Hey guys.. I proposed a set of small indicator icons to be placed on main product images, and want feedback. The point of these is "at a glance" regognition of product compatibility. Here are 3 proposed ones for P4, P5 and Daz Studio compatibility. I'd like these to be free to distribute, and with luck, the idea can be picked up at all merchant sites. How many times have you had to dig through a sometimes poorly written product description, only to find out that it doesn't support either P4 or P5? Here are my initial proposal.. these are no where near engraved in stone, and I eagerly would like submissions from interested parties for these. I've posted similar thread at daz, Poser Pros, and RDNA as well. Please feel free to echo this post, and attached image to any poser content site you shop at, and would like to see something like this at.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I'd use 'em if I had to but if I had my own choice I'd design my own to fit in with my colour scheme and font styles. Not that there's anything wrong with your designs, just not to my taste.

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The ones I did are in photoshop layers, and I used layer styles to do all effects. That way, any of the colors can easily be changed to fit different subjects. The posted image is about 2/3 larger then what I'd recommend using. Again, ANY good ideas or better icons are encouraged! There's no way we can get everyone to agree on something like this, but if we can get a large number of people happy with a base idea, it can always be adapted by others. Keeping the base style I feel is important though, to make it easily recognizable to all. We can even have a suggested location on main product images as well, to again make them easier to locate and use.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Nothing really to add/suggest, but I just wanted to say that I think this is a wonderful idea! I hope you get the support you need to implement it. :)

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Good idea, but add Pro Pack icon as well.

I definitely agree that it's a good idea - including the Prop Pack icon - and hope you gain acceptance for it.

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I like the style. You do need a Pp icon.

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This is a great idea. Sometimes it is really hard to tell which items work where.

Would be great if the vendors could agree on standard icons so buyers won't overlook somebodys 'different' design.

There is already a set available for download in the Merchants Resource stuff for merchants to use on their thumbs or promos or whatever.

Does anyone actually make anything that is meant to be compatible with D/S. I feel it's up to individual merchants to devise their own labels to show potential customers what it works in. If not can we have a pretty logo for all the variants of C4D, MAX, VUE...

I think this should specifically be for flavors of poser.. P4, PP, P5, and D|S.. add too many more, and the entire promo image will be nothing but icons. (BTW is there any REAL difference between P4 and PP?) I think a VERY small percentage of the poser purchasing community actually buys Poser content for Max, for instance, and I don't know many merchants that are gonna shell out $1500 or so to test it in Max. Oh, and Pizzazz, this isn't meant to be website specific. This is hopefully a resouce and idetifying system that will cross merchant website "borders". Kinda like the XP logo on software, you see it and know in one second that it will work on your system. Hmmm maybe the XP choice wasn't the best example?? LOL!

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

That's better.

Yes there is a big difference between PP and P4. The bump maps are different. Icons are png instead of rsr. And with a lot of products you get blank icons in PP. I see some products that are made for PP and P5, some for just P5 and some made just for P4. It also gets confusing when they may mean P4 as in posette and not Poser 4.

Not to be a stick in the mud but shouldn't DAZ Studio have it's own forum or free area? Some didn't go in for DAZ.

Yes. There's a difference between P4 and P5 that some vendors don't always point out. That's why I don't buy from daz any more.

Becco, if you aren;t part of the solution, you are part of the problem.. ever heard that saying? I've no love at ALL for P4 or PP, but DO see the need to help those customers identify items that will work with the software they choose to use. By showing your contempt for any of the possible poser rendering options, you just push away those customers who use it. Not a very smart move, eh? The point of this is NOT to battle over who likes what software.. it's to create an easy system that will make lifeasier for all us poser related customers. Oh, Rance.. I think there IS a DS forum isn't there? And daz does have it's freepository thread at Daz. And Since D|S takes P4 product, why separate it? We don't separate P4, PP and P5 content...

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=607848

I suggested something akin to this when the Marketplace first opened and folks were downloading freebies that were addons to commercial items they didnt have, plus the Renderosity exclusive.

They didn't take mine, but it worked out (BIG ;) )
Also check out this link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=609345

Message edited on: 08/31/2004 23:38

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I like the idea. I think however there should be an icon for stuff that works in ALL applications, like P4, PP, P5 and possible D|S too. Some people do make stuff that works in both P5 and P4 ;o) I know I try (supplying rsr's instead of png's but as I have no way of creating the .bum bumpmaps I put a jpg in the pack with an explanation on how to convert it for P4 users.)

Oh and.. as an analogy to the WinXP logo, why not use the official Poser 4/5 logos and the Daz Studio one? (like what the file associations icon look like)

I think you'll find most "customers" will like the idea (I think it's great) but convincing all the vendors/merchants is going to be one hell of an uphill struggle, especially when they'll likely have their own ideas about what they should look like. Good luck Gareee you have my vote :)

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The big difference between P4 and PP, as far as product compatibility is concerned, would be Python - any add-on that uses it will be PP/P5 only at best. Not sure if the setup room would make any difference to products - maybe for some merchant tools? - but that's PP and later too.

Nope, RHaseltine. Don't forget that Poser 4 can't read PNG thumbnails and that any mat pose that uses a jpg bumpmap will need to have the .jpg converted to a .bum first - a conversion you only can do in Poser 4. The main differencies between PPP and P5, when it comes to backwards compatibility is that the bump node is connected wrong when you use a PPP mat pose in P5. Apart from that, PPP stuff works great in P5 (though of course P5 has a lot on extra features) A few python scripts doesn't work equally good in PPP/P5, some of them work in PPP and not P5 and some the other way.

True on the PNG, but since the only difference between P4 and PP is the bump reference (almost everyone lets the user do the conversion from jpg to bum) I was simply assuming no one would produce a PP-only product for that reason alone. (Come to that, converting the PNG to an RSR is trivial, on the PC at least, so for commercial packages should again be a non-issue.)

Xena came up with a set that you can change color on easily. The problem someone brought up about using logos, is that we'd have to get permission to use them, and people might approach the companies themselves, if an issue was found with a release.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I'd rather use the official logos if I had to use anybody else's logo. 2) If there are a bunch of logos, nobody will see past them to the thumbnail... they must be there for people looking for them but out of the way. Nerd has managed to balance this quite nicely. 3) DAZ|Studio is not Poser. It is another application which imports some Poser content... just like Vue and Shade and Cararra3 take Poser content, but are not Poser. D|S should not have an icon piggy-backing to a competitor, but have its own icon. If you have an icon for D|S, you ought also to have icons for the other programs which import Poser content... which will clutter the field even more. If you are going to insist upon icons for P4 and P5, you should also have one for ProPack. It is distinctive enough. And what are you going to do about Poser Artist? In any case, I'd rather find this information in the notes and requirements or in the readme, since there are often issues particular to use, which need more text then you will get in an icon. Carolly

Yep, there should be P4, PP, P5, And D|S.. many people are now buying poser content, and using it in D|S, before buying poser itself. And that number will grow, just as P5 users numbers have increased over the years. The point of the icons are to show compatibility with the major poser content programs. While it's IS good to also have it in the readme, many artists do not have good communication skills, and this is a spear head much like Nerd attempted, but without poser marketplace specific connections.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

...another daz commercial

Yeah Tunesy.. reread the original post, and say that again. The intent of this is to help the poser community. And again, if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

...cheezy self righteous sanctimonious daz commercial.

How the .... can anyone see this as a Daz commercial?!

It's the usual Nay says that have bogged the poser community down forever. It's a ...cheezy self righteous sanctimonious P4 commercial. It's a ...cheezy self righteous sanctimonious PP commercial. It's a ...cheezy self righteous sanctimonious P5 commercial. It's a ...cheezy self righteous sanctimonious D|S commercial.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

in my opinion. Each program should have an established recognizable individual unchanging icon of a set size. each should have a diffrent established color so that they are easily sorted visual in the brain without having to read the characters. (You don't have to read a stop sign to know what it is if you see them all the time. but if you see one of a diffrent color, you'll stop and read it every time. Construction/detour signs you have to read because they are all the same color and shape but convay diffrent information) if you have a designated color for each program (and i advocate setting up one for every program not just poser/ds programs) then the vendor can use at 2 to 4 pixel line accross the bottom of the thumbnail to communicate the compatability. i.e. a 4x4 pixel box of a specific color in the lower left indicates compatability with one program and if it is compatable with muliple programs it will be two (or more) 4x4 pixel boxes lined up. The icons should have a designated location. i.e. lined up from the lower left corner of the number one image. this will help customers know where to look and what they are looking at. The best way to do this is to get it added to the marketplace as a required field/check boxes and let the icons load from the marketplaces server lined up in a specific place. if it is left up to the venders i doubt you will see very many using them. those that do are the people who already clearly describe their products.

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Good input, TygerPurr.. BUT this would be assuming it was ONLY used at Rendo. Part of the point, is to get somethiung like this in use at ALL the poser marketplaces.. Daz, RNDO, Poser Pros, ect. The likelyhood of all of them caring, or implimenting something like this is nill. Poser aritsts, however, have as much to gain as customers.. customers can find what they want a little faster, and poser artists will probably see increased sales with instant compatibility very visible. However, of course, poser artists who don't really care about compatibility, or their customers might see (and justly so, I believe) decreased sales.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

well if you want to move forwared in that direction i think yould need to establish a website (even if it is only one page) not on any of the aformentioned sites and layout the icons and the rules and regulations for using them. Then get in touch with the big boys. both site admins and major modelers/marketers/sellers. get them all on board, get the admins to link to the site or establish the automatic icons (as suggested in my previous post) if possible and the modlers to add the graphics to thier producs if the auto icons are not established. I love the idea and i think it could work. ps. i'd say talk with the reps of the diffrent companies and ask if you can use their logo in the icon, worst they can do is say no.

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...and get Dr. Geep to make a tutorial on proper icon use :)

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"many people are now buying poser content, and using it in D|S". I doubt that 1% of Poser content sales go to non-Poser users. DS warrants no special mention in any icons on any product outside daz' own site. There are far more polished apps than DS that would then have to be included and things would get far too messy. Daz is unbelievable. I've run a very successful company aggressively, but always ethically, for 20 years...Daz uses Poser as a launch pad, then tries to nudge them out of the way with vaporware under a charade of 'friendliness' and even tries to hijack a forum for the core product that kept them in business. How do you sleep at night? I couldn't look myself in the mirror doing business like that.

Message edited on: 09/02/2004 17:42

Tyger, it's been attempted in the past. And as you can easily see right here, there are people who just hate specific programs and companies. There is no way any of these guys are all going to work together, because they already work against each other, in many cases. It's been brought up before, and discarded. That's whay I'm trying to start a grass roots movement without having to deal with all that other garbage. We only really need the 5 icons for the 5 major poser content usage programs. Tunesy, your colors are showing badly, and you are just making yourself look like a jerk. Get off your soapbox, and try being a positive force for people to admire and emulate.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Take your daz propaganda to the daz forum. Daz is a revolting example of business practices.

Message edited on: 09/02/2004 19:23

Ya know i really don't give a rats arse about who likes what company or what program. It is completely irrelevant to establishing these icons. Your not asking them to work together. Your asking them to work with you (or whomever establishes the standard) for their benefit. This is why i suggest not basing your icons, rules and such on any of the established sites.

If some vendor doesn't want to claim D|S compatibility thats their choice. But if they do claim it then it dam well better be true.

Grass roots movement is a great idea. Getting some well known names well established vendors to back you up will make the grass grow faster. Keep up the grass roots but don't ignore the big guys.

In my honest opinion (of the big sales sites) DAZ is probably the least of your concerns. Most of the time you can pretty well guess what your getting from DAZ. Rosity is probably the one you need to have either on board or on the record as not opposing the icons. The last thing you need is for the stores to reject promo images because of the icons.
You should solicit the opinions of individual vendors and PoserPros, Renderotic, RuntimeDNA, 3dCommune (and others I'm sure can be named).

I think if its sold right this could very easily be put into play.

I think to some extent with something like this you may just have to throw down and say this is what I am establishing give me feed back. Then move forward with it ignoring the nay sayers. Remember your not asking the vendors or the sites to do hardly anything. They are already testing their products. Your offering them a recognizable symbol (that transcends language barriers) that will be to their advantage to display. The only work they have to do is add this unobtrusive icon to their promo images and maybe a link to the web page that delineates what the symbols mean or if the sales sites support the icons then they will just have to check the appropriate boxes.

Dlfurman's idea was good. I think it's biggest drawback was that there was no financial interest at stake. Something like what your proposing could have a positive effect on sales. It will probably also be something you have to actively support by e-mailing vendors who are not using them and inviting them to use them.

Please pardon me if i get ahead of you, but I'm kinda enthusiastic about this.

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I am too. we already have quite a number of names behind this, but we just need more feedback on icons n such. Adding Poser artist and PP was something I had initially forgotten. There are threads here, 3d cummune, poser pros, rdna, and daz as well, with great feedback from them all.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I am asking everybody to be civil... which means discussing the merits of the idea. There is a quote from Robert Louis Stevensen, who says: "It is the mark of a good action that it appears inevitable in retrospect." If this content labeling is a good idea, it will inevitably happen... in its own good time. Carolly Renderosity Moderator

Is there any difference betwen Poser Artist and Poser 4 (other than the early download versions of PA needing the 4.03 update)? The application is supposed to be identical, the content may have been tweaked.

I was under the impression that poser artist was poser pro pack.

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While it might be exactly the same, a noobie user probably wouldn't even know that, and the cost of adding one more small icon is minimal.. ;)

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Poser Artist = Poser 4 no Propack sniping, arguing and procrastinating aside, it's a good idea. you only need 4 icons tho. P4, PP, P5, DS. no more no less. why? those are the 4 main programs at this time that can read Poser Content and use it as poser content. that should be the critea here. if a program can use the content (PZ3 etc) as native then it should get an icon if the differences warrent : eg : I can open Poser content in Maya using trinty. but does Maya need an Icon? nope. it opens straight PZ3's but does not write them back.

I kinda think there should be a bryce icon too because ther is bryce content avaiable and it is not compatable with...well anything. :p

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He Hee...

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

If there are icons for Bryce and D|S, there have to be icons for Shade and Vue and Cararra. They are not Poser but import Poser content directly.

Bryce was mentioned as a joke.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

i could see that. perhaps it would be best not to include bryce for now. Perhaps reserve that for future expansion of the icons. D|S however is more similar to Poser and uses much of the same stuff (cr2, pz2 etc) and poser content could boast D|S compatibility because not everything is.

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" I am asking everybody to be civil" HEY!!! That's my line.. ;)

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Proposed Product Icons...