Let me begin this by saying that I have been an avid anti spammer ever since I came online...I am bombarded by spam and even if hundreds of spam emails are caught by my server spam filter and blocked senders list,dozens slip through every day!So before I get started,understand that I am totally anti spam ok!! I own a site called Dreamslayerartworks.com which I found out was blacklisted by spamcop,a little site with grand ambitions of making the net safe for fascism everywhere!!!To begin,my site is non commercial and the only emails sent out are ebots notifying members of forum comments and and pm's...so how we got on a blacklist for spamming bewildered me because if members don't want the ebots they can make a change in their profile to stop them!What I was told shocked the living hell out of me as it seems I can be totally innocent,all it takes is an accusation and they even say they don't need that...they can blacklist me for having the letter "a" in my domain name!!They don't need to verify that the claim is factual,they aren't responsible for their actions and they aren't required to remove you from their blacklist even when they find out you are innocent!!If you share a server with up to a hundred other sites it doesn't matter,if even one of those sites is accused of spamming they can blacklist every site on that server!!Their reasoning is that they are trying to pressure the server hosts to do more to stop spamming even though spamming isn't illegal and they have no legal reason to do what "spamcop" wants as long as the activity is lawful...they can be sued by the site owner and spamcop doesn't care. The idea here is simple,persecute the innocent with the guilty to force the innocent to put pressure on their server host to act...but again,they don't need proof that anyone has even committed a crime,just an accusation!!To me this was mind blowing and even if I missed a few finer points because I was throughly pissed,I've had several people check the spamcop forum thread and all were shocked to see their response...in the end,their suggestion was to have my host change my sites email server,I do not see the reason why based on what they say because just one report of a spammer on the new server can get us blacklisted again and we'll be just as innocent!!! We are talking about an organization established to combat spam people...not to establish some totalitarian dream for a little goose stepper who wants the power to nail anyone he pleases because he has the power to do so!!!As an avid anti spammer myself,I am totally opposed to this way of thinking to stop spam and if you want the freedom to surf sites online you better pay attention to this issue as for my site it doesn't impact me at all...it impacts the members,they are the victims here not myself!The ebots are a convenience only and being blacklisted in this regard would be a pathetic joke if it weren't for the petty little minds behind the site that did this!!So,if you use spamcop or some other service to help filter out the junk you don't want,remember...these jackasses could also be blocking sites you want to recieve email from or if you're a site owner,they could block you from reaching your members!!You and only you have the right to decide who you recieve email from~no one has the right to make that decision for you unless you ask...and if you ask,they should still be required to act with consideration to law and ethics!! So if you're not recieving email from sites you expect email from,chances are they've been blacklisted and these "vigilantees" aren't required to tell you or even the sites themselves that they've been blacklisted...I remain anti spam but if this is the only way to combat it,I'd rather trust my server hosts spam filter and my blocked senders list so that at least the power to decide remains in my hands~not some fascist McCarthyistic blacklist that harms the innocent more than the guilty! These are my opinions~but you are free to post your own pro or against views!

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

I have been a customer of Spamcop for years now. I pay for a filtered account with them, and I think it's well worth it. Spamcop is not a "little" site, and they've been online since at least 1997 (possibly longer).

Spamcop only block IP addresses. If an IP address is reported as spamming, it goes into the database, and if no more complaints come from it, it eventually gets removed. I'm not entirely sure the technicalities of it, but I suggest that you go to the Spamcop site and read up on their FAQs if you'd like to know the details.

Spamcop's list of IPs known to have been sending spam is free for any ISP to use, and some do so quite irresponsibly. They just filter without allowing people a chance to see what's being rejected, and that necessarily includes a number of "false positives" because no system if perfect.

I really suggest that you learn more about Spamcop, who they are, and how they operate before you throw around words like "fascist" and bringing Nazis into it. It's a worthwhile and valuable service, and without their services, I'd be drowning in the hundreds of spam messages I receive every day. Thousands of other people also use their service and millions of spam messages are reported to the originating ISP because of Spamcop.

bonni

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 21:07

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Attached Link: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/

I wonder if an addendum to Godwin's Law is in order... *The longer a forum exists the probability of a daily comparison, involving Nazis or Hitler, approaches 1"* :-)

Well..thank the Gods I use "MailWasher"! :)

MailWasher is a nifty little program, but it's not automatic. That's why I use Spamcop. The stuff goes into my spam trap and then I go through a couple times a day (because I do get that much spam!) and report all the spam and forward on the legitimate mail (which is just a tiny percentage of the volume in the spam trap). The spam all gets reported to the originating ISP and to Spamcop's databases.

I've seen people bitch about Spamcop before (and the spammers really, REALLY hate them for obvious reasons). The problem is not with Spamcop, who just collect data about IP address that are sending spam (and by the way, I went and looked it up, and an IP address only stays in the database for 3 days; it remains there ONLY until there are no more complaints against that IP address). The problem is with the ISPs who implement the filtering without allowing users to view what's being rejected or be given a chance to add it to a "pass filter" list.

bonni

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 21:51

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

My cable ISP provides its own spam filtering.

Seems to work.

My several-years-old dial-up account -- which I've maintained, but will soon cancel -- has no such built-in spam protection.

Over time, I've been offered many things.

It's amazing just how many former ambassadors to Zaire, ex-Sri Lankan generals, and Kenyan postal officials attempting to flee the country want to transfer tens of millions of dollars into my personal bank account -- just so that they can get the money into the US.

I'm sincerely flattered. It's frankly amazing that these people have ever even heard of me.

I suppose that my pitiful 3D Art has made me famous in Africa, as well as in various small third-world island nations. That's why they are offering such substantial sums of money to me -- and all that I need do is to provide them with my banking information!

However -- I haven't taken any of them up on their various offers yet.

I'm waiting to see which one of them will give me the best deal overall.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

First let me say that this is not a matter of my professing innocence...they freely admit that my site isn't spamming anyone!!!The only emails sent from my site are ebots for pm's and forum comments...there are no ads and in fact I pay for the server I use rather than use a free server for this very reason. They justify adding my site to their blacklist because there could be another site on that server that that does spam...but of course,there is no proof of that either.They freely admit thay can add a site to their blacklist for any reason...that anyone can make a complaint and that alone is enough to put you on their list...even if you prove you're not spamming,they aren't required to remove you! They provide me with no proof of anything except a list of three "possible" sources that may have sent them the report...three other spam reporting services and they can't even tell me which one sent the complaint cause they don't know themselves apparently!!So...where's the verification that you would think they would need before adding a site to a spam list???There is none and even if there were,you would think they would be required to provide at least some proof to justify this. As for my ref to nazi's and fascism...its only within a totalitarian atmosphere that blacklists are created that knowingly place the innocent with the guilty and burn them all regardless!!To say that because one site on a server is a spammer and that this justifys blacklisting every site on that server is ridiculous!! I notice that Eliza once again has jumped in to refute what I said without even reading what was said...the reason for this post was due to a forum thread on their site in which I spoke directly to these people and they told me these things themselves!As a subscriber of course you have no problems Eliza...you haven't had the joy of being a site owner who gets blacklisted by these people when even they admit you're probably innocent but that doesn't matter!!Course who cares if the tracks are greased with the blood of the innocent,at least the trains are running on time...thats why I referred to them as fascists and nazi's,they don't care if you are innocent nor do they care to set things right,they have the power to do things as they want and there's nothing you can do about it! But then,me and Eliza have gone at it before...if I say its raining she'll come in soaking wet complaining of sun burns lol~thats not an attack,just a humorous over view of every time we address one another in a forum~one day we will either agree or Eliza will actually win an argument with me but that day won't be today;P The trick here is to understand one thing...they themselves say you don't have to do anything wrong to get on their blacklist,you can be completely innocent as their goal is to force site owners to suffer so we will put pressure on them to do more to stop spam~legally they can't,spam isn't illegal in most cases even though certain abuses can be!!So,by their own admission its not a matter of right or wrong...its a matter of abusing their own authority to achieve by coersion of honest site owners to achieve what they cannot acieve on their own!

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

And Bonni...again you missed the point!They state openly that it doesn't have to be me or my site that did this...it can be any site on that server and we are all blacklisted!Now,if you consider ebots that you willingly optioned to allow be sent to you spam...then I totally agree!!But then again...you'd be a fool for thinking that and even though we always disagree I have never thought you a fool...I find you very knowledgeable and generally courteous to people you like,you don't like me though so you generally pick a point to disagree with in some statement I make and then go on the attack.

Your choice...never wanted you as an enemy so guess I'll go do a copy and paste to prove my point.And its been longer than 3 days:(

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 22:14

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

I don't want automatic on my spam filtering. While my mail is still on the server, I can pick and choose which ones I want to read and delete/bounce. I love the freedom it gives me.

Most good servers do their own spam filterring now and they save your emails on their site so if something you were supposed to get is accidentally filterred,you can go in and get it.My friends were surprised in fact when I told them that the ebots sent to them were bounced back by spamcop...they never saw them and know our site doesn't spam~I would never spam our members!You no longer need to pay for services like spamcop and maybe thats why this happened...a little overzealous to prove their worth in the face of ISP's that offer spam filters every bit as good and for free!

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 22:20

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

You missed MY point.

If other ISPs were not using Spamcop's filters improperly, there wouldn't even be an issue.

it can be any site on that server and we are all blacklisted

Didn't I say they blacklist by the IP address? Yes. Anyone at your IP address who has been spamming enough to keep the IP address in the database will cause the entire IP address to be blocked. But unless people are using Spamcop's statistics and information, there would be nothing blocked anywhere. I can keep a list of merchants to boycott (just as an example), but unless people actually use my list and act on it, who cares? Same with spam lists.

bonni

Message edited on: 09/11/2004 22:25

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I don't want automatic on my spam filtering. While my mail is still on the server, I can pick and choose which ones I want to read and delete/bounce. That's exactly what I get with Spamcop, except that I can also report spam with one click. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Attached Link: http://forum.spamcop.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2602

Sites aren't required to use spamcops filters properly or improperly...like I said,many now have their own so why would they care for supporting them.The issue here isn't the effectiveness of spamcop for the consumer...the issue here is the blacklist and how they determine who goes on it.Did you know that spamcop was actually sold to someone else?So the people who made it so effective don't even own it anymore and could be the reason why my site got blacklisted...new owners tend to do things differently even if it violates the standards or ethics established by their predecessors. http://jhoward.fastmail.fm/spamcop.html Bet ya also didn't know that spamcop was on the verge of going under before the sale and has been accused of such abuses to site owners in the past with the same objections I've stated here. As for my argument with the people at spamcop and my typical aggressive behavior when I'm being screwed over...check the active link!!

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

That's swell, Bonni...but I also don't be wanting to pay a Monthly/Yearly service charge for this stuff either. :)

My point Eliza since you commented while I was away...its your choice to make,not theirs...they made this choice on their own and my site is blacklisted for everyone using spamcop whether they want the email or not

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Hey -- reading spam can be fun!

(But I like reading the dictionary, too.)

Just think of the satirical aspects of the situation.

And ask yourself: why does anyone believe this stuff?

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I understand your frustration, and I did read the thread you provided. I also see that they summed up what I've said here with this: his/her e-mail being blocked by another ISP that is using the SpamCop DNSbl in the tool-set of anti-spam traffic control It's some ISP doing this. It's not Spamcop doing it, other than they have the IP address in their database. Something at your IP address is generating enough spam to keep the IP address in the database, and some ISP is using that information to block mail. my site is blacklisted for everyone using spamcop whether they want the email or not Actual Spamcop users can very, very easily move "wanted" mail that gets incorrectly put in the spam trap into a list of "always pass" and it'll go right to their inbox from then on. People who have the misfortune to have ISPs who are using the blacklists without their knowledge or consent should change IPSs. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I also don't be wanting to pay a Monthly/Yearly service charge for this stuff either. I hear you. ;-) I run my own server, though, and there's a charge for incoming bandwidth. Having tons of spam sent to the server just for me to delete it would be needlessly expensive and time-consuming. Instead, my husband and I both have accounts at Spamcop and all our mail gets sent there, where it's filtered (think of the spam trap as just a folder that spam gets put in; it's super easy to go through and put the non-spam - when there is any - into some other folder, and also put it on the "always pass" list), spam can be reported immediately with a single click, and the webmail service allows me to read the mail and sort it on the server (or I could forward it somewhere else or download the filtered mail directly from their server). So for me, it makes more sense to just pay the $45 a year for both accounts and keep the junk off my actual server. However, we do NOT use any mail filtering/rejection on our server, because we haven't got a means for users to see what's been rejected, and the idea of legitimate mail being rejected is, in my personal opinion, irresponsible. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Xenophonz, I actually write poetry with spam. The rules are that I use the subject lines exactly as I received them, no alterations, one subject line per line of poetry. I've gotten some pretty amusing bits of poetry that way. :-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I've gotten some pretty amusing bits of poetry that way. :-) When life gives you spam, make something useful out of it. ;-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I use Thunderbird email software from mozilla.org - and it can be set to send all email not listed in your address book in the trash, or deleted. That's what I do, and am not bothered by spam at all. Thunderbird is a free download.

Well Eliza I do agree but just got an email from an ISP that somehow got our sites IP address from a list...not some service.Maybe they went on the sly and got their list from another server...I am also glad you understand my frustration so I'll set my sharp teeth aside since they aren't needed.The issue Eliza is that my site generates no spam at all...nothing and thats why I have been so angry about this.If my site sent out any unwanted emails,the members themselves have the option to stop it.We don't send out mailing trying to get new members to join and only recently started a newsletter,but this preceeded the newsletter by quite some while. They offer no specifics with which I could address this matter with my server host save to say "duh,spamcop said to talk to you about it" and sit here like a dullard as my host says we have no idea what they're talking about!Its not my site Eliza,its another site on the server apparently...but I need to know who or even if this is actually going on.It could also be a matter of defining spam...everyone defines it differently~so what if a site on my server is being reported for spam when by general consensus what they're doing is seen as spam by only one person?Like I told them,give me something to work with here...maybe my server can segregate the spammers to a server seperate from the rest of us!I mean,spamming isn't illegal right...neither is it illegal to put known spammers on a seperate server!! There are other options here that could be pursued but Eliza it really comes down to one issue...they represent consumers not site owners and if you read the other posts in their forums you would know that some of those consumers are quite rabid~they don't care if its legit or not,ban them all is the attitude you get in there.Heck on the original link that was posted on,the admin actually had to come in and tell them to calm down and defend someone who was trying to say he wasn't a spammer. But in the end it comes down to one thing Eliza,this doesn't affect me it affects the members of my site...they're the ones not getting the ebots and its a direct result of being on that list.I think if you read their comments it basically came down to one thing for them...we agree your site may be completely innocent and that there could be only one spammer out of hundreds on that server~but what would you prefer us to do~do nothing and allow our subscribers to be spammed or ban everyone on that server to protect them!!By that token,what if their "members" also recieve email from other legit sites on that server...might surprise you to know,but most people don't look in their spam filters unless they have a reason becasue the reason they have filters is so they don't have to look at spam. My server host already said they would consider segregating known spammers to a seperate server...but their records indicate that there was no advisory to them about the alleged spammer and they prefer not moving me to another server because they agree,it would be stupid to move me to another server not knowing if it to was balcklisted or would become blacklisted in the near future.Why is it that I have to come up with an answer like this...don't you pay spamcop to actually use their heads,its a simple answer!Telling me to talk with my server host with no information on hand is a dumb answer you must admit...they had no idea what the hell I was talking about and said they hadn't been contacted by spamcop on this matter.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Oh, one other thought on the matter of Spamcop. This is a quote from their own forums: SpamCop does not, nor can it, stop e-mail when an IP address goes on its blocklist. Only an admin of the mail service can do that (and SpamCop advises against it!) Once again, the problem is not with Spamcop's service (which is responsible for reporting millions upon millions of legitimate spam messages to their originating source IP administrator). The problem is that irresponsible or unaware system administrators, in their attempt to keep spam out of their system, implement the filters with no checks and balances, with no means of their users "opting out", without fully understanding what they're doing, etc. Quite frankly, irresponsible or incompetent system administrators are very, very high on my list of peeves in life. They make like difficult for everyone, from allowing spammers to use their machines to send the junk to begin with (through carelessness or ignorance) to implementing aggressive filters that allow no leeway or discretion on the part of the human beings who are supposed to be receiving the mail. Spamcop is a valuable tool in the battle against spam, and the spammers know it and hate them for it (they had to put their system behind a very secure series of firewalls because of the continual bombardment by spammers trying to shut the system down). They do produce a list of active spammers and it can be extremely frustrating, but in this case, I think it's another case of spammers making life difficult for everyone. Spammers are the absolute scum of the internet, as far as I'm concerned, and I've been on the net for more than ten years, I've worked at an ISP, and I run my own full-time server, so I've seen a lot of scum out there... ;-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Thunderbird is great but I can't use it lol,it crashes all the time so been waiting for a new build.I do use Firefox though...a far superior browser when compared to IE with none of the security issues and tabbed browsing~man am I impressed with Firefox and yeah~if you consider that spamming I'm spamming lol. If anything comes of this topic,maybe we can generate a lot of ideas superior to what spamcop offers and free of cost...Firefox blocks 100% of all pop ups,pop unders and so far haven't been hijacked once since installing it.If Thunderbird delivers as promised and as so many people say,then I believe its a better option as Mozilla has a sterling reputation for protecting the people that use its products.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Elizabyte...I think I'm having a heart attack...I fully agree!!My views I admit are born totally out of frustration and anger that I was branded a spammer...I still do believe,however,that if spamcop offers this list that they should make a better effort to verify that the claims are legitimate and find a better way than lumping everyone on a server together on a blacklist (by the way,they do call it a blacklist which in itself is a stupid move because you saw what I associated with that when I got angry). There are better answers Eliza...my ISP for instance not only verifys every url added to their blocklist,they also report false findings of abuse when they find it and say that spamcop is one of the sources they used to use before finding so many sites listed that either in their opinions weren't spammers or in fact were maligned because they don't consider three spam reports out of millions of emails sent to be spam...know what,they're right its not.Maybe you don't want to subscribe to Archaeology Magazine,but that doesn't make an offer direct from their official site spam because there were three complaints.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Should also note that my server also offers free Macafree anti virus scans on my email that act as a secondary defense to Norton...this plus a free spam filter and unlimited internet service for $19.95 a month with no additional fees or long distance charges.In fact my only complaint is their homepage is ugly lol...here's their addy http://newweb.sonet.net/ and want to know,would this be considerred spam;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

would this be considerred spam Actually...that would be a 'plug' ;) And I agree about the spammers, and I love my Firefox.

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Well,got another message from my server host stating they are actively trying to be removed from this blacklist but it could take up to 48 hours and could still result in us being blacklisted if the issue cannot be resolved as in order to resolve this they have to verify that someone on the server is spamming and to date they haven't recieved any information or reports from spamcop so that other than my reporting it...they knew nothing about it and I honestly believe them as they are one of the best server hosts online with a sterling reputation. And thanks jumpstartme2...just goes to show what I was saying,someone else might say it was spam if recieved in an email or a complaint were made that it was spam.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Spamcop's system, just for interest, does have built in checks and balances. For example, before an IP address gets added to the blacklist database, it has to be reported from multiple users. I'm not sure what the precise algorithm is, but I think I read somewhere that it's something like ten users within an hour. If an IP address has no further reports, it's removed from the database within three days. Spam can come from an IP address in many ways, including someone's insecure mailform (you'd be amazed how clueless people are as to securing something like that!), a compromised server (such as through a virus or intruder), and sometimes other means, usually some security hole somewhere. It may not necessarily be "a spammer", per se, but that "some spammer" managed to rape the mail server or otherwise force their way into the system. When spam is reported, and emailed report with the headers and the first several lines of the message is sent to the abuse department of the originating ISP. This serves several purposes, including alerting the system administrator of possible compromises to their system. Once an administrator replies to the Spamcop system (and sometimes to the reporting party), there's a note added to the database to that effect (i.e., problem has been dealt with) and the IP address is removed. I once reported my OWN server accidentally. I just slipped up and clicked the wrong thing and suddenly I'd reported my own IP address. Guess what? We weren't added to any black hole or blacklist as a result. On the other hand, our server was compromised a few months ago via a security hole in a script that we had running (by the time I learned about the hole and patched it, they'd already gotten in). They were fairly incompetent and managed to craash the mail daemon, but before that happened, they did spew out a fair number of spam messages (dunno how many; probably a few hundred). On that occasion, we WERE added to several blacklists, but once it was seen that no more spam was coming from our IP address, we were removed and it's all clear now. My point is that while no system is foolproof, Spamcop is a useful tool for controlling the flow of spam, when it's used responsibly. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Eliza,I served six months in jail in 1989 and lost everything I had because of a false accusation,I was further victimised because in order to win release I had to plead guilty to a third degree felony because the courts refused to hear my case even though all the evidence proved me innocent!!My mother recently died so this is not the time to start accusing me of something I didn't do...what it comes down to is that these people are ignorant.Want proof?They say they blacklist nobody right?Ok,on every pm that has been returned I get the following... Remote host said: XXXXXXXX Your server st03.startlogic.com [XXXXXXXXXX] is listed by the blacklist bl.spamcop.net. Please contact your Dial-Up/DSL/Network ISP Provider Now Eliza,does it or does it not say that the pm was rejected because we were on a blacklist provided by spamcop??They further asked me to post a pm in their forums but I already know that if you leave enough info on a posted pm that someone can use it against the person it details so I sent it to them by pm...the admin responded by saying that I had provided nothin that he had not found on his own yet all he found was the server IP address because he entered that in a site search...they asked for the bounced pm and the info it contained,these are only available within the server and on my computer~and they did not ask for my server IP address. Basically what gets me here Eliza is the I dunnos and the guesses...it makes these people sound unprofessional...then to say read the faq and make comments that contradict the faq is stupid.I sent them a copy of a pm I recieved from a server admin I wrote to in regards to this issue,they removed me from their blocked list and the guys at spamcop made it seem like I was lying because they thought the sentence structure was wrong somehow...maybe I should have just forwarded the pm to them but by this point they had already berated me for sending them no more info than what they had when they didn't ask for my ip address,they asked for one of the pm's! Basically I wanted simple answers and they didn't seem to know their ass from a hole in the ground.If there were any misunderstandings on my part,who is to blame for this?You cannot reply countless times that you do not blacklist anyone when the rejected pm's themselves hold you as the sole reason the pm was rejected.I can send you a full copy of the pm Eliza to see if you find any other possible answers if it suits you...but you read the replys in that link I sent you,did they or did they not repeatedly say they don't blacklist anyone?Of course there are other reasons and the server could be at fault...but this is not what they were saying save to read the faq and its not them doing it.Is this any way to handle public relations when someone comes to you with a valid complaint...then your own actions,ignorence and behavior fuel the anger of the person who came to you?? Its a simple matter...what do the rejected pm's say,they say they were rejected because of the spamcop blacklist which they insist they have no part in to the point of almost saying they don't collect the info themselves?Then to have one of your own regular informers reply saying "ohh,I send in sevral reports a day and I'm sure that other conscienscus members of the site do the same"...erm,wouldn't these be known sources (they claim they don't know where they come from basically) and where if anywhere does it say they validate these reports or do anything to protect sites against false reports or abuse?When I asked who made the report they basically played dumb...I dunno (could actually hear Scooby Doo saying that as I read it)!

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

I'm sorry that this issue has apparently set off emotional triggers for you. I have some emotional things of that sort, as well, and it's very difficult to think straight when you're seething because of that kind of thing. It's very clear to me that nothing anyone says will make any difference to you, however, so I'm done trying. I mostly posted in this thread so that other people who read it would be able to get at least something of a counter view. I wholly encourage people to visit the Spamcop site and read through their forums, in fact. It's pretty informative. If an IP address is sending spam and there are a sufficient number of complaints, it gets added to the database. If no more spam is sent, it gets deleted. If other ISPs use the blacklist irresponsibly, the mail from legitimate senders gets blocked irresponsibly. Unfortunately, this is all down to the fact that spammers are scum of the earth who use any means necessary to spew forth their filth. If it means breaking into someone else's server, they do it. If it means using someone's insecure mailform, they do it. They don't care who they hurt or how much of other people's time and energy and bandwidth they waste. If you want to get pissed off, get pissed off at the relentless and sleazy spam-senders who have taken over the net to the point that extreme measures are necessary. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

" I wonder if an addendum to Godwin's Law is in order... The longer a forum exists the probability of a daily comparison, involving Nazis or Hitler, approaches 1"" New version of the Godwin's law: Goldwin-Kawecki law: "The longer a forum exists the probability of a daily comparison, involving Nazis, Hitler or Bush, approaches 1" If you wish, you can eliminate Nazis or Hitler from above, Bush is enough.

Stupidity also evolves!

People who have the misfortune to have ISPs who are using the blacklists without their knowledge or consent should change IPSs.

Color me ignorant, but if it's "without their knowledge or consent" and they "should change their ISP" -- would you like to explain to me HOW I would KNOW to change my ISP if it's without my knowledge or consent to begin with???

I don't know you from Adam but you certain give a glowing report of Spamcop to the point this poster has the impression you are on their payroll. True or not -- doesn't matter that's my impression. As an American, I'm entitled to that freedom.

Point being.....looks whether real or preceived -- hurt just the same.

Still want you to tell me how I would realize to change my ISP if it's without my knowledge or consent. You make no sense with that comment.

would you like to explain to me HOW I would KNOW to change my ISP if it's without my knowledge or consent to begin with You could ask them. "What sort of email blacklisting or spam filtering do you employ?" And when someone says to you, "Hey! Your ISP bounced mail I sent you!" that might be a clue, too. :-) I'm not on their payroll. Rather the contrary. Perhaps you should read the rest of my comments in this thread to see precisely what my position actually is. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Yes, I would ask and realize that people will say anything to make a sale. You mean that you've never bought a product or service that failed to live up to your expectations after you bought it?

If I found out that my ISP was filtering and/or blocking mail I wanted to receive, I would change ISP. That was my only point with that comment. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

You now write......If I found out Yet, you initially wrote....without their knowledge or consent should change IPSs. First, I'm to change something when I'm not even aware of it -- but now you say...."If" you found out.....THEN you'd make a change. Yeah, if I attempt to apply logic to your thinking then I should have the foresight to realize there is a problem going on that I'm not aware of and then make a change once I found out...... You make so much sense.

I hereby apologize for whatever it was I said or did to upset you. It was in no way intentional. I don't even know you, so it certainly wasn't personal. If I miswrote all the hours ago that I wrote that, I also apologize. Possibly I was being distracted by the many other things that are going on around me as I write. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I'm just commenting on the fact that I fail to see the logic in your comments. Trust me, takes a lot to upset me and if you had -- you'd know it.

You speak of how nothing anyone can say will make a difference to me and yet you did not address what I said in regard to the fact that the bounce messages all say that the sole reason they were rejected was that I had been added to spamcops blacklist,yet they insist they have no blacklist and were not involved in my site being on a blacklist!!I argued with them and now I argue with you that they are the ones saying things that "contradict" their faq so why in the hell would it make any difference for anyone to go there and read up on them??? Also,you must remember that this company was on the verge of collapse not too long ago until they were bought out by people whose sole motivation is listed by them as this being a "money making opportunity"...I wonder why they were on the verge of collapse if their service is so valuable and the service they provide desired by consumers? It is also a fact that because spamcop is doing this and making money fighting spammers that the spammers are using their very existence now to argue that consumers who don't wish to recieve spam have a means to block them...thus,legislators are increasingly inclined to ignore this issue and look only at possible abuses. The area that I disagree with you Eliza isn't that you were providing the pro to my con...its that you did so to the point of totally ignoring valid points that I made against their service while I at least listened and agreed with you several times. The point here is this,regardless as to how it happened these people feel that they have the right to blacklist every site on a server because just one is a reported spammer...and even then they go by a number of complaints and do nothing to actually verify if the complaints themselves are valid.They admit they recieve millions of reports of spam yet it only takes ten complaints in an hour to get you on their list...not ten complaints every hour from what I read,just ten in one hour and then there are three days in which if "no" complaints are registered they'll take you off.And what if it is a virus or some other issue...how will I know if I'm not recieving rejected pm's and they don't inform me I'm on their list?? Further,you keep saying to change ISP's...my ISP isn't doing anything illegal here and they're a damn good host,so why should I change servers when that will cost me money??I hate spamming but you fail to address the fact that these people are not violating the law...thus,if they are not violating the law and these people are taking the law into their own hands its spamcop itself that is violating the law now isn't it!! You fight spamming Eliza by fighting to have new laws and regulations created to restrict or limit its usage by defining abuse...thats been one of the biggest flaws those fighting spam have had because they're angry and want it all stopped!You can't stop spam anymore than you can legally stop businesses from putting sales papers in your PO Box,its legal Eliza so you have to fight it legally and not take the law into your own hands or else you become as bad or worse than the problem itself! "It's very clear to me that nothing anyone says will make any difference to you, however, so I'm done trying." Umm...you mean you were trying to make me set aside my grievence and agree with you??I don't see anywhere where you agreed with me that their policys were wrong and that they made incompetent,inept decisions even though I provided evidence that they did just that.Its very clear that you will defend these people regardless of the abuses they commit and your answer basically is for honest people who have done no wrong to change ISP's that legally have done no wrong because an anti spam service says they have and has taken actions against them...actions which in turn are themselves illegal because these actions can cause irreperable damage to honest businesses. I found one case where an ISP was added to this blacklist without anyones knowledge,a business owner was in the middle of a very delicate deal that was worth almost half a million dollars...suddenly communication with the other party stopped,the deal fell through and only later did they find out that they had been added to spamcops blacklist with no warning or any bounced emails because the people they were working with didn't realise the messages were now being filterred. In my case and apparently the case you presented about what happened to you,spamcops actions are an inconvenience...but to some people it can be life threatening.Lets say that a hospital goes on that list Eliza...people could actually die because some valuable communications are blocked due to spamcops vigilante actions.Again...spamcop does not inform people who are added to their list that they will be added or have been added,they themselves admit that unless you get bounced emails there's no way for you to know~but of course,just because your emails are blocked that doesn't mean they will be returned either! And kaweki,you seem to think that comparing this action to fascism is either a joke or in error...but you don't even try to argue that its not.I genuinely win arguments with people because all people inherently take sides while I don't until one side or the other proves themselves to be at fault!This discussion with Eliza,I am in full agreement with her on spam but she cannot bring herself to agree with me about the problems inherent within what spamcop is doing...thus,she took a side and no matter how wrong she is or if there are better ways,she will stand by these people and actually make my case for me by blindly supporting them. Why do I compare spamcop to the nazi's??The nazi's came to power by taking the law into their own hands and trying to overthrow a legitimate government and its laws by force...for all the problems that afflicted the German people,their system of law was not at fault~it was the law makers.Most of the people that the nazi's persecuted were guilty of no wrong,but because a few of their number may have been as the nazi's portrayed~the German people gave them their blind support!When you have a service that may punish hundreds because of the actions of one whom they know nothing about...when they don't even verify that this one is guilty of anything other than the accusations of a few people~isn't that exactly what the nazi's did?? Basically spamcop can be summed up as follows in regards to what they do. #1~They collect data from complaints made about spamming without verifying the validity of those complaints. #2~They collect the IP addys of the alleged offenders and post them on a blacklist. #3~They then submit this blacklist to ISP administrators around the world and then deny that they are involved with the resulting actions~actions which would not take place if not for their list and the fact that many ISP admins wrongly trust that this list contains only "confirmed" spammers! I summed it up by saying "they don't burn the witches,they just spread the rumors and lies that cause others to do it on their behalf"!So maybe this issue isn't important...then your child dies because the hospital fighting to save their life was added to a spamcop blacklist and valuable minutes or hours are lost because no one knew!And yes people..."THIS CAN HAPPEN" because spamcop does not verify the IP addys are spammers nor do they have a system in place to determine who the people are on these lists to prevent such a thing from happening!!

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

You can't stop spam anymore than you can legally stop businesses from putting sales papers in your PO Box,its legal Eliza so you have to fight it legally and not take the law into your own hands or else you become as bad or worse than the problem itself! Stands up and applaudes Armorbeast. Good post, man! So, true, you don't like what's in the mail -- you throw it out. Or, you can restuff the usually prepaid envelope with junk and send it back to them. They have to pay the postage to get their own junk back. Doesn't get you off the list but it gets a point across. I treat junk email like junk regular mail -- either hit the delete button or hit the trash can. Same thing. Funny thing -- you look at the trashcan outside our mail area on Thursday -- it's OVER FLOWING with ads and flyers. When will the senders get the hint? Maybe when we as CONSUMERS say something.

If you wish, you can eliminate Nazis or Hitler from above, Bush is enough. Oh good God Kawecki....ya gonna say that Bush is now responsible for SPAM??!! Jesus Christ...find something better to do with your time, than hijacking threads that have NOTHING to do with political garbage....

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Lol...actually I don't like Bush or Kerry,but I wouldn't lump Bush in with the likes of Hitler by any means~he may be somewhat ignorant and accomplished nothing for us on domestic issues,but that isn't a party issue~those are character flaws;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Actually Litehouse some legislators did take the hint,in some states there are now restrictions on how much advertisement/junk mail can be delivered to people.This is in response to landfills overflowing and trying to recycle paper to help the environment...as well as people complaining about the junk mail lol.

The trick here is to think that way...find a way to legally force legislators to create new laws that prevent spam from being sent in the first place or at least restrict it.

One way would be to require all online advertisers to submit their IP addys to a legitimate service or government bureau...then a list of approved senders can be created and sent to ISP's to all nations participating in this.Thus,if these people are not an approved sender they're email will be auto deleted by your ISP because its not on their approved list.Of course there may be problems here as well,but it is a new direction to pursue...could also require server to give each site on their server a unique id so that only the guilty party could be targetted by anti spam services.

Its what I mean,targetting the innocent with the guilty is wrong and the current set up at spamcop does violate the law in this regard being that spam in the first place is not illegal.The objective again here is to pursue new possibilities to stay ahead of the spammers because I assure you,they are always looking for new ways to get around any effort to stop them.Spamcop has employed this system for some time now and any two year old could have figured out to do what they're doing as an answer...they have a bad system,they don't employ anyone with foresight to find new and better ways to combat spam~and they don't care who gets hurt by what they're doing!! And Eliza,if you hadn't noticed,I am pissed off at the spammers...I'm also pissed off about how spamcop conducts itself and you don't seem to care about how abusive that process is and you won't until a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement gets blacklisted and someone dies as a result.

Message edited on: 09/12/2004 13:44

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

you don't seem to care about how abusive that process is and you won't until a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement gets blacklisted and someone dies as a result. Armorbeast, speaking as someone who has directly worked on a transplant team for over 25 years....I would like to say that you are entirely correct that it won't be long if it hasn't happened already -- when our physicians say to a family member -- sorry, there is no tissue or organ available for your loved one and have it be a result of a computer/ISP/spam glitch. Eliza, what would answer be if you were on the receiving end of that comment and it was your loved one? Would it be the responsibility of the ISP, the spamcop or the user of the ISP? Think about it.

"you won't until a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement gets blacklisted and someone dies as a result" I for one would never deal with a hospital or other supposed health care provider who has to get business by sending advertisements to millions of people. IMO if you are in the condition of being close to death from whatever medical problem and you choose a hospital because they are the ones who sent you ads instead of doing your own research as to which one provided the kind of care you are looking for then I think you have more serious problems. ("you" being the general person who would do this and not an attack against any specific individual)

Attached Link: http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php

I used SpamArrest for awhile..but again I had to pay a fee to use it on their website and that got very old, very fast. I then switched to MailWasher at the recommendation of some friends, and haven't looked back since. The program sits on my desktop where I can access it anytime I wish and look to see whos sending me what. I also can delete any of these previews so it doesn't go into my inbox in OE, then process them according to my wishes. So seeing what I get before I get it straight from my desktop is a huge plus for me as well. :)

Message edited on: 09/12/2004 14:10

FYI -- a high percentage of hospitals and surgeons that I have worked for and still work with use an email network to see what organs and tissue are available for immediate transplants. It is a USA wide organization and enables us to better serve our patients. It is NOT ADVERTISTING. It is making other's aware of what tissue is available for transplant via email. If our server gets blacklisted as spam -- then we don't get emails regarding tissue/organs that are available. Wake up and smell the coffee -- we don't "advertise" -- we EMAIL AVAILABILITY. Totally different IMO.

I love being spammed by anti-spam ads -- advertising for anti-spam services.

"Don't you just hate spam? Well, for a small monthly fee, we can see to it that you will never have to worry about receiving any spam -- ever again!"

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Midnight...you obviously don't watch tv or look in your post office box much I assume??Hospitals advertise everywhere...even the local three room hospice will advertise and its only natural they will advertise online as well.Its not a matter of you even knowing they advertise,its a matter that because they do and complaints are made that they get blacklisted.It doesn't even need to be them...could be a virus on the server,could be that they share an ISP,could be any reason and the result is the same~they get added to a blacklist because no one verifys who is actually being added and no one informs you that you will be or have been added.Thus,through no action or fault they get blacklisted...then in a crucial moment when they rely heavily upon their computer to communicate with another person they find that this communication is a one way deal~why,because they were just added to the blacklist in the middle of their discussion. I had Mailwasher and if my ISP didn't offer such a service I would suggest getting that...also,the aforementioned Thunderbird is equally good in this regard from what I hear.But above all else,why pay someone to make these decisions for you?There are many "free" services now available that allow you to do this on your own and do it better...there is no blacklisting!!I mean get real,I live in the Bible Belt and I damn sure wouldn't want a bunch of Christian moralists adding sites to a blacklist because of their moral objectives...sites like this would be on that list for sure as rosity I know for a fact is on their sh**list!!Who has the right to decide what you view? If you want to pay spamcop for a service that you can do yourself for free and do it better,if you want them to blacklist sites that have done nothing wrong and if you want to run the risk that their actions could ruin legitimate businesses or even cost someone their life...by all means you're welcome to it!!But that does not mean the rest of us must suffer for your ignorence...you don't target the innocent with the guilty and then say "so what" when most of those targetted are innocent.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

XENOPHONZ...I love you man lol,yeah funny isn't it that the anti spammers use spam themselves~I wonder if spamcop will add themselves to their blacklist;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Thus,through no action or fault they get blacklisted...then in a crucial moment when they rely heavily upon their computer to communicate with another person they find that this communication is a one way deal~why,because they were just added to the blacklist in the middle of their discussion. Couldn't have said it better myself......

First of all I was responding to the comment: "a hospital that sends out its own online advertisement" and now you say: "Wake up and smell the coffee -- we don't "advertise" -- we EMAIL AVAILABILITY. " Maybe YOU should wake up and smell the coffee and maybe READ what people are replying to before you tell others to "wake up". In response to your comment, any hospital that is worth anything would never rely on something as unreliable as email to let people know of the availability of a perishable organ. They use faxed notices as well as telephone follow-ups and message boards where it's quite easy to see if you are blocked or not. For the main reason that e-mail itself has never been nor will it ever be reliable enough. Servers go down. It's a fact of life. They can't just send out an e-mail and hope everything is up along the way to the hospitals. As for "EMAIL AVAILABILITY", are you saying that they send this out and they assume that all doctors will have the time to waste sorting through hundreds of spam letters to try to find the one that may say if there is an organ available? A brilliant method of notification I must say.

A brilliant method of notification I must say Excuse me for not making my point more clear.....we learn of organ availability via... phone email fax pagers message boards as well as surgeons giving out their own personal numbers and ways of reaching them... The point I was trying to make is that we use email as a medium not as a point of "ADVERTISING" for organs. So much for that. Point being, Armorbeast is right -- the small guy and the large guy all get the wrong end of the stick when it comes to being blacklisted....to the anti spam program you are nothing more than a number.

Nope...I am saying that when you establish a direct line of communication its not email and if you have such a line of communication open you're not going to sit there dialing the phone and faxing them every minute on the minute when you have what you think is a direct line to them by computer...if the server goes down then you use phone or fax.The point being is that doctors use online communication heavily now including in the operating room where they may be talking to another doctor half way around the world or there's a vid cam there sending actual pictures of whats taking place. My point Midnight was you missed the point...because they send out online ads that spamcop recieves complaints about and blocks,suddenly anyone they might communicate with using that same server may find no communication coming through~the reason,if spamcop adds you to their blacklist and you use spamcop to "block" spam on your server,this legit direct contact between hospital and doctors is cut off.You don't even know this is the reason because spamcop does not #1 verify that the complaint is valid or #2 inform anyone they have been added.The only way you find out is if a rejected email is sent to you...but this doesn't always happen. In order to establish online communication,you use the server and if its the same server on the blacklist you get blocked...communication is severed.If there was some communication to let you know what happened the person on the other end would know to look in their spam filter maybe,find a filterred email and authorise this person to be allowed...problem there is that the reason you have a spam filter is so you don't have to look at these things and by the time you find out you were blacklisted it could be too late...even a few minutes could be critical. As for servers going down...I totally agree,it happens~but we're not talking servers going down...we're talking about being blacklisted without knowing and thats different because it was the willful action of someone else that caused this to happen.But as it is,you get added even by mistake and there are no more complaints...takes three days to be removed from the blacklist.If you do what they want and contact your server,it can still take up to 48 hours for your server to meet compliance but you have to find out that you're on their blacklist to know to do this! Spamcop is not a legal body nor do they have any legal right to require you to comply with their terms!For them it is a matter of coersion...do what we want or else and if no one is doing anything wrong,then spamcop itself has become even worse than the spammers they fight.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Armor, spamcop is under constant attack by spammers and non-spammers for black-holing them without due process. But in an atmosphere of weak international accords and lax government enforcement, there is no due process of law. I have a feeling they will eventually delist you, but you need to be patient, and take into consideration the vicious and vile attacks that real spammers must subject them to, on a minute-by-minute basis. When they're under that kind of stress, they tend to develop an iron exoskeleton, and they don't take anything at face value.

mateo_sancarlos, in your opinion, do you think Spamcop is legit with the way it does business? Do you see this as more of an "international" problem rather than just our "local" (i.e. USA) government not having good enough laws to go after the "bad guys" that do this?

I totally agree...these people are under attack from everyone but its not the iron exoskeleton that I have a problem with,its the yellow belly underneath;P

The issue here mateo basically comes down to the incompetence I found when I got there and the feeling that the reason they are doing things this way is also borne from incompetence.

My point about being blacklisted by them and having them outright deny that they blacklist anyone...when every rejected ebot I got back clearly stated that the only reason it was rejected was because we had been blacklisted by spamcop.

They tell you to read the faq and their own comments contradict the faq...then when you ask specific questions that are important they either say "I dunno","I guess","read the faq" or simply try to blame the server.

My main problem here is that spam isn't illegal nor has it been defined.A friend of mine sent me links to sites speaking of past efforts to address spam legally and in almost every case the reason it failed was that the anti spammers basically defined any unwanted email as spam and did like spamcop by attacking legitimate businesses as well as spammers.

First lets define spam...is it any unwanted email?Is it any unwanted solicitation?No,spam is when you have 10,000 people all mailing out the same emails so you get the same email from numerous senders.If you don't like the email you get~ tough...doesn't make it spam any more than that sales paper for Wal Mart in your po box.It becomes spam when people not even associated with ownership or marketting of the enterprise are paid to distribute email promoting the sale of such items...thats not the way it works in the U.S. postal system and its not the way it should be allowed on the internet!

Now we have defined what spam is...now we find answers.The first step is to establish a legitimate registry of enterprises that are sending email for their enterprise and their enterprise only~the list is sent out to ISP's and updated daily so that if you're not on it,you're blocked.There is no legal reason why this could not be pursued and if anyone violates this simple requirement,an agency like spamcop would be fully within their right to report them to the server and give the server the opportunity to remove the offender from their server...furthermore,the names and personal information supplied by the offender would be turned over to the national registry to legitimise blacklisting this person.There would be checks and balances in which the accused could prove innocence so there's no lynch mob...and any site like spamcop that abuses the rights they have been given by not verifying that a violation occurred would be shut down.

I realise spamming is an international problem...however,almost everyone I have spoken to has reported that 90 to 99% of all spam in their email comes from the U.S..What I have expressed here is not a perfect answer I know...but spamcop reveals just how flawed the current efforts to fight spam are...we literally have law abiding citizens taking the law into their own hands to address a problem that has been poorly defined by them,that punishes the innocent with the "guilty" and that doesn't even verify that the claims are legitimate~an accusation or complaint is not proof,even ten complaints in an hour when 10 million emails were sent is not proof,and is certainly not enough proof to blacklist anyone.

I realise my posts on this subject are a bit long...the reason is called passion,I truly want to see something effective done to fight spamming legally and I want something done to either legitimise what services like spamcop are doing or to at least recognise the abuses they commit without the legal authority to do so!Its people with passion who do more than complain...we get things done because issues like this have meaning.So what say we quit squabbling...I don't see many here other than Eliza who agree with spamcops actions~the question now is,what do we do about spam~what action that falls within a "legal" platform that might be presented to legislators?

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

There is no internationally accepted protocol (of which I am aware) to deal with spammers, little or no enforcement by any government, sporadic enforcement by ISPs, all of which lead to an environment in which anybody can do anything they want. Spamcop is famous for blackholing people who later claim innocence, and for all I know these people have legitimate grievances. In that sense spamcop is extra-legal, so they're not exactly legit, but any attempt to quash them would be illegal AFAIK. I don't know how many spammers try to sue spamcop for damages, but in doing so they expose themselves to later enforcement in criminal cases. They also expose themselves to a civil proceeding in which the standards for proving they're spammers are not strict or even well-defined, and the concept of reasonable doubt is not important, meaning it's probably impossible to prove they're NOT spammers, since spamcop defines that, not them. So in Armor's case, if only one user in that block of IP addresses spammed (according to usenet or spamcop guidelines) within some given period, then the judge in a civil case would decide for spamcop, and might be required to forward all information to whatever D.A. handled that jurisdiction. Here is one tip to html coders doing ebots, to avoid being picked up on bayesian spam filters. Check out the scores you get for html in messages, for all caps, for images (bugs), for invalid return address, for dozens of other things. If you can keep all that crap out of your ebot, it's not gonna be picked up as spam in most cases, and will be passed thru to your users. I get stuff that's not spam, but is scored pretty high on Spam Assassin, due to stupid html coders at the other end, so I have to set my Spam Assassin higher than I'd like. Which is far easier than trying to pummel some bleeding-edge html coder into submission ;-)

Actually they admitted I was not even at fault...but neither did they confirm that anyone had committed a wrong.Spamcop has indeed been sued many times and in almost every case it was a spammer who thought that because the actions of spamcop were not backed by law that they could beat them in court...wrong,I never said they could beat them in court~I just said that spam wasn't illegal to my knowledge and spamcops actions were.You can argue that their actions are lawful only in the context for which they currently exist...but like taking down mobsters using the IRS,there are other laws in the U.S. which it can be proven that they have violated~you just have to find the right ones:P

However,if they wrongly blacklist a hospital that depends on its online communication and vid links...if someone dies because no one can figure out whats wrong with the online server they depend on,then spamcop can be held accountable in a court of law for criminal actions.The reason is that blocking a spammer whose actions aren't illegal,but not yet proven lawful either,is a bit different...it does not bring other forms of law into play.If your actions contribute to the "wrongful death" of someone else,you can either be found guilty or the case could drag on so long that you go bankrupt from legal fees and the bad rep you receive as a result.

You don't have to beat spamcop in court to defeat them...you just have to drag out a case in the courts until the cost becomes too great for them to withstand.If they blacklist someone in a multi million dollar corporation and a deal goes sour as a result...the same thing rings true.Right now spamcop primarily has been addressing individuals...and in that people whom most of us aren't very sympathetic towards.But accidentally catch a hospital or a multi million dollar corporation in their sights,cause a lot of damage as a result...and spamcop is no more!

Message edited on: 09/12/2004 23:53

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

I know that you don't want to hear this Armorbeast, but have you considered a dedicated server ? It would solve a lot of your issues. --Rebekah--

Of course by admitting I was not at fault there was also a lot of I dunnos and such lol...I really am not against the principle behind spamcop,I am against the fact that they don't verify and they don't inform those suspected of wrong doing.If its a mistake so what...if there is a problem that causes my server to go on a list and I could be labelled a spammer as a result,my argument all along is let me know beforehand and the hell you see me raising here will be raised with the server instead!! I can do far more good forcing my server to fix a problem if I know there is a problem that needs fixed...but the policies used by spamcop don't even offer me a chance.If I didn't get those bounced ebots I never would have known why my members were complaining that they weren't recieving their ebots all of a sudden.If their goal is to stop spam,then they need to start using their heads and keep up with the spammers who I guarantee are using theirs to try to get around our filters and blocked senders lists. We don't need spamcop as it is...we need something better that doesn't attack everyone regardless of guilt.If what they are doing isn't illegal and they can continue...then why can't we encourage someone else to compete with them by actually trying to verify complaints,to inform sites on servers of possible actions~but more than anything,to find new ways of dealing with spam because other than being insulted at being labelled a spammer~I know that I could also get around their blacklist without even half trying if I were a spammer;P Spamcop isn't even the best option you have...use Thunderbird by Mozilla or Mailwasher,find an ISP with their own filter...there are other options I can't think of atm proven "more" effective than spamcop and they are all "totally free" and in the end I guess thats the best way to slap spamcop in the face...point out they are no more effective than the free options and they do more damage to legitimate enterprises;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Forum: Community Center

Subject: Anti spamming~A New Age Of Fascist Thinking