Attached Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6852832/

The $200,000, armed version will carry standard-issue Squad Automatic Weapons, either the M249, which fires 5.56-millimeter rounds at a rate of 750 per minute, or the M240, which can fire about 700 to 1,000 7.62-millimeter rounds per minute. The SWORDS can fire about 300 rounds using the M240 and about 350 rounds using the M249 before needing to reload. All its optics equipment the four cameras, night vision and zoom lenses were already in the Armys inventory. Its important to stress that not everything has to be super high tech, said Sebasto. You can integrate existing componentry and create a revolutionary capability. The Talon had already proven itself to be pretty rugged. One was blown off the roof of a Humvee and into a nearby river by a roadside bomb in Iraq. Soldiers simply opened its shrapnel-pocked control unit and drove the robot out of the river, according to Quinn. Running on lithium ion batteries, it can operate for 1 to 4 hours at a time, depending on the mission. Operators work the robot using a 30-pound control unit which has two joysticks, a handful of buttons and a video screen. Quinn says that may eventually be replaced by a Gameboy type of controller hooked up to virtual reality goggles.

poser relevance?

It would make for an interesting model.

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It's a low profile robot.

On the other hand, Sci-Fi/Fantasy 'mechs are great -- in fantasy.

In reality, on a modern battlefield: any vehicle towering over the combat area would make a perfect target for everybody else to shoot at. That's why real-world tanks often use "hull-down" positions in order to avoid presenting a huge profile to enemy gunners.

Anyone, or anything, that stands up on a modern battlefield has an extremely short life expectancy.

In the horrible place which is known as the real world, a sci-fi style 'mech wouldn't last long.

Sorry if that disappoints some......

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Well- you have to take into consideration other new technologies being developed- the Army is working on STEALTH materials- which change colors to match the terrain, is hard to see by infra-red heat detection, etc. I agree that walking mechs are more of a great sci-fi creation than practical, but the concept of a soldier sitting at a pilot-like game console controlling a low profile, probably track-based, stealth-camo mech, is coming in the future. Like early aircraft- they will undergo lots of development- and get better as time goes on. For now- 3D Modelers can influence their design by creating what they they think these combat mechs will look like, and people can poserize them and make them animated. (And they can make a few bucks from the models, or the created visuals...)

...and I bet Moebius87, Stonemason and SanctumArt could have a lot of fun playing with this concept...

Hmm. I have to agree with Xenophonz here. As it is, while these 'bots have some good use, I also see that US forces are putting out millions of dollars of hardware to fight againt an enemy that can turn a heavily beaten up Totota Corolla (street value less than $500) packed with explosives, into a deadly improvised weapon. I seriously wonder how one of these machines, capable of traveling at less than 4MPH maximun, without the ability to dive, scramble, or scamper behind cover, will do against a late model Warsaw Pact RPG... or even a barage of stones, molotov cocktails, grenades, and small arms fire. Time will tell...

...still wondering what this has to do with poser.. lets see. a 3d rendering program vs a converted bombbot. what chance has poser got?? boom ok. here's a question. the chassis is a "wheelbarrow" type robot used for remote detonation of bombs. they've added a nightsight and put some guns on it. ok. why 2million dollars for the conversion research? a special effects house could do it for $5000!!! a team from Robot Wars could do it for $5000!!!

Attached Link: http://www.srl.org/

Mark Pauline and his Survival Research Laboratories (from whom all Robot Wars sprang) has been building variations on this concept using discarded/found scrap metal and machine parts since the 1970s. He's been approached by the U.S. military more than once regarding his ingenuity, but has declined interest, preferring to apply his vision to art and shows. Unfortunately, here in SRL's home town (San Francisco) it's been impossible for them to get show permits for years and years (whereas, for example, in the Netherlands, the military offers to donate equipment! Europe is so much more civilized when it comes to sponsoring art.) There used to be this intentional cat-and-mouse game with the local fire department ... they'd show up just as the shows were drawing to a close, and "shut them down." It didn't help that at one of the last big shows, a robot dinosaur set fire to a stack of pianos under a freeway overpass, causing the flames to rise above both sides of the road. Must have been something to drive through ... I miss those days. :-)

While some talented modellers have made cool battle mech, I haven't seen anything quite like what Veritas seems to be proposing.

Veritas, you have a lot of cool ideas for what modellers might like to sink their teeth into. I wonder if you might enjoy modelling yourself? Have you given it a shot? LOL ... I'm one to talk. I bought Shade a couple of months ago but haven't finished the tutorials yet. :-)

Message edited on: 01/24/2005 18:44

Wait for the day a "hacker" assumes control of one of these proxy-bots! Our cowardly weapons will be used against us.

I wouldn't call these weapons cowardly. If you presume, for example, the application of one of these 'bots to be used in an environment where there have been sniper attacks, then I would rather see an expensive piece of hardware trundled out to be shot to pieces, rather than a serviceman- whether the soldier be American, British, Canadian, or Turkish. Indeed, part of the article mentions that the impetus behind retrofitting these 'bots was the pleas of active servicemen who were seeing their fellow soldiers sniped, bombed, and ambushed. I don't think any of them, who have to live or die in a hostile environment on a daily basis, would reckon this solution cowardly...

I call these weapons cowardly because they are dishonorable. Sniping and bomb-dropping, modern warfare are all cowardly in the sense of honor. Honorable combat is hand-to-hand. I do not mean to say any soldiers are cowards. The cowards in modern warfare are the leaders, directing death and mayhem from their positions of comfort and security. Monster-Bush partying whilst sending his soldiers to kill and die. That is cowardice.

xoconostle- I'm NOT a modeler- I toss out ideas in hopes that someone with modeling skills (that I wish that I had) would make cool stuff. My end of the deal is that I will BUY the cool models, and hope other people will too. As I've probably said in other posts, I'm a "rendering" kind of guy! Just looking for that next great model to buy that some talented modeler out there is going to make... (That's why my first stop every day when I visit Renderosity is to check out what cool stuff may be showing up NEXT in the Marketplace...- THEN I visit the forums...)

aaaah now I understand... hmm the one prob with that design is the tracks.. they ain't easy to do in Poser... maybe soon tho.. there's a tutorial on how to do them.. you just need a PHD in math tho :(

In the interest of avoiding a locked thread (which is likely now inevitable anyway) I would suggest that anyone interested read Col. Charles Grossmans book "On Killing" having to do with his research as a psychologist in the US Army. His specific study is on the effect of killing on the human psyche. I would also recommend reading Victor Davis Hanson's "The Western Way of War" which is a very unromantic study of Greek Hoplite warfare. Suffice it to say that anyone who studies anthropology and archaeology will tell you that Iron age and close quarter pre-gunpowder warfare was far from the romantic ideal that the modern cinema would suggest. Have a look at the archaeology of the battle of Visby (Viking Age warfare). Legs cut through. Skulls split with axesPiles of screaming men bleeding in the dirt and trampled underfoot. The smell of a slaughterhouse all around. Honor indeed. One of the leading causes of death in war up until the twentieth century was illness -from infected wounds. Many children now get a tetanus shot. Up until recently, the absence of this vaccine meant that after a day of being poked, slashed, and gouged with rusty, blood encrusted weapons, a warrior could look forward to a debilitating infection that will kill him in an excruciatingly painful manner. One name for the sickness was "lockjaw" Honor indeed. The recent horror show in Rwanda in the late nineties was fundamentally Iron age warfare- that is, angry people using farming implements to chop each other and their families into lunchmeat for flies. Honor indeed. For that matter, spend time reading up on, or better yet talking with former inmates from a maximum security prison where all of their fighting is hand to hand combat and death comes from a piece of steel no bigger than a stick of chewing gum. Honor indeed. I would also recommend spending time with an actual combat veteran or present active-duty service member to hear their perspective on their experiences. Conversely, I would not recommend talking in their company about why using technology to protect soldiers is somehow "dishonorable"... Thats all I got to say. Im outta this thread. Thanks for the link above, folks.

I never said any weaponry was honorable. My point is that it is less difficult to murder people when you can send in a robot to commit the atrocities. I have been a martial artist my entire life. There are honorable ways of fighting.

And, Kolchey, That robot is NOT a defensive weapon. It is a murder-machine, a sniper-bot. Maybe you should read "Ender's Game" by Orson Scott Card to see a take on the dangers of using video-games to control death-dealing robots.

Oh, good grief! A ten year old from the Bronx with a baseball bat could take that silly thing out! If it was internalized with some sort of useful armour plating where the only "targets" were the external antenae and the pop-up camera port, that would be different. But, let's be serious here, that thing is a joke and a waste of taxpayers resources...I say they need to let the auto shop kids at the local tech school have a go at the project and we'll see just who makes the best toy for the least money! I mean, really now...what it needs is a couple of "street sweaper" shotguns, the SAR, some RPG rounds, and a prayer of a chance of surviving in East Los Angeles!! Somewhere out there is a lonely toaster thinking "hey, I make you my bitch, you come to my 'hood!"

For the history buffs, here is his Granddaddy:

"Goliath", a small remote controlled explosives carrier used by the German Army in WW2:

More pics on this site: http://wilk.wpk.p.lodz.pl/~whatfor/goliath.htm
(Sorry, site is in Polish)

stahlratte

aaah yes.. the german WW2 "tankbomb"...... wireguided to target and detonated.. nice idea.. but the Panzaerfaust was cheaper and easier to use ;)

Sword strikes me (no pun intended) as something more akin to the Predator UAV than a battle mech. When mecha finally are a reality, they'll see service in construction and the like long before they see combat.

Attached Link: http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html

Well... one way that I know we won't be leaving Iraq any time soon is our investment in these warbots and their expected deployment this year. I suppose that will free our men to be sent into Iran? 700 shots per minute is not a defensive machine! It is a great way to use up ammunition and chew through anything in the path... guided by teenagers playing Quake and Unreal Tournament... except the bodies of anybody passing by will be as real as their "yeehaw"s as things explode on their monitors. :sigh: Carlyle Group is one of the investors which tells you a lot! (ties with Halliburton, Bush, neocons, etc.) The way things are going, the only jobs in the future will be making ammunition to be squandered or designing wartoys for the computer crusaders. And it will all further enrich Bush and his cronies in the military-industrial arena. And, no, I won't buy even a Poser-ready model of one. Carolly

Aesthetically, I have to admit that the aforementioned tank-treaded remote-controlled vehicle looks ugly, unwieldy, and stupid. A mech or mecha is a vehicle which has some degree of anthropomorphism to it, such as "eyes," "arms," "legs," or a "head," all of which can vary drastically from one mechanical designer to another. The vehicle described in that article has no recognizable human or humanoid characteristics, and doesn't even fit the category of robot as it is incapable of independent reasoning or operation. It's a remote-controlled urban assault vehicle, basically a remote-controlled car with tank treads and a machine gun.

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2069531

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2069531

Speaking of ... thought you might find this relevent.

Those little toy robots are gonna get stomped on by the insurgents. One rpg and it is down for the count, but I can see other ways of disabling one without blowing it up. They need more work, but it is good that they will get some "SERIOUS BETA TESTING".

Hmmm...Hi Tech "Smart weapons" ??..is that where the operator is so busy watching what he's doing to control his multi-million dollar 'weapon' that some poor ignorant slob can sneak up behind him and bash his brains in with a handy rock ? When will those in love with technology realise that the face of modern warfare has changed ? It's no longer organised armies facing easily identified enemies - two or more States fighing it out for possession of some piece of territory ? Warfare in the last half of the 20th Century should have taught us that. But no, our leaders still persist in the idea that mere possession of a high tech military machine ensures ultimate victory. We have failed to heed the lessons of Vietnam and the russians in Afganistan. Yes..our high tech armies may win battles..but they do not ensure victory in war :( Reliance on high tech equipment is an admission that the man-power to conduct a war is no longer available. And no--I'm NOT casting doubts on the courage and devotion of those who chose to serve their countries on the field of battle. What I'm saying is that less and less people in the western world are willing to risk their all in the military, And that without manpower..you cannot fight a war and win. An Airforce, or a Navy may win battles..but without troops on the ground, a victory cannot be achieved.

Message edited on: 01/25/2005 05:11

Cool!!! AVP is out on DVD today with an all new beginning sequence!!!!! off to blockbuster Video!!!!

My website

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While a big battletech or Gundam sized robot will always be an impractical weapon, I firmly believe something along the lines of the "Armored troopers" from the anime Armored trooper votoms, would be a very effective weapons system (especially in an urban environment)and something like it could probably be built today with enough research money to work out the muscle cylinder technology.

I used to think balancing, and the complexity of bipedal movem-ent were the problems, but it seems Sony and Honda have licked that. The real problem is that at larger scales, the responce time and power of servos, and actuators is too weak. Ya could power something like an AT with a combustion engine. so power isn't really an issue.

Masamune Shirow's Landmates, and fuchikoma would also make very effective weapons as well.

As for the morality of using ROV's in a combat environment, I think it should be strictly limited to things like manning checkpoints, where soldiers or police are unreasonably vulnerable to suicide bombers.

For obvious reasons, I don't think autonomous armed robots should ever be deployed.

Message edited on: 01/25/2005 07:56

The original "wheelbarrow" was British (like the original tanks), and was used for bomb disposal. Get a camera, and a few specialised tools, close to a terrorist bomb without risking a man's life. As a weapon, a machine-gun isn't intended to get close to an enemy. It's the long-range weapon carried by the infantry, for dealing with groups of targets. I can see one of these things coming around a corner and laying down suppressive fire, or just coming around a corner and looking, but its speed, range, and control system are just too limited. You;ll still have to send soldiers in to finish the fight.