make you feel bad, but it seems ridiculous to advertise something that doesn't exist. What were you hoping to gain? Popularity? Notoriety? Even so, I think that unless you actually produce SOMETHING, you're merely alienating a group of artists who aren't interested in popularity. So far, you've given us nothing but text and a few quickie images that many of us could create in minutes, and I don't think I'm going to hold my breath in wonder and wait for you to figure out what exactly it is you're talking about.

Any news, Pumeco?

I was truly looking forward to this...

Im not a newbie really, been playing with Bryce 4 since 2000, and just bought the release from Daz for Bryce 5, but I havent ever read the manual.. and only limited tutorials.

That said, I was very impressedby the renders Pumeco has posted... I realize that several others have posted images they have created trying to duplicate his "idea" ... but they themselves have said that there's something he's doing that they can't quite figure out.

And from my POV, these are posts by people who have been "into the works" of Bryce for a while to have a better understanding of rendering and lighting etc, than I do.. and I feel most "newbies."

Im still hoping that this is something that everyone will have the opportunity to use, and experiment with. However, being that there hasn't been a post from pumeco in over two weeks.. Im afraid that maybe it was dropped?

I hope not... but...

Aye, not to contradict you at all LeeEvans, but if you do a search for, "Radiosity", "HDRI", or "True Ambience" in the Bryce forums here, you will find hundreds of images ranging from Pumeco's style to Ornlu's style, meaning newbie work all the way to our in-house ridiculous Brycologist. There's really nothing mysterious going on TO figure out... He hasn't re-written the Bryce renderer, merely found some features he thought nobody knew about. That said, there's nothing wrong with his ideas, OR his enthusiasm! I enjoy those things myself, and I hope we're not discouraging. But at the same time, calling something "Profesional" means that it's a PROFESSION, meaning you make money off of it. I can't see how Pumeco's product will help us do anything we couldn't already do without it... Perhaps "Bryce GT"...?

Another thought is that Bryce6 is just over the horizon and we may not have to fake things in future to get the effects we want. 8)

Hi everyone.

I've just read the recent posts here, and this is really just a quick "STILL HERE" kind of post.

I'm sorry I have'nt posted as much as I would like to. Unfortunately, I have a lot of other business to attend to, other than PR (PRO-RENDER). In fact, I came VERY close to abandoning PR just recently, as it's no longer in my best interest to produce and support it. However, thanks to the opportunity offered by PRX (PRO-RENDER-XTREME), I've decided to continue and complete both.

Just before I go, I feel the air needs to be cleared regarding the name "PRO-RENDER". It has been suggested in one or two threads, that perhaps it's misleading or unsuitable. First of all, I need to point out that the word PROFESSIONAL is not for the sole purpose of use, to describe a product with which you can make money. The word PROFESSIONAL, is also used to describe a standard of quality. The name "PRO-RENDER", was created to describe a product which can give PRO standard RENDERS, and because PRO-RENDER can do this, the name is entirely suitable, and not in any way misleading. If there are members, who disagree with this, then I'm sorry, but that name is going to stay. And if there are members who believe it's name suggests a "PAY PACKET", then there's an almost infinite list of other products that also use the abbreviation "PRO" in their name, like "Paint-Shop-Pro" for example.

Final pre-release renders, and a FINALISED specification chart will be uploaded soon. Please bear with me, I'm working on it ;-)

Speak to you all soon,

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

"In fact, I came VERY close to abandoning PR just recently, as it's no longer in my best interest to produce and support it." ------------- How lame is that... So, the next time if you have a project, please STFU until you decided to continue it. J.

Easy derjimi. I did say "CLOSE" to abandoning, I did'nt say I had. When I came close to abandoning PR, I started preparing an announcement for the forums. However, because I've decided to continue PR and PRX, there was no point in posting it was there? I personally, don't see your problem here. If I had'nt mentioned it in my previous post, you would never have known any different. I don't see how honesty can be lame. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

I'm just dumbfounded at the level of hostility that's been shown to pumeco in this thread. A lot of Bryce users (like myself) aren't very excellent or experienced in the use of various settings, and if a plugin became available, or even a list of settings, that would produce specific results, I'd be thrilled. In The Real World I undertake very big projects, and part of the process of psyching myself up is to talk to people about it. I've heard it referred to as 'pumping up the tyre', so I'm not alone in needing that. Not everyone works by chipping away secretly until the moment comes to show a finished project. I would never make/achieve anything unless I was able to make the project 'become real' in my own head first, it has to seem possible to achieve, and I do that by telling people what I'm doing. Why don't we get behind pumeco and push, rather than shooting him down every time he sticks his head above the parapet?

I have to apologise. Sorry Pumeco, it was a fault to use such harsh words. I had a bad day and overreacted. Sorry again. J.

Personally I want to know details, step by step how to, etc. Then I will judge if this was really worth all the emotions displayed here.

Aldaron,
Believe me, the emotions displayed here, have me totally amazed. I personally can't understand how anyone can have any dislike of such a product, especially now it's free! I just wish that some people would settle down a little, and see PR for what it is, and that's a product to make advanced rendering easy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

catlin mc(post 99), derjimi(post 123),
Apology accepted, no problem, it's water under the bridge.

Thanks to others for the supportive comments.

I'll be posting again soon with my pre-release posts.

Regards,

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Do people really have a dislike of the product? It's free, people either like it and use it, or don't like it and don't. But personally I don't think that people are showing a dislike of Pro-Render as such, but more a suspicion of anything that says it can improve bryce renders. The hostility you have witnessed is not aimed at you as a person and probably not even at pro-render (how can people be hostile towards something they have no information on?), but more the promise of something that may go the way of other promises and not be all that was hoped. One thing is certain. If you give up now and do decide to drop pro-render then nothing you have experienced in the forum so far will prepare you for the posts you will get afterwards. But on the other hand, if pro-render does what people hope and what you claim, then you are going to be the toast of the forum. August deadline? That's not far away. I'm sure we can wait a few more weeks before unleashing the dogs. ;-) When you next post some examples, would it be possible to post some native bryce renders and pro-render renders side by side? At the very least it's got people thinking more about lighting. Me especially. Which can be no bad thing.

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Hi drawbridgep.

Thanks for that, It's always interesting to know of opinions. There's really only one MAJOR thing that bothers me about PR's release, and it's this:

When I read through almost any PR thread, I can't help but get the impression that people STILL think that PR is a program or a plugin. The reality of course, is that this is NOT the case, and I've never said otherwise. This bothers me a lot, because it means that no matter how good PR is, and no matter how many people it helps out, a lot of people will come down on it like a ton of bricks. And the sad fact of the matter is that in most cases, this will be because of what it is, and without regard for what it actually does.

Yeh drawbridgep, I know, thanks for the warning. I'm ready for the "experience" I KNOW I'm gonna get, no matter how PR is recieved. I only hope that the amount of positive response, outweighs the negative. I can't please everyone, but then, who can?

My pre-release post will include:

Explanation of Reflection problem.

Explanation of Smoothing problem.

Explanation of Boolean problem.

Standard Bryce to PRO-RENDER comparisons.

PRO-RENDER to PRO-RENDER-XTREME comparisons.

PRO-RENDER and PRO-RENDER-XTREME specifications.

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

I've just spent an hour reading this thread (longest one on rosity?) No, you've never said that it's a program or a plugin, but people did presume it and I don't think it was made totally clear in the first post (which was the important one) that it's not. I still wasn't sure until I read your last post. I may not have the highest IQ here, but I'm no ninny either. So, (and I know I'll be corrected if I'm wrong) - Pro-Render is a combination of tutorials and specific material settings? What's the difference between PR and PR Extreme then? ;-)

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Aye, I admit that perhaps I've been hostile-sounding, but I assure you Pumeco if you could see the grin on my face you'd know that I'm just goading you in a friendly way! Also, somebody has to be the skeptic, and with a ridiculous screen name like mine I fear that role should at least be partly on my shoulders. BUT, I am not to be taken too seriously under any circumstances...!

And I can't wait to see what kinds of new effects we can produce with your techniques... Never discard something out of hand, never judge but merely analyze.

"It is possible to know so much about a topic that you become completely ignorant." - Frank Herbert

Message edited on: 07/27/2004 18:41

What's the difference between PR and PR Extreme then? ;-) I believe I read (either here or at DAZ) that he isn't going to say anything about PRX until he releases it. Well, other than it exists. All will supposedly become clear when it comes out. Just for the record, these are the kinds of actions that make people afraid to bend over. :-/ -Heidi

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

I think drawbridgep hit the nail on the proverbial head with his comment's in post 126. We have seen many promises and let downs over time and I believe that is the whole reason for any aggression shown here. Also Len you've got to understand that for myself in particular, I'm 43 going on 4, you get the picture, yes. 8P Catlin

Hey, enough of the typo's! I said PRX (PRO-RENDER-XTREME) not PRE (PRO-RENDER-EXTREME)! Yeh I know, get some sleep right? Going...Going...zzzZZZzzz

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Also Len you've got to understand that for myself in particular, I'm 43 going on 4, you get the picture, yes. 8P hehe, get it :P but I'm sure you could still go for a 20 y/o if you color your hair blonde ;)

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There's an myth with Bryce 5, regarding reflections on transparent materials that have no reflective property set. This is something that members see as a problem caused by the use of TA (True Ambience). However, the reality is that it's not actually a problem, and it's presence is not caused by TA. The cause is actually refraction, as my test strip above demonstrates. OK, two rows of images, the top row is PRO-RENDER using True Ambience, and the bottom row is standard Bryce 5 (No TA). Also, please note that EVERY image uses 0% reflection and 100% transparency. First, take a look at 3 and 6, a reflection is clearly present (Refraction = 153 (Glass)). Now look at 2 and 5, and you'll notice the reflection is starting to disappear (Refraction = 101 (Mild Refraction)). Finally look at 1 and 3, and you'll notice a complete absence of reflection (Refraction = 100 (Air/No Refraction)). So there you have it, some might find this rather strange, but in reality it makes perfect sense. Just imagine a real world situation, if you had a perfect sphere, totally transparent, no colouring to define it, no reflection of it's surroundings, and no refraction to define it's density, how on earth would you expect to see it? The fact is that you won't, as demonstrated by image 1. I hope this has clarified the myth, as well as give some food for thought regarding real-world-to-CG physics. ;-) Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

This image is to show that the light leak problem has been sorted. The cube primitive in image 1 is a Bryce 5 PARAMETRIC, and obviously has problems. The cube primitive in image 2 is a GEOMETRIC (imported geometry) replacement, and solves the light leak problem. PRO-RENDER will come with any replacement primitives needed. After sorting the light leak problem, I kind of assumed that using replacement primitives would also solve the boolean problem. Unfortunately though, booleans still don't work properly. This won't be a problem to anyone who imports objects though. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Well, as many of us know, imported geometry under true ambience has smoothing problems. In fact, smoothing the object in Bryce 5 will have no effect on it's smoothness under TA whatsoever. However, there are ways to work around this problem, and this image demonstrates the PR and PRX methods of doing so.

Take a look a both, they're both smooth, and they're both rendered with NO LIGHTS! The image on the left was rendered using the PR method, and the image on the right was rendered using the PRX method and SKIN-BASE (PRX package (see specifications chart)).

SKIN-BASE along with another product called HAIR-BASE (not shown), are special advanced materials designed for specific emulation of different skin/hair types. Technically, these materials are a method in their own right, and are designed to integrate perfectly into the PRX method. They're pretty complicated, and require a manual of their own. SKIN-BASE and HAIR-BASE are still under development. Please know that image 2 demonstrates SKIN-BASE in an INCOMPLETE state, and is included here for comparison purposes only.

SKIN-BASE and HAIR-BASE were originally intended to be distributed as seperate products. However, the importance of skin and hair in Bryce 5, has taken on an all new level since the DAZ/Bryce 5 ownership. SKIN-BASE and HAIR-BASE will now be available as part of the PRX package (see specifications chart).

Len.

Message edited on: 08/02/2004 15:09

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

As requested, here are my earlier renders shown as with/without PRO-RENDER comparisons. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

OK, here's another comparison, and this time it's dedicated to everyone who's trying to crack PRO-RENDER. It's a scene with only ONE light (the sun). The wall material is a preset that came with Bryce 5, but which has been modified to PRO-RENDER spec. Please note inparticular, the marble pattern directly above the screen (ignore where the pattern is lost completely in the reflection), look just to the right of this, and ask yourself why the pattern itself is more detailed in the PRO-RENDER version, even though, the pattern was NOT changed between renders! If you really DO enjoy the challenge, here's the biggest clue: -IT'S ALL IN THE BALANCE- Have fun :-)) Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Same image, only this time with NO LIGHTS. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Len, re: post 134 - I hate you re: post 136 - I love you

A light distribution comparison for PR (image 1) and PRX (image 2). Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

PR/PRX specifications chart:

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

God damn!

.

Is the hair thing like Sasquatch for Bryce, or is that expecting too much?

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Also feel free to browse my freebies at ShareCG.
There might be something worth downloading.

Great It look good. Since we are on tge supject of "upgrade" Is it possible to create an "lightningman/(person) view just like cammara / director?? Maybee Iam on the wrong channel here.Sorry 4 that. Cheers robert

this is getting increasingly amazing really fast! love the skin base effect!

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I agree, hope to see more on the skin base and hair base, looks remarkable! Heck, all the above is looking real nice! TMG

its august now where can i download my free copy? lol those xtreme skin pictures look cool only the nipples are a bit too pointy maybe that happens after 40 :P THis whole thread is amusing to read and should be added in some biggest moments of the web museum.

for some free stuff i made
and for almost daily fotos

lol those xtreme skin pictures look cool only the nipples are a bit too pointy maybe that happens after 40 :P hehe, I hadn't even noticed, but you're right! hugs the naked chick "ouch! that stings!" :P lol

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Oh behave, Ray. :^)

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

Ah, I knew it!

I had a feeling that there would almost certainly be some talk of the nipples ;-)

God, you can't get away with anything in this place. OK, they're a bit pointy I must admit, but maybe PJF was right, maybe she's in a cool environment!

Nah, the truth of the matter is that they're intentionally large and pointed, I intended to tone 'em down a bit before I rendered, but I forgot. I was'nt going to go through a long render again, just to reduce the size of the nipples.

Just in case you're wondering why they look like that:

I always use that same mesh, when I'm testing SKIN-BASE. And believe it or not, the nipple area is a very good part of the mesh to examine SKIN-BASE up-close in a technical manner. It's because that part of the mesh is dense, and concentrates light evenly in the centre of a large smooth surrounding. Of course, now you're wondering what the hell I'm going on about, but rest assured, when you see the leap of progress I made last night with SKIN-BASE, you'll know EXACTLY what I mean.

Last night, I managed to get VERY close to what I want out of SKIN-BASE. I'm talking SKIN-OVER-BLOOD simulation in a single material!

The INCOMPLETE SKIN-BASE material shown above, is in comparison, very sub-standard to what I have now. I never should have posted a SKIN-BASE demonstration in that basic state, so I would suggest to anyone "ignore it".

The above images were supposed to be my final ones before I release PRO-RENDER, but, I'll do one more to show what SKIN-BASE was intended to do, (SKIN-OVER-BLOOD simulation).

I've NEVER been so plased with anything I've ever created, than what I came up with last night. If you're intending to use figures in PRO-RENDER-EXTREME, then you're gonna love what I've done. If people are not impressed with my next image, then as far as I'm concerned, there's no pleasing them, and I couldn't care less of their opinion.
We shall see...

No matter what, I AM EXTATIC!!! 8-))

I'll get a render done in the next couple of days!

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

ll be looking forward to your render of extacy ;)

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Gets a chair, popcorn and beer, and waits for the big show!!

Now if you've actually got a real life like flesh for Bryce I'd be most interested. It's one of the things that is very hard to do in Bryce and since I've been using more and more Poser models in Bryce I would love to be able to make them look that bit more realistic, ie. human. 8) Catlin

OK, here's a render using SKIN-BASE (skin-over-blood simulation). SKIN-BASE is an advanced material which is a method in itself. Because each is a seperate method, I've had to make refinements in order to get SKIN-BASE to INTERGRATE correctly with PRO-RENDER-XTREME. Luckily, it worked! Having the effect of SKIN-BASE inside a PRX render is really quite a big deal, honest it is!

Normally, a figure's skin colour is defined by using a texture map. This gives you control over the colour of the skin, but what it does NOT do, is give you a virtual simulation of skin/environment interaction. The best way to describe the difference between a texture map and SKIN-BASE would be: LIFELESS and LIFE!

So, if texture maps are not to be used to define skin colour, what is?

Well, you will have four major virtual parameters to do this:

1: SKIN COLOUR
2: BLOOD COLOUR
3: SKIN THICKNESS
4: BLOOD THICKNESS

...I did say that this is SKIN-OVER-BLOOD simulation ;-)

So, what about things like tattoos, lip colour and makeup?

These can be done with combination maps. These maps however, will look quite different to what you would have to produce for a standard map. Guidelines of how to create such maps will be given in the SKIN-BASE user manual (they're no harder than standard maps, just different).

Also, combination maps can be used to define wrinkles and blemishes etc, and the result is that SKIN-BASE will, by it's very nature, automatically generate the colouring effect of tight, loose, smooth, and creased skin. In short, you supply the detail, and SKIN-BASE will do the rest! There will no longer be any need to PAINT this effect onto texture maps!

Skin thickness can be controlled by a texture map. This is just as well really, because in real life, skin thickness varies greatly from head to toe. For example, compare the VERY thin skin of your lips, to the thikness of the skin on the bottom of your feet. Whether you just want to capture that GLOW you get when skin is backlit, or you want eyelids and lips that look ALIVE, it's possible using SKIN-BASE. It doesn't matter what you want from the skin, you ought to be able to simulate it with SKIN-BASE and a bit of practice.

Please know that the above image demonstrates SKIN-BASE without using any maps whatsoever, and as such, it's not a demonstration of SKIN-BASE's true potential. The skin you see above is a demonstration of SKIN-BASE in a VERY basic state.

There will be many -skin type- presets included in the package. For example, the skin type above shows what will eventually become the base pigmentation for a redhead. Imagine some long curly locks of ginger hair draping over that body, and you'll understand what I'm getting at regarding skin types and pigmentation. A redhead usually has thinner skin than say a brunette, and this is why her body looks pinkish, her skin is quite thin, so the underlying effect of blood is more visible.

I hope you like what you see.

Len.

Message edited on: 08/05/2004 14:25

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Just a taste of things to come ;-)

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

well thats neat, do I need Bryce to run it?

I think I've probably said this before Len but you are a big tease. You get us all worked up with little hint's as to what is possible and then leave us with strained nerves waiting for the product to arrive. I think from now on I'll put you in the catagory of naughty boy, along with a few others in this very forum...........and you all know who you are........Bryster 8P Got to say it's looking very good so far. Now you really must get it out soon so us grubby kids can get our hands on it to play for a while. 8) Catlin

.

VAPORWARE: A sarcastic term used to designate software and hardware products that have been announced and advertised but are not yet available.

WIP: A "Work In Progress", a practice often used in forums.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

pumeco no offense but you keep posting what it will do but not what it is and it is driving me crazy! I believe there is plenty of intrest how about some specifics?

How do you add a sphere to a scene? Only kidding. I'm a Bryce newbie and this is all over my head but I spend some time reading all 163 posts. The image of the poser woman standing next to a stone wall floored me. I'll shut up now.

Message edited on: 08/05/2004 22:47

Hello harlann welcome to the forum. Don't worry about things flying over your head it happens all the time even to those of us who should know better. Enjoy your reading and go pester pumeco to give us ProRender soon. 8) Sorry Len I can't help muyself. 8) Catlin

• "...go pester pumeco to give us ProRender soon." -thanks Cat, I love you, I just LOVE you ;-) harlann, Like Cat said, welcome to the forum. Also, if you thought that woman next to the stone wall was good, go and check-out an image called "my sister's mate's bike", or something like that title. Just type PJF into SEARCH and you'll find it among his writings, it's amazing! Vile, No offense taken, I'm just very on-edge these days, and I'm a "naughty boy". I know for a fact that I've gone over the top on more than one occassion when I'm trying to defend PRO-RENDER. Just take no notice of me, as I'm sure many will tell you ;-) experimental, Yes, you will need Bryce 5 to run PR,PRX,SB or HB. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

BTW... Putting this out where a couple of us could test it would speed up debugging. The concepts behind this "program" are cool, but some things need testing such as interface and reliability. Putting out a few betas couldn't hurt, even if the final product isn't ready. They would definitely help refine the end product. A couple good examples that I know of are OpenSource programs such as Mozilla and Wings3D. There's a lot of work done in finding bugs, but it's distributed over many people so they're discovered quickly. That information ends up being used to make the end product that much better.

---

Barbequed Pixels?

Your friendly neighborhood Wings3D nut.
Also feel free to browse my freebies at ShareCG.
There might be something worth downloading.

Well hey! I'M amazed. And if that's the results you get with just a simple one color texture...whoa. Just imagine...my goodness! I am seriously hyped up about this. Most awesome work Pumeco!

pauljs75, Thanks for your comments and suggestion, but, it's not a program. You've missed something somewhere :-) Mrdodobird, QUOTE: ...And if that's the results you get with just a simple one color texture... No no no, that's the results you get with NO texture whatsoever. The colouring in post 156 is generated automatically by the method SKIN-BASE uses. Of course you'll be able to use maps though, to control skin thickness, add tattoos, freckles, makeup etc. The image you see, doesn't show any of these refinements. The final product will produce much better results. I'm glad you like it so far, personally I just wan't to play around with it and create some renders, but I don't have the time. August is here, and I'm still working to get PRO-RENDER out in time. PS: I like your gallery lot's! The attention to detail is superb, as is your lighting technique. Looking at your gallery, I really don't think you're gonna get much out of PRO-RENDER, you know it already! Still, there might be something in there for you. In fact, that goes for many members here. Looking at the galleries, I know that many will be disappointed with PRO-RENDER when it finally get's out there. I hope not though, because I will say to these members (and you all know who you are), just look upon PRO-RENDER as a sort of "in-one" knowledge base, there might be just SOMETHING in there for you. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

COURTESY POST: This is not a technical post, more a polite notice really. I've decided to make this my last post because I've decided to drop PRO-RENDER, and thought you should know about this. ...only joking ;-) Actually, this is just to say that I won't be logging-on for a while. I'm aware that I have'nt replied to all questions, private messages, and emails. To those unanswered, please don't think I'm ignoring you, I'm just getting a little behind. Which brings me to the point of this post, I want to get PRO-RENDER out in time. Every PRO-RENDER thread seems to have gone strangely quiet since my post of skin-over-blood simulation, so this is the perfect time for me to make this post. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

OOOoh, dangerous game you're playing there. I nearly released the dracs er... I mean the dogs on you.

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That's ok Len, less talking, more action, is usually a good thing, and if it gets PR to us all quicker then there's no problem at all. 8)

Hey, I just got back from a 10 day tour with my orchestara. Did I miss the release of prorender or is it still not out there yet?

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Nope, we're still waiting. (Unless I missed it too)

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And... Still waiting... sigh

It's still August...

.............not any more.............8P

Heh, and you managed to wait twenty four hours before pointing that out. Your restraint is admirable. ;-) Actually, I have no clue as to whether PRO-RENDER is coming out or not. It's been a sort of mixed message. Len said to watch out for it soon, but then got pissed off and said something was the last straw. Buggered if I know. ;-)

Oh I've just been ill again PJF and being a wee bit slow, not up to my usual lightening strikes of information. Anyway the last I read he was going to be quiet for a while so he could get everything just right for the release, so hopefully that's where he is, slaving over a hot computer. lol 8) Catlin

last straw? what did I miss? did someone piss pumeco out of developing pro-render? 'cause if someone did I'm gunna kick that someone's ass!!

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Ray, I think from his last post as quoted in part below he's either got a new girlfriend or something or he's buckling down, battoning the hatches and getting his app together. either way it sounds like a good thing. - TJ . . . "...Actually, this is just to say that I won't be logging-on for a while. I'm aware that I have'nt replied to all questions, private messages, and emails. To those unanswered, please don't think I'm ignoring you, I'm just getting a little behind..."

Yes, I think he's hard at work with either ProRender or a new girlfriend like TJ said. 8)

I think Elvis has left the building.........

Oh! That makes sense then. "getting a little behind" and got a new girlfriend. It all falls into place. :-)

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now there's something I don't need :P a new girlfriend. My current gf is already the best in the world! :D only 20 more days and it's time for the 6 months anniversary! WOOHOO!!

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Congratulations Rayraz.............when's the wedding. lol 8D

Message edited on: 09/04/2004 10:32

the wedding.. hmm dunno, depends on when I ask her to marry me :P First I'll finish my study though :)

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"...depends on when I ask her to marry me" And whether she says "yes". ;-)

Hmmm...I think that Pumeco is getting a big kick outta playing with our heads.

PJF, I'm pretty sure that once I ask her she will ;)

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Tut, tut, Rayraz, your girl would be furious if she thought you were so sure of her. Every girl likes to be a little bit mysterious you know. 8)

She is mysterious too but on other fields ;) Very mysterious even at times. But that's also what makes her so very attractive :)

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Good, I'm glad to hear it. 8)

I just try to be the best boyfriend I can be, and so far it's working :D

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Hi.

After reading the recent posts here (173 onwards) it's became obvious that an explanation is needed.

Things have happened, projects change, and I'm preparing an emergency notice to put up on www.pumeco.com in the next couple of days. I decided against starting a new thread to explain things, because it would only result in yet another locked thread. lol

I think the notice will clear up a lot of confusion.

Ardiva,
I don't get a kick out of playing with peoples heads...do I?

bikermouse,
Wow, you certainly missed a biggie as far as threads go. Many others will also have missed the thread, because it was removed before I even got a chance to see why. And I'm not too happy about that, god I love this place.

Catlin,
I hear you've been ill - again, nothing serious I hope. I wish you well, and I'm pleased to see you back 'cos I really kinda like it when you get angry with me 8-)

drawbridgep,
Trust a brit to come up with an innuendo like that! God, I wish I was hard at work with a girlfriend or better still, a wife ;-) No such luck though I'm afraid. Ahh well...one of these days huh?

LeeEvans,
Thanks for your support, and thanks for being one of the young who actually have a mature and level-headed outlook. I know you're young, because I've been checking out the members photo album here of everyone who posts in my threads - it's good to put faces to names.

PJF,
C'mon you know me by now. You're welcome to PM me and ask you know. Actually, I intended to PM you, give you a bit of info, and to say I hope you enjoyed your holiday break. However I think I've got a little too much project work than I want to handle at the moment - and I keep forgetting. I've got to slow down and have a break before I flip!

pogmahone,
Elvis? Whoa, that's the first time anyone's ever called me that. I've been called a lot of things before, but they're generally not repeatable where ladies are present. Thank's for all you've done, you know what I mean ;-)

Rayraz,
Good look with the wedding proposal, I wish you all the best, you lucky person! Have a chat with drawbridgep, as I hear he's quite an authority on married bliss these days ;-)

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

I wonder what the record is for posts in a thread? I'd say we were getting up there. As for marriage, been 2 months and 6 days and it's going fine, so any questions, bring them on. But simple rules, the husband is always wrong and flowers don't always solve any problem. ;-)

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LOL, I'm only 18 dude! I'm not gunna propose yet :P but thanx for wishing me luck anyways ;) I'm first gunna finish my study, maybe after that there will be a proposal :)

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"I wonder what the record is for posts in a thread? I'd say we were getting up there." -I dunno, but just two more, and we hit the 200 mark!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Really?

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Woohoo! Sorry, you knew I was gonna do that.

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Phillip Drawbridge
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Congratulations man! Hahhaahhhaaa ;-)

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

I'm all shook up! Uuh-huh!

Hi. The temporary site is now up... http://www.pumeco.com ...but my apologies to anyone who tried to access the site and got missing pages and image headers, those problems have now been fixed. Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Hi Len and thank you for the compliment, don't you worry I'm sure to get angry with you again soon. It's my age you know.............8P Good to hear you're still working hard though and I'm sure you'll be able to rest up in no time at all, at least I hope you can before you're head explodes. 8)