Man, it's disappointing when you buy something, and it's not what you thought it was.

Take, for instance, the last two products I bought: 'Eden' by Rhiannon and 'Jose' by Shahara. They look SO GOOD in the promo shots (on the left), yet this is how they render up on my machine (on the right). I know it's a lighting problem, but the vendors both supplied no light sets. I've tried my best to make them look like the promo shots, to no avail. When I increase the lights for Jose, his detail starts washing out (no more furry butt!) and for Eden, no matter what I do, her stomach and shoulders stay green. I've emailed and instant messaged the vendors, and have gotten no response. I've even purchased the Radiance Pro light system that Rhiannon said in her ad that she used, and none of the lights in that set make Eden look that way.

I hate wasting money. I love the promo shots, and if they would only supply items that rendered up JUST LIKE THE PROMO SHOTS, I would be happy! I think that if you can't recreate the promo shot, Renderosity should not allow the vendor to sell it. Does anyone have any idea what I can do... besides ask Renderosity for a refund? I've got a few 'this is what you want, this is what you get' disappointments I've purchased from them recently. :-(

My peeve is when people sell stuff here for Poser but use Max to render the promo shots... even if they do identify the images as such it is important I think include a Poser render on "page 2". I have been very disapointed particularly with scenes that no matter what can't come remotely close to the promo render quality and I don't think this is my ineptness since other things I buy look as good or better than the promo once I get them. I have notice a distinct corralation in products of high cost and then low quality once it gets to Runtime :( Anyway, I make sure not to render my stuff up to nicely for promo so that newbies can get results just like the promo. I have just bitten the ill aforded loss to date except one thing that was sold in the Renderosity shop and turned out not to be compatible with any version of Poser although this was indicated in none of the accompaning text. I did get a refund but I felt guity asking for it all the same. I once got an email from a total newbie about one of my things but he seemed quite satisfied with the assistance I provided in a couple of emails. Your vendor might have changed e-mails... have you checked when they last signed on to the site? Was your email marked as recieved... some people can be away on vacation or work for a couple of weeks as well.

Yeah, I was notified that they received the messages yesterday. Maybe my problem is expecting a response that quickly.

In the promo shots, from the back, the lady and the guy had similar coloring, and they were both very cute, which is why I bought them! But if I can't render them that way in Poser, I can't use them.. I've got better sitting on my hard drive, ya know?

Can you post a screen shot of your lighting?

Awwwww come on, cut the vendors some slack. Of course they are going to produce a promo image that says 'this is what you CAN do with my product' The rest is up to you and your skill (in this case) with lighting. Jack

I agree. While it's nice to be able to purchase so many cool things that are ready right out of the box, it's also a good idea to use them as examples. You can learn a LOT about lighting by tearing light sets apart and looking at the settings they used. Or moving a light to see what it does, or changing the start and end angles or the brightness. Or even changing the colors. It's a very hard thing to anticipate what people would like. And because the assumption is that the majority of users really don't want to reproduce a render exactly, that you show what can be done with the texture itself. Lighting is a major factor in the end result of a render ... however, if you change a pose, or change a camera angle, the lighting will have to be changed anyway. So if we take a look at the lighting you have set up, we might be able to offer suggestions. And the first suggestion would be to use lights that are all white or a shade of gray. That rules out color influence from the light set.

I make a lot of purchases - about a third of them are 'duds' (from all the stores). I've learned to sit back and wait a while before I jump. I've only had one chargeback in 7 years, and to be honest, I grew to love that vendors products. I'd be bounced out of here if I asked for a refund on all the losers i've bought. I also use the harshest light set up (3 lights, black, grey, and white) and if the product can pass that test it's a winner.

Well, I understand where you're coming from, but you gotta understand where I am coming from. I'm not an artist... that's why I buy other people's stuff! :-D I still have a need for Poser renders, as I use them in the online role playing game I'm making.

As a non-artistic customer, cut ME some slack! I'm not going to run out and re-sell your fancy light set on the marketplace, sheesh. :-D Give me exactly what I see in the store, and I'm as happy as a clam. I have to mess with artistic stuff quite a bit, even though I'm a programmer... but getting to the promo shot is beyond my skill. Tell you what - don't ask ME to set up realistic lighting, and I won't ask YOU to program A* pathfinding in my sprite engine... deal?

LOL I was trying to help, not to give you a hard time. It's so hard sometimes to respond to posts because folks can't hear the tone of your voice. I guess what I'm saying is, for you to be able to reproduce exactly what you see in the promo pics, you'd need the same light set, the same pose, and the same camera angle. If any of those factors is different in your render, you would also have to change the lighting. That's why it would make more sense for you to experiment with some other light sets, or to learn more about lighting. There are LOTS of great free light sets at RuntimeDNA. They are indispensable, and you will more than likely come across some that will be complimentary to your textures. Start with the studio lights, those are really nice.

Maybe learning how to use lights for a change? just a suggestion :o)

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Also...when reading the advertisement...look to see if it's using one the now popular skin shader packages..that makes a huge difference as well. I just came across - at 1st sight a very nice skin texture, however it said the face was rendered in Cinema...so I have chosen to pass. I don't do nudes, so the body, I could almost careless about. The face is everything to me.

It's true - lighting is the most overlooked feature in Poser. It's also the hardest to learn really well. Deecey is quite correct - go to rdna and get the free light packages. Take your Jose model and render him in each lighting pack. I know it will chew up an afternoon, but it's worth it to see all the new possibilities.

My apologies, I meant to say portrait lights. Studio lights are also nice, but the portrait lights might be better for what you are trying to do.

Don't forget your render settings. Poser 5's default draft settings are optimized for speed and not detail. To get more details out of your render verify that you have a shading rate of max 0.5 and set the max texture size to 4096.

Thanks for the light tips and links guys! MAN I had no idea Traveller put out so many lights at RDNA! I'm downloading them now. I saw that P5 had a draft mode, and I wasn't using it when attempting to emulate the promo pic. I'll look at the shading rate and max texture size, and try out the portrait lights too. Thanks again!

Under US FTC LAW one must have an actual sample of the product being sold in any print or other media advertisement. what this means is , the nice perfect stack of round identical pancakes on the box of instant pancake mix, MUST be actual pancakes made with this instant powdered mix. but it does not prohibit advertisers hiring expert food artists to cook hundred of pancakes to acheive those perfect round stacks on the packaging and pro photographers to shoot them for the ads. as a merchant here it is my duty to show my product in its theoretical maximum effectiveness. We assume we are selling/marketing to mature adults who presumably are able to make responsible purchase decision being aware of the nature of "best light" 'advertising to even imply that shahara is engaging in false advertising is frankly absurd and to suggest that she should give way free add on light sets to compensate for people who .for whatever reason, refuse to learn how to use posers tools, is equally absurd ;-/. I will sell you instant pancake mix but I wont cook your breakfast for you...sorry

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but still leaves people using 3ds or bryce or other render engines to get the looks, then selling the product for use in poser, where you wouldnt get the same thing you bought, the advertising should say for V3 in bryce or poser or whatever the render was made in essence, you are changing the "recipe" of the product, then selling and advertising it every render engine is different, and gets effects that cant be done in any of the others pictures i make even use a couple different render engines for one pic, just to get the effects

Oh boy, I just love people who criticize customers. Maybe the merchant can tell the customers what lights were used to get these results? Personally, I wonder about textures that give the bodies highlights before the lights are even applied.

This has a simple solution for all partys. On the product samples state what lighting is used. Plus I think it's good manners to credit other merchants stuff as well. I do this for 90% my products - occasaionlly I forget but hey i'm only human.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Oh boy, I just love people who criticize customers" --------------------------------------------------------------------------- It' s not a matter of criticizing the customer. when I hear: "i am not an artist cut me some slack" that implies Do all of the work for me so i dont have to do anything at all to get my desired results, that sentiment taken to its logical conclusion begs the question : why use poser at all? why not just go over to Gettyone and order a CD of stock illustration from their vast library.?? As far as people using high-end render solutions for poser product promos I agree that the disclosure should be made( rendered in lightwave etc). But there are people who actually provide light sets and environmental refection maps that are used in their promos.a great example of this is Sanctum arts "RDL7" package at DAZ. but look at the poser gallery renders of RDL7 and you see alot of horribly washed out renders with no shadows and figures that appear to be floating off the ground. so giving them the same light sets you used does not matter much if the buyer Does not want to bother learning to use the built in tools of poser to acheive his /her artistic goals.

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Why can't at least one promo shot be rendered in default poser lighting? I agree, I have gotten some real duds only to go back and find out they were not rendered in poser. I think it's not too much to ask, if you are proud of your product and sell it to show us what it looks like under default lighting, and then use the other two promo pics to show what can be done. Marque

The answer to that is simple. Default poser lighting is crap and nothing is going to look good in it. However, a product render done with a single white light might give the purchaser a standardised idea of the product. Obviously this won't work with a cmplicated set or mutiple props, but for skin textures it might be an idea worth thinking about. Jack

I agree ... the default lighting in Poser does nothing to compliment any render. It is always very obvious when a render is done with default lighting. If every product was promoted with it, nothing would be sold. 8-)

poser default vomit lighting sucks :x perhaps renderosity can decide a "standard" lighting site where all products must use atleast 1 pic rendered with that lighting perhaps a white/grey mix, no colors that would show off best i think but using render engines like bryce/lightwave/etc is the bigger problem, its like a merchant is selling a filter or lense on a camera but he used a different high end camera to take a picture and say "look at the nice picture you can get with my lense!" while in reality, the lense had a small part in taking the pic, and the pic was more based on the camera and film it was using

I totally agree. Making promo page three image in something aproaching the Poser 4 default would be a nice courtesy. I promo for a different site showing both P4 and P5 renders clearly marked as such plus an artistic render where I do what ever I like. Personally I have a lot of respect for artist selling mesh who have the guts to include a wireframe in their promos. The issue isn't exactly what vendors SHOULD do but simply what prospective buyers would find a courtesy... a straight render or at least tips on getting something akin to the promo. If we permit "artistic" liscence in ALL a product's promos why draw the line at straight renders... I could make the standard P4 Nude Woman texture .tif look like a real skin just using P5 procedurals much less post-work.... maybe I could sell a beige square as a high resolution texture (LOL). Just pulling your chain ;)

"The answer to that is simple. Default poser lighting is crap and nothing is going to look good in it" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you!! and I see no reason for merchants to waste our limited store space posting Crappy unflattering rendersof our products to show how bad lighting can ruin a good composition . there are plenty of such renders in the galleries already

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----------------------------------------------- "poser default vomit lighting sucks :x perhaps renderosity can decide a "standard" lighting site where all products must use atleast 1 pic rendered with that lighting" ------------------------------------------------ Pardon me but no F*cking WAY !! will merchants allow this kind of Draconian collectivist,Oligarchial, lowest common denominator standard imposed on how WE display the products that $$$Fund$$$ this operation. this is the ANTITHESIS of the free market citizen, that would send rosity's most talented merchants fleeing for other markets.

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Sorry, if I don't see a poser render it makes me wonder what they are hiding. A good product will stand up to the scrutiny of default lighting, and you still have two other shots to show what it CAN look like under different lights or if rendered in a different program. In fact from here on out I will not be buying unless I see that it has benn rendered in Poser with no special lighting packages. Marque

Think I will go clean out my wishlist now. Marque

Here you go- I just purchased - after reading the first message - Jose - Opened poser 5 added M3 the default Jose texture - used DAZ complex lighting 2 - studio1 light. Not bad on a first attempt.

comments.....

Merchants should be allowed to depict their products in the best possible light -- so to speak.

As for those of us that lack the skills to reproduce fine renders.......that's the breaks.

There are simply too many variables which affect a render for merchants to be able to guarantee consistent results every single time -- by every person that might attempt to use the product. Unlike Pong, Poser isn't a "plug 'n play" type of application. Poser requires a certain skill level in order to work the program properly.

Some people might have a hard time with Pong, too.

Microsoft Word doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to turn out brilliant pieces of writing. An additional effort is needed to achieve that.....an effort beyond using the default Microsoft Word templates.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

As a merchant myself, I have to jump in here and echo wolf's sentiments. The standard Poser 4 render engine would have been state of the art 15 years ago, but now it just looks dated. On top of that, some people would prefer us to render promotional images with that awful default lighting? No way. You have got to be kidding. Do you walk into a supermarket looking for rotten fruit or stale bread, because it CAN look like that? Of course not. You want the nice juicy apple and the freshly baked loaf. When I produce a Poser product I use Poser to render the promos, as much as I dislike the renderer, because I know customers will render it in Poser. I refuse however, to be told that I must use that terrible, terrible default lighting scheme. There are enough really bad renders out there without us having to add more on purpose. Most of us want to present our products in the best light, not the worst imagineable. People who buy products and expect to have their hands held so that they don't have to do anything at all themselves are missing the point entirely. You also have to take some time to learn how to use the software. Putting your products in the best light is not deception.

I am also a merchant and unless I am including a small light set with my textures, I always render my promos in the Poser Pro default lighting. Unflattering, maybe, but it shows the character texture in its default state, and shows the customer exactly what he is getting. Maybe thats why I don't sell a lot of them, lol.

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damn I've gotta pay more attention to those nudity tags..waking up to a butt naked male aint pretty,lol & on topic..ditto JV..lighting matters ;)

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All remarks about "learning to use the lights" aside, look at the colors of the very first render. Under the same lights, one is red, the other is green- you can't have it both ways, one or the other figures (or maybe both) is expecting the use of colored lights to make the skin tones shown in the Merchant's pics. IMHO, textures should be designed to work with a white, or very close to white, main light. Otherwise your kidding youself, what are you going to do if a second figure in a scene requires tinted lights that go the other direction? I don't even use the Poser default lighting, I use a "whiter" version of it, and I'm sure all of my customers can do at least as well in there renders as I do in my promos- I'm a mesh guy, after all. ;-)

while lightning isnt a huge issue agreed that many need to learn lighting but using an outside render engine would be against marketplace rules -------------------------------- To assist customers with their purchasing decisions, these pictures are intended to be an accurate representation of the product without adjustments. -------------------------------- the product is made for use in poser as advertised on most of the items here using an outside render engine creates an image that is 100% imposible for a poser use to recreate, and therefor violates the rules of selling at renderosity lighting however is up to the seller creating a promo image in basic lighting is totally up to them, and at best can only be an "asked for" feature from buyers

I haven't run into any artists here or at other sites that I'd accuse of using deception in advertising. I do NOT advocate using default Poser lighting. However, it would be nice for the merchants to mention which lights they use, and it would be nice to render images in Poser. Notice many merchants state that no postwork was used. This is a great attempt to let us know the images were not altered. Use the same approach to lighting. (ie used RDNA's light set, DAZ's light set, etc.) There is no need for arugment here. If a merchant listens to his/her customers on issues like this, the customer will reward the merchant with further business. If the merchant gives a negative attitude, the merchant will most likely suffer from lost business. We make our choices.

" ----------------------------------------------- "poser default vomit lighting sucks :x perhaps renderosity can decide a "standard" lighting site where all products must use atleast 1 pic rendered with that lighting" ------------------------------------------------" would'nt work with the enviroments I work on.. which btw do ship with lightsets that match the renders we promo.

You know, you're very close to asking the merchants to make your images while they're at it...

Lucie
finfond.net
finfond.net (store)

Unflattering, maybe, but it shows the character texture in its default state, and shows the customer exactly what he is getting.

Not really.

Only if renders were done in white or gray lights would the customer see exactly what they are getting. The default lights have one white, one green, and one orangy/brown light, which throw the actual colors of any texture WAY off. Only with white or gray lights will you see the colors exactly as the artist intended.

Message edited on: 03/16/2005 19:38

Yeah, I can see why you'd buy this model. He's a handsome feller! ;-)

Oh FINALLY, a use for those 'too bright' lights I bought from DAZ! A model that's too dark. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

I never really recognized it before I saw your render, but this guy looks a lot like Jude Law. I didn't notice that in the promo shot.

**** NOTICE NOTICE FREE MARKET ANALYSIS ****

Merchants. I've purchased 500 items from here spent over 7G. What prompts me to BUY... 99% is how well your product looks in the previews - the 1% is if it fits a need.

I want to see how well your product will look. Who else but the designer should be able to exploit every detail of the product - show it in its best rendering?

Im sorry BUT if I see a poor render one that does NOT SHOW OFF THE WORK. My tendency is to think the quality of work is inferior.

Please continue to present you products in the best possible light (no pun). Wow me, impress me and continue to take my money. And I will continue happily purchasing and attempting to get that same wonderfully impressive result you have.

Look to see if I come up in your store. If not hummmmm!
.

For comparison default P5 lighting. (see my render above)

I might of even purchased this one with this render - but I DID purchase it with the render on the product preview page

Besides - when was the last time a TV dinner actually looked like the photo..

Message edited on: 03/16/2005 20:18

My default lights are white, orange and yellow, in poser 4 pro pack and also in poser 5. Marque

Just how often do merchants render any of their promo images in other programs than Poser? Even once is unacceptable. I would like to see one in Poser 4 or Pro Pack-- same renderer. And one in P5 Firefly. I supose once 6 comes out, more will eventually be added. Nothing in Max, C4D, or even Daz Studio. Not even a gallery shot. If it's sold for Poser, it should be rendered only in Poser. I'm dissappointed by merchants regularly now including postworked promos on page 3. That space could be used for a side view, something which is often overlooked and can show a nose that disappears at a 90 degree angle. Links to postworked renders is fine, but nothing in the actual ad should be in anything but the host program and unworked. Even hair, I don't mind probs with hair, I can overlook it. I'm fine with white lights used in promos, I can spot Poser default lights a mile away and they are sickening. But, again it would be nice to know what lights are used, global? All white? a special package? If the latter, one all simple white light render should be included--preferably in a skin texture, the full frontal shot. I don't think that's taking away anybody's freedom and if you can't make your product look good under those conditions-- well, that says a lot too, doesn't it? Emily

Marque ... it might be the yellow one that I'm calling "green" ... I guess you could consider it dark yellow.

Jeepers Christmas, folks. Ever watch a car commercial? The sexy new model of the year shows the car racing at 70+ MPH around a scenic landscape with a tiny disclaimer indicating "Professional Driver on closed course" The ads for trucks show them pulling other trucks or Two-Ton loads of cinderblocks up muddy hills... The ads for minivans show them dodging a veritable diasater course of rainstorms, potholes, stray animals, and sudden stops in traffic while two angelic children seep blissfully in the back seat, buffeted by the gentle gyrations of Anti-lock braking and superior steering technologies. Anyone want to guess how much CG is invested in a car commercial these days? You want hard stats? Read the reviews in Consumer Reports. That said, FWIW, A quick disclaimer or tag indicating the render engine used doesn't seem an unreasonable requirement.

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=31293

Here are some screenshots of Eden that I rendered under various lights as indicated in the image.

If you will go to my store (link above) and view Eden's promos, you will clearly see that Eden has olive undertones in her skin, and these tones are going to appear more predominant in certain lights. Perhaps I am being too presumptuous, but I'm fairly certain that this tone is evident in the promotional images on her page. I'm not sure about other merchants, but when rendering the promo images for my products, even though I may use a particular set of lights, I am forever adjusting them slightly, depending upon the pose, the background color, etc. Honestly, I don't feel that any promotional images for any of my products are misleading, and have never had anyone suggest so, but if a customer is not happy with one of my products or feels my advertising is somehow misleading, then I am more than willing to offer a refund.

Maybe we are forgetting that we don't all use the same graphics card, or display resolution. What I render on my computer probably looks totally different on someone else's, even using the default Poser lights. And monitors differ ... so unless you have the exact same equipment as the person you made your purchase from, AND the same graphics card, AND the same display resolution, etc.... your render cannot possibly look exactly the same.

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Well, heck I might as well jump in here too right?

First of all, when I purchase a product here (and I've purchased plenty) I do pay attention to what the merchant renders it in. I've been around the block long enough to know that if it's rendered in anything other then Poser, when I go to use it in Poser it's not going to look like the promo ads....I don't use Poser 5, so when I see that something is rendered in Poser 5 I don't even take the time to look at it, because it has little to do with my current artistic situation. What I do look for is those little numbers either on the ad or in the readme...the resolution, the size of the textures. I look at the closeup renders of the neck area and see how blurry it looks (for skin texturers that's a dead giveaway to the quality of the product)I'm a beta tester, I can tell you where to look for judgement of quality and the front face shot is not it. That without a doubt will be THE BEST part of the texture usually. The rest is what you have to worry about.

Anyway, I would like to see white lights used by merchants, that is what I use on my products. Artistic renders are nice, but I would rather see a list of them in the ad so I can see what the souped up model of their product can do while I can see the bare bones in the ad.

I don't have Jose for M3 yet, but it's been sitting in my cart ever since it came out. It looks really, really good and I like the morphs too :)

As far as Rhiannon's stuff goes, I buy everything of her's I can get my hands on because I know without a doubt it will be a winner :) And that's without even knowing what lights she uses. She has grown by leaps and bounds and is getting even better :)

Anyway.....

Kimilche, I truly understand your frustration, but the plain fact is with Poser you will not be satisfied with anything rendered right out of Poser until you come to grips with the lighting system. It's hard I know but there are so many good lights out there.

We as consumers need to remember to read everything on the product ad pages even the fine print.

And we as merchants need to remember to make sure our customers know what they are looking at before they buy.

I totally agree however, if it's made for Poser, that is what it should be rendered in. Leave the other renders for eye candy for us to look at to see what the product can really do :)

Deb

Okay guys, it's real simple here: If you're going to sell something for a specific tool, make sure it looks decent in the tool you're selling it for. Anything else is misleading advertising, period. (Hiya Kolschey! Don't take this personal, but...) Poser merchants aren't Ford, they're not GM, and they're not Daimler-Chrysler - they don't have the same leeway that makers of high-priced durable goods have. Also, even on their most outrageous-claimed commercials, you'll see a shedload of disclaimers somewhere in there stating that the product they're showing off includes special-order or premium packages that are available (at a higher price) to the potential customer. I somehow fail to see the same disclaimers in a lot of the high-end CG-rendered promo images here. You'll also notice that the nanosecond any of those big boys get caught advertising a feature that their product isn't capable of will usually be met with strong and loud criticism from nearly every watchdog organization on the planet, as well as a tidy but unrelenting reports of same on the evening news. (...and Lord help you if you get caught putting out a misleading ad in the UK...) Jim Burton made a ton of sense up there... I strongly suggest that anyone who claims to be a merchant take the time to soak his words in. If poser merchants don't have the skills to make something look presentable under a decent set of available Poser lights and Firefly, then perhaps they shouldn't be selling anything for Poser? Either a merchant is a professional, or a merchant is not. Those wanting to reach Jim's level of longevity, stature, and sales record would do well to heed his advice. --- There are some other concerns which I think I may be able to address: "Maybe we are forgetting that we don't all use the same graphics card, or display resolution. What I render on my computer probably looks totally different on someone else's, even using the default Poser lights." True, but a promo image will, if honestly presented and rendered under a communally-accessible light set, look the same on my monitors at home via website before I buy the thing as they should on those same monitors via completed render while I'm using the product. OpenGL will certainly alter that a bit, but not by a noticeable difference... and not enough to justify using a $4500 program to help fudge the promo image. "Im sorry BUT if I see a poor render one that does NOT SHOW OFF THE WORK. My tendency is to think the quality of work is inferior" I agree - but if it requires something outside of Poser to make that happen, then maybe the merch should sell it to someone other than Poser users? "would'nt work with the enviroments I work on.. which btw do ship with lightsets that match the renders we promo." Makes perfect sense though... you're supplying customers with the means to match the promo render results, no? If nothing else, that's a damned good idea (and one that used to be implemented a lot)... provide the light set you used in the promo render. Can't be too hard to save and package a custom light set, can it? " when I hear: "i am not an artist cut me some slack" that implies Do all of the work for me so i dont have to do anything at all to get my desired results..." OMG! Dude - this is POSER! lmao (sorry - had to.) Seriously though, what exactly d'ya think the RMP demographic consists of? It's a huge number of folks who don't have the time, patience, or (let's be honest here, 'cause I'm one of 'em in this category - ) talent to pull off all this stuff by themselves - otherwise we'd all be over at CGTalk, bragging on our latest and greatest stuff, like, say, a '1325-man-hours-and-counting!' render of a homemade meshed, rigged, and textured cockroach crawling across a homemade meshed and textured tabletop laden with homemade meshed and textured dinner clutter. /P

bragging on our latest and greatest stuff, like, say, a '1325-man-hours-and-counting!' render of a homemade meshed, rigged, and textured cockroach crawling across a homemade meshed and textured tabletop laden with homemade meshed and textured dinner clutter. Ah, yes.....the dream of every true 3D artiste. Cockroaches and old food.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

And spending 1325 man hours to create it. Just what I've always wanted to do. CGtalk, here I come.........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"And spending 1325 man hours to create it. Just what I've always wanted to do." Then you render it in poser with the default lighting.... and it looks like crap. ;o)

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Then you render it in poser with the default lighting....
and it looks like crap.

No....I wouldn't trust such an important scene to Poser.

I'd rather spend $1500.00 or so on Lightwave. Then, I'll be a real proffesssyonyal.

I'll be able to turn out cockroaches with the best of them.

The bugs wouldn't get as many hits as a NVIATWAS render -- but then I'd be able to start searching Turbosquid for $360.00 human models -- as opposed to a $6.50 V3 character in the MP here.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Who wouldn't want to be a proffesssyonyal?

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

LightWave is far more expensive than Poser for a large number of good reasons, one of them being its renderer.

LightWave is far more expensive than Poser for a large number of good reasons, one of them being its renderer. I'm well aware of that. Trust me....I have absolutely nothing against Lightwave. It's a great app. But, like a lousy photographer with $90,000 worth of Hasselblad equipment......the expensive app won't make up for a lack of skill on the part of the practitioner..... ......and the same goes for Poser renders. ;-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Absolutely Xenophonz. I couldn't agree more.

You know.....I've known some photographers that can take wonderful pictures with a cheap 110 camera. And I've known others that actually had the Hasselblad -- and they couldn't photograph the side of a barn (so to speak) without messing it up.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Personally -- I don't care that the beautiful photograph happened to be shot with a 110.......... .....but on the other hand, one shouldn't blame Hasselblad for shots that look like they were made with a 110. *********************************************************** Some individuals have the ability to work magic with Poser alone. That's great. To me, it's the final work that matters. Not how the artist got there. *********************************************************** However -- one should not blame others for one's own lack of experience. Or even skill.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

A photographer friend of mine knows someone who is obsessed with lens sharpness. He does all sorts of tests and spends hours inspecting the images close up. Apparently he only ever produces crap images though, when he actually gets to pointing the camera at a real subject. I suppose for some people just knowing that they have the best gear available is enough.

lol i know a person over $100,000 of camera stuff lenses, filters, cameras, etc 50 years and the only pics he ever took, used a cheap disposable camera o_o yep some odd people

I never buy products with promos that are obviously rendered in the Poser default lights, or with poorly chosen focal points for the cameras. I always figure that if the merchant doesn't know how to change those very, very basic settings to something more attractive and appropriate, they don't know much about Poser, and therefore their product will be of questionable quality. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

i tend to use the basic poser lights when doing renders for poser products, i want my products represented as they appear of the box so to speak. its not that im not "smart" enough to do fantastic renders of my products, and it may cost me sales, but im selling products, not artwork.

I think I agree with the idea of having either one or a small set of white lighting setups that are standard for at least one promo render, something everyone can download. On the rest of the images, knock yourself out with a Times Square lightshow if you want. Peng is right. Poser is not just somethig for artists/geeks, excuse me dedicated hobbyists anymore. You can't just assume a level of knowledge or tenacity at trial and error equivalent to your own. Sure some people will graduate to the manual SLR mode but many of them would just be content with decent snapshots. I like the photography anology because that's a field where you can choose between the disposable cardboard camera at one end, the pimped out Nikon at the other and in between, a range of cameras with enough smarts to help even a klutz take pretty good quality pictures. There really is no in between in 3D. Even Poser is more akin to a basic manual SLR. I've said before in several threads, the market is there. The technology is there to make things like lighting much easier than it is. We can do wizards, we can provide realworld referenced presets. Let those who want to tweak tweak away. Give the masses something they can achieve pleasing results with and not have to spend countless hours of ritualistic sacrifice. Whoever does that will become rich.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

When I become a artist, I'm gonna pimp my ca-ca roach. Man, I'm gonna put some hydraulics, chain antennas, a lacquer paint job and some tuck and roll seat covers. Then all you bitches are gonna sayin' I'm the man. Later Homes.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

True enough, Peng. That's why I did say that I can see the value in having a disclaimer at the bottom of an image indicating the renderer used. Let me make that clear. :)

Just the same, I also know from the toy and game industry just how ubiquetous the phrase "product may differ slightly from image" is. A number of my friends have worked in advertising, so I may just be used to all of the modification that goes into a promotion, whether it be a trade booth or a print image.

For example, my wife and I have been working for some time to photograph my sculptures. This isn't an easy thing.

Shooting them isn't hard, but shooting them WELL is. As it turns out, part of the problem has to do with lighting. We have found that often the work is overexposed or underexposed.

Recently we spoke to a friend who is a gallery director. She indicated that the issue was all about the lighting. It now looks like we will need to get some better quality lights than what we have been using. These won't be cheap, it seems, but they have the potential to make my work look a lot better than the setup we are presently using.

I guess part of what I find myself wondering is whether one set of photos is more "honest" than the other. I am not modifying the sculptures themselves- but rather the presentation. If one is selling an item on Ebay, it makes sense to lay down a good backdrop and light the item well after taking the time to arrange it carefully, then use a tripod to steady the camera rather than simply plop it down on the kitchen table under a 75 Watt bulb and snap the piece freehand.

Just a few thoughts.

Message edited on: 03/17/2005 06:46

my roach is the baddest, you can go ahead and bring it lmckenzie, your roach will get shown! ;) lol

its not that im not "smart" enough to do fantastic renders of my products, and it may cost me sales, but im selling products, not artwork. Ah, but I'm a very visual person. If the promos don't look good to me, I won't buy the product. I don't want to have to imagine how it would look with better lighting, more artistic presentation, etc. Maybe it's just me, I dunno. I like promos that make me think, "Wow, I could make a render like that, too!" and if the promo render is lackluster, badly lit, etc. etc., it just doesn't want to make me do a render with it. :-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

i hear you elizabyte, and i do try to make them look as appealing as i can,with the admittedly bad default lighting. but showing what your really buying no frills added, tends to avoid things like this completely. i was just more or less disagreeing with the idea that it should be common practice that the mechants use special light setups,rendering it in this and selling it in that, postworking in photoshop, etc. and the buyer should just take into account that, yeah this is the kind of results you can get, "with 8 hours worth of tweaking lights photoshop manip,color correction sharpening etc." with the "all at the click of the render button" sales pitch. its deceptive, i know it happens all the time, everywhere...in my eyes that still doesnt make it right. J.B.

Oh, I don't think postworking or rendering in some other program is acceptable. I just think those default lights suck, and almost nothing looks good in them. Even just changing them all to white instead of that icky yellow and greenish... shudder But the fact is, I HAVE seen some promos that were so awful I wouldn't have bought anything from the merchant, because the promos really demonstrated that the person had very little grasp of how to use the program. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

It's sort of basic to me. If you're selling me a product for Poser I want the renders to be done in Poser. However I don't mind if the Renders are done in Daz Studio because that program is freely available. I don't require default lighting. But it's very nice indeed if you mention the light set you used for the promos.

Calypso Dreams... My Art- http://www.calypso-dreams.com

Renderosity Gallery

Funny you should mention that, Elizabyte. This reminds me of a topic over at PP once when folks were debating about the use or misuse of the term "artist".

I remember Mendhi saying something very interesting in that thread, and this is not a verbatim quote by any means, but her comment was something to the effect that much of what she saw the market as selling was material that allowed people to think of themselves as artists. In essense, a merchant is working to inspire or excite the customer to think that this character, texture, scene, etc. is the thing they need to realise a vision or create a work of beauty.

Obviously, we all know that there is a heck of a lot of work that goes into a decent piece, but it's not neccesarily the merchant's job to emphasize the labor involved.

Here's another analogy. I use power tools. Now if you watch any advertisement for a Black and Decker drill, circular saw, etc, you'll likely see a handsome, rugged looking fellow- possibly with his equally attractive wife, creating a lovely gazebo or a deck for their back yard.

Now if the ad were to show the circular saw cutting through three-quarter inch steel or poured concrete, then that would certainly be misleading.

But is it in fact misleading to show something that the tools could build, in the hands of a skilled craftsman using quality material?

For that matter, look at advertisements for most consumer products. When was the last time you saw a television or print ad showing a vaccum cleaner used by a heavyset middle aged person wearing sweatpants, fip flops and tee shirt in a cramped apartment? When's the last time you saw an ad showing a cellular phone in the hands of a gangly teenager with braces and acne, or a fat balding businessman in a rumpled suit?

Or for that matter, look at advertisements for items like paintball guns. If I've had a dollar for every time I've sen a picture of a paintball gun held by a drop-dead gorgeous model, I could afford to buy myself some of those lovely anodized pistols.
Funny how most of the folks I know who play regularly somehow never seem to be nearly as pretty. It's like a whole different sport, somehow... :)

Again, to reiterate, I think it absolutely makes sense to clarify one's render engine and postwork. That's just basic transparency.

Good discussion, folks. Edited for typos. I'm all thumbs today.

Message edited on: 03/17/2005 08:34

it's not neccesarily the merchant's job to emphasize the labor involved I agree completely. Another analogy would be knitting patterns. They always show these gorgeous finished works, and all you need to do is use the right yarn and needles and follow the pattern right? Well... more or less. But some people have more talent for knitting than others. I can tell you for sure that even if I followed those patterns to the best of my ability, the end result wouldn't look nearly as nice as the ones in the pictures. On the other hand, if my mother-in-law knitted it, it might look just as good... Maybe the knitting companies should put pictures of sweaters made by semi-competent knitters just to be sure no one is misled.... ;-P bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

"Or for that matter, look at advertisements for items like paintball guns. If I've had a dollar for every time I've sen a picture of a paintball gun held by a drop-dead gorgeous model, I could afford to buy myself some of those lovely anodized pistols. Funny how most of the folks I know who play regularly somehow never seem to be nearly as pretty. It's like a whole different sport, somehow... :)" its a girl only sport they fill them with baby oil and umm o_o and using a render engine other than the product you are selling it for even against RMP rules if im going to use a high end render engine to render my promo instead of the program im selling it for, i may as well use photoshop or psp too its the same thing "end effect cannot be remade in the program i selling the item for"

I have bought many products unfortunately that have NOTHING to do with what was in the promo render... I have made P2 figures look like fine oil paintings or as realistic a any Milennium 3 figure, would it be fair to people to promo those characters with those images? It would simply be a courtesy to include one basic render... I purposefully render in P4 on an old PC for promos and I would probably render in P3 if I thought any newbies were still using that. If post processing is not concidered kosher that why is only showing images that display your incredible artis artist a right? I'm sure you guess of the artistry to make a low polyy cylynder look like Brittany Spears... How is it onerous to include a basic render as image number three? The examples are endless... again, I could render a single white pixel as a realistic texture using procedurals and I could airbrush a picture of a Yugo to looklike a Porsh... what would be the point? The point should be a satisfied customer. I am reminded of how many times I went to studio apartments listed as three room apartments in New York... did they imagine I wouldn't notice those other rooms were somehow missing when I came to view the apartment?

Sorry about the typing (e.g. "artis artist"="artistry"). I have parkinson's tremor that makes typing a bear. And yes I know I'm ranting... its just the mood I'm in... I usually keep my opinions to myself.

"showing what your really buying no frills added" I'd consider postwork that changes the appearance of a product in a promo adding frills or using a render engine better than Poser adding frills but I certainly don't consider using decent lighting instead of that horrible default one in Poser adding frills... It's still rendered in Poser completely only not with that shitty light.

Lucie
finfond.net
finfond.net (store)

hey even i hide or use as an edge light the shitty orange one...
just a more or less basic 3 light setup preferably white is fine too.
but the latest skin shader,fancy light set, and photo manipulation, is a bit much.
show me the product...not what rembrant,picasso can do with it in a month.

show me what a relative newbie can do with it in a little while..spending more time on your products rather than your "Promo" images would reduce customer grief alot, is the only point im trying to make.

Posers default lights are: Light Red Green Blue Main- 200 206 193 Greenish, weak Right 223 150 97 Orange/Red, Saturated Left- 126 117 63 Yelly/Orange Saturated My standard lights are: Main- 250 247 245 Very Bright, slight Red Right 213 178 162 Strong, Redish Left- 100 106 142 Weak, blueish I use the left light as a back fill, the right light is rotated back enough to show some shadow detailing, the main light is normally off to the left of camera view and does most of the work. Anyone who is a serious photographer knows how much colored lights, or rather the color temperature of the lighting used can effect the photograph. You have to filter for the reddish sunlight in the evening, the bluish light at noon high up a moutain, not to mention the filtering to correct incadesent lighting for daylight film. Compared to the small differences in these, Poser's defaut lighting is very strongly colored indeed, and I gather some go much farther into colored lights than even that. I have no problem with that, but I question designing your textures around that kind of lighting. I've also seen many textures that seem to expect rather bright lighting too, far brighter than my standard lights, (which are brighter than the default Poser lights, bear in mind). I think the standard DAZ Victoria III texture sets and Anton's Make-up collections that match them are excellent, but rather dark, IMHO. I run all of them I use through a Photoshop Settings file, to lighten them and pump up the saturation a tad (normamly you have to increase saturation if you lighten, and visa versa). The settings files I use are in PoserPro's Free stuff, BTW. Anyway, I think kamilche opened a big can of worms! ;-)

All right, Ese, your Roach is da bomb and all that but he cain't hang with my bug vato. Check it out dude. Homeboy is down with his coache and his movida. Orale!

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

"The answer to that is simple. Default poser lighting is crap and nothing is going to look good in it" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you!! and I see no reason for merchants to waste our limited store space posting Crappy unflattering rendersof our products to show how bad lighting can ruin a good composition . there are plenty of such renders in the galleries already that sums it up quite nicely. i think that postworking beyond painting some hair, brightness/contrast or adding a drop-shadow behind your character/object is shady. but a merchant should be able to exercise whatever skill they have in lighting, rendering, etc in their promos. working on a product for months and then slapping up a crappy render in the poser default lighting to make it look like a flat discolored mess isnt doing your product any justice, and is totally unfair to the merchant. part of the problem is that many merchants have other 3D apps - and theyre rendering their products in Max, Lightwave (cough Daz), Cinema4D, etc. whenever something is rendered in a non-poser app it should be clearly specified in the promos. if your product is going to look different in P5 than it will for P4 users, then that should be specified as well. Offhand i could list a couple dozen merchants who i know are not rendering their promos in Poser yet nowhere do they specify this -- and you can bet your life that something rendered in Mental Ray, finalRender, renderman, brazil, etc is going to make a Poser render look like trash in comparison. i believe that if you are marketing a product for the poser community then all of your promos should be done in poser - the same medium in which the product will be used, and not in a professional 3D app. however if you lack the morality to do this then at least specify what app you rendered it in and have at least one promo rendered in the program youre marketing the product for. cheers, -gabriel

guess im finding this thread a little late :) dont let me interrupt the roaches :)

What does roach mean/imply in this context... I'm unfamiliar with the expression. Jim Burton thanks for discussing lighting.

I've always been puzzled by the popularity of multi-colored "circus lighting." I suppose it's fine for achieving artistic effect but I'd settle for simple realism. It really does crimp the versatility of a texture if you have to use a peculiar setup to get it to look natural-what about the rest of the scene elements? You really do have to almost be a photographer or an inveterate tinkerer to get things reasonably realworld. Here's a little section of a lighting file for POVRay: ES_GE_SW_Incandescent_60w - GE Soft White incandescent 60 watt ES_GE_SW_Incandescent_100w - GE Soft White incandescent 100 watt ES_Nikon_SB16_XenonFlash - Nikon SB-16 xenon flash Now those are references I can understand. and immediately put to use...or I could if POVRay weren't a cryptic text file oriented rendering system :-) Put it all in a nice GUI package and I'll sell blood to buy it. A couple of POVRay renders using the lighting package.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

2.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Heheheh, I love those roach pictures. And that's a great shiny room!

As a follow up, I DID end up requesting my money back. I don't care that the textures can look good under certain proprietary lighting which they refuse to share, it needs to look good when rendered up on MY hardware with MY poses. Without the lighting, the guy is still purply-red and the girl is still green, so I can't use them.

As an aside - does anyone have any idea where I can find good, realistic, light-skin textures for Michael 3 or Vicky 3? I don't care if I have to spend an arm and a leg for them, I need them very badly.

As an aside - does anyone have any idea where I can find good, realistic, light-skin textures for Michael 3 or Vicky 3? Well, being that people's tastes are different, and being that a lot of us here don't use default lighting, it's really hard to make recommendations that will be to your taste. I don't see anything wrong with the textures that you returned. But you must have a particular look that you are going for. As an aside for myself, I think it's really unfortunate that you missed a lot of the points mentioned in this thread. With YOUR poses, even the same light sets that were used in the promo renders won't make the texture look the same, because the camera angle and pose will be different. It has nothing to do with the light set being "proprietary", or "secret." Rendered art is VERY dependent upon lighting, and the lighting setup will be different with every scene that you create.

In this context, roach means roach an insect as pictured, nothing more. Peng joked about a roach render and we had a little fun with roach renders. Hopefully it wasn't too much of a buzz kill for anyone. Ax the faeries if you must but please no OT in a Poser forum thread? That's heresy :-) Scurrying back into my dark corner before someone brings out the Raid.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Have you looked at the Daz original textures? I think the ones they had for V2 were pretty basic--maybe they ahve one for V3. I think what you're asking for is something that's colored like real skin using white lighting? I'm sure I'm flaunting my ignorance here but... I can see where poses, camera angle can all make a difference in the way a figure is going to be lit variations in shadows, etc. But if you're using white lights shouldn't the skin color remain the same? I think perhaps part of the problem, as Jim alluded to is that some textures are created in such a way that colored lighting is needed to get "natural" complexion coloring. In real life, people don't have greenish tinted skin unless they're sick. By the same token, people don't usually in places where the lights are blue, orange yellow etc. Colors are fine if you're going for an artistic effect but that's not exactly realism which is what some people want. IOW, if Vicky's standing in front of a temple on planet X, the sun may be red but in an office, the lights are predominantly white-in the generic sense.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Kamilche, I have never gone wrong with Ioli by Danae, here in the marketplace.

In real life, people don't have greenish tinted skin unless they're sick. Or Italian. My skin has an olive tint to it. Must be all those olives we eat. 8-)

i have olive skin but id hardly call myself 'green'.. geez, heh i think the problem may be a lot more simple: a lot of texturers need to calibrate their monitors.

To be honest, no render is ever really perfect right out of the box. You need to do at least a little post work. Even if it's just some levels adjustment or something. Kamilche, it's totally possible that the merchants used the same lights you did but took the scene into a paint program/image editor to "bring out" the colors/contrast a bit. It's just good rendering habit to do this. Perhaps that's why your attempts fell a little short? I don't know. With my models, I try to present them exactly the way they would appear on your screen but not everyone can nor should do this. We're trying to sell you a product, which means we want it to look as good as possible.

does anyone have any idea where I can find good, realistic, light-skin textures for Michael 3 or Vicky 3 That look good in Poser's default lighting? Nope. (Nothing does.) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Teyon "Kamilche, it's totally possible that the merchants used the same lights you did but took the scene into a paint program/image editor to "bring out" the colors/contrast a bit." by editing it in a paint program, is post work, which in turn, creates false advertising by the merchant watch yourself :)

Teyon "Kamilche, it's totally possible that the merchants used the same lights you did but took the scene into a paint program/image editor to "bring out" the colors/contrast a bit." Heh, I SO can't use a product that requires that. I am rendering the body in 1014 frames, so I can't postwork anything. It has to look good in poser, or it isn't useful to me. I understand about olive skin tones, and if it was something that affected the whole body, I could work around it... but since it's on the shoulders and belly only, it makes it less useful to me.

Coming late to the party, me own opinions about Rhiannon's stuff is that what I bought so far is great. I do tend to play about with lights a lot and mostly make my own sets. Rhiannon's textures are nicely done, well balanced for colour and free of baked in specularity, so they render well under a variety of lighting conditions. Can't speak for the other merchant's stuff because I haven't bought any products, but I can assure you that I have no connection to either.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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" strongly suggest that anyone who claims to be a merchant take the time to soak his words in. If poser merchants don't have the skills to make something look presentable under a decent set of available Poser lights and Firefly, then perhaps they shouldn't be selling anything for Poser?" I very strongly endorse this. Poser is capable of very presentable renders. Evern Poser 4.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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"Poser is capable of very presentable renders. Evern Poser 4." agreed that poser (4 and 5) render engine isnt the best but it still can do some damn good work alot can agree poser isnt the easiest rendering/lighting it with everything else takes skill, any ad i see selling something for one program (poser) but has promos made in another program (lightwave/bryce) just tell me the merchant doesnt have the skill to do it in poser, and makes me think the product will also be low quality

but not with Default lights

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