Attached Link: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=189841&page=1&pp=15

Visiting the galleries at CGTALK and what do mine eyes see?

An award winnning image that uses... POSER!!
Well Max and Photoshop were used as well but POSER?

But that's not all. If you read some of the comments....
Could the tide be changing?

You be the judge.

Message edited on: 12/30/2004 18:08

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Attached Link: http://www.richardmarchand.com

Check out the other art in this dudes gallery. He uses Poser in most if not all of them. He is really good too! http://www.richardmarchand.com

Could the tide be changing? In those circles, the chief complaints against Poser usually revolve around pre-made content and the quality of the renders (materials, lighting, etc.). He managed to sidestep all of that.

He's not the first to render wonderful images and the tide hasn't changed so I doubt it will now. Plus the tide is the way it is more over egos than the actual rendered images. When people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for a 3D program they don't want to admit someone else can produce an image that looks as good for a fraction of the price.

From the thread on CGTalk it seems to be more about what he does with it than what he uses. Which is as it should be when ppl focus on the artist style instead of his tools. I don't know if it says anything about the naysayers that confuse the tools with what you do with them, since prejudice needs no reasons.

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3d world mag has been having quite a few images with Poser recently...even an article on morphing, etc..

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

"When people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for a 3D program they don't want to admit someone else can produce an image that looks as good for a fraction of the price." I highly doubt that's the reason.

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

"When people spend hundreds or thousands of dollars for a 3D program they don't want to admit someone else can produce an image that looks as good for a fraction of the price." A top-notch 3D application costs far less that what many people spent on merchandise for their runtime. (XSI for less than $500). The main reasons against Poser are/have always been: 1/ Very recognisable (all millenium characters look alike because based on that same mesh) 2/ Spend enough money on merchandise and you can create extremely good looking images but nothing is really yours except perhaps some pllacing of the items in your scene and some tweaking. 3/ The joints. The -very complex- shoulder joint is a disaster in Poser. 4/ Very often a bit of jealousy as many (most?) people who own and use a top 3D application are not capable of creating a fully morphable and poseable human mesh of the quality of say, V3 or M3. Poser is a wonderful app, outdated as it is in many ways. But when you want to really use it, you have to work your way through the many options. Hey: if the top 3D apps had someone like DrGeep, they would be more popular, believe me!

I have tried prudent planning long enough. From now I'll be mad. (Rumi)

I think Aeneas hit it on the head with most of those points. There is a growing belief that the Poser community, overall, has brought so much of the negativity it experiences from other 3D communities upon itself by insulating its own community from even the slightest bit of blunt criticism, while at the same time celebrating mediocrity. Even people here, in this forum, have pointed out time and time again how novice works, or works with obvious errors in them, seem to garner nepotistical high praise and comments disproportionately in the Poser galleries. I don't necessarily believe in the "elitist" theory (that most people using high end apps look down on others because of how much they spent on their software), because I think there's MUCH more to it than that. There are users, for instance, of "low-end" software (Bryce, Carrara, Wings, etc.) who look at the Poser community with contempt as well. So it can't have very much to do with the price of the software, like some people want to believe. :-)

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Some ppl using Maya to rig and render used Wings3d to create their characters and props. The money bit and elite bit isn't a factor and I highly doubt jealousy is one either. There are valid reasons as to why people like Stahlberg uses Maya instead of Poser to rig and render. I do remember a thread about this on CGtalk.. mostly had to do with how they don't want cgtalk to be overrun with Poser users and cgtalk turning into Renderosity. People over there are against Terragen renders.. not because Terragen isn't expensive, but because it's a program that "generates" with a click of a button. They'd rather people keep their NVIAT renders on Renderosity. Using Poser to render isn't the problem.. the idea that you are using a V3 you didn't make, someone else's props, textures, using someone else's clothing, hair, jewelry, putting it all together with the thought you did something artistic when you didn't model 1 thing. That has nothing to do with jealousy or elitism. I wouldn't try posting an altered V3 on Spiraloid either. Spiraloid and cgtalk are concentrated on made from scratch stuff... your own work.

divinerain

Well in the rules of the Grand Space Opera Challenge it does say: "Q: Are random or parametric terrain and foliage/plant generation software (Bryce/Vue/Terragen) allowed? A: No. This has been a legacy of the last 15 Challenges. The whole purpose of the Challenge is to learn. We challenge artists with a concept/theme and rules/boundaries by which people have to work with. What's the challenge in pressing a few buttons and getting an automatic scene or terrain out of that? There's no challenge! We regard the Challenge like a triathlon, where athletes are given a goal and a route to go through to get to the goal. You don't see athletes jumping in cars to beat their competitors, and drug cheats almost certainly face banning, prosecution and public humiliation. Similarly, we give boundaries to the Challenge, and we challenge artists to better themselves through this. Q: Can I use Poser to make different people (because they will not be the main purpose of the scene)? A: No prefabs, if your characters are tiny it won't take you much effort to model some lowpoly humans." That probably doesn't mean you can't use Poser to submit stuff to the regular gallery just contests.

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aha..now I get it. I would rather push the buttons and have a terrain, or use a prefab and concentrate on my image...don't need no steenkin challenge...that takes too much time. And we all know it isn't all that easy to get a decent render out of Bryce, Vue, or Poser

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

Considering the flaming that has been done to those who -have- submitted a dastardly Poser pic to the main galleries, I wouldn't say that. And those of us who use PoserVueBryce etc. -do- know how difficult it can be. But then, we use them. Many of the ones making the disparaging comments flatly refuse to try the tools and make it a point of pride to keep it that way. And so have no genuine idea as to how 'easy' or not the tool is to use. And the user comunities of the 'big apps' are just as prejudiced, obnoxious, and snottily convinced they have a lock on the Holy Grail as the Poser community is routinely accused of being (I seperate out the true professionals; those who actually make a living off of their skills with the applications at a regular job; not the occasional contract. They, as a group, tend to be less zealous and more concerned with what gets the job done quickest and for the least amount of money and trouble). So no one can throw stones, as all sides live in glass houses and have thoroughly flashed their dirty underwear to the world.

I think a large part of it is the way it's put together. It seems to be more the effort that is put into the image that the naysayers have a problem with. From what it says in that thread on CGTalk, Richard Marchand uses more than Poser in his images, 3ds max, Photoshop, Poser can achieved some better results than Poser alone if done correctly. The naysayers do tend to generalize too much since if you just use the defaults in any single program, of course the results aren't going to be what they could be. But if you take the time and effort to get the most of what it can do then the effort is going to show in the final result. That's the point, it's not what tools the artist uses it's what he does with them and the naysayers usually miss that when they get caught up in only focusing on the technical aspects. Banning the use of certain programs in the challenges on CGTalk is fairly shortsighted since it's the expertise that the artist brings in how they use them that is what makes the image. If as they say The whole purpose of the Challenge is to learn. then wouldn't they encourage practicing how to get the most out of any program or technique that contributes to making the best image for the final result?

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"then wouldn't they encourage practicing how to get the most out of any program or technique that contributes to making the best image for the final result?" Well, in all fairness, there is a Bryce artist who posts to CGTalk on a fairly consistant basis, and has received awards and even an appearance in the prestigeous Expose book! His name is Rochr, and we all know him from this website as well. He's managed to overcome the stereotype most have towards Bryce users, and has even been approached by professional CG studios. One of the main problems is, the Poser community, perhaps more than any other, consists largely of people who have no interest in advancing their 3D skills beyond what is generally considered an "amateur" level, and only use the app as a hobby or for pure fun (which is perfectly fine). However, communities like CGTalk take 3D VERY seriously (most of them are either professionals in the industry or aspire to become professionals), and seeing as how so many Poser users tend to publish work in mass quantity (for evidence of this, just check how fast the galleries here rotate in new images), often without being scrutinous to detail or mindful of content and technique. Those communities who consist mostly of people who have aspirations of making a career out of it, pride themselves on educating the 3D community to progress their skills beyond a certain level, and tend to not want their galleries to become storage areas for 3D tits and ass. Having worked now professionally in 3D myself for the better part of 3 years, I can see their point. However, I also believe people who don't want to make a career from 3D should be allowed to have FUN with it if they want to. There's two sides to every story. ;-) Happy New Year!

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Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.