2 days ago, I leave with my husband who had to take off of work early for a family emergency. I leave at 3pm come home at midnight to find that my house was ransacked. Completely robbed. They took all my christmas presents, some of my clothing, money, went through my personal belongings, took my husbands playstation 2 and all his games, every dvd I own... just anything worth anything. They tried to take my computer. Everything was completely stripped. The monitor was off and all the plugs except my cable was out of the tower. I feel completely violated and unsafe. We called the cops and of course they were there within minutes. My door with a dead bolt AND TWO damn chains broken into. Looks like they took a prybar and hammer to the outside of the door. I was extremely upset, scared and just loosing it. To see all my things taken, expecially christmas presents, my neices room even . They went through my socks, underware, clothing. So basically we were told well not much can be done and well we take a hit for this. We finally Bit&*&^% enough to get a detective to come because if anything whoever stole this stuff's fingerprints is everywhere in my house unless he was smart enough to wear gloves. All my cabinents left open. They even took the knife I use to protect myself. Ugg I am just at a loss. I completely loose faith in the world and people and the justice system anymore. We were victimized yet nothing will be done.

That is aweful!!! I am so sorry. I also agree with you that it really sucks when that happens and nothing is done. Years ago my apartment was broken into. Just myself and two children lived there at the time. They also took everything of value and worst of all our security. My little guy was only two at the time and he refused to leave the house for months afterwards without his bear bear (stuffed orange cow!) because he was afraid someone would come and take him. It made me cry. Please try not to lose faith in people as there are many more good than bad (hard to believe sometimes) but as for the justice system.....I'm still replacing movies and such as I didn't have insurance and to top it off I told them who did it and how I knew and "they" couldnt' prove it enough to charge the person. Again I am so sorry to hear this it's an aweful thing to have happen esoecially when it sounds as if you have so much more important things to worry about right now. Hugs to you and yours this really stinks.

My sympathy. I had an apartment broken in to as well. Fortunately (if you can call it fortunate) they were (we are pretty sure) after my roommates gun and only grabbed a few small things on their way thru, camera, pocket knives, money from a jar (they didnt take the 1gal jar, just the change from inside). Unfortunately unless they catch them in the act nothing gets done. Even if you know who did it .

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I've had my car broken into several times and NOT Once would the cops come out and even check for finger prints. It makes me wonder what the hell we p[ay them for these days! They're certainly not serving or protecting us! One of the theives even left his dirty cigar butt with genetic evidence on it and they didn't give a damn about it.

Message edited on: 02/04/2005 14:34

Steve, when you're talking about forensic evidence it really depends upon who's collecting it as to whether it will be turned in. Quite honestly, a lot of your older police officers just see these cases as an excuse for paperwork. One police officer I've met described the whole analysis of forensic evidence as "geek stuff." A few of the younger guys who have gotten degrees and have been exposed to the whole CSI thing are a lot more conscientious. From the lab standpoint, a lot of incoming evidence just sits in the backlog until it can be analyzed. So it could be months before the evidence is actually looked at. Forensic labs are consistency understaffed and underfunded. (So what you see on CSI isn't how it actually is.) Plus, there is now the stress of choosing between hiring new people and having your lab be accredited which can mean that the money has to be spent on adding structural features to the lab for security or developing new quality assurance protocols. In addition, without having additional evidence to make a comparison may make having the genetic evidence not very probative. I'm not sure whether every DNA lab has access to the CODIS database as well. I honestly think that not all police officers are trained to collect genetic evidence as well. As far as the fingerprints, that is an equally backlogged section although there is the chance of matching crime scene latent prints with DMV records or previous arrest records. Azrael, unfortunately a lot of times cops are more willing to do stuff if they know you. A lot of cops/detectives have the idea that they are the only ones who do anything and the world would just fall apart if they weren't out on their beat instead of responding to your call. The idea that a suspect needs to be caught in the act is BS. Otherwise, nothing would ever be solved. My suggestion is that you call the laboratory itself and have them send someone out. You pay taxes so they should come out. ****There may be toolmarks from the crowbar the guy used to break in. The forensic science community is a small world. Tell me what city you live in and I'll see if I have a contact for you.

My sincere sympathies. My house was burglarized twice. The initial shock was bad enough, but then it comes back to you afresh when you look for something you didn't realize was taken and it's not there. Months after I was robbed I was going on a trip and I went to get my suitcases out of the back of the closet and realized that the burglar had used them to carry stuff out. Don't expect the police to do anything, they are too busy holding DARE meetings and giving tickets to collect the tax on speeding to arrest real criminals. Hey, those crooks could be dangerous! You will be lucky to even get your stuff back if any of it is ever recovered. I really feel sorry for you. Good luck in getting over this, it will take time probably.

Really sorry to hear that... I know how dispiriting it is when the police don't seem interested. Hope you and your family feel safe again soon.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

I suggest looking in pawn shops and seeing if you recognize any of your stuff. A lot of these perps steal the stuff to fund a drug habit or some other vice. So some of your belongings could be on the black market or in pawn shops...

This is really nothing. My Mom lives in an aparment complex with underground parking complete with video cameras. Her car was broken into and 'caught on tape' the policed viewed the tape, and said nothing could be done even with the two perp's caught nicely on the tape.

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Thank you all very much. I guess I just needed to talk about it to feel a little better. I truley hope something is done. I called every thrift shop and pawn shop in a 20 mile radius, a few leads, but it just shows that you have to do stuff yourself, because nobody else will do it for you. The detective is going to take fingerprints off the plastic piggy bank we have. Its only a few days old and pretty fresh and being plastic will make it easier. Thank you all for your care and support.

And by the way the city I live in is Buffalo, NY. :D There are many toolmarks in the door, a peice is missing and looks like a crow bar or screw driver driven into the door, very deeply./

Message edited on: 02/04/2005 16:21

Message edited on: 02/04/2005 16:22

Azrael, I'm sorry to hear about the break-in. I live south of Buffalo. It seems the only thing that gets attention around here is the county budget.

heheh yeah I know what you mean, Erie county is getting too poor and they raised our taxes yet we do not have enough detectives for crimes.

IM sent.

Friends of mine in Paris were burgled and the police wouldn't even come and look. They just said "contact your insurer".

Consider moving to a red state........ Break-ins happen here, of course. Statistically not as often. But if you catch them and shoot them, then the chances are that the act will be recognized for what it is: self defense.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I take it that you've all heard of the recent shooting death of a woman in NYC when she stood up to a group of muggers on the street. People like this don't deserve life in prison. They deserve life in pain and suffering (and a quick death very shortly thereafter). Always return the amount of respect for life shown by the perpetrator (of course, when there is conclusive evidence for reciprocation). As for myself, I keep a live katana near my bed (closer to me than to anyone entering the room) just in case. And, yep, I know how to use it. ;) Sorry to hear about your violation. Hope the perpetrators are caught and your stolen items recovered! Robert

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

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lol about your kitana, that rocks, I have a axe and few daggers The axe over my kitchen door should tell the robber something. heheh Thank you all for your support and kind words, I appreciate it.

PapaBlueMarlin's suggestion is very good. A friend of mine was burglarised not too long ago, and they caught the guy when my friend recognised most of his eclectic music collection in a popular second-hand music shop here. He got his music back, and because the music shop demands names and verifiable addresses from anyone from whom it buys music (because they don't, in principle, deal in stolen goods) the police tracked and arrested him. But damn, that sucks, horribly. At the end of the day it's not the stuff they took, but the fact that someone violated your private space, and that hurts. Don't lose faith in humanity, though-- for every criminal git there are a hundred decent people. It's just that the gits make their presence felt so much more strongly by their githood. I've been lucky, but acquaintances and neighbours have had some pretty bad experiences. I try to do my bit to help make other people just that little bit safer, and there are loads of other people doing the same thing. Maybe you could write out a short letter to put through your neighbors' doors, to let them know what happened. That way they can be extra vigilant against it happening to someone else... as well as maybe catching the person who broke into yours should they try it again. I'm truly sorry. The sad thing is that burglaries are not treated as serious crimes when they very much should be.

Consider moving to a red state........ I second that. It's what I did after my house was robbed twice and my parents were also cleaned out a little later. Also, you might consider getting some security gear. A burglar may return in a few weeks if he got good stuff the first time; he will figure that you are getting all new stuff now.

Now now. I used to live in one of the most dyed-in-the-wool blue states there are. I routinely left my house and car open, and never had a thing nicked. I also routinely opened other people's unlocked cars to turn their headlights off before their batteries ran down, and other people probably did the same for me. Crime is not a blue state/red state issue.

Strangechilde, you are right of course. Crime is statistically about the same everywhere. Burglars tend not to be political. I guess the only place I can go to where I will be sure I won't be robbed is poserspace (unless copyright infringement is theft).

Message edited on: 02/04/2005 19:11

Crime is not a blue state/red state issue.

Guess again, who's robbed more? Someone from a big city like Boston, New York etc or someone from a small city from a red state. Red/blue states DO make a big diff. Depending on where you live. I'm from a blue state, it's so common to be robbed up here in MA, the cops don't even bother showing up anymore. Big cities are usually riddled with a high crime rate, especially the West/East Coasts.(JMHO) Message edited on: 02/04/2005 19:48

Well seeing as how my car was broken into like clockwork for 6 years running til I finally stopped putting a new radio in and started leaving the doors unlocked and the windows rolled down to keep them from getting broken by theives too stupid to see that the locks weren't being used. I'd say that the cops had PLENTY of reason to come out at least once to check for prints in that time period to find out if it was the same theif year after year. if nothing else they would at least have gotten some prints to put in their little file cabinets.

I came back to my appartement where I lived before and someone also had been inside. Beside of take things of value also photos from vacations, famely photos in frames and personal papers was stolen. At least the police came to your house, they didn't bother to come to mine! So much for HC Andersen's fairy tale country!

Decorate your house with alot of jagged weapons, and dead things. Won't stop break-ins right away, but the word will spread. Even thieves are spooked by rotting flesh.

The axe over my kitchen door should tell the robber something.

Decorate your house with alot of jagged weapons

Yes.....this gives the intruder something to take down off the wall as he hunts for you.

A .357 located in the drawer next to your bed, or placed directly under your bed within easy reach -- is far more effective.

It might not be politically correct to say so -- but your average 200lb. hardened intruder won't be intimidated by a 100lb. woman holding a knife. Especially not if he's holding a gun.

On the other hand, a 100lb. woman holding a .357 is a different matter.........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

BTW - security experts say that the best deterrent is a large, mean dog in the house. Usually, the barking that such an animal makes is enough to discourage your average burglar from attempting to come into the house. Keep in mind, a Rottweiler in a fenced-in back yard won't do you a bit of good. The animal has to be inside the house.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

BTW II --

My point concerning red states wasn't that you wouldn't get broken into here.

My point is that you can legally defend yourself if it happens (but hopefully not).

By contrast -- your average blue state is very likely to throw you in jail if you use deadly force against an intruder. I lived in MA for a while. Boston, in fact (Woburn). That state was known to crack down hard on individuals that defended themselves "too vigorously". Even in their own homes.

Red states tend to view the matter quite differently.

Down South -- if he's in your house, he's dead.

It's called the right of self defense.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Oh one more point here, on the issue of human kind and in the defense of....My purse with all my i.d had been taken as well (I don't like carrying a purse) anyway, about two weeks later the police phoned me, a gentleman had found my i.d laying on a path between two buildings, gathered it all up and brought it to them so it could be returned! Now that's nice!! Just about forgot about that part and it was the only thing good about the whole thing!

my sympathy to you. hugs i hope you and your family would feel safe.

Yeah and to back up what Xeno is saying, I live in Kentucky and one night I thought I heard a noise. At this time I was living on about 130 acres, my husband wasn't home and I was scared. I called the police, they came right out and checked around the immediate property around the house, he came back and asked me if I had a gun, I said yes, actually I had it in my robe pocket at that very moment. LOL He asked "Do you know how to use it?" and I said "Yes", he told me to shoot them if they come back, also that I should make sure that they are by the door or inside the house when I shoot. I am originally from the city so I was quite shocked by this attitude, however, I have to say that at that time, when I was so scared, I loved that attitude because it made me feel like I could do something to protect myself without worrying about going to jail myself. I am really sorry to hear about you being robbed. :-(

Well, call me a pinko hippie liberal, but I'm not shooting anybody. I do keep a large dog in the house. Two of them, actually... though they kind of fall down on the 'mean' qualification. They do bark, though. It's a good deterrent. Other people don't necessarily know they're big petals.

Yeah, I don't think I would have shot anybody either. I don't even like guns myself. My husband was working 3rd shift at that time and thought is was mandatory for me to have a gun. I have always had nice large dogs myself but at that particular time I didn't because he had to be put to sleep and I was still in mourning over him, couldn't bear to get another dog. Anyway, I really can't say what I would have done but it did make me feel safer.

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 05:00

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 05:01

Well, call me a pinko hippie liberal, but I'm not shooting anybody.

If it's my family, me, or the intruder......there is no issue involved.

There is no way that I am going to sit back and watch while a rapist/robber/killer/whatever does his thing to me and mine.

He's dead.

About two years ago, in my (Southern) city, we had a local news story.

A number of home invasion robberies had been occuring in our area, perpetrated by a gang of so-called "Irish Rovers". Wandering bands of "families" or a "traveling commune".

Well, one black family had their house broken into by a group. The group came in yelling "police! police!"

When interviewed later on TV, the black man stated that he responded by saying "You ain't the po-lice." And then he started shooting.

They didn't do what they had intended. The father was slightly wounded in the exchange, but his family was safe.

If I recall correctly, he succeeded in killing two of them.

In red states, we know the reason.

BTW - I understand that "home invasion" type robberies have become far more frequent in Canada since that nation passed strict laws about homeowners having to store guns & ammunition locked away, guns unloaded, etc.......

When the predators know that they can do their thing with impunity, then they rule the world. Or, at least -- they rule your world.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

All that the police can do afterwards is pick up the pieces. In the gravest extreme, you've got to be prepared to defend yourself and your family.

When a nation or a state doesn't recognize the right of self defense, then the killers are in charge.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

First of all my sympathy goes out to all those that have been violated in such a maner. I personally have not experienced this situation. While I agree with most comments about "defending" yourself with some type of weapon, I find that the majority of this type of crime happens when the "victim" is away. Obviously a weapon would be of no use other than to give the violator(s) something else to take. The idea of a large dog is a good one however, if the violator(s) are carrying a weapon they can easily remove the threat of one large dog. My family has a Rot, a Shepard and a Min Pin. While the Min Pin is the most ferocious of the three, her only abilities are the obviously loud bark and fast movements. The Rot is know for biting down and the jaw locking in place. The Shepard is fast and a repetitive biter. All three are know for the barking and are very protective of the house. When we are away they are all inside. While there is never a %100 gaurantee, I believe that our house has a relative safety value. When we are home and in bed I have a rifle, a bow, a kitana and various other "weapons" around the house within easy reach. I live on the outskirts of a relatively small town (approximately 20,000) but within 25 miles of two rather large towns (excess of 250,000) that have a lot of this type of crime. We do not even lock our doors when we aren't home. Once everyone is in for the night and the last person heads to bed the front door is locked but the back door and the door in from the garage is never locked. We recently had a situation where someone looking for a person that lived accross the street came to our house instead. Believing they were at the right house they started to open the door and walk in as that is how it is done accross the street. That was not a wise move on his part. My wife was home at the time and all three dogs were right there at the door. He realized his error and reached to touch my wife to "apologize" and she just told him that would not be wise. All three dogs were ready to take matters in to their own "paws" at that time. Again, my sympathys to out to those who have experienced this type of violation. Pony

I would never consider "defending" myself.

However, I would gladly DEFEND both me and mine.

Obviously a weapon would be of no use other than to give the violator(s) something else to take.

If one is away, true.

Unfortunately, home invasion robberies are a reality of our times.

---

I am glad that your wife's experience turned out to be a false alarm.

What if it hadn't been?

Those dogs would help. A Magnum would help, too -- especially if she knew how to use it.

The problem with weapons like knives, katanas, baseball bats, etc. is that they are of little use against someone armed with a gun -- and that they require one to get in close to use them.

It's actually fairly easy for a large man to take a baseball bat or a knife away from a small woman. He'll then proceed to use it on her.

A small woman with a great big gun is a different story. As long as she's smart, and knows how to properly use the weapon.

Rifles and shotguns are awkward things to use indoors. They are long, stick out, and are therefore clumsy to point around corners, etc.. Not to mention that a long gun is easier for the intruder to grab away from you. A pistol or a carbine is much easier to handle.

Also, it's a bad idea, if you hear noises -- such as the sound of breaking glass -- to leave your bedroom and start walking down the hall or down the stairs to see what's going on. The hallway or the stairs can be a deathtrap. It's best to grab your weapon, and then take cover behind the bed or another large piece of furniture in your bedroom. This forces the intruder to come to you. Let him take all of the risks. Also, you should have a phone handy -- preferably a cell phone that can't have its wires cut outside of your house.

BTW - locking one's doors is always a good idea. Even if you live in a "safe" place. Locking the doors prevents "accidental" intruders -- such as the man you described -- from getting inside to begin with.

It avoids any unnecessary problems and/or misunderstandings.

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 13:42

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 13:44

Message edited on: 02/05/2005 13:48

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

BTW, again -- the value of a large dog is to discourage your average property-theft-minded burgler. Especially when you aren't at home. A single large dog can do this job quite effectively.

On the other hand, if a determined killer/rapist is on the prowl, then you are dealing with a different kind of creature. In that case, several large dogs wouldn't be a bad idea.

Especially for anyone that (for whatever reason) is unwilling to use a gun to defend themselves. In that case, the dogs will do it for you.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"A Magnum would help, too -- especially if she knew how to use it" This is a good point however, when she is in the kitchen and someone knocks on the door she goes into the living room to answer the door. At this point is when the door begins to open and she would have not opportunity to retrieve the "gun". This only leaves the dogs to defend her at that time. "BTW - locking one's doors is always a good idea. Even if you live in a "safe" place. Locking the doors prevents "accidental" intruders -- such as the man you described -- from getting inside to begin with" I would have to agree with this statement. However, we do not lock the doors when someone is home and there is almost always someone home. The other part to this is that I would prefer to have someone steal my belongings than the life of someone in the house. Everything of value that they can steal can either be replaced or lived without except for life. I hold the same thought process with my car. I do not lock the doors as I would rather only have to replace the radio then have to replace the window as well. "Locks only keep honest people honest" In ohter words, if someone wants to steal from you they will regardless of locks. They offer a moderate amount of security but do not overly rely on them. More family members are injured every year by "accident" due to someone thinking that someone is trying to break in than actual criminals by weapons kept near for "security". Pony

Locks slow them down. Locks might give you the time that you need to prepare to receive your "guests".

Also, if the lock is tough enough, it'll discourage amateurs.

We've had a gang of teenaged boys in our local news lately. They were robbing unlocked cars. But if a car was locked, then they left it alone.

Of course, locking things doesn't stop all of them. But it does stop some of them. And it slows the rest of them down. In a critcal situation, slowing them down might make the difference between a desirable outcome.......or not.

The other part to this is that I would prefer to have someone steal my belongings than the life of someone in the house.

Unfortunately, you can't read an intruder's mind. There is simply no way to know exactly what their actual intentions are. They might say "I won't hurt you" just to put you off of your guard. Your life -- not to mention the lives of your family members -- are not things to gamble with. Especially not in favor of an unwelcome invader's well-being.

BTW -- the "Irish Rovers" that were operating in my area a couple of years ago would sometimes approach home owners with offers of performing work -- things like paving driveways, doing yard work, etc........

Once they had convinced the people in the house to open the door, a group of them would rush in and subdue the occupants. They would then proceed to tie them up and viciously beat and rob them.

In a couple of cases, they killed people. In at least one case, they kidnapped someone.

---

I would strongly advise against taking any unnecessary chances. Like leaving doors unlocked.

Of course, it's all up to the individual........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

But the dogs are a Good Thing.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Another thing -----

Ladies:

If you've watched episodes of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", or various other fantasy TV shows and movies (like police dramas, Xena, etc.) ------

You might have gotten the idea that a 95 lb. girl can easily clock a 250 lb. man with little effort. Just one swing, and BANG! -- he's down.

Well.....fantasy is a fun thing. But it can also be an extremely dangerous thing whenever people attempt to apply it in real life.

In real life -- for your average 250 lb. man, wrestling with a 95 to 120 lb. woman is an experience equivalent to play-wrestling with a small child. She simply doesn't stand a chance. It's about like a kitten grabbed by a Rottweiler. I know that some feminist types don't like hearing stuff like this......but that doesn't make it any less of a fact.

There is no such thing as a "battered husband shelter".

Please......don't try fighting off an intruder with a knife. For your own safety.

Use a gun. It works. And while you are at it -- vote Republican. ;-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Guns, knives and steel... oh my. If I may quote Xenophonz: "When the predators know that they can do their thing with impunity, then they rule the world. Or, at least -- they rule your world." Well, when the predators have you so bloody paranoid that you're trapped behind your weapons in your own home, then they own not just your external world, but your internal world as well. Yes, there are horrible, horrible people out there, and they want to hurt other people. But these people really are extremely rare. The average burglar just wants stuff, and hey, stuff can be replaced. All the stuff I have is not worth my life or anybody else's: I'd rather let them have the stuff. If someone threatens someone I love, I'll get between them, and I can be a reckonable force if I have to be, but I will not keep a gun in the house, nor will I go for the cleavers (I do a lot of Chinese cooking, and keep two huge, wickedly sharp cleavers in the house, and I'm pretty good with them. Whack!). In my opinion, 'they' have won the minute they have you running scared. I won't be intimidated. You'd be amazed how well that works.

"You might have gotten the idea that a 95 lb. girl can easily clock a 250 lb. man with little effort. Just one swing, and BANG! -- he's down. Well.....fantasy is a fun thing. But it can also be an extremely dangerous thing whenever people attempt to apply it in real life. In real life -- for your average 250 lb. man, wrestling with a 95 to 120 lb. woman is an experience equivalent to play-wrestling with a small child. She simply doesn't stand a chance. It's about like a kitten grabbed by a Rottweiler. I know that some feminist types don't like hearing stuff like this......but that doesn't make it any less of a fact." really? seen it done mate. there again she was a 4dan black belt ;) and I've seen my sister (120 lbs) deck someone twice her size with a punch and she has no training. sorry, it is quite possible to do. you forgot to add the priviso "unless the circumstances are ideal".

"There is no such thing as a "battered husband shelter"." that I Xenophonz know of. is more correct since there are several in the UK. please.. facts straight or a priviso statement! it saves someone correcting you later on ;)

True and true, Khai. Another thing to bear in mind.

What is this? The Chicken Coop? Red State/Blue State? Right to defend yourself? Battered husband shelters? This is the Poser Forum isn't it? Azreal, sorry you were broken into. I always liked Buffalo. Nice people there.

Shooting someone for stealing your things isn't 'self' defense, it's 'stuff' defense. I'd rather let someone steal my things than take a life. Things can be replaced. Lives cannot. Besides which, here in Australia we don't own guns and it works out quite nicely thank you. Gun deaths are few and far between. I believe the national yearly average is about 300 and that's mostly in the large cities and criminal/police related.

is more correct since there are several in the UK. please.. facts straight or a priviso statement! it saves someone correcting you later on ;) Interesting. I'd hate to see....well, never mind. ;-) I never claimed to be speaking for the UK. They might have such things in the former Soviet Republics also. Places ending in "--stan". I'd be unaware of that fact, too. As for "correcting" me -- when it comes to the UK, I suppose that I stand corrected. Good thing that I live here in the US.........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

well you stated "There is no such thing as a "battered husband shelter"" not what country you were saying such a thing did not exist in. not my fault the US is not taking notice of that problem in domestic violence.. so not really a good thing living in the US if you need it is it?

Shooting someone for stealing your things isn't 'self' defense, it's 'stuff' defense. I'd rather let someone steal my things than take a life. Things can be replaced. Lives cannot.

Once again -- you have no way of knowing that "stuff" is all that they are after.

You takes your picks, and you lives with the results.

---

Gun deaths are few and far between. I believe the national yearly average is about 300 and that's mostly in the large cities and criminal/police related

This is no doubt true, but I'd point out that Australia has a couple of things that the US doesn't......

• a far, far smaller population than the US
• a far more homogenous society than the US

These two things make a difference.

The #2 reason listed above also has a lot to do with the extremely low crime rate in Japan.

In spite of the fact that Japanese entertainment on TV and in movies is much more violent than standard fare here in the US -- the Japanese have a tiny crime rate.

Japan is homogenous. On top of other cultural factors.

---

No, this isn't the 'Coop........

So it's a (relatively) quiet discussion.

And quite a bit OT.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

*well you stated "There is no such thing as a "battered husband shelter"" not what country you were saying such a thing did not exist in.

not my fault the US is not taking notice of that problem in domestic violence.. so not really a good thing living in the US if you need it is it?*

Khai, I couldn't tell you how to get to Trafalgar Square, either. I am no more familiar with the domestic violence policies of the UK than I am with the garbage collection schedule in Blackpool. Not be insulting, but both things have about equal relevance to me......and to this discussion.

It's like pointing out to me that Englishmen have a taste for fish and chips -- it's a nice little tidbit of information: but the subject at hand had to do with methods of self defense here in the US.

As for domestic violence.....once again, I am unfamiliar with the situation in Leeds -- but here in the US, it's 99% about women and children. And there are lots of resources of help available to them. Perhaps not enough -- but that's another issue......and we've strayed far enough off-topic already. Message edited on: 02/05/2005 22:18

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

nit pick - I'm not leeds anymore ;) I left for Canada a year ago :) outta here!

I hope that you are enjoying life in the Great White North. I understand that it's a little cool up there at this time of year...........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Use a gun. It works.

You shouldn't encourge people to have guns laying around, seriously. Do you know how many times a person can actually be arrested if they shot someone who invades their home??? I see it all the time up here in the news. I wouldn't encourage it. Let's put it this way: say the theif has a gun of his own and knows how to use it? Then what? You have to be a very quick draw and if you'e not, he'll kill you before you have a chance to whipout your gun then charges could be broughup against "YOU" for shooting someone. While, up here in the red states that is. Down south, whole different ballgame. Dogs are the way to go. Big ones, not the ankle biters. I hate guns. They only lead to trouble and more violence.

Oh and PS: I'm an Indie voter who always votes Republican lol. :) Message edited on: 02/05/2005 22:26

It's your choice, friend. I've made mine. And others have to make the choices that are right for them. I'm just glad that I live in a state (notice that I didn't say "country") where we have the freedom to make such choices for ourselves. Big Brother doesn't make them for us.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Do you know how many times a person can actually be arrested if they shot someone who invades their home??? I see it all the time up here in the news. I would point out that this has already been dicussed in earlier posts. Some states are free, and allow people to defend themselves legally......other states aren't and don't.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Big Brother 'IS ALWAYS' watching you, no matter what state you live in. ;) (MHO)

These days, that's true.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Australia homogenous? Obviously you don't visit Australian suburbia much LOL I can name at least 5 different races in this town alone, and we only have about 300 people here! And hey, my stepmother to be shudder is a Phillipino (sp?). We aren't as all-caucasian as you think.

No.....but your overall makeup is much more homogenous than the US. And the small population thing has a bearing, too.......

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I hope that you get along OK with your future stepmother.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Some states are free, and allow people to defend themselves legally......other states aren't and don't. As far as I know you can 'legally' register a gun in any state right, red or blue? Not sure what you mean by 'free'. Up here in MA it's illigal to carry a concealled(sp?) weapon of any kind, no guns, knife's etc but you can buy them after you go through all the redtape. It's easier in NH to own a firearm than it is in MA. Guns around kids in the house is not safe. we always had dogs for protection. Never was broken into except for our sh*tbox cars. We had our car stolen and found it the next day with a full tank of gas, go figure, they just left it in a store parking lot. In my town car theft is more popular tham home invasion. (MHO)

Xeno... I think you are assuming that just because someone breaks into your house you are allowed to shoot them. That is not the case. Legally you are allowed to defend your life, but you are not permitted to kill someone just because they intend to deprive you of property. There was a case in WV, State v. Fraley, that had to be tried 3 separate times because the juries could grasp that fact. The intruder in that case was shot 3 times with a shotgun after getting a DVP (domestic violence petition) against the owner of the home so he couldn't legally enter his home. She set up the DVP so she could rob him. When she tried to break in, he shot her twice while standing up nearly severing her arm and busting open one of her breasts. She fell to the floor and he shot her execution style in the head. The juries (mind you this is WV) felt he was in the right since she was trespassing. WV is just about as gun-toting as any other southern state so I would not assume that the kill-the-intruder mentality would hold up in court.

As I indicated in one of my posts above, I lived in MA for about a year -- I worked on an engineering project for a company in Cambridge.

Believe me, I was very aware of MA's restrictive gun laws. At the time, MA had passed a law providing for an automatic jail term if any vehicle -- including out-of-state vehicles -- was caught carrying a gun. This included things such as hunting rifles and shotguns.

I'm unfamiliar with the situation up there now (I lived there about 10 years ago), but that particular state law was under a Constitutional challenge at the time.

Yes.....in MA, I was aware of a case where a man was holding a woman up by her throat in the basement of her house. Choking her. She was able to shoot him. She went to jail for doing it.

That's why I am proud to say that I live in a red state.

I lived in NH, too. And, yes, NH was a red state surrounded by blue -- before we ever had the red state/blue state designation.

NH has been slowly changing. A lot of people from MA have been moving up there. And bringing their ideas with them.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Well Xeno, I'll happy agree to disagree with ya :) But don't start me about that woman my father lives with sigh If she tells me about their sex life one more time (I mean how ick is that! I don't care what race she is I just wish she'd STFU) I may possibly scream loud enough that you hear me all the way over there LOL

PapaBlue --

Once again, you have to take things on a state-by-state basis.

On top of that -- frankly, I don't understand how a case could be tried three separate times if the man was acquitted. That's called Double Jeopardy. And it's un-Constitutional.

Unless if the juries were hung juries.....that would make sense.

---

In any case, it's trite but true:

"I'd rather be tried by twelve than carried by six."

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I empathize with trying to maintain a sense of security over your belongings, but the law is very clear. The point in which premediation and malice occur, the act becomes murder. Whether that is right or wrong is semantics that still need to be ironed out on a case by case basis...

Well Xeno, I'll happy agree to disagree with ya :) But don't start me about that woman my father lives with sigh If she tells me about their sex life one more time (I mean how ick is that! I don't care what race she is I just wish she'd STFU) I may possibly scream loud enough that you hear me all the way over there LOL Whoa. I think that I can understand the difficulties involved here......that would be just a little uncomfortable.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Once again, PapaBlue -- As I've stated before: when someone breaks into your house, you have absolutely no way of knowing what their intentions are. Personally, I don't care to wait around to find out. I've got others besides myself to think of.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

It's not "security over your belongings". It's the lives of yourself and your family vs. the life of an intruder. Some things are too precious to gamble for. And I am not talking about stereo systems and TV sets.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

They were hung-juries... he was not acquitted and in fact was convicted of 2nd degree homicide over 1st degree although there were obvious indications of premeditation and overkill. The hung-juries in the 1st 2 trials involved jury members who were unwilling to convict simply because they thought the defendant was right to shoot in order to defend property. In essence, they were acting on what they would have done rather than what the law was. The judges on the case were very meticulous with the recordso that the conviction would hold up upon appeal. Oddly enough, some of the more grisly crime scene photos were not shown in the trial which lead to the conviction.

"when someone breaks into your house, you have absolutely no way of knowing what their intentions are" This is a given. Nonetheless, you cannot expect the law to necessarily protect you if you use the firearm to shoot an intruder rather than threatening them to vacate. Again, this is a case-by-case issue rather than a state by state.

In the case that you've cited -- based upon the set of facts that you've given -- and knowing nothing else about the particulars on my own.........

I'd tend to suspect that something else was going on between those two. Something more than simple robbery.

The man's actions sound like they went far beyond self-defense. His actions sound more like an act of hate and personal revenge.

And that's a different set of circumstances. It goes into areas other than self-defense against an intruder.

I strongly suspect that those two had a history with each other. She wasn't just some stranger breaking into his house in the middle of the night.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

This is a given. Nonetheless, you cannot expect the law to necessarily protect you if you use the firearm to shoot an intruder rather than threatening them to vacate. Again, this is a case-by-case issue rather than a state by state.

True -- as far as this statement goes. But the trend-lines are obviously different in red states vs. blue.

---

..........let's see -- my life and my family's lives vs. the life of an intruder................

In this game, I wouldn't care to bet against the House.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Attached Link: http://www.defendu.com/questions/quest38.htm

For her to get a DVP, the 2 would have had to have a personal history. I'm not trying to argue with you as I really do agree with your sentiments. The attached link discusses the issue in more depth.

Attached Link: http://www.plusp.com/classroom/lesson12.php

here's another...

Yes....I doubt that she was just someone that happened to break into his house at random.

I suspect that those two "had it in" for each other for some reason.

By contrast, if she had been a total stranger breaking into his house at random....then he might have gotten off. But -- even given that -- I would say that walking up on someone who's been blasted twice by a shotgun, and then shooting them again in the head execution-style goes just a shade beyond what could reasonably be called "self defense".

It sounds more like an act of anger and revenge. And, yes....that would be murder.

---

Gotta go.

Thanks for the spirited and intelligent challenges to my own position, folks.

Goodnight.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Here's my 2 cents worth: If you're going to own a gun simply having it isn't enough. Make sure you know how to use it. If you don't it could be taken away and used against you. Which brings me to point two: make sure if you pick it up and chamber a round, you plan on using it. A gun is a deterrent, but if they're determined enough, or stupid enough to think they're bullet-proof, being unwilling to pull that trigger makes the gun useless. As far as shotguns, the sound of a round being chambered in a shotgun states your intentions quite clearly IMO. Also, it's the very essence of "point and shoot". However, they are far more unwieldy.

I have great sympathy for the original poster. But all this red/blue stuff... You do know that the US, at state level, is mostly shades of purple?