Well, does it seem like Curious Labs is still severely troubled? Personally, I am very frustrated with their inability to communicate and keep proper records. I have attempted to contact them 5 different times over the last 3 weeks because I was not included in the P5 pre-order discount. I have IMed them 3 times and only received the canned response "Curious_Labs has received your message". I emailed them and got the response from Tori that "All offers and discounts were sent to qualified users via email". Well, CL and Tori...YOU ARE WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG !!!!!!! I absolutely bought P5 pre-order and suffered through the Beta Program. Hey CL, your records should show this. I have politely emailed them a second time and have received no response. Next, they farm out their ordering to an apparently unprepared and/or incompetent company like Digital River. Because of CL's poor customer service I guess I have missed out on the DR discount too? Finally, all CL seems to do here is come by for hit and runs. Just sad. I guess sales and customer service are unimportant to CL. Pitiful.

I finally received their newsletter this month after signing up twice. I, personally, can't make heads or tales how they do things on that site. I'm waiting to see if P6 will hit the shelves before I buy. I do not like ordering from websites without zero site support. Have you tried to IM them from here? You,re right though, they only come here to hit & run with their plugs & announcements. (mho) :)

I'm still waiting too. Over 5 weeks with the I'll fix it for you next week for the first 3 and no response the last 2. IM's don't seem to work from here. I got the R'sity notice that they have read the Im's tonight but didn't bother to let me know what's going on. You would think they could have at lest told me they won't do anything. I could have ordered and got the 15% off. I didn't because I was promised a fix. Thanks for your help CL.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I agree that this, especially for loyal, long-time customers, is very bad customer sales and service. With the number of products that I've purchased from CL, my information should be very easily found - and that goes for others as well. Seems to be a complete turkey shoot in who gets an order through and who doesn't. At this stage, there is absolutely nothing that I can do to fix the problem or go forward - the ball has been and still is in their court. As others have done, I've IM'd my information several times and patiently await a response. beryld, you, I, and anyone who was incapable of ordering the pre-order during the first few weeks should have that 15% honored. Call it a raincheck, call it a coupon, but don't call it gone because of their ineptness. With less than two weeks until expected release, they need to sit down and get these problems sorted.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Many of us hit snags with the ordering, especially with serial numbers which didn't "take", mostly because EGIsys didn't hand over complete records. We are dealing with a lot more than CL here... there is a defunct former parent company who was responsible for at least part of the accounting. As for CL not being in these forums as much as they were 3-4 years ago? That is the direct fault of the handful of members here who went out of their way to shoot them on site... and who still lie in wait to target any employee of CL. We all lose because of these gunslingers. If a technical person, someone who can actually answer the questions about the features, is driven out to cheers of applause and the self-congratulatory smirks of the jackals, why should anybody else hang around? No one is paying them to be in the forums, and I'm not sure that any sum of money is worth the abuse. Perhaps if we were a little tiny bit friendlier, they might feel like stopping by. I've met many of them, and they are hard-working decent people trying to make a product we can use to make art. Right now they are over-worked and facing a deadline. Instead of cussing them out, how about rephrasing your question so that someone will want to be helpful? Carolly

I have to wonder about this being EGIsys' fault. Remember when Shade was being offered to Poser users at a discount. I believe that it required you to use your Poser serial number to get the discount on the non-Japanese version when released. Now, it seems that EGIsys would have handed over records by then, I suppose, and I was able to use my Poser 5 SN to order Shade Std 7 E for Poser users. So, what happened to my Poser 5 SN between then and now? Any ideas?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Attached Link: http://www.yellowpages.com/

Try calling them on the phone, it's what I do if companies don't react. Often, you get more on 5 minutes of a friendly phonecall than 1 week of angry emailing. Don't bother searching CL's web site for their phone number. They're listed in the phone book.

Calling from [insert your country here] to US is not always an option ... "call them" seems like the standard response around here, but to actually wake up in the middle of night (when it's business-hours in US), placing a damned expensive overseas phone-call and waiting in line for 15 minutes is not always a very good option...especially to many who write/read English, but aint that great when it comes to actually speaking.

Message edited on: 03/08/2005 04:57

I have not sent a rude/angry/ anything of that type to them. No reason for it. I have been careful as to how softly I asked what is going on. How long do you have to wait before you are aloud to get angry?

I don't know how it's for you, 12rounds, but for me in Germany it's cheaper to place a call to the U.S. than calling someone with a German cell phone. As for business hours, it's safe to call anyone in the U.S. at 8pm CET. Well..maybe it's just me, but I prefer having someone to talk to.

Message edited on: 03/08/2005 05:55

I have had the "not a valid serial" problem. I PMed Curious Labs here and got a quick and friendly answer by Kathy. I was able to purchase the Poser6 pre-order. Hope this helps.

Msg#5: "As for CL not being in these forums as much as they were 3-4 years ago? That is the direct fault of the handful of members here who went out of their way to shoot them on site... and who still lie in wait to target any employee of CL. We all lose because of these gunslingers." A joke, surely? I would assume that CL can take a bit of forum noise in their stride. You would think they'd like to be in amongst their user base. Not everyone was so mean to them that they frightened them away I'd hope.

compiler wrote: I have had the "not a valid serial" problem. I PMed Curious Labs here and got a quick and friendly answer by Kathy. I was able to purchase the Poser6 pre-order. Hope this helps. Same here ... same procedure ... got my preorder too :) Greets Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

There has been a lot of negativity in this particular forum regarding the Poser 6 release and I believe that is what hauksdottir was referring too. It's not just that but can you imagine logging into this forum and having 500 IMs to read and answer in a single night? It could even be more than that. And I am sorry but computers are not fail safe on anything and that is where your purchase information has been stored and kept since you bought P5. All it takes is one person at the now defunct company failing to turn over one hard drive for CL to miss about 1,000 people on a special pre-order of P6. Let's also not forget that the buyers and users of Poser may have started with just a couple hundred with the first release but probably now has more than 10,000 users and buyers so just maybe your info is not right at their finger tips. I figure after saying all this, I'll have to take a nice vacation from this forum. While I'm gone, go ahead and flame the @#%$& out of me. Kristta PS I don't think people around here are too nice sometimes myself so I'll leave and maybe find all the others who have been kicked out.

The Promotion was only for people that signed up to the Newsletter during a specific time period. It may not have been the best marketing concept, but that was the deal. If you signed up again during that time, you would have gotten the coupon as well.

ratscloset
aka John

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2143085

I can certainly relate to your problems as I am going through the same thing myself. I just wish there was some why to talk to someone there instead of playing this stupid e-mail tag game with them that doesn't seem to end. Read the link on Customer Service and you will see what I am talking about.

So is there a point in telling us that you got your orders fixed with no problems? Is there some special email addy you have? Maybe a special club? Oh wait, one of the populars. Must be something. Can't be to gloat and tell us that it is our fault, must have done or said something wrong to make them treat us like this. I have to leave, I haven't started to steam like this in years.

"So is there a point in telling us that you got your orders fixed with no problems?" err... yes there is : in telling you how I did, I thought that you could use the same procedure to get your own problem fixed. Isn't that what a forum is about ? Helping each other ?

Finally, all CL seems to do here is come by for hit and runs. Just sad.

The issue is well-covered by the following statement:

*As for CL not being in these forums as much as they were 3-4 years ago? That is the direct fault of the handful of members here who went out of their way to shoot them on site... and who still lie in wait to target any employee of CL. We all lose because of these gunslingers.

If a technical person, someone who can actually answer the questions about the features, is driven out to cheers of applause and the self-congratulatory smirks of the jackals, why should anybody else hang around? No one is paying them to be in the forums, and I'm not sure that any sum of money is worth the abuse.*

On many issues, Carolly and I utterly disagree. But this isn't one of them.

She's hit the nail squarely on the head here.

Only I wouldn't dignify these nay-sayers by labeling them as "gunslingers"........I'd rather refer to them by a more apt term: whiny little cry-babies.

Every time that Curious Labs peeks into this forum, they find themselves immediately jumped on by shrill......people.........that seem to have nothing better to do than to spend their lives crying into their milk.

If I were CL, then I wouldn't particularly want to hang around these parts. I don't blame them for being "hit or miss" around here.

If my audience consisted of a bunch of kindergarteners yelling "MINE! MINE!!!! ME!!!!! ME!!!!!" -- and then screaming and throwing a tantrum when they didn't get their way -- then I wouldn't see much purpose in attempting to appease such a crowd, either. It's an exercise in futility. So why bother? Just issue an official statement or two, and then go to other places -- places where one can enjoy the company of their fellow adults engaged in adult conversations.

---

One often hears the analogy about the prevailing culture in the forums being "like herding cats".

No, it's not like herding cats.......that's too self-congratulatory of an analogy.....at least cats maintain a certain level of inward dignity.

A better analogy is that it's like tending a nursery school filled with whiny little brats who can't wipe their own......noses.....without crying hysterically about it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I have sent an e-mail to Curious Labs via their website's contact us page, about being an early adopter of P5. I never got an answer back, nor did I expect one really. P6 will simply not exist for me until I get an answer from them, no insults, no screaming in the forum, just silence from my credit card.

Dominique Digital Cats Media

Let me get this strait. Curious Labs sends me a coupon for $50 off any order that is $100 or more and is good till June 2005. I place my order but an unable to apply the coupon. I place the order anyways and will have the coupon applied to my order when they correct the problems. I contact Curious Labs who says then can't do anything contact Digital Rivers. I contact Digital Rivers who say they can't don anything contact Curious Labs. I contact Curious Labs who play dumb about the whole coupon issue. Three e-mails, the first over 2 weeks in replying, each taking 4 days and still not resolved. And you call us a "whiny little cry-babies." Reality check...

no insults, no screaming in the forum, just silence from my credit card.

That's an adult solution to an adult problem.

Curious Labs has a lot on their hands right now. And they are a very small company in terms of personnel.

They've already granted extra price breaks for the early-on serial # difficulties which some people experienced.

I'd give them time to work things out.

We'd want the same sort of indulgence for ourselves.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Let me get this strait. Curious Labs sends me a coupon for $50 off any order that is $100 or more and is good till June 2005. I place my order but an unable to apply the coupon. I place the order anyways and will have the coupon applied to my order when they correct the problems. I contact Curious Labs who says then can't do anything contact Digital Rivers. I contact Digital Rivers who say they can't don anything contact Curious Labs. I contact Curious Labs who play dumb about the whole coupon issue. Three e-mails, the first over 2 weeks in replying, each taking 4 days and still not resolved. And you call us a "whiny little cry-babies." Reality check...

I can't say that I've noted the "whiny" tendencies of some manifesting themselves in your particular posts.

There's nothing wrong with noting a problem. I've had problems with various companies before, myself.

But there is something wrong with attacking CL every time that they post in here.

If we wish to drive them off, then that's a good way to accomplish it.

Yelling at Katherine is equivalent to yelling at some hapless sales girl behind a store counter because the central office shipped you the wrong color of lace dolies.

In my experience, the quiet approach always works best.

Yelling is a good way to get people to ignore you. Message edited on: 03/08/2005 11:39

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I went and had a good walk out in the fields. Feel much better. "They've already granted extra price breaks for the early-on serial # difficulties which some people experienced." Some of us didn't get a chance with that one. How is stringing someone along, "we'll get you fixed up next week, every week," but next week never comes acting like an adult. I even stated in my first post, if anyone bothered to read it, that if they would have told me they wouldn't do anything to help, I could at lest have taken advantage of that savings. compiler- sorry, nothing personal. I was just getting flustered at the fact that we have said we,ve done the same as you with no results.

I signed up for the newsletter. Got it with no problem. Ordering P6 this week. Dont expect any there either. :: shrug :: Results may vary, guys.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Contact Digital Rivers again. (Americas Store) 952-646-5000 -or- 800-656-5426 (Global Store) 0044 (0) 870 44 32188 Explain that you could not get the Coupon to apply. Give them your order number and your Coupon Code. CL is right, there is nothing they can do about it. Digital Rivers is a Marketing Company for several companies, and depending on what call center your call is placed through will depend on your answer. They came up with a unique solution for me and I am happy. I should not have placed the order when the Coupon did not take, but I thought it could easily be fixed. It took almost a month of polite E-mails (6), IMs (3), and Phone Calls (2) to resolve the issue. On the other hand, if I had been a whiney little cry-baby demanding satisfaction, I would not expect to get the issue resolved.

ratscloset
aka John

I sent an email to CL on Feb 17 about the upgrade for early P5 buyers... I got an answer today March 8. This might give you an idea on how bad they are backed up. In the email, Tori says they are having to verify addresses, purchase dates and such from old records (my guess is old paper records) and it is really a slow process. CL is not a big company with 100s of people handling these orders, emails and other problems. I did order P6 before I recieved this email and I am eligible for the early buyer upgrade. It will take an email or 2 or a phone call to digital river to get this adjusted, but it will get straightened out. Just my 2 cents worth on the subject

'nuff said. :] Fish

I absolutely bought P5 pre-order and suffered through the Beta Program.
So did I. I thought I might not have been offered the pre-order discount because I changed my email address a while back and lost my old one. I emailed CL asking for the pre-order discount, but received an offer to upgrade for the non-pre-order discount price, which I did.

I just got this email:

Thank you for contacting Curious Labs regarding the Poser 5 Early Adopters Promotion. We apologize for the delay in responding, as we have had to verify all addresses against our previous lists. We have determined you are eligible for this special price to preorder Poser 6...

If you have any difficulties in placing your order, or have already placed an order and want to receive this discount, please contact Digital River directly at:

(Americas Store) 952-646-5000 -or- 800-656-5426
(Global Store) 0044 (0) 870 44 32188

I just called Digital River, gave my order number, was put straight through to an operator named Kim. She cancelled my old order and I got on CL's site and placed a new one, WITH THE DISCOUNT!

This only took about 15 minutes. Not bad when it was probably my fault that I did not get the upgrade notification in the first place (because of my old email address being on file at CL).

Good luck with your prob BAM, maybe you will get it sorted out eventually too.

I find it strange that you all think it's a sin to have a legit complaint, but it's OK to call people names and say it's all their fault. I was so looking forward to buying P6 that after 5 weeks, and a hell of a lot of emails and IM's, very polite to the point of gaging, that I finally said something. Iv'e been quiet about this since Dec. where it started till now. I'm amazed at the hostility towards me and the bragging on how you got what you wanted. Can you truely say you would not be disappointed if you had to wait as long as I have and take it with salt and vinegar. Not to mention the community that you have supported for a few years, turns on you without any thought. I just want an answer so I can go buy my P6. Sorry that that is a sin to you. BTW, nobody here has bashed the software. We wouldn't be complaining about not being able to buy P6 if we were.

For me there is only one answer to that problems: Next time for sure not to buy early. I will wait! Thomas

Yes, I did contact Digital Rivers and they did say I could cancel my order and then reorder it and apply the coupon to that order. Here is the Brain Teaser Question: Why would I not want to take them up on this offer?

"As for CL not being in these forums as much as they were 3-4 years ago? That is the direct fault of the handful of members here who went out of their way to shoot them on site... and who still lie in wait to target any employee of CL. We all lose because of these gunslingers." - Carolly

We are the terror that flaps on the 'Net! ;)

Dragged out by Hauksdottir as a boogeyman to frighten children and CL employees with. How mortifying. yawn

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

A few more notches and you'll cut through to the barrel... and THAT ought to be interesting.

Just received another e-mail from Curious Labs. Now they say they have "put a request in for an investigation." What is going on! They have my order. They have my coupon. Just honor it. What investigation? They just keep dragging this on and on and on for no reason. I can only guess they are trying to figure out some way they can come up with so they won't have to honor thier coupon.

Silent him >:)

Got to admit their Customer Service leaves much to be desired. Or maybe they have a list of their favorite people and everyone else gets to wait.... I pre-ordered, had my credit card info stolen, contacted these guys 2/25 to try to change the payment method. First you have to go through hoops on their web-site & you're forced to choose drop-down menu topics when you send them a question. Faced with no topic that matched my problem I picked the closest, Invoice, then typed in what the problem was. They did not read my e-mail at all, and rather sent me instructions on how to see my invoice online. This was after a day or two. So I sent them the e-mail again and asked them to actually read it. A few days later they've cancelled my order. "Sorry, there's no way to simply change your payment method. Please order again." Yes, but when I go to order now the special pricing is gone. So I sent them another e-mail about that. And they didn't read it again. I've received a few more "Thanks, we have cancelled your order" e-mails as I keep trying to point out the issue is now with actually ordering & prices. Finally I demanded a phone number. I have just received one in an e-mail. Today is 3/9. >< Now to see what happens... Geesh

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

To preorder curious labs products is an adventure..really.

To preorder curious labs products is an adventure..really.

"A few more notches and you'll cut through to the barrel... and THAT ought to be interesting." - Carolly

If CL pulls another P5 and bends all of these folks over and breaks it off in them again, you'll at least be able to list Judas Goat on your resume. THAT ought to be interesting. ;] Not that I'll give Curious Labs too hard a time over that, this time around: when they have this many people begging them to do it to them once again, and so many people like you running interference for them, the temptation has just got to be overwhelming for poor old Weinberg.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Larry gave us a reasonably comprehensive program for pennies... and it forced the bigger players to drop their prices. When I looked at Maya a few years back, it would have been $30,000 for a single basic seat of the software and more for the add-ons PLUS another $12,000 for the SGI box to run it on. Now? Maya, Lightwave, 3DStudio are all under $10,000 and an independent artist working at home can afford any of them. For that we all should be grateful. We have choice. Poser isn't perfect. I run into walls with it, too. But I didn't pay $30,000 either. (For that sort of price I'd expect it to read my mind, render the movie, and provide fresh buttered popcorn.) For what it does, Poser is an incredible value... and allows even hobbyists to make art and to share it. As much as we snicker at NVITWAS, the average joe has made an image and put his name on it and was brave enough to post it in public. He got views and got ego strokes and after a roguh day in the office that has value. It might not be Art, but it has made him happier. You might not like happy hobbyists, but depriving a couple hundred thousand people of a tool just to feed your own ego seems terribly selfish to me. So... what have YOU given the community? Larry gave us an award-winning piece of software that allows us all to make something according to our skills, and priced it within our budget. What in high heaven have you done? Carolly

The price & use of Poser isn't the point Carolly. lol Just reminded me of my e-mails with their customer service. What happened when Poser 5 came out tarnished CL's reputation. Now, once again, on "faith" many are venturing into the CL waters. Even though they seem to be going about promoting Poser 6 the same way. We really don't know what we're paying for yet. Me, I figured I skipped P5 anyways, so not much to lose. I'll just be picking up a few more figures while the bugs get ironed out.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

What I'm going to be interested in seeing is how many naysayers currently excercising their vast talents of prejudgement, if proven wrong by CL having a near flawless release of P6 (note the phrase near flawless. No software is perfect), will have the same level of moral courage to admit they were wrong as they seem to possess the moral outrage to keep a 2 year old fubar bright and shiny enough to take out and wave in people's faces. I rather doubt there will be many.

Actually Caly, it isn't on 'faith'. It's based on how the entire program -series- has performed. P5 was the proverbial royal mongolian clusterf*ck of a release, no question. However, we also know that CL's parent company was in the process of going under...and being owned, CL didn't have any choice in the release matter except to obey their bosses. And you have to factor in exactly what was under the hood; P5 was a quantum leap over the 4 previous versions. The hair room by itself would have been a monster to perfect in one shot...and they had that, the dynamic cloth, the face room. I've said it before; the fact that P5 works at all is more than slightly amazing. P4's release was a bugfest as well...remember? All that's really changed in the dynamic is us, the users. Back then, people experimented and found uses for the bugs, and turned them into features. Now, there is much more of a 'I want it now and I don't want to think about it' mentality...which isn't exactly compatible with CG artwork at any realistic level. EGISys never impressed me as a stable company; it seemed too much like one of the many dotcom start ups that didn't have the business sense needed. E-frontier is a very different animal, being on release 7 of a popular pro modellingrendering app, and having survived in one of the more brutal business environments in the world. CL has the support of a company that has the capitol and the technical expertise to actually be an active partner in the process. That =does= change the equation a bit. At least in my book.

Attached Link: http://www.s1.hashmirror.com/ftp/VM/Hx_animation/evolution.html

You know what this is all? Its all about customer service or the lack there of. I shouldn't take 8 e-mails and 2 phone calls to get something corrected. Now you would think that given the order number and given the coupon number that an adjustment would be made. 2 + 2 = 4. But no. 2 + 2 = we have to look into now. Go figure. As far as Poser being the reason for dropping the prices on high end software you may want to look at a video on the history of 3D applications.

Makes ya proud to have been an Amiga user, doesn't it? ;0)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

"few more notches and you'll cut through to the barrel..." - Carolly

You carve notches on the grips, not the barrels. And gunslingers don't carve notches - we leave that to the movie lot gunfighter wannabes like you. > "So... what have YOU given the community?" - Carrolly

Quite a bit. And you? Nice to see you reaching so fast for the last refuge of the rhetorically incompetent. Drugstore gunslinger. > "You might not like happy hobbyists, but depriving a couple hundred thousand people of a tool just to feed your own ego seems terribly selfish to me." - Carrolly

You might not like people pointing out that CL looks to be repeating a number of the same behaviours they have in previous releases, but enabling them in that potential behavior at the potential expense of your fellow community members merely to feed your ego seems terribly pernicious to me. > "Larry gave us a reasonably comprehensive program for pennies... and it forced the bigger players to drop their prices." - Carolly

That's an interesting interpretation of the reasons the pro-end companies dropped their prices. And you are basing that on what, precisely? Larry also spent a number of posts in this forum and the Beta forum here last release accusing legetimate users with problems of warezing, rather than admit there might be problems. It took Kammerer finally badgering Cooper almost into a breakdown in Beta forum before Steve Cooper finally admitted in detail what the situations behind the release were. A conveniently deleted forum now, which is an excellent thing for the revisionist history afficianados like yourself. > "What I'm going to be interested in seeing is how many naysayers currently excercising their vast talents of prejudgement, if proven wrong by CL having a near flawless release of P6 (note the phrase near flawless." - DaleB

I haven't prejudged the software, Dale. It hasn't been released yet. However, the same can't be said for Carroly and a number of the others who are jumping rabidly at the throats of anyone who dares to state that CL doesn't exactly have a good track record over the past six years. They're making the same "prejuding" error that you're accusing the naysayers of: prejudging that it's going to be a truly wondrous thing. And having watched that company, Wienberg included, and it's past actions in regards to this community, the weight of evidence is strongly in favor of the pessimistic. Many of the same people are still managing the Poser end of the company even after e-Frontiers bought it, so insisting they've turned a new leaf is a bit premature. Wait and see. I don't have a real problem with Poser, nor with CL as it currently exists. Yet. I'll reserve judgement on that to see what the release looks like, and what the actual [non-Rendo forums] reviews say. I do have a problem with the rabid fanboys who seem to be taking it as a deeply personal affront whenever someone mentions the past history, and suggests that waiting might be a better plan. Or suggests that they're not going to buy the new version because they no longer trust CL after the previous one. The people who were burned in this before have a perfect right to express their opinions and histories with the previous release, and to point to links, and to suggest that people coming into this more recently might want to wait and see what happens before pulling out the credit cards. ANd to point out problems with the current pre-order. They have every much a right to do so as someone has to ignore that and pre-order it anyway. And they both have a right to do it without having the CL Suckup Brigade tar and feather them based on nothing except bile and wishful thinking. I'm not going to prejudge P6 at all, aside from what I see as well deserved skepticism. I will prejudge hell out of the poserites playing Judas Goat for their supposed friends and fellow community members. Gorra problem with that, mate? > "Actually Caly, it isn't on 'faith'. It's based on how the entire program -series- has performed." - DaleB

And so was Poser 4. I remember the unfixed buglists from that one that still weren't fixed several years after. I still have links to several of them. And PPP was a clusterfuck. And P5.... and there were quite a few people like John Hoagland who dug into the guts of P5 and figured out that many of the unaddressed bugs from P4 were still present. It's the same codebase. And Keohane's already stated back aways that they're not addressing the codebase in this version: it's going to be SR5.5, with some new 3rd party add-ons. Look up the "new features" yourself: they're all things that are incorporated into the current Pixels3D Tempest engine. Just hooks added, Tempest features incorporated, and switches enabled. No makey. Lets us hope tha tWienberg learned from the last experience and now has a handle on how to incorporate 3rd party features into his six year old code withoyt adding new breakage. He should by now. I hope it works. Just don't kid yourself that you're getting something new aside from the bolt-on toys and possibly a new SR. Comapnies already said what the case is. Buy it or don't buy it on that basis, but do it on a real appraisal, based on your knowledge of how Wienberg's coding's worked in the past, not on wishful thinking. > "P4's release was a bugfest as well...remember? All that's really changed in the dynamic is us, the users." - DaleB

And not much, or always for the better at that. ;) I recall that you were pretty hot on the Lynch CL bandwagon following Poser 5. I'd have to page through old links to verify, and I'm lazy atm, but we were in a lot of the same threads back then, no? > "However, we also know that CL's parent company was in the process of going under...and being owned, CL didn't have any choice in the release matter except to obey their bosses." - DaleB

So they've said. And all of the people who've said it were in the CL side of the equation - and the recently canned side too boot - not on the EGIsys side of it. The outright misrepresentations that many of them propogated on their customer base and later copped to renders them less then sterling sources on that. EGIsys makes an easy target for that, and there's no corroborating nor conflicting statements. Those people proved their word wasn't trustworthy on P5 - why should it be trustworthy on "who's fault it was"? So much for "not on faith, Caly". > " E-frontier is a very different animal, being on release 7 of a popular pro modellingrendering app, and having survived in one of the more brutal business environments in the world. CL has the support of a company that has the capitol and the technical expertise to actually be an active partner in the process." - DaleB

I agree. A problem with this is that they kept one of the key components to the previous fiascos.... that should give anyone with a memory longer than 2 weeks - to swipe Legume's infamous phrase - a bit of pause. Two of them, counting Keohane... however he seems to be missing from the current CL exec lineup. However, if P6 bombs, they can always blame Unka Larry. > "And you have to factor in exactly what was under the hood; P5 was a quantum leap over the 4 previous versions." - DaleB

I am factoring in exactly what was under the hood: Poser 4 code with 3rd party plugins. Hair, the dynamic cloth, the face room - none of that was a CL engineered innovation. It was all bought and plugged in. Again, go hunt up the antecedents of the "new" features. Shadow catching, ambient occulisions, subsurface scattering - all additions to the tempest engine and the Pixel's 3D app, not CL written. Bet on it. The quantum leap isn't coming from Weinberg or CL - he hasn't managed a quantum leap since Poser 2 to Poseer 3. ************************************ Pretty muchly, Dale, Carroly, we'll see. If Poser 6 is going to be worth the release price, then it will be in spite of the naysayers. If it isn't, then it won't be in spite of your hyperventilating over it. Curious Labs can handle their own PR. They don't need you to run interference for them. Hire on there as a PR flack, and be an honest whore. And get paid for it.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

I was one of the ones who seemed to not be having the kinds of trouble others were Bear, and asking about things like system configuration, to see if maybe the problem was solvable by cleaning up some issues at the user end. I work retail for a living. I'm already an honest whore. >:) I'm factoring the 3rd party plugins, new rendering engine, and so on myself. On top of aging, Mac based-Windows ported code. As I've said before, it was a miracle it runs at all, never mind how well it runs. I haven't made up my mind at the moment, as I don't have the app in hand to decide -with- (but frankly, I'm a little concerned with the instability that OpenGL could introduce). People do have the right to be hesitant, if they feel the need. But frankly, there has been more than a little exhumation of vitriol that should have been left buried a year ago. So P5 sucked rocks out of the gate. That was 2 years ago. This is P6. Those who will never touch another CL app to save their life are pretty much irrelevant in this matter...save only as a vocal minority, much of which apparently won't feel happy until they find the coffin and stake the bloodsucker personally. My concerns are more for the newbies who weren't here, and have no idea of the past history of the debate, and the personalities behind it. If it falls on its ass well and good. It will deserve the roasting it gets. But fairness demands that it be allowed to make the attempt, without mean spirited attempts at sabotage. And that isn't accusing you, Bear, but you can't deny that some of the rubbish has been just that. Hells bells, we're even getting naysayers over in the Vue forum about Infinite, and that tends to be one of the most laid back fora here. Makes me wonder what's being put in the water, y'know?

Makes me wonder what's being put in the water, y'know?

Not Kryptonite Kool-Aid, I hope. But to echo the sentiments of some much Poser-smart than i: If we don't upgrade to P6, who will? And if no one will will there be a P7?

Money makes the economy go round and no one should have to be stupid enough to cough up $89 or $129 or god-knows-how-many-euros for nothing on faith. But whether we use Poser for work or enjoy it as a hobby or even as a revenue stream on DAZ, what is the existence of a P7 worth to us? Surely more than nothing.

Sometimes it may not be stupid to give loyalty to those who do not necessarily seem, right now, to be worthy of it.

God knows I don't want the job of writing the code, or the task of selling it to the unwashed masses (of whom I am one), but someone has to do it, or surely there will never be a P7, and I for one want to see it.

Might surpise you, but I actually agree with you, Dale. Especially on given the ancient code based that wasn't designed to interface with the new coding, I think they did wonderfuly to get SR4 stable. And that's not a slap - it's an honest assessment of the coding problems from someone who used to play wih code. That's why I'm not taking Poser 6 apart before it even hits the shelves. I know what kind of mess e-Frontiers inherited. Same time, that "Don't prejudge" crap that people keep spouting cuts both ways. Agree? There is no more basis for the assumption that e-Frontiers wil force Wienberg to pull a habit out of his rat this time than there is to assume that P6 will be a P5 fiasco. However, the skeptics have a lot more weight of experience on their side than the optimists. ;] Especially since a lot of the business model history looks to be repeating itself. There's an easy way to get me out of the discussion: the CL apologists can back the fuck up and let the buyers make up their minds without them running interference for CL. Let CL do their own PR. Let CL make their own announcements, without the forum weasel brigade advance selling it for them. Wait and see what they actually deliver, rather than encuraging people to pre-order on hype. Let them actually show if they've learned anything, and if they're serious about making good on their past fiascos. Let them deliver, or not. Then determine what to do if it's "Not". Don't want to wait for that, get ready to deal with the old wolves like me that don't like seeing the community shafted with the tacit and implict aid of its own. Like I said, Curious Labs can do this without ya'll's help and without my hindance. But if they get the one, you will get the other. And I won't bother with CL much this time - I'll let them wreck themselves: I'll go straight for the Judas Goats. Bank on it. ;)

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Very interesting thoughts from everyone. I still have not heard anything from Curious Labs. The latest excuse presented in a later thread seems to have to do with everyone from CL being at a tradeshow. By the way, Just to remind everyone, I have not prejudged P6. I just want the opportunity to buy it at the cheapest price that I am truely entitled to.

dishonest whores Judas Goats forum weasels rabid fanboys flacks apologists revisionist history afficianados wannabes Any other insults that you care to throw around? You remind me of a worn-out wind-up teddy bear grinding his gears with the same old statements from years ago because someone forgot to change your chip. If there wasn't new software on the horizon, you wouldn't even be in here... you'd be off being ignored in some dark corner. The only importance you have is in being negative? Enjoy your fame... because your only contribution to this community for the last 5 years has been attempting to destroy what others have built. Wow. Such a life... smirking amid the broken glass... examing a shard and yawning because you don't understand it... not seeing its beauty but cursing when it cuts... how terribly, pitifully entertaining in such a miniscule manner. BTW, among the things you appear to have forgotten is that there is a difference between posture and position. Carolly

Supposedly this is foolish, but foolishness is an inconsistent hobgoblin. In any case: Extract: "Might surpise you, but I actually agree with you, Dale. Especially on given the ancient code based that wasn't designed to interface with the new coding, I think they did wonderfuly to get SR4 stable. And that's not a slap - it's an honest assessment of the coding problems from someone who used to play wih code." Comment: Beg pardon, sir, but that's bullshit. That is an expressed opinion from someone who would do it differently -- honest, perhaps, but hardly a fair assessment. While it may not have been intended as a slap, perhaps habit interfered -- it reads terribly. The term backhanded compliment comes to mind. Extract: "Same time, that "Don't prejudge" crap that people keep spouting cuts both ways. Agree?" Comment: not that I matter, but agreed. Note, however, that the "rise of the apologists" is directly contributable to the vociferousness of those who continue to use the "old code", "piss poor people", "incompetent idiots", and similar arguments (all of which are, bluntly, patently obvious to be in error by the fact that the program has somehow defied all reasonable business expectations and continued to both grow in marketshare and move further along a development path. So, in a very real sense, you could be held accountable for the creation of many of these "apologists" simply through the sheer force of your rhetoric. (For reference, however, note that the rise of the "bashers" is in response to old, dead horse, history, and has left a wellspring of "skepticism" that feeds them.) Extract: "There is no more basis for the assumption that e-Frontiers wil force Wienberg to pull a habit out of his rat this time than there is to assume that P6 will be a P5 fiasco." You seem to assume that he has something to do with it. Given that your general posting history indicates a personal animosity towards him (evidenced in the extract), this would put your efforts at discrediting into the "muckraking" section. Muckraking is an important service, mind you. But it also has some limits (extremism being one of them). Extract: "However, the skeptics have a lot more weight of experience on their side than the optimists. ;] Especially since a lot of the business model history looks to be repeating itself." Comment: Skeptics always have more weight -- history is irrelevant. It is easier to doubt (and, apparently, more gleeful). Skepticism, however, is just as applicable to optimism as it is to pessimism, and to claim refuge in it while being, generally, pessimistic is a disservice to the "cause" of skepticism, if you will. A truly skeptical person is going to doubt what is known just as fervently as what is not known. You fail that test, both by example above and in other postings. Optimism requires a greater degree of fortitude and character than pessimism. For the simple reason that it takes more strength to be positive and hopeful in the face of potential loss. Seems to exacerbate the issue. Extract: "There's an easy way to get me out of the discussion: the CL apologists can back the fuck up and let the buyers make up their minds without them running interference for CL. Let CL do their own PR. Let CL make their own announcements, without the forum weasel brigade advance selling it for them. Wait and see what they actually deliver, rather than encuraging people to pre-order on hype. Let them actually show if they've learned anything, and if they're serious about making good on their past fiascos. Let them deliver, or not." Comment: And you are? Other than the administrator and most vocal critic of Several members of Curious Labs, idiocy in action, left wing politics, and the vast bulk of websites (excepting your own, of course) surrounding this program, that is. Being nobody of any importance anywhere within the "poser scene" or whatever it is called, and being a causal observer at best of that, I find that statement to be, well, rather humorous. Chiefly because I have to wonder why folks would want you to stay out of the discussion. I've seen little in the last four years from you alone that warrants any sort of concern beyond the verbal venom you and some of your friends have been known to spout. Venom that is only as worthwhile as the time taken to read it. Aside from that, what you are basically saying is that no one is supposed to be saying anything "positive" about Poser 6 other than Curious Labs, while anyone is free to say whatever they want "negative". Which is not only Not the "American Way", as I understand it, but is also rather uncharacteristically foolish on your part. I would prefer you to propose something much more conducive to actual fairness: A specific forum/post where all the people who want to say something positive can do so right up against the people saying something negative -- a real freeforall, with all the figurative bloodletting and carnage so pleasantly associated with such absurdities. Would be more open, and provide a self professed carnivore such as yourself with plenty of spoils. (I'm led to understand that such a thread would not be possible here, but perhaps over at this www.xfx-3d.com site where your "radio free" thing is. It would at least allow the victims of character assassination from here the opportunity to defend themselves.) People will always defend what they claim. People who are unhappy will always strike at what bugs them. Since we do not live in an agrarian-pastorilist society where some form of bucolic libertarianism might be practiced were it not for the critical flaw of having people there, they will generally do it in a format that is acceptable overall. This appears to be the one for Poser. Rather than acting like some King's Messenger and stopping the discussion, perhaps you should join in without the pessimism and still retaining that healthy skepticism of yours. It might do more good. And it would free you of the "pre-judging" you yourself have already succumbed to due to your pessimism. Fools and their money are soon parted. If it wasn't spent on pre-release versions of what you have essentially called a bloated service release, it would be spent on equally mundane content for said program. Those that are excited about it will be excited. And when someone comes in to rain out their sunny day, they will get snippy. eh. Get over it.

"Might surpise you, but I actually agree with you, Dale. Especially on given the ancient code based that wasn't designed to interface with the new coding, I think they did wonderfuly to get SR4 stable. And that's not a slap - it's an honest assessment of the coding problems from someone who used to play wih code." Doesn't surprise me a bit. I know from past talk that you are an old school coder, like I used to be, and have a clue just how much baggage a Mac to Win 3.1 port created, and how hard it was to dig out (probably why they went to the Win2k spec finally; better memory management and just truncate about half the issues by amputating the 9x codebase). And it is honest. "Same time, that "Don't prejudge" crap that people keep spouting cuts both ways. Agree?" Definitely. That was why =I= got into it. There was a decided overbalance of the 'P5 Suxxor!! Die Cl Die!!!' cannula drippings oozing back to the surface, along with the 'Trust me fools, wait until it's available on Ebay for $5. Only an idiot pre-orders' yadda-yadda-belch-fart. "However, the skeptics have a lot more weight of experience on their side than the optimists. ;] Especially since a lot of the business model history looks to be repeating itself." They do? They have one blown release out of five. And from my memory, a lot of the pre-release cheerleading was being done by some of the same individuals referenced above. And in any case, you know the software business if you used to code. A new release that doesn't sell for a few months will sink -any- company... Remember the panic M$ experienced when all those twinkies who'd found Win2k didn't upgrade to XP? And all those subtle 'changes for security's sake' that essentially will attempt to force people to upgrade and pay no matter what their preferences? "There's an easy way to get me out of the discussion: the CL apologists can back the fuck up and let the buyers make up their minds without them running interference for CL. Let CL do their own PR. Let CL make their own announcements, without the forum weasel brigade advance selling it for them. Wait and see what they actually deliver, rather than encuraging people to pre-order on hype. Let them actually show if they've learned anything, and if they're serious about making good on their past fiascos. Let them deliver, or not. Then determine what to do if it's "Not"." I don't see statements like 'factor in the fact that the company is in the hands of an actual graphics production firm with quite a few years existance and a reputation in a rather demanding market' as being apologistic. Nor do I think I've been out cheerleading others to do anything but look at =all= the facts before deciding. Not just whichever group is being cutest. I'd be willing to zip it on the 'Don't prejudge P6 on what happened with P5 2 years and two distinct management teams ago' if the CL haters would do likewise. Twasn't I who drew steel first, good sir. There have been no 'California Dreaming' threads this go around; all the noise has pretty much been from the spiritual bastard offspring of NaySayGuy (sorry Doc... :P ), with the CL fanclub and middle of the roadies chiming in after the 734 day old monkey feces has been thrown at the rotary impeller yet -again-. Besides, you're unknown to a whole generation here O:) "Don't want to wait for that, get ready to deal with the old wolves like me that don't like seeing the community shafted with the tacit and implict aid of its own." That cuts both ways; deliberately wrecking CL when they may have gotten their act back together and be ready to rock will be shafting the community even worse. Hell, for what little I'm paying I don't mind being a test subject. Gives me a little running start on the learning curve...

Let Curious Labs answer for themselves instead of running and hiding and telling everyone in the company, "don't answer any phone calls." Cowards, and as someone once said here, cry babies.

Any other insults that you care to throw around? Well if we're going to mention stuff that could be considered insulting... Looking up before Ironbear even posted, what do I see? nay-sayers smirks of the jackals a more apt term: whiny little cry-babies bunch of kindergarteners yelling at least cats maintain a certain level of inward dignity whiny little brats can't wipe their own......noses without crying hysterically whiney little cry-baby demanding satisfaction and so on. ^^

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

Exactly, and what do you hear from Curious Labs? Silence... Still in hiding mode.

Oh for God's sake. Do you really think they are sitting around twiddling their thumbs and hiding in the corners? CL is not hiding. They are busy trying to get things ready for the release. You know what? Instead of complaining, be proactive and think of solutions. If you think you can write a better program, do it. If you think you can make better models, do it.

Why don't you let Curious Labs speak for themselves? Oh yeah, their too busy to bother with the customer. And you are a company spokesperson for Curious Labs. No. Just a wantabe. Oh, too bad. I'm sure Curious Labs will have nothing to do with you either. That really is poetic justice isn't it.

I'm not speaking for CL. I'm speaking for the 95% of people here who are very tired of hearing the other 5% complain about whatever issue is the burning complaint of the week.

Message edited on: 03/11/2005 11:50

"Enjoy your fame... because your only contribution to this community for the last 5 years has been attempting to destroy what others have built." Care to make a bet on that Carolly? I guarentee yer 100% wrong on it.

It's getting a little warm in here. Could we please turn down the flames before my thread gets locked. Anyone heard from CL directly and personally on their customer support issues?

No. I gave up. I ordered at full price. I wanted P6 that bad. I also doubt I'll ever spend anything there again. To bad, I was interested in the shade content disks, the one they have and the up and coming ones. They also had the nerve to tell me on my invoice that I can get 10% off my next purchace. Like that's going to happen.

The final e-mail I received was that THEY (Curious Labs) couldn't adjust the order to reflect the coupon discount because THEIR system wasn't designed to do that. I have to cancel my order and then reorder again. Of course in the process I will also loose the 15% serial number discount in the process because their system isn't designed to adjust for that either. So it looks like the final option for me is to blow off the 15% discount, cancel the order, reorder and capture the coupon discount. After all the positve expierences I have had with Curious Labs through the years. And I own most of their products. This really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I still cannot order. Tried again last night. It is certain that Katherine (et al) is working hard to get the missing user data all reconstructed, but this is getting ridiculous. In some ways, I'm glad that I couldn't place an order - a bad order where all of the entitlements are cancelled because DR doesn't have proper facilities. My financial situation isn't so great that saving $40-50 is not a concern. And I know the feeling, InfoCentral. Despite the trumpeted preorder successes, all in all, this is an overall disaster when a significant percentage of your solid user-base is left out in the cold or shafted...

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

What's the big benefit of pre-ordering? I mean if you don't care about the Snow Queen? Is the price cheaper? From past stories, it doesn't seem the pre-orders get Poser any faster.

Nothing to do with faster. 1. Special Edition "Snow Queen" is a nice collector's item as it were. 2. Cheaper?! As an "Early Adopter", I get the upgrade for $89. With the 'supposed' 15% discount for DR's f--kup, that price goes to $75.65. Is that less expensive than $129? 41% savings on the upgrade price alone (not to mention the base pricing)! Let's see if they hold up their end of the bargain. I don't care how long past the preorder deadline is.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I hear ya'. For me it's going to be like $20 more. What irratates me is that CL isn't taking responsibility for their website screw-ups, I have too. Their website refused to take my coupon like it should of but now I have to cancel my order and then reorder again (hoping it works) and blow off the 15% discount. Did you know that Animation Master is very similar to Poser? It has pose slider instead of dials and libraries for clothes and poses etc. just like Poser. I found that very interesting.

Some of us don't qualify for the early adopter price or the Digital River screwup compensation. So the original question remains: what incentive is there for me to Pre-order Poser 6? If you ignore the Snow Queen?

I already own Shade 7 Standard and I already have a copy of the training book for Shade. So really the only incentive for me to pre-order would be to get that free Drag Queen content I guess.