I IM'ed you almost a month ago, should I stop waiting?

I'm still trying to find out why the cost of downloading Poser 6 for an Australian is so much more expensive than for an American.

I know our Free Trade Agreement means there are no additional duties or taxes, and there is no shipping cost, so the cost should be the same as a US customer. Yet the store only gives me the option of paying as a European customer, at an inflated cost.

tyd2, are you saying it is forcing you to pay in Euros? Or? No option to pay in dollars? ::::: Opera :::::

It forces me to the "International" store, where the only currency options are Euros or Pounds, both of which convert to much higher than the $US amount. I used a link someone else posted which took me directly to the US store, where you do have the option of $US, but when I go to order it says "The product you have selected is not available in your area."

Ditto tyd2. We're paying the shipping costs as appropropriate, but we're damned if we have to pay brokerage or currency exchange fees for a ridiculous intermediate currency. Digital River, hear our cries. In this era of electronic fund transfers and automatic currency conversions, don't punish your Southern Hemisphere clients unnecessarily. Let OUR credit providers do the currency exchange and bill us in $US.

---

My ShareCG Stuff

Verbosity: Profusely promulgating Graham's number epics of complete and utter verbiage by the metric monkey barrel.

I agree, I would buy it right now if I could access the US store, however it looks like I will be giving it a miss. Richard (sydney, Australia)

I believe the upgrade price is $79US = $100.33AU (exchange rate 1.27 SUS/$AU
The price shown on C/L's website is 119EU = $202AU (exchange rate 1.7 EU/$AU)
Richard

Message edited on: 03/14/2005 09:13

Frankly I am not happy about free trade anyway. It has just caused Americans jobs and put our economy in a real tail spin. Between a very unpopular war (regardless of the speal put out), I for one do not want America (my country) to have there new world order. We have no health care for millions of Americans and many more will join the roles if cuts are made in medicare (Social Security now, Medicare next). Import taxes would stop the bleeding of jobs to poor countries who can't protect there people from predatory corporations. Sorry Curious Labs, I think you are heroic for staying an American Company. I would rather help them start there own companies with there own people leading them. We have been teaching people for years and helping financially to get them started. By the way, Americans can not afford medican from Canada any more because the dollar has lost so much of it's value. Now, we can not afford medicine in America or Canada. Sorry all about the soap box, and I am sorry for a whole lot of things. A man I know that has to sell his little home to get surgery on a brain tumor. My Son!!! He lost everything including his child.

Curious Labs, don't treat us like small-time nobodies you can just lump in with Europe. I mean, right here in Adelaide, South Australia we have a visual FX house that worked on movies such as Lord of the Rings: Return of the King, Batman Begins, Sky Captain and the World of Tommorrow, and Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire: Rising Sun Pictures, http://www.rsp.com.au/

Sorry, line 1 of 3rd paragraph. Should be medication

I believe that Curious Labs is a Japannese company now.

OOP's Sorry My Mistake! All companys who remain in the United States then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just one minor correction: The $79.00US price for Poser 6 UPGRADE is for those who PRE-ORDERED Poser 5. When those folks pre-ordered then, they got that discount for Poser 6. The rest of us if we pre-ordered Poser 6 UPGRADE (from Poser 5) got the $129.00US price.(and the additional content, new box, Shade LE) Pre-order regular price is $239.00US

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

"Frankly I am not happy about free trade anyway. It has just caused Americans jobs and put our economy in a real tail spin."

Hey, I'm with you. "Free Trade" helps the citizens of no country, only the corporations.

But I'm talking about CL exporting without additional costs to international buyers, which should actually help them get more sales (their country of origin aside).

Our FTA actually means we're not adding additional costs at this end, so the software should be the same price.

Can anyone do the math and show exactly how much extra the Aussies have to pay because (apparently) the difference in posted price is different than the exchange rate? For one given option, what is the US price, what would it be at the current exchange, and what is CL charging at the international store. I don't know why CL and others like E-On do not give their reason for not simply going with the current exchange. Yes, I know, one reason could be explitation, but there could be other costs intrinsic to them doing business across borders (i don't mean the obvious ones). I wish they would make some sort of statement. ::::: Opera ::::

I'm sorry but I don't understand what the problem is here. I live in Quec and I have to pay $150.25US for the upgrade from P5 to P6 (special edition). It is $129.00US plus $21.25US for shipping. Depending on the exchange rate the day they will ship it, this will cost me between $200CD and $250CD... which is a lot considering I bought Poser 5 less than a year ago and that it cost me over $400CD at the time. France

France, Proud Owner of

KCTC Freebies  

Here is the official response from Curious Labs after about 5 emails were exchanged - I too am in Australia and followed up on why I was charged in Euros - I did post this in another thread but here it is again.

***"We apologize for the problems you have been encountering.

The reason you can not order threw the US site is because the shippers
do not ship to Australia or New Zealand from the US. We do not have
control over how the currency is used on the website .

Thank you for contacting the online store's Customer Support. If you
have any further questions or concerns, please "reply" to this e-mail.

Sincerely,
Michelle B.
Customer Care Center"

---

So no way out of it - you have to pay in Euros and wear the extra $AUD 42 before shipping..... Not that that makes me happy but that seems to be Digital River's Policy - along with fact they can't spell either...

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

I hate to kibbitz about spelling, but the head of the customer service department should REALLY know the difference between "threw" and "through." I "threw" the ball and it went "through" the window. Okay?

(/rant)

I just checked out both DigitalRiver shops (US Domestic and Europe), and the prices are as following:

For US citizens prices are :

Poser 6 Standalone = $239
Upgrade from Poser4/PP = $149
Upgrade from Poser 5 = $129

For Non-US citizens prices are :

Poser 6 Standalone = 219 = $292
Upgrade from Poser4/PP = 129 = $172
Upgrade from Poser 5 = 119 = $159

So the extra profit made by selling outside US is =

Poser 6 standalone = $73
Upgrade from Poser4/PP = $43
Upgrade from Poser 5 = $40

...given todays conversion rates.

These are just the costs for the product without any extra costs like shipping/import tax or VAT added, as these can vary for each country.

stahlratte

::::: Opera ::::

My Invoice for Shipping to Victoria, Australia is:

Poser 6: 109,65 EUR
Shipping: 52,42 EUR
Total: 162.07 EUR

At today's exchange Rate = $AUD 274.992

As I said above and in other posts - had I have been able to order in $US, it would have meant a difference of about $42 before shipping...

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

I got stung by this also. Here in NZ our dollar is at a 20 yr high against the US dollar but NO I have to pay in Euros. Rip off! I wanted the Boxed Set but at 52 Eur shipping, that was more than I paid for Poser 6 (with discounts and rebates). Overnight, haha what a joke. There's no way that they could ship it to me in NZ overnight, so why the stupid shipping charges. Coupled to the poor Poser5 Mac integration, I'm Very disappointed now and somehow I think I will also be disappointed later. If it wasn't for the Shade bundle I wouldn't have raised to the bait at all.

Just clarify my previous post - the $AUD 42 was at the time of order on todays rate that is now $AUD 46.92 before shipping. In another thread someone speculated that Digital River were using the Euro as a hedge against the flucuations in the $US - I know we have had some wild exchange rates with the $US at times - but I seriously doubt if the $US would have fluctuated by about 25% since the 19th Feb.

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

Hey kaveman, I sure hope our boxes are worth the extra 52 EUR! I'm going to frame mine after all, I am paying about 1/2 of What Poser 6 cost before shipping!:)

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

Thanks stahlratte for your clear table of comparison. Meanwhile tastiger's email from them did not focus in on the real question. All to be learned is the stated reason why the system won't let you purchase in dollars. It does not address the question "why can't I purchase in Euros or $AU at the current exchange rate." And I also 'threw up' when I saw that grammar! We could sit here and speculate. I know some people assume it is out-and-out mean spirited rip off exploitation. The opposite assumption is: there is a cost completely outside the obvious that must be covered when selling internationally, something having nothing to do with shipping or VAT. In between would be: bureaucratic rigidity ("I'm setting the price and can't be bothered to have it fluctuate as the Euro goes up and down") thru "the software engineers say we can't do the fluctuation" etc." Also, CL might not be in control of the situation. It may be being dictated to them by Digital River. And yes, that is not an excuse; when you get married to a cliearing house/fullfillment system like Digital River, you get certain efficiency, but sacrifice human interaction and live customer support. I don't have an answer...but I certainly think it would be in the interest of Curious Labs, for whom I have tremendous respect, to either sell at the exchange rate equivelent, or give at least a partial truthful reason why they have to charge the extra $40. ::::: Opera :::::

'I hate to kibbitz about spelling, but the head of the customer service department should REALLY know the difference between "threw" and "through." I "threw" the ball and it went "through" the window. Okay?' You think that's bad? Here's a quote from the inside (right-hand) cover of my Poser 5 cd. 'IMPORTANT! Do not loose or throw away!' I mean . . . COME ON! A company puts out software at international level and makes a spelling mistake like that? -------------------------------- Om a different note, I sent katherine 2 IMs. I pre-ordered P5 and wanted the 'early-adopter' discount. No replies. Not a sausage. Bad show, chaps! It doesn't inspire customer confidence at all. mac

If I were to make a web page about it, "Loose" would be in the top three. I lose my temper when someone looses one of those boners near me. And I really don't know why so many confuse "waist" with "waste" -- unless their bathroom hygiene leaves MUCH to be desired. (It is the way of the world that I will have made at least one glaring typo in this message.) ^_^;;

Poser 6 Standalone US$ 239 = NZ$ 324 ERO 219 = NZ$ 396 Yes folk that's a staggering $72.00 overcharged and Freight is $95.00 And believe me it's just as hard to earn a dollar down here, "Money, it's a crime Share it fairly, but don't take a slice of my pie Money, so they say Is the root of all evil today But if you ask for a rise, it's no surprise that they're giving none away"

Hi all, First the issue of currency. The way Digital River sets territories has to do with where they ship from. Their US fulfillment ships to the Americas where as the UK ships to Europe and rest of world (including Australia). Pricing has been set with best possible rate so as to cover back end charges concurred with either physical shipments or electronically download of server costs. We have also not passed on the majority of back-end costs associated with DR for regions outside of the US which means the $40 extra is much less than 50% of added expense. Some have asked about real-time currency conversion rates. Curious Labs is not a direct-sales company only. Retail customers need pricing consistency which is why Curious Labs amongst many other manufacturers are not able to offer real-time currency conversion rates. In fact, many only offer a 1 to 1 ratio. If sold in Euros, they price 100 US dollars as 100 Euros. We have tried our best to keep pricing fair worldwide for the release of Poser 6. Last, on the topic of IM's. I would guess that many are not aware of my role at Curious Labs but the level of responsibility under my position means that I have less than desired time to work individually with each one of you. The issue of sending IM's was to resolve the serial number issue and those who were early adopters of Poser 5 who should have received the early adopters upgrade special. Many of you have sent all kinds of questions via IM which I have tried to get to, but again - impossible when you consider the volume of more than 300 IM's a day with one answer causing many follow up questions from each single individual. I sincerely wish it were possible to speak individually with all, regarding all questions, but in the past 3 weeks, it has not been possible. Tyd2, I believe I did answer your IM's and in one, tried to explain that Australia falls into the UK Digital River facility which meant US payment was not possible. I apologize if I didn't make that completely clear. With the customer service from Digital River offering an email with type-o... I did have to cringe when I saw that, but - I'm pretty bad at type-o's myself when trying to get many notes out to as many people as possible. Sometimes your mind just thinks ahead of your fingers I suppose. With kind regards, Katherine

" Pricing has been set with best possible rate so as to cover back end charges" So true... "Curious Labs is not a direct-sales company only." but it is a direct-sales company, that's what we are talking about. "Retail customers need pricing consistency" but you don't have that! "many other manufacturers" Who??? "We have tried our best to keep pricing fair worldwide" Your worldwide customers are pointing out that you have failed and the pricing is not fair. With all due respect and in no-way disparaging Katherine's good work but This answer says nothing and changes even less.

A lot of people with very high IQ's do not spell english perfectly. It has a lot of exceptions in the language. If it is a second language I tip my hat to them for trying. My son speeks 3 languages I think he is wonderful, and I am glad he was not critized for his mistakes at least he tries to use his skills to help others. It may not be perfect but the people he helps are greatful he spent the time learning.

Amen to that. English is a downright nutty language -- why, even the Americans can't get it right! (Which puts me in mind of Yogi Berra's responce when asked if he knew the King's English; "Sure I do," he said after a moment, "and so's the Queen!") Loose and lose might be a typo. Threw and through can not be. That's a mistake of a different order...through and through.

LOL: I just had this image pop into my head of several Aussie & Kiwi Poser users sitting around sometime after the 21st looking at these pristine boxes, wrapped in plastic and working out a way to open them without destroying the wrapping, coz the blinking box cost $AUD 88...... :) And I will be checking the return address when my copy arrives - hope it's a UK address, otherwise DR will hear the scream from here!...and maybe I'll even start "threwing" things around!

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

Unfortunately, as usual, none of the questions have been adressed. The prices I quoted are for the products. Shipping charges are to be added ON TOP of that. Non-Americans pay $73 MORE AND shipping charges AND Vat/Import Tax. And noone can tell me it costs $73 MORE to download Poser6 from a server that is located in the UK than to download it from a server that is located in the USA. Or that it costs $73 MORE to keep a box of Poser6 in stock in the UK as compared to the USA. PUHLEEEZE. Lets face it, looks like CL and/or DR feel that owning American Software is a priviledge for non-US citizens, and so we should just pay up and roll over. Anyway, I guess Ill stick with ProPack for a while until the US Dollar is THAT low, that $50 more or less really dont matter anymore. LOL! stahlratte

"Or that it costs $73 MORE to keep a box of Poser6 in stock in the UK as compared to the USA." I'm have no idea how the distribution agreement works between CL and DR but I bet that any finacial exchange between the two of them would be in $US - it's only us poor old end users that have to cop the Euro.....

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

At the risk of being terribly annoying: It appears to me that she did indeed answer the questions as posed. What she did not address was the fairness of the issue -- something that she not only cannot address effectively without a common ground of understanding (lacking wholly among the people asking as evidenced by the fact they asked -- if they had the knowledge of why the inequity, they wouldn't be asking the question). Do not whine to Curious Labs. They do not apparently have the resources to operate their own store to their satisfaction. Therefore, they have chosen a third party to provide these services. In simplest terms, you are not buying from CL, you are buying from Digitial River, who basically have a link in the curious labs site. You don't have to like it. But complaining about it to them at this point isn't going to do you any good now, becuase the system is in place already, contracts signed, etc. You could always wait the couple of months it will take for the product to hit store shelves and purchase it there. Odds are you'll get a better price anyway. Complaining may do some good, mind you -- they may choose, at the expiry of the current contracts, to use a different company or set up an internal fulfilment system. If anything, the best method to resolving these issues is to hound the hell out of Digital River. And I do mean the holy hell out of them. They agreed to handle these transactions, and they have been falling down terribly in the process. As for the fairness of issue, it is a certainty that the higher prices are, in some way, related directly to the nature of the fulfillment contract. Curious Labs Has changed the pricing, in an attmept to be more fair. The orginal pricing for it was going to be, as she noted above, in line with most other small companies. That would be a 1 to 1 rate. Which would suck even more for international buyers. Blaming Free Trade agreements is asinine, incidentally, for the pricing issue here -- rather than accept the "conventional" meaning of them, perhaps learning what they specifically deal with would be in one's interest. Beyond that, to deal with the inequities, act to improve the exchange rate of the currency you have to deal in. Long term, doing something to assist that (which, sadly, will help all those evil companies you despise so much) will provide you with the equity you seek.

'those who were early adopters of Poser 5 who should have received the early adopters upgrade special' I didn't get this, katherine. I'll try to mail you directly at CL with the details and hope it can still be done. Thanks mac

If your buying thru the Curious Labs website - choose pounds sterling as your currency and then you will see that when converted to AUD you will pay about $40 less then EUR coverting to AUD... i've done the math and unless i'm completely still in twlight zone..... its cheaper for us Aussies... I used XE.com to do my curency conversion.

jdbwms has stated almost everything I wanted to say after reading Katherine's e-mail. That was very well expressed.

I once attempted to go past CL and directly to Digital River on an order. They are armored-up against anyone contacting them in an effective way. I know this kind of company; I've encountered them in many industries. The smell, if any, comes from them. Katherine was not explicit about the conditions DL imposed with the fulfillment contract, but you can bet they are not pretty.

And to respond to particular, E-On software is another company under attack for the practice of holding 1:1 on the Dollar/Euro.

Also, Katherine said "we are not a direct-sales company ONLY," and unless you miss the point completely, fairness would allow that point to register. They set a fixed price for the world, one that resellers and huge wholesalers can count on to drive a reliable retail price point.

As for the need to cover backend charges, to which the response was "so true," do you think that immoral?

Thank you, Katherine, for your explanation. May I chide with an error in usage? Its incurred, not concurred.

::::: Opera :::::

As nomuse has pointed out, the use of "loose" when one intends "loose" or "threw" when one intends "through" is not a typographical error; it is an error in word usage. It is a misuse of the language.

The problem is NOT the English language per se. The blame falls on the abandonment of intensive, systematic phonics-first and standard grammar in favor of whole language in the US, Europe, and other English-as-a-first-language nations.

If you worship a philosophy of education that holds it to be unhealthy to the self-esteem of small children to correct them, that inaccurate spelling or usage is not a negative and that in fact there ought be no such thing as 'wrong' spelling or usage in the first place, you get a population that spells inaccurately, uses words improperly, expresses hurt feelings when people point out these errors and loudly claims there is nothing wrong with their spelling or usage in the first place. They then label the person pointing out the errors as cruel, judgmental, rigid and fascistic.

::::: Opera :::::

"Tyd2, I believe I did answer your IM's and in one, tried to explain that Australia falls into the UK Digital River facility which meant US payment was not possible. I apologize if I didn't make that completely clear."

With all due respect Katherine, you DID NOT reply to my IM (yes, that's IM singular). I have received 2 IMs total since being registered on this forum. One says "Curious_Labs has received your message.", the other is someone asking me about a Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.

"The way Digital River sets territories has to do with where they ship from."

This makes no sense with downloadable content. What stops anyone, anywhere in the world, downloading from the same server, meaning server costs etc would be the same? Maybe Digital River should take into account their own range of services and not be back in the 20th century when all products needed to be shipped physically.

Regardless, there are plenty of other software companies that can sell downloadable software to me for the same price as US buyers. I was at goCyberLink.com yersterday and they actually gave me the option to pay in US$ or AU$...at the correct exchange rate! If CL/Digital River can't do this it can only be due to bad business practices.

Never before have I tried so hard to GIVE A BUSINESS MY MONEY! But I don't want to be robbed, and forcing me to hand over more than a US customer when there is no justifiable reason IS robbery.

If this is the way honest customers are treated, it's no wonder so many people just resort to warez.

Eh, sorry..just hadda toss that in there.

"If your buying thru the Curious Labs website - choose pounds sterling as your currency and then you will see that when converted to AUD you will pay about $40 less then EUR coverting to AUD.." 119 Euro = $AUD 201.50 82 GPB = $AUD 198.95 Not really worthwhile the effort today - although when I ordered last month there was a bit more of a difference but in favour of the Euro......

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

"If you worship a philosophy of education that holds it to be unhealthy to the self-esteem of small children to correct them, that inaccurate spelling or usage is not a negative and that in fact there ought be no such thing as 'wrong' spelling or usage in the first place, you get a population that spells inaccurately, uses words improperly, expresses hurt feelings when people point out these errors and loudly claims there is nothing wrong with their spelling or usage in the first place. They then label the person pointing out the errors as cruel, judgmental, rigid and fascistic." I nominate the preceding for "Paragraph of the Year" in the category of, "What's Wrong with Education in the US".

Speaking of warez, you might want to do something about this guy:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90723&item=7141654659&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

I've bought software from the US as well as Europe and the most I ever had to pay before for postage was $11. Also when buying software goods from the US I pay either with credit card or by PayPal and am allowed to pay in dollars.
CL is the only company that insists that because I live in the UK I must either pay in pound's or euro's, which is rediculous 'cos if I use either of the fore mentioned payment methods they then get paid in dollars and I get a charge for the conversion through my bank.
At the time I made my order for P6 the exchange rate was such that I was almost getting $0.65 - 1.00, but not at Curious Labs, oh no, there I must pay way over the actual price and it does make me feel like I've been a bit ripped off.
Here's hoping that all this fuss is worth it. 8)

Speaking of warez, you might want to do something about this guy:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=90723&item=7141654659&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Up until now, when I see Poser warez on ebay, I email ebay to get them to take it down. But with CL's current attitude, I think I'll stop doing them this favour.

"The issue of sending IM's was to resolve ... those who were early adopters of Poser 5 who should have received the early adopters upgrade special." You still don't have it right for me. I've IMed, I've emailed, I've tried to call what would you suggest I do now?

This has gotta (sic) be the 300th or so thread started on the issue of "overpricing" for international sales.

The topic, and the reasons for it, has been hashed out repeatedly.

Most likely, Curious Labs actually makes less money on a copy of P6 which is sold overseas than it does on a copy which is sold in the US. Even with the slightly higher overseas price.

The reasons for this situation are as Katherine explained them. Plus some other reasons that she didn't go into. Because doing so would simply get another lengthy debate cranked up.

Once a territory has been covered enough, then a rut starts to form.

In spite of the protests over "fairness" -- Curious Labs simply cannot afford to sell their product at a loss.

Which is what some are demanding that they do.

---

Try a forum search. Tons of other threads have already beaten this subject into the ground.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Tip of the cap XENOPHONZ. Simple, strong and direct. The (sic) is a nice touch! ::::: Opera :::::

"This has gotta (sic) be the 300th or so thread started on the issue of "overpricing" for international sales..."

Well, injustices don't get fixed when you lay down and take it.

"In spite of the protests over "fairness" -- Curious Labs simply cannot afford to sell their product at a loss. Which is what some are demanding that they do."

Who's demanding that? Downloading the program from their servers to my computer doesn't cost them more than for anyone else to do it. The reason this topic is going to keep coming up is because it is always dismissed with strawman arguments.

This has gotta (sic) be the 300th or so thread started on the issue of "overpricing" for international sales.<< False: It was the third. >>The topic, and the reasons for it, has been hashed out repeatedly.<< False: All what the posters received was the same old corporate spin. >>Most likely, Curious Labs actually makes less money on a copy of P6 which is sold overseas than it does on a copy which is sold in the US. Even with the slightly higher overseas price.<< False: 40% is not "slightly" higher. And corporations (Even US ones which, as we all know are the most kindest, honest and generous there are in the world (cough), "have" to make profit. So I seriously doubt CL sells outside the US just because they are so...um..."nice". >>The reasons for this situation are as Katherine explained them. Plus some other reasons that she didn't go into. Because doing so would simply get another lengthy debate cranked up.<< False: Giving an honest explanation would have made treads llke this uneccassary. >>Once a territory has been covered enough, then a rut starts to form.<< False: Like I said, the terrirory has "not" been covered at all. >>In spite of the protests over "fairness" -- Curious Labs simply cannot afford to sell their product at a loss. Which is what some are demanding that they do.<< False: Noone wants CL to loose money. What people want is an honest explanation. BTW, whats wrong with "Fairness" ? To be honest, discussions like these give me the impression that a few members here constantly confuse a buisiness relationship with fandom. Curious Labs is a corporation that sells software. Even though this software seems to have a big impact on many members lives, they are just that: A buisiness entity. And as long as they treat one part of their customers differently from the other part without giving a plausible explanation, they will have to face criticism. Just like any other corporation that does the same. In contrary to what some members may seem to think, this is not a commie conspiration to drive an honest hard working American buisiness out of the market. (LOL) This is Joe Public speaking.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2127777

*Well, injustices don't get fixed when you lay down and take it.*

There are no "injustices" here.

Should I.......? No, it's all been done before.

Go to this old thread. Read the whole thing, if you've got the time.

Personally, I've got better things to do.

After a time, people will either acknowledge reality -- or they won't.

The reason this topic is going to keep coming up is because it is always dismissed with strawman arguments.

No, the reason that it's going to keep coming up is due the fact that it's not going to change. It can't change.

Curious Labs isn't in business to lose money. And they aren't constituted as a public charity, either.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"There are no "injustices" here."

No? I'll start selling my software to Americans for twice the price as everyone else. You think any Americans might consider that unjust?

"Curious Labs isn't in business to lose money. And they aren't constituted as a public charity, either."

WTF are you talking about??? They'll make as much money from me as any American. Are Americans getting pubic charity?

False: All what the posters received was the same old corporate spin.

Read the through the thread referenced in my post above, if you like.

False: 40% is not "slightly" higher.

In European terms: oh, yes it most certainly is.

Try comparing the price of gasoline across the pond.

False: Like I said, the terrirory has "not" been covered at all.

RE: the above thread again. And if you don't like that one, then there are plenty of others.

False: Noone wants CL to loose money. What people want is an honest explanation. BTW, whats wrong with "Fairness" ?

Demanding that CL sell its product at a loss is demanding that they lose money. And that's an honest explanation.

What's wrong with "fairness" is that it has no bearing on reality.

It's not fair that someone else has a billion dollars, and that I don't. It's not fair that I wasn't born into this world looking like Mel Gibson. It's not fair that someone else can play football better than I can.

The concept of "fairness", as a principle of life -- is worthless.

Enforced "fairness" as an ideology has been tried already. It killed a lot of people along the way to creating a "worker's paradise".

All such attempts are doomed to end in abysmal failure.

Life just isn't fair.

And that's what's wrong with "fairness".

To be honest, discussions like these give me the impression that a few members here constantly confuse a buisiness relationship with fandom.
Curious Labs is a corporation that sells software.
Even though this software seems to have a big impact on many members lives, they are just that: A buisiness entity.

That's it. CL is a business entity.

In other words, they need to make money in order to stay in business.

And, hopefully, to grow.

In contrary to what some members may seem to think, this is not a commie conspiration to drive an honest hard working American buisiness out of the market. (LOL)

Hmmmmmm. The only place that I've seen any suggestions regarding a "Commie conspiracy" were made above.

Yes....they are an "honest, hard-working American business".

And they have to sell their product in such a way as to achieve a reasonable return on it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

No? I'll start selling my software to Americans for twice the price as everyone else. You think any Americans might consider that unjust?

Across the pond, pretty much everything costs more. Not just software.

It's all been cut through before. Read the thread which I referenced several posts ago.

WTF are you talking about??? They'll make as much money from me as any American.

Not at the higher tax rates overseas, they aren't.

---

It's 1:39 AM Eastern Standard Time on a Tuesday morning.

Y'all will have to thrash this one out without me, for now.

Enjoy.

;-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I thought the Coupon was for signing up to the CL Newsletter by December. I know some people that just bought P5 that got a coupon.

ratscloset
aka John

Tastiger wrote: I just had this image pop into my head of several Aussie & Kiwi Poser users sitting around sometime after the 21st looking at these pristine boxes, wrapped in plastic and working out a way to open them without destroying the wrapping, coz the blinking box cost $AUD 88...... Well join me in that club. Better be a very pretty box I think, cause it is expensive. What I am trying to get an answer from Digital Rivers is: I was finally on March 11th able to place my order successfully after a previous order would not complete. Katherine did IM back me after I sent her an IM listing the ordering problems I encountered (like what was posted here to put in the IM). That was dated Feb 22nd. She told me it had been passed onto Digital Rivers and they would email me within a week. Guess what - never heard from them. I just presumed the original order was cancelled by them cause I was able to order again. Now, my order shows I have to pay this outrageous sum of 51,59 EUROS for shipping by UPS Overnight. This is what the drop down box provided. I have since found out on a DAZ forum that it should be UPS International but surely this cannot be charged at the Overnight rate. It would be impossible to Austalia anyway. I querried this with Digital Rivers via their online contact email for order questions and got a canned useless response back but it did say I could reply to that which I have done and am waiting on a reply to that. I wonder if they will respond. Seems to be a lot of disgruntled Australians trying to order P6. They want us to 'put up and shut up' with the way this has been handled for us. Jan

""WTF are you talking about??? They'll make as much money from me as any American."

Not at the higher tax rates overseas, they aren't."

This thread started by pointing out that our FTA means THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL TAXES OR DUTIES added to the US prices.

Come on, admit it...you're a CL stooge. You're as good as they are at completely side-stepping the issue, creating strawmen, and waving a hand in the air as an explanation.

As I head off to bed, I wonder if this thread will still be unlocked in the morning. I guess I should get in one last shot. There is no such word as "noone." ::::: Opera :::::

The concept of "fairness", as a principle of life -- is worthless.<< Dear XENOPHOBS, most societys across the pond at least try to compensate for the inevitable unfairness of live: I.e. they feed the hungry, give to the poor and heal the sick. They usually also like a clean environment and therefor encourage their citizens to save precious energy. Thats the reason why energy costs are generally a bit higher in Europe. (Although there will be a drastic change to this situation as soon as OPEC countries start to trade crude in EURO instead of $) ANYWAY, this has exactly NOTHING to do with the fact that CL and/or DR overcharge their Non-US customers for downloadable goods. Claiming that "They will lose money" again and again is just spin if you cant back it up. I always thought "Because I say so" stopped being a valid argument as soon as one outgrows Kindergarten. LOL. @Pointlady: 51,59 EUROS for shipping to Australia is ridicoulus. I just checked Royal Mail, and a small package sent via airmail from UK to Australia is GBP15 for up tp 1.5kg. This is JoePublic speaking

Before this thread gets locked, let me sum it up.... Now I sell a small program in the Market Place at Renderosity. - What would happen if I decided to charge US customers $15 for that program - but let everyone else buy it for the normal price of $10? On that point I shall leave and paitiently await my $88 box....

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

It isn't a matter of "fairness", but a matter of "entitlement". Over the last few years I've watched as people here tear into each other and the various companies out of jealousy that someone else got a slightly better price... totally discounting such absolutely miniscule and negligible factors as time of sale and location of either buyer or seller or whether there was a middleman involved or tax/duty/customs rates and tariffs or ANYTHING else which might possibly in the REAL world have a bearing on the issue. If someone else saved a nickle or got offered a discount whether they used it or not, the screaming rises to a fevered pitch. Jealousy? :ptui!: If a company apologizes and offers a discount or an extension of a sale or any other mollifying factor, it just adds more fuel to the desire to get it for free, right now, and most certainly cheaper than anybody else can possibly get it. Guess what? Life is not fair. Deal with it. It isn't fair that some people get bombed into rubble or that kids get sold into slavery or that billionaires earn more money than they can spend (at one time J Paul Getty was earning $88,000/day every day in dividends and he was a piddle in a pond compared to Bill Gates). The only thing you have to determine when you are buying a model or an application or a computer is "what is it worth to me right now?" If you need it and it is worth the price, buy it. If you don't think it is worth the price, don't buy it. Complaining that someone who bought the program a month later saved $10, or the model went on sale or got included in a bundle or was given free on a magazine, or that the computer you bought 6 months ago is obsolete will not change anything... but merely show how mean-spirited you are. I'm using "mean" in its real usage of impoverished, miserly, niggardly and petty. Instead of shrieking that someone somewhere else in the world is only paying x in today's currency equivalents, look calmly at the price and ask yourself: Is it worth this much to me here and now? What is the value here? Will it save me more than this in time? Will it allow me to do similar things to another program costing 10 times as much? Will it allow me to do something that I couldn't do before? Will the results bring me pleasure or profit or both? Note that I thought of offering to help Katherine with the IMs. But I think you'd all rather wait while she works through them. (300/day? Yikes!) She is much more patient than I am... you ought to appreciate that! Another thing to consider: the time it took to complain could have been spent working on a piece of art or walking in the sunshine or helping a kid with a homework problem or protecting a park from development... something positive and useful. Carolly

"Guess what? Life is not fair. Deal with it."

Hmm, I could use that explanation to justify racism, sexism...

"...factors as time of sale and location of either buyer or seller or whether there was a middleman involved or tax/duty/customs rates..."

Holy cow... how many times do I have to make this point: There are NO tax/duty/customs rates inflating the price, due to our FTA. And there is no middleman when downloading from the company.

"If someone else saved a nickle...the screaming rises to a fevered pitch"

Another strawman. We're not talking about "a nickle", we're talking enough to buy a DVD player.

And I gather you'll be happy to pay the extra 50% for tastiger's program ;)

And we Australians would really appreciate it if others would stop lumping us in with Europe.

I too am an Aussie..I have one solution to the problem of what seems to be an unfair pricing structure. It's very simple..if you don't like the price..don't buy the product:) Write to the companies involved..explain to them why you WON'T be buying the product. Only if enough folk complain..VIA the only language companies understand..lost sales..will you change policies. The people complaining are already obviously Poser users, of one version or another, so stick with what you have. If you feel that you HAVE to have what is supposedly available in the new version, then you'll have to put up with the current price structure. You DO have the choice.. to purchase or not to purchase :)

I just noticed that Xena posted a reply to a thread that tyd2 started on the DAZ general forum Posted: 14 Mar 2005 21:48 Post subject: And you know the worst part, CL could have EASILY set up their own webstore using osCommerce or ZenCart and been able to offer multiple currencies, downloable (with secure addresses) products and set their own prices for shipping. _________________ Wonder why they didn't do this. They at least took preorders of P5 themselves and we were able to buy in US dollars. Joe Public wrote: @Pointlady: 51,59 EUROS for shipping to Australia is ridicoulus. I just checked Royal Mail, and a small package sent via airmail from UK to Australia is GBP15 for up tp 1.5kg. This is JoePublic speaking Joe this is what I am getting at with Digital Rivers. My initial order for P6 (the special price one for early adopters of P5, of which I was one) would not complete when I chose the Royal Mail option or any others to Australia. I believe there was some glitch in the system then, that was supposedly resolved - but not satisfactorily it seems - for now we have this outrageous shipping cost to Australia of 51,59 EUROS. My invoice from Digital Rivers shows this: 1 Poser 6 English Edition Upgrade from P5 - Preorder of 69,00 EUROS Shipping charge of 5l,59 EUROS. Egads, this is almost the price of the program. Hope this gets sorted out soon with Digital Rivers (or Curious Labs) to a reasonable shipping cost to Australia or else I might have to think about cancelling my order. I am resolved about having to pay in EUROS whatever CL's reason, though I think this stinks, but this shipping charge is outrageous. My experience with buying the pre-order of P5 from Curious Labs was we could pay in US dollars (although then with the very low exchange rate - it cost an arm and a leg) Shipping was around about US$11 I think for International Air Mail. The shipment landed at Sydney by Airborne Express, then went to Customs for our Goods and Service Tax (GST) charge to be assessed. Customs then rang you with the charge, which you had to pay before it was released for delivery. Some Australians who ordered P5 had problems because there was no Phone No on the delivery docket and their P5 was held in limbo by customs. Mine was luckily, but Curious Labs had my name and street correct, but not the state or location I lived in and it would have been returned to them as undeliverable if I had not made numerous phone calls to track my order whilst trying to find out what happened to it in Australia after Customs released it. Makes me wonder what will happen to my P6 order. Jan Ps there is an interesting thread on the LaRoo character included with P6 on the RDNA Poser forum too.

Extract" "False: All what the posters received was the same old corporate spin." Comment: interesting. Specifically point out how it is spin, please. Extract: "False: Giving an honest explanation would have made treads llke this uneccassary." Comment: Bullshit. The answer was direct and to the point. As I noted earlier, it would require the individuals involved to actually educate themselves on global trade issues for small software firms dealing through third party fulfilment systems. Not hard, but obviously beyond the abilties of those complaining. Extract: "False: Noone wants CL to loose money. What people want is an honest explanation. BTW, whats wrong with "Fairness" ? To be honest, discussions like these give me the impression that a few members here constantly confuse a buisiness relationship with fandom. Curious Labs is a corporation that sells software. Even though this software seems to have a big impact on many members lives, they are just that: A buisiness entity. And as long as they treat one part of their customers differently from the other part without giving a plausible explanation, they will have to face criticism. Just like any other corporation that does the same." Nothing is wrong with fairness. Fair would be to take the matter matter up with the company handling the fulfillment. Fair would be a single worldwide currency. Fair would be a world where things like human nature and difference are tolerated. Fair is a goal, but not a reality. You are correct that the fans of the software appear to be ridiculously foolish when it comes to dealing with the companies involved in it. Not just Curious Labs. DAZ and Renderosity as well seem to have some sort of active groups harboring age old grudges against them where the companies essentially will never be able to do anything without angering pollsters. However, Curious Labs does not treat one part of their cutomers differently. Digital River does that. There is a difference between Curious Labs and Digital River. They are two separate customers. Attend to the actual issue, not the one that's easy, and you might get somewhere in your goals. Extract: "Now, my order shows I have to pay this outrageous sum of 51,59 EUROS for shipping by UPS Overnight. This is what the drop down box provided. I have since found out on a DAZ forum that it should be UPS International but surely this cannot be charged at the Overnight rate. It would be impossible to Austalia anyway" Comment: This strikes me as the usual "get some profit from shipping while we're at it" scheme ar too many people use (it is especially prevalent on Ebay, based on the fees my wife has been charged). The fee you pay for shipping there -- and the specific options you have (international is a different service from overnight, and both exist) -- are determined by Digital River. If I were in this boat, I would feel an overwhelming need to cause harm to digital river's business. Extract: "This thread started by pointing out that our FTA means THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL TAXES OR DUTIES added to the US prices." Comment: And, as near as I can determine, there are none. Your particular interpretation of the fees being applied is wrong. A Tax or Duty is applied under Law. In other words, the governments state these things need to be charged. A difference in price based on currency rates is not the same thing. Grasp that concept. It will do you a world of good. Extract: "ANYWAY, this has exactly NOTHING to do with the fact that CL and/or DR overcharge their Non-US customers for downloadable goods. Claiming that "They will lose money" again and again is just spin if you cant back it up." Comment: 1 - CL is not overcharging. Digital River is. 2 - You need to look up the specific definition of spin as you applied it and rephrase that statement. Spin, in case you hadn't noticed, is just another way of stating the truth. The concept you are seeking is misdirection, or perhaps lying. Regardless of that, however, there is no "backing up" a statement like "they will lose money". Absurdist posturing. It is not the role of a customer to determine what constitutes an acceptable loss to a company, it is the role of those who run the company. Extract: "- What would happen if I decided to charge US customers $15 for that program - but let everyone else buy it for the normal price of $10?" Comment: Irrelevant. You can't do that here. Also, inaccurate. A more accurate comparison would be you submit a product to Renderosity and state your wholesale price and sign a fulfilment contract. You provide them with the price in your native currency, and they they do the rest -- including pricing the product according to whatever agreement you have established. They then proceed to charge more. BEing renderosity, they would get their rear's chewed for it, but ignore the complaints, you would get your money, and either have to deal with it until you could pull your product (by which time the damage in sales will have been done) or be quiet and smile and offer little tidbits like the above. In short, the same thing that is going on now. Extract: "Hmm, I could use that explanation to justify racism, sexism..." Comment: Yes. And agitating for greater fairness is always a good thing. Just agitate int he right way and to the right people. Screaming about the unfairness of black society to white people will do you no good in a town with no white people. Extract: "Wonder why they didn't do this. They at least took preorders of P5 themselves and we were able to buy in US dollars." Comment: Entirely second guessing them, but one would estimate that the reason is they did not have the wherewithal to do so in a manner that was satisfactory to them. Althought he basic mechanics of such sites are easy in principle to set up, the back end support -- customer service, fulfilment (server hostings for multiple downloads in the thousands at once as well as additional handling and backups), and similar -- is not easily nor inexpensively done. A simple set up to handle something where only a mere 1000 downloads a second could be concurrently run worldwide would require a small investment of around 40,000 to start, and goes up from there. That's not counting the training, hiring expenses, and location for the servers, nor the expenses for a business to install and maintain the appropriate mirrors abroad. So I would say it is because they don't have the ability to do so to a level that they felt comfortable with. I would also say that is a simplistic and unaware suggestion. General Comment: Beyond that, I will second the comments of this Hauksdottir person. If you don't like the price, then do not buy it, and do not go to a forum and complain about it when the purpose of that forum is stated to be for other purposes -- and then get upset when folks take you to task for it. If you post, someone will respond. And in kind. If you post to incite -- as I admittedly do -- then people will respond heatedly. If you post in kindness, you recieve those as well. Which is not to say do not complain about it -- but when you do, do it in a manner that gets something done, which posting to here does not do.

"...Your particular interpretation of the fees being applied is wrong. A Tax or Duty is applied under Law. In other words, the governments state these things need to be charged. A difference in price based on currency rates is not the same thing. Grasp that concept. It will do you a world of good."

Thanks for the condescension, but currency rates are not an issue to CL if I pay in $US.

"...it would require the individuals involved to actually educate themselves on global trade issues for small software firms dealing through third party fulfilment systems."

You point me to somewhere that my feeble little Australian mind can be "educated" with proof that it costs CL more for me to download a copy of Poser 6 than it does for an American, and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong. (And I don't mean passing the blame to Digital River. If I hire a crook to sell my wares, I'm still responsible.)

Condescension is not free -- mockery is. If I've been condescending, I'll have to charge. Small change. Currency rates are an issue -- my understanding of the problem is that you are not allowed to purchase in USD from outside the US -- something Digital River determines, not CL. I am not familiar enough with the institutions of higher learning in Australia, but I will happily direct you to one of them near you. Seek out classes in global econmoics and marketing, information technology infrastructure, and business history. That should begin your efforts nicely, and when you've finished them, turn to macroeconomic prinicples. It might also educate you on the potential trouble that could be garnered by calling Digital River a crook in a semi-public record goverend by laws of a location that takes such things seriously. Extract: "As I said, I had waited almost a month and you did not reply to my one and only IM, and your reply made me look like a liar. For that I think I deserve an apology." Comment: You didn't read carefully enough. She said "I believe", not "I am certain". Indicates she wasn't certain she had. The cost of a product's form is irrelevant -- the downloadable version costs the same as the shipping one. Get off the blaming CL and pick on Digital River, and direct your requests and comments to a more proper location (such as the customer service department of DR) and you will likely get a more desired response without being tossed from side to side by pundits.

I just read post #16, where there was a reply from the online store. Is that reply from CL or DigitalRiver? If someone is purchasing a downloaded program, with no box, what does it matter where it "ships" from? Or what currency you use to purchase it? I think this is more a problem with DigitalRiver, rather than CL. Of course, CL should be monitoring DigitalRiver, and this does point out a problem that should be dealt with. Side Note: CL is a US subsidiary of E-On, a Japanese company. It used to be a subsidiary of a German company that sold CL when they filed bankruptcy after P5. CL hasn't been a US firm for a number of years.

It might also educate you on the potential trouble that could be garnered by calling Digital River a crook in a semi-public record goverend by laws of a location that takes such things seriously.

Now you read carefully. I posed a hypothetical about myself: "If I hire a crook to sell my wares, I'm still responsible." Any other inference is yours. Hmm, but you have publically accused me of calling them crooks... ;)

"..it would require the individuals involved to actually educate themselves on global trade issues... Not hard, but obviously beyond the abilties of those complaining."
"Seek out classes in global econmoics and marketing, information technology infrastructure, and business history.... when you've finished them, turn to macroeconomic prinicples."

That's what you call "not hard", just to buy a piece of software? Somehow I think if the inflated price was justified, it would be easier to prove than that.

"...direct your requests and comments to a more proper location (such as the customer service department of DR)"

I am doing that, but I'm getting more response here :)

Forgot to address this bit:

She said "I believe", not "I am certain". Indicates she wasn't certain she had.

So if I say "I believe God exists" it means I'm not certain God exists?

Come on, admit it...you're a CL stooge. You're as good as they are at completely side-stepping the issue, creating strawmen, and waving a hand in the air as an explanation. Oh, no.....you've found me out. ;-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I always thought "Because I say so" stopped being a valid argument as soon as one outgrows Kindergarten. LOL.

That's true, "JoePublic".

I wonder when you forgot it?

*Dear XENOPHOBS, most societys across the pond at least try to compensate for the inevitable unfairness of live:

I.e. they feed the hungry, give to the poor and heal the sick.

They usually also like a clean environment and therefor encourage their citizens to save precious energy.

Thats the reason why energy costs are generally a bit higher in Europe.*

If a people choose to live under socialism, then they had best be prepared to pay the high costs of such a system.

shrug

On into the future, we'll continue to pay less than you do. And not just for software.

That is -- until such a time as we go totally socialist, ourselves (hopefully never). At that point, then we'll have the privilege of over-paying for everything, too. Plus high unemployment rates, etc, etc, etc.........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

*Come on, admit it...you're a CL stooge. You're as good as they are at completely side-stepping the issue, creating strawmen, and waving a hand in the air as an explanation.

Oh, no.....you've found me out.

;-)*

It's heartening to see that you are every bit as accurate in this as you are in other matters.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

How is complaining about the price going to change it? Are you going to haggle them down to a price more suitable to you? I don't mean to sound unsympathetic, but really, if you don't think the price is worth it.... don't buy the product. It's your money, you decide... Capitalism at its best!

This thread started by pointing out that our FTA means THERE ARE NO ADDITIONAL TAXES OR DUTIES added to the US prices.

Elementary economics are difficult to follow, I know.

Even within the borders of the US itself, some people are paying $1.79/gallon for gasoline, while people in other parts of the country are paying over $2.35/gallon for the same product.

It's interesting to note that the higher prices tend to be found in those states with the greatest tendencies towards socialistic thinking (higher taxes, etc.). These areas also tend to be places with higher unemployment rates than the rest of the nation -- along with other sluggish economic trends in general. Such as businesses fleeing the state, and then relocating to other states with lower taxes, etc..

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

For those that didn't notice. The international shipping office is in the UK therefore subject to UK laws and pricing. Not every company can afford to have their own shipping house in the US, national or international. They probably choose DR because it does both.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

"My experience with buying the pre-order of P5 from Curious Labs was we could pay in US dollars (although then with the very low exchange rate - it cost an arm and a leg) Shipping was around about US$11 I think for International Air Mail. The shipment landed at Sydney by Airborne Express, then went to Customs for our Goods and Service Tax (GST) charge to be assessed. Customs then rang you with the charge, which you had to pay before it was released for delivery."

Pointlady - can you remember how much GST you were charged or how they worked it out, was it based on the current exchange rate with the currency it was purchased in? May help us Aussies out to know how much more moola we may have to part with when our expensive boxes reach our shores.

"Some Australians who ordered P5 had problems because there was no Phone No on the delivery docket and their P5 was held in limbo by customs."

I can't remember if DR asked for a phone number, from memory they got an address but not a state, at least they got the postcode. So let's hope it all goes well this time around - but I really can't see any Aussies opening their copy of P6 in time for Easter.....

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

Hi, I have 3 people from this thread that have mentioned not receiving an IM back from me are MacLean, tyd2 and BAM which I show in my log that I did IM back so I'm wondering if there was a problem in delivery? I'll go back this afternoon and try again. Are there anymore that haven't received an answer back from an IM regarding registration number issues or not having received the coupon offer that they qualified for? With kind regards, Katherine

"A more accurate comparison would be you submit a product to Renderosity and state your wholesale price and sign a fulfilment contract. You provide them with the price in your native currency, and they they do the rest -- including pricing the product according to whatever agreement you have established."

Exactly the point I was making - CL's sales will be affected by this - Australia is a not a country of 6 people, we are a Country with a population of about 20 million, 6 States and 3 time zones!, something that a lot of overseas people don't realize, and those that have spoken up here are not the only people who use Poser in this Country.

I have never said this was an issue with CL but an issue with their chosen distribution agent.

CL's continued use of DR to distribute their product to the southern hemisphere must at some stage affect the sales of their product here

Just bear in mind that those who have spoken up here are 5 or 6 people who pre-ordered, many are waiting for the release before purchasing an "unknown" product.

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

I Think we may be lucky and sneak just under the amount required for GST to be imposed - can someone confirm my calculations?

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4376#e987

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

keyze - So your son 'speeks' 3 languages does he? Does he 'right' them too? ;o) bshafer - the big one missing from that cool pic is the classic 'your/you're'. :] Fishnoise

Tastiger, I just got of the Phone to Australian Customs to ask about what happens here when the shippment arrives in Australia. GST will apply - that is our tax. It will be assessed on the product cost in Australian Dollars when they receive it at the current day's rate of exchange. The lady also said that we in Australia are only subject to our GST tax, not VAT for that does not appy to us. However Digital Rivers might factor some other costs into the charge, but essentially - we are only subject to GST. She also said that the electronic handling fee is based on products over AUD$250 so maybe this is what you are referring to. Telephone Customs yourself and ask, cause I may have misunderstood this part. I do still have my documents for when I purchased P5, I got the full version. This landed in Sydney on 13th Sept 2002 via Airborne Express (Internation Express) and from what I can ascertain the shipping was $US28.52. GST came to $AUD 99.43 which was based on the price of $US329.09 and converted into Aust dollars based on the rate at the time = $AUD 599.05 from which the GST was assessed. Mind you, the exchange rate back then was very low ($US1 = $AUD .50, (can't remember exactly). I ended up being charged on my credit card $AUS 771.60 for the program but this does not include the GST of $99.43 which had to paid upfront to Customs before it was released for delivery. Regarding the Phone No being shown on the delivery docket - well mine was, Customs telephoned me with the GST charge to pay. At the time on the forum - there were a couple of others whose program was in this shipment, whose phone Nos were not on the docket for whatever reason, and until it was pointed out - their program was being held in limbo by customs and until they contact them, they were wondering where it was. If there is not a phone No to contact re GST, I do not know if they mail you an invoice, because mine was thankfully for the Shipping Dept of Curious Labs (at the time) had my name correct, my street & No correct, but not the suburb or State I lived in. I live in NSW and it was address to me, my street, but in Bendigo, Victoria and if I had not of made numerous STD telephone calls to track it, it would have been sent back to Curious Labs as undeliverable. It did in fact take a trip to Bendigo, Vic first mind you but with my phone calls, I finally tracked down who the Courier Co was who was supposed to deliver it, and a very kind lady there found it for me. Anyway, you asked for this information - so I hope it helps you understand. I do suggest you ring Australian Customs yourself for any clarification. Jan

Extract: "So if I say "I believe God exists" it means I'm not certain God exists?" Comment: Yes. Extract: "That's what you call "not hard", just to buy a piece of software? Somehow I think if the inflated price was justified, it would be easier to prove than that." Comment: No, it is not hard to educate oneself. The effort would provide you with benefits above and beyond the simple purchase of software online. The price is not inflated. It is set according to an exchange rate predetermined by Digital River. They, in turn, do not use a standard, but apparently their own system for doing so that likely takes into acocunt their costs for handling additional currencies. So, thus far, we have dealt with several potential reasons for the additional cost, all of which are representative, and none of them have anything to do whatsoever with the trade agreement. 1 - Currency exchange rates 2 - infrastructure costs 3 - 3rd Party fees 4 - currency handling costs 5 - UK customs rules (since world wide fulfillment is handled from somewhere other than the us, it is not governed by us structures) Additional ones as well. So there are most certainly valid reasons for the additional cost -- all of which have nothing directly to do with CL. Earilier in the thread you speak of never lying down in the face of unfairness. I'll respond to that with pick your battles carefully. Af for saying that you called them a thief -- yes. And I can do so -- it is neither disparaging or reputation destroying. Were I to call you a thief, the situation would be different. I wouldn't, either, without evidence, which I strongly suspect I would never encounter as 1- I'm not looking, and 2 - You aren't likely to steal to the best of my knowledge.

"I live in NSW and it was address to me, my street, but in Bendigo" Thats Ok maybe I'll get your copy then - I'm in Bendigo. However to the point - Just waded through the Customs website and spoke to them and the news is we shouldn't have to pay Excise or GST as the total amount payable would be under $50. Although, UPS may try to collect this amount from us - if they do Customs has suggested we clear it ourselves. If this confuses anyone - that makes two of us, but I'd be happy to discuss it in another thread or off list.. May as save some money if we can...

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

*Extract:
"So if I say "I believe God exists" it means I'm not certain God exists?"

Comment:

Yes.*

No.

In this case my belief would be my "mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something", not my uncertainty about something.

I make the assumption that when people tell me they "believe" something, they "have confidence in the truth or value" of the claim. You obviously choose to interpret them as being less certain, "to have an opinion; think". Yes, there is ambiguity. (quotes from dictionary.com)

Comment:
No, it is not hard to educate oneself. The effort would provide you with benefits above and beyond the simple purchase of software online.

Actually I have studied most of the subjects you mentioned, as part of my Degree and my Advanced Certificate in Business Programming. Must've missed the one subject that explains this particular price discrimination... But anyone who says surviving the boredom of economic theory is "not hard" is a better man than me ;)

So, thus far, we have dealt with several potential reasons for the additional cost, all of which are representative, and none of them have anything to do whatsoever with the trade agreement.

...and none of which explain why I should pay more to download Poser 6.

1 - Currency exchange rates
I am asking, nay, begging to pay in $US. Let me and my bank worry about these costs.

2 - infrastructure costs
Same for me to download as anyone else.

3 - 3rd Party fees
Isn't it the same 3rd party we're all dealing with? If the discrimination comes only from them then it's costing them sales and it's a bad business choice.

4 - currency handling costs
See 1.

5 - UK customs rules...
Speaking of education, Australia is not part of the UK ;)

I'm hearing lots of theories and waffle, but I'm still waiting for the smoking gun. Just itemize the price of the software itself (the same for everyone), plus the other costs that bring it up to the price Australians are being charged for the download. Not economic theory, not hypotheses, not "potential reasons", not vague, unidentified "other ones as well", but the actual, factual costs involved in the specific purchase I'm talking about.

Just show me what they are and I'll be happy to pay them.

Earilier in the thread you speak of never lying down in the face of unfairness.
I'll respond to that with pick your battles carefully.

Hey, all I'm doing is typing words to try and make a point, it's not that much effort. Trust me, I have enough in reserve in case I need to fight any real "battles". And it's kind of fun to spar...except with XENOPHONZ, who's just a compassionless NeoCon who can't keep to the point ;)

"Af [sic] for saying that you called them a thief -- yes. And I can do so"
I was just taking the piss. Actually, you didn't:

"It might also educate you on the potential trouble that could be garnered by calling Digital River a crook in a semi-public record..."

Doesn't accuse me of anything directly at all :)

Extact: "But anyone who says surviving the boredom of economic theory is "not hard" is a better man than me ;)" Comment: In my experience, it was bring a good cd and tape the lecture, then apply the prinicples on a smaller scale that night in the local bar. Made it quite easy ;) Although recovering enough from really good study periods for a test was sometimes problematic. Extract: "...and none of which explain why I should pay more to download Poser 6." (plus additional) Comment: they do. 1 - DR determines (for some unfathomable reason that begs for derision) what currency format you can use. They choose to not allow purchase in USD for folks ourside the US. On the surface, this just screams idiocy in action -- but, in truth, judgement should be deferred until investigation reveals the reason they choose to do it that way. I certainly would not, and someone wiser in business than I recently asked proceeded to laugh in wonder when it was described. Nevertheless, this directly affects your rate -- in short, you cannot pay for it in USD. 2 - The actual bandwidth spent to download for you may be the same as for everyone else, but that does not mean that the costs for equipment to allow that download are the same. SInce fulfilment is done out of the UK for the worldwide market, the costs for equipment may be (and likely are) higher than they are for equipment in the us. Large download systems such as this are not the same as one's household server set up or even the same as the system employed by Renerosity -- they are typically much larger in scale and costs and capability. In short, Enterprise class servers and systems -- Something DR is rather proud to note they have so they can meet the obligations they contract for. THis directly affects the cost of your download as a whole -- and usually to a higher cost than similar fulfilment from a US server. 3 - Indeed, you hit it on the head with this one. It is bad business. 4 - deja vu -- see 1 ;) 5 - I am aware that Australia is not part of the UK. You seem to have misunderstood the comment. DR's set up is such that all non-US purchases are handled from the UK. SInce DR is the seller, and they re handling it through the UK, they must operate according to UK rules, not US. One possible extension of this factor could result in an issue in handling the currency conversion rates among all denominations other than USD -- if so, then that's further evidence of unwise activity. As for factual/actual -- you won't get it here. Here is only educated guesses. It is almost certain that Katherine has no idea herself -- it is outside her role within the company. Indeed, it is quite possible that CL cannot itemize the cost themselves since they are not handling that end of things. DR, on the other hand, likely could -- but most certainly will not do so in the forum, and most likely wouldn't do so in a public manner or a manner that would allow it to become public as well. An itemized cost would include revelation of potentially sensitive business data that no company with decent lawyers would share. In short, it costs more to buy it outside the US, and, other than asking CL to review (and hopefully change) the contract with DR when it is due for such, there is little that can be done about it but decide wether the value of the program to you is equal to the price that you will have to pay for it. (On the other hand, your question in a different (though related) thread likely should not have been asked -- you simply should have gone for it.Probably still should. Strikes me as the best solution to the problem -- use the inherent weaknesses of DR's system against them. I most certainly would do so in such a case, myself -- but I'm a cheap bastard.)

Well, jcbwms, I think we've run out of things to argue about :) It's been a pleasure.

(I'll just add that I said "none of which explain why I should pay more to download Poser 6", not "why I do have to...";) )

But the irony of all this is that, so far, Digital River are the only ones agreeing that I should be able to pay in $US!

When I first told them I was an Australian wanting to pay in $US but couldn't, they said "The error you are reporting indicates a missing or corrupt online store cookie." No doubt a standard reply to cover a lot of problems, but when I followed up that allowing cookies didn't solve the problem, they sent me the direct link to the US store and said to use that!

Unfortunately, when I try to purchase it says "The products you have selected are not available in your area." (This may also be a problem if someone buys it on my behalf. I may be locked out of downloading it if I'm not from the right area.)

Wouldn't it be funny if my whining pointed out a circumstance DR had overlooked...and actually changed something!

I just want to point out one error of the thinking of those that are complaining about the price for a Download Version. CL contracted with Digital River to distribute Poser 6. The pricing of Poser 6 is the same, whether you download or buy box. The only savings offered for those Downloading is Shipping. All pricing is based on the Box Version. This means that CL is offering the Download Version as a convienance, not as a price point. Most companies do this that also sell Boxed Software. JASC, Corel, Norton, etc... Sometimes you can find the Box version cheaper (Norton is a good example of that) Some companies also offer a different Price Point for Download software. Most often these versions do not include a manual. I have seen boards where customers sit around and whine because they need to buy the box to get the manual, and want to know why they just can not download the manual. The comment about Stable Pricing is also common. I buy magazines that should be cheaper at times or at others more expensive depending on the exchange rate, but the publisher sets a price and stays with it until they determine they need to change it. One last comment: All of you that are complaining. If you were getting a better deal due to changes in the exchange rate, would you be whining this much about trying to pay more, since it was not fair pricing? If not, you need to either clam up and buy the software or not buy. Now if you truly would argue that you should pay more and would put this energy in trying to pay more, then go right ahead and keep this thread going!

ratscloset
aka John

"One last comment: All of you that are complaining. If you were getting a better deal due to changes in the exchange rate, would you be whining this much about trying to pay more, since it was not fair pricing?" My final word on the subject - as we HAVE to pay in Euros anyway... As was pointed out to me yesterday on a Daz Forum. Yes we may be a bunch of "Whinging Aussies" but wasn't there a point in history when a group of people somewhere who were unhappy about fair trade and reasonable pricing dumped a load of goods in a harbour? But maybe that's just folk lore....

The supreme irony of life is that hardly anyone gets out of it alive.
Robert A. Heinlein

11th Gen Intel(R) Core(TM) i9-11900K @ 3.50GHz   3.50 GHz
64.0 GB (63.9 GB usable)
Geforce RTX 3060 12 GB
Windows 11 Pro

Yes there have been problems with it. I have had a notice of IM's but when I click the link they vanished. None there. I've had IM's that I've sent vanish.
If your IM is longer than the specified characters (ask, I can't remember) it will appear to send but will in fact vanish with no notice.

It needs serious work.

...... Kendra

'I have 3 people from this thread that have mentioned not receiving an IM back from me are MacLean, tyd2 and BAM which I show in my log that I did IM back so I'm wondering if there was a problem in delivery? I'll go back this afternoon and try again' Katherine, I got the new IM you sent. I just want to say a big 'Thanks' to you and Tori for sorting thing out. Got my promo code and pre-ordered. mac

Me too. Thanks