Clint, I noticed that a bunch of art-type postings are ending up in the Product Showcase Gallery, including our latest posting of 'Come 'N Get Me'. We had this image posted in the Poser Gallery, and it was moved to Product Showcase. I can understand why it was moved, because it does have a link to Island Girls in the MP. However I can't figure out why some of the others, that are clearly art images, are in this gallery. Is there a glitch in the system? Carol

I am trying to get the most obvious of the sales pitches out of the Poser Gallery and into Product Showcase Gallery, because they are really advertisements showcasing a product. Even though sometimes technically nice, they are promotional pieces first and foremost. Moving your image with the direct clickable link was a no-brainer. Most of the others I have moved were images showing the merchant's character or texture or clothing with blatant promotional copy "coming soon!!!" usually just pasted against a background. If it says "this by me (MP) and that by me (MP) and this other by me, too (MP)"... and no credit to anybody else... it is going to smell like an ad. If the same merchant posts 5 images in a week of the same texture under the same lighting, just featuring different views of it, it smells like an ad. Beta-testing something and having it plopped into the middle of the scene and raving about how easily it poses... smells like an ad. If it is borderline, I will usually leave it. There is a message on the Gallery Header in red type asking merchants not to post their sales material in the Poser Forum. It doesn't beg, plead, order, or wheedle. It asks. But if the merchant won't post an image in the right forum, we have to move it. Carolly Poser Coordinator

Not sure why my image has been put in the product showcase gallery, it is of a upcomming product, but its not mine, i was just testing it, and its not a reoccuring image with different poses, ect...kinda like my images left where i put them if its all the same,

It just seemed to us that many of the images you are calling blatant ads smell a lot more like art, especially many that are now in the Hot 20. In fact, by pulling all these images from the Poser Gallery, now the Hot 20 if filling up with art images instead of Product Promo Images, which seems to kind of defeat the purpose of this. We thought what determined where an image should go was the image itself. If the image contained advertising copy, then it belonged in the Product Showcase Gallery. We didn't realize that the accompanying text had such a huge bearing on where it should go or if it should be considered an ad or art. Another point: Yes, we are merchants, but we are also artists. And we use many of our own products, as well as other merchants products, to create our art. Isn't that what this is all about? Showing and telling people what we used to create the work? In essence,every piece of art that uses a product is a promotion for that product. Are you saying that if we use 5 of our products to do a piece of art - it should go into the Product Showcase Gallery? Are you also saying that if someone gives us their product as a gift, and if we do an art image using this product and thank them in the text, that it should go into the Product Showcase Gallery? Are you saying that if we post an image saying a particular product is coming, that that is also considered an ad and not art. Are you saying that any image that lists product credits in the text should go into the Product Showcase Gallery? Are you saying we should post images only, with no text or mention of what products we used? We are really confused about this now. You say: "There is a message on the Gallery Header in red type asking merchants not to post their sales material in the Poser Forum. It doesn't beg, plead, order, or wheedle. It asks. But if the merchant won't post an image in the right forum, we have to move it." Yes, we have seen the message in red type. But we can't for the life of us figure out why jwdell's image (who isn't a merchant) is now in the Product Showcase Gallery, and even in the HOT 20. Carol

Should we apologize for using our products once in awhile? Geeeeeeesh isn't this going a bit too far? The image of mine moved was definitely art and certainly not a promotional image per se', I don't spend 8 hours painting clothing on a promo image! An IM or email would also have been nice before moving it to the showcase, thank you!

On the one hand I have to agree as some of my favorite artists got to where the only art they do is to promote upcoming products so I removed them from my favorites list...not because the art was bad,but it just didn't feel like the art was why they made the image. However,would not an image done by a buyer that blatently promotes the procuct then also be an ad??Lets face it,90% of all advertisement is done by someone other than the product creator and unless you're going to flag every advertisement regardless of who its by,then your argument falls flat and comes off as blatant discrimination against the merchants creating products for resale here on rosity.I think product showcase is like the contest forum,almost no one views it and to a great degree posting in it guarantees you will be ignored...rosity simply has too many forums and too many gallerys that to a degree do not serve the entent for which they were created. I'd be happy to argue the point but there is no argument here if the merchant creates a work of art that just happens to be with their latest product...you have to judge the art itself and not a percieved intent.The sad thing is its easy...the reason I removed certain artists from my favorites list was becasue their work clearly was created to say "here it is" and had very little artistic value.But if Carol and her hubby spend 3 days doing an image that happens to be every bit as good and has as much artistic value as their other works,then you cannot discriminate just because they are proud to announce the release of a new product. Judge the artistic merit of their work...some art simply does not deserve to be relegated to the status of just being a "promo" or "advertisement"...and again I point out,there is undoubtedly more promo's and advertisement being given to merchants here by members than the merchants themselves~and yet,it seems as if the merchants have been specifically targetted for this. I say there is no reason for Product Showcase,I always view all the new images when I go into the gallerys and I don't exclude anyone...but you provide the option to do that and I'll just bet ya Product Showcase is one that most will exclude because no one wants to view ad's~you're just putting up a red flag that every image in this gallery is an advertisement so why should the merchants even post their works or sell their products on rosity if they're going to be insulted by having every image where they mention the release of a new product banished to the "no one likes ad's so no one views these images" gallery.I have my own way of dealing with ad's...I don't comment or vote for them and if a favorite merchant promotes themselves or their products too much I delete them from my list. Get rid of Product Showcase...its a waste of time,space and artistic talent~especially if the art itself isn't being judged and members who promote products aren't treated the same way!!

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

IMHO, the art galleries are the life's blood of Renderosity. Showing people, and potential customers, what can be done with products, sells product. The more people who see the art, the more chance of selling the product used to create the art. It doesn't seem like a good plan to kick the asrtists who are working very hard on their art, by forcing their images into the Showcase Gallery. . And artists/merchants are hardly just promoting their own stuff. They are promoting all the stuff they use. And are some of the most talented and prolific artists on Renderosity. Carol

I want to know who decides what's art and what's product promotion? One would think if it's obviously postworked, it's art, not product promotion because product promotion should not be postworked. (Something about false advertising...yano)

My Store              My Gallery

---

Remember...getting lost is the senic route to the eventual destination. (And a lot prettier than the straight road)

OKAY! Now let me put my 2 cents...My Image "Searching" was put in the product showcase...Why? I don't know, I'm not selling anything on that Image..The texture was done by me for that character,But it's not being sold anywhere on the NET! That was a personal project....So are we jumping the gun here..are we assuming?When I make ads for my products I do put it in the PS Gallery and you can tell it's a AD..But this Pic has nothing to indicate that it a AD...

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 14:36

I gave up. I don't put credits on anymore. If I were to, it would be for something another merchant gave me, but definitely not myself. Why not ban all credits!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=737005&Start=1&Artist=Danie&ByArtist=Yes

Can a Moderator or a coordinator whatever explain to me why this image ended up in the product showcase Gallery...?

Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.

BlueBeard - I thought the point to credits was to show other people what could be done with products, freebies, etc... It's unfair to get down on a merchant for using their own products in their own artwork. I, for one, enjoy using my own creations in my personal artwork. Marforno - More than likely because you used your own products in the piece. It seems like Renderosity is lumping all merchants who use their own products in an art piece is using it as a promotional advertisement and therefor it should be a product showcase piece, not an art piece...

My Store              My Gallery

---

Remember...getting lost is the senic route to the eventual destination. (And a lot prettier than the straight road)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=660614&Start=1&Artist=hauksdottir&ByArtist=Yes

hauksdottir maybe you want to explain to me what is the difference between the image I just mentioned in my previous post and this one in your gallery...

Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.

Marforno, cause apparently Danie is using hers and your products!!!! LMAO!!! I guess there's a witch hunt out for artists, friends or just whomever promotes any products sold at R'osity...I'm wondering what the next smart move is gonna be...*sigh!
Fantastic image by the way! *S

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 15:14

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 15:20

You've got to be kidding me! I can't believe some of these images have been moved to the Product Showcase. The danger of this is that the guidelines described by Carolly are extremely subjective. Frankly, moving images without any discussion with the creating artist is ridiculous and amounts to vigilante tactics. Let's grow up here folks. People want to know what it is you used to create your image. Many merchants are awesome artists and it would truly be a loss to lose their work to the product showcase, just because they create images with their own products. Danie and marforno's promo images are definitely promo work and their artistic expressions are another story. Someone needs to set measurable standards and at minimum, a communication to the artist should be made BEFORE an image is moved. We aren't children and we don't appreciate being treated as such. This is just more politics.

The Art of Sin

sinning every minute is an art form

Right on, sinamin2001! We are not just merchants, we are also artists. Of course we are going to take pleasure and pride in creating art with our own products! And informing people what we used. What the heck is wrong with that? More art gets viewed. More products get sold. Everyone wins. No politics. Just good business.

CC

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 16:26

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I got tired of trying.

Of course if they really wanted us to do a better job they would tell us what they find about our posting as deserving to be moved to a different gallery in the first place!

Bluebeard- I'm with you- the ONLY time I post a credit on my pics is if it's a gift from the creators. I got tired too of haveing my pictures moved just because I used one of my own products in it. So screw it- we can't post to our own gallery in our own genre. We can't post to our own forum anymore. So screw it- who needs the hastle of posting here. My other gallery is much bigger and FREEer.

This issue is one of the reasons why I rarely post here. I would rather post my renders at another site that treats me like a community member/artist first & as a merchant second.

I still haven't receive any explanation why my Image {Searching} is in PS Gallery...I'm not selling anything in that Image and I'm not advertising anything in that Image...and you can't buy that texture because it's not for sell.....and the outfit and goggles are from Poserworld and I didn't even mention it on the pic...Who open this can of worms?...

This is why Les (sixus1 proper) hardly ever posts his artwork here. Doesn't post in the Poser forum here either much for the same reasons. Personal opinion: Do Away with the Product Showcase forum. Seems like extra work and sillie. Solution: Option of adding 'Ignore Artist' for people browsing the Galleries. Then the decision is up to them and not moderators. --Rebekah--

Oh yeah, get rid of the Product Showcase forum. Seems pointless when people get other people to post their promo for them there. "Hey, so and so has a great new prop set out!" complete with link to items. --Rebekah--

First, some of us are not on here 24/7. If you don't get an answer within a couple of hours, don't assume that you are being ignored.

Marforno, that morph for Judy is free. I made it made with Deecey's pack as a gift to the community and Deecey offered it as one of 10 faces in Free Stuff. When she gets hosting again, that pre-set face will again be freely available (I believe the link is currently broken). I got the wings in Traveler's PropsClub, but he might have had them as a Real Deal or somewhere else as an almost freebie. The dress was free. The texture was free. I slightly altered them after Jim fixed them. I posed the fairies. I made the background and frame. I had to pay 1.99 for the candles. Wow. I credited all the other makers. Nothing in that image is going to accrue to my financial advantage and Deecey had to pay money to give that morph away.

There is nothing in that image to stimulate sales of my products.

Your point? [edited to add, that as a contest entry a DAZ product was required... otherwise I would have made them, too.]

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 21:33

In the text area with my posts I tend to yack to the viewer often about what type of day I have had lol. I was working on a product and talked about that and so the image was moved to showcase and that is fine because on re reading what I wrote it did sound like a promo though it wasn't my intention. I also have no complaint in response to my Im to Shoshanna - she was lovely and explained and agreed if I altered the text it would be moved back. I did this removing all reference to my character and only left the hair and background credits (both free items) but it is still there in showcase. Could it be moved back to the poser gallery please
on another note I can see a lot of my images being moved because I have so much trouble creating scenes and create a lot of portraits with just background and face they aren't advertisements just my main style of art sigh
Chris :o)

Message edited on: 08/12/2004 21:41

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Pee on it and walk away

Most of Les' images use only his products. You will have to move all of those to the Product Showcase Gallery. Oh, and I have posted images in my gallery (Rebekah) that you will need to move. -------------------------------------------- I don't think that it is fair for people who create things for the Poser Community as a whole have to be punished because they have a viable skill. What you are doing is insulting them by moving what a lot of times they feel is ART. Something that they spent time on, using the things that they created and you relegate to nothing more than those annoying flyers stapled to the fence or phone pole. That is where a lot of this anger and fustration is coming from. They may be merchants, but everyone of them is an artist also. --Rebekah--

Attached Link: http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=1&aid=Corporate18200408120727

The blending of ads and art is mirrored by what is happening elsewhere in this capitalistic society. However, the more blatant the advertisement, the more consumers will rebel and flee. This is even becoming known to the marketers (who are seemingly impervious to restraint and common sense when it comes to product placement and who have become increasingly creative in ways to put ads constantly under our faces). This article is only the latest, and is filled with words such as ubiquity and prevalent... and a warning: ******************* "TV networks and advertisers are busily tearing down the wall that for about 40 years has separated programming from ads. Networks are scouring their schedules for places to weave brands and products into prime-time shows." *** "Whether it's called ''branded entertainment,'' ''product integration'' or ''contextualized commerce,'' product placement is taking many forms: " *** "The plugs can be so blatant that even advertisers wince. Burnett acknowledges that placement might have been ''too prevalent'' on his The Restaurant on NBC. The placements for Mitsubishi, American Express and Coors seemed ''ham-handed'' compared with Burnett's other shows, says Scott Donaton, editor of Advertising Age and author of the new book, Madison & Vine. ''If it's overdone, if it's not seamless, then you risk turning off your audience,'' he says. ''In that case, everybody loses.''" ********************** If *these* hard-boiled marketers are becoming embarrassed by the non-stop drumming, perhaps they really are afraid of losing their audience. Eyeballs can go elsewhere. The world is not yet wall to wall ads.

Huh? How about a human answer? Now I'm even more confused. Are you calling artist/merchants who list the products they use to create their images 'hard-boiled marketers'? Are they 'ham-handed, because they let people know what it is? This is hardly comparable to product placement. These ARE the products we use to create this art. And these are the images that SELL the products. Experienced marketing professionals know that it is much better to SHOW someone than to tell them. The MP shows the product. The gallery shows the product in action. That is always much more effective. It seems to me this is exactly what people what to know, because unless I'm really confused, this is a 3d site selling 3d products to people who are interested in buying and creating 3d images. Are you implying by the above 'quotes' that listing names of products under an art image will ultimately turn buyers off? Then why do you put the links in there that take them directly to the marketplace?. What is the purpose of product credits. Why do you advise us in the gallery info to list merchants and their products. Why should we exclude our own? Sorry, but your logic is not connecting on any reasonable marketing level with me. Or, what's going on in the Renderosity community. Renderosity sends all of us countless coupons, newsletters, and advertisements to encourage us to purchase more. Some might object to this but we don't, because we want to know what is on sale, and what's new, and what we are going to buy next. Because we have received the ads, the offers, and been stimulated by gallery images using products. In the year and a half we've been on Renderosity we've purchased thousands of dollars of products. As merchants, we've also made thousands of dollars for Renderosity. How about less 'quotes' and more real answers? Like how come people who aren't merchants have been put into the PSGallery? And all the other relevant questions that have been posted to this thread. Carol

Carolly, this "product integration" is hardly new. Go watch Back to the Future some time. Count how many times Michael J. Fox drinks a Pepsi Free, or how many times we see the J.C. Penney sign at the mall. That movie was made in 1985. And it was a huge hit that didn't seem to turn anybody off with its ads.

I use my own products in my art. I'm going to continue to use them. If for no other reason than I own them! Am I expected to go out and puchase someone else's products to use instead of my own? It seems a little silly if you ask me. I have never had anything moved (thank you), so I guess I'm not a serious offender. But things like this worry me. Sometimes this place gathers too much steam to get out of its own way.

-Heidi

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

For Rebekah and Les... You are among the considerate merchants. You have also raised some good points. Out of the maybe 200 images which get posted in the Poser section of the gallery in a 24 hour period, a handful get questioned for TOS violations and another handful or so get moved to appropriate galleries. These are judgement calls. An umpire working an evening game has to call them as he sees them at that moment. If it turns out the next day or decades later that he was wrong, little can be done. Here, people can not only prove their contention, but get an image moved back. I've considered moving more images than were moved, trying to balance artistic concerns against the promotional aspect. In general... Lines are repeatedly crossed. People complain. Steps are taken. There is a bit of cross-fire. People get upset. Sometimes people get caught in the cross-fire. Discussions get opened. Arguments made and points defended. Dust settles. Things are done. People may or may not agree... but they usually have a better understanding of various points of view. Without controversy and discussion, there would be no change. Without change, there is death. (Yes, part of the definition of life is change, growth, and reaction to stimuli.) This website has changed a lot since it was the Poser Forum. I remember the first yelps when it went commercial and the :gasp: store opened. The people who opened that store took hell for destroying the community spirit. There is no going back to the days when everything was shared freely, but I don't think it is necessary to turn the entire website into a mall. We will have to find a balance-point. NOTE: if I'm coming across as preachy tonight, it isn't intended. I have a hellacious headcold in addition to the migraine so I'm trying to formulate my thoughts through green slime. But if I don't type anything and go back to bed, you guys will think that I'm ignoring the issue. I'm not ignoring it or you, but it is going to be slow. And now I'm going to get another mug of peppermint tea.... Carolly

Please be a 'considerate' moderator and answer the relevant questions that others, including us, have asked. Carol

Go watch Back to the Future some time. That is product placement, but actually the reason they chose Pepsi over Coke or RC or something was because the Pepsi logo changed between 1955 and 1985. I always thought it was all about the product placement, but as it turns out, it was more about the art direction! :-) In fact, they tried to choose products that had substantially changed their "look", to add ot the "my how things have changed" mood. Mind you, this has ZIP to do with this thread. Never let it be said I can't divert a topic on a moment's notice... ;-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Well I found it interesting, Bonni. Of course, I'm a diet Pepsi drinker, so I fully endorse them using Pepsi over Coke. ;-) And I actually thought it was pretty damned funny when Michael J. Fox asked the guy in the '50s for a Pepsi Free, and was told, "if you want something, you have to pay for it." (Sorry that's not an exact quote, but it's the best I've got without popping in the movie.) Now back to your regularly scheduled flame war. ;-) runs and hides -Heidi

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

forgot to mention that out of the 200, there is also a handful of "staff picks"... images which are selected for the spotlight because they are good, yet possibly overlooked because the artist is new here or isn't part of a group, so isn't part of the Hot 20 crowd. Sometimes I choose images by merchants. There is nothing hypocritical in that. Sometimes artists become merchants because they are good. Sometimes an artist makes something because he needs it in order to make the image in his mind. The judgement filter at that moment is: "is this image so good that I want other artists to take a look?". My relationship to the artist (merchant, friend, or thorn n the side) or to the rest of their gallery doesn't matter... only the piece at hand. So, yes, I am aware that many merchants are also artists.

I will get to the rebuttals... AFTER I have finished making my points. Just like a ballot proposition, the sides make their statements, then the sides rebut the other's statements. ...remember that I said something about typing slowly?

I make pictures, I create almost all the elements used in the pictures, some are for sale here, some are for sale in another place, some are freestuff and some only exist in my home, in all pictures in my gallery (more than 200) there do not exist a single picture that haven't anything created by me, I seldom use anything from another person with exception of Vicky, hair and clothes (if Vicky is not nude as usual), so if there is any credit the credit is to me! I make art and people loves my art!

Stupidity also evolves!

Rather than feeding us a bunch of psychobabble, which is only further evidence of a lack of respect for our intelligence as well as a demonstration of the need of your psyche to feel superior, it would be polite and a show of respect if you would simply answer our questions as asked. Frankly, you've already made your point by moving images wihout any discussion because after all, your judgment is far superior to ours. So, are we permitted to state which products we use in an image? Are you now the person that will decide if we have created "art" or simply an "ad" regardless of whether or not the items used are ours or someone elses? Are all posts to be made without adjectives? Is a post acceptable if it simply lists the products used without an adverbs or adjectives? Is a post acceptable if it is done by a merchant and simply lists the products used, if all are currently available in the marketplace? Or, are you incapable of giving us some succint guidelines that will essentially diminish your power by removing the subjectivity of your previous actions and set objective standards that are easily measurable and therefore, require no psychobabble to explain?

The Art of Sin

sinning every minute is an art form

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=728959&Start=1&Artist=liewald&ByArtist=Yes

There are a couple of trigger points behind my trying to get the ad copy and promo pics under control. One of them is your constant harrassment and needling of liewald for NOT writing sales copy under his images. It is irritating to viewers. It got so bad that I IM'd him a couple of weeks ago asking if he wanted me to do something about it. This was part of his response: "I feel that r'osity should be about art and not about who can get the most sales.... sadly it aint like this at the moment as more and more members become merchants. there is a section that is for new products but the way people get round this is to get others to do the work and plaster credits all over the pic.... Ah what to do...... All I can do is laugh and tale the flak..." I do not feel that any member ought to "take the flak" for not hyping the merchants' wares for them, but that is his decision. Unfortunately, a new artist or one who lacks liewald's self confidence and sense of humor is going to think that unless he writes a sales pitch under his image, he, too will be shredded and publicly embarrassed. And so we'll have even more advertising.... NOBODY, new or established, ought to feel obligated to give credit much less write sales copy. If it is done, it is done as a courtesy by the artist. Carolly

Ahem. Ladies, perhaps we should keep our tones civil? Clint is still recovering from ernyoka's product propsition yesterday (don't ask!). :-P -Heidi (who is not a moderator, but plays one on TV)

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Now... If someone feels that his image was moved by mistake and wants it to be moved back, all he has to do is IM me (with the title or some other identifier) and I'll take another look at it. I am reasonable. I may not be as prompt as you wish, but I am reasonable. I will move the Danie/Marfono... wait, it is already moved. OK.

Wow how di I miss this argument. Bluebeard you rock man!!!! You have said everything I would have.

1. No matter whether it is a change in policy, or a change in enforcement of said policy, it is much better received if someone tells us what is happening, rather than just to do it. 2) I have made mistakes about images posted in the gallery, not on purpose; there was no evil intent. I just didn't look at them the same way as there were taken by the viewer. That is no surprise to anyone. Just a point to remember, that the artist does not necessarily intend to violate any policy of community. 3) If someone questions why something is removed, or moved, it would be helpful if an explanation could be made. I have had some that I asked questions on, that could not be explained. It leaves a bad taste in one's mouth, and we stop trying. 4) Its pointless to move them and move them back. Most of the hits are in the first 24 hours, so one has lost that point. If one of mine gets moved, I delete it, and will repost it later, without any commentary. Of course, I am stopping any credits whatsoever, as just the standard links automatically provided by R'osity are probably enough for me, and I am tired of the changes. 5) There are double standards, and as much of it depends upon who happens to see it, as much as anything. Some seem to get complaints, while others don't. Case in point- some time back I posted an image of Vicki and Mike in a loving position, no not a sexual position, just a romantic one. They weren't nude; they had clothes on, maybe not a lot, but enough. And it was received fine. Now I switch Mike out for Vicki, who was clothed similarly, but it was removed within 4 hours. Now both images were by the same person, and were done in a similar fashion, everything was the same, even the background. The only change was to replace Mike with Vicki. And it was pulled because it violated the TOS. NOPE, no double standard here. 5) So, I am a bit cynical about this discussion. I don't think anything will come of it here. Even if I thought I had a point, I am thinking that the decision has been made, and it is pointless to hassle about it. I could go on and on and on about different cases, but why. The only thing that would be accomplished is making someone mad at a customer, other merchants, the staff, or me. In any case I would lose. 6) Actually, I am usually pretty good to get along with. All that others and I ask is some warning that a policy is now in effect, or the enforcement is being changed as R'osity tries to go to a bigger market. Or any other reason that does make sense somewhere. And if we basically mess up with the policy, please don't talk down to us, as if we knew that we were wrong. Sometimes, it is unintentional, and a word or two by the staff would be well-received and taken to heart about correcting that. 7) I must apologize to some of the staff, because some are doing just that. And it was very well received. I think the last time one did that. I wrote back saying, "shoot! I didn't even think about that! Sorry, boy do I feel dumb right now, give me a minute and I will get it corrected!" So that is what gives us hope. Now if we could encourage that kind of response, to what they believe is in violation, we could all get along better. 8) We understand that there are ones that constantly push for an idea or won't give up, but don't let it get to you when dealing with the rest of us. Those people are in a very small minority, thankfully! 9) Those are my points, and for the time being no more credits will be given by me. The only thing under my postings will be a dialog of the story behind the pictures, as I finish up the series I am doing. After that, I don't know. I guess I will wait to see how this comes out. Leo

Ok guys, this time I will add some words. I don't know why, but I only sell here at Renderosity, Am I doing the right thing? lets see: 1Q) I put a new product and in just 2 days it goes all the way back in the pages, if I don't go to my own store front I can't even find my own products. 1A) So why limit galleries? I think galleries is one of the best way to remind customers our products or other merchants products which we buy. 2Q) Renderosity has a great person called Clint Hawkins. Hmmm is one Clint enough? 2a) I think we should clone him. Sorry I have to be honest. Clint is the only person who I have seen who has flexibility with thinking. I don't know if it is his position here giving him that option and others don't have it so that they are acting like robots or shall we really clone Clint or even transfer his cells to others? (This is half an answer half a question) :) 3Q) Are there really double standarts? 3A) Personally I do not think so. I mean when I was first starting I got the same good things and problems I am in the top 40 and still things are the same. I think people relations is a very important key here just like everywhere. I don't see a problem with that because that's how the world is. Best regards, Umut B. Aydin (umutov)

"I feel that r'osity should be about art and not about who can get the most sales" Clearly this isn't Renderosity's point of view. Let's take a look at the front page of Renderosity, the page that represents what this site is about... What is the very first thing you see? Merchant of the Month In the latest news section, of the 5 articles available there, 3 are promoting some type of product or service that Renderosity sells. Let's move on down the front page and what do we find? On Sale...Top Sellers...Featured Products...hmmmmmm...where's the art promotion? Moving further down the front page: Renderosity Happenings...All 7 articles promote some item available for purchase and most of them are RO products, not merchant products. So, it should be clear to anyone coming to this site that this is first and foremost a business, selling products. It is not primarily an art gallery. I agree that no one should be forced to give credit for what products are used in their images and if someone made liewald feel that way, shame on them. On the other hand, I don't have the time to answer a plethora of IM's asking me what product I used in an image, which is what happens when I don't list the products used. Additionally, I appreciate when an artist credits products used, because I may see something that I'd like to purchase and without those links, I have no clue what it is unless I write the artist and ask. Credits to merchants increase RO's sales and anyone reading the front page will realize that sales is the focus of this site, not artwork. Inner Traveler http://www.innertraveler.com is a site who's purpose is to promote artwork. Check out their front page. Again, we need some succint, objective guidelines as to how you are differentiating between a promo image and a work of art. I don't think that is too much to ask.

The Art of Sin

sinning every minute is an art form

because you made no sense at all last night?

Hmmm is one Clint enough? No, but at this point, nobody has achieved successful human cloning, and most places have put laws in place forbidding it. Hmph. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Ok time to speak
Yes Liewald and I have a friendly banter going on but I never took into consideration how others would view our banter and this seems to be responsible for all this. I am offering a formal apology to all following this thread It was all in fun and never intended to harm anyone in anyway
People who don't know us and our sense of humour could view it as pressure - not refering to mods or admin but new users - to promote works of merchants. I will be more conscious of this in the future
again sorry for any problems this has caused to merchants artists and moderators
Chris :o)
goes back to my corner now ps Dave is having a good laugh at me right now

Message edited on: 08/13/2004 08:57

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Pee on it and walk away

Ohhh comeon BONNI, all you do is get a few pics of CLINT. If you want you can use DAZ3D M3 morph packs and a little dial work or better way is using magnets. If you want to make real cool clone, I prefer 3DS-MAX for this process. Anyways I would just like to say that I have seen all of us hitting hauksdottir and I do not think that, it is fair. First of all, that person is a MOD here and doesn't have any other option than doing what the outlines tell her to do. I think putting pressure on her is not the way of solving or arguing this problem. Hmmmmmm LET"S ATTACK CLINT!!!! hehe just felt like a GRANDPA SIMPSON line. lol No let's destroy renderosity, nope that won't do either. I think the best way is to start a clean pool for this and open it to the whole community and really see where we are standing. Let's not forget that, just because we think something our way, it doesn't mean that everyone else thinks the same way. Because if really people who are not merchants here are not happy with the promotings in the gallery sections. I think we should listen to them (Now I am not sure if us merchants buy each others products more or is the main customer group non merchants) Best regards, Umut b. Aydin (umutov)

Message edited on: 08/13/2004 09:04

one of the guidelines in the store is no postwork would that work in the product showcase gallery too just a thought and knowing me probably not a good one lol

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Pee on it and walk away

what are you poeplel doing? this is renderositty you can not argue with a modoratour desison hear! you do note have any saye in the mattor! this is not a democrasy! the moderatours are alwayes right! you shoude not even post why waste your time dont you know your conserns will only be ignoed here anyway?

Let's see... Some markers in a marshy borderland? I'm going to try to use hypotheticals so as to not embarrass any particular merchant. Apologies in advance for framing this in the negative, but some of you may feel that this is akin to an IRS audit, and you want to avoid examination. If you don't want your image moved to Product Showcase, try to avoid doing the following, because they act like flags, to trigger a closer look: 1) Avoid titling the image the name of the product. If the title is "Cricket" and the image is of woman wearing a texture called "cricket", it will appear to be an ad for the product even before the thumbnail is clicked. If this is a work of art, you must have had a reason to put the time into the image. Who is she? What is she? What is she doing? Just about anything but the name of the product will help viewer interest (and keep that flag from triggering). 2) Avoid showing the same product from different POVs, and doing it several days running. Monday: "Cricket - Face", Tuesday; "Cricket - Front", Wednesday: "Cricket - Back", Thursday: "Cricket in Green Light", Friday "Cricket - Feet".... By the time we see the toenail polish, we've seen a lot of Cricket. You may indeed be proud of all your hard work getting the texture seams to match (I've tried it, it's a tough job), but that is what Product Showcase is for: SHOWCASING the product. The repetition is like being bombarded with the same ad on the radio... it might even have music in it, but it isn't a song. 3) Avoid writing ad copy. We already know that you are a merchant (it says STORE right under the image). However, if the write-up uses the catch phrases "Soon in the Marketplace!" "Introductory Sale!!!" or even has a direct link to that product page "Check her out ... Click HERE", it reads like an ad. Saying "We are proud to introduce Angelique" is borderline, saying "Angelique - The Wings You Have Waited For - available NOW!!!" is marketing hype. 4) Avoid describing the contents of the package in detail. If we are looking at, say, a spaceship interior with reptilian alien inserted for scale, do we need to know that the package contains 6 rooms, 4 interchangeble corridors, and preset lights and cameras? If we really really really want to know how many rooms are in the package, we can click on your STORE link right under the image. 5) Avoid large product symbols on the thumbnail or art if possible. Sorry, but product and merchant branding does indeed trigger a flag. If I look at the thumbnail and all I see is the store brand, it is like clicking on the S for Safeway. (In another thread on thumbnails, it was mentioned that large signatures and brands were a turn-off anyway... if viewers don't click on your image, you lose the opportunity to show off what you have created... whether it is an ad or not.) 6) Avoid images showing just the product. A simple background made with a filter or two is probably not enough, depending upon genre. Pin-ups seem to feature scantily-clad backgrounds, though. ;^) If you are selling a spellbook, and the only thing in the image is a close-up of the spellbook... well, that looks like an ad. If the book is spotlighted in a wizard's chamber with nubile figure arising from the pages and a couple of glowy bits, maybe the viewer will think "I want a book like that, too!", but it will look more like art featuring the product and less like an ad for the product. 7) Avoid having the beta-testers or collaborators rave about the product, especially with the same words pointing out the same features. This might be difficult, but ad copy reads like ad copy whether it is by the person who made the dress or the person who made the texture on the dress. We have seen linked names often enough, that we might not know if someone really is a sister, lover, or business partner... but we do know that it isn't an arm's length relationship. I hope that this helps a bit, and will be glad to clarify my reasoning further. Carolly

What if we follow all this, or in some cases we have, and it still gets moved?

Carolly, I appreciate the time you took to clarify your decision making process,and I understand it is a difficult choice. However it still seems very subject to your particular pov,likes and dislikes, etc. Particularly Point 6. There are many fine works of art that use a simple background and show only one thing. This could be a portrait, or a body, or really anything the artist chooses to focus the art on. To say this type of presentation is an ad instead of art really seems very bias.You know another moderator could have a different pov, and this creates impossible standards to follow. We personally have never asked any of our beta testers or anyone else we give our products to, to rave about it, or say anything special. That is the total choice of the artist doing the work. And we're just thrilled that they took the time to create an image using our product, mostly because it is so wonderful to view another artist's interpretation. In addition, people who purchase our products and create art images also say nice things about our products. Many are also merchants. I would hate to have their art moved to the PSG simply because they said nice things. Carol

@ #51: Thank you for clarifying, Carolly. -Heidi

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Animal Farm! :O)

Love is Grandchildren.

Carol, You are right about #6. One of the merchants I had in mind uses only a flat black ground, another a photographer-type cloud thingy... so bland that it is never seen, and a third just has a standard frame. A certain amount of white space is a tradition in some genres... for some car art, pure white. IIRC, I had one of those and left it because it was within the tradition. It wasn't just popped onto a flat ground: the artist actually considered the composition. These aren't absolutes (I did mention marshy ground and markers can be moved if there is a new survey). Also, they only trigger a closer look. Part of why I'm actually glad this discussion has boiled to the surface is that it gives us the chance to look at the issues. If the Gallery is seen as merely an extension of the Marketplace, is this a good thing or a bad thing? Why is this a common perception? If ads are as welcome as merketers (and venders) say they are, why do people flee, change channels, complain, and otherwise try to avoid being drowned in them? If ads are as bad as consumers say they are, why does capitalism work? If all the other places for ads and all the other encouragement of merchants (such as the Rendo newsletter) aren't enough, so that the galleries must also be filled, what happens when that isn't enough to induce sales, either? (Or has that line been crossed... there are many, many more merchants than there used to be... yet the products available look pretty much the same, filling the same niches.) Is Renderosity merely a mall for people to sell to each other, or is there a place for education, exhibiting, and socializing... and should these other interests have some protection? These are all concerns. I'm afraid that I have to go lie down with an icepack for a while, and maybe get a spot of sleep,... but I'll be back. Carolly

Ok... is it really that huge of an ordeal? What in the world does it even matter? For some reason, [the powers that be] act like if someone opens up an image that says "Coming Soon" that the veiwer is going to be terribly offended and exit Renderosity at once.. I think [TPTB] should be focusing time on something of a different matter than nitpicking and moving gallery images around. - The "Poser Gallery" gets more hits than the "Product Showcase". We, merchants, are looking for a wider public, no? - In the "Poser Gallery" we have a "Character Forumulas" sub-topic. Hmm... - - - - - - - Why don't you guys just add "Product Showcase" the the sub-topic list, thus giving it a wider spectrum?

“Our real discoveries come from chaos, from going to the place that looks wrong and stupid and foolish.” – Palahniuk

"I hope that this helps a bit, and will be glad to clarify my reasoning further. Carolly" Carolly This type of response is what may be 'triggering' the type of replays you are seeing in this thread. Members are asking here for Renderosity policy, not your personal reasoning or rhetoric. Renderosity has established the 'Galleries' based on work created by specific commercial software, POSER, VUE, XFROG, ZBRUSH,3DS ... not a good or bad issue ... it's just the way it is. It is logical, useful organization of images and it makes good sense. Why? Because these are not fine ART galleries ... they are digital art galeries organized by the type of commercial software used to produce the ART within. Why? Because, it gives the artists who use these products a place to communicate ... or bond if you will as in the commercial term BONDWARE. Why? So they can share and learn how to use the software and related products they have purchased and so they can find out what new 3rd party products are available for use with their 'Renderware' of choice. 3D digital art is a highly collaborative medium and that's what the galleries are all about .... collaboration. There is no other kind of art in the history of the world that enables the expression of creativity of individuals in such an empowering way. Every artist begins collaborating with the talanted artists and programmers that create the software they are working with in the first place. Then they collaborate with one amazing 3rd party product after another as they choose their characters, lights, backgrounds, props, poses, skys, seas, and yes even their moon and suns. Many of these 3rd party products take months of time to create and are true labors of love. Many are also highly innovative, constantly pushing the envelope. When the adverts hit, most merchants and product developers are exhausted just getting their products into a final saleable form. For the most part, little ART has actually been created using them. If merchants are fortunate enough to be associated with a few great beta testers or render artists, I for one want to see their work and know how it was done. This is what the Galleries are all about ... shareing work ... artistic and commerical. That is why the eyeballs come ... hungry and ready to see, learn, buy and enjoy. It simply makes no sense to post ART for arts sake in a RENDEROSITY gallery does it? If it's 2D we want to know what software they used. If it's photography, we what to know what digital camera right? Where else can we find that out? My wife and I started with Renderosity a year and a half ago and had never used POSER before. Thanks to the POSER galleries, we've been able to learn the who, what, when, where, and why of creating stunning art. We've been able to interact with some of the finest artists and most prolific merchants in the world and value every single word they have to say about their work, their products and what works and what doesn't. We've gleaned the vast majority of our knowledge from the POSER gallery. Actually, the R'osity POSER Gallery is where we, and thousands of others, have learned how to put smiles on our lips, gold on our hearts, and TEARS on our cheeks! lj heart

I am sorry, but I just posted my latest rendering. Since I am a merchant, I can not call it art. I have been telling a story, a story that has evolved over 3 months now, and the next chapter has started today. BUT, with the recent uncertainty in credits, I have purposely chosen NOT to credit anyone, and it is a shame, because your product is such a dream. Until someone can tell me exactly what is and what isn't appropriate on credits, I will no longer be doing credits. The reason is several in nature, but at this time, I am telling a story, a story to some fans that have developed over my work. And not my work as a merchant, but my work as a renderer and a story teller. I post these images in the poser gallery for their enjoyment, not for displaying of my product. Well, that is probably enough of a rant on this subject. It looks like very few have paid any attention to the points that I made, other than umutov! Well back to my rendering, since I am not an artist!

BB - I say do your art your way - with or without credits - with or without words. Don't ever lose the joy of creating because of the BS. You made some excellent points. You care, are involved, and want to see things improve.. BTW - your image and story are very cool ... I mean 'hot'! :o) LJ is commenting on it as I write this. CC

Yeah, I am just disappointed when the ones that I am trying to make the points to, don't address them!

Please stand by, we are taking this to a meeting now.... We understand both sides of this issue and want to try and make everyone happy.

You can't call it work if you love it... Zen Tambour

 

Any news on how the meeting is going ? Chris:o)

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Pee on it and walk away

I hope when there is they post a new thread. this one is going back fast. :O)

Love is Grandchildren.

thats the plan turtle :)

bump

Spike, what's the status on gallery postings? Did you have your meeting, and if so, did you post the results somewhere else? Please let us know. Thanks. C&H

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12413&Form.ShowMessage=1895313

See link

Thanks, BB. :o) CC