czarnyrobert opened this issue on Mar 19, 2005 ยท 66 posts
czarnyrobert posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 3:27 PM
Attached Link: http://www.cgtalk.com
Sadden by the embarrassing low level of numerous post in Vue gallery those last days I decided to launch an appeal - however I am conscious that probably it won't change a lot... But here it is:A P P E A L ! ! !
Guys (& Ladies ;-) ), look at the artistic level of Renderoisity galleries, and go on CGTalk and compare both galleries - OK pros are on CGTalk and amateurs on Renderosity, but we are all responsible for the look and artistic form of this place - be more inventive, be more exigent and critical towards your creations and those post by others.
Maybe some of you think that it is "politically correct" to post lame renders and require only "excellent" ranks and post comments dipping from hollow superlatives...
Doing this, we kill the artistic level of this gallery, we chase valuable artist from here.
Don't let Renderosity became a place for lame kitsch
Each of us can do better, can work harder on its pictures before posting them.
I play with Vue since 3 years, I have almost no other experience with graphics, never studied art - I am chemistry engineer - and Pole (my nation is known worldwide for its diligence, precision and invention ;-) just joking)
I can not do a nice picture in 15 minutes - nobody can - it is impossible - so I don't post 1000 same lame quality pictures.
Let's try to prepare something that can really impress someone and post it when we feel that we've done everything possible.
Lets all be responsible for THE ART!
May the imagination & creativity be with you!
Message edited on: 03/19/2005 15:28
Pollee posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 3:38 PM
I can agree with that but I like the look of renderosity's web pages much more than cgtalk's.
cermit posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 3:39 PM
Let me join to the appeal.
The level of great majority of renders in vue gallery is very poor. There are only few artists which art is worth seeing and comenting. In my opinion 90% of all renders in vue gallery is a simply KITSCH and nothing more.
Poor renders get excellent ranks and the overall level is going down
We are all responsible for this..so lets do somethong with it !!!!!!
Message edited on: 03/19/2005 15:42
pixpax posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 4:05 PM
I do agree....
BUT
I must admire you for having such an overall feel for the Vue community! There are DOZENS of pictures rendered in Vue posted here every day....and you claim that 90% of those are kitsch.....you must have an awfull lot of time on your hands to be able to view 100% of them - and claim 90% to be kitsch!!!
My opinion - as insignificant as it may be - is that a LOT of people do their VERY best to make great art with Vue! Not all of us are talented as you. No. Let me refrase: I am not very talented. But I DO enjoy making pictures in Vue. I work on a picture for days - or weeks! That might not be visible to you - and I do understand that. But calling 90% of Vue renders "kitsch" is to me plain snobbery!
A lot of people in here do their pictures in Vue and render with their heart! Respect them! What we achieve might not be fantastic - or even great, or new, or striking but the emotion behind it IS real!
ChuckEvans posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 4:16 PM
I'm not sure what to say here, czarnyrobert. What you have said is inspiring. I also agree with it a lot. And finally, off topic, I'm amazed at your English (bowing). But, as I lift my imaginary beer to my lips and stare across the small round table at you, I smile and ask you the following: IS Renderosity supposed to be pro? And what about the hobby people we have here? What about those, like me, who don't have a lot of artistic abilities? Should we just never post (because we don't want to embarrass other Vue users)? I wish Vue and Poser were not looked down upon so much in CGTalk. But, let's understand this: An affordable piece of software attracts people willing to part with money in order to try to express themselves artistically. The more affordable it is, the more people take that "step" to see what they can do. Your bound to get people who aren't wonderful with their new tools. And, I admire your work! It's wonderful and detailed as anything out there. But CGTalk just isn't R'City in my opinion. Two different sites if you ask me.
wabe posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 4:24 PM
"90% of all renders in vue gallery is a simply KITSCH and nothing more. Poor renders get excellent ranks and the overall level is going down We are all responsible for this..so lets do somethong with it !!!!!!" Oh well, how about helping people to do better? It is always easy to complain but not to participate and help - with comments critiques or answering technical questions. I know a lot of people here where i can see a big progession over time. By training, experience or whatever. Good help from friends too. So do something and help others to become better. Or does "lets do something with it" mean to ask people not to post here?
One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.
dlk30341 posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 4:27 PM
It takes me at LEAST 1 week, if not longer to put a pic together. I spend hours upon hours TRYING to perfect textures/terrains & lighting. So I will agree with pixpax, on the 90% "kitsch" thing.
Please for reference purposes, would you please tell us what you consider to be "kitsch". Also, please illuminate us all, as to what you consider your eyes worthy of looking at. I'd love to know what you think constitutes a WORTHY render.
I work 8-10 hours a day....I have only a few hours each night to work on pic & weekends(and yes ALL my peeps are clothed). So are insuating we should not even think of posting a pic in the galleries????
PFTTTTTTTTT.
I also agree with CzarneyRobert on some issues. I don't need drooling comments to make my day. So that's a mute point as far as I'm concerned.
Even though, some of the pics in the galleries albeit Poser/Vue/Bryce etc. are NOT what I consider to be good or to my liking, I will not tell the person such, not here. It's not up to me to put personal views onto other people. For example, I don't care for nudes, I find them boring, but hey that's me, that does NOT give the right to go spewing on all the nudes & telling people to stop. I can name several other generes I'm not interested in, but I don't consider them total crap, just because I'm not into that genre.
Message edited on: 03/19/2005 16:32
Jcleaver posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 4:32 PM
Although I somewhat agree that most pics aren't of professional quality; should only the professional quality pics be posted? If so, I guess I will never post a pic again. I do agree with the false grading system usually used. I don't want an excellent rating unless I truly deserve it. (Which probably won't be for a long while!) Sometimes I post a pic because I have worked on it, and put what meager abilities I have to it. If you have site that I should post to instead, I'm all ears.
aeilkema posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 5:00 PM
Although I do agree in some degree, remember that not all of us artists.... some of us just love to play and show of the fun we're having. czarnyrobert, I really admire your work, but we have to face the reality that most of us will never achieve what you can. The question is also do we want too? I'm not considering my self to be a proffesional artist at all and for that reason I hardly ever go over to CGTalk. They didn't even bother to have a Vue forums until Infinite came, that already says enough. I've made some nice work and I've made some what you would consider work that kills the artistic level of this gallery. But, I still enjoyed both of them as much and not all my work I do post is meant to be artistic at all. Some of it is wip, some of it is just for fun and some of it is good of enough even in your eyes perhaps. But I have chosen to go here and not somewhere else. I like it here. "Let's try to prepare something that can really impress someone and post it when we feel that we've done everything possible. I'm not into impressing people at all, I'm just sharing. I don't want to spent countless hours and hours on my work if that's not needed at all. I don't want to be a professional artist, it's my hobby and my work reflects that. OK, it's at times beyond a hobby, but I'm not depending on the most brilliant images I can create. I'm creating comis for a broad audience. the only purpose they serve is getting a message accross, they're not pieces of art at all. Most of my audience wouldn't even notice the difference between an OK and brilliand image. I do put a lot of efford into to my comics, but they just don't need perfection. That would be a waste of time. Don't let Renderosity became a place for lame kitsch It already is, just browse through the images. But then again, I don't mind. If I did, I wouldn't come here. Each of us can do better, can work harder on its pictures before posting them. Perhaps, but girs want to have fun too (and I'm not even a girl) and just want to share for fun too! "Maybe some of you think that it is "politically correct" to post lame renders and require only "excellent" ranks and post comments dipping from hollow superlatives... I do agree that people should be more serious with their comments and often art is ignored overhere (just put in a naked woman even if it's a crap image will get you excellent ratings and lot's of comments), but I guess that's just the way the crowd is over here. I really do thing these rankings and voting business should be gotten rid of, often it doesn't mean a thing. Lets all be responsible for THE ART! Honestly, I don't think most of us are creating art at all. May the imagination & creativity be with you! I hope so, but if I need to live up to your standard, my imagination & creativity would soon die.
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
Samhain74 posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 5:13 PM
I agree with the crap grading system,I and many here i am sure put work into something for many hours/days/week whatever and see it as ok,or mostly incomplete.Most people are never 100% satisfied with there work anyway.As for people posting "crap" images,well there are many upon many people myself included who are learning and sincerely want input from other artists,be it crap or otherwise,but all most of us get are "excelent" ratings when we know better.So yes,the grading system is alot of B/S,and we have all seen images that we thought really sucked in these galleries,but whos gonna stop and say "dude yor work sucks,stop before someone gets hurt."Besides,this is the point of having a "community" to share our work.Inspiration comes in alot of different forms.So i say give advice if not an honest rating.After all if your not part of the solution your part of the problem!
Ms_Outlaw posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 5:58 PM
First off, I love your work. You are very, very talented. If I had half your talent, I'd be a happy camper. I do have the desire even the imagination, but skill/talent is lacking. I don't flood the galleries, but do post occasionally. I would never post over in cgtalk. That is a pro site. I'm no pro. Rendo is a mix of all talents. A place all can feel free to post their works. One thing I do agree with is the lack of critiques. They help us grow. But then we have to have to have a tut on how to critique. Some people think saying 'this is trash' is a critique. Also some need to learn how to accept a critique. Artist with thin skins shouldn't post period. czarnyrobert you are our insperation. We need talented people like you to show us what can be done. It make us push harder. But don't slam those that can't reach your stature.
dlk30341 posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 6:17 PM
Another comment, if 90% of the artists here are "kitsch" Which 10% of us are worthy of CGtalk???? And to cermit, obviously if you looked 100% of the gallery you should be blind by now, from viewing all "kitsch" & crap. If you feel this way, why waste your time looking? I love your work Robert, but I find all of this turmoil very uninspiring. I would say as to why, but my personal & past experiences are no ones business. Then again, I'm an oddball. Off to listen to some music and get some inspiration back.
agiel posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 6:28 PM
There are multiple communities online for a reason.
I do not post at sites like CGTalk precisely because they are mostly Pros sites and I really don't feel ready to go there yet. I did post a couple of time to a similar site, GFX Artist, and the comments I got there were very.... humbling :)
It is a good thing that Renderosity members do not have the same elitist attitude - it keeps the place open and hopefully, welcoming, for all sort of people who want to grow and share their work.
Sure, it comes at the price of some shallow comments or abuses of the rating system, but it is still an open place for artists and hobbyists at any level.
You really can't compare the two sites. They both serve a different purpose. Ideally, this kind of appeal is nice, but they are removed from reality. You just can't simply ask people to become better overnight. The real question is : what can we do to help everybody get better ? - Tutorials are a way. - Sharing tips or commenting on WIPs in the forum is another way - maybe we could draft some kind of charter to help people provide beteer comments and to help artists better accept constructive criticisms Any other suggestion ?
Message edited on: 03/19/2005 18:32
dlk30341 posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 6:45 PM
Agiel...you nailed the problem "maybe we could draft some kind of charter to help people provide beteer comments and to help artists better accept constructive criticisms" I very rarely post any criticism, because a lot of people are thin skinned. In addition, I hestitate to IM anyone either. I would never say your art sux(never have never will, not that type of person)...that's not good. I've left some(not even enough that cover one hand) critiques before only to be IM'd & say don't do that publically. IMHO there is no real answer. I can think of 1 example where advice has been given(not be me), but the individual refuses to listen even though they ask for it...so what is one to do? I have to be honest...this topic & HOT20 have been beaten to death, that to me it's become quite boring. In addition all this friction is quite....well at this time I can't find the PC words to describe it. I wish I could offer suggestions to aide in this debacle, but I can't, for 1 reason...you'll never get all on board :(
Marque posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 6:57 PM
Do you post your art at cgi talk and let them know it's Vue? I like the idea that people can feel free to post their work here without having someone shut them down before they get started. I have absolutely no desire to check out your work because I am put off by your rude comments about other folk's hard work. Not everyone here has been using Vue for 3 years...but all are more than welcome in my opinion to post in the galleries without fear of reprisal from that such is you. Your opinion is welcome, but you make me afraid for all of the budding artists who are just getting their feet wet. That is what Renderosity is all about. Learning from those who have used a program and can point out, constructively, what they might do to make a render better. So all you folks out there who may be thinking it's not worth posting...post it with pride. You made it, and you have every right to share it. Because the day you stop is the day Renderosity falls. Marque
dlk30341 posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 7:00 PM
As stated above. BRAVO! I will add Robert does post his pics at CGtalk.
ShawnDriscoll posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 7:02 PM
The forums seem to have a bug as far as calculating a pic's average rating. If a pic's first rating received is an "excellent", then it tends to stick on "excellent" no matter how bad any following ratings are.
dlk30341 posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 7:11 PM
It's not just this forum..it's ALL of them! I find it amazing(only word I can think of now) that so many people are concerned with ratings/HOT20.....what a drag. I barely have enough time in my day to do laundry, let alone concern myself with such issues. THIS IS SO TIRING >:( What ever happened to helping people???? Isn't that why we all here?? I know I haven't become Rip Van Winkle & fallen asleep for days/weeks etc. I mean come on people...for cripes sake......
lingrif posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 8:43 PM
I went over to CGTalk and took a look around. It's an incredible forum (a bit hard to navigate) but I just didn't feel comfortable there. I'm not a professional artist and I do this for the pure enjoyment of creating something that pleases me, that gives me a sense of accomplishment. Period. I hang around this forum a lot because I like the feel of it. I always learn something for there are many talented people that are here and share their knowledge - be it technique, hardware, or just inspiration. I spend a lot of time in the galleries - I comment on what I like. I've been hooked on art since my first art history class, but I'm still not sure what "art" is. I'd sure hate to try and define it. To me, that definition is a personal interpretation. This gallery may not be full of "art" by someone's definition; to me it is full of personal creations - that in and of itself is a wonderful thing. It's what brings us together as a community of softs. I'm just glad we have a place to share it.
silverblade33 posted Sat, 19 March 2005 at 10:12 PM
Rosity isn't for elite uber artists, dont' even think of going there. You dont' realise this isn't about Vue, this is a place are meant to come and enjoy/share ART, and while I think most so called "Modern Art" is absolute useless drivel for fools conned by "The Emperor's CLothes"...they still have the right to enjoy it ;) Now as for the Vue forum, yes things could improve, in terms of general input, friendliness and fun, Compare Bryce forum to here. Please try and encourage POSITIVE input, not elitist views which end up causing bitterness :)
"I'd rather be a
Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in
Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
Free tutorials, Vue & Bryce materials, Bryce Skies, models,
D&D items, stories.
Tutorials on Poser imports
to Vue/Bryce, Postwork, Vue rendering/lighting, etc etc!
Nicholas86 posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 12:07 AM
Well said. I am looking forward to owning V5I. And I will say that there are a lot of talented artists at Renderosity. Especially in the VUE community. And there are lot of future creative minds. Those bad pictures you see now, will be the beginnings of future masterpieces. And who judges what is bad artwork and what is good. If the person learning something new in the process isn't it worth it to post it. This was a good discussion though. Always interesting to see what people think. Brian
XENOPHONZ posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 12:21 AM
"Elitist" would be a more appropriate term to use elsewhere.....not here.
"Elitists" aren't people that render pics for the gallery when they can find some free time between doing laundry and washing the dishes.
Sure, not everyone in the galleries posts work like a "pro" -- but the vast majority of golfers don't play the game like the masters, either.
One should permit the Weekend Warriors their day in the sun.
For some of us, it's a break from the mundane. Not a way to illustrate our artistic genius.
Call it Occupational Therapy for the Under-Talented, if you like.
But I choose to call it fun.
And there is no "elitism" in that.
If someone doesn't like to play canasta, then what are they doing sitting at this table? Are they merely here to ruin the game for those of us that like to play it?
Self-defense is not an indicator of elitism in operation.
;-)
But attacking those less talented than oneself......is.
dlk30341 posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 12:26 AM
OT - I love Canasta :)....played it with my parents from way back.........trying to get some happy memories back :)
Message edited on: 03/20/2005 00:26
XENOPHONZ posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 12:48 AM
Enjoy your Canasta, dlk. I enjoy mine, figuratively speaking. Time to log out. So long to the wars. For now.
sacada posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 1:06 AM
If you create an image and it takes you 5 minutes or 5 days, then post. If you are the best artist or not, and you want to post, then post. If you are happy to show others your images, post. If you want criticism then ask for it. I have seen too many potential great artist scared away by criticism (artists are often very fragile). MOST OF ALL ... I have seen many people become great artists as they grow and florish by the "Excellents" that they get in these galleries. Lets not scare anyone away.
Xiores posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 2:32 AM
I agree with Sacada.
When I first started using VUE 4 about two years ago, I posted some first pictures that (at the time), I though were fabulous. Looking at them now, they stink! But by constuctive criticism and helpfull tips left by others, as well as READING the manual, I hope I have improved. I am lucky enough to have ACTUALLY sold some poster prints of my work and I use my gallery here for show.
I have not posted in awhile, as I have been to busy to put a good picture together and also waiting on my copy V5I to incorporate some of the new features.
I feel some VUE 4 or VUE 5 users may seem intimidated by the new renders and ecosystems. They shouldn't. You can paint a good picture using two brushes or twenty. Same with software. Also, lets face it. VUE is a LANDSCAPE product first and foremost. I use models only to enhance a landscape or further it's mood. I'm not big into Poser models (except animals) as their best human models still look like barbie dolls to me. Just my opinion. No offense.
Anyone should post anything they wish in these forums. Some of the best art here I've seen never made the so called "Hot 20".
There are many good artists here, as well as beginners and those who do it for fun, and as a hobby. Sure, I would like the voting system cleaned up or done away with and I would like everyone viewing a picture to comment on it if requested to do so. Constructive criticism is always welcome, not mean sprited, or rude.
In any case, What's art to one , is junk to another. Thats to be expected. If you enjoy the picture, post it! But it does take practice and tutorials, and help to be a really good artist. And their are many good artist here who are really happy to help.
Ms_Outlaw posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 3:00 AM
I've been going through the gallery tonight... and I really think some of your comments are beyond critiques. Time to crawl off that high horse and chill out. One comment really set me off "don't post until you're really proud of it' jeez.. I highly doubt ANYONE posts anything they aren't pleased with. You are a great artist, but think you're in a bad need of critique tut. I think it's time I gave this forum a wide berth. Gettign a little chilly here lately.
MartinPh posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 3:31 AM
I'm a regular visitor of the SketchUp forum, and would love it if this Vue forum could be a little more like that: pros and amateurs discussing topics together and with mutual respect; a genial atmosphere, and constructive criticism where necessary. Lots and lots of tip-sharing. No rating systems and other such nonsense, obviously. As regards R'osity Vue gallery posts, most of it is a matter of taste, it seems to me. Somebody may post an image he or she finds absolutely perfect, and somebody else may still think its totally awful. Monet is generally considered a fantastic artist, yet I don't care the least bit for his work... On the other hand, though colouring, lighting, choice of subject etc. may be matters of taste, there are still such things as bad texturing, poor composition and at times just general sloppiness. Vue offers a terrific toolset that allows anyone who is prepared to really spend some time with the software (and the manual) to do these things well.
Darthmagus posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 5:23 AM
I understand CzarnyRobert. I do kitsch work because I'm not an artist, just an hobbyist.
cermit posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 5:29 AM
so here is my explanations: First of all I was talking about vue gallery at renderosity not a whole site: KITSH - in my opinions its a 15 minutes render made just to post something @wabe "Oh well, how about helping people to do better? It is always easy to complain but not to participate and help - with comments critiques or answering technical questions." I was trying to post a critique comments many times but next comments stopped me from doing @dlk30341 so here are my examples of kitsh http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=909945 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=909926 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=911183 to compare a few excellent renders: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=511861 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=553894 http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=907221 Generally I agree with most of your opinions but: - how can we help the community if "15 minutes renders" get excellent ranks ? - how could we improve the quality of renders if there are no any critique comments ?
gaetan036 posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 6:16 AM
Picasso a fait des toiles tout croche,mais y a qui achete pour des millions ses toiles,moi donnerai pas $5.00 pour une,y a beaucoup de personne qui ont evoluer depuis deux ans je vien sur le site
rodluc2001 posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 6:33 AM
my opinion... let post everything, but the vue community must improve the criticism on comments... too many "Excellent" and "wow ! this image is outstanding !". many images would have a "needs improvements" and some suggestion word... but Scott said right : "I have seen too many potential great artist scared away by criticism (artists are often very fragile)." so, is hard make the right thing (some artist wrote me some IM very disappointed, 'coz i'have made comment with improvements words...)
MartinPh posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 7:58 AM
Cermit, that is an interesting (and I would add, daring) comparison you are making, with these gallery links...Interestingly, though I agree that your three "excellents" all achieve far greater realism through clearly much more expert use of Vue than the three you label "kitsch", I also find that there is more artistic originality in the latter three pics than in the former. Great as the "excellent" landscapes look, they also have this generalized, technical, and rather anonymous "yet another really great landscape render" look. The three "kitsch" artists on the other hand, it seems to me, at least tried to do something different. That is not to say these pics are necessarily to my taste, and yes, technically they could obviously have been a lot better, but still. Again a matter of taste, it seems: what do you like to see Vue used for? To me, the effort to create a landscape that is indistinguishable from a photograph in any travel agency brochure seems somewhat self-defeating - a bit like people who spend months mastering a complex 3d modeling app, and then spend months more to create a photorealistic render of their mobile phone. I say, just take a picture of it and be done with it! - But that's just my opinion.
aeilkema posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 8:39 AM
czarnyrobert, you know what bothers me most about your post? You hardly ever participate in this forum, you hardly ever show us the way how to get better in our creations. Also you just 'dump' this thing on us and then dissappear again. I do find this a typical elite behaviour. In our country the elite does the same. They hardly participate in society, yet dump all of their ideas and rules on us, expecting us to follow their ways. If you would be one of us, guess you'd never even started the thread in the way you did. I do still admire your work and I used to look up to you. I still admire your work it's great, but I'm not looking up to you anymore. All of this may sound harsh, but clearly they way you want things to be just isn't the way people are over here. I'm not trying to be nasty or somethingm but I think perhaps this place isn't the right place for you at all.
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
cermit posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 10:25 AM
@aeilkema you dont know what are you talking about !!!! czarnyrobert is one of this artists which share almost all knowledge he has..He wrote several tutorials http://www.renderosity.com/tut.ez?Form.ViewPages=703 http://www.graphique3d.republika.pl/ and always explains how he made a render under ALL HIS IMAGES.
aeilkema posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 10:59 AM
But he hardly participates here in the forums..... helping out people here.
Just read through the posts here, quite a number of people are not familiar with his tutorials and his help, since it's not done here in the forums. and always explains how he made a render under ALL HIS IMAGES. I hardly call that an explanation at least not something I'm able to with much. I do about the same with some my images, but I don't think any really learns from that.
Message edited on: 03/20/2005 11:07
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
czarnyrobert posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 12:43 PM
Dear aeilkema, when I started my adventure with Vue - all I had was a free copy of Vue 2 - no manual, no internet, no forum, no tutorials to help me - just me and Vue 2 on my computer - Celeron 600, 128 MB ram. My first picture was very simple: http://www.vvveronika.republika.pl/GALERIA3D/GALERIA/G1/1.jpg It last for about 3 moths before I learned Vue to the level that enabled me to try to bother other people with my pictures - then I started posting (from my friends computer who had internet) - this was my firs post: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=197522&Start=37&Artist=czarnyrobert&ByArtist=Yes I was still learning on my own, and three months later, I could produce my first picture I consider really good - still on Celeron 600Mhz...: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=253156&Start=37&Artist=czarnyrobert&ByArtist=Yes I DID NOT REQUIRED from anyone to teach me Vue, I did not require from anyone to give my excellent ranks just because "I was so kind to post something here". For me it was a privilege if someone was loosing his time to look on my picture and even more if he written his opinion about it. Especially if it pointed out my mistakes - so I could avoid them next time. Those days the average artistic level of Renderosity was much higher - maybe this was the reason why posting each new picture was a challenge for me - and still it is. I wanted to offer something special for my viewers and did not require anything from them - you seem to require from your viewers confirmation how "excellent" you are - you seems to require from others to teach you Vue - but you are doing nothing to really improve... This is the difference... Everybody knows that confirmation policy was a huge failure that was just producing presumptuous lamers requiring adoration for NOTHING - you can not progress if you don't get realistic feedback telling you how good is what you are doing. You are not happy that there is no more tutorials made by me - just tell me have you ever tried to use my lighting techniques described in tutorial on my website? I doubt - I can't see it on your renders. Maybe have you tried to build terrains as I described in my tutorial posted on Renderosity? No... so don't expect more before you learn those basics elements... May creativity be with you!
aeilkema posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 1:04 PM
I didn't say at all that wasn't happy your tutorials, I wasn't refering to your tutorials at all, perhaps you should re-read my post again. Here's my first image created in Vue, I started last year with Vue 4.... http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=704027&Start=10&Artist=aeilkema&ByArtist=Yes The only pic you've commented on was the legions one and that one is just one of my 'just for fun renders' It doesn't need perfection, I'm just playing with Vue 5 a little. But then according to you I shouldn't post such images anyway. just tell me have you ever tried to use my lighting techniques described in tutorial on my website? I doubt - I can't see it on your renders. Who says I want to use you lighting techniques at all? Sounds like I'm not allowed to have my own style anymore..... You may have noticed that one of my images was choosen as E-On's pick of the day. That counts much more for me then you putting down my images (I doubt you've taken the time to go through all of them, I'm thinking you base your conclusion on the last few, which aren't the best at all, but just fun stuff). If E-On has chosen to showcase my work, I don't think I'm that hopeless as you make me out to be.....
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
wabe posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 1:06 PM
ok Cermit. What is art, what is kitch. One of the very popular artists: Jeff Koons http://www.artnet.de/ag/fineartthumbnails.asp?aid=9741 Be aware, there could be pornographic images under the images. Another one - Andy Warhol, a Polish artist. Especially his piss pictures - not more than 15 minutes to create i think (otherwise i would be very surprised). Ok, next one, a German painter, Carl Spitzweg http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/s/spitzweg/index.html Oh well. Another one: Caspar David Friedrichs http://www.artprints-on-demand.co.uk/noframes/friedrich/thumbs.htm More? Ok. Joseph Boys to name a more modern one. His fat corners probably didn't took more than 15 minutes to make. You can like the above artists or not but one thing is clear. The art scene does see them as big artists. How long someone works on an image has absolutely nothing to do with art or not. Absolutely nothing. It has to do with capabilities, yes. But that is another issue. Your link list Cermit. Without checking it i can say it shows that there are cliques. As it is in every group bigger than two. Even in the supergroup Cgtalk i am sure there are. What does this tell us? Nothing. Like it or not, it is natural and unavoidable. I agree, that people should try to make images as good as they can. But maybe there are some that cannot do better. They are not allowed to post here it seems. Are you the one that decide who is allowed and who not? I only can hope i am. A last point. I am sure there are cultural differences as well. I don't know about Poland but here in Germany i have the feeling that often only bad critics are honest ones - a lot people think. In other countries it is different so that words can easily be wrongly interpretated.
One day your ship comes in - but you're at the airport.
agiel posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 1:17 PM
Robert - if you look at your first pictures, couldn't they be qualified as Kistch as well ? (especially the first one). Remember that people are learning Vue at different paces. Some have the time/energy/talent to progress quickly, some are just posting images that they are happy with, without thinking more about lighting or composition. There is nothing wrong with that. Nobody requires 'excellent' comments. Nobody is forcing you to comment or not. And if some people do, simply ignore them. I can garantie you the majority of people posting here do not.
pmermino posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 2:17 PM
I'm tired with this thread. I'm disapointed to be in cermit's link list... I have never asked fot that ... I'm sad to read words like : ' Your link list Cermit. Without checking it i can say it shows that there are cliques.' I don't want to be members of a clique... if my understanding of english is good enough to translate it correctly .. specialy coming from wabe ... I have a real feeling of friendship for you Walther :-) but it's nonsense to speak about 'cultural differences'. And what about ' To me, the effort to create a landscape that is indistinguishable from a photograph in any travel agency brochure seems somewhat self-defeating ' Ok ... since months I have not allowed users to rate my pictures because I think it's a nonsense... no meaning Since this thread I will reconsider the 'Allow comments' .... May be soon I will stop post here ... :-(
czarnyrobert posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 2:25 PM
OK! For me it does not matter at all - put excellent ranks to all pictures you want, tell their authors how ~~MAGICAL~~ are they beach scenes with dears and large breasted vixens fighting dragons - it won't change a lot for me - now I am still here - because I used to this site - but for inspiration I have to look elsewhere. As I said initially, I am aware that my appeal and all this discussion won't change a lot - Renderosity will be more and more amateur site - and there will be here only a couple artists posting valuable works - other will go elsewhere. This is not my problem, this is not the problem of Renderosity owners (as they make money on people selling mainly amateur quality poser stuff) - just newbies will have less opportunities to compare their first renders with something that has some artistic value - as there will be none here. Just ask yourself why CGTalk artists don't post here...
agiel posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 2:56 PM
Why make such a big deal about it if it doesn'tmatter at all ? CGTalk artists don't post here because they are already posting over there maybe ? Face it - Renderosity IS an amateur site. That is why I like it here. If it became another of these elitist 'pro' sites, I would have to move somewhere else.
cermit posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 2:58 PM
@pmermino I have never thought that listing one of your renders as a example of a excellent and artistic work could dissapoint you...I am sorry for that...I can delete the link if you wish
aeilkema posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 3:36 PM
"Face it - Renderosity IS an amateur site. That is why I like it here. If it became another of these elitist 'pro' sites, I would have to move somewhere else." I think most of us would go somewhere else. Robert, I just went over too your site and read up on the creation of Silent Spring. It took you more then 7 days to create the scene, perhaps even more. Then 37 hours to render the scene. I'm an amateur 3D user (who does some proffesional projects once in a while, mainly comic related), got a family, a daytime job, I'm chronically ill (so at times I can't even be at my job or spent time on projects), got one decent computer (and a very old one running win98) and you expect me to climb up to your level. I don't have seven days time for one image most of my projects need over 50 images, it would take me a year or more to finish one project. I can not afford spending 37hrs on a render, again that's 77 days. Since Vue has the terrible habit of locking up a pc when rendering, I would need to buy a second pc for renders only..... Can't even afford V5I, so let alone a second pc. Most of us here are like that (except for being chronically ill, I do not wish that to happen to anyone, not even my worst enemy, if I would have one), so please forgive me if I do not have the abilty and desire to climb up to your level or higher. I do think this thread has run it's course and I'm not going to add more to it then this small statement: I'll hope you'll be happy now that you can play with the big boys..... just do remember that the big boys don't come and play with us and they don't want most of us to play with them either. Please allow each of us to have his/her own playground and don't try to create one big playground. That would really take all of the fun out of are little games and we would be bored watching the big boys play and not being allowed to play too, since they wouldn't allow us to play with them anyway.
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
XENOPHONZ posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 3:59 PM
If you are doing this for the fun of it, or for the love of it -- then please share with us. As for the snobs....I'll leave them to their childishness. It's possible that one might actually be the best artist in the galleries. Congratulations. Without a little humilitiy sprinkled into the mixture, others will tend to regard you as little more than a pretty vacuum. The best technically correct art in the world is nothing without heart. And a piece of paper scribbled on by a three-year-old can be ART for someone. Take your elitism, and file it appropriately.
dlk30341 posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 4:10 PM
There is an elephant in India that paints with its trunk. Just blobs of paint smeared all over a canvas. Some of this elephants work is in a few galleries. These pics sell for around 1000 - 10K. A bit of perspective ;)
babasara posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 4:15 PM
On most other boards I have posted on they have a very simple but effective system.
Within the title of your art you also put your required level of critique ie:
If you only want Gentle Critique you type title -GC
If you want Critique but not harsh critiscism: title - C
If you want Hard Critique put title - HC
I would suggest get rid of the 'ranking' system - it is irrelevant.
aeilkema posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 4:16 PM
"There is an elephant in India that paints with its trunk. Just blobs of paint smeared all over a canvas. Some of this elephants work is in a few galleries. These pics sell for around 1000 - 10K." dlk30341, couldn't you have told me that 2 days earlier? I took my kids to the ZOO on Friday. If had know this then I would have stuck one of the elephants in my backpack. They had 3 already, so I guess they could miss one, and I can use one for sure 3-) Message edited on: 03/20/2005 16:17
Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722
Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(
Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk
dlk30341 posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 4:28 PM
LOL - If I'm not mistaken...can't remember...I think there is one here in the US, that paints...but of course no where no as good as the one in India.....go figure :) There was a Discovery Special several years back...regarding amazing animal talents.
lingrif posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 5:15 PM
aeilema - As to post #45, I couldn't agree with you more. Thank you for saying it so well.
Lyne posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 6:16 PM
Sacada said it the best, and I find it interesting that while he is a fantastic artist, well accomplished in using vue, he has HEART and compassion for all of his fellows in the community. In posts I often refer to my PLAY ART...and that is just what it is... I play with doing art scenes, and I learn through doing, something new in each one...and I would hazard a guess that maybe one in 10 that I post (of play art) is special. I do enjoy feedback, but have chosen after a long time NOT to enable the rating under my art..while at the same time if I am "blown away" by someone's piece I will VOTE for it.... That said, I did actually add Robert to my Favorites so I could enjoy his amazing talent, before I really knew anything about him as a person. Now, I will continue to enjoy his art if he posts here, because it is simply stunning...but I will ALSO continue to enjoy all the art of my other Favorites - who, like me, are at the "normal" ability level too! ;) What is this software and our community obbsession with 3d objects for anyway, really??? FUN!! Pure, sharing, FUN...life needs a lot more of that these days, I think! :) I think very few of us make a "high end" living at this or we would not have the time to post here.... ?
Life Requires Assembly and we all know how THAT goes!
Xiores posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 6:17 PM
I have just one last comment. CGTalk JUST opened a forum for VUE users on March 15 of this year. Until that date, Vue went mainy un-noticed among the so called "pros".
In viewing many of the pics there, I admit there are some really good ones.. there also is plenty of KITSH. Just because a picture was made using Maya, run throught 72 filters, has added features of lightwave, and a hundred other programs, and rendered for 7 days, it can still be KITSH. I see also that CGTALK also has it fair share of "buddies" that rant or comment on a entry not by what it is , but who they know.
So whats the point here? I think art is in the eye of beholder. If you LIKE a picture comment on it. It should not be a popularity contest. IF you have a constructive criticism, post that too. Most artists I know have a thick skin and don't mind real criticism or tips to do better. The real acknowledge that your work is accepted by someone is when they pay you for a copy. The link below is for a render called Flamingo Bay.
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=697721&Start=73&Artist=Xiores&ByArtist=Yes
Is this KITSH ? I think so. Yet I sold it to a bar-resturant on Miami Beach for a little under $1000. Did it make the "hot 20"? Nope. But it did make it to one of the better bars who also sell it on their t-shirts.
So keep working on what you like, doing the best you can, and quit worrying over what other people think. Just because VUE 5 I is out, does not mean that no more good pictures can be made using VUE 3,4,or 5 to compete with it. Thanks!
Message edited on: 03/20/2005 18:19
ChuckEvans posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 6:29 PM
I can see "that" on a t-shirt easily. Good job!
creed2003 posted Sun, 20 March 2005 at 7:46 PM
Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=882701&Start=1&Artist=creed2003&ByArtist=Yes
Wow, I can't believe this discussion is still going on and that there are other posts in this forum on basically the same topic. I've been following along but have chosen to keep silent until now. Let me start by saying I've checked out your gallery czarnyrobert and you do have some excellent works. Even so I can't say I like every one of them but then that's just my opinion. Then again, my opinion probably doesn't matter much to you because I am a beginner, an amature with less than 6 months experience with Vue. Most of my images are probably the crap that your reffering to. (The link is to an image that I worked on for about 2 days and am very proud of. I'd be interested to see what your opinion is of it.) I'll admit I've posted some silly images, like the one I have since deleted of Emotia Guy riding a jet ski. It was a stupid render but I thought it was cute/funny and didn't really care what other people thought. I think that's what some people are forgetting here, some of us just post for the pure fun of it. Nothing more. We know our images aren't up to the professional level but we don't care either because we had fun making the image and want to share it with other people. Artists like yourself, czarnyrobert, are the people I would look to for help in making my images better. An experienced artist who can teach me the tricks of the trade, not bash my work because it's not up to professional standards. If I don't post my images then how can I learn??? Obviously, Renderosity has two different types of artists. The professional who is looking for a true ranking system and the novice/hobbiest/amature who just posts for the pure fun of it. Maybe the solution to all of this is a professional category where artists like czarnyrobert can post their work and leave the other categories to the rest of us amateurs. It would be interesting to see how many people actually post their pictures there :)
Marque posted Mon, 21 March 2005 at 3:21 AM
Had to check this person's work since you all say it's so good. I see a lot of models stuck in a vue scene, and sorry I don't think he's that great, I've seen better. But I would not demand that he not post here simply because I don't happen to like his style. The more models you throw in the longer the render, that doesn't make you better than the person who does a render of a beach with one tree. I don't think a few tutorials makes you and artist either. In one of the newer renders the roads don't even make sense, looks like all the effort was put into the ships. I don't typically cruise through the galleries making comments. If I like something I rate it. If it's excellent I say so, if not I try to give constructive feedback while realizing this person may not see what I see. Maybe the tree on the beach isn't the art, maybe it's the bird in the tree that is the key but one might be too quick to dismiss it because they see one tree on a beach and move on. "Just ask yourself why CGTalk artists don't post here... " Should I care that they don't? Marque
Muggle6 posted Mon, 21 March 2005 at 5:10 AM
Well creed you are right, it is amazing that the longest threads are about ranking and discussions about what is art and what not, or which programm (tool) is good or not instead about the art (pictures/images) itself. So there are my two cents: To Robert and all the other pro, or semi-pro artists who are posting such fanstic works: KEEP ON POSTING!!! Keep on posting for the reason of showing what is posible, to inspire and to give beginners something to strive for. That should be you motivation! Not any Excellents or Great remarks!!! You should know that your work is good and give a damn about any ranking. Instead, if you spent so much time, sweat and tears (and I bet there were a lot of tears, when I consider how often my Vue is crashing when I work with it) why don't you do a tutorial about it like Thomas Krahn did about many of his works (which are stunning, btw)? Personally to me, any references to such a tutorial or image would give me more satisfaction that an "Exellent" (and if you look and count, how many "Jungle" pictures have been posted over the month - that would boost my ego on his place :-) Also, why not posting small items you created for an image in the free stuff section, to give the less experienced something as a start up help (I know, Robert, you did and many others too, but there could be more...) And now to the "amateurs" like me (I am only a sunday-afternoon-bad-weather-artist): What is the point of sending a picture? A- You think honestly, you work deserves to be shown, because it could be inspiring to others. B- You think your work is not that good, but you need help. Well then, ask for it!!! But in this case it would be a good idea to disable ranking... C- Neither of those two points, well then, why use network traffic cost to post it.... I have to admit that choosing if the work is worthy to be displayed or not is difficult. For my part, I have chosen that my work is not worthy to be posted, yet. And here is to you creed2003: Is your house a 3D model? If so, why don't you pose it into an angle view, instead of straight ahead? Maybe even into a view from slightly above or below? To me, the proportions of the trees you have used, do not fit to the house. I think their trunks are too big. Put some grass in front of your house as you did with the tree on the left to hide the sharp edge. Your background needs some attention. Either more blurr or a steeper hill (you can see the horizon without anything inbetween the trees and the sky which is highly unlikely). Also used some more vegetation, perhaps a hedge half way to your house and perhaps with a nice gate (you could use the wooden door which comes with vue - I think - and jolt it in the vertical size. To all, use you energy for art and not for fighting (or argueing, that's a waste of time!!!;-)
creed2003 posted Mon, 21 March 2005 at 8:30 AM
Muggle6 I thank you for your tips. I know it's not perfect and I'm only a beginner but my intention of posting was for exactly what you just did. To give me pointers on how to make my images better. Next time I make an image like that I'll use the pointers you gave me. Peace everyone!!! Jim
ShawnDriscoll posted Mon, 21 March 2005 at 12:14 PM
I just think that czarnyrobert has simply outgrown Renderosity and needs to move on to other sites like CGTALK. Why stay in a nest?
Muggle6 posted Mon, 21 March 2005 at 1:33 PM
@Shonner Why to encourage someone to "leave" only because he/she posted his/her opinion. I would be disappointed if Robert would leave Renderosity. Don't you think it would be wise to make him share his work here as well? Maybe he can be convinced to live in both world. Art is no religion, so why not paricipate here at Renderiosiy as well as in CGTALK? Does it always have to be like "This is better than that?" @creed2003 I would like to see if your are incooperate some ideas in your linked picture. It would be nice to see if and that there are improvements even if it still looks like kitch ;- ) No really, it could be a good lessons for other hobby artist to see improvement. Because usually people starting their project very ambitious (by being inspired by really good examples) and then they are dissapointed by their own results. The reason is that they have no comparance to other work to see how slowly and painfull the progress can be (believe me, I know what I speak of. And the result are posting that others call (rightfully?) kitch. Mike
Belgareth posted Mon, 21 March 2005 at 5:46 PM
This is not the same Renderosity it was when I first joined up. Something has changed here and I find it very sad.
Having said that, I will continue to post my renders here, though from now on, I feel I will always have second doubts as to the level of my pictures/scenes.
To the Artist's like thomaskrahn, who share their secrets in how they created their renders, please, please, continue to do so.
thomaskrahn's Humidity Jungle tutorial helped me learn to create TWO beautiful renders (beautiful renders to me and some others at any rate), one of which won e-on's picture of the day.
The other was never submitted though I think it stood an excellent chance of winning as Vue4 had only been out for a few weeks or months by that time..... Here are the links...
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=338217&Start=55&Artist=Belgareth&ByArtist=Yes
and
http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=329552&Start=55&Artist=Belgareth&ByArtist=Yes
The comment left by thomaskrahn after I sent him the link to show him what I did using his tutorial, is the Renderosity I remember. One where people helped one another and did not waste time on silly banter about Kitsch artwork or elitism.
I also feel it would be a great loss to the Vue Forum and Gallery if Robert, and others like him, were to leave. I may not agree with everything he and others have said here, but we all need something/someone to aspire to (if that is what you want).
To those who merely wish to have fun and show off their work or quick renders.... Why The Hell Not???
There is no set standard here (that I can see) and we all have to start somewhere.
I am one of the lucky ones that could/would fork out the 167,44 for Vue Infinite and I second the comment earlier that the users of Vue4; 4Pro and 5/Pro should not be intimidated by the new renders/scenes that will be hitting the galleries.
For me, Vue Infinite allows me to create scenes (like the two links above show) a lot more easily, with the added bonus of GR, GI and IBL, but I remind you that the two scenes were created in a Buggy Vue d Esprit 4, so the Eco-System is not necessarily a huge advantage. And for Vue4 Pro users, rodluc2001 has created an excellent GR lighting program that creates a Python script for you.
So... lets just have fun in what we are doing and help those who are learning...
Gareth:)
creed2003 posted Mon, 21 March 2005 at 10:39 PM
Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=2156099
Djeser posted Tue, 22 March 2005 at 1:55 AM
I've been off the net for the last week or so, while moving, and am just starting to go through the forums and galleries to see what I've missed. I've got to say, I'm a little disappointed to see a few things in this thread.
The great thing about a software like Vue (4, Pro, Infinite, whatever...) is that all levels of talent, ability, and pocketbook can enjoy it. Whether you are interested in "perfecting" your sci-fi stuff, just piddling around with it and making the standard beginner's island-in-middle-of-sea-with-a-palm-tree, doing abstracts, killing time, playing with your imagination, doing photorealistic stuff, there's something in the various editions of Vue for just about everyone. While I admit there is stuff in the gallery I am not interested in, I would never make a cruel or mean comment to someone, whether in a critique or otherwise. Or to single out a few folks and call their stuff "kitsch" or whatever, to me, that isn't constructive at all; in fact, I find it rather unkind. One thing I've always liked about this forum is that most of the time, folks get along well, help each other, and defend each other when someone is being trolled or harrassed.
Please don't forget that there are people posting in the gallery of various ages, from teenagers to grandparents...people with physical and emotional challenges...folks who have a lot of time on their hands, and those who have to steal minutes to fire up their computers.
Robert and Cermit, I've always admired your skills at Vue, but I find it a little sad that you feel everyone posting in the gallery have to play by your rules...that only so-called "masterpieces" should be posted...that "art" is only what you may define it. What's going to happen in the Vue gallery if people post the kind of images you define as "kitsch"? Is Rendero going to close? Are people going to stop looking at your stuff? Is the sky going to fall? Will the universe implode? I doubt it. If you don't like "kitsch", how about just not clicking on the thumbnail?
ShawnDriscoll posted Tue, 22 March 2005 at 2:07 AM
I think Vue will survive regardless of the quality of Vue gallery postings. It's interesting that czarnyrobert thinks Vue will fail if not for him.
NightVoice posted Tue, 22 March 2005 at 9:45 AM
I just figured out what this arguement would be like outside of computer terms.
Take a get-together of people who like cooking. No schooling just love swapping recipes and having potluck sharing. Then in comes Emeril Lagsassi or Bobby Flay. They insult the people there by saying "You used cambell soup instead of making it for scratch?!?! You used a bag of veggies instead of fresh?!?! Come on people. Atleast try to make a good recipe instead before you share it with people of my sofisticated pallete. Keep this up and no other chefs will stop by anymore."
Atleast this is how it seemed to me. :) I for one would rather see people like cz shut up and get lost. Not because he doesn't have a right to speak his mind, it is because his work is so respected. When somebody likes you comes in and slams others, people get down about their work and stop. If even ONE person left these forums and never renders again because of feeling bad about the work, then you destroyed the whole point of this place. A place they once felt was a safe learning experience is now hostile to them. Good job.
Essexboy posted Tue, 22 March 2005 at 7:33 PM
NIGHTVOICE......HEAR HEAR Regards Essexboy