No real difference from the other one safe to say that I've thought about it and realized that there was little rendering difference between the thing with glass and without it. So in this case I've made all that stuff insvisible and won about 2 hours of rendertime. Mind you, it's still crappy, which will mean that I will have to suffer through the 2 day render fine anti-aliasing is predicting. All the same, this is the final thing. It's about 94.5% accurate (well, maybe 94.6 :P). A PS filter and one of them figures that I begged off someone. Drac