Renderosity has caved to pressure from PayPal. Starting November 22 your shopping choices in the Renderosity Marketplace will be censored according to PayPal's standards. Many merchants products will be eliminated. The resources available to you will be restricted by the corporate giant. If you want to keep your freedom, tell the admins how you feel about having your choices restricted to appease PayPal, a multinational corporation that doesn't know what art is. Nerd

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 17:57

I don't believe in PayPal, I won't use PayPal, I don't believe in censorship.
I do believe in seeking my purchases elsewhere in the FREE world.

Come on people, Art and especially Poser have nudes. If nudity is that disturbing to you than take up coloring in coloring books, jeeesh!

note: yes I feel modesty in thumbs needs to be taken as I too like to browse from work when the opportunity arises, but this "Total inialation of nudity" attitude!? I do not want my Poser to be reduced to a PlaySkool toy for kiddies! I like my freedom regardless of what the minorities think - Kerry lost and so should the shameless art critics with their filthy little minds - Romeo and Juliette is NOT Porn! Neither is Petter Petter pumpkin eater, Little Miss Muffet!
Oh, and Huck Fin...I had to think a bit, it's banned for so long....

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 18:05

A revolt against the policy will not make a difference. So,there really isn't alot of reason to start an uproar about it. like it or not,and I don't like it,because my best selling item will most likely be removed soon. Rosity NEEDS paypal and so do alot of merchants here as well as customers. and Rosity is NOT going to drop them. The3dZone

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

Maybe they could sell the adult items at Renderotica. Unless Paypal has the same policy there as well.

I don't understand how a banking company can dictate sales policy. Can someone explain?

not to sound like a complete idiot, but how will that work for character textures? Is it only complete nudity, or partial nudity that will be banned?

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

A couple of questions: Nerd, how do you know this? And what types of products will be eliminated? Examples please. 3dZone, why does Rosity need PayPal? Which of your products will be removed and where else can I find it? As for me, I think it will be Rosity's loss. If a vendor can't sell here, s/he will just find somewhere else and let us know through the Product Showcase. Rosity will lose their cut. Unless of course the loss of sales via not having PayPal as an option outweighs the loss of sales of those particular items.

Oops! Cross-posted with Nerd. Nevermind my questions, Nerd. And thanks for the info!

First they came for the naked ones...

Jackson, alot of merchants use paypal to get paid,mostly those outside of the united states,I believe. plus alot of customers use paypal to shop here as an alternative to using credit cards. I have not been informed yet if any of my products will be removed,but I do have 2 that meet the criteria as listed in the letter for removal. The3dZone

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

"Effective immediately Renderosity will no longer broker the following types of products:

1. Poses or activity were any person (regardless of age) appears that they "could" be engaged in sexual activity.
2. Items that appear "sexual in nature" or are intended for "adult audiences" (example: bondage gear)."

Hell and damnation! There goes half my wish list :-(

All hail the Great PayPal Taliban!!! :-P :-P :-P

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 18:57

...then they came for the ones who clothed the naked.

Whew! Just got out of the Merchant's Forum and talk about a firestorm.

Wanted to remind folks that Renderosity is not to blame for this change. Rendo has to bend to the whim of the people holding their money. PayPal is notorious for freezing assets for alleged infractions, usually with very little warning. If Renderosity fought this change, it would likely cost the merchants and the site a fortune!

The best thing to do to fight this type of censorship... cancel your PayPal accounts. Refuse to be part of a company that wants to dictate how you spend your money.

Will it work... who knows. I prefer to be an optimist today and hope it will.

Yikes! This is going to crush a large portion of the free market in the name of someone's interpretation of "right or wrong." I have to say that it doesn't really surprise me in a lot of ways, what with the knee-jerk ultra conservative reaction in the United States after the recent nightmare elections. Expect to see more of this, campers, as select portions of the population and the ruling class make their demands law.

Hmmm ... according to the letter it appears there were additional factors here besides Paypal. It appears as though a bigger goal is to increase exposure to other markets (which is good for all of the brokers, actually). Renderosity strives to be known as a "family-oriented" site, so this change would help support that.

PayPal is owned by eBay. Here's a quote from their "About Us" page:

*About Us

Founded in 1998, PayPal, an eBay Company, enables any...*

I just did a little browsing on eBay and took this screen shot from their Everything Else>Mature Audiences section. It's only part of the first screen that showed up. Page blurred and text blacked out purposely by me.

In case you can't see it, every item violates their policy. Something ain't right here.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:22 P.S.: Note the "Adult Toys" section. I wonder if it contains anthing that is "sexual in nature" or intended for "adult audiences?"

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:28

It was stated before, but I think it needs repeating: Poser is a program about the HUMAN BODY!!!!! Not just the arms, legs and head. We are reverting back to the days where it was forbidden to show a belly-button on TV. God help us liberals! Oh well, The Renderosity store was a great place to buy Poser items, but I guess all good things must come to an end! Thank you, you closed-minded, cowaring little "business men".

My comments about paypal's fascist actions will not be printed here since I like my account in its current state and to air my tru opinions about paypal will cost me said account 'cause such words are a clear and very plain violation of TOS

Why shouldn't speech be free? Very little of it is worth anything.

Just FYI: PayPal policy is actually a reaction to restrictions imposed by VISA. PayPal has gone overboard, yes, to cover their butts, but they didn't start this. They're just playing (VERY) safe. VISA have generally made it VERY difficult for anyone who wants to sell "adult" products by imposing very high annual fees and setting incredibly low charge-back ratios, among other things. As for eBay, you will notice that "mature" items can't be purchased with PayPal (IIRC).

And from what I understand it's not even the Mature content that VISA is concerned with directly. It's the fact that statistics show that people who order mature products on the Internet (ie. Porn site customers) have a much higher charge back rate than other groups. But I don't see how that would apply to Renderosity merchants and customers?

There was a thread in the Den a while back where a college student was accused of browsing a "porn site? (Renderosity) at the school library. So there are some who have/still perceive Rendo as a porn site. While Rendo strives to be a "family oriented" site, having adult-oriented products in the marketplace doesn't help the erroneous impression of it being a porn site. Also ... I have to agree with the previous message, where it said there are a high rate of chargebacks from porn sites. My VISA number was stolen, ironically when I made my first Paypal purchase several years ago. And I noticed it when I began to see charges to porn sites on my bank statement. Needless to say I promptly closed the account.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:53

Attached Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/

This site may be of interest to those who want to learn more about why so many people disapprove of PayPal and their policies.

"God help us liberals!"

IIRC, the huge "anti-porn" movement that continues to this day was started by the democrats under Carter. (PORN MAKES MEN RAPE WOMEN!)

"As for eBay, you will notice that "mature" items can't be purchased with PayPal (IIRC)."

So they can sell the items but not take payment for them? After all, it is the same company. BTW: The few I looked at do accept VISA cards. And if eBay can sell adult items as long as PayPal isn't listed as a payment option, why can't Rosity?

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 19:55

The wife of one of my friends had a small web site, which she closed several months back. She is a Photoshop/PaintShopPro junkie. On her site she had a small store that she sold sets of brushes, tubes, frames, layer styles, etc. that she made. None of which had ANYTHING to do with nudity or adult content. On this site she also had a small gallery of her own digital paintings (about 15 in number). No links to the gallery from the store, it was completely separate.. JUST AS IT IS HERE! One image in the gallery showed the backside of a nude man, and another showed a woman's breast. Because of just those two images (non-erotic, or suggestive)...PayPal FROZE her account, and havent paid the small amount due her (yet). The income from that site was not even enough to cover the site cost...it was all just for her fun, so they just decided to shut it down. This really, really is not good!!

They will accept VISA cards, yes, but the burden of responsability falls on the issuing bank, not eBay itself. I am not fully inforned of all the details of the issue, but I know the problem comes with credit card processors, ie companies which act as intermediaries between an online retailer and a credit card company. Whatever the exact details, I do know that this problem stems directly from VISA policies (and not, interestingly, Mastercard, at least, not to the same extent). And PayPal does act as a credit card processor when it is used to make payments which originate from credit cards. So eBay will sell "adult" material as long as it does not serve as a "credit card processor" in the transaction. In other words, as long as eBay/PayPal is not connected with the transfer of any funds for the sale of such items. NOTE: I am not trying to defend PayPal. I believe they have gone way too far in being "careful". But they didn't invent this all. VISA did. And I believe that VISA's policies are a result of interference from the Justice Dept's attempt to crack down on porn, when they failed to do so in the courts. In brief: unable to prevent the sale of porn legally, they circumvented the issue by working to make it difficult for people to sell such material on the financial side, by having VISA inact very strict policies. I base the above on information obtained from within the porn industry itself.

[Maybe they could sell the adult items at Renderotica. Unless Paypal has the same policy there as well.]

Renderotica does not take PayPal for purchases there because of PayPal's rules.

Being an adult site does come with other restrictions. Merchant Accounts cost more (not just PayPal). And other companies are reluctant to sponsor or advertise on an adult site.

Renderosity has obviously decided they would rather not have those restrictions placed on them. That's their perogative. They are a business.

By the same token, Renderotica is a business that has chosen to deal in adult merchandise. We won't restrict what you can show and sell in the store or post in the galleries (with the exception of children and bestiality).

Renderotica welcomes vendors to submit their products to us. We have no restrictions on nudity or products of an adult nature. Your customers from Renderosity and maybe quite a few new ones from Renderotica will find you and they will continue to buy.

Please feel free to contact me at diane@renderotica.com or Ironbear at s_barnes@direcway.com We will do everything we can to expedite testing and get your products up in our store as soon as possible.

If we're paying for it, why should paypal care what we're buying?

Oh (word deleted). This is just wonderful. I'm not buying anything that they'd find offensive, mind you, so I don't think there'll be much trouble (there better not be!) with my purchases.

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

"The majority of the female breast must be clothed (at least 80%)."

Quick, hurry up and finish in Iraq so we can attack PayPal and free the women the too!!!!

But what if she's flat chested? Where does the '80%' start and end?? Message edited on: 11/15/2004 20:24

PapaBlueMarlin; PayPal is just making sure that you don't hurt yourself and that you practice good morals. PayPal is only promoting A Wholesome Fascist Society since Hitler failed. Besides, Renderostiy 'needs' PayPal, we don't as our money still spends just the same elswere ;p

I know money talks but this is especially disappointing--though not surprising. Unfortunately, the only way to make an effective statement is for a significant number of people to simply stop shopping here which will never happen. If one thing counts more than votes in this country, it's money. Unless people start using that power influence the course of events, such policies will continue and indeed get worse. Complaining here is pretty much just pissing in the wind.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

The 'sity seems to want to kill itself. Many merchants will pull their whole store and move to another site, probably some of the best vendors here. Personally, I'd never buy a texture that isn't shown complete and in the nude. A number of pose sets here deal with intimate (though non-sexual) interaction between two figures that "could" be viewed as "sexual". The fetishwear ban is just a silly since it's just clothing items, that could be shown in the main picture and thumbnail unconformed and in promo's 2 and 3 on the figure. 80% of female breast? On a summer day you see more on an old lady waiting for the bus. Frankly, I expect them to lose a lot of business over this. Their best selling items are textures for figures. There are other companies that handle this kind of transaction other than PayPal, with a lot fewer restrictions. I'd investigate those before I threw out the best vendors and products they have left here. I'd also have asked the vendors for their input before I made the decision. If your vendor base is up in arms about it, it isn't going to be a profitable undertaking. I'm also concerned if other sites will follow the 'sity in this. If they do, the I want to buy stock in the company mentioned in post 27 (not naming it myself, since the last time I mentioned an "adult" site I got a warning). Note to vendors: When you do move your stores, please let us know where you go. I have money I want to spend, and come the 22nd of November, not much will be spent here anymore.

The Merchants effected are not without options. Poserpros does accept some of the items that do appear to be affected here and they also work with Paypal. Richabri is a merchant there as well. Check out the restrictions on other sites and see what can be done. As Diane herself said, R'otica does not accept Paypal but does allow for Check and CC payments. Diane has been very gracious in dealing with customer service issues as well. I have dealt with her both through e-mail and over the phone. R'otica itself is a free-site unless you want to get into the Premiere picture galleries. You still need to sign-up for a membership through to protect them.

Since the 'sity also maintains art galleries, will these have to follow the new rules? After all, that's definitly part of the site. Will the galleries lose all the NVIATWAS?

Wow. The rotica store is about to get =real= big... And I hope Rosity is sure of what it's doing; frankly, much of its user base deals with things that violate VISAPayPal nonsense.

Igohigh said "The majority of the female breast must be clothed (at least 80%)."

Quick, hurry up and finish in Iraq so we can attack PayPal and free the women the too!!!!

But what if she's flat chested? Where does the '80%' start and end??

Igohigh, It starts at the top of the forehead and ends at the soles of the feet. Haven't you seen a burka?

Ack!!! Ack!!! And I can't get into the merch forum to see!!! Damn damn damn....

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

What's next, Poser Prohibition?

No More Drinking And Doing Poser???? I'm Outta Here!!

...and when are they gonna put pants on those dragons? That big ol' tail hanging out like that is just plain disgusting!!!!

And hey, fair is fair, if women can't show breasts anymore then I don't wanta see no more hairy Man Chests either!!! After all, it's all about equal rights!

Oh, and no more bare feet either, after all that too is a whole world of porn in itself!

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 21:14

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 21:27

I wonder what Reonderosity Exclusive merchants will do.

I agree with pdxjims - I primarily shop for characters/textures here, other things at other marketplaces. If I can't see the whole texture in action I'm not parting with the $$. Can there be a link to offsite pics on the seller's pages? Or how about a link listed in the readme since we can view the readme's online. And if that is an option, how about readme's in html format so my lazy ass can just click on a link. ;)

I wasn't going to respond to this, but as always, I reserve the right to change my mind. I have never considered any of the poses "Naughty" "Nasty" or "Degrading." Art is Art. If they are going to shut down the amatuer who likes to use the 3d programs, then they'll have to go after Hentai, then professional art, and then start yanking down the "Master" works from the Louvre. All of the great masters painted nudes. Heck, the dome of the Cistene Chapel is filled with them. Thank goodness for Michael Angelo..and he had to work with a closed minded church. I will go so far as to say, that all I feel when I see the great artwork, textures, outfits, and accessories, is jealousy. Because, I am one of those unfortunate few who can't draw a straight line with a ruler. :) I would guess that the thing to do, is stop using Paypal, cancel your Visa Card and get MasterCard Debit Cards. If enough people stop using Visa, maybe they'll get the message. A not so noble patron of the Arts....

Ok, this sucks for lots and lots of reasons....I just started buying things here in the past few months (I didn't realize paypal would take money from a Canadian bank until June of this year), and I've seen many many many many MANY things I would like to buy. All I can say now is, well, I hope the merchants I want to buy from sell elsewhere. And, I thank my lucky stars I have a MasterCard, because this Visa/PayPal B.S. is getting absolutely ridiculous. There is a fine line between smut and art. And, yes, both can be made with the articles in the marketplace, but not all things made with anything HAVE to be one or the other (or either).
Does anyone have a listing of all of th other stores that sell Poser items? I would be very interested, since I'm just getting my footing in working in 3D....I'm still learning, but I'm trying to dive in headfirst, and stupid crap like this doesn't help. I've seen some excellent merchandise, but, ya know, I'm willing to spend more money at a merchant that won't treat me like I'm less important than my money.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 21:38

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

The new PayPal rules are, IMO, total and complete bollocks. PayPal ought to STFU and be happy that there are so many people willing to do business with them. You, me and everyone else are why PayPal is successful. and they should not be dicatating to us all from some nebulous standpoint of nudity = evil. I will be ceasing any business with them as soon as possible (like, right about now), and I strongly urge everyone else to do the same. Fer fux sake, how in the world is a merchant expected to show a skin texture (which is after all, duh, skin) without nudity? Jesus H Christ on a pogo stick, this is stupid beyond belief. I have always thought DAZ's rules bit the big weasel and it was for that reason that I never bought characters from there. I really wish I could say that I can afford to do without these bullshit artists but the sad truth is, I can't. Like so many other merchants, I really need to show my stuff at the biggest market, and that means here. Not a direct criticism of RO, but a very strong wish they'd tell PayPal to fuck right off. So, sad to say, I'll still be seling my stuff here but you can bet yer collective asses that I absolutely not be dealing with PayPal again. As Father Ted would say, "Feck off!"

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

...and when are they gonna put pants on those dragons?

I've been asking for a good trenchcoat for years ....

"-Minimal cleavage exposure. The majority of the female breast must be clothed (at least 80%).
-No suggestive or sexual positioning."

Well, there goes 75% of the Marketplace. Seriously. These criteria will all be subject to someone else's value judgements. And in order to meet any possible definition, some of the most innocent stuff will be a no-go.

"It's the fact that statistics show that people who order mature products on the Internet (ie. Porn site customers) have a much higher charge back rate than other groups."

From the point of view of someone who has experience running such sites and contact with many others, this is actually not true. There are some trouble sites, as in any market, but VISA & PayPal's targeting of the Adult market has been disproportionate. They've been extremely Draconian over the past year and a half. Don't expect that to change for a few more years, either.

My question is this:
Will there be some kind of flag or notification for potential customers between now and the 22nd for anything that might be pulled from the MP due to TOS restrictions? Preferably something that would show up when we look at our WishLists. I too second the mention of the R'otica MP, but that's going to be every merchant's individual decision.

"It's the fact that statistics show that people who order mature products on the Internet (ie. Porn site customers) have a much higher charge back rate than other groups." That is PURE and TOTAL b.s. I work in the Loss Prevention department for Mastercard. We RARELY get chargebacks for p0rn related items. 9 times out of 10, at least on the internet, it is failure to produce merchandise from gasp Ebay. Whoever's coming up with those statistics must work for James Dobson.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Good point! I'd be VERY leary of purchasing anything here that may be pulled on the 22nd. I'd rather wait and get it where it'll have support. I've been going through the marketplace's "What's Hot", and an awful lot if those items are going to go away.

I guess I'm just overlooking the obvious. If more texture/character artists were to post images (of the detailed variety) in the Product Showcase with a link to the character/product I'd still be inclined to buy here. Otherwise, I'll stick to my 3 or 4 favorite vendors since I'm well aware of the quality in their products. This kind of makes it hard for a new character artist though, I hope the Product Showcase forum will be seeing a lot more traffic in the future. ;) Paypal has had these rules for quite some time, this isn't "new". Enforcing those rules ~here~ however may be. I use Paypal (have for years without a problem) mainly because I don't trust giving out my CC number to every Poser marketplace. Until a better payment method comes along (or they royally screw me) I imagine I'll continue using them. BTW, for those worried about Paypal freezing your account. Just make another account at your bank just for Paypal transactions and link it to Paypal. Cancel your old personal bank account and make a new one of those too for all your other financial business. Now Paypal has no ability to reach funds you don't allow them access to.

Please. Listen to a 25+ year veteran of retail. Do not just drop PayPal and Visa. Take 30 minutes, and write up a detailed, polite, explanation as to =why= you are taking your business elsewhere. It is very easy to hide truth when the customer just goes away. Letting them know exactly why you are depriving them of your money is much harder to hide. Tell some friends about it, and if they agree, get them to follow your example. Neither PayPal or VISA are irreplaceable; there are alternatives to both. Remember the Exxon Valdez, and Exxon's 'we're not cleaning up shit!' attitude...until they started getting all those Exxon cards back in the mail, cut up. The general public =is= the tail the wags the dog, folks. Rosity most likely will not draw this line in the sand; they seem far too interested in getting that 'family' approval star....despite the fact that it will destroy them. As the purchasers, it is our job to stand our ground.

If pdx is right and Paypal objects to all 300,000 Nude Vickies in the gallery, then Renderosity would have no choice but to dump Paypal. My guess is that the system will correct itself and get back to the way it was.

Bookmarked- this is absolutely incredible!

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 22:32

Since Renderosity seems hellbent on closing down my store I'd like to mention that all of my adult products will continue to be selling at both Poser Pros and Renderotica. Thanks for the mention Natolii :)

Furthermore, I'd like to apologize to the hundreds of customers who've purchased my products and similar products by other Merchants. In an effort to make us second class Merchants, this policy makes so many of you second class members inspite of the generous financial support you've given to Renderosity.

I know I don't owe this apology but it will be an icestorm in hell before you get it from the ones who do owe it to you.

"Since Renderosity seems hellbent on closing down my store I'd like to mention that all of my adult products will continue to be selling at both Poser Pros and Renderotica. Thanks for the mention Natolii :)" Considering I won't be able to purchase some of your items until the 19th... Good thing I prefer to purchase from PP as a rule and even better that you are hosted there. Renderosity's actions are to the extreme. As I stated, Poser Pros also accepts Paypal and also has guidelines in regards to nudity and porn. Yes, they do not allow certain things however, alot of the items here are also either considered art elsewhere or are parts of the lifestyles of certain segments of our population. I think this is an ill-thoughtout, knee-jerk plan. "Family-Friendly" my arse... I am more comfortable browsing over at Poser Pros with my 9 yr old anyway. WHAT does that tell you?

1 teeny tiny question, and then I'm running like the wind 'cause I'm already in trouble enough for raising cain. um, if this is the death of renderosity, then what about Poser Pros -- who have exactly the same policy -- or DAZ (who don't allow any nudity and are larger than rosity and pros both) who haven't been killed by it? That's all. I'm not allowed to voice my opion as I will be flayed and (probably) banned should I do so, so I have to simply watch and wish I could take part...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

8-) ynsaen ... good point.

well, let's just say I'm actually sorta glad it's paypal they are after instead of me, lol. I read my email and was sorta shocked 'cause it sounds an awful lot like something written not too terribly long ago by, um, er, one of my other personalities. Yeah, that's it.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

At the request of Ardiva, posting this here as well: Regarding showing nudes in products: you can. In images 2 and 3 for any product. You just can't show them in the thumbnail, the first image, or in images pulled in from offsite. So that's two full 800 by 800 images that can show nudity for every texture. That's actually rather clear in the email sent out, as evidenced above (which is actually where I read about it first, then scampered off to my email)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

@ynsaen :)

You may not like this but a banking company has a right to set any policy it wishes. That's free speech.

But Renderosity ALSO has that right.

So Renderosity should exercise its own free speech rights by dropping Paypal and using someone else.

Free markets AND free speech.

That's how America works.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 22:55

So Renderosity should exercise its own free speech rights by dropping Paypal and using someone else.
Free markets AND free speech.

I don't think the other options are as popular as Paypal. From their standpoint (ie: Renderosity), I suppose they'd have to weigh which option makes more money ... the sales through Paypal or the sales of adult-oriented items. Judging by their decision, the option seems obvious.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 23:00

How did I miss this thread? Whoever said Visa is behind it is correct. They are calling the shots. I wondered how this site had escaped them for so long but was very glad they did. My Pay Pal account was locked with almost $500. in it 6 mo. ago today. I have yet to receive that money and I doubt I ever will. I was cancelled for having the letters "bdsm" in a webset description. So..if Renderosity doesn't comply they will lose whatever money is in limbo at the time the account is locked...most likely a good amount. You can't fight them, begging doesn't work. There doesn't seem to be an intelligent being anywhere in the Pay Pal system. Losing Pay Pal hurt my business substantially. At paypalsucks.com there is a page with payment alternatives you can check out. Yow Cow seemed ok at first but it is such a pain for the customer all of mine backed out of the deal. I heard Stormpay is ok but never checked them out. It is sad that such uptight individuals are running the world.

ok ok, I'm starting to succumb so I have to leave rosity for the night, but one more question: What other service out there has the acceptance of Paypal and offers the equivcalent service? Flat out. Wo else out there can do what paypal does and has the same level of acceptance? To be fair, I'll set a comparatively low baseline of one million active accounts. List 'em folks -- I guarantee that not only rosity but a whole bunch of other folks will LOVE to know. I gotta go or hubby will place his boot on my heinie...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I've said it before, I'll say it again: DESTROY ALL LAWYERS!

Not only is this going to seriously damage the amount of products in the MP (try doing a search for 'bondage', 'fetish', or 'hot', it's staggering...) but a lot of merchants are going to have trouble making enough of a profit to continue releasing items.

Face it folks, SEX SELLS. I've seen quite a few talented merchants who released standard character or clothing sets, and then started releasing more 'adult' products instead. I don't have to wonder why, when products like genital add-ons and bondage poses are constantly in the "What's Hot" listing.

I guess I don't have anything new to say about this situation, but it wasn't long ago I received an email regarding a massive lawsuit filed against Paypal in Northern California... and I've had my own negative experience with them, including having my account frozen for a year as a buyer, I don't sell anything through Paypal.

Not a pretty picture here.

• Molly

welcome to the new world, courtesy of your wonderful new president, the FURHER BUSH. when you vote extremist you get extremist actions.

This might help understand why...

Though I don't have to agree with they way they are going about it.

http://www.poserpros.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24016

(no membership required to read.)

To Quote Mehndi: "When we first hooked up with Paypal, we had high hopes of qualifying for some of their programs that would have given us a good deal of very much needed free advertising and publicity, but because we had any nudity at all on our site, we were rejected, and put in the category of businesses Paypal was ashamed of. To qualify for those free services we would have to make, and enforce, a no nudity, no sexuality rule on our site. This is how strongly paypal feels on this subject matter." I take it Renderosity wants to take advantage of these programs.

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 23:40

"Until a better payment method comes along...." "Whoever said Visa is behind it is correct. They are calling the shots." "Yow Cow seemed ok at first but it is such a pain for the customer" All I can say is that I have never been happier since shredding ALL my credit cards. No more monthly payments, no more sur-charges, no more intrest charges.....And the market place and venders I buy from Don't have to pay to accept my payment via check or money order. Plus the store can hold my purchase untill my check passes - No risk of PayPal (or other) 'freezing' their account or charge backs. But then ya, I do have to wait 7, 8, even 12 working days to recieve my purchase....but hey, I'm a very patiant person ;p SEX, DRUGS, ROCK-N-ROLL Oh No! SEX, DRUGS, ROCK-N-ROLL Oh No! SEX, DRUGS, ROCK-N-ROLL Oh No! ROCK ON!!!!

"welcome to the new world, courtesy of your wonderful new president, the FURHER BUSH." gee, I didn't know Bush owned PayPal and Visa....guess we should just let Kerry screw it up instead and then he coulda send more spit wads to arm our troops...or not...but maybe...or...

'but a lot of merchants are going to have trouble making enough of a profit to continue releasing items.'

That's a very accurate observation Fashionably_Late and it will definitely affect me in just the way you mentioned.

If the truth be fully known, I use the revenues from my 'adult' products to continue making the sets and clothing items I'd actually prefer to make - but as was already mentioned - sex sells and by a fairly wide margin.

BTW - I really don't know how much of this has to do with Paypal or Visa but I suspect that they are accounting for a very small portion of this policy change. Not that I don't think that Paypal sucks mind you! lol :)

No I don't think it is politics. I think it is greed and free advertising... See above post.

You're doing great, igohigh!! ;)

Back to post #69; where ever did this whole idea of Charge a merchant to accept payment of merchindise come from anyway?
I wonder just how much PayPal, Visa, etc make by allowing stores to accept payment from the store's customer?
I wonder how much cheaper things could be if stores didn't have to pay a fee to accept their customer's cash??

What ever happened to the good ol' days of "Hello Mr. Merchant, I'd like that one on the shelf please and here's my cash of which you only have to charge me sales tax but NOT CC/PP tax."

"PeePee tax"?? OMG! Now we gotta pay to do that too?!?!?

Message edited on: 11/15/2004 23:50

Lets keep the politics out folks. If nothing else it would be a great excuse to lock the thread, and no one wants that to happen.

igohigh wrote: "gee, I didn't know Bush owned PayPal and Visa....guess we should just let Kerry screw it up instead and then he coulda send more spit wads to arm our troops...or not...but maybe...or..." It's been strongly rumored that VISA in particular has been targeting adult sites (as well as Credit Card processors who do business with them) as a "favor" to Ashcroft's office and the Bush government. As VISA is currently jockeying position to try to get its hands on as much of the debit processing market as possible without upsetting the antitrust cops, I'll give you three guesses as to what they're probably hoping for in return....

Please don't censor Anime/Mayadoll. Please don't censor Anime/Mayadoll. Please don't censor Anime/Mayadoll. Please don't censor Anime/Mayadoll. Please don't censor Anime/Mayadoll. Sorry, you were saying?

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Again I don't think politics has anything to do with it. Poser Pros and Renderosity are both in Tennessee and fall under the same laws and such.

Ha!!! The forces holding me back from commenting thoroughly have been um, err, eh, sated, yeah, that's it, and naturally went to sleep straight away. So I'm free! Free! Oh, wait a sec. I gotta get some good stuff to reply to first. darn it. Back in a sec...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Right now I'm sitting here nekkid in the forums, does this mean I can't go to the Market Place untill I put something on?

Liquer is all I need to post MWAHAHAHAHA! er did I have something to say? NUKE THE WHALES! no... that wasn't it.... I KNOW... FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! C'mon ya'll join me! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS!

No Liquer Berserga! These are the days of Poser Prohibition! but I'll join in on the liberation of Vickies boobs, gotta love those liberated women! ;p FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS! FREE VICKIES BOOBS!

lol@igohigh: 'Right now I'm sitting here nekkid in the forums, does this mean I can't go to the Market Place untill I put something on?' You can only look at the second and third store pics until you put on some clothes :) Reading the content of the posted email doesn't convince me that this is politics or anyway related to Paypal or Visa. This seems like a policy decision at the level of Renderosity administration.

"FREE VICKIES BOOBS!"

Where? I'll have a couple of pounds of them apples. ;)

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 00:29

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Whatever the reason...it is a damn shame. I have always liked shopping here and have never had any troubles. I didn't make it to adulthood to live in a Disney world so I suppose I will be purchasing most of my products elsewhere if the merchants leave.

I loathe V3. She's too damned expensive for me (dear lord, that sounds terrible), and she's a scapegoat that makes most people think Poser is equivalent to Pr0N.

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Hello everyone this is your action news reporter with all the new that is news across the web on the scene at the Renderostiy Market place. There seems to have been some disturbance here. Pardon me sir, did you see what happened? "Ya I did. I was stadin over thar by Stephanie's lingerie when here he come, nekkid as a jay bird, runnin through the props section, then through the hair piece section and right through the Poser accessories section, nekkid as a jay bird with the PayPal police right behind em! And I howlered over to Ethel I said 'Don't Look Ethel!' she'd already been incensed.." Here he comes, boogie-dy, boogie-dy There he goes, boogie-dy, boogie-dy And he ain't wearin' no clothes Oh yes, they call him the streak Fastest thing on 52K He's just as proud as he can be Of his anatomy He's gonna give us a peek Oh yes, they call him the streak He likes to show off his physique If there's an audience to be found He'll be streakin' around Invitin' gallery critique... This is your action news reporter once again and we're here at the Renderosty Gallery. Pardon me sir, did you see what happened? "Yeh, I did...I was just in here gettin' my thumbnails checked and he just appeared right out of the Poser forum, Come streakin' around the Bryce Gallery there, Didn't have nothing on but a smile I looked in there and Ethel was gettin' her a IM, I hollered...'Don't look Ethel!' It was too late...She'd already been mooned, Flashed her right there in front of the Michael 3 Gallery! He ain't rude, boogie-dy, boogie-dy He ain't lewd, boogie-dy, boogie-dy He's just in the mood to run in the nude Oh yes, they call him the streak He likes to turn the other cheek He's always making the news Wearin' just his tennis shoes Guess you could call him unique... Here he comes...look...who's that with him? Ethel, is that you, Ethel? What do you think you're doing? You get your clothes on! Ethel, where you going? Ethel, you shameless hussy Say it isn't so Ethel Ethel..................

::sighs:: Conspiracy theories and inanity aside... Read Entry # 67... I firmly believe this is the reason behind it.

"Renderosity has caved to pressure from PayPal. Starting November 22 your shopping choices in the Renderosity Marketplace will be censored according to PayPal's standards. Many merchants products will be eliminated. The resources available to you will be restricted by the corporate giant. If you want to keep your freedom, tell the admins how you feel about having your choices restricted to appease PayPal, a multinational corporation that doesn't know what art is." As a mistress of spin, the P5 Gestapo, and silly bitch, I feel compelled to admire this work of art in and of itself. For one, it doesn't mislead. For another, it's absolutely accurate. For a third, it is written incredibly well and essentially kicks ass. I love it. Tip o the bonnet to ya sirrah! "Maybe they could sell the adult items at Renderotica. Unless Paypal has the same policy there as well." Paypal has the same policy everywhere. As noted later on (by Diane herself, no less) Paypal is not accepted at Renderotica. "I don't understand how a banking company can dictate sales policy. Can someone explain? " Paypal is not a banking company. Paypal is not even a savings and loan company. Paypal is an evil unto itself. It has no regulations to which it must submit, no oversight, no FDIC insurance, nothing. Paypal is necessary, however. Still waiting on that list of other services that are mentioned to exist -- and just how many do you have? Go strictly credit card, perhaps? Processing fees triple or more the minute you sell something the processors deem to be adult. Won't even go into the costs that are associated with chargebacks for someone branded with that. I know. I'm treasurer for a group that did what was suggested in another post and went out and started a company and a website. And gee, I've managed to keep it going without spending more money, but it's not even close to as effective as selling here. yet. Support your independent content providers!!! It's a LOT easier said than done. "not to sound like a complete idiot, but how will that work for character textures? Is it only complete nudity, or partial nudity that will be banned?" It's not banned. Only from thumbnails (which means getting more creative there -- shouldn't be hard in a community of artists) and the first image of the three and then from images linked to offsite. "Fascism is when you impose your belief system on others against their will. If PayPal's actions aren't Fascist I've never seen it." sorry, wrong. That's only an effect of fascism. I know -- I've been accused of being fascist. From Encarta: Fascism, modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy. Despite the idealistic goals of fascism, attempts to build fascist societies have led to wars and persecutions that caused millions of deaths. As a result, fascism is strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism, racism, totalitarianism, and violence. That's fascism. Which bears more resemblance to some of the suggestions made in posts in this thread. I can now only imagine how wonderful it must be in the merchant's forum. Funny, too, how Nerd had to announce this, while the admins haven't bothered to say anyting officially about it yet. "Oh well, The Renderosity store was a great place to buy Poser items, but I guess all good things must come to an end! Thank you, you closed-minded, cowaring little "business men". " And what has changed all that much? There was, once, in another forum, a discussion about these very products where it was suggested that they be moved to a "special spot" within the store. 2 things wrong -- one, it would still be affected by this, and two, that was done once already. That special spot turned out to be a huge nightmare, and suddenly becomae a site on it's own -- I believe it's now called renderotica. one sec while I go look... yep, that's it. (sorry, no links. Can't link, but I can say it.) "And if eBay can sell adult items as long as PayPal isn't listed as a payment option, why can't Rosity?" Good question, Jackson! I'd high five but I'd like knock my monitor down and I can't afford another one (sides, it's so lame to high five these days...) I would think it has something to do with the tiny part of the letter that says : "...our rapidly expanding customer base, feedback from merchants, buyers, the community, and educators, limitations placed on sites with content deemed sexually explicit or adult in nature,..." Note that within the last three months I've seen five postings regarding folks being told that basically rosity is a porn site. Renderosity is listed as a porn site in several cities across the nation. Phoenix Arizona -- that bastion of democratic self reliance (hey, we impeached Mecham, ok?) -- has banned it from libraries and other government offices. Which are all under three levels of pretty democrat rulership, for those who want to pin this on politics. It ain't politics. There are more -- and that hurts. That means that new people can't get here. That means a reputation. And While individuals such as myself might not give a rats ass what someone thinks of us, that doesn't mean companies can (gee, anyone wanna buy something from Enron right now? What? no? They're theiving bastards? Oh, ok, just checking). btw -- um, don't hold this against me. Please go shop at my store -- I need the money :) anyway, the point there is that this is NOT only about Paypal. However, by meeting the "paypal" standards, odds are they can get themselves off those lists and improve their reputation. And that, unfortunately, means that, um, yeah -- they gotta change what can be sold in the store and the way it is sold. And what's really funny is that the nudity stuff is NO different from the ones at Poser Pros or other sites, and meets paypal guidelines quite nicely, thank you. Oh, and funny -- poserpros is not on that list of porn sites mentioned just a bit ago. NOw I would hope that no one here thinks I'm some sort of blankety blank rosity stalwart. Good lord, I'm banned from the merch forum becuase I got upset with them. You ever try to run a store here without the information they want you to have? I mean, we're talking about merchant emails that have "important links" to stuff in the forum -- links I can't follow so I can't know. So don't try pinning that on me. Aside from my settin ya straight, I'm not so sure Clint and Lillian would say I'm one of their all time fave folks. Course, I'm not looking up noses, either. So let's see -- to get More exposure and increase the marketshare and stay competitive in the larger market, they have to limit the sales of a single group of items. I mean, for cryin out loud folks, we've got an 8 year old selling in the store! For his allowance money no less (and, well, no he hasn't sold anything from what I can tell, lol) Then there's this part: Effective immediately Renderosity will no longer broker the following types of products: 1) Poses or activity were any person (regardless of age) appears that they "could" be engaged in sexual activity. 2) Items that appear "sexual in nature" or are intended for "adult audiences" (example: bondage gear). 3) Products that display child or teen nudity. Ok, so the first one simply matches the rules in the galleries. Damn. There goes our hypocrisy level. We were really gettin 'em with it, too. The second one, well, hell, I've used some of the stuff in the stores as part of the outfits in fantasy images. Then again, there's other stuff that doesn't quite work that way. Who makes the call? Clint. Him I know for sure, and knowing his methods overall, he'll probably consult with a couple others -- Jeny, Lillian, Debbie, for ex. Love him or hate him, clint has no problem making decisions. he does need to back off a bit sometimes when he takes heat for them and listen instead of just crossing his arms and glaring with sarcasm, but generally he tries his damndest. And gets little credit. Which is wrong. Folks at Poser Pros make a call and it's all sweetness and light. Here they are evil incarnate. uh-huh, yeah. Maybe thick at times, but not evil incarnate. "If we're paying for it, why should paypal care what we're buying?" Paypal doesn't care. Paypal 's beancounters were counting beans one day and notcied that folks doing porn stuff -- both merchants and customers -- were costing them a ton of money. So they said screw that and told the lawyers to draft a policy. And well, someone already made a bad suggestion about them (hey, my daddy was a lawyer. He just wasn't anything like william shatner). "50. Re: Your Choices in the Marketplace will be censored by PayPal by Dale B on 11/15/04 22:17 Please. Listen to a 25+ year veteran of retail. Do not just drop PayPal and Visa. Take 30 minutes, and write up a detailed, polite, explanation as to =why= you are taking your business elsewhere. It is very easy to hide truth when the customer just goes away. Letting them know exactly why you are depriving them of your money is much harder to hide. Tell some friends about it, and if they agree, get them to follow your example. Neither PayPal or VISA are irreplaceable; there are alternatives to both. Remember the Exxon Valdez, and Exxon's 'we're not cleaning up shit!' attitude...until they started getting all those Exxon cards back in the mail, cut up. The general public =is= the tail the wags the dog, folks. Rosity most likely will not draw this line in the sand; they seem far too interested in getting that 'family' approval star....despite the fact that it will destroy them. As the purchasers, it is our job to stand our ground. " Great, except I really don't see how this will destroy them when the almighty DAZ has an even more rigorous policy in place and is considerably larger and more potent a player. Sex still sells folks. Except now you gotta get more creative in they way that sex sells. "Renderosity's actions are to the extreme. As I stated, Poser Pros also accepts Paypal and also has guidelines in regards to nudity and porn. Yes, they do not allow certain things however, alot of the items here are also either considered art elsewhere or are parts of the lifestyles of certain segments of our population. I think this is an ill-thoughtout, knee-jerk plan. "Family-Friendly" my arse... I am more comfortable browsing over at Poser Pros with my 9 yr old anyway. WHAT does that tell you? " I'll have to disagree. Rosity's actions are sudden, however. No warning, no gentle easing of something like this like they would normally do. No, this is caused because someone got pissed off at them and reported them to paypal. At least in part. but, again, these guidelines are now Exactly the same sort as Poser Pros already has in place. And they are also why you are more comfortable browsing poser pros with your kid than here. That will likely change shortly. Well, except the forums. lol "I take it Renderosity wants to take advantage of these programs" well, they won't be able to -- they still have nudity in the galleries and nudity in the store. 2nd and 3rd images. And now I've reached the end.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Although I addressed it above, I'll go back for a second. Re: post 67: The only problem with the logic is that even with these new rules in place, Renderosity will still have nudity. So they cannot qualify for those programs and gain free advertsing and such anymore than Mehndi could. only the initial images are covered under the draconian paypal rules. One click in is safe. At least, for now (evil cackling laugh)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

So... What happens to the stuff we have bought and payed for. Do these items stay in our account or are they taken out? If I lost a file, how would I get it back. Do I need to spend the next few day D/L all those file to make more back-ups? Also, do I need to buy Bat's stuff before the dead line. I would hate to see his stuff go. If the files are taken off our purchased list, couldn't this be considered thieft, it was payed for. What about the galleries, will all the images get toasted as well? Just some crazy thoughts running through my head, while shaking in disbelieve of what all this means. It might be good for all those modeling programs. I know I'm glad I bought Shade. With Shade and Wings, I won't have a need to spend much money.

The items themselves if not in compliance, will be moved into a holding area. It should be no problem to order an account History Burn.

If you want bat's stuff and can get it -- be safe. Buy it now. Dang nabbit. I can't believe I'm saying this. Clint, when you read this you had better not be laughing or, or, or I'll come and kick you. I'm redownloading my purchases tonight and reburning them on an archive -- and then I'm going to watch themerchants I've bought from real close and see where they go and what they do. If it turns out to be rotica, well, so be it. that way, at the least, when I have a problem, I can pester them :D

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Well, anyone who's products are deemed "unsuitable" for Renderosity under the new PayPal friendly guidelines are certainly welcome to submit them at DTG Studios/Renderotica. If any of you are considering the effects this new PayPal Friendly policy may have on your products here, and are considering a need for moving some of them to a different venue, here's a reminder of some of the benefits of selling in an "Adult Items Friendly" store:

***************************** * You'll have a large audience of customers who're looking for just those types of item for their renders. * We accept non-erotic items a s well, so customers who are drawn to your stores at Renderotica will also browse and buy your non-erotic items. [People need beds, clothes, textures, furnishings etc for their "smut renders" ;)] * Exposure to a new base of customers who don't normally shop at Renderosity or elsewhere, plus a large percentage of your existing customer base from other sites who're also Renderotica/Animotions Members. * Sales exposure in two stores: Items that are not erotic specific are also eligible for upload to the Animations store at the vendor's [and store staff's] discretion, so you get additional exposure to customers who may not normally shop any of the other Poser sites except Animotions.com. * More Front Page store exposure for a longer time in our What's New section - items don't get buried as fast as they do at Renderosity. * More Frontpage exposure on the site, even for older items - we regularly include a few older items in our front page line up and our newsletter to remind people they're there. * Stringent testing and a reputation for quality store testing: if an item passes here, customers know that it functions properly. * Relatively quick testing: we shoot for a maximum of three days from the time an item is submitted for a vendor to get a Pass/Fail email from us, and a maximum of a week to 10 days from submission and the item passing to when it appears in the Store(s). Please note that those are outside maximum times for when we have a higher than normal volume load: we normally get items through testing and up well within those times. * We're not restrictive on promotional images [for items sold in our stores] posted to our gallery, nor on item credits. [We do preffer that promotional images be for items you're selling with us] * No double standards on Purchased Items vs Galleries: if you by a spiked three headed dildo or suchlike from the store, you can use it in your gallery images at Renderotica. * And we have a Courteous and Friendly Staff that will work with you in spite of having that Ironbear Character as Store Admin. ;) * Staff that works extensively with you in the rare event of a customer complaint. [Very rare event: we haven't had many in the two years I've been store/testing admin] ***************************** Feel free to make contact with me: [Ironbear] at s_barnes@direcway.com or through Diane's email at diane@renderotica.com - Ironbear DTG Studios Store Admin Renderotica.com and Animotions.com

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"If I lost a file, how would I get it back" You don't, just like stuff from past merchants who are no longer here (I have a few of those). Make Back Ups of Everything and then Back Up Your Backups (computer 101; lesson #1) "If the files are taken off our purchased list, couldn't this be considered thieft" No it's not thieft. You paid for it, you got it, if you lost it then you should learn to take better care of your stuff (George Carlin says you must have a place for All Your Stuff!) "What about the galleries, will all the images get toasted as well?" Like others have hinted/suggested; eventually. This is only the start of what will be, or the end of what might have been. Sadest thing IMO is that this will greatly hinder the creative thinking of future creations. This will inhibit the expression of the artist as they have to conform to the facist pig 'Big Daddy'. While I am not a merchant, it is things such as this why I have never tried. I will not have Anyone dictate to me what I can and can't create, what I can and can not offer. What this means to me is that I will just have to spend more time looking through many market places and independant sites to find the things I like, which will mean less and less time browsing here.

And Renderotica does stand by their sales too. Even when I had a problem downloading on my crumby dialup (darn modems) they stayed with me untill my purchase was recieved. And they got some cool fantasy, non-erotic characters there too! ;p

"* And we have a Courteous and Friendly Staff that will work with you in spite of having that Ironbear Character as Store Admin. ;)" well, that all by itself tells me that it's a store worth shopping at. endorsed by a crazy woman hmm. Better not put that up on the site, though...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Does this new policy extend to freestuff items? Do bondagewear freebies have to be deleted too? What about site links to personal sites that do have nudity in them?

RE: 96 Hades Bless, I'll endorse them too... Diane was a pleasure to deal with on the phone when I had lost all my fils.

A word of advice from someone who made a bunch of backups of my Rendo stuff a few years ago... do NOT save them as the original zip files on a multi-session CD. If at all possible, extract them all out to a dummy "runtime" folder and then burn that to the cd in a single session. You have no idea how heartbreaking it is to get to your backup zipfiles two years later and find out they're all rendered corrupt and inaccessable by the method through which you burned them to the disc. :(

All items purchased are grandfathered in, even when a merchant leaves purchases stay in a cusomers account for later use. Customers aren't going to have to worry. next the new rule states that image 2 and 3 of the promo shots allow nudity, so all those texture artists have 2 full images to display the quality of there textures or whatever they want. As stated above, Daz does it and Daz does a LOT more business than PP or Rend. Everything on Rend is time stamped, gallery entries, as well as products. So Grandfathering in isn't a big deal. Anybody that believes that Rend survives off poser sales should look at the other categories. Advertising with Software companies, marketing, flyers etc costs money and software companies pay the bills. As well as CD tutorials, and no books. Also the licencing of Bondware software of which Renderosity is a prime showcase for the software. Loosing sexy pose packs and baloon morph tits really isn't going to be that much of an effect and should it happen would probably be a bonus as it's easyer to market to non sexy related marketing venues. Merchants always have a way of selling their products. open their own store, pay their own bandwidth charges and sell away. With the new rule promo image 2 and 3 should allow them to sell here if they choose. Schools and colleges are tightning restrictions on sites students can access from school computers. Rend sells educational licenced software and haveing that avenue closed off hurts profits. As far as I can tell nobody is censoring anybody in the way of art, go create a site and post away, they are limiting how the site that they pay for is used and to me at least since they are paying the bills got to make the rules. Daz, PP, Rend, 3d commune, Rendroica etc etc etc all have terms users have to abide by to remain in business, as well as for the user to be a member. There are several online pay mthods people can use, if you cannot find a way to send money to a merchant send a good old money order or check. Rend is trying to stay afloat, PayPal trying to keep in business with international laws and restrictions, nudity on promo image #2 and #3 seem to work this issue out. I don't really see the issue. Like to add just one last thing. I do think this can be a GOOD thing too. Merchants will have to work and be creative to advertise, good marketed products and ads will rise, badly advertised products or marketed items won't make it. This could be a boon for people that render good quality advertising and could HELP some merchants. Daz's new thumbs of old products had me looking at things I hadn't seen in a while or had passed by before. Just a thought. My 2 cents, and now I have none so what do I know. Peace out.

BTW post #100 by me is just me ranting. I ain't no mechant nowhere and have no afiliations with nobody but me so word! Before I get spent. (why I'm using rapper ease I have no clue, I stop now aight?! before I say word to ya motha haha)

"even when a merchant leaves purchases stay in a cusomers account for later use. Customers aren't going to have to worry."

NOT TRUE! I have at least three items I have purchased here but the artist left and the items no longer are on my purchase list.

And one of those artists is still a 'member' her but just removed all her store items for reasons I do not know...but at that time my purchase list also removed them...

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 02:22

weird, I have 2 items in my list that are no longer sold here but are in my purchase history and have download links. Thought I remembered Clint saying that's how it worked, sorry if I was wrong on that. In my case that is how it is working as I still have links for items no longer sold here. Shrug another mystery

Mature Audiences Policy -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of, or receipt of donations for, any obscene or sexually oriented goods or services. In determining what goods or services are prohibited under the Mature Audiences Policy, PayPal will consider some or all of the following factors: Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct. Representations or descriptions of intercourse, masturbation, excretory functions, or lewd exhibition of the genitals. Dominant theme of the material or website. Literary, artistic, political, or scientific value. Safety and protection of its customers, both buyers and sellers. Medical or educational usage of the product or service. Any sexually oriented goods or services involving minors, or made to appear to involve minors, will automatically be treated as violations of the Mature Audiences Policy. PayPal will not include sexual preferences or viewpoints as a factor in determining what goods or services are prohibited under the Mature Audiences Policy. ... You and PayPal agree that the damages that PayPal will sustain as a result of the behavior outlined above will be substantial, including (without limitation) fines and other related expenses from its payment processors and service providers, but may be extremely difficult and impracticable to ascertain. In the event that you engage in such activities, then PayPal may fine you $500.00 USD and/or PayPal may take legal action against you to recover losses that are in excess of the amount fined. You acknowledge and agree that $500.00 USD is presently a reasonable minimum estimate of PayPals damages, considering all currently existing circumstances, including (without limitation) the relationship of the sum to the range of harm to PayPal that reasonably could be anticipated and the anticipation that proof of actual damages may be impractical or extremely difficult. You agree that PayPal is entitled to deduct such fines directly from any existing balance in the offending account, or any other PayPal account owned by you.

In the famous words of one so many of us have admired; "Hey Everybody, Lets Party!"

Lets all go streak through the MP in protest! And then we'll all go stand nekkid in front of PayPal untill they surrender!

He ain't rude, boogie-dy, boogie-dy
He ain't lewd, boogie-dy, boogie-dy
He's just in the mood to run in the nude
Oh yes, they call him the streak
He likes to turn the other cheek
He's always making the news
Wearin' just his tennis shoes
Guess you could call him unique...

Here he comes...look...who's that with him?
Vicky, is that you, Vicky?
What do you think you're doing?
You get your clothes on!

Vicky, where you going?
Vicky, you shameless hussy
Say it isn't so Vicky
Vicky..................

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 02:54

in post #66
wasn't saying his politics, was saying his strong religous beliefs.
the stronger the beliefs the more likely the less tolerance for nudity, as it is "sinfull"

To an extent, I'll agree. I have exceptionally strong religious beliefs, however, AND I'm something of a Prude, and yet I don't have a problem with other people making nudie pics and I would likely get burned at the stake by some of the, eh, supporters of said president -- chiefly because I'm a pretty sinful person, but also most likely just for good measure. The issues with nudity are not wholly based in religious fervor, nor are they wholly based in political partisanship. They are deeply rooted secular beliefs stemming from the social dynamics that founded the US and are perpetuated to this day by the majority of the populace of said nation -- and chiefly, that populace is religious and rather hypocritical and they outnumber us by an exceptionally sizeable margin.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

With all that tos jumping up and down lately, this step was to be foreseen: the new theocratic fascism is pushing forward. Where even I cannot see what I buy, I don't buy. I have no paypal account anymore: to get out, I had to change card as they just don't allow you to get out. Hell, you can buy weapons on e-bay, even weapons of mass distraction and uranium from Africa! I guess it's about time someone who livs in a real free country starts a site similar to R. and that we all buy from there., and show our art on that site and drop this hypocrisy once and for all. If this goes through, I won't spend another cent here!

I have tried prudent planning long enough. From now I'll be mad. (Rumi)

Well, 'Rosity just got put to last place in my list for looking for Poser stuff. If I can buy it elsewhere, I will.

good grief, anything else thats gonna go wrong here! and theres me just doing a new texture set to sell here with some poses, looks like im gonna have to find else where to seel it, bummer!!!!! Big Brother Stikes again!

In the words of DarkStarRising:
"Sadness within sadness,
Darkness within darkness,
a shadow of a form lays upon the floor,
looking at herself
looking at her own shadows of loneliness"

I have no paypal account, didn't change my card, just canceled it. I will continue to buy here. The only thing I worry about is updates. When these merchants leave will they continue to support their products and give their customers updates? I went to rotica to buy something for Miss Dina and my password didn't work. I was treated so rudely (and I still have the email to remind me not to go there if I am tempted), that I have not gone back, nor will I ever shop there, no matter who leaves and opens a store there. This is not about politics, it is about money, plain and simple. They are not forcing them on you, you have the choice to open a store elsewhere, and you have the choice to shop elsewhere. Just like a mall, you want regular items, go to Sears, or you can walk down a bit and visit Victoris's Secret. Until you own the site, even as a merchant you cannot really understand the workings of the site as you are not able to see the whole picture. If you like to shop here, then stay and shop, if not, then go. But until enough people are willing to leave and no more come to fill your place here, you can complain until you are blue in the face and it will do no good. I shop all over, and nudity doesn't bother me, fetish doesn't bother me, but I can respect the fact that it bothers other folks. It's been said many times, if you don't like it here you have the right to shop elsewhere, and open a store elsewhere. Wonder what the cut is for stores that don't use paypal. Do you have to share more or charge more since the store must pay more? I can't say since I don't run a store myself. At any rate, good luck to all who stay or choose to leave, hope you are successful in all that you do. Marque

Hmm, I wonder if poser weapons will be still sold? Is killing a poser character more preferable than showing their nipples? :-P

switch to Paystone .. they don't give a toot

I am not a merchant and do not spend a lot on Poser, but I might as well offer my two cents worth. 1. Can Renderosity not create a second 'Fetish and nude' site? 2. Can it be called an artists site if they force said artists and merchants to curb their tastes to those of the conservitives? 3. Though Renderosity is a multinational seller, it is an American company. I have fought for the rights we have as Americans and am OFFENDED by a decision that removes choices simply for the sake of profit. I do not mind a company trying to make money, but in doing so, to Hell with those of us that have been loyal customers for years. As I said, my two cents worth and though I know that no one really gives a damn what a nobody such as myself has to say, I hope that Renderosity realizes that they may very well lose two customers for every one that they gain.

ynsaen's looong post was very well thought out and made a lot of sense. It still burns me though to see large corporations dictating policy like this. I guess I'll always yearn for the "wild west" days of the net. In light of your dad being a lawyer I'll reasses my pro-lawyer killing policy. Maybe we can just hurt em... a lot?

Attached Link: http://www.alexslemonade.com/

>> 1. Can Renderosity not create a second 'Fetish and nude' site?

That is how the other one started ... they broke off from Renderosity and became 'otica.

2. Can it be called an artists site if they force said artists and merchants to curb their tastes to those of the conservitives?

That's a problem ... look at how difficult it has been to enforce what is here. It would be even MORE difficult to maintain a site that allowed SOME forms of erotica but not others. Where do you draw the line?

I have fought for the rights we have as Americans

A lot of us have ... and we are losing them one by one. The pendulum is stuck in the far right position, I'm afraid, and we have to roll with the punches.

You know that saying "When life deals you lemons, learn to make lemonade?" Our local news has been running a continuing story about a girl who found out she had cancer at the age of 4. Rather than let it get her down, she started a lemonade stand, with the idea that the proceeds would go for helping children cope with cancer. Sadly enough, the girl died about 3 months ago (at the age of 8) ... in the meantime, several "Alex's Lemonade Stand" stands have cropped up throughout the country, and their combined sales have just reached a million dollars. There is a lesson to be learned from that.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 09:50

...why not ditch PayPal and use Western Union, or another respected online payment service? Just a thought. /P

Unreal. But it's probably for the best. It was ridiculous, Rosity trying to be a "family site," while selling x-rated stuff in the MP. Deleting gallery images that might possibly maybe be sexual, while allow eye-popping banner ads. At least now they aren't being hypocrits. I gave up buying stuff at Rosity a long time ago, so if some merchants move elsewhere, it will be good for me.

I prefer to use credit cards for online shopping. I don't trust PayPal, but still have an account, for those merchants who can't take credit cards directly. I try not to use it, though. And I never keep much money in it - just in case PayPal decides to freeze my account. With credit cards, there's little risk. IME, they will refund any disputed or fraudulent charges promptly. (They are required to by law...unlike PayPal.)

But I think I will get rid of my Visa card. I'll use MasterCard and Discover instead. The Visa has become an immense PITA. Whenever I make an overseas purchase with it, they refuse payment, assuming it's fraudulent. I have to call them and tell them it's legit. In one case, their customer service rep accused me of buying porn. (I was buying Vue, direct from E-on in France.) It's ridiculous; charges made in the U.S. are more likely to be fraudulent than charges made from France. If it was Russia, I could see it, but France???

Discover never gives me any hassles. I buy overseas all the time with it, and it always goes through. And it's the only card you can use to pay for an annual PC membership at DAZ.

"But I think I will get rid of my Visa card. I'll use MasterCard and Discover instead. The Visa has become an immense PITA." Debit card or Amex, baby. I don't gots and don't needs no other. (...and this comes from a guy whose brother-in-law is a fairly big-shot market analyst for VISA.) /P

But Discover gives you cash back! I get hundreds of dollars a year back from them. (I use my Discover card whenever possible: groceries, gas, monthly ISP fees, etc.)

I refuse to use a debit card. Debit cards don't have the protections that ATM cards and credit cards have. And if there's a mistake or someone swipes it, my checks could start bouncing. A credit card is just so much easier.

I do have an Amex card that gives me vouchers for groceries at Shop-Rite. But Shop-Rite pulled out of this area, and Amex isn't widely accepted, so I rarely use it.

In one case, their customer service rep accused me of buying porn. What the heck?? That's about the craziest thing I have heard yet. smh

Attached Link: PoserPros

Oh my! I go to bed, and "all is quiet on the western front", and I wake up to this! ;p Natolii, thanks for the big recommendation :) It means the world to me that you would think so highly of us. We do try hard out at PoserPros to earn the respect, comfort, and trust you give us :) Ok folks, I'd like to only say a tiny thing or two on all this :) From the very start, when we decided to open our store, we knew we had to comply with certain standards, or we would not get to use Paypal AT ALL, nor get an affordable credit card processor. We would instead be confined to MUCH more expensive methods of payment options, which would have affected our bottom line, and thus how much we can pay our merchants and staff. We trusted our members and merchants to understand and accept our policies, and comply with them as mature grownups would, since those same policies were there for their direct finanical benefit. We pride ourselves on the best rate of staff and merchant pay out there, and I'd sure like to keep it that way :) I am happy to report that our merchants have all been gems about our standards, just gems, and have never given me a moment's grief or trouble. I could not ask for more of anyone. To remind those who would like to come to PoserPros what our policies are, I will briefly go over them. ========================================================== We have ALWAYS chosen to comply with the strict standards of Paypal and our credit card merchant account, from the start, since we anticipated that one day, if one did not choose to comply, one would be facing a sudden disaster. The ways we have chosen to comply are: *No nudity in ANY thumbnail in PoserPros Store, and the ones that link to any image that has nudity MUST say "NUDITY" in a very noticable format, such as the thumbnail we have already provided to merchants for their use. *No Nudity in any main image on PoserPros Store, and those that are too risque even if not nude, will be asked to provide a new image if necessary. *Nudity in popups is allowed so long as it is of a quite basic clinical nature, not anything too titilating. *No child or young teen nudity, period. No ifs, ands, or buts. This also includes "faeries" who appear to be very young girls. *Content itself cannot be of acts of sex. Poses of people in loving situations such as embraces, kissing, hugging, etc, but NOT engaged in sex, are usually acceptable, but yet still up to our discretion, and if necessary we will ask that changes be made to the product before we accept it. *I have always said that if we ever got any characters who were anatomically correct genitalia wise, I would not point blank turn those down, as my first character, Saluda, was that way herself. However, the caveat here is that IF either Paypal or our credit card merchant account people objected to them in any way, we would definately yank the product fast. *Ways to prevent items of a sexy nature from being yanked are to NOT illustrate the point with explicit renders. At PoserPros, customers will to a certain degree, need to trust the merchant to deliver what he says he is delivering, sight unseen, based on that merchant's reputation for good work. It is a system that works well for us. *As for Richabri's or anyone's bondage props, we have some of the milder sets, and I have let them in. They are no more than cute little leather clothes and toys as it were, not directly pornographic in nature as far as I am concerned, nor indeed, dangerous to the persons using them, if those were real persons and not 3d models. *The means by which I judge how far a prop can go are these: 1) Would it be dangerous to be used in real life, and cause harm to someone? 2) Is it just a cute stage prop or outfit for fun and atmosphere? 3) Is it designed to "penetrate" the body? If so... it does not belong on PoserPros. 4) Lastly, even the props we have let in, MUST comply with our rendering standards, which means the folks "modeling" them must be clothed, etc, and also the scenes must be fairly clinical in nature in the renders. Our site, and our store, could be classified as a VERY mild R rated site. We have been this way since the day we began, and it has been going ok that way, so we will continue, unless we were forced to change by one of our store payment solutions companies, such as Paypal and our Credit Card Company. PoserPros is not for everyone, nor can everyone's products fit into our strict policies. For those who cannot fit in for any reason at all, we would like to personally recommend Diane Thure-Griffith of Renderotica. She is a fine lady, and will treat you very well. I have known Diane for years, and if I ever get one spare moment to my name, one fine day I intend to put a few things of my own in her store. I could not recommend a better woman as far as the way she runs her site. If anyone needs to speak to us on merchanting matters at PoserPros, please write to: storeadmin@poserpros This will bring your mail to all admins, where someone will help you immediately :) Do NOT write to me directly, since many days, and even weeks, I am naught but a ghost in the machine due to health issues. ======================================================= Ok, just one more comment then I will clear on out of everyone's way. Someone said this: {{{{{Love him or hate him, clint has no problem making decisions. he does need to back off a bit sometimes when he takes heat for them and listen instead of just crossing his arms and glaring with sarcasm, but generally he tries his damndest...And gets little credit. Which is wrong. Folks at Poser Pros make a call and it's all sweetness and light. Here they are evil incarnate.}}}}} Clint (and Spike also) are both good men (yeah yeah, I know, Spike's name did not yet come up, just thought I'd mention it to you that he is good too). I walk in the SAME shoes as both of them do... believe it or not ;) We all are faced with the exact same issues, and decisions that we must make on a day to day basis. In fact, with only the rarest of occassions, the choices those two men, and I make, are the exact same when presented with the same set of choices and circumstances. I respect, and admire both. I love Clint very very much, and know that he always does the best he can under trying circumstances. When judging Clint and Spike, and all "admins" here, please remember that they are not the owners of this business nor this site, and must, to a certain degree, do what they are told and what the owners wish them to do. It is not an easy job for them, anymore than the same work could be easy for my own beloved Guarie who even moreso than me, walks miles and miles in their shoes. I mean, can you imagine! Trying to keep me happy!!!!;p Or... trying to keep Tammy and Timmy Choate happy. Just thought I might bring that up. Food for thought, and all that.

For all Americans out there, this is what happens when "our wonderful Intelligent" president gets re-elected again. wow I'm surprised I was able to type that with a straight face I for one don't buy the more "adult" stuff, but it seems to me it my first amendment right to be able to if I am over 18. I just received a new Visa in the mail, I might be cancelling it. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Beth Ps to all the conservatives out there..God you guys really have a problem!!!!

Ya know. I can actually see the point of the new rules concerning nudity, (Page 2 and 3 isn't really a hardship) and the removal of really sex geared stuff (Bondage gear.)because as others have said their policies before were kinda hippocritical.

I have a VERY large problem with the "This much of the breast must be covered" BS, though. I mean that is just puritainical to the extreme. If it is legal to walk on the beach in a bikini there is no way in HELL it shouldn't be ok to see one in a thumbnail. Only the most prudish dimwits should be offended by that.

I like shopping here and I don't want some merchants to go away so I have an idea how they might be able to get around the rule with revealing outfits.

How about someone could make a V3/steph/whatever Mannequin, and provide it for free for all to use. It would be a headless body with no anatomical features, in a solid non skin-like color that no idiot would ever confuse for a person. (Nevermind they are just polygons anyway.) You could use this for thumbnails, and first page, then show the real shots on pages 2 and 3.

whaddaya think?

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 11:16

Why do i get the feeling that this anouncement is just the thin end of what will be a very thick wedge? Hope i'm wrong but... Jack

Can we pin this on Janet Jackson and her ugly little boob? Seems to me that is when the ultra conservatism took root.

The desire for this has been there since 2000 (actually, since the impeachment hearings) ... the football game was the final impetus for action.

Attached Link: http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/articlle2312.htm

Hmmm ... lemur01, perhaps you're right ...

I can't believe there are those who blame this on Bush getting elected. Give me a break. Marque

Not so much Bush being re-elected, but as to how far the "morality" pendulum has swung since the impeachment hearings. We also seem to be losing an awful lot of freedoms in the interest of "security." That was the point.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 12:58

If anything Bush being elected is more a symptom of larger problems in the culture. I mean a majority of the people actually fell for his BS. -_-

Even if Gore had been elected in 2000 it probably would be just as bad, since his running mate and wife were both "Moral crusader" types.

Anyway politics should stay out of this.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 13:03

Anyway politics should stay out of this. I agree, and I did have second thoughts about posting what I did. This is all part of a bigger problem, and it is not going to be solved by controlling what people can or cannot buy with a credit card.

You can't keep politics out of this, so long as the US is drifting in the direction of Christian fundamentalists having a big say in dictating policy. I fear this is symptomatic of something much larger, and those sites that are rubbing their hands in glee at taking over much of Renderosity's business may be laughing on the other side of their faces in due course.

Phantast, Might I just point out if I may, that I do not see anyone laughing in glee? AFAIK in fact, other than Renderotica which is where material of this nature should RIGHTLY go, none of us can even accept this material that is being purged due to LONGTIME standards already in place in our stores. It is in fact, Rosity that is changing it's standards of acceptance, not anyone else at all.

Laughing in glee? Umm, well okay, I did. Sorry. I just had to. I also laughed this weekend at this really naive guy who thought that he could take his green-dot ski abilities onto a triple black-diamond mogul slope. We tried to warn 'im... but nooooooo - he just had to prove himself. I had friggin' tears coming out of my eyes for an hour after that, and my stomach cramped a little too. Does that make me a bad person? /P

Renderosity has frequently stated that it wanted to be a "family friendly" site. That is no secret. Many have argued that it truly cannot be considered "family friendly" if it carries adult-themed products in its store. At least, now, the same rules apply across the board. This does have to do with their desire to be a family friendly site. It also has to do with Paypal/Visa's restrictions, which ARE part of an even larger picture. We really can't say there is only ONE reason this is happening.

P- yes. It does. but did you take pictures? I wanna seee!

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

P- Absolutely, horrible. And unless you produce the picture of the poor guy with one ski gone and the other halfway up his behind, and his goggles gone cock-eyed, you will forever be tarnished in my eye. ;)

Sorry... I didn't want to break my camera, so it stayed in the Jeep :(

The corollary between him and the "Family Friendly" policy promoted in these parts by the PTB is rather striking, though...

/P

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 14:24

Well I knew I'd get in trouble... They banned me. Bye y'all

Nerd

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 14:57

No surprise. Huggs, Nerd!

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

"Well I knew I'd get in trouble... They banned me" Now that's obscene! Crap.

Attached Link: Products to be removed from the Market Place by insomniaworks-The3dZone-Khrys

I have posted an anouncement about products to be discontinued by the Team of insomniaworks-The3dZone-Khrys at the attached link, thank you.

Mr. Insomnia, I really, really, REALLY hope they're not going to remove anything else. I have the Catsuit with Attitude on my wishlist and plan to purchase it this holiday.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 15:02

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Edit: Man, that is a pisser that they're banning Nerd for something the management should have done themselves. They always kill the messenger don't they? Eep, this thread went and doubled while I had my back turned! (And was unconscious...)

Firstly, I'd like to say that I think Renderotica's a great site and outlet for people who produce adult oriented art, and I've been a member there myself for a long time now.

However, saying that everyone who makes products that will be banned under this new policy can just move then to R'otica and 'all is well' just isn't true. While sex sells, and no one's going to deny that, people WILL deny that they're interested in buying. A large percentage of people who purchase anything sexually oriented, or watch porn, or make naughty pictures wouldn't want to broadcast that publicly. (Anybody who didn't see the connection to the 2000 impeachment now might see that little lightbulb above their head.)

At Renderosity folks can grab their cutesy cartoon bunnies, a snazzy sports car, AND that latex bustier with nipple clamps and a dozen poses. If they had to go to a specifically adult oriented site to buy that last set, do you think they would? Some yes, but others no.

The fact of the matter is that merchants will never be able to earn the amount of revenue they got from Renderosity at any adults-only site. I know I'm not a merchant, but I've been preparing to make that leap for a long time... and I've done my homework. ;)

I don't think that customers are going to be affected by this nearly as much as the merchants are, and by making this decision it's pretty clear to me that Renderosity doesn't value their merchant base as much as they should.

• Molly

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 15:07

I'm hyperventilating, OK? I feel faint. I'm worried that artists might pull ALL of their stuff from R'sity because they feel offended that one of their items is deleted!

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Attached Link: Products to be removed from the Market Place by insomniaworks-The3dZone-Khrys

Sarte: Don't misunderstand, I don't want to remove items the items posted in the list. LoL, you know that isn't the case at all. I want to keep them here. I love Renderosity and I am very loyal to them. Only the items listed in the link will be effected by the forced removal. Fashionably_Late: Yes, I may have to make a real change in what I choose to model in the future. I don't expect the sales in any adult site to really compensate for the work involved in building these items. marty

Sheesh, just bought one outfit and was going to stock up on some more items, but after Nerd got banned it would seem wiser not to reward renderosity in any kind of way for making this desicision. Seems to me getting new pay pal customers is more important than their exsisting ones as well as some of there merchants. Thanks for saving me that money Renderosity, I am sure some pay pal customer will come along and make up for it.

okay now, i didn't read the whole of this string however, here are my 2 cents worth for whatever they're worth. while yes, paypal is notorious for freezing accounts and such? why not go through another company to handle said accounts? i closed my paypal account a long time ago due to the same issues that most (and i've read extensive forums on this very same issue) are experiencing with paypal. secondly, just who has the right to tell anyone in a forum such as renderosity that they cannot submit, say, questionable material? personally, i take a little time in not posting nudity and the like even though this site is within the interest of art. that does not mean that everyone has to follow my own set of standards. soooo we'll be losing a great bit of resource material over what paypal wants renderosity to do? is that right of someone else telling another party to ban or delete "questionable material" because of their own set of rules? no. its not right. no one, i don't care who they believe themselves to be, has the right to tell another what to post, where to post it, or in what context. thats why our constitution is in place to begin with. what does that come under, freedom of expression? freedom of speech? so what, we have yet one more thing taken away from us due to the "policies" of another? personally i think it sucks and perhaps the higher powers that be within a wonderful site that gives both merchants and customers a vast amount of choices should seek another to handle they're accounts before paypal also restricts theirs like they've done to countless others without so much as a "bite me" and without explanation. sorry, yes, i'm venting. i think it sucks.

Man, that is a pisser that they're banning Nerd for something the management should have done themselves. They always kill the messenger don't they? The administration had planned an announcement of this on their own. Nerd jumped the gun -- and broke the Merchant's Code of Conduct in the process. I did, and was banned from the merchant forum for my efforts. You pay a price for speaking your mind -- always. Moreso in places where you cannot. "I'm hyperventilating, OK? I feel faint. I'm worried that artists might pull ALL of their stuff from R'sity because they feel offended that one of their items is deleted! " Get a paperbag and hold on. Some artists may. Most won't. Because the policies that are going into place are no different from Poser Pro's policies. And are less restrictive thatn DAZ's. And both of those sites are doing ok. "While sex sells, and no one's going to deny that, people WILL deny that they're interested in buying. A large percentage of people who purchase anything sexually oriented, or watch porn, or make naughty pictures wouldn't want to broadcast that publicly." Well said. However, they will go to renderotica. Most of the folks I've known make a trip there at least once, and they do have stuff that's useful beyond the pornographic and even pornographic stuff that's useful outside of it. What, you think Dina can only be used for sexual imagery?

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I was sick to death of all the tits staring at me in the marketplace anyway. Perhaps now we'll see some merchants put a bit of effort into their thumbs instead of using the 'sex sells' theory :) Hey ysaen, I've been out of the merchant forum for so long it's ridiculous. And they've never actually told me why I'm not allowed in there anymore shakes head If I need to know anything about merchant policies I have to write and ask :/

Ugh. Dina needs plastic surgery.

And yup - I shop at R'otica, no shame in saying it. Diane's good people, and so is Ironbear; got nothing but love for my fellow pervs out yonder.

I'm just curious to see if Tim's A/R department can take the punishment that he's about to inflict on it...

/P

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 15:31

" I was sick to death of all the tits staring at me in the marketplace anyway." Tits I don't mind 'tall... it's the plastic and/or inflated-looking ones that turn me off. Yuck. /P

"I'm just curious to see if Tim's A/R department can take the punishment that he's about to inflict on it..." He's actually got a department? Wow, I thought it was just a couple of folks.... And Xena -- c'mon, you know that any little lady who speaks her mind 'round these parts is gonna get kicked out to the kitchen....

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

it's the plastic and/or inflated-looking ones that turn me off hehehehe ... three dials required ... big, ultra-big, and gargantuan.

If you have a good product, it's going to sell, even if you don't shove a huge set of boobies in the customers face :)

ynsaen - LOL We opinionated gals aren't real popular round these parts ;)

.

Nancy Deer With Horns
Deer With Horns Native American Indian Site

" If you have a good product, it's going to sell, even if you don't shove a huge set of boobies in the customers face " Yup - I've always subscribed to the "more than a mouthful is a waste" club in the chest department... dunno, but that coupled with a nice pair of legs does more than a pair of zepplins docked on some chick's ribcage ever will... My dear ynsaen, I dunno if he has one or not, but I suspect that things are gonna be slightly painful once the Titty Patrol gets serious. /P

...err, this is gonna hit Free Stuff too, innit? /P

ERK! That would be bad! VERY VERY BAD! I get 95% of my stuff from free stuff!

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

More than likely, Pengy 8-)

Just for grins, I did a search in the marketplace to see how this would impact the marketplace ...

An All Poser search came to about 6200 hits Victoria 2525 hits
V3 1311 hits
Vicky 773 hits

as compared to

Sex 366 hits
Fetish 225 hits
Boobs 7 hits

My rationale is this ... seeing as Victoria is, no doubt, the most heavily supported character, in all of her incarnations, that might be the "top line" search result.

"Sex" would probably be the top search term for adult oriented products.

Going by these results, it looks like about 5-15% of the marketplace will be affected.

Message edited on: 11/16/2004 16:07

err, 5-15% of some very heavily-selling products, no less. Man, that IS gonna hurt. /P

Yes, and no ... Costs to maintain the site will go down as a result (less bandwidth for products and gallery images) ... so you can't say it will ALL be a loss. And as someone else has pointed out, other Poser sites have the same, if not more stringent, policies and they aren't doing too bad. 8-)

Dunno; they factor in bandwidth for that stuff (at least they should've), and I've seen some of that haul in some serious cash. Heavy-sellers eat more packets, but the profit is usually big enough to cover for the cost of displaying, adverting and storing the crap items. /P

I shop at Rotica, and I'm not ashamed of it. Heck, everything I've bought at Rotica would be acceptable here at Rosity, too. It's not like they only sell x-rated stuff there. My last Rotica purchase was Coreart's cool baseball uniforms.

I have over 380 items valued at over $4,300 sitting in my wishlist/cart here. I was planning on buying at least half of them over the next 6 months. I have similar carts at DAZ, Poserpros and Runtime DNA. I spend a lot on Poser related items. But I guess most of my Renderosity items are just going to sit. And if this policy comes in, I will either contact the artists directly or buy at other sites carrying the goods.
The same probably holds true for many other high-spending customers!

When a bank dictates what a retailer can and cannot sell it is time to change banks. Look along the street, there are many that will gladly take your custom.

Mmmmm.. does the parent company here own stock in Paypal or vice versa?

U.S. morals being imposed on the rest of the world. That's the simple answer here. That's not OT - and it's not political. Just stating the obvious. :] Fish

Mehndi wrote: "Might I just point out if I may, that I do not see anyone laughing in glee?" Not necessarily here.

"We opinionated gals aren't real popular round these parts ;) " Xena, I'm afraid I don't know you but as far as ynsaen... I think she's the coolest! I like women who think for themselves! (even if I don't agree with what they think)

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

wait a sec? You don't know Xena? Oi!!! Must go and seek her out -- great stuff! lol and ya gots me blushin, too!

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I wonder if I'll continue to see "2000+ surfers currently online" register at the top of my screen after Nov. 22nd?

Who knows? It's possible that the browsing number will get larger, rather than smaller.

"G" movies, on the average, make a lot more money than do "R" movies. And "G" movies tend to draw far larger audiences.

((In fact, The Matrix Reloaded was the first-ever R-rated film to make it into the top 20 money-making movies of all time.))

---

I like this site. It keeps changing all of the time -- and it's a far cry from what it was back when I first aquired the Poser habit. But I still like it.

Whatever products the admins/site owners choose to sell in the MP is entirely up to them. Likewise -- my purchasing decisions are entirely up to me.

Short term, this will no doubt hurt. Long term......how will this affect the bottom line? I wouldn't venture to guess.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

'Short term, this will no doubt hurt. Long term......how will this affect the bottom line? I wouldn't venture to guess. ' I agree with you on that but I'd rather not be put into the position of having to guess - I'm definitely doing ok now and I'd much prefer it to stay that way :)

Its a very sad thing to see this happening here. I was not aware of these things regarding Paypal and Visa. I only use Paypal for Ebay. And the reason I have a Paypal account is that I am a merchant at 3Dcommune and they set me up with a Paypal account for payment purposes. I'm sad to see that Rocity will be yanking a lot of stuff from the store in order to comply with these terms (and I agree that a bank should not be able to dictate what you can do with your money). I buy a lot of fetish and fantasy clothing because I do a lot of art that's like Olivia or Royo (two of my favorite artists). And if the Marketplace doesn't carry a lot of the items that I would buy then the Marketplace isn't going to get much of my money. I am now considering what to do about my Paypal account and the Visa card that I have. Unfortunately, Paypal and Ebay go together for ease of use (and they are now basically the same company). I am also very sorry to hear that Nerd has been banned. He's one of the artists I've known for ages from back just before the change over to the Renderosity name from the old Poser Forum. Sad sad to see. sigh Well, I'm off to buy a copy of the Chronicles of Riddick at the video store and will check back into this mess later on. Liz

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

shakes Bobasaur's hand Pleased ta meecha :) I'm the crazy Aussie chick who doesn't hang around R'osity much anymore ;) Liz, CoR is worth buying :D I initially opened my Paypal account for the very same reason!

Nerd may have been banned from the Merchant Forum only (for disclosing private information, including quoting the letter), or he may have been site-banned for a temporary period of time for words or acts undertaken in that Merchant Forum, or he may have been perma-banned. But that last is very drastic and if you read the TOS, the steps taken are clear... and the warnings usually happen over time. I'll miss him if he indeed perma-banned. He does have his own site and store and has been enough of a presence that we'll know where to find him. :sigh: Meanwhile, I'll continue to use PayPal when I shop online. I don't buy torture chambers or bondage gear or hentai set-ups so the merchants I buy from are probably not going to be affected much. Merchants who sell textures will have to be a bit more careful and creative, but if the head is on the first page and the full body is on the second and third, I should be able to make an informed decision as to quality. Carolly

I just don't like the idea of Paypal having control over what I can buy online just because they can strongarm sites like Renderosity into following their orders. I'm disappointed in Renderosity for caving in and letting someone else (who has no legal authority to do so, merely the threat of no longer providing service) determine what the policies of this site will be.

Renderosity didn't cave. They decided to appeal to a larger market.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

There is a simple solution. Sell and buy your things at Renderotica.

Just curious.....why do people keep cash in their accounts with Paypal anyway??? I don't have any cash in my account. When I have to use paypal (to purchase my annual membership to DAZ Platinum club, buy from SAM's 3d, etc), I use my credit card to pay for the items. I've never been told I have to have cash in my account and never would. And now.....here are two good H. L. Mencken quotes: "Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy." and..... "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." Not sure if the later was actually a direct quote or not, but is being circulated via email and a lot of blogs throughout Jesus Land and the United States of Canada :) I think it's a terrific quote even if it wasn't said precisely this way by Mencken! As for Rendo.....whatever will be, will be....

Sandoppe... Transaction charges. If you're making small purchases, it may be cheaper to make one transfer between your bank account and your paypal account to cover several purchases. If you're buying and selling, why remove the money from Paypal at all? But that logic now has to take in the potential cost of Paypal being bloody-minded.

The only thing I use Paypal for is to make purchases at sites that do not have their own credit card payment systems. I've never been charged for any transaction on any credit card purchase I make through Paypal and I really don't want Paypal to have access to anything at my bank :) Apparently my use of Paypal is way different than the way others use it. Edit: But then I don't sell items and I think your response was more related to why you and others might keep money in an account at Paypal. Thought I'd better clarify my response to your response! It's getting late....and I probably shouldn't be responding to anything when I'm tired :)

Message edited on: 11/17/2004 01:54

sandoppe, My PayPal account actually is a Money Market account which pays much better interest (1.6%) than my bank account, so I don't lose anything by keeping a few spare dollars there. I don't do instant transfers, but allow the bank to spend the 3-4 days to move money, thus saving the wire fees. It means planning ahead, but I only spend money that I have budgeted and moved over for that purpose. For example, I knew that there would be an annual sale at RDNA so moved some money and waited. There's a few dollars left, and it can sit there until the next time I need to make a purchase. In 3 years the system has worked well. Carolly

hmmm.... enough for an island floating around there, carolly? I mean, heck, ya might need someplace to test nuclear devices for the next killing spree.....

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Actually, I was thinking about that island... there is an island setting in the future (I've got the sketched-out scene involving a mermaid, a sea serpent and "the old shell game"... sort of like playing chess with dragons except the loser doesn't get eaten). I was going to do the island in Bryce, but if I can do it all within one program it would be much better than trying to pose and port figures. BTW, all my nuclear devices are tested in deep space... how do you think I got all these pretty asteroid belts? Carolly

Attached Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/forums/showthread.php?fid=6&tid=1529&old_block=0

*I really don't want Paypal to have access to anything at my bank :)*

I don't, either, but PayPal these days won't let you do much unless you attach a bank account to your PayPal account. Which opens up your bank account for abuse. I sweep the money from my PayPal account frequently, so they can't freeze it. But actually, they can take as much money as they want from my bank account, whenever they want. And any bank account info you give them, they keep forever. Even if you later remove the account, it's still in their computer system, where their employees have access to it. (PayPal employees are a big part of the problem. They are not held to the standards that bank employees are, and internal fraud is a big problem.)

... sort of like playing chess with dragons except the loser doesn't get eaten

But ... but ... that's the best part of the whole game!

Bookmark & censure

Stupidity also evolves!

At the Computer - Rustling through Poser CD Collection and mumbling Where in the hell did I put that Photoshop sugar & spice and everything is nice filter!?

Message edited on: 11/17/2004 15:42

Try under "Rose Tinted" macmullen. :0)

Ahhhh You were righT! Rose tinted it was! Lol - and along aside my Care Bear textures pack.

and along aside my Care Bear textures pack Now THAT is just plain scary! LOL

:-)

timid wrote: "no one, i don't care who they believe themselves to be, has the right to tell another what to post, where to post it, or in what context. thats why our constitution is in place to begin with. what does that come under, freedom of expression? freedom of speech? so what, we have yet one more thing taken away from us due to the "policies" of another?" Where private companies are involved, they have the right to do whatever they like with other people's "freedom of expression". I'm glad Renderosity is making moves to address the hypocritical aspects of their store and galleries. If they aim to be family-oriented, this latest move was necessary. It's not like Poser buyers and merchants don't have another very viable option (Renderotica). When it comes to adult-oriented stuff, I think it's generally a good idea to keep it separate from the stuff I'd want my children viewing. This goes for the local newsagents as much as it does for an internet site. I'm glad that adult magazines come in plastic wrappers. I'm glad that dildo's aren't sold in Toys R Us. It's unfortunate that R'osity is removing the lot rather than, say, creating an adult area, because they can only lose money as a result. For those nervous about shopping at Renderotica, I once bought some Karanta candle textures there (soooo erotic!?!) and the telltale name "Renderotica" didn't appear on my Visa statement.

Thrallord where are you?

Stupidity also evolves!

Just what I was thinking Kawecki ;)

"I am extraordinarily patient, provided I get my own way in the end" - Margaret Thatcher 1989

Just when I started to look around again I find this, ah well. Back I go. Sod paypal, if I can't pay with (only) a credit card then I'm not paying period.

Why is it thre poodle always ends up at the end of the Congo line?

I have no idea, clue me :P

There is a serious debate concerning viable alternatives to PayPal just starting over at Renderotica. Why not go and put in your two cents?

Coming from austria, I see a lot of parallel lines to our history - 60 years ago. Its not only the speeches of President Bush, who uses the same words and sentences like another leader with a funny small beard; its also the movement of "Entartete Kunst" (degenerated art) of the nazi-system; today the vassals dont wear brown uniforms, but maybe brown suits. Sorry folks, the world doesnt need your moralized education. It would be better to concentrate the energy on reducing analphabetism, violence and poverty in a - so called - western civilization.