I'm in a quandary. I made a hair model for my own use, but have been persuaded to consider releasing it. Trouble is, it's pretty complex, putting a hefty strain on user and computer. I could probably 'tone it down a bit', but then it would look more like existing models and that kinda defeats the object of the exercise. I guess what I'm asking is along the lines of the classic 'do the ends justify the means'? If you bought a model which looks this unusual but found it difficult to use, would you persevere with it, dump it, return it or post lots of moans? This is on the basis that the marketing blurb would include a clear warning about the very short but steep learning curve. I'm currently 50:50 as to whether to go to Market or put it in my 'Almost' folder. Any thoughts? tia, Moochie

Guess you need to know what it looks like. The poses on the right took about 10 minutes each. The one on the left (hair lengthened 350% .. no straight edges and no texture distortion!) took the best part of 3 hours. Is this going to put people off?

Ha! beat me to it eh. ;-)

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Looks really cool (and complicated), but sure I'd be interested.

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Here's an idea. Why not put the base hair in free stuff and sell additional texture maps and poses as an addon package. That way people can see if they can handle it on their computers before they buy the addon package. If people like it, I am sure they will likely buy the additional textures and poses. Otherwise you may risk a lot of unhappy customers whose computers are not up to the challenge.

You talk about how long it took you to render your pic. That doesn't mean anything unless we know the specs on the computer you are using.

How is it strenuous? Polycount?

.

I think its better to have a great product available than not available!

Making a very clear and bold warning in both any marketing description and the readme about minimum system requriements, and complexity of use, is really all any merchant can be expected to do, and you cant be held responsible for anyone that ignores any such information and then purchases and attempts to use your product with insuffient resources, either in the comp case, or the skull case ;)

You might perhaps consider including some advanced poses that youve already spent some time arranging as part of the package, then youve got a product that any newbie could immediately get say 3-5 advanced pose looks with by clicking a pose selection, and any advanced user could get infinite advanced looks from by already having developed Poser Patience :) And of course the aformentioned new user could always return to your product after getting some experience under the belt, and begin to enjoy new custom looks beyond the defaults theyve always previously used!!

I say GO FOR IT!!!!

Logan

hmmmm..... uh.....didja mean it took 10/180 mins to dial edit those styles into place, or 10/180 mins to render the results? 3 members posted while I was writing my post and having read thier posts, now im wondering if I understood ya correctly moochie?

I reallllllly LIke this!

well how are you rendering it? firefly renders take for freaking ever. Me I use poser4 or bryce, which tend to be faster. I do like the possibilties hinted at in the left render, but not the current pose. As for the right well .. the poser world abounds with ponytails.

I like it as well...I want :) Excellent work.

I suspect Mooch means that POSING the hair took 3 hours, not rendering it. Am I right, senor Moocho? Gorgeous hair BTW. :] Fish

i just have to say i love it!! maybe me and some others could test it for you?? will it work in poser4? and i too wonder about the time spent... was it to render or to pose?? netta

www.oodlesdoodles.com

I think it's pretty revolutionary if you can render hair that looks like it's postworked. :) I've spent at least an hour posing and morphing fairly simple hair just the way I want it, so three hours doesn't seem that bad to pose it in such an extremely complex way. I think as long as the warnings are up and you can include good instructions, it's well worth making available. Good luck to you! SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

I think it is very impressive looking hair . I dont get like others what you ment . But from the looks of it .Looks to me worth the time and effort. Pretty cool model

Apologies .. I didn't go into much detail as I didn't want to appear to be advertising in the main forum. But to clarify .. I was talking about posing time. It renders in P4 in less than a minute on my machine (2.8ghtz cpu, 1gig ram) and a few seconds longer using the P4 render engine in P5. Firefly renders, of course, take longer depending on your settings. The pose on the left took so long partly because I'm slow, but also because it was posed by hand. The ones on the right were posed using IK. It's a tough old bird to pose by hand because of the number of jointed parts, which are necessary to get those smooth curves. The poly count is ok .. it's all the rigging (IK chains, bulges, and some overlapping geometry) that makes it slow to load in P5 (P4 doesn't care and loads it in a few seconds). Anyway, SnowSultan hit the nail on the head "it's pretty revolutionary if you can render hair that looks like it's postworked". That was always the aim. You just made my day! I'll post one more pic below, since it shows the hair separated out a bit more. The full blown version of the model has 42 individually poseable sections in the tail. Each consists of 18 jointed actors. There are no 'movement morphs'. Thanks for all the positive responses.

Here

YES!!!!!!!

Is that "YES" as in "ooooooooo baby!!" or "YES" as in "Yes .. it IS too complicated for the Market"? Whichever .. thanks for the feedback. btw .. that last pic took about 30 minutes to pose just using IK (and a couple of twists with IK off to get the hair flat against the plane). The time included posing Steph.

Message edited on: 11/30/2004 18:02

YES!!! to the MP :).

Woweee!!! I think it's utterly fabulous! I would love to have a product like that even if it were a tad complicated to use. I strongly recommend including a lot of poses with it though, so folks who aren't so adventuresome as myself would be able to get a lot of good use out of it without having to worry about the complexities of it. This will encourage people to buy it and to leave you positive feedback too. And I warmly volunteer to test it for you and give you my opinions. I'll happily trade you some products in my store to compensate you for it. :) Best Blessings, --Invidia

I have my credit card in hand, is it in the store yet? Why not!!! I NEED this hair! Com'on get it in the store already! Seriously this is a fantastic product! Good things often take time to accomplish. Mike

i'm back again and yes! that hair is fantastic!! givvvve meeee, wannnt ittt....lol this type of hair is just what iv'e been wanting since poser addiction got me..lol even with the long pose time it would be worth it to get the results you show above..but yes i would include pre made ones or addon paks for it for the newbies out there. or place a lable on it that says: warning for advanced users or Poser Addicts only! netta ps. please add me to your mailing list for this produce item!

www.oodlesdoodles.com

Moochie; YES!!!!! Marketplace! Now! Want! One of the things fantasy artists have been missing in the content area is just that type of super-long, straight hair that -can- be posed in such extreme fashion. As fine as the follicle maps seem to be, and given how straight, you could probably whip up add-ons that would be hot sellers, as well (say a pair of conforming props that simulate a french braid pattern on the hair prop, with perhaps a pose to set the hair to blend in with the props).

"Anyway, SnowSultan hit the nail on the head "it's pretty revolutionary if you can render hair that looks like it's postworked". That was always the aim. You just made my day!" Heh, thank you. :) My first reaction was that it did look like postworked hair, and since painting hair can take a number of hours, having an actual hair mesh would certainly benefit animators and those who can't paint hair well (err, like me). ;) I do think that including a lot of preset hair poses is important though, like Invidia suggested. Even Poser veterans will tell you that they often use packaged poses as starting points and then tweak them to get the exact one they want. Anything to save time and frustration. ;) Thanks for sharing these examples, they do indeed show the quality of your creation. Take care. SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

First, you should totally release this to the marketplace. Second, if you're worried about the strain, why not make a low res version to go with the high res version? One could use the low res to pose and get the scene ready for render, then switch it to the high res to render. -- just a thought. The ponytail itself it fabulous! I would love to see a really nice, realistic texture for the head cap. Perhaps if not you, then maybe a great hair texture maker will add killer realism (in the texture map) to go with the killer realistic ponytail strands. And three more things: 1) Can the pony tail be positioned higher, lower, or to the sides on the head? 2) Will you make conformable for other characters besides V3? I would love to use that hair for an M3 character from Feudal Japan (like a very long top knot style). 3) And can there be fun pony tail holder props to go with the hair, or headress for the cap section like a crown, chop sticks, viel, jewels, tiara, etc? And if not you, perhaps a great modeler can make a bunch of hair props? 4) I really like the idea of including a few base poses to help get people started. Man, so many possiblities..... I think you'll have a real hit on your hands! bb

P.s. You could even make your killer ponytail hair fit MillHorse! The horse fans will go wild for ponytail on Mill horse. ;) bB

Dunno if it's "really nice" or "realistic", but the scalp section is perhaps a little more detailed than you can see thus far. So, at the risk of being flogged for getting commercial, here's a closer view. I'm rather pleased with the outer 'fluff' section (one of several innovations you'll find in the model). And yes, it does fit M3 (I've got it to fit 15 base characters so far .. I think that's probably sufficient). You can pose the 'stump' of the tail how you like, though moving the point where it joins the scalp proved to be too much. The hair on the scalp all sweeps round to that one point. Moving it would require a huge morph so that the scalp texture didn't distort. I abandoned that idea early on. There are millions of props already that you can add to hair models to add a bit of originality. I don't intend spending time on well-trodden paths. I get my kick out of doing stuff that's new. Next project is a complete hair model (not just tail but whole-head) using this same technique. Well, a similar method, anyway. I started the ponytail model originally to see if the basic principle was sound .. it just kinda took on a life of its own. Cheers all. Like any 'artist' (I use the term loosely when referring to myself!) working away on my own, you get the occasional fit of 'The Doubts'. Thanks for giving me some perspective back. You're all stars. Moochie

well im utterly impressed by your hair, it is totally amazing, i cant wait for you to release it!!! so many posability, so many ideas already, and it aint even out yet, lol! wow, i think you have a true winner on your hands, i really do!

In the words of DarkStarRising:
"Sadness within sadness,
Darkness within darkness,
a shadow of a form lays upon the floor,
looking at herself
looking at her own shadows of loneliness"

I'd be interested. And Mat Pose packages for the less adventurous (as someone above said) would offer some other sales opportunites. I think FireBirdz (?) does some wonderful hair morphs...might contact her about joining in on a package of styles (hope I got the right name).

It looks stunning !!! Release it !!!! You do have to :) :) I'm sure people will know what to do with it.

That's it, moochie! I'm holding my breath until I can buy this hair! mike

umm..... (slight pause) (eyes bug out) WOW!!! My poser 'puter is also P4 2.8GHz and 1GB. Oh, and name the hair "Godiva Hair." ;-}

It looks awesome and I'm sure if you put it in the market other folks would grasp how to pose it well really quickly and we'd soon see packs of poses and styles for it popping out in the store, kind of like some of the packs that have been made for other hairs, the UCP, Grace Lion hair etc... So these would help out the folks who may have a hard time posing it... So I'd say go for it! It looks fantastic and most poser users are always on the lookout for fantastic looking hair! :)

Lucie
finfond.net
finfond.net (store)