The first step: You like a image!
The second step: You like it so much, that you will comment it!
The third step: You see, with "YOUR EYES", something to make better.
The fourth step: Ask you, if the artist has intended this, what you will criticise, or if this is a technical deficiency.
The fifth step: (if the last is pretended accurate) - make a neutral comment and write a IM to the artist, about your criticism and motivation.

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Possible opinion and criticism is very much individuel and complicated.
Criticism, constructive criticism, has to refer only to the engineering of a program, not the idea of a picture, if present or discernible.
To write a IM, is for sensitive artists less a way to compromise them!

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And a little notice too: What is a "wip"??? For what is a "wip"??? If a "artist" need a lot of opinions to make a final work, ..., so it is no more his own work, but only the work of many opinions...

Who said I like it ???? :P Seriously, this forum has been officialy immunized (by AgentSmith himself) against silly things which are happening in galleries, we are doing some work on Bryce here, that is what this forum is all about, and galleries are much less importent theme then Bryce itself, so if silly things from galleries are bothering you, sir, you should really talk to Renderosity moderators about your issue, via instant messaging, or email, cuz this is seriously OT ! :) Have a nice day !!! :)

I see nothing wrong with constructive critique or posting a WIP. To deny other people's opinions, even if you disagree with them most of the time, is like saying every image you make is a masterpiece and shouldn't be questioned. In that case, DISABLE comments.

Hmmm...Is my english so bad, to tell, what it's my intention for this article? ...

Yeah, I agree with dougocd - anyone who doesn't want constructive criticism can disable comments. WIPs are very useful, lots of people here aren't very experienced with Bryce, and get help and suggestions by posting WIP.

If my previous post sounded disturbing, fear not (i apologize for that matter), cuz my point was that your post was (and still is) way off topic, now, which Bryce tip or expirience you would like to share with us today ??? :) Your english is fine, but, like I already said, your post it's 100% related to what YOU FEEL about galleries and comments, hope that cleared out more what I had in mind, sorry for misunderstanding and thanks for your time !!! :)

what are WIP's?? the opinion given to people who post wip's are generaly ALWAYS geared twords technical improvments(lighting,Mats,ect).I dont rememeber anyone ever saying to "change" the pic because its idea was wrong.I dont get why this was posted....

I eat babies.

Well in my opinion and one that is new to bryce. I joined this forum so i could get help on things to do with bryce and if that means me posting a WIP to get Constructive criticism on it then so be it. Even if the Constructive criticism comes from 100 people that post on this forum, their ideas always help us new users of bryce. To me their help doesn't mean that the WIP is no longer mine alone but that with their help i was able to create a better image in the end.

To all those that have been able to aide me in the WIPs i have started and i'm sorry to say i have stuffed up due to my mis-understanding of what you have advised me to do with it or not knowing my way around bryce to well, i will always be greatful for the help you give me.

To those who cannot handle Constructive criticism on your WIPs then don't post them to get any advice from those on this forum that know or have been using Bryce for sometime now.

Thank you all again for your advice and help :)
LunarTick

Message edited on: 10/11/2004 03:29

When people post a WIP (Work In Progress) and they ask specifically for comments and critiques it then is a productive endeavor. Some artists may be experiencing some difficulties either technical or artistic (esthetics) with their creations and ask for solutions when posting a WIP. Some artists gauge their creations by posting a WIP and seeing how much c&c it gets. Some artists just post a WIP to show their colleagues their newest projects, what their up to and neither ask or need c&c. No one is forced to use these comments and critical recommendations. If a critique has true merit to it then an artist should consider it and its source. Unfortunately some critiques and comments are spawned from envy and malice and are not meant to be helpful but used to be spiteful, demeaning and debasing. Some are cleverly disguised and embellished to seem helpful. If one suspects foul, then the next best thing to do is check out that critics gallery and see the type of work they produce to see if they have substance or not. Typically, if the critic has no gallery or offers no link to their work and are unknown, little or no leverage could be implied to their criticism. But if you ask for c&c then you must grow a thick skin and be prepared to accept the consequences. Being prepared doesnt mean you hide in your shell while people pelt you with inappropriate verbiage. If something seems off-handed, say so. Often, matters can be remedied through further dialog. Theres a difference between critique and comments. Whereas critique is an analysis, an evaluation or an appraisal, a comment is a remark, an observation, a statement. Some people just dont know the difference and use the two interchangeably. If you are referring to the Bryce Forum gallery you will see that they call for helpful comments not critiques, theres a reason for that. So people who insist on posting critiques there are to be watched and dealt with accordingly. Overall, constructive criticism and comments can be very helpful to all artists, experienced or not when offered in that light.

I understand exactly what Whanfried is saying. I must say that when I posted one of my first pictures here, it was really, really bad (i'm sure I'm not much past the bad part yet, but at least I'm more confident) and some troll came and posted that it was the "worst render evah!!" Well I checked his gallery and this troll had never created any renders that I could see. But still to some degree he discouraged me.
Wahnfried sent me a personal IM and gave me some constructive criticism and also some hope for my future.
I also understand what he means about the WIP's because I also thought EXACTLY the same thing when I posted one of mine for some lighting help here. I thought, hmmm well if I get help like that on it, won't it take away the fact that I created it, and make it a joint effort and something to be less proud of?
BUT I also understand that I have a LOT of learning to do and if I can get technical help now, then in the future I will be that much better on the images I do create solo.
AND it's true, its not the technical aspect of Bryce that is artistic, it's the vision you have!
Anyway, Wahnfried is one of my favorite artists here, his work is incredible and immaculate and he's welcome to critique any of my work at any time, as are most of you here. What I don't appreciate is someone coming on that has never had the guts to post any pictures and rip apart mine.

Message edited on: 10/11/2004 07:02

I tend to like the IM approach for when I have a question or suggestion on a work. If it is posted as a wip then I will put the comments in the comments. Just because one posts a wip and requests suggestions does not make the final work any less the artists. It is always up to the artist to evaluate such feedback (be it technical or aesthetique) and shape the work in his or her own fashion.

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

Criticism and Critiques have helped me quite a bit over time. Consider the source of comments. If a experienced artist comments that this or that could be done to an image, review the reponse and act on your own gut instinct. Many have commented on my stuff. Doesn't mean I'm going to change it, just gives me more ideas to work with. Art comes from within YOU. Not the viewer. Do what you want. If comments bother you, then the art is not the issue. Personal insecurity and lack of confidence is the issue.

Mark S. Popham
http://www.markostimpy.com
markostimpy@gmail.com

Getting advice from other Bryce users on a WIP does not make the image any less yours. I have posted WIPs for diffent reasons: "This is my idea for the Challenge." Different people come up with similar ideas sometimes, this is a way of declaring intentions so more than one person don't waste time on a similar idea, and can move on. "I'm stuck." This is a good idea, but I can't figure what to do next. "How do I..." I have a specific thing that is wrong here, how do i fix it? "Here's what I'm working on, I've spent quite a lot of time on it, and I'm proud of how it's going so far; just want to share it with friends." How do you like it so far? There are others. None of these make the final image belong to someone else. Similarly, if you use a free object you did not make in a render, does it make the image any less yours? Some would argue that it does. I would say it does not. Finally, I don't think that comments/criticism in the galleries is Off Topic at all. But it has received a lot coverage here in the past. Try searching the Forum with the keyword "comments" or "criticism", and check out some of those threads. John

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

I'm pretty sure most people know the difference between honest critique and pure vitriol! When someone posts a nasty comment, you can pretty much tell it was meant to be nasty. Too bad Renderosity doesn't give us the option of gagging comments from nasty foul people who don't know how to give a good honest critique or the ability to delete comments like that from our images.

SteveJax: If the comment is really off-base, then you do have an ability to have it deleted, especially if it violates the TOS. Just IM AgentSmith or clay, "the Bryce Police", and they'll check it out for you. They don't support trolls. :^)

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

WIP means Work in Progress !?!? Geez,.....I thought it meant(in my case) Woefully Inadequate Picture,....boy, am I a moron or what. And no, I don't take anything seriously.

"Any club that would have me as a member is probably not worth joining" -Groucho Marx

Nice to hear from you DC, Without constrictive critisism, how can one excel at what they do? I have come to depend on the Bryce Forum for that critisism and I have learned a great deal. If an artist doesn't can't handle critism, then he or she should disable the Comment option, don't you think? Anyway, congratulations on your new adventure with Maya! Cheers, Mark

"To write a IM, is for sensitive artists less a way to compromise them!" To paraphrase an American publicist: "When you create something and present it to the public, you find yourself on a windswept plain with your pants down." Primadonna behaviour usually hurts your artistic development. (generic you, ihr as opposed to du/Sie) Take a look at the reviews of the latest book by Anne Rice on amazon, where she got offended by the harsh reviews and said that "she worked so hard on the book to let an editor meddle with it." Yeah, right. All of us benefit from an editor. Of course, some much less than the others, but still... In the same way, all of us benefit from criticism. And I'm not counting comments like "worst render evah" as criticism.

-- erlik

hiya Wahnfried! You are one of my favorite artists here, and I do agree with you in points 1-4. However, I will post suggestions when I see something that "I" think that the artist could do better - technically that is. My comments more often than not will result in an IM exchange, but that is a totally different matter all together! I really appreciate peoples helpful comments to my gallery pictures, and even more so I appreciate helpful comments ot others artwork. That can both enlighten me in techniques, and be inspirational. But even more I appreciate COMMENTS! lol they're rather scarce in my gallery. As for posting WIPs, I had some really tough times in the first challenges here. I was a BRYCE newbie, and my images showed my lack in thechniques! :) The list of helpful things I could do to improve my images almost overwhelmed me! lol But the conclusion... I did learn :) I still have lots to pick up.. Bryce is a complicated program, I think. A week or so ago, I posted a portret rendered in Poser in my gallery. Poser is so much more forgiving than Bryce, and it turned out pretty OK, I think. But what it lead to was a really cool IM exchange with a Bryce newbie. So now I'm trying to make the portret in Bryce... (and I'm pulling my hair out. lol). When it is done, I will post it in my gallery, cross my fingers and hope that somebody will tell me what I can do to improve lights, texture and camera angle. :) hugs Britt

I tottaly agree with markostimpy on this, way to go sir ! :)

Here's what i think...I think that artists reserve the right to ask for advice or critique from other artists at their leisure. The beauty of the internet these days is that we have the freedom to communicate with artists who use our very same medium, and to share ideas, techniques, and most of all, our artwork. I also think that viewers reserve the right to make comments about the art. I don't think that these comments should be vulgar, or insensitive, but i think that if you don't like a piece you have the RIGHT to say something about it. The Museum doesn't have bouncers standing around making sure you don't have a negative opinion about a work, so why should we? Grow up.

Do you think that the master artists made every painting without some form of input from other people? Some of them did, yes, and the master Bryce users (aka Rochr) also make amazing artwork without a lot of input from outside sources.

I, for one, not being very good with Bryce technically and not being the most artistically brilliant person, like to gather the opinions and critiques that others have about the piece i'm currently working, thus helping me to improve what i'm doing to create a much better overall composition.

If none of these methods of improvement existed, we'd have a whole lotta galleries including not much more than spheres over water.

Message edited on: 10/11/2004 15:56

How many times have you had tomatoes tossed at you in public? Yeah I know AS is here to pull comments, but truely, if the moderators had to be called everytime someone got nasty around here they'd never have time to create their own art. That's why a delete comment feature would be so much nicer to have. At least I think it would be nicer, but as a person who tends to not comment at all on anothers work if I don't like it I truely don't understand the spiteful people who can't just walk away without hitting the snide comment button.

@ Stefano - Nice to see you back buddy! Here are my 2 pennies: WIPs - are great tools for learning for artists like us who are learning; and aren't we all learning? I personally don't post WIPs but I do solicit critique via email to certain members of this community. Honest constructive criticism is one of the most valuable learning tool available in this community. If you want IMs only simply disable "allow comments" and ask for IMs. If you check "allow comments" both praise and critiques WILL inevitably be included, that's just the way it is. It hurts sometimes especially when you worked so hard on something or waited so long for a render but I think of it as necessary pain. This is true for other arts I have taken (martial arts and music), nobody's born a skilled or trained. Nasty/destructive/demeaning/TOS violating comments - theyr'e just a B1+cH! Unfortunately the best thing we can do right now is complain to AS or one of the mods. Complaining to AS ain't that bad, besides he's used to it ;-) Also, I wish people who give crticism have their own gallery (as a sign of good faith) also it helps the receiver of the criticism to judge whether or not to listen or ignore the criticism. Personally I'm more likely to pay attention to critiques from people I know, or people who

"WIP" (Work In Progress)... When you are/were at school in the art classes (assuming you were:-]), you had a teacher who came round and pointed out what you were doing wrong and why and how to improve it. The teacher also gave you information on how to use the materials and equipment at your disposal. That didn't make your achievments any the less: YOU had to come up with the idea; YOU had to put that idea into effect; YOU had to learn to master the tools. Learning is a never-ending process. If you can't work out how to achieve the effect you want there's no disgrace in asking if anyone else knows how to do it, and WIPs are probably the most effective way of asking for that advice. That said, I'm a very slow learner and I only post WIPs here (and occasionally in the Poser forum if it's relevant), not in the gallery. To my mind, the Gallery is for finished pieces. The forums (fora? fori? - my latin is terrible:-]) are where WIPs should be posted. A bit OT: I also think that the Poser forum should be subdivided into more categories, including a Poser Newbies forum, which could include tutes and WIPs etc, ('cos FAQ doesn't really help that much except for absolute tyros), the Poser Products forum, where people can advertise their products and probably a couple more.. :-). That way, maybe the Poser forum could start becoming less frenetic (like the Bryce forum is). Oh, well. Wishful thinking probably. And I wandered way off my original train of thought.... Cheers, Diolma

Hmmm...WOW! Thank you for your messages and opinions! I accept them all! I'm delighted a lot about so much interest and resonance! And thank you too, for your inspirations! Best regards! Th.

Well...as far as the tomatoes go...there was that one crazy night in Alabama... But that's another story. No, i haven't had something as drastic as tomatos, but i have been publicly ridiculed, i've gotten bad reviews on things, i've gotten not-so-favorable reports about my swimming in the paper when i had a bad meet. Did i run and call God to erase these events from existance? No, i didn't. I dealt with it, I tried to improve, and often i just didn't CARE what everyone else thought. If i was happy with my work and someone outright said "That's awful. I hate it." Yeah, i'd probably be a little upset, and I might argue with them for a little while. But in the end, that's not what's important. What IS important is that you're satisfied and you are HAPPY with the work you have done, and you're proud of your art. If a few disparaging comments here and there can take that away from you, then obviously your art isn't "good" enough for YOURSELF. Alexander Graham Bell didn't quit his development of the Telephone when people told him he was crazy, that it couldn't work. Why? Because HE knew he was right, and he was proud of his work. Thanks to him, we can now have this very discussion.

Comments on works of art are always subjective. Take them with a grain of salt. In my experience if you get 1 comment that seems immature it probably is based solely on ignorance. Look at that persons gallery that left the comment, and decide from there wether it's worth giving it a thought. If that person doesn't have anything in thier gallery it's probably because it's not worth looking at. If you get the comment a few times then it's probably sound advice. In the end the only thing that matters is how you feel about the piece. Particularly if the comments are unsolicited. On the subject of wip's. I for one use the forums for wip's all the time. Not here neccesarily, but on other galleries. It's quite useful especially when you have a deadline on a commission piece. As far as wether using the wip as a tool takes away from it being called your own, I say absolutely not. The WIP's is a collaboration of advice given by other artists who share thier vision based on their own experience. It's up to to the individual to shape that vision into a reality, therefore making it your own. Look at it this way without teachers there would be no students...

When someone leaves a spiteful remark under a gallery image it reflects more on their own lives than on the image. How sad must you be, to want to hurt someone by being destructive? Most people know the difference between being constructive and being downright nasty.