Ajax opened this issue on Mar 23, 2005 ยท 67 posts
Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:08 PM
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Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:21 PM
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Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:24 PM
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Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:30 PM
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Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:33 PM
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GWeb posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:38 PM
Very Nasty Very Bad bad BAD!! shadow. Not all corners r supposed to get AO
Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:38 PM
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Gareee posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:38 PM
is there any render speed difference with any of these settings? Since they all look "good", whichever one renders the fastest might be the choice one. (not sure how much math increases renderspeed)
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
stonemason posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 9:46 PM
nice work Ajax can you make it smaller more subtle?
Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 10:05 PM
GWeb, actually if you take a look at the mathematical procedure behind AO, yes all corners are supposed to get it. That's how the AO algorithm works and it's also one of the reason AO is far from a perfect solution for true radiant lighting. Gareee, Not much difference in speed between the four shaders shown, no. It's just a matter of which noise pattern you like the best. Stonemason, Yep, you can make it smaller and more subtle. The size of the individual dirt grains is controlled with the scale parameters of whichever noise node you use. The density is controlled with the bias parameter on the same node. Controlling how far the dirt extends from the corners is a matter of filtering the AO output through some math nodes.
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Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 11:01 PM
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GWeb posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 11:19 PM
Attached Link: http://www-viz.tamu.edu/students/bmoyer/617/ambocc/
More info on Ambient Occlusion http://www-viz.tamu.edu/students/bmoyer/617/ambocc/Ajax posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 11:53 PM
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stonemason posted Wed, 23 March 2005 at 11:58 PM
get that bump out of the gradient slot!!..lol :) it's a nice effect with the shader,it looks a bit grainy,& obviously made up of dots..is there any way to clean that up?
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 12:23 AM
Attached Link: http://www.metafex.net/cinefex/tutorials/dn/
It's meant to be grainy and made up of dots. It pretty much matches the appearance I was trying for, rather like the grainy dirt you see in the bottom right couple of pictures on the linked page. Those were done with the old C4D DirtyNuts shader. What sort of look did you have in mind? If you've got a pic, I'll see if I can come up with something similar.
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Lawndart posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 12:24 AM
By the title of this thread I thought I was going to have to suggest that you turn on the nudity flag. LOL
stonemason posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 12:44 AM
I'm not sure what I'm looking for,just less apparent dots I guess,can you control the amount of dots?..make it alot more dense but keep the opacity http://www.maxon.net/pages/products/c4d/r85/images/dirt_nodirt.jpg
Xena posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 12:45 AM
I thought he'd been running around the back yard naked again ;P
GWeb posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 12:47 AM
Stonemason Excellent link!! you have made my point acrossed!! Thanks!!!!!
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 12:47 AM
Looks doable. Just a matter of spending lots of time tweaking I think. Let me see what I can do.
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GWeb posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 1:05 AM
My suggestion is to have AO shading interact with property shading for color balancing. I wish I downloaded P6 stead of Box but I want a copy of book and a pretty box hehe.
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 4:02 AM
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GWeb posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 4:24 AM
Top right is better but not satistified. After looking at all of these. AO is not supposed to look dusty. AO is supposed to slight decrease or increase color temperature along with shading.
GWeb posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 4:28 AM
Can you match AO color with the sphere's color shading? I also would like you to make another sample like this but with lighter color in AO setting. GWeb
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 4:43 AM
GWeb, I realise the title of this thread, containing the rather subtle words "dirt shaders", might not have given it away to you, but the whole point of what I'm doing here is to use AO as a means of filling corners with dirt. I had hoped that the very first sentence in this thread ("...it's possible to create shaders that automatically fill nooks and crannies with dirt") might have hinted that, but apparently I was being too obscure. "AO is not supposed to look dusty" Surprisingly enough, DIRT IS SUPPOSED TO LOOK DUSTY! Perhaps I'm still being too subtle, so I'll quote your own words from post 6 back at you: "Very Nasty Very Bad bad BAD!!" If you aren't interested in shaders that look dirty and/or dusty, please do us both a favour and go and find a thread that isn't about dirt shaders.
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Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:25 AM
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Eternl_Knight posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:28 AM
Hehe, now the entire of Poserdom can use the old Ambient occlusion for "dirty shaders" trick Renderman users have had for some time. Good to see we're spreading the love grin I personally like the top left, the top-right is nice for say a "tarnished" look, but the top-left really does the "dirt thing" for me,
Ian Porter posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:49 AM
Ajax, This is outstanding. I agree with Eternl Knight on the dirt effect preferences. I have a couple of questions:- a) Would this work for bump and displacement mapped detail? b) Although not strictly 'dirt', but coming under the heading of 'weathering' would it be possible to use the settings on the ball at top left with a rusty colour, and the settings on the ball at top right as is, at the same time, to create a rusting dirty ball? Cheers Ian
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:49 AM
Yeah, it's something I've wanted to see in the material room for a long time :-) I like the top left too, but I think I like the bottom right just a little better. I actually only put the top right one in as a control. There's almost no dirt in it at all.
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Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:59 AM
Ian, Yep, sure will work for bump and displacement :-) Basically it drives a blender, so you just blend your dirt bump against your clean surface bump. Layering dirt AND rust will make the shader more complex with a bunch more nodes so it will be more difficult to manipulate in the material room and will render slower, but it's certainly doable. In the longer term I'd like to put together some more complex shaders like that. I'm really just playing with my new toy at the moment.
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Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 6:09 AM
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Ian Porter posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 6:35 AM
The head looks great in pewter. Thanks for answering my questions. Can't play until my Wait-Club membership expires .... Ian
stonemason posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 6:40 AM
Ajax..the top 2 are spot on! Cheers Stefan
stewer posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 6:56 AM
I have visions of naked Jessis in very very dirty temples... :D
Mec4D posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 7:49 AM
Ajax, this is outstanding! thanks for sharing!! ----- stewer! lol :P
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Gareee posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:13 AM
can you screen cap the top right settings? That looks like it would be good for victorian ship and vehicle renders. (it'd probably look nice on the martian tripod from Daz, or the Nautilus from Daz as well...)
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
Mec4D posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:17 AM
the top right settings are great! I agree with you Gareee and wish Ajax can share with us the setting too ;)
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"Surrender to what it is - Let go of what was - Have faith in what will be "
bigjobbie posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:21 AM
Ajax - Absolutely bloody brilliant!! I love them ALL - please please please release a "Dirt Pack"!!! Wow!!
Gareee posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:38 AM
Hmm I just had a thought... if you applied negative math nodes, couldn't this be converted to some kinda of highlight lighter spots type of shader setting?
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
Likos posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:41 AM
Can this be used to make a brisk texture look dirty? (Each individual brick, as opposed to only the corners of the mesh) Also please post a screen cap of the settings you used for the balls. Excellent use of the node by the way. Creative use like this could eliminate the use of textures for much of the structures within a scene.
Gareee posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:46 AM
Something that would be really cool in poser, would be adding the ability to "bake" these on textures, and then save those textures. It's using in lightwave all the time to create actual texture maps. Since the P6 material room is really blossoming, that would be a way to "share" the new tech with the older poser version users. Not that I think it'll happen...
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
Ian Porter posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:49 AM
Gareee, I agree fully on the Victorian vehicles, a particular interest of mine. Bring on the rivets, coach-bolts and leaf springs! Ian
Gareee posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:51 AM
Hmmm I'm also wondering, if this was included in a toon render, if it could be used to create a "stipple" drawing effect? Animated, that might be killer!
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
shogakusha posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:52 AM
Ajax, s always, the master of material nodes! This is a great piece of work, thanks fo rsharing! I cannot wait until I have to stop waiting }-) Shogakusha
Gareee posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 8:54 AM
Ah, another thought.. maybe this could be combined with the slime shader as well? I want my P6... >whine
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
Mazak posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 9:00 AM
salvius posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 9:49 AM
Garee: "Hmm I just had a thought... if you applied negative math nodes, couldn't this be converted to some kinda of highlight lighter spots type of shader setting?" Perhaps to simulate the shiny spots on larger bronze statues, where they've been rubbed by the hands of thousands of visiting tourists...?
GWeb posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 11:03 AM
Ajax, Yeah I wasnt interested in dirt shader. I was interested in just the AO shading that interacts the lights. Your method for dirt shader is indeed good ones. GWeb
GWeb posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 11:07 AM
Umm after looking at images and I reviewed AO function. The AO is supposed to be sensitive to the light that may affect the dirt shading. Just thought you might like to know.
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 4:59 PM
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bigjobbie posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:14 PM
God bless your dirty balls sir!
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:25 PM
Can this technique be used to do things like putting shiny spots on exposed surfaces, add speckling to toon shaders, control slime locations when combined with my slime shader, etc? Yes it can. There are some drawbacks however. While the AO algorithm is as good for finding exposed surfaces as it is for finding protected surfaces, the implementation of it in Poser 6 appears to be geared toward protected surfaces. I don't think it can tell the difference between a really exposed bit, like the end of a nose and a moderately exposed bit, like the middle of a forehead. "Can this be used to make a brick texture look dirty? (Each individual brick, as opposed to only the corners of the mesh)" Not really. This approach is really for putting dirt in protected corners. If you just want dirt evenly spattered over each brick, there are ways to do it and they're probably easier than this approach. Texture baking? I wish. I don't expect it to every happen in Poser though. Still, the fact that I can make stuff like this for P6 users makes me very happy. Will there be a dirt pack? Not sure yet, but certainly I'm always storing away shaders and it's probably getting to be time I did some more shader packs. I want to take a look at some of the other new nodes first though. They quietly introduced a bunch of new rate of change variable nodes that look really interesting. I'll have to see what I can do with those. If they work how I think they do, I should be able to use them to colour sharp bits differently from blunt bits. Thanks for the interest, everybody. Enthusiastic people keep me going :-)
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nruddock posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:39 PM
Any ideas for using the new Variable nodes ?
Ajax posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 5:46 PM
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Gareee posted Thu, 24 March 2005 at 9:03 PM
OOO I like that dirty chrome as well.. I think you need to make a pack of the materials you've created already.
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
madmaxh posted Mon, 04 April 2005 at 7:05 PM
Ajax, your big free pack of P5 shaders really helped me solve some problems and taught me a lot. Now this article has me fired up to go make some pristine props really filthy! Many, many thanks! :D
Gareee posted Mon, 04 April 2005 at 9:30 PM
Could you post the material seting for the dirty chrome? I LOVE that!
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
Ajax posted Tue, 05 April 2005 at 9:27 AM
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Gareee posted Tue, 05 April 2005 at 10:13 AM
I had a feeling there would be more to it then just adding reflection like P5. Thanks much for the explanation, and shot! BTw something I thought of this morning.. is there a math setting set that could be used to just remove color saturation from a material setting?
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
stonemason posted Tue, 05 April 2005 at 11:54 AM
Ajax..I tried this today & it worked quite well..how would we go about adding this setting to an already textured object? Stefan
Gareee posted Tue, 05 April 2005 at 12:08 PM
I'm just guessing, but maybe insert a second blender node at the begnning, and have one half of it oint to the texture, and the other half connect to the existing blender2?
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
Ajax posted Tue, 05 April 2005 at 6:40 PM
Gareee, For desaturation, just run your coloured input through a maths node and add 0 to it. That'll convert it to black and white. Stef, Just plug your texture map into input 2 of blender 2 (ie the blender that drives the diffuse colour). You can also use blenders to drive the spec, bump etc if you want. You drive the blending on them with the math functions clamp node, exactly the same way as the blender for diffuse. On each blender input 1 is dirt and input 2 is clean. The principal in the shaders I've shown here is simple when you break it down. There are three groups of nodes in the shader. One group provides colour for the clean areas, one group provides colour for the dirty areas and the final group is the AO that drives the blending between dirty and clean. If you want to add bump (for example) to the mix, it's just a matter of coming up with a group of nodes for clean bump and a group for dirty bump and then blending them with the same AO you already have, then plugging the blend into the bump channel of the root node. You can do that for as many different characteristics as you want (spec, ambience etc), just driving the blend each time with your original AO group.
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Gareee posted Tue, 05 April 2005 at 6:58 PM
That simple, huh? Man, you need a major in math to know what's going on with the nodes.... ;)
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
Eternl_Knight posted Tue, 05 April 2005 at 7:06 PM
Scary thing is Garee, you are almost right. Writing good shaders requires a decent comprehension of mathematical principles. I have coded Renderman shaders and let me tell you - they can become really complex mathematically and code-wise. Poser (or really Firefly) gives us end-users a very good sub-set of Renderman's power with a MUCH easier interface. Trust me, Ajax's skills can come at a decent price in the graphics industry (look up "technical director" roles sometime).
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bookmark ;-))
semidieu posted Thu, 18 August 2005 at 11:27 AM
Really cool dirty shaders ! Very usefull !