After E-On who wants to sell us its products at the same price in Euro that they are in US dollars, now it's Curious Labs who try to do the same. If you get to their store, you'll see a book a 29$. Don't do what I have done : don't click on "change currency", because from then on the same book would cost you 29 Euros, which is a 30% increase in cost for a single click !!! If you really want to buy, then buy it in dollars. There is absolutely no justification for this plain attempt at screwing up people. The transport fees are just the same. Who do they think we are ?

well, maybe the web designer doesn't understand currency..it could happen..the rate changes hourly, so obviously they haven't thought things through..I've noticed that Europeans pay a lot more for all software (I was in England, and saw Wordperfect 5.2 [ok, this was a long time ago..;)] for about the equivalent of $500, while it's $250 in the US..)
It's a good point, if you can arrange dollar payments (managed to do it with credit cards once in gay Paree'..;) that'd be the way to go..

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

I usually pay through my credit card, in USD. But, in their store, I only see the prices in Euros, now that I have switched from dollars to Euros. And I very much doubt it is an error : this is becoming a trend. What would be surprising is the keeping of these price lists if the USD should ever rise up above the 1/1 parity with the Euro...

Yeah, that would be interesting. When the euro first came out, it was worth less than a dollar. If that became true again, would they change their pricing policy?

Not that I think a stronger dollar is likely time soon, with our staggering budget and trade deficits, which will probably increase (a lot) before they decrease...

Sad thing is that when the $:Euro was the other way around, European stores tried the same crap! Just bad business all around!

http://schuetzenpowder.com/sigs.jpg

nope, bush is a great president, his policies are fantastic... for Canada. for the us he is a nightmare.

Uh-Oh... This post is taking a much traveled route... What about staying on topic ? I've posted an e-mail on CL's site about their price policies. I'll keep you informed.

I've noticed at DAZ that when they total up my sale and deduct my PC savings, I then click on PayPal just to get an order number (not that I'd EVER actualy pay via PayPal but it's the only way to get an order number) and guess what, EVERY time PayPal REMOVES some or all of my PC and/or other vouchers and give a higher total!!
EVERYTIME PayPal has done this ever since DAZ stopped having a option to "Pay by Check or MO".

It's buyer beware when using automated system like currency converters and/or PayPal, do your own math and if their's isn't write then make it right and only send the Valid amount.

P.S.
I've tried bringing this up in DAZ's forums a few times and have been ignored everytime

Message edited on: 11/21/2004 11:09

Igohigh: The DAZ forums are very much a waste of time once someone deviates from 'how do I apply this texture on V3' type of questions. Not all of the Europe countries have changed to the Euro! I generally find that buying direct from a US site works out financially better when tax and exchange rates are taken into account.

Compiler, Have you tried changing the currency back to dollars? Works for me in both American & Global Stores. Buying from Global store I get choice of Pounds or Euros (live in UK) & currently Curious Labs' software is slightly cheaper if I buy in Pounds & not USD!! Adrian

Ihave not the choice : I can only choose between pounds and euros...

The DAZ forums are not the place to go with a serious problem as its a well known fact that they will ignore you or even delete threads that are critical of them at times if it doesn't draw a lot of immediate follow ups.Even with that,they leave flattering threads for quite some time but seem to think people won't remember the ones critical of them when they are deleted lol.Bad business censoring your threads guys...shows you haven't got the balls that rosity and most other sites do where they might close a thread but not delete it!!

As for the problem,there has always been a currency exchange problem in international trade and many businesses are reporting problems converting the Euro dollar here.But I would suspect that your grievence could be based in fact as some companies might try to screw you over just because there are some reported issues...question is,how many other Europeans have had this happen to them as until there are more this will be an isolated matter and thus could be an honest mistake.

Besides lol,the way our economy is going with Bush spending hundreds of billions in these foreign wars nobody wants,ticking off our foreign trade partners and causing more unemployment...lol,the dollar will soon be worth less than the peso;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

I have no doubt you guys all have legit grievances, and that you can't air them with CL or Daz or Paypal, but threads like this put Renderosity in jeopardy as the possible target of a libel suit by any of those parties. Of course, it's just their luck that such threads tend to appear on a day when they're all off work.

I agree that a topic with such an inflamatory word in it and a thread with a lot of trashing of companies will soon be deleted by Renderosity. I also have written a very devastating response to some of the European whining in this thread. I won't post it here. write to me if you want to read it. john@jrdonohue.com ::::: Opera :::::

Armorbeast, Your DAZ-bashing post would be more credible if you could give an example of just ONE thread which DAZ has deleted because it's critical of them. DAZ does NOT delete threads simply because they don't agree with what's said in them. And as for Becco's little dig . . . well, we all know he's a reknowned DAZ-basher. Don't you people have lives? mac

Someone pointed that this post might put Renderosity in jeopardy. Not wishing this to happen, I'd like to point this thread to the mods so that they can make a judgement. After all, this is a moderated forum, and moderators are absolutely free to delete this thread if they feel like it. I don't see where it violates the TOS, but I'm not the one to judge. BTW, it seems that there is no shortage of people able and willing to judge others and others' actions.

As for Daz Removing controversial threads, Ynsean posted one and it remained fine. Plus there's another long one basically telling Daz what's wrong about their website update and implimentation where I said they needed to fire their web team if they did not test the server on a disgnated test server... Post is still there. I'm not shy about telling them they need to improve things, it's all in the way you tell them.

My spelling????? Huh??? mac

Compiler's original post is not in violation of TOS, and nor are most of the others. Compiler has a genuine reason for posting and alerting other European customers to this disparity in prices. Other posters to this thread are starting to verge towards personal attacks. Please cool it down, folks, and discuss issues, not people. Thank you. Karen Poser Coordinator

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

By the way: being in the UK, I thought I'd try this out. The CL web store only gives me the option of either Euros or GBP, so I'm guessing their site sniffs your IP to see what currency to offer you. I currently get a much better deal in GBP than in Euros - Poser5 is priced at 115 or 209E. But 115 is only approx 169E, a difference of almost 20%.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Apologies for any personal attacks. I generally try to stay out of the mud around here. I come here to learn and help other users. But when I see blatant attacks for no good reason, I get slightly irked. I should know better. mac

Well first let me say to Maclean,I have had one of my own threads there wiped clean and two more where I answered pm's alerting me that a reply had been made (weeks late of course) only to find them gone as well...not even a header.I have my own site and can tell you that admin have authority to do this and it doesn't have to be the whole team,just one over zealous admin.When a mod does it you'll usually still have a header cause they generally don't have authority to do a total delete plus the site can set threads to erase in a certain number of days without a reply.So to ask me to point you to the thread which I stated does not exist is a bit off when there have been others here and on DAZ itself who have asked what happened to threads they were watching.

As for your point on Becco...ummm,are you trying to say that every post on DAZ recieves a reply~I mean heck,thats all he said and you more or less redressed him as a known DAZ basher??He's 100% correct...they do ignore posts over there but they do it everywhere else too,so you were the one in error calling him a DAZ basher for that reason.

But after seeing your apology and how its not an apology at all let me say this...I find people loyal to DAZ over here bashing rosity and attacking people for saying anything negative about DAZ "for no good reason".Explain why its ok to bash rosity but not ok to bash DAZ??My criticism of DAZ is the only way I get them to notice,I try being nice in raising a problem and get ignored...I smash their foot with a hammer and they at least notice.

DAZ has one of the worst records for mistakes of all the sites...but I'll address two key issues to validate my point.DAZ has a tendency to put out what seem to be half finished company products or products that don't seem to have gone through quality control...examples of this of late are the Big Cats and Mil Horse but they're not the only ones.They don't seem to have the same problem with their brokered products which have either already been tested for other sites or the creators have done extensive beta testing on their own...so why are the products DAZ itself creates flawed?The second issue is their "exclusive" Platinum Club which they have already opened to everyone twice this year...I have several friends who are furious about this because they bought the annual membership for exclusive access to these items~why pay that much money only to have everyone be given free access two or three times a year.

These comments are not libelous nor are they untrue...I also come in here to learn and to help others.But I also feel free to voice my opinions here without being harassed or told I am wrong to make them because someone thinks they're untrue but doesn't make the effort to prove it before stating that assumption.

I for one would have first addressed compilers foul language in the title thread header lol,would seem to me he would be far more likely to get rosity in trouble with that remark than any other comment but you totally ignored that...it was the mention of DAZ that fueled all the concern when its Curious Labs who may have been libelled here if anyone~no concern for rosity there though lol.

Sorry for the long winded reply Karen but I was challenged by Maclean and don't think the apology sufficed to let the remarks slide unchallenged.I am not a DAZ basher...at least not as you might think.My criticism of DAZ is to make them realise that we the consumer expect them to conduct themselves better...they won't listen when you try to be nice and often will promise it won't happen again (as in the Mil Horse) only to do it again (Big Cats) proving they were not being honest.There was no excuse for the Big Cats to be put out like they were and I did address it in their forums as did others...and very few were satisfied with the response.How do I know,because I sent them pm's asking if they believed what they were told and they said no...pure and simple,I followed up.

Again sorry...was irked by the apology stating blatant attacks when I was the primary recipient of the earlier comment the apology addressed and as you see,my replys in such a matter are never brief.These are my opinions and to Karen I apologise since she is our gracious host of the moment...and to Maclean I also apologise,this is not personal with you save to say you addressed my comment with somewhat of a challenge and then followed by stating how you were angered that we bashed DAZ~maybe I bashed them with reason but not Becco,your address of him was totally wrong.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Armorbeast, If an apology isn't good enough, you'll just have to live with it. mac

Yes, Maclean sometimes has selective vision - my original post was supporting what the previous postee had written about problems not being attended to by DAZ and I also resonded to the topic. Not always are we satisfied with the content of a response but when ANY company chooses NOT to give any response then, to me, it is disgraceful disreguard for its customers concerns. Maclain should really be getting anoyed about how DAZ's moderators, at times, treat customers with apparent contempt. Step out the rose garden Maclain and you will find I'm not the only one that shares similar views.

Yeah, becco. You're right. Whatever. mac PS I see you deleted your post with the spelling reference. LOL.

I'll ask you nicely... please don't put the word fuck in the subject line again. Next time the whole thread will just get deleted. This one still may and that will be the reason why - I'm not sure how site Admin will feel about this staying in a family friendly forum because of that word. Apart from one personal attack which has been removed from this thread, as mod I certainly don't have a problem with the topic but I'm VERY unimpressed with the subject line. Just keep the bashing about generalities or companies with some reason behind it & NOT about individuals please. note: Mods (whichever site they are on) ARE groups of individuals & bashing them is a personal attack. Shoshanna ps. As a member - I'm a Brit so it cost me more than I thought it should to buy Poser 5. Very annoying when you purchase a downloadable version for nearly twice what the boxed version was going for in the states at the time. But nobody made me buy it - I could have just stuck with Poser 4.

shoshanna, If you deleted becco's post, than I apologise to him. I thought he did it. Re poser 5 - I also paid the european price for it. My decision. I wanted it. I bought it. mac

Well I sent Karen a note regarding my own comment out of respect...and Maclean,I saw no apology in stating you try to stay out of the mud around here and get irked by blatant attacks for no good reason while you are apologising for a personal attack you yourself made in the process.You brought your own mud and threw it too. Becco,I have a term for that by calling them DAZ dead heads...generally though if I offend them I'll contact them personally to explain and in one on one conversation most realise they are just a bit too protective of DAZ and even find the name humorous...kinda like the Grateful Dead lol.But there are some who would continue to defend DAZ no matter what mistake was made or how many people feel like they were screwed over...they won't listen.But this is rosity,we are free to speak here without being harassed for it...so long as we don't cross the line with lies and enough mudslinging to make Presidential candidates green with envy;) DAZ has serious issues that need addressed and if they won't let us address them there without the DAZ faithful trying to shout you down or insult you for even the slightest critique of DAZ...we should be allowed to do it elsewhere when the facts we comment about are true. Anyhow...sorry we got this topic turned in the wrong direction~get back on topic and no more addressing this ok as I'll just return to defend myself~the buck should stop here and my promise to Karen is I will stop if this thread goes back to the original topic:) Truly sorry Karen and thanks Shoshanna for stepping in...I am truly sorry for being a part of this to this degree and lol,I see you saw my point about the thread title lol...can understand compilers anger though but noticed that if anything on this thread would get you guys in trouble that would be it~

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Guilty as charged maclean - I deleted the post. On the plus side of the exchange rate problem, it does mean that everything else for Poser is cheap :-) Shanna

Can I apologise too? (I don't know what for, but it seems to be in fashion. I just wanted to keep up.) Cheers, Diolma

Can't the mods edit the subject line and asterisk out the offending word without obliterating the entire thread?

Unfortunately I can't edit the subject line in a post so the only way to remove it is to delete the entire thread from the forum. Shanna.

LOL@diolma. Fun, isn't it? mac

Well I didn't know that Shoshanna...my little site allows me to edit anything upon request or if I see the need for a little *%$# instead of an offensive word lol.Course if they want to rant or cuss on my site we made a place for that to keep it off the main site...maybe rosity could use a rant and rave place where you could make people agree before entering that they are solely responsible for the content of their comments? As for apologising...never hurts when you know what you'll be saying could insult someone~shows a little respect for the people who have to put up with it as well;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Personally I have shopped Daz rdna and renderosity and any problems on any of these site have been addressed in a very efficent,and/or apologetic manner.(knocks on wood) As for the Euro US dollar thing-- I think it would just be best for you then to buy it in US dollars, AND write to the company and tell them how displeased you are with this practice. You never know what could happen if you approach people in a polite way.

I know I have the same problem going the other way. Everytime I subscribe to 3D Magazine (England) they say they sell it to us here in the US and Canada for the special price of $99. I have yet to be charged $99 on my credit card. What I get charged is like $130 or so after currency change charges etc. So it goes both ways. You guys get it from your own government who charges you a totally unreasonable VAT! If we had that over here in the States there would be another Boston Tea Party I can tell you that!

lol Info, I subscribe to that Mag (it helped me get Motion Builder for a total of $300) as well and cringe at 'paying uphill' for it. I'm also saving for a trip to England and Normandy in spring and have to sock away a lot every month just to keep up with the ongoing inflation! But I don't mind. I LOVE the "weak" U.S. Dollar. And we ARE having a Boston Tea Party right now. Bush administration paying back France and Germany for their truculance on Iraq. Europeans should learn to be more productive. Get it: it's not the dollar that is weak, it is the Euro that is inflated. Bush not going along by inflating our currency is exposing the underlying unproductivity of Europe. ::::: Opera :::::

"compiler... I'll ask you nicely... please don't put the word fuck in the subject line again. " Heard. Operaguy : this has nothing to do with politics. Only with the commercial decisions of 2 companies. A lot could be said about your patronising statements, but it would be better suited to the Den forum.

Ditto on Compiler. Operaguy ... you might want to think before hitting post in the future. I love the weak dollar too. I can now buy role-playing books for 30% cheaper than few years back.

i will refrain from political posts in this thread (OT) but my comments stand as written, and are mild next to my full thoughts on this matter. ::::: Opera :::::

Just for the record bush cant actually inflate the dollar (not that he should!!) the federal reserve can do this by manipulating the currency supply. ,which they have wisely chosen NOT to do ;-)

My website

YouTube Channel

exactly wolf. write to me if you want my full rant. john@jrdonohue.com ::::: Opera :::::

After all, CL's parent company is based in Japan, no? (...and could you imagine if the pricing structure was based in Yen and that happened? E-gad... you could buy a nice car for whatever the price of Poser in Yen=USD or Yen=Euro...) /P

Well there is a price we Americans will pay for that weak dollar here in the U.S. as fuel prices and essentials go up.The trick here to understand is how foreign currencys rely so heavily on the dollar and if it goes down so does the economy of those nations that have invested in it and in American stocks.Bush took the wrong direction in the foreign conflicts he got us in and accomplished basically nothing as terrorists can cross into the U.S. anytime they want from Canada,Mexico or even a boat ride from asia...Saddam could go free because our military actions against him were illegal by international law due to the fact he was obeying the sanctions that intiated the conflict and of course he failed to get Osama.

But for all of this he has drastically damaged the domestic economy here in the U.S.,a friend of mine argued that the tax cuts he implemented are going to help...well they have to do an amazing job considering how much Bush is spending overseas plus creating obligations that will either keep us in debt for decades to come or turn allys into enemies when these promises are broken.

So don't look upon a weak dollar with too much happiness as I remember several years back when the Japanese yen faced a similar tumble and before that situation reversed,there was serious concern that it could not only devastate Japans economy,but do tremendous damage to the economys of its trade partners as well.And lets face it...more economys overseas depend on the success of the dollar than any did on the yen.Now that the republicans are finally beginning to focus a bit on the economy here,they're trying to slip in special interest legislation that will bog down legislation we need to build up the dollar and begin paying off these debts Bush has run up...why not,if you didn't like Bush the first time now you'll really hate him because he can't run again and this term will be to fulfill personal agendas that will only generate more conflict when we need greater unity to resolve these matters.

But yeah,the issue here Compiler is the weak dollar vs the stronger Euro dollar...in other words,CL isn't ripping you off,the Euro dollar is simply worth more so the price seems inflated.You could of course buy American dollars on the street cheaper than the exchange rates at a bank and come out wealthier for it~or invest in the U.S. dollar stock wise;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Well, we are OT so lets make the best of it...

Armorbeast, same thing was said for the Regan tax cuts. They did not turn the economy around for a decade and Clinton took the credit.

Things would be worse if there had been no W.Bush tax cut. I agree with you that Bush/Repubs show no sign of cutting spending, however. They should cut taxes AND cut spending. Short of such an outbreak of true free-market capitalism, we need a Democratic President forced to act like a fiscal conservative, a la Clinton when Greenspan went behind closed doors in 1993 and said, basically, "Paul Volker and I just put an end to gov't-caused inflation of the 70s-80s. Regan helped with his tax cuts. The downside is, the economy is still crippled; these remedies need another decade to take hold. You won't be able to execute your socialism. Balance the budget instead." Clinton had to go along. It helped that the Dems lost control of Congress, so Clinton could not get antsy and attempt massive new socialism anyway. It worked. Clinton was in office for a long time, and at the end of his term the 20-year remedy 1979-1999 took hold.

But The Great Boom of Prosperity that took place in the late 90s was wrecked not by Clinton or either Bush...it was Greenspan -- now alarmed by the outbreak of a hyper-hot economy -- attacking the "exhuberance" of the dotcomers with his six sledghammer interest hikes over 1999-2000 which, while it did finally destroy the dot com boom, also savaged the normal economy, which had taken 20 years to heal. Greenspan should have let any dotcoms which were 'vapor' explode on their own, caveat emptor, but no, he had to assert control. We are still attempting to recover from that.

Yes we have deficits, due to the cost of the War and the continued federal out-of-control spending, and moreso by the continued controlling behavior of Greenspan, but the Euro-gap is caused mostly by unproductivity in Europe. The Euro is inflated, not "strong".

[tremendously anti-European sarcastic paragraph, a real killer, self-censored here. I can take flames, but I don't want to get TOSed.]

::::: Opera :::::

Well,the difference there is that Reagan pursued many different programs that benefitted the economy...Bush has been widely criticised for having done next to nothing for us domestically.Reagan did cut taxes,but he also spent a hell of a lot of money as well...it was his ability to focus on domestic issues that helped.Reagan also was able to accomplish much of what he did without sticking to a strictly republican agenda and he was one to sit back and listen to his advisors or even to change course to adapt to changing circumstances...Bush has none of this going in his favor as many of his own advisors warned him not to take the actions overseas in the way he chose to do...he ignored them.He also point blank stated over and over during the campaign that he intended to stay the course no matter what...that means he intends to do in these four years what he did in his first four years.

The thing with Clinton was that after winning office he stopped being a party politician...in fact,time and again the democrats felt betrayed because he sided with the republicans.It wasn't that the republicans held power in congress,it was that Clinton wasn't thinking party politics...he was thinking of himself and doing the right thing so he goes down in history as a great leader.Bush is strictly a Republican and thats the problem as even Reagan sided with democratic ideas and legislation if it was the best thing for the nation...Bush won't.This sets the stage for conflict because the democrats won't keep giving blind support to this man because of 9/11...and I honestly think most Americans won't either.

So why did we re elect Bush?Because that idiot Kerry totally ignored entire regions of the nation to focus on only a few states that combined would give him many of the votes he needed...unlike Clinton who was wishy washy on the issues,Kerry lacked Clintons charisma and even after winning all three debates failed to capitalise on Bush's mistakes.Bush didn't win...Kerry lost!Ask a Bush supporter to name three things he's accomplished for us that don't have to do with Afghanistan,Iraq,terrorism or the military...make them focus domestically and they're clueless.

The reason the World Trade Center was targetted wasn't to kill people,it was a symbol of western capitalism...they thought that bringing it down would somehow cripple us financially and ruin the western world economically.This could not happen but they believed it could...but the actions of George Bush jr could very well achieve the objective these people sought,he could very well cripple our economy with his actions as well as those nations dependent on the strength of the American dollar.You must understand,if they just wanted to kill people,there were countless soft targets that could have killed millions of Americans ranging from nuclear power plants to a huge chemical waste dump in the midwest...it was never about killing Americans which is what most Americans thought.

The Euro dollar is indeed inflated...just needs a sharp pin to pop it and Bush has a very sharp pointy head;P

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

It's not the weak dollar that bothers me so much, as the reasons behind the weakness: our twin deficits, the trade deficit and the budget deficit. We consume more than we produce, and we spend more than we collect in taxes. We maintain our lifestyles by borrowing from foreigners. China could collapse our economy by selling off their dollars and refusing to buy our bonds. Of course, it's not in their interest to do that; we're their biggest market. But if the deficits keep increasing and the dollar keeps weakening, foreigners will be more and more reluctant to invest their money here.

This is not a liberal vs. conservative issue. Experts across the political spectrum are sounding warnings over the deficits: Paul Volcker, Robert Rubin, Alan Greenspan, and many others.

Therein lay the rub of what I said...Reagan and Clinton both worked across party lines to achieve their objectives...Bush is strictly a Republican and he has assumed almost dictatorial powers because our leaders in Congress and the Senate backed down out of fear that Americans would vote them out of office for opposing Bush as indeed was the case in several state elctions.Not only is Bush cutting our throats with his spending,but twisting the knife by cutting taxes when we need that to cover what he spends.Combine this with making our foreign trade partners angry with the invasion of Iraq and basically saying he doesn't give a damn,now trying to ram republican special interest agendas down the throat of Congress...this President is going to cripple the U.S. and anyone who invests too heavily in our economy. I totally agree,its not conservative or liberal...but we have to have a leader who can take from both to find answers like Clinton and Reagan~and this guy is totally incapable of doing that.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

"making our foreign trade partners angry"
translation: France hates us for destroying their client state, whom they armed all the way to breeder reactor and bio warfare. They are furious. We just went in their and killed their buddy and they were HELPLESS to prevent it. And now they won't get the oil, won't get paid and won't get to have their pet dictatorship.

"[Bush] almost dictatorial powers"
what about the 1932-1980 solid Democratic Congress, left-leaning Supreme Court and frequent Dem presidents. Was that "dictatorial"?

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 11/23/2004 09:22

randym77: >>It's not the weak dollar that bothers me so much, as the reasons behind the weakness: our twin deficits, the trade deficit and the budget deficit. We consume more than we produce, and we spend more than we collect in taxes. We maintain our lifestyles by borrowing from foreigners. China could collapse our economy by selling off their dollars and refusing to buy our bonds. Of course, it's not in their interest to do that; we're their biggest market. But if the deficits keep increasing and the dollar keeps weakening, foreigners will be more and more reluctant to invest their money here.<<

The answer is to let capitalism loose. Cut corporate taxes. Cut capital gains tax. Get the Federal Reserve out of the way. Slash the budget of government by half. The deficits will vanish in five minutes, just as they did in the late 90s.

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 11/23/2004 09:26

Message edited on: 11/23/2004 09:28

Please take the politics discussion to the Den or I'll have to bin this thread. It's heading so far off topic now it's practically in orbit & it began as Poser relevant which is the only reason it's still here. Thanks, Shoshanna

Actually its not Shoshanna as from the start it was about the Euro vs the dollar...thus the economy and economic issues revolve and emerge solely from politics.See opera there forgets how much we sold to Iraq ourselves and how nations like France wouldn't have had clients like Iraq if not for us propping up that little dictator down there...or had Bush's father taken Saddam out so his son wouldn't have to break international law to get even.As for dicatatorial...a dictator is one man who makes a decision that everyone else must follow regardless of their own belief and since his own advisors and fellow republicans did try to voice concerns that he ignored...I'd say that counts.Heck,even most republican newspapers thought he'd lose the election and the republicans that do support him don't do it because they think he's a good leader...so how is it wrong. As for the economy and how politics affect this since it was Clinton who did all the things in the late 90's opera more or less attributes to the republicans...if the U.S. economy keeps moving in the same direction it has in the past four years,the U.S. dollar will continue to devalue.The only way to cut deficits and build up the dollar is to stop spending on foreign wars that are doomed to fail in any case...sure we can kick ass and spend $200.billion dollars to beat up a few third world nations while the only thing our leader does to build up our economy is create a tax cut that does almost nothing to offset his own excessive spending...but we did it almost exclusively on our own with most of our own trade partners objecting except for Tony Blair on Britain.My point was that you don't do that without making your allies feel as if their concerns don't matter and where were we when they were victims of terror and sent nary a soldier to help them even when the republicans dominated the Presidency and the Congress!?Its important to know that their concerns matter and that Bush's actions not only failed,had he listened to his advisors and not acted on his own decisions when he has no experience,he may actually have gotten Osama and been so happy with that that there would have been no second war with Iraq.Thus he would actually have had to focus on the economy...but before any assuptions are made since opera seems to be leaning towards the radical right...I don't lean to the left or the right,I call a dead horse a dead horse and if it stinks get it out of here~Bush stinks. But if this does get moved to the realm of politics maybe thats a good thing cause I actually held back...I'll attack democrats or republicans cause their party affiliation means nothing to me~what matters is their ability to lead and being effective in representing the interests of our nation.I praise Reagan cause he was a great leader and I praise Clinton cause he was a great leader...but did you notice someone missing here that no one brought up cept me in a sly mention,yep that guy everyone seems to forget~George Bush sr.

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

Armor, why did you continue to post political when she asked you not to? That was wrong.

i held back too.

How do we move the thread?

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 11/23/2004 11:12

I started up a topic in the den, beginning with the political posts here. 1. Euro up against the dollar: U.S. fault or European inflation? ::::: Opera :::::

Cause no one else cares...question was answered and cause two responses from you deserved at least one back from me.Also cause I got some bad news,blood pressures up and you really don't want to get me in a less restrictive area atm so unwise to pass an invite to me to go there...but if I do and find the same as I've seen adressed,at least here I'll show restraint.

Message edited on: 11/23/2004 13:32

If the end goal of learning is genius...why are most geniuses failures at learning?

ok. respond or not, in the den, I am done with this thread here. I will be away-from-keys except on Judy/EJ issues for next 5 days after tonight. I am standing at the door imatiently waiting for my Poser5 upgrade to arrive, which I paid for in good 'ole weak American dollars. ::::: Opera :::::