Seems that now we do not have to even move outside the Renderosity galleries to find people willing to take our work and use it as they see fit.

The image on the left is mine, it's still in my gallery. You can find it here.

BikerBitchNo01's image is here.

That tattoo on the model's back is one that I handpainted myself ... I haven't even used it on a product or for anything else ... only in this image. And I certainly didn't share it with anyone. Anyway, it's obvious that this person is using my work as her own, and I'm sure I am not the only one.

She says right under the picture that she used tubes. I think you've been tubed. :-P

Maybe you could IM her and ask her where she got the tube from then you could thrash it out with the tuber. When people download tubes they have no idea whose original work it was or that it was used without permission.

Gill

       

Wow, busted! Copyright and intellectual property issues are among the most fascinating of our time. I think it would never even occur to me to use someone elses material in this way. I wanted to use an image of a flower I found on line as a majorly blurred out unrecognizable source for image based lighting as a backdrop for your (Rhiannon) fantastic Dominique character since I was only really going to use the color parameters as a basis for Vues lighting set up and decided not to as to error on the side of caution. I instead dug up an old photo I took and scanned it instead. Many people think that fair use mean as long as you dont make money on it. Although that is one of the parameters that would be under consideration in a lawsuit, there are so many other factors in play the point becomes hardly relevant. I have the chance to do some instruction in computers and whenever we use an image from the internet (within the context of a clear fair use situation) I use the word STEALING every time to reinforce the issue. I will literally say during instruction now go find the picture you stole from the someone on line in the My Pictures folder because I feel if we dont build the appreciation for this concept in at all times we will produce people who do not understand. Anyhow thanks for letting us steal (at $9.00 I consider it a steal) your characters and keep up the good work.

:roll eyes: Well, I'm certainly not going to "love, trust, and respect" a thief! Just taking tubes is just asking for trouble. If the source is a known copyright free collection (such as Dover or Corel's packages of clipart) one has a bit of backing before using it. I figure that the only thing most tubers are good at is changing the brand on the cow they stole from someone else's herd. Carolly

Sorry this happened, Rhiannon. The infringing image has been removed. Thanks for informing us.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

we're going to start slapping big'ol watermarks on our images.

Ask me a question, and I'll give you an answer.

That's so sad that people feel it's ok to steal others work. I'm sorry it happened to you.

They should purge all the tubers ASAP. Those people have absolutely no qualms about stealing from talented artists here.

Thanks very much Karen, and thank you to everyone else as well. I've never really had any experience with "tubers", although I have read some of the hotly-debated issues surrounding tubes and the people who make them, give them away, etc. I've been asked permission to use some of my images as tubes, but have never given it. Seems that tubes are much like Photoshop Brushes or Painter Nozzles, and the people who create them to sell or give away would be required to hold a license or copyright in order to do so, and the people who buy them or download them would want to be certain they are legal copies. Ah well, there will always be pirates, and unsuspecting bystanders as well. And the world keeps turning. :-) Thanks again to all!

I watermark all my images even if I don't stamp my name on it. :)

Message edited on: 03/02/2005 23:01

One observation -- we are talking about the "Poser" (capital "P") gallery here......so it's the appropriate place for a "poser" (lower-case "p") to post.

Right.......?

;-)

For any that might be in doubt about it -- I am joking.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

That person has been caught agen? She has been caught because she used one of Toxic Angels images as a tube in her gallery, and I'm pretty sure the rest of her tubes aren't quite kosher, either.

If they can't create their own content they have no business being on this site!

Agreed!

Do the impossible, see the invisible

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

Touch the untouchable, break the unbreakable

ROW ROW FIGHT THE POWER

I'm probably going to generate a lot of hate mail for saying this, but all tubers aren't bad. People have to start somewhere and not all people can draw or paint from scratch, yet they have creativity within them. So they use derivative/collage art to express that creativity (the above image is not a collage or derivate form of art). This form of art is recognized under the copyright laws. I tube, have for years, but I put the artists name in the file name and on images that I have used the image within. I also draw a little, but am by no way up to par with the likes of Royo or Bowser or many of you, but I like to make pretty things, so mainly use collage and derivative art as a way to do that. I also put the artists name on the finished image. Now I've found Poser, and it allows me to be express my creativity even more. Currently I use purchased textures and hair and clothes because I'm still new to the game. However, my goal is to be able to create my own props and textures, so that my "creations" will really be MY creations. Yes, there are people out there that use existing art and claim it as their own. I don't agree with that. A couple years ago I was a member of a tubes group in Yahoo, and the tubes sent through by the 2 owners were obviously the art of others. I sent an email to one of them one day and asked if they could include the artists name in the file name so that I could give proper credit (the file name contained their own name and the date it was tubed as well as a name they gave to it, but not the artists). I was surprised to receive a nasty email in reply, and find out that I was perma banned from the group for asking that. The internet is a 'take' medium, and I realize that anything I upload to it is vulnerable. I acknowledge that and accept it. Just yesterday I was browsing a website of someone that I know casually, only to find 2 pages that had content that was 100% verbatum taken from my own. I smiled and just shrugged it off. I was secretly flattered that they felt I wrote so well that they wanted to use my wording. Ideally they could have asked seeing that I am in their ICQ list, but it didn't bother me. What I'm trying to say is that yes, while there are some bad tubers out there, not all tubers are bad.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Mizrael & Sarte, /SET mode +sarcasm "Yep Ban all them dirty tubers!!! They're not like US! I mean it's not like they do REAL art or anything /Set mode -sarcasm Now much as I hate to get in the way of a budding lynch party... Are you aware that there are "tubers" who make their own Poser/Bryce/Vue renders, then make them into tubes either for sale or as freebies? They also run "safe" Yahoo/MSN/etc. groups & mail lists where a prerequisite of membership is that you understand & adhere to copyright laws (some even maintain copyright forums to gasp educate their members :-). Not to mention that several of these "tubers" have been more instrumental in identifying illegal tubes/tube sites, notifying Renderosity artists, and getting the illegal sites shut down. And do you know what the corker is? All of the tubers mentioned above are also members here, and there are a lot of artists who are very glad they are. So next time you pull out that righteous indignation make sure you're not aiming at too broad a target ok?

Frankly I think you guys are protesting too much to be so totally innocent! Anyone with half a brain would know that our indignation is based on the fact that there's a HUGE kernal of truth that Tuber's Steal. No, not all of them but the ones who don't shouldn't be upset by people who are angry with the ones who do steal. These "Righteous" tubers you speak of should be very understanding of why people are upset by the theft of their labors!

I protest at the sweeping generalization made in this thread about what all tubers are like. I do understand how some of you are feeling, but that doesn't give you the right to make broad sweeping generalizations about ALL people who tube.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Frankly I think you guys are protesting too much to be so totally innocent! Would you like to clarify that a little? I don't especially like being proclaimed guilty of something without being able to enjoy it first :-) Anyone with half a brain would know that our indignation is based on the fact that there's a HUGE kernal of truth that Tuber's Steal. No, not all of them but the ones who don't shouldn't be upset by people who are angry with the ones who do steal. My irritation is with the obvious bigotry of lumping everyone who makes tubes into the same basket. Substitute, "nigger" "jew" or "anyone who uses poser instead of a real CG program" into your statement our indignation is based on the fact that there's a HUGE kernal of truth that Tuber's Steal & you'll see what I mean. These "Righteous" tubers you speak of should be very understanding of why people are upset by the theft of their labors! If you're going to ask for understanding, try having a little of your own. Drop by the copyright forum sometime & browse through the dozens of threads BY tubers trying to identify tubes so the ripped off artist can be alerted or "outing" illegal sites.

Frankly I never said ALL tubers and your indignation reeks of someone who's feeling a tad bit guilty. Those who protest the loudest against imagined slights are usually the ones who need to examine their own reasons.

Mizrael, Just scroll back a bit & you'll see.... 14. Tuber's Should Be Banned!!! by Mizrael on 3/3/05 08:23 If they can't create their own content they have no business being on this site! Seems pretty all encompasing to me but I suppose that's just the "imagined slight" I misread into what you actually posted :-). As to "examining my reasons" try rereading the second point I was trying to make in my post above. That's the only reason for me posting here, no more no less.

While you may not have, others in this thread that stated such things as "They should purge all the tubers ASAP. Those people have absolutely no qualms about stealing from talented artists here." I'd like to see someone go into the streets and shout that all Jews or Blacks need to be lynched... or "purged"... and see where that gets you (generalized and not directed to you specifically). While you may not have a problem being lumped into a catagory, some of us do, that's all we're saying. You should go and think about why you feel the need to keep justifying yourself and pointing fingers.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

bookmarking just so I can watch the reaction when Mizreal figures out who Cooler is ;)

I could care less who Cooler is if they're hiding behind an anonymous screen name then that's all the more reason to find their opinions suspect. I never said ALL and if he/she wants to read the use of the word "ALL" into what I said then I think maybe he/she is too touchy about it and maybe feeling a twinge of guilt at their own past behaviour. I stand by my stance that those who protest the loudest are most often the ones with the most guilt. In qouting back my original post they ignore the fact that I clarified my stance with the remark "If they can't create their Own material". That hardly speaks to ALL tubers now does it?

Message edited on: 03/03/2005 19:14

Mizrael...you're in a hole. Stop digging. You're way out of line implying that Cooler is guilty of copyright violation. I can only assume that you don't hang out in Poser forums much.

Go ahead and make an ass out of yourself and assume all you want. I've been hanging out here for quite some time now.

If you have, then surely you know that Cooler is DAZ's copyright enforcer, among other things. He's an expert on intellectual property law, and the last one in the world to be soft on copyright violation.

That would assume that I get into a lot of copyright threads, which I don't go out of my way to join for the most part. I certainly have been in the Poser forum though for a few years now so you need to watch your assumptions.

You've been here less than a year, according to Rosity's database.

In any case, I said "forums," not "forum." I meant all the Poser forums - 3DCommune, DAZ, PoserPros, etc. Cooler is known as a copyright expert on all of them.

My advice stands. Stop digging yourself deeper. You're not making any friends here.

hiya guys, No offense but go find your own troll. I get so few to play with :-) As far as who or what I am it shouldn't make any difference. The message is what's important, not who is saying it. As far as I'm concerned I don't care if Ironbear, Dr Legume, or tim choate himself would have posted what Miz had, I would have said exactly the same thing to them (and probably a lot more colourfully :-) Mizrael, You've got a chance to end this now. We've both had our say & you clarified the header in your original post to this thread. Let it go & walk away. No sense in attracting anymore of a crowd unless you're going to bring popcorn :-)

I find it funny that the people who actually start the arguments by misreading what has been said are always the first to tell the people they've misqouted to back off and shut up. I never had any need to clarify my header from the original post because the very text of the message made it quite clear I was referring to people who don't make their own content and take from others. You sir are the one who went on to Assume I ment every tuber and also to actually go so far as to put the word ALL in my message where it never was to begin with. Maybe next time you should slow down and read the actual message before getting your hackles up and starting an argument that never needed occur. If you had I'd never have associated your ire with guilt. In anycase, I like popcorn.

Pass the popcorn?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Kettle Korn anyone?

::sigh:: And I find it even more hilarious when someone posts something idiotic, gets called on it & then persists in trying to defend an untenable position (see also: ronknights. How about if I throw up the following post... Mizraels Should be Banned!!! by cooler on 3/3/05 If they can't contribute intelligently to a thread they have no business being on this site! Note: It doesn't say some Mizraels, most Mizraels, a few Mizraels, or even Mizraels who slip into pink lingerie & stalk small woodland creatures in the moonlight. otay lest deal with your last post... I find it funny that the people who actually start the arguments by misreading what has been said are always the first to tell the people they've misqouted to back off and shut up. care to show me where I misquoted you or told you to "shut up"? I never had any need to clarify my header from the original post because the very text of the message made it quite clear I was referring to people who don't make their own content and take from others. care to show me where the qualifier "and take from others" magically appears? You sir are the one who went on to Assume I ment every tuber and also to actually go so far as to put the word ALL in my message where it never was to begin with. Plagarism is a serious charge. Again show me where I edited anything deliberately misleading into your post & I'll retract everything I've said. Maybe next time you should slow down and read the actual message before getting your hackles up and starting an argument that never needed occur. If you had I'd never have associated your ire with guilt. In anycase, I like popcorn. And I'd strongly suggest you slow down & think about how your message will affect other people before you post something with an intentionally inflammitory title. extra butter & salt on mine with a Dr. Pepper on the side :-)

Ooooh! Popcorn with real butter. :) Carolly (waving hello to cooler and the others)

Ok, let's start with your first response to me where you started off with adding the word ALL to what I said:

17. Re: A Poser Among Us? by cooler on 3/3/05 16:18

/SET mode +sarcasm
"Yep Ban all them dirty tubers!!! They're not like US! I mean it's not like they do REAL art or anything
/Set mode -sarcasm

You'll note I am acknowleging your use of "Sarcasm" mode.
It's still inflamatory and puts words where none were spoken by me.
?
Plagarism is a serious charge. Again show me where I edited anything deliberately misleading into your post & I'll retract everything I've said.

So with that very first quote from your very first response to me I've shown where you misrepresented what I said. Care to call out the lawyers on Plagerism now

Second It's not just YOU that I'm having to defend myself to. Randym77 is the one telling me I should stop posting my opinions which in effect is telling me to "Shut Up".

Message edited on: 03/03/2005 21:28

oh please... If you honestly think "Yep Ban all them dirty tubers!!! They're not like US! I mean it's not like they do REAL art or anything" is intended to be a direct quote you really need to get out more. The /sarcasm tags make it a first person statement of mine as if I were agreeing with you. and btw I was in error, what you accused me of was misattribution (deliberate misquotation), not Plagiarism (taking credit for someone elses work). and as far as... Second It's not just YOU that I'm having to defend myself to. Randym77 is the one telling me I should stop posting my opinions which in effect is telling me to "Shut Up". Aside from another flip-flop (tell the people they've misqouted to back off and shut up magically changes to in effect... telling me to "Shut Up") note: bold added for emphasis I don't see the place in post #32 that you refer to anyone but me. Despite the one generic use of "the people" you immediately limit that by use of "the first" and repeatedly the singular "you". Not that I mind taking credit :-) By the way I'm still waiting for the magic edit fairy to tell me where the phrase "and take from others" appeared in your original post and for you to show me where anything I took directly from your posts was misquoted.

Well with all the assumptions and inferrals you and Randym77 have made I think it's quite fair of me to assume that the "and take from others" could be inferred by the topic of the thread which was about people taking content that they did not create and making tube out of said content.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander they say.

Point 1: The thread is about Tubers who Steal
Point 2: My post states that "Tubers who don't make their own content should be banned" this should be understood as those tuber's who are stealing other's work.
Point 3: You added the word "All" and used my name and Sarte's in your first post not stating who you were attributing the word's usage to but you added it to a variation of my own words so I could infer you were misquoting me.

So I still stand by my first posting. It's about theft incase you haven't been reading the whole thread. It's about Tubers who Steal. Do you still want to continue defending those people? I never said All should be banned. And finally, as someone who represents a company in the copyright arena, I find it a very poor representation of your employer to be getting into petty arguments where you are representing your employer. Especially taking a stance that appears to support the theft of someone else's intellectual property.

Message edited on: 03/03/2005 22:22

Since I know nothing about what a 'tuber' is or isn't, the orginal post had the same image side by side and someone clearly stole/ripped it. Tube or not it's still stealing in my opinion. How can anyone defend someone whole stole someone elses artwork?

Message edited on: 03/03/2005 22:30

"Anyone with half a brain would know that our indignation is based on the fact that there's a HUGE kernal of truth that Tuber's Steal." You know? I bet I can get waaay more hits on Kazaa and eDonkey from using "Poser" as a search term than I ever would from "tubes"... so, err, be careful where you're swinging that thing, willya? Fact is, lots of folks steal lots of things - but I certainly wouldn't make a monster newbie mistake like lumping in whole swaths of folks just because of their hobby. There are legit tuber-types out there too - I happen to know two of 'em in Salt Lake City. They create and trade legit tubes as tattoo flash for their day jobs. Incidentally, I also wouldn't do something uber-newbish like slag on one of the biggest unofficial copyright authorities in Poserdom either... Well, I'd slag on Cooler, but only 'cause he likes it, the dirty little so-and-so (and did I mention he's lazy, too?) Just a thought, Mizrael - before you whip out a big ol' paintbrush, perhaps you oughta check and make sure that paint of yours don't splatter all over everybody else, eh? ;) Be excellent to each other, /P

Frankly I never said ALL tubers and your indignation reeks of someone who's feeling a tad bit guilty. Yeah, cooler, quit making those damned illegal tubes! We all know you're doing it and just trying to cover up for it by working as the Copyright Enforcement Rep for DAZ3D and posting all those helpful copyright information posts! Admit it, you're a snagger and a tuber! ;-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Yeah, what she said, you filthy little tube-monster you! (oh, wait... that came out sooooo wrong. I need to rephrase that.) Maybe I'll just go have a smoke first and then think up something better. /P

Mizrael:

Randym77 is right.

Cooler is both very well known and very well liked within the community.

In addition to which -- he's generous and helpful.

Totally aside from the "rights & wrongs" of the situation: you'll not win any joy of this one.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Well, I'd slag on Cooler, but only 'cause he likes it, the dirty little so-and-so (and did I mention he's lazy, too?) Yeah but I make up for it by being cute, fuzzy, loveable, & a teriffic dancer :-) Yeah, cooler, quit making those damned illegal tubes! We all know you're doing it and just trying to cover up for it by working as the Copyright Enforcement Rep for DAZ3D and posting all those helpful copyright information posts! Admit it, you're a snagger and a tuber! ;-) the only hard part is trying to disguise all those illegal tubes as free models :-) Thanx Xenophonz... need a job as a press agent? :-) Now on to you Miz, Look you can't have it both ways. On one hand, despite the title of your 1st post, you're pissed at me for "inferring" you meant ALL tubers (bad thing). Then you pull a John Kerry & tell everyone else to "infer" that you ACTUALLY meant "only tubers who steal" (good thing) although you don't clarify that until later. Bad logic based on a poor premise isn't going to win many arguments. As far as who I work for it wasn't germane to my initial post & it's even less relevant now. In fact it never would have been an issue if someone else hadn't mentioned it. However if you really think that my taking exception with your call for banning tubers reflects badly on DAZ feel free to take it up with Eric Allen (he's my day-to-day contact at DAZ) or ultimately with Dan Farr/Chris Creek (they own the place) You can give them a call at 1-800-267-5170 any time M-F 9:00am-5:00pm MST. Tell them I sent you & you'll find that, unlike me, they are really nice guys :-)

Thanx Xenophonz... need a job as a press agent? :-)

I call 'em like I see 'em.

When I think highly of someone -- then I don't make a secret of it.

Likewise, when I think....uh......"less than highly" of someone (or of their behavior) -- I tend to not make a secret of that fact, either.

---

Frankly, I am mildly suprised that this thread hasn't been nixed.........I'm not asking for that to happen......some issues are allowed to play out, I suppose.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I may get trashed for this, but I do not see anything wrong with using tubes. It is a form of art as well like a collage, you know what the kids do when they cut images out of magazines and make a picture with them. Now for the other hand, people selling or giving away tubes of peoples work who they do not have permission to use is wrong, but if they make their own tubes and what not, do not offer them to anyone else then I do not see what is wrong with it. I would consider it flattery that someone wanted to use my art to make art :)

♠Ω Poser eZine Ω♠
♠Ω Poser Free Stuff Ω♠
♠Ω My Homepage Ω♠

www.3rddimensiongraphics.net

 

Post 17: Cooler Misrepresents what I said and puts words in my mouth I did not use. Post 20: Cooler Paints me out to be a Bigot because of his own misrepresentation of my words. Post 31: Cooler paints me out to be a Troll (Someone who's only purpose at Renderosity is to start arguments, something my history here proves not to be the case) Post 35: Cooler calls me idiotic. Now if you'll excuse me, but saying I'm only pissed because you misread my first post is going a bit too far. I've not called you any names, as you have done to me. Beyond pointing out your assumptions and misrepresentations, I've done nothing to justify this "Make Miz out to be a villan" hijacking that you've done to a thread about Tuber's who Steal. In fact I've stuck to the point that Tuber's who Steal should not be allowed here. You are the one who's time and again made it personal and about me which has nothing to do with the original poster's intent of the thread. So when you can admit that, then, maybe, You'll earn my respect. Til then I have nothing else to say to you except you're wrong.

Hmm. funny thing, I was implying also that he meant all tubers should be banned, but that might have been the language barrier...but then I'm one of those who wouldn't be very impressed nor flattered if anybody would steal my work, either. settles back, waves to the rest and snags some popcorn

OK folks... I do not really want to lock this thread. It seems we ALL agree that SOME tubers do steal others' work, and that is Wrong. After some clarification... it seems we also all accept that there are some tubers who do work within the law, creating original and creative images. Mizrael, your initial post was perhaps made in the heat of the moment, and on reflection, maybe you can see that you did make some rather sweeping statements which have upset others. Rather than clarify your intent and clear up misunderstandings, you have chosen to go on the attack, which I do not understand. May I suggest you reread your initial post and consider just why it has annoyed others? And then perhaps we can drop this matter - on which we all seem to agree the fundamentals anyway (that theft is Wrong) - and get on with creating some art of our own? Thank you. Karen Poser Moderator

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Karen, I "Clarified" my post not just once but several times during this whole fiasco by stating I never called "All" tuber's theives. I'm not the person who made it personal by using derogatory remarks about a person's character such as the remarks Cooler's made about mine. Does theft anger me? You betcha! Does name calling piss me off? Oh Yeah! You can consider the matter dropped by me. I've no need to drop to Cooler's level of name calling and misqouting to make my point. I made it in my first post and clarified it by Post 25. Cooler even acknowledged that I clarified my stance in post 31 where he also used his second derogatory and inflamatory statement directed at me. Maybe someone should consider an appology here for all the name calling.

Maybe someone should consider an appology here for all the name calling.

And for accusing people of being thieves who have a guilty conscience?

bonni Message edited on: 03/04/2005 03:13

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Funny you should mention Ron Knights. I was just thinking that his, er, style of discourse was very Knightsian. Except I think even Ron would know better.

FWIW, Mizrael IMed me under his other name, SteveJax. So he's got a sockpuppet participating in this thread, too.

Nah, Ron knows who cooler is and is quite smart enough to tackle someone more vulnerable, such as a merchant or a newbie or someone heading into the hospital. The argumentive bulldoggedness isn't limited to just one member here. (I can be quite tenacious myself, but try not to get boxed into corners when arguing a point... bad fencing technique.) Now if Mizrael is SteveJax, that would undermine his sweeping claims to be against theft... since SJ first came to my attention trying to recreate the TV version of Batman and Robin. Fan art often goes under the radar, but still is a copyright violation. If this keeps up, we'll need to rent one of those commercial-sized popcorn makers. ;^) Carolly

sneaks in with a meaningless entry so as to FINALLY make my name appear in a locked thread

sneaks in with a meaningless entry to take down ChuckEvans dream to appear in a locked thread hehehe

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

LOL...well, one CAN have dreams, right? (Sheesh! All the popcorn's disappearing, too...)

I hate it when popcorn husks get caught in between your teeth.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"I'm not the person who made it personal by using derogatory remarks about a person's character such as the remarks Cooler's made about mine."

Yes you did:

"Frankly I think you guys are protesting too much to be so totally innocent!" Post #18
And
"Frankly I never said ALL tubers and your indignation reeks of someone who's feeling a tad bit guilty. Those who protest the loudest against imagined slights are usually the ones who need to examine their own reasons." Post #21

So anyone who disagrees with you on any level is hiding a guilty conscience?

Hah, I'm as guilty as they come....I have to be, every time I tell someone I'm completely and utterly innocent - they die laughing.... ;)

notices the empty bowl of popcorn and replaces it with ripple chips and dip

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

*25. Re: A Poser Among Us? by Mizrael on 3/3/05 19:13

I could care less who Cooler is if they're hiding behind an anonymous screen name then that's all the more reason to find their opinions suspect.*

and

*53. Re: A Poser Among Us? by randym77 on 3/4/05 05:38

FWIW, Mizrael IMed me under his other name, SteveJax.*

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :)

snags some of the freshly brought chips and watches as more of the scene unfolds... ;)

At least chips don't get stuck between your teeth.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Friday night fun...

On another subject, I think I just saw Posette on CourtTV. Shot and beat up yet again...

Ohhhh! What a sweet looking .gif. May I borrow it?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Feel free. :-)

And if you want to try to make your own, the popcorn cart is here:

http://www.wg3d.com/moversx.html

Thank you :) I've book marked the site for future reference. I'll give it a try, but in the meantime I'll borrow yours...it's adorable. Thanks again :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

cal (wg3d) makes some of the most charming models. His CDs are quite a bargain... chock full of all the little things to fill out a scene. :)

mizrael - I gotta say - I'm coming at this from both sides why? Because my work is constantly being tubed - so much so that when the image that began this thread became a concern I was messaged because it was believed to be mine. I am an asst. mgr in a copyright awareness group that deals mainly with tubers and snaggers et al. On top of that I also do a pretty good little business selling royalty free images & clipart in psd format to be converted into tubes (my way of dealing with the constant snagging). So I'm a borderline tuber as well. Your original comment was out of line - your claim to have been around for awhile and yet to not know who you are typing to is ignorant. Your continued ranting and finger pointing was ridiculous and frankly only made it worse, it didn't deal with the real issue here at all. In fact you successfully diverted the attention from the real issue by behaving as if personally attacked when cooler was only being sarcastic in regards to your sweeping generalisations. On top of that you stated that cooler was "suspect" for hiding behind a screen name - I don't think mizrael is your real name, on top of that you posted under stevejax in this thread which is apparantly your other nick. So who seems more suspect? Really all you had to post was that you were irate and that you didn't mean all tubers in a sweeping fashion like that. I suggest a nice step back, and a re-think, you aren't doing yourself any favors in this community with your reactions. Not that I disagree that tubers, many of them are a group of "gimme" babies, but I do know enough to know they aren't all that way.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Marked........

Well, in defense of not knowing who cooler is...I must confess, I didn't know who he was either. Yeah, I've seen his posts here and there but I didn't know he was the copyright guru (makes mental note for future question bombardment). Only thing that caught my attention was the (very) artful way in which cooler made his point. Now, post #17 was just pure art. But the "cherry on top" was in post #31: "No offense but go find your own troll. I get so few to play with :-)" Had to explain why I was laughing so loudly to the co-workers in the nearby cubicles on that one!

This is a bit off topic, but I have to insist that the use of screen names is not "hiding," unless it literally is, as in the case of RK, who has been popping up at various forums that he's been banned from lately with new screen names.

As the result of my own foolish use of my real-life first and last name in a a Usenet group some years ago, I was stalked, spammed, and received harassing phone calls from some anonymous troll there who took an intense disliking to me, evidently for being happier than she (assuming it really was a "she," which I don't.) It was a most unpleasant experience, and is specifically why I'm careful about who I disclose my full name to these day. To be fair, I've never had any such trouble in the Poser community, whew!

By the way, cooler has posted his real-life name numerous times in Renderosity forums.

I don't know what problem some of you have had with Ron Knights in the past. I tend to ignore the gossip and form my own opinions. Sure he has strong opinions, but so do many other people. However, he was very kind and helpful to me when I first came to the Poser community last summer/fall. He helped me, and from what I saw, others, a great deal. I rather liked the guy and have wondered where he had vanished to :(

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

He hasn't vanished. He's just posting under different nicks, because he was banned under his own. He's Bobbie Boucher here, and Elliot Ness at PoserPros, I believe. Not sure about DAZ. I think he was only suspended there, so he may be able to come back under his own name eventually.

"I rather liked the guy and have wondered where he had vanished to :( " He didn't vanish, he's just using another of his many SN's created after being banned from virtually every site in Poserdom.

That's good! :) I'd hate to see someone so helpful to new Poser users banished. He was one of the first to jump into my confused state and try and get me settled into using Poser.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

He is currently here as AlteredEgo. That is the same nick that he is also currently using at PoserPros and DAZ, where he has been banned. He was also banned at 3dcc and 3dcommune. (It is possible that he is still the only one banned there.) He has been permanently banned numerous times under a long list of names. He has a unique way of disrupting the operations of a site, harassing merchants, arguing with admins, all while gathering attention to himself as the poor victim. I've never seen anyone else operate so successfully as a manipulator and martyr, despite coming from a family of professionals. It is almost awesome to watch him in action: the affair of x2000 and the restaurant unfolded at PoserPros like a slow-motion 200-car train wreck. His history would be more clear, but so many threads were locked and scooted out of sight because they got too heated, and we've lost entire forums. Carolly

He has never been anything but kind and helpful to me :) Regardless of experiences by others, I give people the chance they deserve and don't prejudge based on what others say. I think it's unfair to keep dragging up history. As I said, I like to keep an open mind about people and form my own opinion. However, not evenyone is like me and some tend to judge based on what others have said, which is unfair.

Message edited on: 03/05/2005 20:59

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

As I recall, if he is the "same" Ron Knights, he is a preacher. Odd behavior if so.

His "helpfulness" toward newbies is part of the problem. He loves to "help," but the info he gives is sometimes dead wrong. And he will never, ever admit that he was wrong, even when it's plain as day. He also barges into other people's tutorial threads and tries to argue with the person teaching, and direct the people trying to follow the tute to his web site instead.

He had a tutorial accepted at DAZ, but parts of it were incorrect. And rather than admit he was wrong and make the corrections, he pulled it.

"I think it's unfair to keep dragging up history. As I said, I like to keep an open mind about people and form my own opinion. However, not evenyone is like me and some tend to judge based on what others have said, which is unfair." I don't judge by what others have said. Ive seen RK's antics. The man is a Troll of the first order. Period. He's been banned at sites that PRIDE themselves on NOT banning members.

"Ive seen RK's antics. The man is a Troll of the first order." I think people should leave their problems with others at the door and allow others to form their own opinions. Gossip is a terrible thing.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Exactly. It's not based on what others have said, and it's not dragging up history. We've seen Ron in action, first hand. And he was banned from DAZ last December - hardly ancient history.

"I think people should leave their problems with others at the door and allow others to form their own opinions. Gossip is a terrible thing." And I think I'm entitled to my own opinion. You don't agree that RK is a Troll? Terrific. As for me, I gave him a chance when PP's first opened, he had a bad rep but I felt he deserved a second chance. He blew that chance. Now if you want to lead the RK's fan club, by all means do so, just don't expect me to join. Oh and I think you will find I speak my mind and will continue to do so regardless of what you think.

I think we've all been in that position. We've all given Ron chances, and been burned. I used to defend him, too. I learned my lesson. You don't get banned from every site in Poserdom without a reason.

You don't get banned from every site in Poserdom ...sometimes more than once... without a reason. Yup. I used to wonder what the "big deal" was about him, until he went off on one of his tangents in a situation in which I was involved, the Xmas give-away items the DAZ brokers provided. He is one of the primary reasons that I will never again participate in a big special occasion give-away. His badgering and nasty commentary on the topic completely ruined it for me, and I'm never going to put myself in a position to receive that kind of negativity again. And by the way, he's changed nicks again, both here and at Poser Pros. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I am saddened by the lynch mob mentality demonstrated here. I can't believe moderators allow people to discuss bans and gossip about fellow community members like this. What transpired between him and some people here, is past history; let it go and stop spreading your poison. It doesn't concern those of us who were not involved, or even present at the time. Let those of us who weren't around when those things happen, form our own opinion without interference and the obvious prejudices that some here have against him. What happened between him and some of you is PRIVATE and no one else's business.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

It's not private when it was publically posted. And still is, if you want to look up the threads. Sorry, but I find your request unreasonable. It's like asking us not to mention something that's up on the ticker in Times Square.

What happened between him and some of you is PRIVATE and no one else's business. Actually, it's not. It was all very, VERY public. And people most certainly are welcome to form any opinion they wish. I am sharing ONLY my personal experience, nothing more or less. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

"What transpired between him and some people here, is past history; let it go and stop spreading your poison. It doesn't concern those of us who were not involved, or even present at the time. " Not my problem you're a noob that hasn't been around for the RK show. You have your opinion and I have mine. I will state my opinion any damned time I feel like it. Is that plain enough for you or should I be even more blunt?

And a permanent BAN is supposed to be permanent, and only used against the worst offenders... people who poisen a community, deliberately hurt other members, or who disrupt the operations of a site. He is not a member. He is banned. He is not one of us. It is like being "outlawed", which was one of the few ways the Vikings dealt with offensive people. They had no jails and death was reserved for people practicing harmful witchcraft. For minor crimes a fine could be imposed. For major or repeated offenses the person was banned and put outside the protections of the law... this meant no food, no shelter, no entitlement to payments... Nothing. They usually had so many days to leave the country... and if they returned, they could be killed on sight by anybody without penalty and without bloodprice. If they couldn't live within the law, they were outside its protections. (Our word "law" is from the Old Norse, as is the concept of trial by a jury of one's peers.) Here on the Internet, we have few ways to protect members of society from baneful influences. If somebody continues to be unsocial despite warnings, the only recourse is to outlaw them. A banned member is outside the community. If they return, what then? Decide the laws don't apply to anybody and leave the community open to anarchy as all the animals shred each other? Or enforce the law and evict the trespasser each and every time he enters a place where he has been thrown out? Laws knit a society and without them, this will all unravel into the nastiest feuds and flamewars you can possibly imagine. If a site declares that someone is permanently banned, they have an obligation to all members to enforce that ban. If a site will not stand behind its rules, why should we? Carolly

All these sock puppets and secret identities are making me paranoid. Now I'm starting to wonder if Acadia is Ron. :-/

"All these sock puppets and secret identities are making me paranoid. Now I'm starting to wonder if Acadia is Ron. :-/" You know, I was thinking the same thing :) hauksdottir, Cooler is working on a paper where he supposes that gaining access to a site one has been banned from is tantamount to trespassing. I don't know all the details, he could explain much better than I. It is an interesting concept. Websites are personal property. By using a web site you have been banned from, your are using bandwidth and services you are not entitled to.

Ummm, k. I guess Ron's been lurking around these parts desguised as me since Monday, January 06, 2003 when I joined this site :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Oooohhhhhkay, I think the Miracle of Thread Drift has transported us far enough for one day... Can everyone please pick up their empty popcorn containers and soft drink cartons, I'm locking up for the night :-)

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire