If I may... 1) Why the thread lock? Personally, I couldn't care less about style or taste. My intent is to expose the technically inferior products, the ones that don't work as advertised, the ones that fall below even Renderosity's standards of quality assurance. Please don't tell me the PTB are that scared of what I might dig up. Also, your rationale as stated in the thread seems highly tinged with emotion. I sincerely didn't mean to strike any sore nerves with you in particular. Please explain further your reasons, if you would. 2) I had a response in that topic that stated that emotions should have no place when it comes to someone selling goods or services for money, and that I have no problems with any offended merchants defending their products. That post evaporated sometime between posting it at 4pm MDT and 5pm MDT. Any ideas as to what may have happened to it? 3) The DAZ forum mods apparently have no problem with the same topic, posted verbatim in The Commons on their site. Same story with PoserPros. So why do you? Regards, /P

.

We are here to be respectful of each member here and that includes the merchants. It is very disrrespectful to throw something like this in their face. There might be a problem with a product the merchant wasn't aware of and hadn't had a chance to fix. Not all people report problems, so to bash a merchant is unfair this should be handled in private between the merchant and the buyer. If you have a problem with me you can email Stacey at staceyG@renderosity.com or any other admin for that matter. SndCastie Community Admin.

Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things

SndCastie's Little Haven

I think it's pretty bloody disrespectful to sell things that are under par. If I buy a knife, and it turns out to be made out of sub-quality metal, I don't shut up and swallow it because I might harm the merchant's feelings. If you're going to run a business, run a business, but if you're here to stroke the egos of the merchants at the expense of consumers, then please, let people know beforehand so we can be aware that our concerns matter less than keeping Mr-30-differently-colorized-versions-of-the-same-texture happy. I don't see how it's disrespectful to keep an eye open for products that aren't as advertised or are broken - what if the merchant only finds out because of a consumer report like what /P is suggesting? I doubt seriously that he is suggesting that merchants have no say, or that they be ambushed with it. If people can criticize Daz3d or CuriousLabs on here for problems with their products, why are these individual merchants immune?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "the ones that don't work as advertised, the ones that fall below even Renderosity's standards of quality assurance." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- not to answer for anyone but as a merchant I can tell you that products that "Dont work as advertised" do not get approved for sale in the RMP. if I upload a conforming leather jacket for the Daz freak and it does not conform it will fail testing. period. so you are left with people personal subjective opinions about and biased value judgements as to weather THEY think merchant X is selling a good product. or who's stuff "sucks". Then there are the types of buyers who dont RTFM and immediately start a damaging public thread about someone product being a rip off before even contacting the merchant from who they purchased it. remember that fellow who accused a merchant of "false advertising" because he( the buyer) was too GODDAMN LAZY!!!! to learn how to use poser4 lighting. the same way the merchant used poser4 lighting to show renders of his texture package. such a thread as the one you started would quickly degenerate into a free for all, replete with personal agendas and "Clique" based partisan,rancor and animosity. this would serve no constructive purpose. IMHO ;-) the RMP has a system in place to protect buyers from defective products and to enable mature adults to make responsible purchasing decisions .

My website

YouTube Channel

Peng, my suggestion is that we should avoid having threads which encourage people to attack or shame merchants. It's a potentially explosive situation, since it exposes the site to possible charges of libel or unfair trade practices. It implies a kind of mob rule that might occur elsewhere, but not here, I hope.

I don't think I have ever seen a site where people are so afraid of information as the folks here at R'osity...both the PTB and many of the members.

Heaven forbid any kind of consumer information be allowed.

R'osity is not opening themselves up to anything by /P posting information he receives privately on HIS webpage which is how his request was worded. He requested people send him the information PRIVATELY not make some kind of big deal on the various forums.

Have you people never heard/read Consumer Reports type magazines before making a real life type purchase??

The knee jerk reactions here boggle the mind.

The "the RMP has a system in place to protect buyers from
defective products and to enable mature adults to make
responsible purchasing decisions" is also sort of a misnomer because nothing negative is allowed in those reviews..only postive/happy stuff is allowed. Anything negative even if it is phrased in an appropriate manner is deleted.

This is just one of the many, many (ever growing list of) reasons I will not shop at R'osity.

As a member of the frequent buyer club, I'll admit freely that a good deal of the time the reason a product doesn't work for me is because I failed to use it correctly. This probably only happens to me...but there you go. However, when it isn't my fault, I can't remember a time when I bought something here that the merchant didn't make a huge effort to make me happy, even when the problem was my fault. When the problem was with the item, an updated pack (available to everyone) was usually issued soon after which shows, to me, responsivieness from the merchant. I have only been treated rudely by one merchant, and I will simply never buy from that merchant again. They are very successful without me and I am very happy not to have to deal with them. No public flames exchanged. And sometimes it is in the eye of the beholder. Something you may not have any use for may be exactly what I am looking for. I think it is always best to work with the Marketplace staff and the merchant BEFORE embarressing a merchant in public. Give them a chance to fix the problem. I believe that when there are fundamental problems with a product, the product is pulled from the Marketplace and a refund or credit is issued to people who purchase it. It is not in the best interest of the merchants not to make the customers happy when it is possible to do so (just as there are rude merchants, there do exist impossible customers). I agree with wolf359. It seems like an excuse to have a flame fest to me.

I have to agree with SndCastie on this one. If you have a problem with a product, take it up with the merchant privately rather than attempt a public lynching. If you can't get satisfaction from the merchant, take it up with the Marketplace.

wolf - you would think that wouldn't you? But I have had a long heated issue in regards to a specific merchant's products that didn't work correctly for me or others who used it. the staff here ignored it and passd it. When I complained they made excuses, when I contacted teh broker I was ignored, when I took it public I was attacked with attempts to discredit me by the broker and basically told I wasn't very bright by the staff member in question. (uhm, I've been doing this a loooong time and I had never previously complained about a product nor do I have a reputation that lends towards that behaviour). Result? After others looked at it (including modellers) - it was indeed broken. I had to get Clint involved to look at it. The product was eventually fixed (although many buyers were not informed of that). As for the issues with the other product from the same merchant (geometries outside teh geometry folder will cause weirdness in some P4 programs), as far as I know it was never fixed. Mateo - public awareness is not unfair trade practices - however covering up and making excuses could be seen as encouraging fraud... IF however Peng intends to actually look into the products in question it does not become a witch hunt - obviously if things are mentioned in the advertising and a buyer is lazy that product wouldn't have an issue. But as merchants we do put ourselves at risk of having people post "gawd! did you see that last product form LSM? It was total crap, mat poses didn't apply and there wear horrible seams!". That's the way life works in any retail business - a creator can be made or broken by word or mouth.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

SndCastie: "There might be a problem with a product the merchant wasn't aware of and hadn't had a chance to fix." Err, far be it from me to step out of line or anything, but, umm... isn't that what the RMP testers are supposed to be paid to do? You know, find that sort of stuff before it gets released? "...so to bash a merchant is unfair" As stated by Yours Truly @ the DAZ fora: " Sorry, but I don't see too many folks out there showing sympathy for Microsoft whenever a major virus hits, nor do I see anyone patting Ford's CEO on the head and saying "it's okay... we know you meant well" whenever a major product recall hits. There is a complete lack of spiritual love and forgiveness for the makers of Vioxx right now as well... go figure. " The merchants are ostensibly businesspeople, not kindergartenders on their very first trip to the zoo. The absolute last thing that should be around any monetary transaction is the feelings and sensibilities of a merchant. Are the merchants around here that sensitive that they fear even the slightest criticisms? Why? (and more importantly, why on Earth are they in business if they are?) /P

Why did y'all just shove the original thread down the Renderosity Memory Hole?

/P

(edit to squish the typo fairy)

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 20:42

Penguinisto, The testers are human and there are times that problems are not found. No one is perfect and this does happen from time to time. I am sure you are well aware that everything doesn't go perfectly 100% of the time. Sandy explained that the thread you posted was not appropriate for our site and it was moved out of the community at our discretion. We have explained our reasons why we felt it was not appropriate, the thread was locked and moved and now lets move on. Thank you, Stacey Community Manager

So that's it, then? Cover it all up and hope it goes away? "I am sure you are well aware that everything doesn't go perfectly 100% of the time." Ma'am, you're missing the point here: Judging by the pile of messages and emails I've been swimming through this afternoon, I get the rather strong impression that the testers aren't even matching Pete Rose's batting average, let alone anything as stratospheric as 100%. I'll shut up and be a good little boy on your website as you've requested, but rest assured that I'm only pointing out the problem, not causing it. It won't go away just because I shut up about it on this specific site, or just because you shove the whole thing down the ol' Memory Hole and assert that it's time for everyone to move on. Just keep something in mind, befoer you affix my name to the long (but somehow semi-distinguished) troublemakers' list: If I didn't give a damn, I wouldn't bother to point any of this out. /P

Going to a merchant privately or the Marketplace staff here if you find a problem with a product is one thing. Starting a thread publically that could potentially damage a decent persons reputation is quite another. I can't understand how doing things the way you've chosen to rather than contacting that particuliar merchant privately and giving them a chance to make things right, fix the product, etc. is helpful or beneficial to anyone. Considering the number of products in our Marketplace and factoring in the number of products that fail testing, our testers do an outstanding job. I didn't say anything about 100%, I think what I said was no one is perfect and cannot catch every problem. Stacey

Hi Penguinisto, The Renderosity MarketPlace has a Product Review system in place that allows customers to rate products and leave a text based review. We prefer to have MarketPlace customers use our review system to provide feedback for future customers as well as the merchants. The review system is available to everyone that has purchased products at Renderosity. This also allows my staff to find out if there are any problems with products that may have been missed by the merchants beta testers and/or my staff of final product testers. I hope this helps you understand the way our product review system works for the customers, merchants as well as the MarketPlace staff. Regards, Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

---

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

---

"Sorry, but I don't see too many folks out there
showing sympathy for Microsoft whenever a major
virus hits, nor do I see anyone patting Ford's
CEO on the head"

Pardon me but anyone who is remotetly familiar with the term
"economy of scale" should realize that telling a renderosity "merchant"
to suck it up and take it like the other mutli-billion dollar Corporations,
and thier massive PR departments
is well.... a bit unrealistic :-).

"Are the merchants around here that sensitive that they
fear even the slightest criticisms? Why?"

Well I wasnt going to say this but now I will
be very frank:
We Do have a legitimate concern of the sometimes "Lynchmob" mentality
of a small Vocal minority here at the rosity forums.

Case in point:

On the eve of the release of poser6 with
the "winter queen" package,
Someone Asserted in a thread (quite gratuitously) that the wings
of the winterqueen "looked like" they were stolen
from some other guys "wing package"

before you could say "read new messages"
there were Copyright "activists"
posting completely unfounded demands that Curious Labs..
Pardon me CURIOUS LABS.. the makers of poser,
prove that they are not model theives
someone from CL finally took time,
from what im sure was a busy schedual.,
to state the wings were modeled in Maya By CL.

*" Judging by the pile of messages and emails I've beenswimming through this afternoon, I get the rather strong impression"

Well if I may be even more Frank with you,
If you want to present yourself as a credible
consumer advocate giving objective product reviews,
you should at the very least personally buy ,install
and test every product that you review yourself

Yather than write "reviews" based on Dubious,anonymous Claims made by others who's agendas may not be readily apparent :-). Message edited on: 04/26/2005 21:36

My website

YouTube Channel

My advice -- take it or leave it:

I'd.......sorta be inclined to let this one drop.

It's a guaranteed war in the making if I ever saw one.

It'll make some friends, true.

But it also carries the potential to create a whole pile of enemies along the way.

---

I think that you've got good motives here.

But in a relatively tiny community like this one -- where gossip spreads like wildfire, and where people tend to hold long-term grudges -- I'd let it settle out.

Once again: my advice.

Personally, I wouldn't care for the grief that's sure to follow negative reviews of a given merchant's stuff.

Like I said in the other thread -- in a situation like that: people will choose up sides with their buddies.....and then they will go to bloody war with each other.

Frankly, I don't see any good coming out of such a scenario. Or at least: I would say that the potential for very bad results outweighs any good that might be done.

But you answer only to yourself.

Please note: this post is well-intended. As I believe that you are well-intentioned in proposing such a product review system.

BTW -- if you decide to go ahead with doing reviews, then rather than taking a "Name 'em and Shame 'em" type of approach -- I'd recommend doing reviews in general -- I.E. -- praiseworthy positive reviews as well as negative ones.

Give it a sense of balance.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Um....I buy a lot of products from here, and I've never had anything not work properly, though I have had a couple of outfit textures I couldn't figure out how to make work properly (set with Cameras instead of Pose files)...but after reading the readme file included, I was all set.

I don't think I've ever bought an RMP product that wasn't as advertised, nor have I bought one that I'd consider inferior.

As a merchant, I'd want buyers to let me know personally if they had a problem...but I know the testing is pretty darn thorough, as it has caught mistakes in my products before they were approved for sale.

Thanks to the testers, I've yet to have a complaint on my products...at least not one that I've been made aware of, and that's in what...about 2 years of selling here?

=)

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 22:15

ebots come to me

"The testers are human and there are times that problems are not found. No one is perfect and this does happen from time to time. I am sure you are well aware that everything doesn't go perfectly 100% of the time." - StaceyG

Followed by:

"I didn't say anything about 100%, I think what I said was no one is perfect and cannot catch every problem." - StaceyG

Actually, why yes you did. It's up there in cream and white in Post #13.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Peng. This is really, really, poor taste man. On that blathering web site it says you teach Network Administration. So if I were to treat you the way you are treating merchants. I guess what I'd have to do is sit in on one of your classes. Take notes. Then come here and rave about all the mistakes you made teaching your classes. There's no difference. If people want to buy things that aren't perfect. That's their business. As long as the problems aren't hidden from view it's not your place to crusade against them. If your faculty and students allow you to teach Network Administration by spending little or no time on IP protocols and more time on Network security procedures. Just making this up as an example. It's not my place to go to a public web site and crusade against your teaching abilities. I know you're just trying to help the community in general. But man you gotta see how it looks from out here. It came out looking really ugly and hostile. What goes around comes around. My advice is to duck. ;-) -ScottA

but..but..but..he's NOT coming here to post his findings, people. :)

"It'll make some friends, true. But it also carries the potential to create a whole pile of enemies along the way." - Xenophonz

I don't disagree with you Xeno - this is a "room full of gas fumes" and a match topic. ;] But it carries the potential to make enemies of all the right people. Wah.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

But it carries the potential to make enemies of all the right people.

shrug

Right or wrong -- not my call to make.

But I see the potential for harm here.

Sometimes, discretion truly is the better part of valor.

this is a "room full of gas fumes" and a match topic.

Yep.

And fireworks displays are a lot of fun to watch, eh?

Except when it's one's own house that's burning down.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

That's the thing about fire -- Give it it's freedom, and there's no telling where it'll go.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"So if I were to treat you the way you are treating merchants. I guess what I'd have to do is sit in on one of your classes. Take notes. Then come here and rave about all the mistakes you made teaching your classes." I already get evaluations by my students at the end of each course. I get both the good and the bad, since the surveys are anonymous to faculty. I enjoy the good, but mroe importantly, I study the bad and work to correct it. There is an astounding lack of the latter in and about Poserdom these days. "Well if I may be even more Frank with you, If you want to present yourself as a credible consumer advocate giving objective product reviews, you should at the very least personally buy ,install and test every product that you review yourself " Funny you should mention that; if a given complaint isn't readily apparent but still merits further investigation, I may just end up doing that... a lot. I have an empty P6 Runtime and nothing better for it to do, since all the good stuff still sits in my P5 external Runtime. But, I want you to notice something... the items I pointed out thus far (mostly out of frustration that everyone screams "quality!" when there are such obvious lacks of same about), those items didn't even require a purchase... the promo renders were enough to tell the story for all to see, and damnit, that's truly sad. I have a feeling that there's a whole lot more of such examples floating about the place (and quite a few others) if I dig deep enough, and I now have lots of leads from which to start looking. If what I've said so far today scares the PTB at various sites into actually auditing what they have 'on the shelves', and weeding out the more obvious crap for fear that I may find it before they do, then something positive has already happened IMHO. So what's this all about? Well, I intend on sitting down and working up a series of criteria from which to figure this whole thing out first. I've gotten lots of good ideas of what to do with this mess from folks in lots of other places - ideas that I really want to put into action and put to work (you know, places that haven't shut down the thread out of immediate knee-jerk reaction and incinerated the thing for fear that someone, somewhere may accidentally see it?) For now, I'll sit back and gather information (and even some damned good analysis) to assemble into something that my brain can chew on for a bit. Then, I can start putting something together that might actually make a worthwhile and even positive difference in improving what's being done in and about Poserdom. Sure beats the hell out of sitting back with the popcorn crowd, watching the whole thing slowly suffocate on this incestuous gas of make-nicey mediocrity that seems to be creeping into the air of late. So, does this mean that I get to be a total asshole? 'course not... there has to be something useful about it, since anyone can just point and sneer. Lord knows there's enough out there to sneer at these days... and the really sad part is, very few in Poserdom will argue against even that statement. OTOH, it might require a few bruised egoes, an increase in tutorials and tips for those who didn't get pointed at and analyzed as examples, and it'll require more than a couple of slaughtered sacred cows. Why? to show that hey, maybe there ought to be some standards re-set by the stores. Maybe there ought to be more efforts made by the PTB towards having good merchants (as well as the PTB itself) help out the aspiring ones, and just maybe, we ought to be less concerned about a 'sehwwer's widdle feewings', and be more concerned about improving the merchant group as a whole so that everyone benefits in the end. Is that too much to ask, or have we already sunk too deep into the septic tank to pull ourselves out? I Blather, You Decide... ;) /P

I wish you the best with this endeavor.

Who knows? You might even become the Poser version of "Consumer Reports".

nudges the guy sitting in the folding theater seat next to mine -- could you please pass the popcorn?

To be perfectly frank -- I'd rather watch this movie than be in it.

---

I'd tackle these issues more intensely -- but like Mycroft Holmes (the elder brother of Sherlock) -- I'm lazy.

I like it. Things are usually quiet.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

All the best, my friend. Sincerely.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"And fireworks displays are a lot of fun to watch, eh?"

shrug Not disagreeing with you on that - they are fun to watch. But I'm finding it fascinating that I'm watching Pengy's origional thread at two other sites, plus a discussion on it at my own that includes two or more store admins...

And 1) it's not heated, 2) No fireworks, 3) no flame wars, 4) no one is being "named and shamed", and 5, no admins - including Daz3D's - have found it neccessary to lock it or send it to coordinator hell.

Except for here.

That's downright interesting.

Considering the way those discussion are going, safe to say that Peng will probably make some modifications in the concept, and it'll turn into a useful thing long term for both the brokerages and customers. Nothing useful in this community happens without a few fireworks, anyway. ;)

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Wolf wrote: "if I upload a conforming leather jacket for the Daz freak and it does not conform it will fail testing. period." LSM wrote: "But I have had a long heated issue in regards to a specific merchant's products that didn't work correctly for me or others who used it. the staff here ignored it and passd it. When I complained they made excuses, when I contacted teh broker I was ignored, when I took it public I was attacked with attempts to discredit me by the broker and basically told I wasn't very bright by the staff member in question." StaceyG wrote: "The testers are human and there are times that problems are not found. No one is perfect and this does happen from time to time. I am sure you are well aware that everything doesn't go perfectly 100% of the time." Wolf, seems like your statement about it not passing testing wasn't exactly accurate eh? Clint wrote: "Hi Penguinisto, The Renderosity MarketPlace has a Product Review system in place that allows customers to rate products and leave a text based review." So Clint, if I buy a product and its broken(lets say it has issues with the mesh or visable seams in the texture for instance) I can write a product review stating that the product sucks and you'd be a fool to waste your money on a terrible peice of crap? I highly doubt that. Ive read many reviews here at Rosity and can't remember one that was of a critical nature.Why is that Clint? Rowan Crisp wrote: "If people can criticize Daz3d or CuriousLabs on here for problems with their products, why are these individual merchants immune? " Damn straight! Your right about that. :) StaceyG wrote: "Sandy explained that the thread you posted was not appropriate for our site and it was moved out of the community at our discretion." Its really funny that this site is the only site that had a problem with the post. I'm sure that the admin at other sites would have prefered the post just go away, but guess what? They didn't lock it and then MAKE it go away. Hmmmmmmmm whats Romart hiding that the other sites aren't? So discussing a way to expose inferior products and improve the overall quality of the marketplace is not appropriate for Rosity, but it is for PP's, DAZ, the Commune, etc. Why am I not surprised by this? Pengy wrote: "Are the merchants around here that sensitive that they fear even the slightest criticisms? Why? (and more importantly, why on Earth are they in business if they are?)" From the above postings I guess the answer to that would be YES, they are too sensitive and fear the slightest criticism. Imagine that eh? :)

Ironbear wrote: "Except for here. That's downright interesting" That IS interesting isn't it?

" Ironbear wrote:
"Except for here.

That's downright interesting"

That IS interesting isn't it?" -Spiritbro77

There's a simple answer... those other forums are full of cold blooded, soulless kitten-stompers...

Elgen wrote: "There's a simple answer... those other forums are full of cold blooded, soulless kitten-stompers... " Hey now, I resemble that remark :)

Penguinisto, I took the time to read your DAZ post and followed it to the post on your site where I read the entire article. I'll admit that I found it funny, but for the most part it just came across as a slam at some folks trying to make some honest money. I didn't see any technical critique of individual products, but then again perhaps "New York crack whore" is your idea of a technical critique. The products you direct linked to, maybe they are bad, but we'll never know what's wrong with them in the review you gave. Maybe the merchant who made the "New York crack whore" just doesn't have what it takes to do stunning render, but the texture in the hands of a more skillful member my be quite beautiful. As for moaning about the fact that someone has tweaked colour in a single texture to come up with multiple textures, big deal! What's wrong with doing that? They took the time to do it and if you don't like it, don't buy it. But if there's nothing technically nothing wrong with it don't just take a shot at it. It just looks like you're jealous that you didn't do it first. Sometimes in product testing there does appear to be nothing whong with a product. It may be tested by a dozen people before it even gets tested here, and no one picks up a fault as simple as a thumbnail that doesn't appear for some reason. Then one day someone buys the product and on their machine this thumbnail is missing and there's no real reason for it. That's happened to me. Product passed testing, I had it tested by other members of various sites, it sells without a hitch for 6 months and then oneday I get an email about a missing thumbnail. To be honest, I don't even know how I fixed the problem for that user, because all I did was send them exactly the same file that was uploaded to the store, and this time there were no problems. Maybe just something in the extraction. I guess my point is this. Critique and honest technical review is fine, I welcome it as a merchant, but don't just take shots at people in an article, for what seems like nothing more than they gave being a merchant a go.

Problem with this is Penguinisto did not test these products or even purchase them. Saying that a product is inferior without knowing the intent when the product was created, and not having purchased it (at least in my case) is not only unfair, but also in very poor taste.

Yes, one of my products was one that was linked to and I take great offense because this product was totally misrepresented. This is not the usual type of product I create, these sets were requests and we done for a very good and loyal customer.

If you were talking about products that had seams, did not work properly, miscoded files, wrong version errors, had holes in the mesh and on and on, that the merchant refused to fix, or misrepresented the product in the previews, then I could see the gripe. I feel though it is in very bad taste to criticize anyone in a public forum, and felt so when I first saw your post at 3DC.

You seem to feel that people just slap things together and put a price tag on them and upload them to make money. I work with these merchants/vendors every day and I can tell you "most" put their heart and soul into each product they do. The ones that do not are the exception rather than the rule.

Rather than your picking products that happen to not meet your personal tastes, maybe you should try and get feedback from others about products that are TRULY a problem and get verification from more than one source before you openly bash a merchant. It is laughable to slam someone for doing something (even if it is not to your liking) that you do not have the courage to do yourself!

As long as my product stays in your links, I plan on taking full advantage of it... and I do have to say shame on your for trying to acheive your glory by bashing others rather than working to create something that will make you shine for your own creativity!

Touchy merchant, yea...lol... probably, but I work darn hard, 18 + hours a day. I devote every day to the 3d communiity, I would request you take a look at all of the products in my store, and you will see that this set is not what I normally create, but had a purpose.

I will not defend what I do, or what I choose to create because everything I do I give my all, and I am VERY good at what I do! I do defend my right to do it though. There is nothing technically wrong with that set. All textures are high resolution. They are designed to look painted, "toonish". All meshes are created crooked and with a juvenile feel due to the nature of the set. I truly feel you misjudged it and that is what I take offense at...

Message edited on: 04/27/2005 04:29

Message edited on: 04/27/2005 04:30

takes off coord hat I, for one, am glad that the post was deleted. THIS is the only community where Penguinisto's post would have turned into a "slam the merchants" fest, and fast. I won't chime into the discussion on other sites, due to the fact that I am on staff here, but I will chime in here. I find the original presentation of the idea distasteful. Penguinisto, after you were presented with other ideas from members on other sites, you did clarify your intentions, and I respect that. I think that a good 90% of the backlash that you've gotten may have to do with the title and original representation of the idea, coupled with the way you ridiculed 3 items in your blather. That may or may not have been your intention, and I can't and won't speak for you and/or read your mind. I will, however, say that IF you choose to go forward with this in a professional manner, all the best to you. But, if you decide to review products and belittle the creator, I'm sorry, but that's a really low blow. Many people are "just starting out". Sure, not everyone has freebies. But, last I checked, it's not a prerequisite. Sure, it helps. It also helps to look at someone's gallery and see if they use their own products, and how they use them. Like I said, I wish you the best, and, should you go forward with your reviews, I hope you keep it professional, and keep your tongue firmly in your cheek. I enjoy your humour, but product reviews are one place where humor isn't always a good thing. Jeni

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

"There's a simple answer... those other forums are full of cold blooded, soulless kitten-stompers..." - elgeneralissimo

Vile slanderer! I do not stomp kittens. Forumites, on the other hand... ;)

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

" Problem with this is Penguinisto did not test these products or even purchase them. Saying that a product is inferior without knowing the intent when the product was created, and not having purchased it (at least in my case) is not only unfair, but also in very poor taste." Thank you!!! thats my only issue here He can Blather all he wants on his personal website If he Does not test the product himself like any credible self proclaimed "consumer reporter" He should at least have the courage toNAME the NAME'S of the alleged "buyers" from whom he is getting is "reports" So we can investigate THIER history in the forums to see what stand they took on the CHILD NUDITY issue compared to the merchant they are slamming. or what political party they supported in the last elections compared to the merchant they are slamming. so merchants can have an equal chance to "Name & shame" their critics you see how much "fun" this could be :-)

My website

YouTube Channel

***So we can investigate THIER history in the forums to see what stand they took on the CHILD NUDITY issue compared to the merchant they are slamming. or what political party they supported in the last elections compared to the merchant they are slamming. so merchants can have an equal chance to "Name & shame" their critics *** Oh yes, and their skin colour and their sexual orientation and their religious beliefs and whether they've ever posted an image to the galleries because that's SO Friggin important isn't it? Oh, how about whether they've had sex, or what food they eat? Damn, are they a carnivore? Do they drive a car, that's contemptible, what about their stance on the environment, Oh wait. what about their weight and personal hygiene. How about their employment record too? Anything else? Jeez talk about rampant stupidity. And you accuse Pengy? Damn boy, you need an enema.

"Clint wrote: "Hi Penguinisto, The Renderosity MarketPlace has a Product Review system in place that allows customers to rate products and leave a text based review." So Clint, if I buy a product and its broken(lets say it has issues with the mesh or visable seams in the texture for instance) I can write a product review stating that the product sucks and you'd be a fool to waste your money on a terrible peice of crap? I highly doubt that. Ive read many reviews here at Rosity and can't remember one that was of a critical nature.Why is that Clint?" The review would need to be stated in tactful manner. Typicaly this would result in a refund for the customer or a product update. We pull products from the MarketPlace as needed if functional problems are found. The merchants can correct the problem and offer a free update to the customers. If the customer takes a refund the review is removed however the problem will still be addressed by my staff with the merchant. The problem will be fixed or the product will be removed from the MarketPlace. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

---

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

---

"Damn boy, you need an enema." snicker

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

"Damn boy, you need an enema." Citizen, thats quiet whoosshing sound and slight breeze you just felt over your head was my point :-) that being: second hand product reviews based on anonymous unnamed sources will and should be considered gratuitous. product reports that also identify the Disgruntled/unsatisfied buyer by Name WILL result in ugly counter accusations Legtimate and not, to question the motives of the person making the "report". its a lose ,lose situation for pengiusto in the this volatile little "community" that will only place him at the center of yet another ugly poser contraversy. but alas he will post his "product review "blather" full of sound and fury and in the end it will signify NOTHING for the within a month or so there will be a new SR for poser6 or DAZ studio version1 or Vicky 3 pro etc. etc. and the forums will have moved on the next big issue and no one will care what your sexual preferences are Citizen or what you choose to insert in your anus :-)

My website

YouTube Channel

looks in

Yeah.....it's going exactly where I knew that it would.

Oh, well......just another typical day in Poserland.

---

"Another day, another dollar?"

Nahhh. "Another day, another friendly forum tea party."

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

" looks in Yeah.....it's going exactly where I knew that it would. Oh, well......just another typical day in Poserland." Too true XENO.. too true :-)

My website

YouTube Channel

Something went over someone's head, wolf. And it wasn't Q's. You just managed - twice - to do something I didn't think was humanly possible: you made blogroaches look intelligent.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Okay, Wolfie. Come take a shot at me. I've tested products on sale here, that I've had to reject due to things such as body part collision in poses, Textures not loading correctly etc... All products that have PASSED standards here. FYI: 1) I'm against the Blacklist idea for personal reasons. 2) I think you are being inflammatory and I am surprised that the moderators haven't done anyting about it at all. The fact that you had to go on a highly immature rant and question someone as you have indicates to me you are just spoiling for a fight.

Natolii,... why??
if you have personally tested products and found
problems then you have the credibility to say so
being that your reveiw is based on first hand information
in my view.

More power to you

Iron Bear & Questor
personal attacks on Me may make you feel smarter/clever
I suppose :-)
but Does it really discredit the view that
Peng's approch to this will Cause any usefull product info
to be buried in the quagmire of a partisan forum wars that
will suredly result from his qutoing unnamed sources
on products he has not installed and tested himself like
Natoli Has??
NO ONEcan stop himfrom doing his thing on his website
but IMHO he should do it with full discolsure

Name the Names
any of his sources who do not have agendas
wont have any thing to worry about right :-)

Message edited on: 04/27/2005 09:04

My website

YouTube Channel

Ahhh, But Wolfie, you don't have the right to demand anything with the tirades you are pulling. Instead of presenting why you disagree with this you immediately demanded information such as stance on child nudity... In other words, as Ironbear and Questor have pointed out, you are the one that is acting in an immature fashion. You comments are highly inflammatory, and seriously need to be examined under forum TOS. Given the issues that I and other consumers have faced when purchasing products here, there are no few of us that feel a need for some form of review system, other than the highly unreliable "Critical Depth." What type of system is under debate. Full disclosure, eh? Not a chance, my dear. But then you have no right to make such demands.

ScottA wrote: "If people want to buy things that aren't perfect. That's their business. As long as the problems aren't hidden from view it's not your place to crusade against them.: Is that an assumption that folks who shop here don't really care whether or not what they spend their hard earned money on is top notch? I would never, never, ever dream of buying anything....unless an antique, or yard sale item that was not perfect. would you buy a new hard drive with bad sectors, a new car with flat tires or tranny problems, a dress or pair of pants with mismatched seams, etc., etc., etc.? this makes no sense to me. how many of you actually don't expect perfection from what you are buying in the mp at the time you plop down the old credit card?

As a consumer, I look for things that I can use or that grab my attention. Of the items that Pengy posted, I only disagree with one (being ExtremeTheme's item). The one described at a "NY crack whore", well let me put this in more reasonable terms. Based on the promo renders (which are your main advertising), I find no discernable reason to purchase this item. I find the eyes are overly large on the face and the proportion of the body to be unrealistic and not what I am looking in a character pack. I find larger then normal breast to be deformed and the fact that they are disign with no thought of how gravity effects such things. For the other one, as someone that took nursing in High School, one of the required courses is Anatomy & Physiology. Suffice to say, give my background and given teh promo render presentation, I can plainly see this model is anatomically incorrect. Now given that I do nudes on occassion, this factor makes this item useless to me as well. In short, Promo renders make or break an item...

Wolf: ROTFLMAO! Damn... and you accuse me of stumbling into a thornbush? ;) BTW folks, in the cases shown thus far, if a product shows blatant flaws right there in the promo render, there's really no need to waste the money, now is there? Let's pull up that woman with her textured-on vagina slid-up completely out of place... why on Earth would I have to waste my money on it when I can see the problem right there in the promo render? Now, ask yourself what folks who have genkits or genital morphs on their figures are supposed to do with that, or what folks who want to spend at least a little bit of time on making a realistic-looking figure are supposed to do w/ it... How about the second female figure...why on earth would I have to purchase a product advertised as a "glamor girl", when the promo render shows breast morphs don't even look human, and the eyes look 40x larger than any normal human eyes should (and for a non-anime human figure built to "high quality standards"? WTF, 'mano?) ...the third item is a rather common complaint, and again, the promo renders show it. I can certainly understand a lot of bruised egoes in that department though, because it's so damned common to do it. Now MAB @ the DAZ fora brought up a very good point... but in her case, she actually 1) took the time and paid attention to re-coloring each texture, and 2) didn't try to pawn the lot off onto the public as a set of different textures. In these three exceptional cases, it's rather obvious, and while the third is certainly open for debate, the first two really ought to get a tester or two reprimanded. And don't you worry... there's lots of other sites where similar conditions exist. My job is to verify which is which now (and which are not), and then go about tearing them down in a way that, for lack of a better term, makes sense. "That may or may not have been your intention, and I can't and won't speak for you and/or read your mind." Well, in case you're curious, everything is going as I expected it would thus far. A lot of the lesser merchants got defensive and shrill, mods got nervous in degrees, some folks (including some merchants) cheered, other folks contributed wonderful ideas as to how to go about this whole thing, and Sean got to nurse his grudge a little (evil grin)... (that last part was just bonus, because yes, I'm a noecon asshole and it drives him nuts. but I'll stop that tangent before it gets too far off course... :) ) Most importantly though, I got something even more valuable out of the whole thing: I get to gauge customer dissatisfaction, and accumulate a mountain of raw material from which to do something about it. Everyone who got to read the discussions got something valuable too, though I'm loathe to say it because the term is so damned abused: raised awareness of a problem that everyone knows about, but no one really wants to talk about. Now, I get the task of actually doing something with it all.It'll be work, but I think it'll be fun... and hopefully it'll be useful. One final thing, though: Morriganshadow wrote "THIS is the only community where Penguinisto's post would have turned into a "slam the merchants" fest, and fast." ...you know? I honestly don't say this out of malice, but it really needs to be said: It's pretty sad when the PTB actually have that large of a credible fear of complaints against their own brokered products. Maybe instead of cringing whenever someone brings it up, perhaps a bit of overhauling QA is in order? /P

Cross-posted with Pengy, but in essence two people saying the same thing. Both coming from different propspectives.

We are not afraid of or fear complaint's against our merchants we are respectful of our members. I am not a merchant here but I am a member here. As Clint has stated we have our own review of products here for just this perpose and lets face it not everyone likes the same things. There are beginners in all area's of this community and how are they going to learn with out the help of others. But to blatently slam their products in public is not the way to go. Maybe the product doesn't meet your standards but it meets my needs who is to say it is not to standard. If there is a flaw then the merchant should be notified to be given the chance to fix it. If the merchant doesn't respond then you go to the next step in the ladder which is the marketplace. There are steps to follow in all walks of life believe me I know I work for one of the largest retailers in the world and I have to deal with irate customers everyday. SndCastie Community Admin

Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things

SndCastie's Little Haven

Just to clarify....I'm only a coordinator. I have nothing to do with the MP or Q&A here. All I can say is, it was going downhill, and fast. In other communities, there was more discussion before laying into merchants. I can understand frustration, but like it's been said before, if you don't like the promo render, don't buy the product. If the product is "crap" after you've bought it, contact the merchant or the Store Staff. But, like I said, if you're wanting to do a true review of items, more power to you, and Good Luck. MS

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

"My job is to verify which is which now (and which are not), and then go about tearing them down in a way that, for lack of a better term, makes sense." your job? I gotta ask. who gave you the job? a burning bush? a voice from above? the pope? a face in your coffee? a memo thrown from a woman in a lake? royal appointment? a conclave of wizards? order of the roman emperor cesar? ......?

Thank you Natolii :-) What really gets me, is that the major percentage of my sales are from my scene props, which sell very, very well. I have received countless compliments on how easy they are to use, how realistic the various effects, and how detailed the textures.

Bottom line is, this one product is not going to make me or break me. I have a brand new grandbaby and a son with serious medical problems right now as well as working 100+ hours a week. I don't have time for this nonsense. Easiest thing for me to do is delete the darn thing and be done with it, even though I defend my right to make it.

Yea I have worked for years to build a reputation in the online stores, and yes, this burns me up to be attacked for no reason other than I did a "toonish" set... but honestly, I cannot afford to have my reputation smeared. This is my living, and what feeds my kids, so being attacked IS hurtful, and following these threads is taking away from much more important things that need doing...

I see the crap out there, and defend anyones right to make whatever they choose. But what may be crap to one person could be just what another is looking for. I look at the top selling stuff at all the stores and sometimes for the life of me cannot see where it holds it's appeal, but then that may just not be my "thing"... it doesn't mean that product is lousey just becuase it does not happen to appeal to my tastes. The job of the testers is to be sure the product is functional and without errors, and most importantly that the promos are a TRUE representation of what the product is. What you see is what you get. If it is, then people can see what they are being offered, and if they can see what the product is, then where is it hurting anyone? If they do not like it, they do not have to buy. Everyone has to start somewhere, and no merchants first products will ever be what they will a year or 2 down the line, and when they do not sell this or that product, they learn as they go on what people are looking for.

The way you are poking fun at people is not constructive, it is not helpful... it is simply for your enjoyment and the entertainment of those who enjoy reading your blathering, but I can tell you, for as many people as you may have gained from your recent topic, you have lost as many to. We could use a good consumer advocate, but a little tact and a little heart would go a long way towards your achieving that.

So TJ... I am out of it, you won, does that make you feel good? I hope so, because the one thing I will sacrafice myself for is to help someone else feel better, or have a better day, so I hope yours is a wonderful one... remember though, what goes around comes around... and you just never know who is going to be doing the steering.

"Name the Names
any of his sources who do not have agendas
wont have any thing to worry about right :-)" - wolf359

Wrong. ;)

They'll have to worry about people like you asking and speculating and insinuating on who they voted for and what their motivations are and wether they're egologically correct or a nazi or gasp! a Republican!... because you'll do it in their inbox and IM's just like you're doing it here without knowing.

And not everyone has the brass to say what they think straight up and not sweat the blogroaches, unlike me.

And they'll have to worry about getting their inboxes full of extremely vile hatemail like several free stuff creators I know have.. all from dear sweet pillar of the fucking community merchants who hate freebie makers "stealing munee out of the mouths of their poor starving rugrats".

Think it don't happen? You're a bigger twit than I'm taking you for right now if you do. Tell me it doesn't happen - and I'll call you a liar straight up. There's freebie providers that will back that with their own annecdotes.

Funny... I don't get many of those directly. Maybe it's my way of dealing with them?

Got an idea: there's more wide open venues where this same discussion is going on. Step on over. Right now you're being a prime example of why customers don't post their grievances with vendors openly.

"The fact that you had to go on a highly immature rant and question someone as you have indicates to me you are just spoiling for a fight." - Natolii

He ain't. He's spouting hot air in a venue where he knows a mod will bail him out if someone bites back. ;)

An' he were spoilin' for an even fight, he'd be in a different neigborhood.

"Iron Bear & Questor
personal attacks on Me may make you feel smarter/clever
I suppose :-)" - wolf359

Just makes me feel old and tired, actually. All I have to do is read your posts to feel smarter and cleverer - insulting you merely relieves the deadly tedium of knowing that you just stole two minutes of my life I'll never get back... and for no return in value.

Nice try though.

"Sure, not everyone has freebies. But, last I checked, it's not a prerequisite. " - MorriganShadow

No offense Morrigan - you seem to be one of the most level headed and decent of the breed here: but maybe there should be a prerequisite. And I'd say the same an' I were wearing my admin's hat. I have before.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Alright, I know this topic is delicate and emotions may be running high but please steer clear of the personal attacks and just focus on the discussion at hand. Can we not make our points without resorting to personally attacking the people thats opinion is different than our own? If the personal attacks continue and this can't be discussed in a civil manner then warnings will be issued and the thread will be locked. Thanks, Stacey Community Manager

"So TJ... I am out of it, you won, does that make you feel good?" Doesn't make me feel anything, really... My intent is bigger than to simply "feel good." /P

Attached Link: http://www.rathergood.com/laibach/

Did someone say, "cold blooded, soulless kitten-stompers..."

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Ironbear wrote: "Vile slanderer! I do not stomp kittens. Forumites, on the other hand... ;) " But IB, most of the forumites are kittens posing as lions, yes?

Attached Link: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/hellolarry.html

*Reads the posts since the last time through; nods; shrugs again.*

This one will pass, too.

They all do eventually.

---

To quote myself (I just love quoting myself -- I love to hear myself talk as much as the next guy):

Like I said in the other thread -- in a situation like that: people will choose up sides with their buddies.....and then they will go to bloody war with each other.

I just love being proven right so often -- it's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.

---

So you're going ahead with this, Peng?

I am looking forward to reading your reviews. And to reading the responses to those same reviews.

You usually do your commentaries fairly. Do the product critiques fairly, and you might win over a few.

But I'd advise against flame-bait type editorials.

But I don't even work here, so have fun!

Perhaps I should start my own website, and call it "windy".

---

Has anyone around here ever heard of a really bad late 70's television sitcom called Hello, Larry?

Meadowlark Lemon of Harlem Globetrotters fame was on the show --

-- it was selected as the 12th worst TV show of all time by TV Guide magazine.

It's worth mentioning. And it's a very important issue in the grand scheme of things.

Follow the link -- they've even got .mp3's of the show's theme song!

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

But IB, most of the forumites are kittens posing as lions, yes?

How true, how true.

Personally, I find myself to be quite intimidated by the white-on-black (my chosen color scheme here at RR) letters on my CRT screen here at the office.

meow

......sorry......the tortoiseshell Office Cat (OC for short) at my feet is looking for attention again.......

......she knows how to get it, too.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

BTW - Tigers are actually bigger and stronger than lions. And another bit of trivia: whenever a lion and a tiger meet with one another in the wild, they will fight to the death.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

wolf - I'm in the same boat as Natolli you know, I have tested products, and not just on 3DA - so when I was told I was wrong and a product with weld issues was NOT broken I knew better. I can't even begin to tell you how many products I rejected where the answer I received was "well it's already selling at Renderosity". Yea? So what? If you had read what I wrote above you'd see what happens with some brokers in regards to a customer going public - I was attacked, those who bought the package to check it were attacked or derided, by both the merchant and a staff member (in my case). This isn't about people buying things they thing are imperfect, it's about people buying things that are not working correctly. Sure some products may look like "a crack whore" and some merchants should definitely try providing free stuff and learning how their programs work before tryig to make a quick buck, but that's my personal opinion and I simply won't buy from them - as long as the promo is accurate. In regards to the feedback system, that is all well and good, but if a request is proferred I'll bet the negative feedbck is removed right? So a customer has 2 choices, get their money back or leave a legitimate review to warn others? Gee I think most will choose a refund which means the negative ro "accurate" comments regarding issues will disappear - not a very fair system. In reality very few merchants make enough $$ doing this to "feed their family" I know top selling merchants who can't make that claim consistently. I may occasionally reap in more than enough to pay my mortgage and groceries (and last year for a trip to VA Beach at a 5 star resort for a weekend), but it's not consistent enough to claim it feeds my family. My point, if you can't afford to get bad feedback or have a product publically discussed in a negative amnner than you should be very careful in regards to promotional wording and technical issues. As for a "consumer report" or evena listing of personal opinions regarding the look of a product - guess what? It's called free speech and critics and reviewers have been doing it for years. Don't like it, then don't submit a product and don't read the report. Seems simple enough to me.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

Lions Africa... Tigers Asia and the Indian sub continent... or is there a species i'm missing? Oh ok, it's just a bookmark, no need to answer but it's better than the '.' Jack

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>"They'll have to worry about people like you asking and speculating and insinuating on who they voted for and what their motivations are and wether they're egologically correct or a nazi or gasp! a Republican!... because you'll do it in their inbox and IM's just like you're doing it here without knowing."<<<< ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Actually I am an unrepentant supply side conservative. go figure I have had unsatisified customers who purchased My Custom BVH files and posted negative reviews on my store page. since these individual clearly identified themselves each time I was able to contact them privately and: 1) OFFER to adjust the BVH files they purchased 2) create new alternate BVH file for their needs 3) offer them any BVH file they wanted from my rather vast private collection until they were satisified. all for FREE of course. that how I handle complaints if you dont believe me(not that i care) just ask "bigTim" or "terrymitchell and I thank these buyers for coming to me for a solution rather than submit my name anonymously to some web bloggers shit list :-) >>>And not everyone has the brass to say what they think straight up and not sweat the blogroaches, unlike me<<< yes im sure we are all very proud of your "internet courage" particularly us military verterans. >>>And they'll have to worry about getting their inboxes full of extremely vile hatemail like several free stuff creators I know have.. all from dear sweet pillar of the fucking community merchants who hate freebie makers "stealing munee out of the mouths of their poor starving rugrats"<<< Think it don't happen? You're a bigger twit than I'm taking you for right now if you do. Tell me it doesn't happen<<<<<<< Hmm... much anger i sense in you Padwan Unfortunately however not only does this happen but its worse than even you might be aware, recently one new merchant was warned not to release a competing product or their "life would be made a living hell" truly sad :-( which is why Peng will be attacked either way unless he like, Natolli obtains and tests the products himself in the light of day >>> Right now you're being a prime example of why customers don't post their grievances with vendors openly<<< and your explicable appearances in these "Death to rosity type threads are a prime example of why Capt Piccard, a human, was chosen to be the arbitor of succession after the poisoning death of chancelor T'empec "Because no Klingon could be trusted." Agendas, Agendas,Agendas,Agendas...........

My website

YouTube Channel

Attached Link: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/067152.php

*Lions Africa... Tigers Asia and the Indian sub continent... or is there a species i'm missing?*

In natural conditions tigers and lions generally do not inhabit the same territory - the two species coexist in the wild today only in the Gir forest of India although their respective ranges used to intersect in Persia, China and perhaps also Beringia.

There is also another -- much larger creature called a "liger" -- 900 lbs or so.

Ligers result from the artificial interbreeding of lions and tigers together.

I haven't seen much of that happening lately.......artificial or otherwise.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

In natural conditions tigers and lions generally do not inhabit the same territory Another truth. Good thing, too.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Given the level of animosity in this thread, it's pretty clear to me that product reviews are gonna be tinged, or warped, by raw emotion and other personal problems not associated with the product itself. It's no longer just a question of a defective product (I know, I have tested a few myself, and they start out almost unusable). It's now clearly a question of politics, of who's buddies with whom, and any ethical considerations are out the window quicker than a nude fairy on crystal meth. I foresee a situation where some other guy (not Peng, who is honest) sets up a website for product reviews, anonymous of course to prevent the reviewers from being attacked the same way the merchants are. "Jeez, how do I get of the reviewer's shit list?", a merchant might wonder. Through a series of devious back-alley e-mails and communiqu (anonymous of course, no IMs to avoid tipping off the admins), the word on the street makes it clear that the reviewer expects merchandise or other favors from recalcitrant merchants, otherwise the ridicule, the name-calling, the political attacks, the gossip will continue. But eventually things get out of hand, the reviewer gets too drunk with what he perceives as his own "power", there are accusations of fraud, payola, libel, etc., and the reviewer's site is shut down by an ISP that has been hammered by the whole scandal for way too long.

Thanks for the info on the big cats. Hmmm wonder if i can mate my cat with something that doesn't destroy furniture. Anyway. From my pov it's pretty obvious why the ptb have tried to ditch this subject (merchants not cats). The merchants, no matter how... er... er... 'amateurish', make money. They are a commodity and Rosity will protect them because they make money for the site. Fair enough, but at the cost of the poor old buyer who gets the shitty end of the stick again. Personally, I like the idea of merchants having to do a 'freebie apprenticship' before being allowed to sell in the marketplace. Jack (screw the typos)

Well said mateo ;-)

My website

YouTube Channel

mateo - I reviewed products for years - I was never accused of being anything less than honest, although there were the occasionall pissed off merchants. Admittedly I always gave the creator the chance to respond to negative or neutral reviews and if they updated or repaired a product I made mention of that. As for a site being shut down - well there's a law suit waiting to happen. To shut a site down the site owner must clearly violate the TOS of their provider and posting product reviews is not a violation of any TOS I've ever seen. Sure people may be unhappy about it - but shutting down a site with that content would more than likely require a court order that actually finds the site owner to be guilty of an illegal action.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

It's now clearly a question of politics, of who's buddies with whom

Yep.

As is usual in this community.

---

Note to all merchants:

I am now an Official Product Reviewer. I'll get a shingle for my office door painted up next week sometime.

IM me for the e-mail where you can send your free products for evaluation.

Hint: the free-er, the better........in more ways than one.

;-)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

well there's a law suit waiting to happen

All the way around -- if you know what I mean.

Although the average merchant probably doesn't have the bucks to make it a viable option -- on the other hand: websites might.

It's something else to think about and to consider. Carefully.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I do know what you mean, but that is only a consideration honestly if the reveiwer is being less thanhonest in theri presentation.

An honest reviewer who is looking at something from a technical POV or even someone who states "this product was so damned ugly in my personal opinion that I couldn't bring myself to buy it evenf or testing" they are not libelous comments.

But to state as a fact that a product has flaws and faults that are not present, well that would certainly be asking for trouble.

3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo

that is only a consideration honestly if the reveiwer is being less thanhonest in theri presentation. A court action doesn't have to be won in order to be a major pain. And a major expense. Once again: just a thought.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Particularly if the pending actions begin to multiply......from various sources. If someone is going to go down this road, then they need to seriously consider the places that it might lead. And then decide whether or not it's worth it in the first place. It wouldn't be worth it to me. But of course: I can only speak for myself.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

When you consider a number of Beta Testers and Q&A do it for free anyhow... The difference is, I not only make sure my merchants have a quality product out of the gate, I am also one of the few that can say Yay or Nay to a product entering a store. The difference is, I have someone that will back me up if I think a product needs work ::salutes Ironbear with a grin::. I always back my findings with renders. So instead of insulting people, how about suggestions to make this work? Two suggestions: A best of the best style (the exact oppposite) Or A submission form where people can fill in a questionaire based on their experiences with the products. Again staying anonymous, but it is also something that can be investigated and followed up on. A report card if you will.

So the consensus is, the flood of crap in the marketplace is a GOOD thing? Merchants, no matter their skill level are above reproach? Jesus, merchants are just business people. Selling their wares. Period. They are not some demi-gods to be worshiped. I recently went looking for some skins for V3. Had to wade through page after page after page of the same tripe before finding an honest to goodness texture worth my cash.Most of the stuff I wouldn't download for free! All you vendors that DO produce good work and HAVE the talent to make a good product should jump at the chance to change that if possible. Your work is being lost due to the overwhelming flood of tripe. ITs become almost impossible to find the silk purse amongst the multitude of sows ears. I believe for some reason there is a rush to market. That wasn't always the case. Some here and elsewhere can't wait to upload a product no matter how amaturish or flawed. Used to be an up and coming product developer would do freestuff till they had honed their talent enough to hit the marketplace with their wares. No longer. As a customer, I would value a marketplace where QUALITY was the rule, not the exception. Caveat Emptor.

Spiritbro77, Haven't you ever been to the public market? The Renderosity store is not really a "store". It's a public market. The Admins. have told us that from day one. DAZ is a "Store". Stop trying to treat it as a store. It was never supposed to be a "Store". You can't apply the same rules to a market place that you do to a store. Many people love to go bargain hunting. If you don't like flea markets. Then don't shop there. Don't get pissed at the fleas. ;-)

um....i was going to avoid posting to this thread, but.... I'm not going to comment on the rights or wrongs of puting forward an opinion. The texture/hair products obviously show what they are in the promo renders, and unless one is using a braille monitor, that much is obvious to the buyer before purchase. giggles at ExtremeThemes addition to product text. In all the highlighted products, the customer can obviously see what they are getting from the promo images. Therefore, this isnt a case of false advertising. And I don't see how the claim that they "don't work as advertised" can be applied. They are being advertised in such a way that the way they work is blatantly obvious. As for Merchant Resource packs, well, a lot of folks know how I feel about them, about the uniformity of products that ensue from everyone using the same packs, in the same way, the copyright issues, and the over-saturation of the market this has caused. So, I'm not going there again. With regards to freestuff. I've always made freestuff, and quite often I'll put out a component of a current store pack, as this gives a potential customer a taste of the product BEFORE they part with their bucks. Now, maybe it's easier for me, because I create props, but I feel freestuff is pretty much an essential requirement. Admitted, my freestuff additions have been sparse of late, but then, in the last year and a half I've been divorced, lost my family and home, moved to another country and been unable to upload stuff to my website. (The last is my own fault for taking a mediocre free hosting deal). As for testing standards, while Renderosity does indeed do its best to ensure that all products work as advertised, the other stores I broker at have higher standards. Though I'm not entirely sure where this perception that DAZ have ultra high standards comes from. There is very little there that I would part with the amount of $ theyre asking for it. They have differant criteria, for sure, but not necessarily higher standards than some of the sites I currently broker through.

 "That which doesn't kill you is probably re-loading"

In all the bickering and fighting that this thread has engendered, one very important thing has been overlooked - the completely gratuitous slam against 'New York City Crack Whores'.

Not only is that remark insensitive but it completely overlooks the fact that NYCCH's can be a lot of fun plus they can usually be had for such reasonable prices.

Hopefully this shows how wrong it is to judge something or someone without considering all the relevant facts.

Shame on you Pengy :(

...

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

"Is that an assumption that folks who shop here don't really care whether or not what they spend their hard earned money on is top notch? I would never, never, ever dream of buying anything....unless an antique, or yard sale item that was not perfect. would you buy a new hard drive with bad sectors, a new car with flat tires or tranny problems, a dress or pair of pants with mismatched seams, etc., etc., etc.? this makes no sense to me. how many of you actually don't expect perfection from what you are buying in the mp at the time you plop down the old credit card?" Want to have critics?, any conforming dress for Vicky doesn't conform to Vicky! If you bend her knees the dress will not follow the shin, you have to apply the morphs that comes with the dress, change the joint parameters, change the legs position/orientation and a lot of headache until the feet crossing the dress surface in an surealistic point is not more visible, if you have luck and don't desist of your pose. If I buy a dress I know that it will not conform, but if I like it I shall buy it anyway. I don't know about dynamic clothes so I haven't any opinion yet.

Stupidity also evolves!

Maybe Pengy should test a few NYCCH's before he reviews them? But then again, maybe not. ;-)

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

At least she isn't a DC crack whore. Otherwise you would be asked to NAME the NAME'S of your other clients .Your history in the forums and the stand you took on the CHILD NUDITY issue will be investigated.Then you will have to disclose what political party they supported in the last elections compared to the New York crack whores. Next you will be checked for skin color,sexual orientation and their religious beliefs,whether you've ever had sex, and what food you eat. Only if the above questions are answered to satisfaction will you be required to declare yourself a carnivore or vegetarian. The type of car you drive will then be reviewed to make sure it is adequate for the act. Your stance on the environment is only considered if you plan on using condoms,but your weight,personal hygiene. and employment record are of no concern,I mean C'mon she's a crack whore after all.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

any conforming dress for Vicky doesn't conform to Vicky! If you bend her knees the dress will not follow the shin, you have to apply the morphs that comes with the dress, change the joint parameters, change the legs position/orientation and a lot of headache until the feet crossing the dress surface in an surealistic point is not more visible, if you have luck and don't desist of your pose. well, it shouldn't be that way. long dresses are hard to conform to all poses, but if they are clingey type they should be able to bend at the knee etc. even i've made a few where vicki could sit with no problem. never sold any of them, though, because....vicki couldn't do the splits in them, and, i didn't want to make buyers angry. i have so much that isn't perfect on my hd, it's not funny....and, just after reading this thread am starting to see dollar signs on it.

Ok this subject is getting us nowhere we stand by our decision and I have given you all a chance to voice your opinions. Being as this could go on and on I am locking this thread as of now. SndCastie Community Admin

Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things

SndCastie's Little Haven