zulu9812 opened this issue on Feb 20, 2005 · 75 posts
zulu9812 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:02 AM
Taking a look at CL's website and Poser 6 full retails at $239, €219 and 150. Doing a quick currency conversion at http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi I came up with this:
$239 = €182.841 = 126.174
As you can see, continental europeans lose out by around €36, and us brits lose out by about 24 quid. This was for the download version, so no shipping charges. What gives?
SoulTaker posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:10 AM
we are always being ripped off, they did it with P5 and they will keep doing it. why do you think bit tor was used and still a lot
Everseer posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:21 AM
Lookin' at the figures i'd say it was the likely mark up for VAT for us here in the UK, and as far as i'm aware this is still added whether goods are physically imported in or downloadable. Though i could be wrong ;)
gillbrooks posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:38 AM
The VAT is added on top of that figure, it's not included - here's the final amount on my pre order invoice
Shade 7 designer LE English Full Version 1 Windows 2000/XP Digital River 0.00 EUR
Sub Total: 101.15 EUR
Tax: 17.70 EUR
Total: 118.85 EUR That amounted to about an extra 12 VAT :-(
Message edited on: 02/20/2005 05:40
Gill
operaguy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 6:52 AM
NOT AGAIN?!?
[note: this is my second draft. I wrote the real one, then took a deep breath and calmed down.]
Over on the Vue forum and several other places I keep hearing "I'm being ripped off"
Do you really think that is appropriate in this forum? This forum is about people sharing experience with this great tool and learning.
I have twice been involved with this topic with Europeans making this complaint and if you insist on pursuing your position, especially with the negativity expressed in the first post, the thread will not last long, because I for one will answer back in no uncertain terms, and you will soon stop whining and begin screaming and I will have to back out, and the moderator will freeze the thread.
First, I suggest you take this to the off-topic forum. Second, be grateful it's not 1:1 and CL charging 239 Euros.
::::: Opera :::::
P.S. Everseer, your instinct is right that the problem is taxes in Europe -- but it is other taxes; they are correct that the VAT is added after that price difference, just like US taxes are. They are complaining because CL did not make the price EXACTLY the exquivelent of today's exchange rate. Perhaps they want their software sold like lobster in a restaurant, changing every day at "today's market price." I'm certain that if CL DID make the price the same as the exchange at this one exact moment, that when the exchange rate comes back down they will not all send CL a nice letter saying "You can adjust the price back now, it's only fair we pay more Euros."
xantor posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 7:00 AM
I disagree that this is off topic, you have to buy poser first before you can use it so this post is relevant. Most things from america are dearer here ( in britain) anyway.
bungle posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 7:11 AM
Guys this ain't even bad compared to how E-ON are taking the piss out of us with Vue ,Over there its 1:1 so $100 is e100 ,Believe me im not defending Operaguy as we've already had a little war over E-ONs pricing but i must say that this particular one just sounds like CL are actually covering there legal requirement to pay import taxes (This is the law even for downloads) Yes the USA is going to pay less but in this instance not a lot less (And they do have to put up with george bush and his business partners the Bin Ladens) ;)
Aeneas posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 7:27 AM
Opera guy: when people are allowed here to talk about not being able to upgrade at the lowest price, when sheer publicity for an app that no one really knows what it will be is allowed to lure people into pre-ordering, when people can post complaints about Daz' store etc, then I do not see why this kind of thread should not be allowed. What's more: this is not your forum. We all see from time to time a thread that displeases us, but then we simply don't react, and don't respond. Please do the same, or start your own forum somewhere else and allow only clones of yourself as members so that you can be certain they will all agree with you.
I have tried prudent planning long enough. From now I'll be mad. (Rumi)
philebus posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 7:27 AM
Well I pre-ordered and don't feel too bad about the price. Given how the exchange rate fluctuates - and how we are very high at them moment - it has been priced within a reasonable range. We can't expect them to change the prices daily with the exchange rate, nor to loose money by setting the price at the highest pound value. What we have is pretty fair compromise! And if you order today, you'll get that extra 15% discount that CL are offering due to the upgrade proplems.
SamTherapy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 7:42 AM
"I for one will answer back in no uncertain terms, and you will soon stop whining and begin screaming" OG, may I respectfully suggest that you lose the attitude? This is a perfectly legitimate thread. It's discussing Poser. My opinion... 24 ain't bad compared to some of the ludicrous price hikes we pay. Any of you guys bought a USA guitar recently? There's a frightening price difference. My feeling is that CL have a margin of error built in to protect themselves against currency fluctuations. Do I like it? Not particularly but them's the breaks. I won't be buying P6 yet (can't afford it) but I will upgrade asap.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
thefixer posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 7:46 AM
I'm with Philebus on this, I too have pre ordered and am reasonably happy with the price especially as they have now given 15% discount because of the serial number cock up! The VAT here in the UK always gets us doesn't it! :-(
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
KarenJ posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 7:56 AM
raises eyebrow
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
randym77 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 8:25 AM
Sheesh. There seem to be a lot of people these days who think they own the forum and can tell people what to post.
Well, those of you who think they own this forum are annoying those of us who actually do. ;-)
thefixer posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 8:33 AM
HAHAHA! Nice one randym77!
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
narsil posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 8:56 AM
OperaGuy - grow up - other grown up people have a right to have their say. This is entirely relevant to the poser forum, as it is a major release of the software. Other software forums also have members that give their opinion of price differentials so I cannot see how this forum is any different. I am in the UK saw the price - felt that the upgrade price was - not too bad - and upgraded. I was however delighted that Digital River and CL paid my 15% VAT for me. Dr Paul Cooper
wolf359 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 9:14 AM
But does'nt that Socialist VAT in Europe enable its citizens to enjoy all of those wonderful cradle to grave "free" government sponsored benefits??? Like healthcare and nearly unlimited unemployment payments?? you have to look at the big picture :-) Sure us yankees might get some 3D program a little cheaper but if i lose my job i only get 39 weeks of "Dole" before im on my own. :-)
SamTherapy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 9:39 AM
thefixer posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 10:03 AM
I was gonna respond to that wolf359 but I haven't got the energy, besides I think SamTherapy was expecting that, and I'm not gonna give him the satisfaction ;-)) [lol].
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
SamTherapy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 10:37 AM
Well, I was gonna say we use it to fund Anti-Bush demos but I decided to say nowt in the interests of peace in the forum. :D
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
Tashar59 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 10:40 AM
I find these facts a little distorted. I can see how some would think it a raw deal but still not as bad as you might think. You should know, we are paying more than that here in Canada. With the exchange rate it is quite disturbing and there is nothing we can do about it. If not for the help of Katherine at CL, I would not be able to buy. I don't think things will be finished in time for the 15% but you can't have everything. SamTherapy- Yeh, I know what it's like to buy an American Axe. My 40th Anniversary Strat cost almost a $1000.00 compared to the $600.00 and change in the US. Mind it is worth more now. You got to love the fact that the older they get, the more their worth.
wolf359 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 10:54 AM
*" I was gonna respond to that wolf359 but I haven't got the energy, besides I think SamTherapy
was expecting that, and I'm not gonna give him the satisfaction ;-)) [lol]."
Well, I was gonna say we use it to fund Anti-Bush demos but
I decided to say nowt in the interests of peace in the forum. :D"
IM not seeking "satisfaction" or a tedious,thread locking political argument.
I just think it should be Made clear that CL and other US based Exporters are NOT arbritrarily Gouging,"ripping off" British customers but indeed
they are are complying with international trade laws.
And exchange rates
your own governments are making your copy of poser MORE expensive for you
to import with THIER tax polices.
and presumably using that TAX money to provide social services that your citizens want.
Dont Blame CL for this. EDITED TO ADD PS. besides what good are antibush rallies at this point?? The Dude has already gotten himself in for another term So blaming him certainly isnt really going to help you get a cheaper Copy of Poser6 anyway :-) Message edited on: 02/20/2005 10:59
SamTherapy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 11:01 AM
"IM not seeking "satisfaction" or a tedious,thread locking political argument." Didn't think you were. I laughed when you posted it but I thought someone would get on their high horse about it. My reponse was meant to be taken in the same way I took yours, as a funny, smart ass remark.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
Lucifer_The_Dark posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 11:24 AM
If you really feel you're going to be ripped off don't part with your money, it's as simple as that.
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
Kristta posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 11:40 AM
I think all this was covered by Curious Labs (Katherine) in a post a few days ago. Kristta
aeilkema posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 11:40 AM
We Europeans are always being ripped of by certain companies like Vue, Adobe and Curious Labs. Just to name a few. As stated before, I've had it with being overcharged constantly and made a list of companies who do so. I'm not buying there again. The good thing is that many companies do not ripp us off at all. I lately noticed that I've suddenly got lot's of cash to spent since I'm not buying at these companies anymore....
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
coldrake posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 12:18 PM
It's funny operaguy, I don't see your name as one of the Forum Moderators. "First, I suggest you take this to the off-topic forum." snicker Um,operaguy, there is no off-topic forum. Coldrake
thefixer posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 12:48 PM
Hey wolf359 I'm with SamTherapy on this one with reference to post 22 above. We were both trying to inject a bit of humour into the thread, but then humour has never been a strong point for our brothers across the sea! {Joke, don't get all uppity)!
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
Lucifer_The_Dark posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 12:52 PM
Pitchforks & lit torches are in easily reached places you know ;)
Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1
operaguy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 1:33 PM
Open note to Karen: In reference to my suggestion in this thread that the objectors move their topic to the "off-topic" forum... I am unable to find the forum to which that first argument of this topic in which I was involved was moved, and later frozen. Also, there is no way to search across all Renderosity forums for me to search for it. This is not a complaint, simply an inquiry...has that forum been removed? I looked in "Render Wars" it is not in there. Thank you ::::: Opera :::::
operaguy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 1:40 PM
narsil >>I was however delighted that Digital River and CL paid my 15% VAT for me.<<< In post #4 there is an indication that the VAT was paid. Can anyone here confirm if CL is collecting VAT tax from upgraders or not? ::::: Opera :::::
randym77 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 1:49 PM
CL (actually, Digital River) is collecting VAT, separately from the listed price.
The law changed recently (in 2003, I think). U.S. companies selling stuff in the EU are required be registered in at least one EU country, so they can collect VAT and turn it over. They can't really enforce it, and small companies probably aren't doing it. But any company that doesn't, and then wants to do business in the EU will face back taxes and fines.
I'm not a lawyer, and export/customs law is so complicated it's a specialty all its own. But this is what it says on the Dept. of Commerce Web site.
KarenJ posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 2:01 PM
There is no off-topic forum, operaguy.
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
Bobbie_Boucher posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 2:03 PM
Pardon my confusion, so what is the official explanation for the difference in price? Is it VAT, the Exchange Rate, or something else?
xantor posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 2:07 PM
Distance tax :)
operaguy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 2:17 PM
Sam Therapy, It least you had the character to quote my (granted) most inflamatory statement, so I thank you for that and here is my response. The heat in my response is due to the blatant corporation bashing. "Ripping off" means fraud, stealing, extortion, and forcing against one's will. I assume "taking the piss out of" is in the same category, but not being British I may be missing some element of mitigation in the translation. An acusation of 'ripping off' delivered with bitterness and anger is very serious. It is not delievered as an inquiry, such as "Hey, what's up, why isn't the price exactly equal to the difference in the exchange rate?" It is a charge of unethical behavoir. And the presumption is: Curious Labs is a pirate, no proof needed, they are a corporation, automatically evil and out to steal from me. So, when you look at it that way, my punch-back that 'i will answer in no uncertain terms and you will be screaming' is quite mild in comparison. In fact, I am pulling my punches. My real punches were in my first draft which I did not post. Now, to the forum: There is a world-wide disprespect for corporations and capitalism. I will not go into the reason here...that would just set off the political fireworks. If I were to start off a thread with the same smear against Greens, or a minority, or a religion, or a race, I would be instantly banned from Renderosity and accused of a hate crime. But I suggest -- and may I remind the forum that suggesting is not ordering around or claiming to own the thread or un-grown-up behavior, it's not even a "should" (I have received, obviously, many "shoulds" in this thread in return for my "suggest") -- I suggest people honor and respect corporations on their face until absolutely proven they are malicious. ::::: Opera :::::
SamTherapy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 2:36 PM
I think it's best that we agree to disagree like gentlemen.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
operaguy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 2:53 PM
Ok.
boeing posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 4:14 PM
Operaguy is the man!!!
zippyozzy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:01 PM
I don't understand why anyone would want to be in arush to get P6??? Why not wait a little until the price drops or goes on sale? I would never pay that kind of money just for a download version without the hard disks. If that's just for the dl that's an insane prce to pay for one app, but that'sjust my opinion. I don't blaim the Euros for being pissed off about the price hikes, they do take advatage of it. But, CL isn't the only site that does this to Euros, it always costs more for a Euro than an American and why should that be in it's just fot the download??? If it's a dl it should be the same price for everyone. and, personally, might have to stop coming here until the P6 hype dies down. It's getting annoying to see nothing but P6 threads on here. My 2 cents worth. :) (MHO)
zippyozzy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:13 PM
It's starting to look more like a P6 forum and CL website then it is a Poser, general help forum. What's the name of this site again??? laters.
Tunesy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:21 PM
..."an insane prce to pay for one app". 'Pound for pound' P6 is dirt cheap in the 3d universe no matter what yardstick you use...
randym77 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:27 PM
The price is the same for the download and the hard copy. (Aside from shipping.)
And it IS on sale. I seriously doubt it will ever be cheaper than it is. Special price for pre-ordering, 15% discount from Digital River, plus $50 coupon. I'm paying $69. I don't expect the price to get lower than that for years, if ever.
I'd be buying Poser 6 anyway. I want to see it ASAP, in fact. So why not buy now, when the price is lower than it will ever be again, and they are giving out bonuses for pre-ordering?
If you think you're sick of P6 threads now, just wait until the program actually comes out.
JoePublic posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:36 PM Online Now!
"'Pound for pound' P6 is dirt cheap in the 3d universe no matter what yardstick you use..." And your point is ? Yep, Poser is cheap, but it would be even cheaper for non-US citzens if CL would sell it to them for the same price they sell it to their US based customers. Id like to see an official explanation for the price difference. Is it import-tax, VAT, a handling fee or just "lets make sum extra monney from dem stupid forrigners" ? Apart from the higher shipping costs for a boxed set of Poser, I see no reason for the different prices ?
operaguy posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:37 PM
referring to post 29 and 32 above, and my suggestion that the topic be taken to the "off topic" forum.... In a thread at the end of November in which I participated...Shoshona warned the forum and we took the conversation to "The Den." There, the argument accellerated and at some point after I left the discussion, the thread was frozen. Today, I do not see a forum called "The Den." Either I am not looking in the right place, or the forum has been withdrawn. Again, this is not a complaint just a point of information. ::::: Opera :::::
randym77 posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 5:42 PM
There is no Den any more. There have been OT forums in the past, but they've all been nuked. If we want to argue politics, we have to take it to a different site. (The Chicken Coop at PoserPros, maybe. If DAZ doesn't screw with it too much.)
XENOPHONZ posted Sun, 20 February 2005 at 11:32 PM
Oh, man.....not this again.
Take note: nearly everything costs more in Europe than it does in the US. EVERYTHING. Not just software. I won't attempt to recite all of the reasons again in this thread....it's a waste of time. All that it accomplishes is to make people that don't want to recognize the realities of living under heavily-socialized systems angry. It certainly doesn't convince them.
I just filled up my huge truck's gas tank today. I paid $1.69/gallon for the privilege. I'll leave it up to others to do the conversion to Euros/liter. Frankly, it's not worth the small effort involved to do so.
Sure........the software costs more across the pond. Most things "over there" do.
It's just that one doesn't usually concern themselves with the fact that people in the US pay less for almost everything.
There must be reasons for that. I wonder what they could be..........?
No, the Den no longer exists. And a true airing of this subject requires political debate.
We aren't going to get that here, beyond the first shot or two. The mods will shut down the thread.
So.....I'll leave it with some cryptic advice: Make some fundamental changes, and then prices will change fundamentally.
Man, I hope that we never adopt that stuff over here..........it's a constant battle.
BTW -- nobody is being "ripped off". Not by Curious Labs, anyway.
Message edited on: 02/20/2005 23:34
aeilkema posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 2:36 AM
"Take note: nearly everything costs more in Europe than it does in the US. EVERYTHING. Not just software." I've lived a long time in the US and by now I've been living for over 6yrs in Europe and you statement is totally totally incorrect. The whole point is again, that we're paying more then we should overhere. The base price (before tax) is already more expensive and just that shouldn't be. Even if there weren't any taxes to pay at we already pay more for the same product and that just isn't correct at all. Besides that only a handfull of companies in the US do follow these rip off policy, most of them don't. I've just bought a number of items in the US and was charged the fair exchange rate with on top of that taxes. That's the way it should be. With CL and E-On for example, We're NOT getting the fair exchange rate and on top of that also pay taxes. Which ever way you turn that, we're simply being ripped off!
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
operaguy posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 2:59 AM
aeilkema, how often do you think a company should change its prices to accomodate fluctuating currency differences? Remember the company prints documents, sales materials and catalogs, and their distributors do too. These have set prices in them and must be good for months, if not a year. They fill a pipleine of distibution at a certain profit point, based on their wholesale price.
How would you deal with that?
And also, should an American company in California do the VAT tax collecting, tracking, calculation and remitting for the governments of Europe for free? And why? Isn't that a service rendered?
And what is the actual facts about your contention that only a few don't charge exact exchange? Are you saying that most companies in the world accomodate exact, flucutating exchange, with these two software companies being the exception? Is that true with sales to India and Japan and Argentina and Kenya and Iceland? [I do not know the answer to this...I am asking a true question, and I respectfully SUGGEST no one answer unless they are experienced and have FACTS.]
::::: Opera :::::
Message edited on: 02/21/2005 03:01
R_Hatch posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 3:04 AM
Re: Us brits being ripped off again? by SoulTaker on 2/20/05 05:10
why do you think bit tor was used and still a lot That's a rather interesting statement, sir.
aeilkema posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 5:12 AM
"How would you deal with that?" It's very easy to deal with, just choose a major currency to price you products in and let the credit cards or paypal or whatever deal with the rest. You be all bring up whatever reasons you like but just look at it this way: BEFORE the euro was in effect, all US companies would charge us Europeans in US dollars, never made a problem of it. WHEN the euro became in effect but wasn't worth much STILL we all had to pay in US dollars, there wasn't a problem at all. NOW that the euro is worth a lot, SUDDENLY a number of companies make us pay in euros but just forgetting that there is an exchange rate. NOW the think up all kinds of issues why they should do so, but THESE HAVE NEVER BEEN ISSUES BEFORE AT ALL. BESIDES that, the tax they charge us is a lot of times for more then the TAX rate is. E-On for example is charging fat over 20% of TAX, they've already taken provision for all of the costs. NOT to mention shipping and handling, that still comes on top of it and again, THOSE rates are very high too, much higher then they need to be. THESE companies get their comensation for all the taxes, rates and efforts, but STILL choose to overcharge us on top of all that. That's what's bothering me so much. That's why I've stopped purchasing at those companies. I've bought numerous items in China, Hong Kong, Japan and the United States and most of them charge me in their own currency. EXCEPT for some US companies who believe they have the right to ripp me off.....
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
operaguy posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 8:48 AM
:::::: calmly -- in spite of all written above -- ignoring continual inflamatory use of "ripping off" ::::: calm point of information requested: 1) if you live in European Union, do you have a CHOICE to pay in Euros or Dollars, or are the two companies MAKING you pay in Euros/Pounds with no option to pay in Dollars? 2) if no option, how certain are you that CL and E-On themselves have an option? Before you got upset, did you check to see if perhaps they have been driven into that corner by some regulation or law, or some economic reason that would penalize them for charging EU people in dollars, or put them in some 'gray area' with the authorities? 3) if CL and E-on will not respond to such an inquiry, how certain are you that that is simply greed and manipulation as opposed to a delicate legal situation that their corporation is ill-advised to discuss on a forum such as Renderosity? For your information, corporations are put into that position all the time by zealous and conflicting regulatory bodies. Sincerely, ::::: Opera :::::
aeilkema posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 9:00 AM
No choice, as soon as your location is known, your currency gets choosen for you.
They do have the option, since they are companies with US offices. E-on has atmitted that if they wanted they can still charge us in dollars, they choose not to do so.
Since CL already has atmitted that it's not neccessary at all. FYI this isn't only dicussed at the forums here, but has been brought to the attention of both CL and E-On. After that CL has decided to lower the euro/uk pound price a little, E-On has chosen not too. Besides that a number European business magazines, 3D magazines and newspapers have looked into the issue too and concluded that this is plain old stealing. A number of them even adviced not to buy from US companies that use these kind of tactics. I do understand that ripping off doesn't sound to good, but as well as E-on as CL admit that it can be done differently but refuse to do so, so that's why I do believe the term is used correctly.
Message edited on: 02/21/2005 09:02
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
Bobbie_Boucher posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 10:08 AM
Perhaps you could provide links to the messages that provide evidence of your claims that CL are ripping you off?
operaguy posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 10:20 AM
Thank you for your informative post.
I still have various questions, and continuing to play the hypothetical advocate of the companies....I am not stating flatly that CL and E-On are NOT coming from pure greed...I am merely pointing out the possibility that there is a reason for their position.
in whatever forum or letter E-On stated they could charge in dollars but would refuse to, were there any extenuating circumstances you are not conveying? I find it hard to believe E-On came right out and said, in writing, "We admit we COULD offer dollars, there is nothing legally or economically in our way, but we simply chose not to and refuse to give you a reason, take it or leave it" leaving the self-indicated verdict of pure arrogant greed on the table. Can you say where E-On made this admission. I am not acusing you of lying, I just wish to look closely at the exchange of information.
a number European business magazines, 3D magazines and newspapers have looked into the issue too << specifically looked into the CL and E-On? Or into the situation in general? I am still attempting to get perspective here...how widespread or narrow is this, in other words.
I still have two general points to make....
even though a company COULD offer dollars and/or somehow charge the fluctuating exchange rate, please keep in mind that there very well can be costs, complications, compliance and hassle involved, not to mention conflicting and shifting government regulations that put them in a no-win situation. Some companies might be choosing to eat the costs of these problems as the price to pay to avoid reproaches such as those heard on this thread. Others might choose to "pad" to cover them. And yes, the transaction of a US company accepting payment in dollars from an EU citizen may or may not be as simple as it seems.. you and I do not see every wrinkle of legal exposure, regulation and compliance involved. Nor what costs the credit card company tacks on to the company.
the fluctuation currency angle...my point in the post just above how impractical this can be...and costly for the company.
::::: Opera :::::
Note: I may not be able to respond on this forum over the next 24 hours.
Message edited on: 02/21/2005 10:22
aeilkema posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 10:32 AM
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 11:05 AM
I've lived a long time in the US and by now I've been living for over 6yrs in Europe and you statement is totally totally incorrect.
Oh, really?
Hmmmm. Odd that I've heard nothing but the exact opposite from every European that I've ever worked with -- English, French, German, Belgian.....and others. I've worked with many.
Oh, well.....some matters aren't worth pursuing beyond the obvious.
Some simply refuse to see the obvious.
What was that about the price of petrol in Europe again........? Product transportation costs alone are driven up by such "minor" expenses. Message edited on: 02/21/2005 11:06
aeilkema posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 11:16 AM
Well, there's a huge difference between some things and everything :-) Guess the discussion has taken long enough by now. I'm not going to get Poser 6 anymore, so I'll abstain from further comments P6 and on all of this.
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 11:28 AM
Well, there's a huge difference between some things and everything :-)
True, but when it comes to matters of the economy -- nothing exists in a vacuum. Things are all tied together.
I.E. Higher energy costs/higher taxes (especially the taxes part) = higher transportation costs/higher production costs/higher business operating costs = higher software costs.
It's amazing how it works like that.
svdl posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 12:09 PM
What do I pay when I order a product? Three things. 1) base software price - to be set by the sofware company 2) shipping - to be set by the shipping company 3) VAT and other taxes - to be set by the government. What are the complaints about? About point 1, the thing CL can do something about. None of us understands why non-US citizens should pay a higher base software price. Non-US citizens do understand that shipping will be somewhat costlier - this is reasonable. Non-US citizens do realize that VAT percentages vary, and that European VAT percentages often are much higher. I must admit that Curious Labs definitely is not the worst of the bunch. Apple and Adobe are: the base price of an entry level Dual G5 was $1,899 in the US and 2,399 in the Netherlands - of course, taxes not included. This is the money Apple receives. At the moment of writing, the exchange rate is more or less 1.00=$1.25, so Apple receives almost $3000 for an entry level Dual G5 in the Netherlands, $1100 more than in the US. This simple calculation again does not include shipping costs and taxes. Needless to say, Apple will never get any business from me. The issue with CL is less dramatic, but non-US citizens are still being overcharged. It is basically wrong.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 12:18 PM
VAT taxes add to the overall cost of doing business.
Therefore, things end up costing more across the board.
Including software.
The "wrong" part comes in with the extra costs of doing business in certain areas......but that goes on to other hotly-debated (thread-locking) matters............
svdl posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 12:28 PM
Sorry Xenophonz, I don't get it. How does VAT affect the base software price? And why do many other companies set a simple price in dollars (e.g. Microsoft) so everyone pays the same base price? Please explain.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 12:48 PM
I can't speak for Microsoft in particular -- I am unfamiliar with their European policies. It's possible that Microsoft makes enough money already. They can afford to take a hit.
Interesting that Microsoft would be held up as an example of a "good guy". That's about the first time that I've ever seen that idea even vaguely hinted at..........but it's another issue.
However, I can speak in general economic terms.
It's so simple that it's difficult to see.
Higher taxes/higher energy costs/higher social costs all work together to contribute to causing the price of doing business to go up.
Generally speaking, companies need to make a profit in order to continue to operate.
So......in areas where it costs more for a private company to do business -- the company is forced to charge more for its products in order to stay afloat.
Once again:
When it comes to economic matters, there is an on-going domino effect. Raising the price of one thing (even apparently unrealated things) causes a ripple effect across the entire system.
It's singularly unsurprising that P6 costs more in Europe than it does in the US. The surprising part is that it still costs as little as it does.
svdl posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 1:11 PM
That would be a good argument if there were an European CL branch producing Poser for Europeans, and a US CL branch producing Poser for Americans, and so on, and so on. This is not the case. I fail to see how CLs research, development and production costs relate to the location of their customers. After all, they've had to pay their staff, rent their office buildings, pay for the CDs and the boxes. Those prices are related to the location(s) of the CL corporation, not to the locations of their customers. There is absolutely no reason why CL should receive more money from a British customer than from a US customer: it should be the same for everyone. Again, please note that I am talking about the base product price, not about shipping/handling fees, trade barriers and all kinds of taxes. These are different for every country (and even state or city) and outside the influence of CL. By the way, MS does a lot of things wrong, but this is one of the things they do right. As do Amazon and Quantum Books and many other online shops.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 1:27 PM
about the base product price, not about shipping/handling fees, trade barriers and all kinds of taxes.
All of these factors add up. Even for an importer.
If the US rasied taxes on imported automobiles tomorrow, then the prices of imported automobiles would go up in the US.
Europe is an expensive place to do business. Until that fact changes, I would fully expect to continue to see higher prices for comparable items over there.
svdl posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 2:11 PM
But there is no importer in this case here. No reseller to add to the costs. CL sends the package out, the customer pays the shipping/handling fees and the taxes. The variable costs are those of shipping and handling, not those of production! Lets take your example. If the US raised taxes on imported cars, what would happen? A Japanese car with a base price of $10,000 still would keep its base price of $10,000. The customer pays more due to the taxes. Maybe he'll even pay more due to increased shipping costs. But Nissan doesn't raise the base price to $11,000 for US customers! I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding. What I mean by base price is the amount of money that goes into CLs coffers. I'd like a good explanation why any company should make a higher net profit from non-US customers. I'd better ask CL themselves, I think. The same question has been asked at e-on, and their reply was (freely rephrased): "We know, we're overcharging non-US customers, and if you don't like it, stick it where the sun don't shine." I certainly hope CL has a better answer, at least the difference in base price is not as excessive as with Eon, Apple or Adobe...
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
aeilkema posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 3:20 PM
XENOPHONZ, I really don't think you do understand the term base price....
The base price is the price before any tax, shipping cost regulation fees or whatever. Like svdl explained with a car.
Nissan is selling their cars at a base price of 1,000,000 yen in Japan. The base car is $10,000 in the US and 7780 euro or 5520 pound sterling (UK).
Imagine them doing a 1=1 :-) You're going to pay $1,000,000 for the car!!!!!
Where ever you go the base price is 1,000,000 yens, but the selling price is not the same everywhere, that really depends on fees, taxes, agreements, shipping to the country and so on. But those things will not change the base price of 1,000,000 yen at all! the base price is always a set price in the country where the product originates and that base price cannot be when converted into another currency be higher or lower. You've got to stick to the original currency and use that one as the reference point of pricing.
What you're constantly doing is adding all of the fees taxes and so on to the base price and you can't do that. That's the same as CL and E-On and a number of other companies do. That is the whole problem, the base price should be (converted from currency to currency) always be the same.
The base price of Poser 6 is at the moment $239 dollars. That is 186 euro. But CL is telling us the base price of Poser 6 is 219 dollars. That's quite a difference.
The 219 dollars is not the final price we pay, on top of that we do still pay the appropiate taxes and shipping and handling.
I'm not going over this issue again, but I will say this in closing.....
LETS ALL HOPE AND PRAY THAT THE JAPANESE WILL NEVER EVER ADOPT THE WICKED 1=1 CURRENCY EXCHANGE RATE OR EVEN THE 1=0.9 EXCHANGE RATE THAT CURIOUS LABS IS USING.
That would mean that a lot of the day to day things we use would be costing a fortune!
Message edited on: 02/21/2005 15:23
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 10:55 PM
XENOPHONZ, I really don't think you do understand the term base price....
Oh......I understand the term, alright.
I'm simply stating that the "base price" of a given consumer good is directly affected by the operative tax rates.
For example:
Just to be simplistic -- unfortunately, it's a lot more complex than this in the real world -- it's going to cost a company more to set up shop and produce items in a country with -- say -- a 35% tax rate than it would for the same company to operate in a country with a 23% tax rate.
On top of which, the cost of the tax isn't absorbed by the company -- the cost of additional taxes is passed on to the consumer in the form of a higher base price. A "base price" which includes many, many hidden taxes.
Then, on top of the already increased base price, VAT taxes, sales taxes, tax taxes.....ad nauseum are piled onto the already inherently more expensive item.
Higher taxes aren't just something that get tacked onto an item after it rolls out of the factory door....like some sort of an afterthought. The higher tax rates affect the manufacturing/sales process at every step. Thus, the sacred "base price" is higher right out of the gate.
As for CL exporting to the EU, there are all kinds of costs for a company to do that, too.
I would be greatly surprised -- even with the small mark-up over US prices that CL has so graciously offered to its European customers -- if CL makes as much profit off of one copy of P6 sold in Europe as it does off of one copy of the same product when it's sold in the US. CL's profit is probably several percentage points less in Europe, even with the additional mark-up. Message edited on: 02/21/2005 22:56
svdl posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 11:21 PM
Xenophonz, the production cost is the same for every single unit. The differences due to taxes, shipping, import fees only apply after the product leaves the production facility. Where a company sets up shop affects prices, but it affects prices for every one in the same way. Of course the company pays taxes. Of course the company pays the salaries of their staff. The hidden taxes you are talking about are applied to the company as a whole. You cannot convince me that those "hidden taxes" are higher if the product is to be sold to a non-US citizen; those taxes are applied to PRODUCTION, before it is known to what customer the unit is going to be sold. Those taxes are equal for every unit. Unless CL maintains storehouses on several continents (which I doubt, since it's not a sound business practice for a software company) resulting in different storage costs, there is absolutely no reason why non-US citizens should pay a higher base price. Every unit has the same cost to the company, so every customer should pay the same price.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
svdl posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 11:28 PM
I've forgotten one cost: the cost of currency conversion. That is why CL should use only one currency (dollars) and one price: the conversion costs are calculated by the credit card companies and paid by the customer. Easier on CL too, and fairer towards non-US customers.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 11:40 PM
The hidden taxes you are talking about are applied to the company as a whole.
Which makes the overall operation cost more -- which makes it more expensive to do business........which adds up to higher final product costs.
Oh, well.......I can see where this is headed.
You've got to change the system at its root. Otherwise, prices for items across the board -- not just for software -- will continue to be higher for our cousins in Europe.
About the only alternative way for the situation to change would be for the US to institute a bunch of socialist policies, beyond the socialism that we already "enjoy" over here. In other words, voluntarily pull our own competitive edge down. Commit economic seppekku.
Then we'd be paying a lot more for our gasoline and our software, too.
svdl posted Mon, 21 February 2005 at 11:49 PM
Hey, I'm not complaining here about the higher taxes we have to pay in Europe. That has nothing to do with CL (or any other company). Don't tell me that companies in the US don't get taxed. Less than in other countries, but they do get taxed. And don't tell me that companies in the US don't pay their employees. Doesn't matter where you set up shop, those costs exists. And they're different in every country. I won't say the US should use the same tax regime as Europe - in fact, the European countries all have different tax systems and tax rates. US tax laws are US business. I only say that the base price should be based on the production costs (yes, including the taxes that apply to the production facility, including the costs that go with maintaining a sales force), not on the nationality of the buyer. Additional costs that ARE related to nationality/location of the customer should be (and are) paid by the customer. This has nothing to do with "socialism." It has to do with free trade.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
catlin_mc posted Tue, 22 February 2005 at 9:24 PM
Anyone heard the saying........."thick as two short plank's". 8)
tastiger posted Sun, 27 February 2005 at 4:52 PM
Well here one for you - I am in Australia and I wasn't given the option of ordering in $US - only the euro or pound. A difference of $AUD 34 before shipping. So I am getting hit with a tax that I am not subject to! So is the pricing fair? - think about it for a while this is not just an issue of EU countries.....
The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of
it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein
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svdl posted Sun, 27 February 2005 at 5:01 PM
tastiger: you're exactly right. This is an issue of all non-US countries.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
tastiger posted Sun, 06 March 2005 at 1:29 PM
Well here is the official answer from CL - at long last:- "Dear Tastiger, We apologize for the problems you have been encountering. The reason you can not order threw the US site is because the shippers do not ship to Australia or New Zealand from the US. We do not have control over how the currency is used on the website . Thank you for contacting the online store's Customer Support. If you have any further questions or concerns, please "reply" to this e-mail." So looks like the US site can only ship to the US, rest of us are stuck with the international site and they can't spell either.
The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of
it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein
11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz 3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro