I wish I would've archived my IM about this... because it's the comment I would make here :> As an artist I do want comments. Honest comments. I sort of decided when posting my stuff a few days ago that I am not going to allow members to "rank" me because I don't think it is neccessary. When I love something, I often just write that I love it or maybe one thing I love about it, but I have been prone to adding images to my favs list without ever commenting on them. (naughty cara!) Often when I do have suggestions re: improvement I will not give something a ranking at all when the image hasn't had many viewings (sometimes I will rank but often I don't) because I don't want my opinions to influence anyone else's. After all, I am making my comments for the benefit of the artist. Lately I've seen a lot of emotional comments made in a certain gallery I browse (though it is not my medium to post in) and I think that ppl are getting confused about what constructive criticism IS and some ppl are taking offense on the behalf of others, who may or may not actually be offended, and things are getting a lil crazy. I've seen many artists discussing their future on this site with their posts and I think it would be a shame if this site, that is so new to me, started losing artists in droves. What I think is that those in charge of the site address the situation by making some changes in the site itself and I did email my suggestions to the site admins. As for some of the conflicts, well, we're all human (so far as I know ;>) and as humans and as artists in whatever field calls to us, we can be emotional so drama is bound to occur now and again but, if the site were tweaked a bit, perhaps the drama would be lessened. Just my very lengthy 2 cents worth. cara

They want support and encouragement. Even the most diplomatic constructive criticism runs the risk of hurting their feelings. Full-scale honesty is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. The hope is that if you encourage all of them, maybe 3 to 5% will go on to develop as skilled and talented artists.

i always say what i like first, then nicely say what could use improvement. if im afraid of hurting someones feelings, then i send it in a private message. on the other hand, art that i just dont like, i dont comment on or rate. its not my style, so i really dont have anything to say about it. heres my method lol once a night or so...i browse the gallerys. i dont look for names i know but i do stop and open up thumbnails that catch my eye. if i like i comment, if not, i drive on. if i can offer helpful advice to make the image better no matter what style it might be i offer it. and i hate it when people say they dont post for comments or for other people. every artist likes to know their work is appreciated and enjoyed. if they didnt want comments or was making for themselves, they wouldnt put it on the world wide web or would,like lots of artists, turn off comments and rankings. where mateo said "They want support and encouragement. Even the most diplomatic constructive criticism runs the risk of hurting their feelings. Full-scale honesty is a guaranteed recipe for disaster. The hope is that if you encourage all of them, maybe 3 to 5% will go on to develop as skilled and talented artists." i think that is way off. if we cant be honest here, where we come to learn, develop and grow as artists, why have a site like this? Heres my motto. be honest. if they dont like it, then they are not ready to become a professional artists (because pro artists get constructive criticisms all the time) and or should turn their comments and rankings off. thats like saying follow the crowd and lets hope something good comes of it. also..remember the fine line between opinons and critisim. you should only post helpful comments to make the image better...not oh i dont like her outfit, or her hair should be blonde or i dont like that you put two girls in the picture. thats opinion and subject to the artists concepts and ideas. but if the lighting is off, or a boob is poking through, or something along those lines i dont think anyone should pad their egos as they will NEVER get better that way. its like telling a bad cook omg this is so tasty! your gaurenteed to be eatting crappy tasting food untill you come forward with the truth, and help them improve. oh one last thing..... soooo damn tired of seeing the dont say anything dont make waves, blah blah blah posts. change can only happen when we make it happen...for all those who are willing to suck it up so that they dont upset people seem more worried about making friends then making and viewing top notch art.

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And ditto on the private messaging too... I have begun to do that a bit too :> cara

Please - PLEASE. Tell me what I'm doing wrong, if I'm doing something wrong. I do this for fun, but I would like to do it for a living eventually. So constructive criticisms are welcome. RC

I think the general rule is that you can offer constructive criticism in all the galleries except the Poser gallery.

If they don't ask you directly- don't give it. So many here are not makeing art but useing the software for self therapy!

I think constructive criticism done in a polite way is the most important thing we can give each other. How will we ever learn little tips and tricks, see things from anothers eyes unless we are open-minded. If comments are just to stoke the egos of the poster, maybe then there will be hard feelings. Maybe they should have their own sites so that adoring fans will flock to them and stroke their egos all they need. I havent been here long so I am careful about suggestions I may make due to lack of experience on the technical issues. On one of my first images I got a message from someone telling me how to direct the eyes so they arent staring blankly and I was so thrilled!!! I didnt have a clue how to do that! I see images from people that have been here for ages with tons of postings with their people staring blankly at nothing and I wonder how they would take it if that suggestion was made to them? I have no problem when I see an image I really like to say how beautiful it is, after all, with all the work and effort put in, it deserves it. But to do it by who's name is on the image is just wrong. How sad that we cant find a happy center point where we can kindly help each other out. If you do your art just for yourself and you dont care what people say, or dont think comments are important, then turn them off or keep your pictures in your own little puter and look at them all you want. But I am here to learn, be inspired, and communicate with others traveling the same path. And, there are some here, that want to make a living with their art and for them, honest opinions are crucial and I am sure they are trusting the memebers to be honest with them. I agree with above that saying things like, I dont like that color hair, well thats personal and really not necessary, if it was your picture then you could make the hair any color you want. But, honest things like, the hair is sticking straight into her skin,or the pose is great but she really isnt sitting on the wall, try moving her back, well that is something that needs correcting. Pointing this out, little flaws and details will help the artist to be more aware of the little details, and not just throw things together for the sake of getting something up to post. I for one am looking for the honest opinions and if you honestly like it, well say that too, thats cool by me :) LOL nuff of me carrying on !

also..remember the fine line between opinons and critisim. you should only post helpful comments to make the image better...not oh i dont like her outfit, or her hair should be blonde or i dont like that you put two girls in the picture. thats opinion and subject to the artists concepts and ideas. but if the lighting is off, or a boob is poking through, or something along those lines i dont think anyone should pad their egos as they will NEVER get better that way. its like telling a bad cook omg this is so tasty! your gaurenteed to be eatting crappy tasting food untill you come forward with the truth, and help them improve. I certainly agree with that and I wish I could see more of it, since it would surely help me improve my images. The sad part is that a lot of ppl don't seem to know the difference between opinions and helpful comments. I've gotten some like "that looks like a pan pizza" when it was clearly a firepit, how does that help improve the image? I guess a lot of ppl don't want to put the effort into thinking of something constructive to say and that's why most are the "Great image" and "nicely done!" type

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Not everybody knows how to fix everything, I'm limited by what I know how to do myself. For instance, I wouldn't know how to make something look like fire, rather than pan pizza, so I can understand telling the artist that something doesn't look quite right and describing how so. I give all types of comments, and some, I admit, could have been more gentle. Obvious things do tend to irritate me, like someone's arm completely poking through their breast, because I can't figure how that could have been missed. Just seems careless rather than from inexperience. Sometimes I say "that's excellent" because the overall impression to me is that it looks great, I admit I don't notice every flaw. And if I think that critisizing something, no matter how nicely, will be percieved as a personal attack, I tend to avoid it all together. So there ya go. If my comments are enabled, say what you wish. Oh, except for something like "how did you get so many nice comments on this piece of crap?" LOL cause even I have limits.

some of my closest friends here I made when they found fault with my work :o) I don't have a problem with constructive criticism unless the person finds fault with every image I do and that has happened and really gets to you after a while. I do find it hard to offer helpful advise because i lack the confidence in my suggestions unless I know the artist well. I left one once and though the artist appreciated it everyone else attacked me to best to keep my mouth shut at times and just point out the parts that I do like and there is always something I do

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Pee on it and walk away

This topic seems to be disussed here quite often. I have a question: are the seemingly negative or discouraging comments coming from professional or trained artists attempting to mentor and critique others for improvement, or remarks made in artistic ignorance (I made such a remark recently, because I completely missed the point of the artist)? Before people get bent out of shape, perhaps they should consider the source? I have realized I need to develope my "artistic eye" a little more. That was a free lesson in itself from Renderosity- and I'm glad I got it.

Constructive critisim I can take, it's the sarcastic remarks that tic me off. For example, I spent 3 days on one image painting her hair. None of the comments I got had anything to do with her hair they were all about how her boobs defied gravity. Then I see another image using the same exact pose and over 50 people practically pee'd themselves rushing to make comments over how gorgeous it was and how great the hair painting was and no one mentioned her boobs. I don't think people realize that brown nosing the more popular artists around here basically gets no one anywhere but helping out the new artists like me would not only make them feel good for lending their expertise but would go a long way towards helping the not so hot artist improve themselves. And you can give critisim nicely, you don't have to be a jerk about it.

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Here's an idea when making constructive comments: suggest HOW to improve. Somebody may know something someone else does not. And if you don't know of any way, say so. But again, I have made helpful suggestions before and they were not too well received. I guess it depends on the personality type. Some want to learn, and some want a mindless slap on the back, not caring if their work ever improves. And some commentors' vocabulary doesn't extend past "OOOH", "WOW", "Gorgeous", etc. Eh - well, that's my two cents.

And don't call me Shirley!

I would like to chime in here. I personally welcome any crits on any of my images. I feel like sometimes though that I am on the recieving end of being one of those artists that get tons of oohhhs and ahhhhs on all of my artworks. Based on many of these conversations I have monitored since I have been a member it seems that if you get between 30-50 comments on your work that you are frowned upon. Based on what most people are saying those people don't deserve that many comments. Almost like it seems unfair to the other artists. I mean is that the consensus here? The other thing people complain about it seems is If you comment on someones art you are at risk of being a post slut...I may be confused here, but I thought the whole reason of displaying your work was to get feedback on your work. Not all of us comment on work because they need to solicit comments on thier own gallery. Sometimes those oohhhs and ahhhs are well deserved, and I for one don't think you should have to apologize for recognizing someones hard work. That's just my 2 cents. Thanks Michael

I dont think that is the point at all Hythshade. I think its more of people saying its wonderful just for the sake of saying something when there are obvious things wrong. Have you never looked at an image that was really sloppy and there were 25 comments all saying how perfect it was? I dont think its a matter of how many comments you get, its the quality and honesty of them. If it is a wonderful render, then by all means say its wonderful. I think alot of people are bothered by the obvious, comments that are untrue just not to make waves. There are always ways to kindly help someone out on something that might be overlooked or something they had no idea on how to do. Appreciating someones hard work is a good thing too. But, you have to realize there is a middle ground where its nothing but BS, and I think that is where some of the problems come in. I think that some people mention that when someone has 40 or 50 comments that they dont comment because at that point, what can you say that doesnt sound like you are repeating everyone else? But 40-50 comments on a sloppy picture just because of the name on the post and not the quality of the work, it another thing all together. hope that clarifies some :)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12358&Form.ShowMessage=1968725

For my opinion, check out this thread in the 2D forum.....

No comment.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Thank you to everyone that posted a comment on this. I've read everyone of your postings and I take every word to heart. Glad to see many of you feel the same on this topic. I've browsed through all your galleries and you're all very talented artists in your own right. Don't stop rendering, don't stop creating, don't let people's lack there of comments or encouragements stop you from making your art. It is by supporting each other, growing and learning from one another that separate us from the pack of mindless back slappers. See you all around the galleries. :)

I read your thread Rockatansky. I don't mean to be offensive, but this is exactly what I was talking about. I guess where I am confused is why it matters what other people are saying about other peoples artwork. If it's not your image why do you care? I noticed that you had a few comments on some of your galleries, that I might add had 27 ooohhhss and ahhhs, 20 ooohhhsss and ahhhhs. If it bothers you so much I'm just wondering why you don't turn off comments? I really don't mean to sound like I'm flaming, I really am just trying to understand why it matters. Just to play Devils Advocate How do you know that most of those people aren't getting crits in Private messages? Maybe you are just seing what's on the surface, because people didn't want to embarass that artist by posting crits in the open... I mean I certainly don't feel qualified to say who's art deserves more comments than my own. Especially since art is subjective. As far as how the comments are being stated, maybe some people truly are inspired, and can't seem to find the words that would properly describe what feeling a particular piece evokes. Once again I just don't think people should be criticized for complimenting someone else hard work. For all I know the crits will either be asked for in WIP venues or asked for. Be it open gallery, or private messages.

But that's my point...I don't want Oooooohhs and Aaaah's, I want positive crticism. Or at the very least, mention of exactly what it is I have done right (lighting, poses, composition etc.). I like comments, that's why I allow them....I just want people to think first!!

Rockatansky I just browsed your gallery. Had I seen your images I might have aahhh and oohhed and pointed out something I really like about each piece...in my opinion I think your art deserves the ooohs and aahhs. Having said that I tended not to look at other galleries but the Poser gallery and now realized I've lost out on seeing a lot of great artwork. Also not having much skill in the 2D area I did not think I could comment on the art there. I've learned that Poser galleries are very popular. Since I changed my postings to mixed medium ....I certaintly don't get as many viewings or comments (not that they were many to begin with...don't get me wrong I appreciate every comment I get) anyway....yes it's nice to have our work acknowledged and receive comments but it's more important for me to futher my skills then my ego. Maybe what some of us are looking for here is a place for constructive support, a place to learn and better our skills. But what we have at renderosity for the most part is a place of people (to steal geoegress's words) using software for self therapy.

Oh i'm reading the other thread.....wished I had known this was being dicussed in 2D...great discussions though...great points being made in both threads about basically the same topic. Small world isn't it?

It just shows that this goes on all over Renderosity. I've had IMs from 2 site members who think we ought to start a petition to remove the Hot 20. But, I don't think everyone is keen on removing the hot 20... Also, Doodles, you've also read this thread: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1975810 in the Poser community, right? cara

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=dukun

I agree with what Rockatansky written. ..........I don't want Oooooohhs and Aaaah's, I want positive crticism. Or at the very least, mention of exactly what it is I have done right (lighting, poses, composition etc.)........... So i can learn to do 't better. My english in not so good...to explane 't on paper...in my one words ..Read is fin....chat is good..butto write..grrrrrrr

Yeah that's a good idea... Get rid of the hot 20 and punish those that deserve to be there just to pat the egos of those that can't make it. The hot 20 gives us something to strive for. It's amazing how peoples opinion change once they get thier image in the Hot 20... If you want criticism there's a simple solution...Ask for them. Put your image in WIP, or ask in the image description.

Message edited on: 10/26/2004 16:47

The prob with the Hot 20 (in a number of the communities) is that often they turn into more of a popularity contest than an actual reflection of artitic merit. My suggestion in the Poser thread I mentioned in my previous post was... "As for the Hot 20, well, that seems a lil more difficult. Do we really NEED a "Hot 20"? We've already got the "Most Viewed" link, perhaps though the "Most viewed" should have a bit of tweaking... Most Viewed subfield: by day, by week, my month, by year and all time viewing" Because things can get tons of views even if they don't get tons of votes... I post in the writer's gallery, because that's my medium. We don't usually see as many posts as any of the other galleries that I've looked at and our Top 20 tends to be more varied day by day though, overall, it is dominated by one of the other writers. That's cool because I know that since there are so few posts in our gallery that most of us just look at the main gallery page and look at everything. However; I have stopped browsing the Top 20 in Poser because it is often dominated by the same ppl, and multiple images by the same ppl. I will browse through the first few pages of new stuff and look for eye-catching thumbnails and go from there, plus look at my fav artists notifications. I would really like it if the Top 20 was indicative of cool, innovative stuff all the time, but it's really not. Even if say an artist had multiple images being voted for, wouldn't it be nicer if they only appeared once on the Top 20? Perhaps all votes for a certain artist could only equal one place on the Hot 20 and then if you clicked on their name (or some thumbnail) it would open straight to their gallery, that would at least give some of the other Poser artists more of a chance to get on that list. And, like I say, I know NOTHING about Poser, I just like the stuff in that gallery... cara

"Most viewed" really means nothing, even when you break it up. It can mean popular artist, great thumbnail, contoversy, nudity, pin-up, interesting title, or this artist commented on a lot of peoples work and a lot of people reciprocated. It's not neccessarily indicative of a fantastic or even good image. If it gets tons of views and not a lot of votes or comments, that might tell you something also. Some really fantastic images I've seen had very few viewings.

I guess the question is, is there really any way to help correct this situation that the artists can live with AND that can be stopped from just being a popularity contest? What did you think of my off-the-top-of-my-head suggestion that artists can only take one space in the Hot 20? As I say, it's not as much (if at all) an issue in the Writer's Gallery so far as I know... cara

I honestly don't know what I think of that idea, at the moment... it could backfire, not really fair to someone who is deserving of two spots on the top twenty. As I said in the other thread on the poser forum, if comments were private to each artist, people would have to think of what to say on their own, and they'd have to decide whether to vote all on their own, and they could feel free to post a critism if they wanted with out worrying about any backlash from the rest of the viewers. And as I also said , I'm sure that would have it's own set of problems too.

it could backfire, not really fair to someone who is deserving of two spots on the top twenty. true, which is why I thought instead of opening to one image, it could open to their gallery (too bad we can't have more than 3 featured gallery items, eh?)... And I do like your suggestion about comments being made private to the artist but sometimes I like reading other comments to see what sort of an emotional response (if any) other ppl have had to things that have really caught me... cara p.s. at least it feels like we're doing SOMETHING in discussing this though :>:>:>

Yep, I like to read some of the other comments too. Honestly tho, sometimes the other comments have influenced me to say something other than what I would have originally said. My first impression might have been that something was really well done, until I read comments pointing out flaws, which I may have never noticed, on my own. Ideally, I suppose other comments should be read AFTER I've made up my own mind... but I have flaws, much like other people, and the system...I don't think anything is going to work perfectly or satisfy everyone.

I'd like to sign on for the "I welcome honest, constructive crits too" team.

The best model (and probably render) I ever did is of a Flying V guitar (it's in my gallery with all the comments) and the feedback I got enabled me to make it even better.

Well, OK, for better read "get the bloody thing right" but you get my drift? ~lol~

Without constructive, and I stress the "c" word here, crits we can easily get lost in our own little worlds where everything is warm and fluffy and we can do no wrong. It can feel nice, but it don't feel real.
If you see my stuff around the galleries please feel free to add your comments, both positive and negative, or I'm never going to get any better and you'll have to suffer my same level of mediocrtity for ever.

P.S.
"Yor pic iz a big pile of (insert misspelled expletive here) and U cant do art" does NOT count as constructive. ;)

Message edited on: 10/26/2004 19:36

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

Hi everyone as most of you know I am new to poser as most of you know I am just learning the basic's myself. Now being here in other galleries as well I know for a fact a lot of comments and votes are from others that do not know anything about poser,or the work being posted. Darn rights it is a personality contest or a "fan-clique" to quote PoserKatz, which is not fair and does not help any one. Yet again leaving crude or nasty comments (NOT Constructive comments) is not fair either. I think every post deserves some kind of comment even as little as I like it, look for something that is good, but not deliberate nasty one's. I think people should know the artist personally before making a nasty one, which should not be in comments but in an IM, I for one think the hot 20 should be abolished why because I've seen what it can do in each gallery I belong too.Thats my 5 cents worth (inflation ) :) Carolyn see part 2 please

Part 2 I'll admit I do have followers some come from poser, fractals,Terragen, and from other galleries who the last 3 either know nothing at all about poser or just like the image. However, I do not feel it is fair to be condemned just because 2 of my posts made #20 in top 20 for a max time of maybe 4 hours at tops which I did not feel they deserved to be there, Those commenting is a reflection of what they see not to be taken to heart.. However I do not feel anyone should deliberately attacked when someone who is trying hard to learn So I ask anyone who see's something that can be improved to do so through an IM why?for example I had been noted twice regarding hair I frankly didn't understand so I simply asked, I got my answer and now I understand now maybe more communication between each other privately would solve a lot of unhappy comments. All I am asking is know me before condemning me or my work Carolyn

To address a point made by Carolyn: I know for a fact a lot of comments and votes are from others that do not know anything about poser,or the work being posted. But that doesn't negate their opinions either. (though I know you know that :> I just didn't want that to seem vague, hope you don't mind, Carolyn :> ) However, whenever I make any sort of "in-depth" comment, as of late, I try to remember to point out that I don't know anything about Poser (or whatever) and I jsut try to view things with an artist's eye cara

Don't mind at all and yes I do know that, I just get a bit carried away sometimes and may not get my point across in the way I meant it to be. Yes me too If I do not know the program at all I comment on what I feel then I add " but what do I know I certainly do not know your program" or something to that effect. so I hope no one thinks I think I am any expert fair, fair from it. I just enjoy art :) Carolyn

Doodles on 10/25/04 09:16 [Printer Friendly] I am never sure if people are looking for or want constructive, real, honest comments on their art. I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings so on those pieces where I feel certain things can be done to improve it ....I just don't comment because I don't want someone pissed at me or think I'm a know it all biotch. I for one like it when others tell me how I could improve a piece, long as they are'nt an ass about it.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" ~George Orwell

agree on helpful tips I think there is a way to say things without hurting anyones feelings, to me there just is no place for the nasty's

First of all i don't consider myself an artist,it's to big a name for me.I just enjoy creating the images,for me it's just anoyher way to express myself.I just make the things in my mind visual and that gives me great pleasure but that's just me. To me any kind of comment is welcome [also no comment is cool] sometimes you can do something with it and sometimes you can't because you create from a different state of minde or you are aiming for something else. I believe that in creation everything is possible therefore it is difficult for me to tell someone something about improvement because I don't know his or her state of mind and his or her aim with the image.[if there is one] If i know about his or her aim with the image then I can say something to improve if that is neccesary but most of the time you don't know anything about the aim of someone. I usually on average got lets say about 20 comments on my images ,most of them possitive but I got a few with point's of improvement from the commentators point of view. i enjoyed them all. I truly believe that in my case those who comment do that to let me know that they did enjoy what they saw.[that's also possible you know] A few peolple did enjoy but thaught it could be better and also told me that in the comment.I assume that those who viewed the image and did not enjoy didn,t left a comment. that's cool with me those are all possibilities in creation. To me also if someone wants to say something i don't mind if it's in the comment or through IM. If I think it's rubbish i don't react on it and if it got to do with point's of improvement in a normal way imo ,I react.[see part 2]

I want to say also that pointing out points of improvement by others in comment is not the only way to go forward.You can also be critical of your own images. you can compare them to other images wich are realy cool in your opinion and than you will know what to do. I learned a lot by analyzing images wich I thaugt where awesome for whatever reason.[how they might did things and how they achieve technical things ] and by keeping my eyes open in real life. And besides that you must know your tools and try to improve there also and let your imagination be free. If i'm in doubt or want to know how something is done I also just aske. To put it short i'm not looking for anything when posting ,I just get great pleasure to create an image. I post it to share it with others and maybe to hear what they think but the pleasure was already there in the creation part of it.From the posting moment on everything is possible from comments that it rocks,to comments with improvement points to no comments because it is viewed but not cool enough,but the pleausure of creation was already there and I try to stay critical for myself. So all kind of comments are welcome but not neccesary in my case to improve or to enjoy.They can help you to improve but there are other ways also. Well that's about it and english isn't my native language so if you read strange things, you know the reason for that. Later.

1 more thing...Doodles you said you want the truth. For me to be able to say that I got to know what you want to achieve whit the image,Otherwise i can't tell you the truth about that specific image,I will just say something which is not necesarily the truth. That's it now i', finished. Later and see you in mexed medium.

Longrider, fair enough. You're right. I should state what I'm trying to achieve with my images so you all can tell me if I'm hitting or missing it.

first of all hey to all in the forum personally i am a developing artist and consider criticism to be the most positive form of commenting - i will never get better with comments like ' you're doing well' and 'great clouds' Personally i always check the gallery of the person who has given the comment - if they are a professional then it may be worth listening to them or if they are only a beginner then maybe you dont chose to listen to that comment - its up to the individual

Cara, Yes I read that thread also and it was what prompted me to post my question. I don't necessarily have a problem with the top 20. I think on paper it's a great idea, I just don't agree with how it's being managed and I'm tired of seeing all the same people make it on there. I think someone already suggested this in that thread but I would love an area where site moderators or someone who knows art, showcase images that are really good, have artist merit and for whaterver reason may not have gotten a hundred oohhs and ahhhs. I'm telling you that's the gallery where I would strive to appear in. Because I know it counts. I know it's based on my art not my popularity. I've been thinking a lot about this topic since I started the post here...and have been thinking about what everyone's said about it and was starting to think that maybe I was just bitter and envious of other peoples success and popularity in the galleries...but after going back into the Poser galleries and seeing all the over flattering oooohhs and aahhhs and saccharine comments, I knew it wasn't just me. I'm not envious of people's talents or success.....but I am bitter that undeserving people and images get all the attention while so many other images in the galleries go unnoticed.

That would be consuming for the site mods too though... I am still even more keen on my idea of the Hot 20 only allowing an artist to appear on it once and maybe beside their name, the artist could select ONE of their images as the tuhmbnail and then if you clicked, instead of opening on jsut the one image, it would open to their gallery. That way all the votes an artist got, no matter what the image was, they could only get one spot. It would also be nice if ONLY the artist knew how many votes each image had recieved or if no one knew how many votes and that could stop the potential of ppl getting all their friends to give them X amount of votes to get into the Hot 20. To use the Writer's Gallery as an example: right now (9:59 a.m.) in the Top 20, I have 4 poems, TallPockets has 7, netsia has 3, unchained has 2, Blush has 2, digitalgrey has 1 and Satanimus has 1. But if netsia, TallPockets, Blush, unchained and I each only held one spot (which opened to our gallery) then there would be 13 more writers who could then appear in the Hot 20. And, it would be nice if the site would allow us more than 3 featured gallery images and it would also be nice if there was a way for our individual galleries to be sorted by viewers. (ie) Sort gallery by: most viewed, most votes, date ascending, date descending, and artist's favourites (which could be our top X amount of our fav creations). cara

and the ranking of the Hot 20 could still be on # of votes but would say if it was for one image or mulitiple images under the artist's name. cara

Cara, I like your idea of having the thumbnail open to the gallery so it frees up spots for more members to be on the top 20. This is a great suggestion. That way perhaps in the Poser gallery alone it would open up more room for other people to make it there. It's a great idea but I don't know if the owners of this site would put such effort and work only to satisfy a small group like us.

I'd like to add something that doesn't seem to have been considered. I may be one of the worst offenders in the fluffy comments category, but I just like to see people pushing the envelope and working at the top of their abilities!! If that seems to be the case, I give my opinion, I can forgive alot of flaws in an image if I believe that person is actually trying to improve. I learned in the same manner as Longrider. not from criticism but from studying the works of those I admire and asking myself How did He/She do that. If they ASK for suggestions I offer them as diplomatically as possible!! IMHO there are too many who give harsh criticism to stroke their own feelings of superiority and that can be devastating to someone who's just starting out and doing their best!! My 2cents worth...

Doodles, well I emailed the 1 spot in the Top 20 idea to admin@renderosity.com so maybe they'll consider it. cara

Im laughing too poserkatz, I wasn't referring specifically to the poser gallery. I have a couple of friends who are excellent Bryce artists but won't post here for the reasons I mentioned, and it's the community's loss in my opinion!! I must agree that I've seen some beautiful images that get virtually ignored, and that has to be frustrating!! But you can't regulate that. if you want lots of comments, visit the galleries daily and leave lots of comments. people will respond. My point is that I never learned anything from a critic and I think people should consider their own motives before tearing down someones hard work!

jwdell, I have a question, are you posting solely for the reason of learning from a critique? I ask because of your statement: "My point is that I never learned anything from a critic". Does this mean you've learned things from other comments that were not critical? I'm a lil confused on that one. Maybe it's a lil different for me discussing this since I am a writer. I always love hearing when and if ppl have emotional responses to my work, if my writing makes them think, or be inspired or know that someone else feels/has felt the way they do so that they are not alone. If someone has a suggestion on how I can improve something, that's great too. For example, I posted "Sharks in Heaven" the other day, and I posted the original version and then one I modified slightly since the poem was a decade old. And I asked which version ppl preferred though most liked something about both shrug :> cara

I just think there's a right way and a wrong way to offer criticizm, if something is glaringly wrong with a picture and one feels obligated to point it out then some helpful suggestions go a long way toward softening the blow! svdl used to catch me at all sorts of mistakes, but he never criticized and always offered a solution. Compared to someone who says "Oh, you should rework that cloth texture" or "Her leg looks like it's broken". Then you click over to their gallry and get "no images found. Was this person being helpful? Or mean?

ahh ok, thank you for clarifying that for me :> I tend to look at the galleries of everyone who leaves me a comment and it is a lil disappointing when they don't have anything for me to look at, but that's the way of the beast I suppose... cara

"if you want lots of comments, visit the galleries daily and leave lots of comments." Isn't the point of this discussion that people shouldn't have to be "comment whores" in order to get feedback from the "community"? People who give comments as payback for comments received, rarely give an honest review...so commenting like a maniac to get a bunch of comments in return will only lead to false praise that sets one up for thinking they're better than they really are. This may sit well with some people. But what about the ones who enter the professional world of art and find themselves rudely awakened? I personally don't want someone commenting just because they feel obligated to after I comment on their work. I want them to genuinely express their thoughts on my stuff. Unfortunately, it seems that a lot of people here have the attitude of "she didn't comment on my stuff so why should I comment on hers?". Well, I'm not going to tell someone I like their work if I really don't. It's not fair to them or to myself, or the community for that matter. And since it's not safe to give critiques in this environment, I'm better off not commenting at all. But that's the way this place works I guess. It will never change because popularity is power in all areas of life. I swear sometimes I can't believe this site is populated by adults.

That's an interesting take... I like to comment a lot if I've got the time and when I get comments, I check out the galleries of the ppl who've commented on my stuff but I don't blow smoke up ppl's asses. A lot of the stuff I see on this site is excellent. Some of it is on it's way to excellence, some things are just not to my taste at all and some things seem ridiculous (like the "this is the worst image ever" stick figure stuff). cara

LOL, I go through all the galleries daily and comment on what I like, whether those people comment on my stuff or not is up to them. If that makes me a "Comment Whore" Oh, well! LOL, I've been called worse. Just like other aspects of life you get back what you put in. Bitch about that too if you like, people here have friends. Nothings going to change that! If you specifically ask for constructive comments many will respond to that as well. By all means Critique away, but like I said, offer solutions!!!

My son, who is 19, was a popular "artist" in high school. That is, he did trendy graphiti and cartoons and such, and showed talent in it. All his friends told him how good he was- how talented. Too bad none of those kids were real artists. Now he's in junior college art, and he doesn't like it. He is totally out of his element, and doesn't get any "glowing" feedback to make him feel good. So now I'm trying to talk him out of quiting, but it's tough. All those positive comments were reinforcing his belief that he was already good. Now reality is leaving a bitter taste. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd be would like to send it to him. Thanks Paul

"people shouldn't have to be "comment whores" in order to get feedback from the "community"?" You're right, people shouldn't have to be comment whores, BUT, there are thousands of pictures going by day after day. I can't look at every thing, of course, if I did, I'd be a comment whore :) but alot of times people who complain that nobody looks at their gallery are the same people who don't comment on anything, they don't post in forums or anywhere for anyone to see them, and thumbnails really do not last on the front page for very long. I try to check out anyone who's been to my gallery, I check what's new, I usually pick a random page from earlier in ther week and see what's there that has very few comments on it and visit those pictures, if I see a new name in the forum, I might go check out that artits whole gallery, and see what they've been up to. Ya might call that a comment whore but.... oh well. I remember how it felt to start out here, and it's tuff not getting any views or comments.

I can understand where he's at. Since I couldn't afford university I figured that since I write, that journalism would be the thing for me... but I ended up dropping out partly because I hated a lot of the aspects to journalism (except for the writing itself) and it also turned me off of photography for years. Maybe, if he does good cartoons and such he should look into starting an online 'zine or comic strip? cara

Sheesh Gladys, you sneaked your reply while I was still composing my one above ;> I can't look at every thing I completely agree, that's why in the visual galleries it's the thumbnails that catch my attention :> Hell, I even make sure I've got thumbnails on my contributions to the Writer's Gallery :> I haven't actually looked to see if the ppl who post a ton tend to comment or not, again, that's not really an issue in the writer's gallery though I can imagine it might be in one like Poser, though, perhaps they are busy working on their images and ideas and don't post comments as much as they post their own art. Should we fault them for that? I don't think so. But I do think that it's important to view and comment on the art of others and I strive to do so. :> cara

---"LOL, I go through all the galleries daily and comment on what I like, whether those people comment on my stuff or not is up to them. If that makes me a "Comment Whore"..." That's a different scenario than what was originally suggested. ---"Just like other aspects of life you get back what you put in. Bitch about that too if you like," Who's bitching? It always seems to me that the ones with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo are the ones who get the most hyper about the whole thing. :D ---"If you specifically ask for constructive comments many will respond to that as well." Been there, done that...rarely works. I give up. ---"I can't look at every thing" Me either. But according to some people (not specifically in this thread) that makes us "selfish". I mean, there's just no way to win. ---"but alot of times people who complain that nobody looks at their gallery are the same people who don't comment on anything, they don't post in forums or anywhere for anyone to see them" Not me. I'm happy with the number of views I average. I also make comments on the images of others that I view. I never base my comments on whether or not that person commented on mine though. That's the difference. The forums have some of the same problems as the galleries...cliquish. Certain posts/WIPs get more attention than others based on who posted it. I've seen some really great artists shrink away from the site because they're punished for their shyness. I think it's really sad actually. And the community is lesser for it. But the only ones who can change that are the ones who perpetuate the popularity contests. And we all know they won't. They'd rather call the outsiders names and go on their merry way. ;)

Just got back from peekin at your gallery, indigosplash and your artwork is Brilliant IMHO, I'm not blowing smoke up your ass when I say that, but Gladys is right about the pace here, the images go by at an astonishing rate, and leaving comments generally gets people into your gallery! But you're right in your statement that it's not going to change. I'm still trying to figure out why you're so angry, if you're happy with the number of views and comments you get??? Gotta go to work but I'm interested in your Opinions, since we're getting off the subject in this forum maybe we can talk via IM later?

Oh I'm not angry. I'm sorry if I've come across that way. I can only type for so long before my arm muscles give out (medical prob) so I try not to get too wordy. Unfortunately, I think my point gets across too bluntly then. Anyway...I'm not angry, just frustrated. Frustrated as a whole by how the system operates...not just to me personally. So much hurt comes from the hot20, the cliques, the disregard for other people's feelings and situations, all of it. Yet rather than compromise or offer alternatives, everything remains the same until next month when the debate starts all over again. Perhaps it can never change and we just have to live with it...but clearly it's a source of a lot of discontent because it's an ongoing discussion that resurfaces more than just about any other problem. And I feel like the ones who are unhappy aren't being heard, or at least considered because they're being drowned out by the ones who don't want to hear it. Anyway, we can talk via IM if you'd like. That's cool. I just didn't want to finish posting with the impression that I'm really angry over here ;) I have to go off-line for a while though at the moment, but I'd be happy to continue in private when I come back. BTW, thank you for your comments regarding my artwork. I appreciate your thoughtful input and for taking the time to peek at my stuff. :) Have a good day at work!

Okay, I'll admit to the fact that I enjoy any views or comments I may get. The comments I like most are when a viewer tells just what there was about my image that they liked, or the thumbnail drew me in, or the lighting is great, etc. And I even don't mind a comment to make my work better. Yes, several of my images have made it into the Hot 20, surprising the heck out of me. And yes, it is dominated by a few artists, some of the work belongs and some doesn't, and there are lots of images that should be in there and aren't, but I've always figured that's just the way it is. I don't post with the hope of getting into the "20". I post because I love what I do and enjoy sharing it. And if someone has the time to stop by and have a look or comment on my stuff, well, that's a bonus! I do wish I had more time to look through the galleries and comment because I know I am missing a lot of good work by artists with all degrees of talent.

FlyByNight

In general, I don't frequent the galleries. I am, admittedly, a forum bunny. When I do go into the galleries, however, I very rarely comment. If voting is allowed and I like the image, I'll vote for it since it's there. Two chief reasons that I don't comment are: 1 - My personal artistic skills need a fair amount of work 2 - I do not wish to offend those who post for reasons other than feedback. However, given some of the people I respect have noted their willingness to recieve critiques, I shall attempt to overcome my reticence and cause trouble there, too.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Heheh, uh-oh, what can of worms have we opened here?

FlyByNight

well, based on the first 300 images in the poser Gallery, not a lot. :S Seems I have a much narrower definition range of "fantasy" than the gallery posters do. But that's a subject for a different thread. I'll dig stuff out and keep an eye open. Off to look at the other galleries now.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I've been slowly but surely peeking at the galleries of ppl who've been posting in this thread :> cara

'Then you click over to their gallry and get "no images found. Was this person being helpful? Or mean?'

I agree jwdell - that's the last person you want or need any critique from. Show me - don't tell me.

In truth, I don't ask for any constructive criticism and I don't want any either. I already know what's wrong with my images but I've grown tired of working on them and so they're uploaded. Better luck next time. I've never had the problem of knowing when to call the image a done deal.

Of course the whole process is a lot easier if you don't go around calling yourself an 'artist' - way too much responsibility with that. Call yourself a 'Renderist' instead and it's no problemo :)

So true ;))) To be artists is one thing, to get pieces and rendering is well other ;) I'm with cagewench opinion about the Hot 20. Also, I don't see the reason to have it. I really am totally against those people coming to ask for comments. That is weird. Am not speaking of people having 1 or 2 comments, but of people having from 20 votes to up. I came to know many go asking for. Lucky me, that happened two times only (good for them). What has been told here generally is absolutely true. Problem is finding an answer. So many times have thought myselves to disable comments. But then... what's the fun? Is nice getting comments. But I have seen wonderful works with 1 or 2 comments in. By the other way, I have seen works absolutely not wonderful having 40-50 comments. Then RR is all a friendship thing? If you have friends you get vote otherwise you don't? I have also seen images where the author was crying about not having the possibility to get clothes over their figures, and immediatly after... this person started to get a looooot of comments ;))) I think is hard for each of us taking what we need for playing with our programs :) I don't know which is the answer, but I know one thing for sure: someone left RR's galleries. Is not posting here anymore. And this makes me sad, because I love RR and because I find it a nice place to stay in. I truly hope they will be back, may be one day, when people with more humility will be in. I have also read the message which has been left to Classylady: unfair, real unfair. IM's was hard?? Well, had to tell my opinion me too, and thanks for having given the opportunity ;) (Wishing my English is a bit understandable at least LOL)

Don't normally post in the forums...usually stick to just posting my images and trying to keep a somewhat low profile, but here goes. I have read the thread and the link to the other thread...good points have been made and because of it will probably change how I post my images. I always post in the Poser gallery but since I do postwork....maybe they do belong in the mixed medium gallery. Also will be disabling rankings...really not sure why I enable it other than it was there.. so why not? I am not sure what the cure or solution is as far as this thread is concerned....it's my thinking that there really isn't one....it's just they way it is....but sometimes is healthy to vent and purge our thoughts on it. It's my goal to improve my skills in Poser and Photoshop and comments giving me tips or tricks to help me towards that goal would be appreciated. =) Oh well...I wish I could offer a clever and foolproof solution....but I have a hungry baby to feed. ;~)

OK, here is my 2 cents worth.
On the subject of comments. I enjoy the comments I get! On the other hand, I moved to the Poser gallery to get more informative comments. Yes we all love the OMGs and EXCELLENTs, but I would like to see more of " the lighting is a little off maybe you could .......".
I don't give critisism well,
number 1. I don't have the skill or knowledge yet,
number 2. People can be really hurt sometimes if you don't do it in the right way, "the right way being different for everyone"
I would never want to hurt someones' feelings!
Then you have the comments like "It's interesting, I'll give it that". Well, the image with this comment was one that I was not happy with.
"This is my first attempt at compositing more than 3 renders. I'm not very happy with it but practice makes perfect, right?

Thanks as always for taking a look and your comments or crits are needed and appreciated!"
Taken from my post.
Not a malicious comment but,hmm, no help there! I have also had friends get angry on my behalf. I try to difuse it whenever this happens.
I leave comments when I can, I'm on dial up at home. It takes forever to keep up with my favs and then check out the galleries. But I try to look at everyones on the page, I don't jump around looking for the most viewed or commented. Fairs' Fair after all!
On the Hot 20,
It's not something I worry about. I don't check it very often. Mainly because the images in it are from the same people, over and over.
One thing I do want to mention and I feel very strongly about this, why do people feel the need to solicit comments? Why do some people insist on sending me generic IMs, saying "Thank you for your comments on my image blah blah. Your comments mean a lot to me. ps. new image posted"? Umm, you are already on my favs list. I have a name you know!
If it's going to be a popularity contest, I'll just go on and opt out. I left that crap in High School!
~WHEW~ I feel better now!

ROFLMAO Tammy!!! We needed of this thread, didn't we?? ahahah ;))) Well, I must tell you there are a few of artists I really LOOVE a lot (and yes, I call THOSE artists, just a VERY few), and when it happens they come commenting I really FEEL the need to go saying THANKS A LOT!!! lol! Ya know me Tammy, so ya know what I mean ;) That is because I appreciate someone who REALLY should feel to be an artist came right to me making a comment! Well.... first I say HOLY CRAP!!!, then i go immediatly thanking hun. THOSE are the real good people; they wouldn't need for real going around to commenting, because you go yourselves! because of the stuff they do and the fantasy they have! But they still have the humility to go around and commenting, and I LOVE to see such a behavior! Is an intelligent way to be! And for what concern myselves, saying THANKS A LOT!!! is sooooo nice ;))) But I understand what ya mean. Many go saying THANKS! so they'll have comments too (probably). You're right about one other thing also.... in fact, going to see the HOT 20 is not that fair.... people is almost the same there ;) Is not because of people in the hot 20, is because of what's behind: friends and friends, or people who had a favour or whut the heck I don't have the idea! Now this has been real freely Tammy uh? LOLOL!!! ;)))

Some folks are OK with crits but an awful lot can get very touchy about it - especially if you point out a flaw and then everyone who reads your post looks for it ;-) For that reason, if ever I do spot an obvious error (I don't tell people that figures are floating - if they can't work that bit out for themselves....well) I will send them a private IM about it, hoping that they'll accept it as help and not an attack on their work. I've seen plenty of 'WOW's' on images that don't really deserve them. I;ve seen plenty of work that REALLY deserves to be on the Top 20 page and vote for it - but they never get there. I belong to a Yahell group and we all post links to our new gallery pix, but I felt that they were just saying "WOW, GREAT, AWESOME" or whatever because they're friends and feel they HAVE to make a comment. I no longer post new image links to that group and I've told them why. If they wanna seek out my work and comment that's fine, adn if they don't then that's fine too cuz at least those who DO comment are doing it because they want to not cuz they feel they have to. Can I take my serious head off now please and put the ditzy one back on ?? ;-)

Gill

"I've been slowly but surely peeking at the galleries of ppl who've been posting in this thread :>" Oh, good lord!!! Please, not Mine!!!! And definitely not here! lol. much rather you have ya look at my RDNA gallery, lol

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

http://www.runtimedna.com/

Gill

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=781869&Start=1&Artist=pmoores&ByArtist=Yes

I never comment on the really bad art, half the time its in a area I have no experience in anyways. But I will say that had I not got the comments I did for the very first picture I posted here, I probly would have made 1/4 the pictures I have since then. Those comments were the boost to actually try harder. Course I musta lucked out haha, cause took quite along time to get that many or quality again.

Theres definately some bad stuff out there, and I suspect in some cases they actually got a group of freinds doing all the 'omg its beautiful' 'best picture ever' cause when I look at it there is no way.

OH, and why was there so few good comments on this picture: I worked on this one night and day to finish.

http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=781869&Start=1&Artist=pmoores&ByArtist=Yes

Message edited on: 10/29/2004 19:26

When it comes to comments, sure, I like coming home to the ebots in my mail saying I have comments on my images - puts a good end on the day for me. It shows me that my images were seen, and hopefully, appreciated :) and I cherish every one of them, whether its 3 or 30 or whatever. A lot of times I wish there was more time in the day so I could comment on all the excellent art here whew since there is so much that is so very good :) Believe me, there are tons of artists here that are wayyyy better than I am LOL and I am always still learning - I dont think we ever really stop as artists. When I feel there is something the artist can do to make a change in a piece, I usually take it to IM so I can explain my POV better instead of posting it in a comment that may be in error - the artist may have intended for it to be that way and I never want to step on any toes LOL Take it from me, I'm no one to tell any artist that somethin's wrong LMAO And thats my two centolas :)

"First comes the chaos, the change, then the growth" - Madelyne Pryor

I enjoy browsing the galleries. Some names attract my attention, some thumbs catch my interest, sometimes a theme or subject. Sometimes once I've viewed the actual posting I'm moved to post a comment. Sometimes a pic is so close to what I'd consider great, I make a suggestion or criticism, but I always try to express it in such a manner that it still conveys an overall positive view of the work. Hard enough when working for hours on a picture to keep all the subtle details in mind. Sometimes I've been so close to it, that flaws are completely invisible to me, but immediately evident to nearly anyone else. I keep this in mind when expressing suggestions on others works. Remarking on the two or twenty elements that really worked well in a picture and then adding how a little postwork could fix where the dog's leg is sticking out through the girl's cheek seems like a more effective communication of my real reaction than just a terse remark like "dog's pose is really bad" or something such. Sometimes there's nothing worth criticizing in a pic that's really quite effective at what the artist seems to have been trying for, and those are often worth just a "lovely" or "beautiful". A lot of pictures bring me enjoyment to view, and remarking such to the artist is, I think, never out of line, even if 5 or 25 people already said so. Jerry . . . Just my 2 cents worth, opposing views expected and encouraged. . .

I wrote a LONG reply last night, posted it, and it's not here! ARRRRRRGH! This is the second or third time this has happened to me! Anyone else having that problem?

The sessions automatically time out after about 15 minutes. If you take awhile to type something (like I occassionaly do), it's a good idea to copy what you have written. Then press [Post Reply]. Check to make sure your reply is there. If not, just paste and post again. Hope that tip helps you as much as it helped me. Best wishes, Lillian

Lillian Hawkins
Marketing Manager
By serving each other, we are free.

I do that normally, and I find it sometimes helps to rt-click-open in new window on any available link on the page, (like the membername in another post), or press Ctrl-N to open another browser window with a renderosity page on it (IE6). This renews the session, and then when I post I don't get dumped back to the forum lists entry page.

Mine was not a time out problem. It was a case of hitting "Post Reply," seeing the message apparently accepted, but no message was on the thread when I looked later. Fortunately, I had nothing important to say so it didn't matter, but it did leave me scratching my head.

Sigh. Well, I'll save it next time, that's for sure! ;-(

I enjoy receiving comments on my works, and I enjoy commenting on the works of others. If I think it's great, I say so. If I spot an error, I say so - but only when I have an idea how to improve the image, or when I am sure the poster has the skill to do the improvement without my pointers. But I always try to be civil. Sometimes I specifically ask for suggestions how to improve an image, especially when I don't know what exactly I'm aiming for. My personal definition of critique is an objective analysis of what's good and what's bad about an image. If someone criticizes one of my posts in that way, I treasure it, it helps me to get better. And I'm not afraid to criticize someone else's work the same way, it is not too difficult to write objective criticism and be civil at the same time. Trolling is another issue. I've seen some comments in the style slinger describes in post #34, and that kind of comment is almost always made by members that don't contribute to the community. Not much we can do about it, I'm afraid. It gets me pissed off a little, and I often write a (better spelled and more intelligent) barb, but that's about it. About the oohhs and aahhs, well, some ego stroking is always nice! And I would have posted less images here (maybe none at all) if it weren't for the encouragement and support I received here. When I have the time, I look for names in the Poser gallery that I don't know yet. If it's a first time poster, I always welcome and encourage him/her. Some of these newcomers have come a very long way in a very short time, others are struggling step by step to get better. As far as I'm concerned, they're all welcome! "Bad art." I hate those words. Since I'm not an artist myself (I'm not good enough, haven't read much about art, and I definitely don't have any training in the arts) I will NEVER call something "bad art." And even if you're a professional artist with formal training, I don't think you have the right to call something "bad art." The works of Van Gogh were called "bad art" in the time they were made... Maybe it's a good idea to take notice of the title of the comment box: your helpful comments for improving this image....

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

First of all, unless the poster is a newbie begging for comments, I seldom reply on anything that doesn't have some artistic merit and that is at least "good" by my standards. I occasionally leave an oooh or ahhh comment, but I usually try to tell them something specific about what I like. Now, I have a degree in journalism and have worked as a professional editor at a newspaper. There, we routinely worked with creative professionals (writers, artists, photographers, layout people, ad people, etc.). There, we were taught how to give criticism so that it would be well received. 1) Start with something nice. Not false flattery, but something specific and concrete that you like or enjoy. What made you bother to take the time to comment on it in the first place? 2) Even if there are 200 things that could be done better, try to mention only 1-3 concrete, specific things that could be changed or improved. 3) Close with something positive. I hope this doesnt sound contrived or manipulative, but this actually works (especially since, as I said, I dont waste time on work I dont like), but if people will follow this format, youll leave comments that will be helpful and well received.

In answer to your question remember that everyone is different and artists can be some of the most tempermental of people.First I say I agree with some of the things said here but disagree with most.You can be nice and sweet all you want...and still get attacked because you're comment wasn't good enough or wasn't what the artist wanted you to say.Some people don't realise how much stuff gets posted on this site and how grateful they should be for any comment at all so long as its not insulting.

Thats why you see so many gratuitous comments like "great pic" as the people viewing your art often have a lot more to do than view your works...yet they took the time to view yours and leave a comment.Compare views to comments on works and you'll get the idea as most views don't result in a comment.

To me its not the commentor who is at issue but the artist as once you put up your art you have no right to expect or demand any special treatment regardless of how you personally feel.So if you ever get a cold response from an artist Doodles...strike them off your list and don't comment on their work again~you took the time to view and comment for which they should be grateful but often aren't

My advice is that if its good enough to view and you like it,leave a comment...even a little joke or a standard great pic:)However,my feeling changes when you rank the image because if you compliment the image without giving a critique about something you think needs improved,then you have no right to give the image a low rank...rank should reflect your comment and can hurt even worse when the artist finds their work just got ranked "Needs Improvement" when the commentor only said how wonderful the image was.

When commenting remember to set aside your own "agendas" as if you don't like images of big breasted women...at least don't act like an idiot stating that women like this don't really exist and attack the artist when if it was a woman with what you consider to be "normal" sized breasts~it would not have drawn your ire or you might not have even commented on at all!!Might surprise you to know that millions of women have naturally large breasts which is why so many other women want them if even by artificial means...view the image first and judge it fairly.Its like my objection to using the child morphs to create nude images,I placed an adult in some of these situations and objected only if the character was posed in a clearly sexual manner by adult standards.

I have only deleted one image from my gallery because of a comment and that was one where the comment was aimed at me regarding the loss of my mother...sometimes artists pour their souls into an image and just need to say a word about what they're experiencing~to insult them or try to one up them by saying get over it my problems are worse than yours is reprehensible.You can say what you want about the art...but never under any circumstances critique a comment that the artist leaves on their work where they are expressing their feelings~your only need is to comment on the work and maybe try to cheer them up,not to attack them for sharing a moment with you about something thats going on in their lives.

Insults are the only thing that peeve me because most of the time the insult has nothing to do with the image...beyond that either offer no rank when you comment or make the rank reflect your comments.That to me are the only rights an artist has once they put up an image...

In response to ms houston,never limit your comments to an established artist as its the newbies who need you most.If you don't think their work is worthy of merit or good by your standards...how do you expect that the artist will know this and the dejection they feel that no one notices them can be heartwrenching.These people are the ones who really need your support and helpful comments...the better artists generally have a sense of how good they are and because of that,some develop an attitude.

I have found that often most comments come from friends you've made on rosity and some of the very best artists may get even less support than some of the worst because they don't have time to develop the friendships and such needed to get support.I have so many people on my favorites list and yet keep falling behind...when I go into the gallerys and comment on art I actually look for newbies and people who get few comments,if the image has been up for ten minutes and already has 15 comments then its obvious this person doesn't need my support because they're on enough favorites lists to do well.

I will comment on great artists works,but I'm also more likely to point out minor flaws that they miss because they're far enough along to not make such mistakes.If you want to make a living at this then even as good as you are,never get mad when someone points out a mistake as thats a mistake that could have cost you a lost commission or a loss of reputation~until you make it big,the first word of protest out of your mouth could very well relegate you to the nameless masses who may do great works and never gain the recognition you deserve.

In my case,the days I made a living from art are behind me...its just a hobby for me so I don't care what comments I get so long as they're not insulting.If you don't like it tell me why...if you don't like the images content,send me a personal message to discuss it as others have done just that and instead of an enemy I made friends.But if you attack me or a friend just to slam us,I will come after you and your work better be perfection or expect to get slammed in return...thats a little inside info as there are a lot of people who do the eye for an eye thing as well so treat others as you might expect them to treat you~then expect the worst if you've insulted them lol.

To ask what makes a good comment is kinda a loaded question when its the artists themselves who will be answering...surprised some of these guys didn't mention that they will complain and actually instruct you on how to comment on their images since that happens as well.To me its more the artists themselves who are at issue...how well do you handle comments good or bad when you should be glad that the commentor commented at all (save for an insult)!

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

If you're wondering,I take art seriously as that was my area in advertising.There are so many forms of art to achieve a possible outcome that you can never judge a piece of art by how it was created.In the art world,if you create an image with flaws then thats all that matters...I wouldn't care if it were done with a 3d mesh or a crayon,I would judge the art by the artists attention to detail and you don't have to be able to actually fix the image to point out a flaw~its the artist themselves who are expected to fix mistakes that any novice with no experience can point out and that maybe should not have been made to begin with.

For the hobbyist who does this for fun I say expect the worst and then then its not so bad lol.If you post and expect a comment,then don't get mad if its not what you want to hear unless its clearly a derogatory remark made only to insult the work or you as an artist.

Trolling for comments?The only trolls I dislike are the ones who actually leave a link to their image in their comment or actually write you because they're disappointed you haven't commented on their work...beyond that,let them comment as its up to you to comment or not in return.

Lastly,a lot of things could be done better on rosity that never will be.The top 20 to me is a joke because its always the same people on it but if you don't like it here's my suggestion~get together each week with 20 other members who feel like you,each in turn has a top 20 list for the week...then from these lists come up with your own top 20 and give the top winner a $20.00 gift certificate for winning.Then that artist cannot be selected again for an entire year so everyone has a fair chance.At the end of the year you should have 54 winners and surely you could pick out one artist for artist of the Year among yourselves and offer a prize worthy of the title.One last point...your top 20 "must not include" people from the rosity top 20!!

Fair?

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Well, speaking as one who was hyper-hyper sensitive when I first joined up here, I'm now really happy to draw any comments at all. ...and any that do come in sure are appreciated. Looking back at my earlier stuff, I now realize folk were being really generous, unfortunately, it took a looong while to realize that... :(

Just commenting to applaud Armourbeast. Also, I can't believe someone would be so crass and disrespectful to make a nasty comment on an image you were doing in remembrance of your mother. My Mom died a week ago and I have barely been on the site except to post a couple of poems about it and I've had extremely supportive responses as well as IMs about it from some of the other artists on the site, whihc tells me that despite the comment dilema and the fruitlessness of teh Top 20 in most galleries, there are some good ppl here. Sorry for your loss. Cara-Mae

Armorbeast -- You misread me. I do comment on newbies, and I tend to be gentle with them. I also do not comment only on established artists, but those who show some artistic merit. I don't care if they're established or not. In fact, I never pay attention to who the artist is until after I see the image (and I almost never actually go to the artists page). It's just that there must be SOME basic level of talent apparent before I'll invest the time to write something; hopefully the artist is here to improve their skill, but without some basic ability, well... To put it crudely, I don't waste my time commenting on things that totally suck. By the way, I like your suggestion about an alternative way to pick a Top Artist. I've never even been to the Top 20 here... maybe I'll mosey over and see what's there.

First Cara let me say that most who know what happened to me know how devastated I was as my mother was basically the only family I had.What happened was I had been dealing with depression and a lot of stress...then I found out my cat was dying of cancer as well which caused a total relapse on my part because I just couldn't handle it.You literally have to know the grief of feeling you somehow contributed to your mothers death because of your and her faith in the doctors...but I had misgivings even though I still had faith.Then she died in absolute agony because hospice kept screwing up getting her morphine...they finally got her pills when they knew she couldn't swallow and she was dead before they authorised a morphine drip.It wasn't my cat having cancer that set me on a downward spiral...it was having everything from moms death come flooding back because she died so horribly from cancer and dealing with it all on my own.This person was someone I thought a friend and she knew everything I was enduring...thats why her comment hurt so much and it was being hurt that led me to delete the image.

MMH...lol,I didn't misread you as I mean't commenting on peoples work you might think suck if they're a newbie.The point I was trying to make is that these people may simply not understand poser or know anyone to ask for help...sometimes it only takes one person to show a little interest for that person to make a remarkable transition.But I would never say I won't comment on someones work who I think sucks lol...if nothing else,if I have friends I occassionally comment on~they'll believe my not commenting means i think they suck when thats not the case at all;P

But if they refuse an offer for help or just don't seem to listen then yeah...leave as they have to find their own way but it feels good to teach someone from your own experience.I know some people think its a pain,I don't and in fact created my own site where people of all talent levels can come and if the members can't help,heck I'll try to;)

As for the Top 20...yeah,you'll have to do something like that to have any control and pick people who are deserving.The top pics shouldn't rely on votes or comments because we all know those are phoney and its been a real problem people have complained about on here for over a year now I know.I don't think there's anything wrong with someone asking you to look at their image though...get your attention and maybe even a comment in return.But for that to somehow show you are better than everyone else...no lol,when the same people dominate that top 20 all the time you know somethings wrong as they should have their moment and then others be given the same chance.The only way that can happen is if some of the members who want change get together and create their own Weekly Top 20 and what good is having a top choice without a reward?I can see at least ten people on this thread alone who claim to want change on this...between 20 people you should be able to pick a top 20 and surely you can collectively afford a $5.00 gc;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Forum: Community Center

Subject: To comment or ....not to comment ...that is the question.