I've just ordered and received the LightTune Module. It's absolutley cool, I'm very happy with it.

But after checkout I was schocked.... E-On is now charging VAT (about 19%) directly on their orders. When I did purchase Vue 4 that wasn't the case at all. I don't mind paying the VAT at all, I think it's very correctly for E-On to do so and leave it up to the customer.

So, I'm not schocked about the VAT at all, but I'm shocked about the fact that I'm paying a lot lot lot more then a person who pays in dollars, I'm paying in Euro's. I know E-On uses the 1=1 currency conversion rate and until now it was kind of defendable, by saying it's due to the vat (taxes) that need to be payed.

But that isn't the case anymore, on top of order I need to pay VAT now. So I've payes 39 euro + VAT now which is $51 and on top of that I need to pay VAT/TAXES. If I could have payed in dollars I would have only payed $39 + VAT/TAXES.

I know for sure now that I'm being ripped of now (I already had the feeling I was), but now I do know for sure. I already was saving up for Vue Infinite, but I'm not going to bey it until I'll be treated fairly. In other words, as much as I love E-On and their products, this has been my last order. It feels a little like thief has just stolen some money from me, money he wasn;t entiltled to..... I don't like that feeling at all.

I'm not angry, but shocked that companies get away with these kinds of business practises I really love to here what the reasoning behind all of this overcharging is? Please don't get mad at me for posting this message, but I really do find this whole matter very very strange. FYI, I've placed the same message on the E-On forums, not sure how long it will saty there, don't know how E-On reacts to something like this....

Message edited on: 02/10/2005 03:48

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

are you saying the price in Euro is 51 PLUS you have to add VAT or the 51 INCLUDES the VAT? ::::: Opera :::::

You still have add VAT to the $51!!! In total I paid $62 for the module! So, converted 39 euro makes $51. I paid over 46 (39 + VAT) euros and that makes $62.

Message edited on: 02/10/2005 04:01

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

VUE5I price has been choosed in Euro. the problem with the ammerican price is that E-ON can't sell VUE5I over 600 dollar.

I think this practice is VERY common for most companies, not only E-on is doing that. Other example. Check the prices for Adobe Photoshop. In Europe and compare it with the American ones. Mostly the argument is the additional efforts for international deals, the costs for localised versions etc etc. And of course for toll and taxes reasons. Regarding the tax situation, i spoke with our logisitic expert here in the office. The situation is - when i understood it correctly - that if you import any software (or music or cigarettes or whatever) to your country you have to pay toll. Full stop. Even for downloaded versions in theory it is like that. You go to your local toll office and declare it. In theory. If you buy it without VAT, then you have to pay your local VAT on top of that in your country. Plus toll maybe (my thought.) Understand me right, i don't defend this practice. I think it would be good to have it more transparent and easier to use. AND, equal advertising laws for example. Here in Germany it is not allowed to give prices without VAT when i remember it correctly. Therefore we are shocked a lot when we realise the real price after buying in foreign countries where this is different. Regarding the exchange rates i have mixed feelings. Nobody would complain if the Dollar is weak and lower than the Euro. As it was a couple of years ago. Nobody would volunteerly pay more because of that. And to change prices whenever the exchange rate changes is very difficult for companies. They would have to change their systems every day. However, of course it is not nice to pay more than expected and more than in other countries. In Germany for example there is even a business for reimporting cars. It is cheaper (for compaines) to export a German car to Italy (for example) and then reimport that to Germany again. And then sell it here. An ongoing discussion about the legality here. And an ongoing discussion why prices are so different in different countries for the same product.

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

Paying VAT is fine I've got no problem with that at all. But the case with E-On is that it's European based. The module I downloaded, didn't come from a US server, but from France based server. The shipped version always have been sent from France to me. So as far as E-On goes, there's no toll and import fees and such, the product is being developped in France, that's why I'm so shocked they operate this way....

I know I can do much about it most likely, I've just placed them on my list of 'not to buy software from anymore' Adobe is on that list too and I'm glad I found a very good alternative for them. Ut's hard to find honest companies, but they are still there, it just takes some time to locate them. I really do hope that Vue Infinite will be available at the R'dosity store too, then I can still get it without being ripped off....

Message edited on: 02/10/2005 04:43

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

This and similar practises are going on for quite some time. The Americans are getting ALWAYS the best deals even from European compagnies. And they always try to explain it through big lies. Time ago I brought up this matter to the CO of Curious Labs, but nothing has changed (ofcause!!). And then these compagnies are fighting against pirated software! Everyone should stop buying from them ... as simple as that ... maybe then and only then will they change their discriminatory practise. Remember Uncle Sam is the big boss.

Compare the market sizes, then you will understand maybe! And separate solutions depending where a customer is living or at what exchange rate the currencies are are VERY difficult to do. Beside the VAT thing that is normed in a way. Buying at Renderosity is a solution of course, even when it probably is not fully legal - if you don't declare the import to your country.

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

a easy solution would actually be to charge in us$ only, eu citizens would still have to pay vat but we would atleast get the same price + vat, not a higher price + vat as it is.

And most countries do pay in us$ when purchasing from e.on so its more then doable.

But people need to keep in mind that a company is about profit, and it makes much more sense to charge european customers in euro since has for a very very long time been worth more then us$, which is the reason why most other countries still pay in us$. As for market size, im pretty sure that eu is just as big or not even bigger then usa when it comes to vue.

Message edited on: 02/10/2005 05:57

Imo, this isn't making profits anymore, they're now single out Europeans (Euro and pound currency users) and overcharge them, while the rest of the world still pays in dollars. Again paying VAT can't be avoided, but then at least the base price should be the same and that's not the way it is at the moment.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

By the way..... "Buying at Renderosity is a solution of course, even when it probably is not fully legal - if you don't declare the import to your country." Even if I would pay custom charges, I'm still going to pay a lot less. When I buy V5I from E-On it will cost me $939 !!!! as a European user. That inclused vat/taxes. If I could buy from R'dosity I Would pay $599 + $114 (tax) + $50 (custom charges) = $763 E-On is overcharging me $939 - $763 = $176 !!!! Which ever way you turn that, that's just horrible. They steal money from me for no reason at all....

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I've been mailing to e-on and posting on their forum regarding this issue several times. They are aware of the frustrations they cause, and tolerant of criticism in this regard, but clearly have no intention of changing anything. All I got was the promise that pricing policies will also not be changed when the dollar becomes more expensive than the Euro - as if that is going to happen as long as Bush remains in office... For e-on, this is just a clever way of making sure customers rather than their company bear the costs of fluctuating exchange rates. Well, I suppose you can't hold it against a company that they want to make money. What I do hold against them and find downright misleading is the advertising, which ONLY mentions dollars. The euro pricing and additional costs only become clear once you're well inside the ordering process. If e-on thinks their pricing policy is reasonable and fair, then why are they hiding it on their website pages?? The only solution, if you don't like this: don't buy their stuff. I'm not going to anymore. I've had it with being ripped off. But as you can see, hosts of Vue users go into fits of hysterics the moment a new product is released, and buy it anyway. E-on knows that, and benefits from it. The least you can say is that they have some great psychologists over there...

I understand paying VAT and i dont mind but E-on wont ever get any money out of me again until they have one price for Vue and not two ,E-on seem to be a really crappy company when it comes to europe which is a joke for a european company ,Shame really because infinite looks great and a couple of us not wanting to get ripped off doesn't mean E-on will stop rippin off does it ,Oh well i can hope Bryce 5.5 is good but i doubt it ;)

I suggest the world go back on the Gold Standard, get all governments out of the world economy, destroy government control of money and achieve laissez faire capitalism. ::::: Opera ::::: P.S. I will let this statement stand as is and will not argue it here (OT) but I am serious that this is in fact the proper solution.

Another thing aswell ,Now i dont mind paying VAT because its the norm here in the UK but if im paying the VAT on this product from E-on is the VAT actually going to the UK government ,It would be my responsibility to pay it if their not so ? Also i have just checked a few sources and here in the UK (I know E-ON aren't in the UK) it would actually be ilegal for a company to charge a different rate to people just because of the currency they use ,All prices must be calculated from the exchange rate of the day ,Its a shame E-ON dont have to abide by these rules ;)

"The only solution, if you don't like this: don't buy their stuff. I'm not going to anymore. I've had it with being ripped off." MartinPh, I totally agree with you, I'm not buying at E-On anymore. Vue 5 Infinite sure looks good, but I can live without, I have for the past 35 years :-) I'm fed up with being ripped of too (as stated before) and E-On is on my 'black list' alongside with Adobe, Curious Labs and a number of other companies.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I can't remember how many friend of mine came back from the united states with a lot of new stuff. Why? Because approximately all is cheaper in the US, and what I remember date from long time when 1$ = 1.5 (in fact 1$ was equal to 10francs) and even at this time things were cheaper (with or without VAT). A levis trousers for half the price than in France, idem for Quicksilver tshirt, the same for a camera, and I have a lot of other examples (even for software;-))... I don't wonder if e-on are fair or not (and you aren't that fair with them). I will continue buying their products because I think the price is not that expensive for the product you get. I will continue to buy Photoshop even if it is 169$ - 249 for upgrading... It is an habit here in France to pay everything more than in the US, so I wonder why you complain, or maybe your fulltime job is to complain! I read another forum here at renderosity, and I don't remember people crying this way for pricing policy of the other company, not because those company are doing better price but just because this people are not cryer, or maybe not jealous. If you stop buying things that cost more in your country rather than in others, I can imagine your insipid life!

Antycon, I'm really sorry to hear that everything in your country (France) is much more expensive then in the US, perhaps you're not crying enough..... A good pc over here isn't more expensive then one in the US, actually most pc's are more expensive in the US. My household appliances are not more expensive either, nor is my house or rent and so on and so on.... Most of the companies I do buy software from in US, give me a fair currency exchange and don't overcharge me at all. So if they do not do so, then E-On has not to do it either. They've chosen to do so and that's fine with me. But the money I do spent is mine and I would be a fool not to spent it wisele, after all I can only spent it once. For the money that E-On overcharges me, I can buy a lot of other cool things and I rather do so. You're welcome to pay any company you want, buy anywhere you want, pay to much of you want..... I'm just saying that often there are altenatives and I rather choose those and spent the money saved somewhere else.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I've got a reply from E-On on this matter: "Europe is a more expensive market for us because everything is more expensive there: you have to pay all sorts of taxes (and not only VAT), resellers and distributors expect larger commissions, you have to cater for many different countries with lots of different regulations, different languages, etc. Plus, we need to pay our guys in Europe (we tried to pay them in Dollars, but they didn't like the idea of losing over 20% ;-). Take a look around, even now that the Euro is worth more than the Dollar, you will see that a lot of companies are charging more in Euros (without VAT) than in Dollars (examples? 3DS Max: $3,495 - EUR4,250+VAT, Photoshop: $649 - EUR729+VAT, Flash: $499 - EUR599+VAT). I'm afraid there is no simple solution to this problem. But we have committed to keeping the exchange rate at 1 to 1 even if the exchange rate drops. Is Vue worth its cost in Euros? Only you can answer. But the fact that people in the US are paying less should not be part of the equation - because almost everything is cheaper here (except wine, maybe ;-). After all, we don't even have sales taxes in Oregon!" I'll just add a few comment to it and then I'll leave the matter as is..... I had to laugh a little about this one sorry.... I'm not buying from resellers and distributors nor are the many languages and regulations a problem..... Why not? First of all, I'm buying directly from E-On and NOT through any resellers and distributors. Secondly I do live in the European Union where a uniform import and export policy is used in all of it's member countries. Thirdly, even if other companies do it, does that suddenly make it right to do so. Fourthly, if ever the euro would start dropping very low and become unstable, I'm pretty sure that this 1=1 policy will be abandoned very quickly again, after all E-On doesn't want to give their products away almost for free. When the currency of the euro was still very low, no one (including E-On) had a problem with me paying in dollars and actually refused the euro. But after the euro started rising and it became clear that this riseng might take a long time, suddenly a number of companies (including E-On) felt the need to enforce this 1=1 policy.... How very very convenient. Some of the reason brought forth are valid, but these reason do not cause a 60% increase of the price to pay. Most of the reason brought forth are not valid at all and those are mainly being used to validate the price difference. I'm sorry to hear that the unfair policy will remain. I'll leave this matter as it is now, everyone can make his/her conclusion from all of this. Mine is not to buy from E-On anymore and may the need arise for an upgrade, I'll have to start looking for an alternative. By that time Bryce may have caught up and some people at DAZ have already stated that they think that all of this overcharging is not correct at all and will continue to use one currency only, the US Dollar.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I think you constantly ignore the important message there - by purpose i would say. TAXES. To ignore that and for example import illegally stuff from USA may be a solution for you, but you can't really expect an international operating company to do that. And you really expect that E-on gives you another price as from a reseller? Do you have any - and i mean ANY - example where it is like that? No reseller would accept that. Again, beside the fact that you may ignore your regional tax laws of course and don't declare the stuff you buy in a foreign country. However it is. Let's bet. In one year time you will have Infinite. And bought it from E-on - through whatever channel.

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

"However it is. Let's bet. In one year time you will have Infinite. And bought it from E-on - through whatever channel." OK, let's bet for a copy of Vue 5 Infinite that I won't have upgraded my Vue 5 to Vue Infinite within a year :-) If I haven't upgraded within a year, you'll buy me VI ;-)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

You wish. But let's bet for an image i will then do for you - in Vue Infinite!

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

OK, if I do purchase V5I within a year I'll make an image for you in V5I and if I don't buy it within a year, you create me an image in V5I. So, talk to you on February 11th 2006 again..... regarding this issue :-)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Or earlier - when you have bought it! :-)))

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Products/VueIndex.php "Vue Infinite $599" - THAT is the problem. If it said "Vue Infinite $599 / 599" I would be done complaining. It is these double standards that bother me: putting up a show in your advertising, and tucking away extra costs in deep dark corners of your site. If e-on had a clean conscience about their pricing policies they wouldn't need to do this. And if they would offer all their products as downloads, they wouldn't need expensive resellers or distributors. The line about having to cater to many different countries in Europe also rings false - why, then, does the rest of the world pay in US$, just like US customers? Amazon.com does not charge me differently because I happen to live in Europe... VAT may be inevitable (I'm not sure it actually is), but is calculated over the price in the country of origin. So I pay 19% tax over a euro-priced product - even there I pay more because e-on refuses to use a single currency. It may seem futile, but for a package priced 599 these differences really count. In fact, at today's rate (1.32 dollars per euro), in all I would pay $220,- more for the same product than an American customer would. I prefer to spend that money on other things than e-on's clever but self-serving pricing tricks. "Others are doing it too" - what kind of an excuse is that? I got my SketchUp upgrade for the exact $95 that were advertised, and not one cent more, not even in taxes. The bottom line is that a product has a single real value, which includes your marketing, distribution and other costs of running your company in the way you choose. For customers there should be just one single price.

I repeat myself. You all ignore the legal situation. And do not want to hear it at all. Even when you download a software you are importing it. Maybe you ask a lawyer about the tax situation for something like that. Other example. What do you think is the reason why Apples music store (or other music stores) does not allow the download from all over the world? Just because they don't want to do more business? Legal issues. Copyright, taxes etc etc.

One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.

The legal issue is an important one but the legal facts are that any taxes owed from a purchase from the US are the responsibility of the purchaser not the vendor ,Now the fact that you are bringing taxes up shows that E-Ons scheme is working ,Taxes have no relevance atall on this complaint because of the massive price difference even before taxes are added ,So lets recap forget all the taxes and import costs and so on and people in europe are still paying more than those in the US ,I dont think there would be any complaints if it were just a Tax or import issue but it isn't ,Also dont fall into a trap where you can say well just dont buy it because the fact of the matter is that several magazines here in the UK have mentioned these price differences and find it difficult to understand too ,Now if E-ON are stupid enough to imagine that this constant overcharging of a particular customer base will go on and on they are sadly mistaken ,This is a very fickle industry and E-ON can not rely on just its hobbyist following to survive ,If bryce comes out supporting DAZ studio and then animated characters and so on possibly even matching some of infinites features why would people pay more for a similar product ,The fact of the matter is that E-ON need to choose a currency and stick with it because the only possible reason that they could have for keeping two currencies is that they are making extra money.

May i respectfully ask...do those of you who live in Europe pay a 19% VAT tax on everything you purchase, and at the same time you have full-blown progressive income tax on what you earn?

::::: Opera :::::

Message edited on: 02/11/2005 10:34

"May i respectfully ask...do those of you who live in Europe pay a 19% VAT tax on everything you purchase, and at the same time you have full-blown progressive income tax on what you earn?" Yes, 19% on everything we do buy, on gasoline, cars, wine/beer and sigaretes even much more then 19% There's also low tax rate for things like property and some other items. At the same time we do have full-blown progressive income tax on what we earn, between 35% and 50% depending on your earnings..... So in this whole E-on case, first of all they charge us a lot more for the base product, since 1 eur is not equal to 1 dollar at all and on top of that they add taxes. Wabe is completely wrong in this whole issue, for V5I we will pay 599 euros (=$790) and on top of that the appropiate taxes are added during checkout! I'm not sure why he keeps on bringing back this whole issue, but he obviously has not read the posts carefull enough. So, in my case V5I will be $790 + taxes $150 = $940 + shipping and handling.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

First..I am not on anybody's side in this thread, I am just an observer and am learning.. if a company "charges you more" for something because the euro is not equal to the dollar, are they really "charging you more?" Aren't they just 'including' the exchange rate in the purchase price? ::::: Opera :::::

operaguy, with all of this please keep in mind that the dollar is far less worth then the euro.... thanks to Bush :-)

"if a company "charges you more" for something because the euro is not equal to the dollar, are they really "charging you more?" Aren't they just 'including' the exchange rate in the purchase price?"

That would be totally fair, no problem with that. But with E-On (and a number of other companies) they do not take in consideration the exchange rate at all. They just say, one dollar equals one euro. Of course that isn't the case at all... that's what the whole debate is about.

E-On claims that this is due to a number of reasons, like taxes, resellers fees and such, but the whole strange thing is that the tax is being charged on top of the stated price and we cannot buy E-On from resellers in Europe at all.

It all started when the euro became much more worth then the dollar. When the dollar was worth more all of these companies made us pay in dollars, giving us a fair exchange rate, that was handled by our credit card issuers. As soon as the dollar dropped, they all decided to let us pay in euros or uk pounds, but nor giving us the fair exchange rate at, but a 1=1 exchange rate.

Suddenly resellers, taxes and who knows what became an issue for all of these companies, while they were a non issue before. The most strange thing is that the rest of the world still pays all of these companies in us dollars.

That's why some of the European users are very angry, suddenly we're singled out and pay outrages prices. We're being told all kinds of reasons why this has to happen, most af them have never been an issue at all and still are non existant, just lame excuses..... for ripping us off!

Message edited on: 02/11/2005 12:13

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

"if a company "charges you more" for something because the euro is not equal to the dollar, are they really "charging you more?" Aren't they just 'including' the exchange rate in the purchase price?" No, that's just the point. If you convert the price in Euros to the price in USdollars Europeans are paying a lot more than Americans. V5I costs $599 or 599 (approx $770) or 411 (approx $767) That's before tax or p&p, so you can see in real terms we're paying nearly 30% more. From what I understand though this is due to the distributors expecting higher markups. It is likely that Eon has an agreement with their European distributors not to undercut them, hence the higher price. I agree it's not right but the price difference is much greater on other products (I'm thinking about buying a Canon camera that retails for $199 or cheaper in the US and 170 in the UK. That's about $317!) There really isn't much we can do about it! :o( - Baz

"It is likely that Eon has an agreement with their European distributors not to undercut them, hence the higher price." So they claim, but the funny thing is you cannot buy Vue on the mainland Europe at all, except through E-On itself. They may have some distributors in the UK, but in most of the European countries (scandinavia, benelux and germany just to name a view) they don't have any distributors or resellers at all. Do they actually have them in the UK or even in the US?

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Oops, cross posted there!

NP.....

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

"Do they actually have them in the UK or even in the US? " I don't know, I just assumed they did!

Attached Link: http://www.e-onsoftware.com/Order/Distributor.php

Actually, you can buy e-on products from other sources in both the uk and mainland europe. Prices are comparable, but what extra taxes there are to pay, I dont know, other than UK VAT is 17.5% and not the same as the blanket 19% for europe as previously stated. In fact Germany has the highest number of resellers, I think!

Message edited on: 02/11/2005 12:55

well, I am interested in penetrating into the numbers of your discussion, so that's good reading. I am still trying to grasp the complexity. But I was hoping to avoide comments like this "operaguy, with all of this please keep in mind that the dollar is far less worth then the euro.... thanks to Bush :-)" since I am far to the right of President Bush and have a completely opposite opinion of why the Euro has inflated up 30% do to the fault of Europe. We should perhaps avoid those comments, since the last time I defend the US the attacks on me were so intense they had to freeze the thread. Soo.....taking the focus off "that the customer is paying more" and being outraged, let me ask you all this. Who should bear the burden of the exchange rate? Yes, you may be outraged that E-On is attempting to maneuver to make you pay it (I am not saying they are...I don't know), but aren't you basically thinking that THEY should bear it? How is that anymore morally correct? ::::: Opera :::::

Operaguy, I think you are missing the point. Exchange rates describe the relative value of one currency to the next. When one uses the current exchange rate to translate, say, a US$ price to a Euro price, there is no burden. It is just calculating fair market price. However, e-on has fixed the exchange rate at 1 US$ to 1 Euro (not the current exchange rate since the Euro is worth more). Hence, e-on is making more money on European customers for no good reason (because it is before taxes). There doesn't need to be any "burden" when it comes to these things. One only needs to use accepted fair market practices.

I should add that this is all easily solved if they would only charge US$ and let the credit card companies apply the exchange rate. This would be easiest for everybody.

I can't help myself. I don't wish to make this thread into a political one, but believe me that my comments are not political. Operaguy, the fact that the Euro is worth much more than the US$ right now has little to do with European policy. All you have to do is look at the fact that the US$ has dropped significantly compared to almost all world currencies. It is an indisputable fact that the US currently has an implicit low dollar policy. End of story.

It is easy to see how indefensible E-on's policy (and that of many other companies) is, if you consider that were they to act consistently, they would have to sell V5I in Chili for 599 pesos and in India for 599 rupees.

karlm, I am listening carefully to your explanation. Would you say that "staying at 1 to 1" by a company could be contstrued as "making hay" out of the exchange rate instead of going with its fluctuations? ::::: Opera :::::

'end of story'....well, if you mean 'end of what I want to say on this forum, we shouldn't engage here' no problem. 'end of story' as in Q.E.D opera can have no possible rational answer to what I just said, that is not accurate or acceptable. ::::: Opera :::::

Yes, I would say that sticking to 1:1 is taking advantage of the situation since the actual rate is so far from 1:1. If a company is offering a product to consumers in multiple currencies, it is unreasonable to ask that they continually update the prices according to the exchange rate. What is reasonable is that it would stay fixed as long as it remains within a certain bracket. For example, stick to 1:1 if the rate stayed within a 1:0.9 and 1:1.1 bracket. But once it sways far out of the bracket (and for an extended period) it's time to update the price to maintain market fairness.

As MartinPh pointed out, their 1:1 policy just seems too opportunistic.

End of story, as in the US$ has dropped compared to the Euro due to changes in American policies, not European. Ask any economist. This can be easily seen by looking at the exchange rate between US$ and other first world currencies (the US$ has gone down significantly in almost all cases). This is hardly debatable. What is debatable is whether this is a good policy for Americans and American business. I don't really have any interest in debating this. (btw, I'm neither American nor European in citizenship)

Europe is a more expensive market for us because everything is more expensive there: you have to pay all sorts of taxes (and not only VAT)

Get your governments to lower your taxes.

It's really not that hard to understand. Unfortunately, people always insist on making simple things complicated.

Lower taxes = lower prices all the way around.

Pretty much everything costs more in Europe. Because businesses are forced to pay more in order to operate there. Socialistic governmental policies always come at a high price. This translates into higher food prices, higher prices for audio CD's.......higher, higher, higher.

Rage about the unfairness of it all. Or do something about it -- and step away from the socialism. Lower the tax structure.

Until then.....we'll continue to pay far less for everything on this side of the pond.

I'd like to feel sympathy for my European cousins on this issue......but they keep voting the socialists into power, and then complaining about the results.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

It's past 2:00AM where I am, but I'll take a minute and share a couple of brief stories (I have others).

At one point, I worked on contract for Michelin here in the US. My position brought me into regular contact with both Englishmen and Frenchmen.

A surprising number of the English and French engineers would arrive here in the US, and then immediately purchase a Chevrolet Corvette. The Corvette seemed to be a dream vehicle for many of them......the quintessential American car.

A British engineer informed me that once his work term was done in Alabama, then he intended to ship his new Corvette back to England with him. However -- he indicated to me that he would end up spending most of his time looking at the thing while it sat in his garage, collecting dust. He wouldn't be able to afford to drive it much over there -- what with the high cost of both insurance and heavily-taxed gasoline (petrol). The car would be a conversation piece for him over there: and that was about it.

Another story: over the years, I've had many German co-workers that I've gotten to know through my work. Some of them have become very close friends with me and my family. We've stayed in touch even after they've moved back to Germany.

Almost without exception, after the Germans have come to this country, and lived and worked here for a year or more.........then they don't want to go back home. Nearly as one, they and their families all want to stay over here.

That's tough, let me tell you. I've hated seeing some of my best friends have to go back.

Why did they so badly want to remain in the US? Why?

I wonder.............

Message edited on: 02/12/2005 01:28

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Hi Xeno, good to see you over here! karlm, first, thank you for simply and rationally representing the facts. I find it difficult, being on the other side of the mirror, to get anyone on the other side to discuss this issue calmly, and your cool, smart explanations on this thread are helpful. I guess your 'bracket' theory of what would be fair is itself fair enough. That is, 'fair' in the context of playing the internation system game. Let's let the 'keep my company's prices close to equivelent of the exchange rate' issue ride for the moment. Back to factual about the US vs. The World. I stipulate that the FACT you are standing on is perfectly accurate. The US Dollar is indeed variant in one direction against The World at this time. So, point established. No problem. However, I offer for your consideration that just for one moment anyone coming from the "The Dollar Is Weak And The US Monetary Policy Is Wrecking The World Economy" point of view 'put on another set of glasses' very much like the Thought Experiments employed when we all attempt to grasp the Theory of Relativity. The Dollar is strong and the rest of the world's currencies are revealing their innate weaknesses. I assure you it is pure coincidence that the posts above by XENOPHONZ arrived here just as my conversation with you arrived at this point. As a matter of fact, he and I do not agree on other matters! It's not a conspiracy. However, I am in agreement with the gist of his two posts. Rather than restate them, I will just restate one point. The World, seeing this situation, is enraged with the US. They are screaming for the US governmnet to slam its citzens with taxes and more 'statism' and end this holdout. Perhaps, for once in history, the US Government is not cooperating. ::::: Opera :::::

I'm going to play devil's advocate here :-) What if e-on thinks the euro price is the correct value for their products? They are losing money on all those paying in dollars! They should price everything in euros!

Seriously though. The problem isn't the taxes, that's just a fact of life. The problem is fixed pricing and the lack of competition between resellers/distributors and even products. Often there's only one reseller/distributor in a country and you can't buy from other countries: monopoly and no need to compete on pricing/service. BTW - that list of reseller's on e-on's website seems rather outdated. Try to find Vue on some of those German ones, and would you honestly buy from the Dutch reseller? And then there is no viable alternative to Vue (OK, in my opinion), so there's no competition between products either. If you want to edit photos, you can get Photoshop. Or get Paint Shop Pro at a fraction of the cost (or even other/cheaper/free alternatives) - and you can actually shop around for these products because there are many different resellers. Let's hope the next versions of Bryce and Terragen will be really good...

As a professional user I only pay for usability with respect to the software I'm using (FormZ, Lightwave, MAX). FormZ and MAX are way more expensive in Euro's. I did not even blink an eye for paying the higher price since these programs are base packages I need for doing my work. In regards to other software the prices are also competitive, even with this high price.

Vue5 Infinite however is NOT a base package. It simply is some plugin which I may add to my toolset. I even can do ALL things in the software mentioned above: with help of HDInstance for Lightwave and VRay, FinalRender and Maxwell for MAX I can even do the same thing like the EcoSystem in Vue. These products are offered in Dollars, even if most developers are based in Europe. If I put this against the EURO price of V5I, I can only conclude that I will throw away a lot of money. I may be wrong of course and there REALLY are professional users which are gonna use V5I as a base package, but I seriously doubt that. I know some professional users who are either hospitalized or visiting shrinks after a week in Vue4Pro ;)

Then there is the real EURO-DOLLAR issue. All Europeans are aware of the LOW dollar exchange, and by that are focused on buying as much as possible in this currency. Instead of taking advantage of the greater willingness of these people to buy more goods just because of this fact, some companies discourage this behaviour by offering their product against a 1:1 ratio. With me it does ring a bell, that I should at least investigate its value more thorougly. If V5I was offered as a downloadable version for $595 worldwide, I just would have bought it without blinking an eye (again:)). I wonder what's the reasoning behind this, since there are lots and lots of companies that offer their products worldwide in $$.

Finally I have some other thoughts about E-ON's motives. I don't know ANY professional that buys point-zero softwares against regular prices BEFORE it is released. Most companies at least have an INTRODUCTION OFFER for some months, which would draw a lot of these users accross the line. This really makes me wonder if V5I is not just a smart marketing trick to make more money from less professional (I'm NOT saying hobbyists;)) users. It would make all this much more plausible. Maybe V5I is a great product, but V4Pro was a big JOKE :D I even passed to take over someone's Vue4Pro license for 100 DOLLARS !!!!

Message edited on: 02/12/2005 04:44

Sorry i dont normally get involved in tittle tattle but did somebody really say that when Europeans visit the US they never want to leave ,Whoever thinks that is very mistaken and i mean VERY MISTAKEN ,I take an extremly large crew over to the US all the time and i can only say that every single last person cant wait to get out of that place ,The crew is built up from a lot of different countries and not one of em ever wants to stay ,The fact that there are people that are going to come on a thread and tell us how great the US is and thats why its cheaper is absolutly ridiculous ,Im absolutly stunned that it has actually been said ,I finally understand how GB got back in.

I should have added i enjoy visiting America to work and am far from hating the place but the facts are that in a recent world poll the US was officially unveiled as the most hated country in the history of the planet ,This may be due to the fact that there are so many people on the planet now but perhaps it might put this whole USA is better than the rest of the world thing into perspective. Hey if the US is so loved by Europeans then why have we got "Come visit USA" on every TV break and why does the US government now fund upto 85% of fuel costs on plane flights from Europe . Like i said i dont like tittle tattle but then again i dont like people attacking Europeans and talking absolute shit.

please cite that "recent world poll" at once. ::::: Opera :::::

what are the figures, one wonders, for Americans getting fed up with our nation, and officially moving to Europe. Not to mention giving up their US Citizenship. Are you infested with expatriated Americans over there? ::::: Opera :::::

Were not infested with anything and i didn't say i dislike america myself but if you think that everyone in the world loves america you have a big shock awaiting you ,If you actually believe after what has happened in recent times that americas relationships with the rest of the world are unhurt then you are fooled ,Im not here to moan about the US but then why do people on this thread decide to moan about Europe because the Europeans have an opinion on something ,Im sorry but just because we fall in line a lot with america does not mean that we have to do so on every issue and certainly not this one which is so biased ,Im actually ashamed that a thread on a GFX forum has been dragged into this debate but it has and it was by an american not me ,If you would like to review the poll i mentioned you will have to track it down through a paper called the Times here in the UK ,Sorry but it wasn't important enough for me to keep the paper ,If you actually believe however that this isn't actually a true claim just think about it and stop kidding yourself. This isn't america versus the rest of the world here you know it was an open discussion about differences in prices at E-ON until someone had to pop up and say hey its your fault you live in Europe ,That is absolute rubbish and just shows the level of thought that went into making the statement ,The fact that you are arguing a point about americas popularity just goes to show that you know nothing about the world feeling outside america ,Perhaps this is the fault of your press who knows but dont be fooled into thinking that america is loved world over because it really isn't.

I should add though that we do have quite a lot of americans living here in the UK ,Especially funnily enough very famous popstars Madonna Britney and so on. Perhaps they're the only ones that can afford to live in out terrible economic systems ?

Message edited on: 02/12/2005 07:44

did Madonna and Britney give up their US citizenship? ::::: Opera :::::

I would like operaguy to explain how the US$ dropping against the world's currencies is because: "The Dollar is strong and the rest of the world's currencies are revealing their innate weaknesses." This should be interesting... I would like to bring myself in-line with bungle here. Nobody was bashing America and nobody was complaining about anything that really had to do with living in "socialist" Europe (remember we are talking about before tax prices). I'm not sure why it had to be dragged down that path. My side point was that the low US$ is current US government policy. This is well known. They will not state it explicitly because some Americans won't like it. But, their intention is to try to diminish the negative impact of the massive trade deficit that the US has to deal with by making US goods cheaper to buy. I know it has worked on me because I've bought more photography equipment from the US as a result of it. Of course, the stuff wasn't actually made in the US....

Im not sure what kind of rules you think your government has but no-one is expected to give up there citizenship from the US or the UK when they move abroad ,I dont really see what that has to do with E-ONs pricing structure either ?

Speaking only for myself, and please remember there are two of us responding, I am not dragging the conversation down, I actually have been attempting to understand the specific 1:1 problem, and offer a deeper solution (see post 14 above.) There is, yes, one specific here: the issue of whether E-On should stay at 1:1 or instead have a different price in Euros. However, the underlying problem of why these currencies are changing against the dollar is certainly involved. If the were no increasing gap, then 1:1 would be fine, right? All I suggested is that within the framework of the FACT of the gap, that it is just as easy to describe it as World Currencies inflating against the solid dollar as it is "The World is just fine, healthy, strong capitalist free economies with good fiscal health, and the US Dollar is weak." I don't have to explain anything. You just have to see the exact same facts a different way. Since you are "in-line with bungle," that logically means you hold the view that the World hates America. Not that YOU do, but that The World does. This veiw colors people's interpretation of the widening gap. They are so indoctrinated to disparage the US, they are on automatic US bashing mode. They see it (blindly) as "the Dollar is weak." I say, World Currencies are inflated. As to the emotions that seem to have been stired up at the suggestion that Europeans lower taxes and reduce socialism as the solution to the exchange gap? You are responding as if insulted. Now, put the glasses on again, look the other way: imagine our emotions when your governments and intelligensia DEMAND, practicaly scream at us to deploy gigantic tax increases and to deform our monetary policy. Now, I have to take the following position. This is my last post on this thread. Therefore you will have the final word, no problem. The reason it is my last post is that the tone of the last two responses from you begins to depart the former calm argument and descends down the road of negativity. I am not going to be party to another thread freeze and get a warning from the Renderosity moderators. I will not respond to anything else. So, good night to you all. ::::: Opera :::::

Sorry but your just wrong the world dislikes america for various reasons and its economic policie is just one of them ,This thread is about E-ONs economic policy towards Europe so your waffling about governments and such really has no bearing atall.

lol, some of you guys are just paranoid.....thats all I got to say....sry..... sometimes unfair pricing is just unfair pricing....but I guess thats just the way life is.....the question is somehow classical: to buy or not to buy.... :p just my two cents ;)

Not all software companies uses 1:1. I bought XSI Foundation a while ago and payed ((Price in $ * Correct currency rate) + shipping + European tax). I'm a happy buyer ;) When it comes to V5I i will get it, but it's just because I allready have V4P so the cost will be acceptable even at 1:1. Had I not had V4P then there would be no chance that I would buy it. Hmmm, European taxes... As allready mentioned her it's not the taxes whe are complaining about, I could even consider to pay more. It's the price before taxes. It's seems to Our American frieds that whe just pays are taxes straight out in the air, the fact is that whe also get money back. Whe have (depending of country) low cost or free, medical care, dental care, child care, school, social security etc... As a comparison, sending the kids to higher school in US might cost as more than a house cost while doing the same in Europe might cost about the same as a small cars. So, no thank you I do prefer my current country over the US. Just say no to Software Pirates!!!! (And that includes I do both kinds of them)

I've been a bit distracted by other matters for the last several days, so I haven't checked back in on this thread until now......let's see..........

Sorry i dont normally get involved in tittle tattle but did somebody really say that when Europeans visit the US they never want to leave

Hmmmmm. Since no one said that, you must be arguing with the wind.

What I actually did say was:

In my personal experience, and in the experience of many others that I know -- nearly all of the Germans (another slight mis-attribution on your part: I did not say "Europeans") that I have worked with in the US ended up wanting to remain here. Badly, in some cases.

Interpet the matter as you will......but the circumstances remain the same.

BTW - it's also a bit trickier if one does not speak the language.

I should add though that we do have quite a lot of americans living here in the UK ,Especially funnily enough very famous popstars Madonna Britney and so on.

You are more than welcome to them.

Madonna & Britney. What shining examples for the rest of us.

Madonna must have taken a break from chanting "CH....CH.....CH.......CHYR......NO......BEL!!!!!!" at Kabbalah sessions in order to tour the backstreets of London.

Nothing against London.....too bad that they have to deal with the likes of Madonna. The Royals are embarassing enough by themselves.

Perhaps they're the only ones that can afford to live in out terrible economic systems ?

Could be. It's a possibility.

Sorry but your just wrong the world dislikes america for various reasons and its economic policie is just one of them

The "world" is a very mixed brew.

Personally, I like the taste of the drink in North Carolina. Or in Texas.

In the end, it'll be up to us to fix the mess, anyway.

Our continental European cousins don't like it: but we are the ones who will stop the bad guys. It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

Our British friends are in there, too. So far -- they've been up for the job when and where it's counted. I repeat: so far.

The Aussies, too. Especially the Aussies.

Credit must be given where credit is due.

---

As for the central point of this thread:

It's a fait accompli. One can complain about the price of software (i.e. -- of doing business) in Europe. But until one is willing to do something about the situation where it counts -- in the voting booth, and in matters of national economic policy -- then it's like griping about the wind blowing.

And it's about as useful.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Hmmm, European taxes...
As allready mentioned her it's not the taxes whe are complaining about, I could even consider to pay more. It's the price before taxes.

The prices are driven by the taxes.....as well as by other matters.

A high tax on gasoline makes software cost more.

When it comes to the economy, things are tied together.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

It's seems to Our American frieds that whe just pays are taxes straight out in the air, the fact is that whe also get money back. Whe have (depending of country) low cost or free, medical care, dental care, child care, school, social security etc...

Oh, there's a cost involved, alright.

High unemployment rates; lack of incentive to start a business (it costs too much, so why bother?); long waiting lists for badly-needed medical procedures (come to the US, you won't have to wait in line).........not to mention high prices on items like V5I.

Sure. Just jump on the government-provided gravy train, and then get everything for "free". It works. Uh-huh.

BTW - I don't want to "get my money back". I want to decide for myself how I am going to spend it. Not through the on-high agency of decisions made by government bureaucrats. I'd rather have the freedom to make my own choices.

As a comparison, sending the kids to higher school in US might cost as more than a house cost while doing the same in Europe might cost about the same as a small cars.

Oh, we could start a different OT thread about the cost of education......and who should be responsible for paying for it.

Yes, education costs in this country are too high. But the reasons have little to do with tax policy. The reasons have to do with government being involved in areas where it shouldn't be.

When the government gets involved, prices go up. And things get more complicated.

Doctors used to make house-calls. And they charged $5.00 for the effort.

Something must have changed in the meantime.

So, no thank you I do prefer my current country over the US.

No problem. That's to be expected -- and nothing is wrong with such an attitude.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Please keep this thread on topic. Renderosity is an artists community not a political forum. Posts continuing in this vein are likely to result in this thread being locked. BazC - Renderosity coordinator

My apologies in advance for those who feel they have to respond and will not be able to - this thread has deviated far too much from the original discussion (Pricing difference between US and Europe fr e-on software). And unfortunately, it has become too polarized. Yes - it is unfair. It is a business practice - some company chose to apply it. Some do not. Some are even worse at it. No - it is not just about making money at the expense of Europeans. Reality is often a lot more complicated than that. Try to run a business and you will find out that, sometimes, you are taking unpopular decisions for all sorts of reasons. Yes - I am 'censoring' this debate in some ways. This is part of my function as a moderator - keeping this place as welcoming as possible :) Please check out the appropriate section in the Vue Forum FAQ (link at the top of this page). I left this discussion go as long as it did to see how far it could go without degenerating. I believe it has gone far enough :) Thanks in advance for your understanding Agiel - Vue Forum Moderator

• agiel - www.linfa.net