A while back I sent an IM to CLSteve and pointed out to him a thread hotly discussing the inability to get a great character in Poser because of limits to the standard Poser Rig. In my opinion, the subject boiled up because not only are the new Poser6 figures subject to the typical shoulder/arm bulge problems (a great dissapointment) and other problems, but the Daz Unimesh characters are also fully subject to it, and Daz says their future plans WILL continue to revolve around the Unimesh. I was told that personally by Dan Farr on the phone. Steve from Curious Labs answered me today as follows: ------------------------------------------- Instant Message from clsteve: Yes, I read that and many others. If you would like to send me a spec on how you think they should be rigged I would be happy to review it and take any suggestions into consideration. Thanks, Steve ------------------------------------------- Perhaps he is saying "just tell me how to do the impossible and of course we will put it in place" or perhaps this is a genuine request for a serious spec. Is there such a thing as boiling up a spec for an ideal Poser Rig? Or...perhaps Curious Labs is already doing everything possible within the scope of the source code and anything we would ask for is not feasible. ::::: Opera :::::

It could be that they are looking ahead to Poser 7 and ways to improve the current rigging. It can't hurt to give input, right? 8-)

New source code :)

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 21:46

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Add an additional back and shoulder joint. For a basic rig, within the current structure, it would solve the specific problem. And since everyone wants basic rigs instead of the more developed ones that should and could be used, it solves the essential problem. Easy? No. Would it piss off clothing makers? Yes -- but no more so than the ERC morphs in the mil figures. In the most ideal of worlds, they would create a new rigging system that avoids the complexities of the weight mapped system and the imprecision of the bone system, while blending the musclularity approach of the weight mapped methodology with the simplicity of the bone based system. In either case of that ideal, however, it would essentially destroy the market for accessories as it now stands, and would further the split in applications thereby.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Spec? SPEC!!!? ;0)

Well, all he need do is look at the five hundred modern rigging systems available (Animation Master, Cinema 4D, LightWave3D, Maya (!), 3DSMax, XSI, ...). While Poser's rigging system has hardly budged, these other systems are now using hard and soft IK, soft body dynamics, up-vectors, animation controllers and interface systems, blended weighting, muscle systems, etc. and so forth.

It is not just a matter of adding bones, but I do agree that a full spinal system and extra bones at critical areas would help. :)

Part of the problem lies in the archaic deformation system. Cactus Dan (plug) has just released an excellent Cinema4D plugin called CD Morph which has some great features, not the least of which is allowing bones (using individual axes) to control these morphs. Can you say "muscle system"? :) Incidentally, I provided the base code to get this plugin going (I take no credit for the bone-control whatsoever, though. That was all him.).

The key is in the deformations. Drop the twist/angles/sphericalzones. Use real weighting!

ETA: Also, drop the archaic default pose. The current professional methodology is have the arms down at 45d. This reduces the bad deformations on arms from at-the-side to straight-out-horizontal - where the least deformation occurs naturally. Extreme poses are those with the arm raised above the horizontal and there should be something that doesn't kick in until these angles are achieved (maybe an extra buldge or weight set is calculated in?).

Message edited on: 04/26/2005 23:22

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Aaaaaargh!!! Now they ask. Why didn't they ask before they released Poser 6, and I would have told them. Aaaaargh!!!!!!

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

The super-posable action figures are capable of a lot of body language despite being made of hard plastic. 2 joints at the knee and 2 at the elbow help immensely. We humans do have kneecaps! If there was an extra joint in the shoulder area, perhaps we could get away from the balloons? I would also urge that the breasts go back with the chest rather than the collars. They were attached to the collars so that they would rise as an arm rises, but nobody makes morphs like that for them anyway (and we don't have morphs for them to move to the side, either). With more bones, the ones we use wouldn't have to move as far and could be deformed less. Ideally? There should be a neck and upper neck, another one between abdomen and chest (so that the whole spine can twist nicely), and extras at buttocks, shoulders, knees, and elbows. That would be 10 additional bones to help carry the mesh. Carolly

I don't think bones will help because of the falloff zones. When you twist the head, you are twisting the upper neck, when you twist the upper neck, you are twisting the upper neck and neck, when you twist the neck, the you twisting the neck. I think the same thing will happen with more bones elsewhere, you will create overlapping falloff zones that are acually moving the same parts of the mesh but using more groups.

How does "weighting" differ from the current joint setup? I have often thought that the current setup would benefit greatly from the addition of a spherical "exclusion zone" for each joint. I'd like to think something like that might help fix some of the worst bending ugliness. But I have no idea what I'm suggesting, really.... So it is hardly a "spec"....

===========================sigline======================================================

Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking. He apologizes for this. He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below. His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

The current joint setup just throws a region around the geometry with falloff within the region. This is the old way of weighting bones - most 3D systems with rigging capabilities have moved on. It is not very exact and requires that one be careful with region placement. Poser avoids some of this by only weighting the body part and parent with the body part's region (as specified in the Joint Editor). Weighting using vertex maps is a newer system (and there are systems beyond this one, but it should suffice). Using vertex maps, one can set weights point-by-point or polygon-by-polygon to exact precision. No worry about regions intersecting unwanted polygons. So, why keep adding more and more types of geometric regions when the answer is simple: vertex maps are the wave of the future - ten years ago! ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Wraith, Having 2 bending points at the knee would minimize the broken soda straw look. There would still be deformation, but better-controlled. Vertex mapping would be even better, but I don't think we could get it for this version... I might be wrong... CL has popped odd improvements upon us before (like the volumetric lights) just because Larry figured out how to do it and wanted to share. Carolly

I doubt that the changes will apply to the current version, because that would mean that all clothing would have to be redone as well ... including the clothing by third-parties. I think it's more likely that we will see changes for the next version. 8-)

Attached Link: http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Work/PSD/PSD.pdf

I would like someting like this...

Knees and elbows are a must .. yes i know there are other serious problems that you guys who are much more skilled are more concerned with .. and for something like pants and jeans the current system works fine .. but if you ever look ar making armour in real life or for a poser figure (i've done both) the elbow and knee cups don't move with either part of the leg. Having a knee cap or an elbow to parent a prop to .. even if it's really small would be great.

Being able to morph the inner and outer MAT spheres would eb a nice start.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Poser's bone system with the spherical falloff zones is archaic by today's standard,it has to be overhauled. The rigs we have right now for M3-V3 figures are pretty good considering the limitations we have to work with, it's not perfect but it is acceptable for most poses. The people rigging Poser figures have to come up with one rig that is good for any kind of poses, where in reality when producing professionnal animations you will often have several different rigs for the same character depending on the moves you want him to make. Riggers have pushed the enveloppe quite a bit in the last years for Poser stuff, by using all sorts of tricks like joint contolled morphs etc, but now a rethinking of the whole system is in order. As far as clothing, the current system is no picnic, I am leaning more and more towards dynamic clothing it's just easier to setup, and definitely easier to animate with it.

Dominique Digital Cats Media

Also being able to animate joints would be nice too

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Non-Spherical zones? In the Modo 102 trial release doc videos, they model a spring and morph its compression via a weighted UV map. UV-Vertex maps? What is the best solution out there? Is it a combo of multiple solutions? Just how BACKwards compatible do we want to be? No one says we HAVE to delete the older version of Poser off the Machine. Perhaps versions 7 and 8 are intermediate-transitional versions until a WAAAAAY better version(not so backwards compatible) of Poser arrives. I think this what we really are approaching. Poser is maturing. It's over 10 years old. The new users (newbies sounds so derrogatory now) can use the older (NOW Current) versions to get feet wet. The idea of Poser Artist/Pro Pack is cool. Start with Basic Poser, if you want to step up, upgrade to a more powerful version. Look at the other "PRO" modelling packages. A later version comes out, you have to "upgrade" your models, plug-ins etc. Do we want to do this with Poser? It just dawned on me that we have a interesting type of community here and this is related to another thread where someone noted that the 'open' format of Poser made a lot of the tricks, techniques and the types of users here make Poser what it is. It will be a tricky balancing act where we can preserve legacy while still moving on, be it with models, textures etc. Look at what we have now; Texture converters, clothing (geometry of a sorts) converters and other great utilities to carry on. So I think we should move forward as someone will figure out a way to bring the legacy stuff forward (investing to 'protect' those thousands investments). Of course, we come back to what's the best way to rig the new Poser?

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

I tend to agree with dlfurman. Would love to see CL leap the product ahead and let the aftermarket create bridging products, have a PoserArtist (current Poser6) as entry level. If that happens, with a new rigging system and a successful dynamic cloth/hair function, and IBL/AO, a price point under $500, etc..... Gee wiz, ya got a competetor for the current higher-level apps. but with this fantastic character gen 'studio' built in and a big user base. ::::: Opera :::::

I am completely a newbie in regards to falloff and joints and the like but I have seen a number of models modelled in the non T format that might allow for better elbows, shoulders and knees within a somewhat similar system. Arms slightly down and turned, elbows slightly bent, knees slightly bent as well (I think) and the paper tube bending is limited (try bending a paper tube and that is basically what you have now with the knees and elbows). But there are other ways around it as well.

I think everyone knows the problem with the current system. What I think most people are forgetting is how (relatively) easy it makes rigging clothing. Currently, I would bet 95% of clothing articles out there use the EXACT SAME rig as figure they are for. Why, because it is easy. Take away the whole "region/falloff" based rigging and the ease in which merchants can create clothing plummets. Currently it is possible to create something in Wings (a free modelling application), import it into Poser and get the clothing rigged in an hour (approx, some people are alot quicker!!!). Make merchants have to paint the weights and that ends the accessibility of the market for most people (whether that is a good or a bad thing for us consumers is different to it being good/bad to CL). There ARE ways to have region/weight based rigging work and work well. Have a look at Project Messiah - it is an INCREDIBLY powerful rigging/animation tool (with a kickass renderer to boot); and more importantly - it uses region/falloff based rigging.

I agree with Eternl Knight. You don't see hundred of Posable figures, animals and glothes ready to go for LW and such. I think expanding the current system is good. Weight mapping is cool, but complicated. You cannot just transfer the same unto clothes. I think Daz Studio converts Poser joints into weight mapping doesn't it? I think if CL added Weight mapping, it would be wise(for legacy purposes) to have a conversion so existing cr'2 for figures and clothes are trranslated. That way people who rig currently can stay with it if they want and people aren't forced into a new arena they might not be ready for yet. So here is my list: 1) Morphable Mat Spheres 1b) Additional Mat spheres per part 1c) Fiber incremental translarion units for joints. 2) Animatable(lib save) joints 3) Alternate weight mappong with legacy conversion/generation. Poser's joint system isn't that horrible. ALot of peopleblam Poser when the truth really is that alot of figure joints just aren't done as well as they could be. With this in mind, a new system isn't going to help those figures if their creators aren't making the most of the current system.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Are you trying to say that the inherent problems with commercial figures (Aiko, Hiro, David, M2/M3, V2/V3, SP3, Don, Judy, Jessi, James, etc., etc., etc.) are because these professionals just aren't doing the joints correctly? 8*O Come'on. Whoya kiddin'? One would think that if it were possible, in these many years, someone would have completely obliterated these problems with a figure that puts the rest to shame in all respects. [Looking around with hand over brows]

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Are you trying to say that the inherent problems with commercial figures (Aiko, Hiro, David, M2/M3, V2/V3, SP3, Don, Judy, Jessi, James, etc., etc., etc.) are because these professionals just aren't doing the joints correctly? 8O* No, I'm saying that the current method of rigging figures makes the rigging of third-party content (i.e. clothes) MUCH easier and as such, allows for the large market that Poserdom has. I am willing to put money down on the fact that if a merchant had to paint the joint weights on FOR EVERY item they created - we would lose over half the merchants currently selling stuff in the market place. Now this might be good for quality (as only the more dedicated merchants would create things), but it cuts both ways. We would lose alot of variety and the "appeal" for hobbiest users would drop. I don't think anyone here thinks the "status quo" is good (perhaps "good enough for now", but not "good overall"). What we are saying is that simply replacing the current rigging functionality with a solution that requires "weight painting" will gut the marketplpace as we know it. As I said, take a look at Project Messiah. It uses region-based rigging and it is capable of some VERY good deformations. If CL wants to see how things should be done - they should have a look at that.

Jointing a figure can be a career unto itself. People do the best they can at the time. Think of Uv mapping. You don't blame UV mapper if a model has Seam problems.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

No, I'm thinking about the Daz3D company which invested, what, two years or so in developing Victoria3. This was no "best at the time" - shoulders, knees, back same as all other figures (or worse). And there was 0 (zero (nil (zilch (zip)))) dependence upon any pleasing or conforming to any market for clothing. This was a fresh start where Daz controlled all of the variables - except for Poser itself. For that type of investment in time, money, people (they have quite a few), V3 should have been the quintessential Poser figure with no problems to be seen for years to come. The issues existed 'out of the box' as it were. My point is this: if a company with employees and heavy investment can't produce something fully useful - that overcomes these perpetual problems, then who's going to do it? Bill Gates and 50,000 of his employees? Look, I'm not totally disagreeing with EK here, but the same goes for setting up JPs for clothing as it does for weight mapping - except most clothing creators tweak the JPs (or not). There would be no difficulty in transfering weight mapping by proximity to the clothing in some manner. You don't have to recreate all of the JP parameters from scratch for clothes - and there are ways that it wouldn't (or shouldn't) need to be done for weight maps. If I wasn't in the middle of several concurrent plugin projects, I'd take the bet and design a figure using current Poser features that works. But would it be worth it or would it just be another sidelined figure with little community support. If you gentlemen and ladies want to put your money where your keyboard is, why is there no open project with a large group of you creating a figure that tromps on them all? If it is truly possible to create a figure that doesn't have the issues that seem to exist in the other human figures, then what are you waiting for?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Eternl Knight: Can we say Dynamic Clothing? PhilC has a program where you just Paint and Go for Dynamic Clothing. (I'm oversimplifying here but you get the idea). Can we do rigid dynamic clothing? We are at (IMHO) a critical point in Poser developement. Does the program Grow and Mature (Road Sign: You are now leaving Puberty, Population:A lot and growing :) ) At what point do we leave some stuff behind? (If you still have your diskettes you could always reload the Poser 1 male and female).

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Is it really neccesary to scrap the old system, though? Pixar has proven you can run multiple rigs and switch between them on the fly. I would think it would be possible to have a legacy system, and a new system existing side by side. That would preserve the investment, and allow those content creators who are interested to make a new rig for a product, and release just that; either as a paid upgrade or a freebie. And more than likely, someone would kludge up a way to use the old system for some things, and a newer system in the problem areas.

kuroyume0161 is making a solid argument. Either a great model can NOT be created within the current Poser, OR everyone who has attempted it is not very accomplished. That's the harsh fact. His pitch about the wide open moment for Daz with (one would have to imagine) great talent on board not producing something insanely great is hard to counter. And EK your fact is correct (the ease of clothing making); there is a market both for the application and the merchants. It is quite possible that market and system would NOT appreciate, welcome or invest in a new, advanced Poser. But...is that the end? We get Firefly, procedural materials, IBL/AO, but the rigging and animation tools are at a final, dead end? I agree with dlfurman...Poser is up against a barrier and without a new rigging system, of which it was pointed out in post 5 above there are many many examples, Poser can't mature. ::::: Opera :::::

Dale, that system/market for the current way with its momentum...it would not be scrapped, nor would it have to be scrapped; it is making money! I see the two coexisting, very much like you just described. Perhaps a different name? ::::: Opera :::::

kuroyume0161 would you start from fresh mesh or would you re-rig Jessi?

Wow, Opera I agree with everything you said. 1. It defies logic that if Poser is capable of rigs magnitudes better than currently available that someone hasn't done so. By extension, I assume that the Poser rigging system is NOT capable of rigs much better than what we already have and needs to be replaced/improved. 2. The merchants of the existing marketplace may not appreciate/support a new rigging system. Look how long it took for P5 features such as the material room and dynamic clothing to make it to the marketplace! As such, CL needs to come up with a rigging system that is easy/non-time-consuming to use on clothing. Any new system that can be ported without fuss to clothing meshes should be fine with most merchants. 3. While there is alot if improvement that can go into the rendering engine, Poser cannot mature without improving the rigging system. Good rendering does not cover crumpled or ballooned shoulder.

I disagree with saying that a great model cannot be produced within the current Poser setup. I have been working on my original figures for eight months now, and I know that it can be done, but it is a lot of work. If you look at simple stuff, like another thread here about Jessi's feet you will see how that has been improved in a short space of time by Jim Burton. The makers of current figures have one major disadvantage: THEY DON'T LISTEN!!!!! How long have we been saying that the "point at" feature for the head doesn't work, because it points out the top of the head, instead of forward. What do we get? 6th generation Poser figures with the same problem, that any Poser user here could fix in a few minutes. The great Poser figure can and will be made. The problem is whether that figure will be accepted by the community if it is not released by DAZ or Curious Labs.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2233758

Jim is going beyond the feet, according to posts he has made in the last few hours. Maybe he (or you Helgard) or someone else can generate an improved Jessi model. But the advanced features that you find in Modo and Character Studio and Motion Builder, etc????? ::::: Opera :::::

Attached Link: http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/vids/gallery/Akira_O_TheGlassCage.mov

Look at Project Messiah. It uses the same system as Poser (skeleton with spherical fall off zones), but the models are far superior. Seriously, go look at Project Messiah. www.projectmessiah.com Download the video at the link and then tell me about the shoulder problems. And that was done with the old version of Messiah, the new version can do better.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

operaguy, I would have to start with a fresh mesh (or at least with current one that has been altered in a modeling app). Of course, before even starting on such a project, I would educate myself more on the process - especially from the successful modelers/riggers who know their stuff (the ones who work for the studios). :) Helgard makes several good points. There was someone a little while back experimenting with adding bones to the spine for more natural bending. This was a good idea. Someone is working on the Jessi's feet. Why can't we get all of these 'innovations' into one character (or all to follow, if you get my drift)? Currently, we have figures with three spine bones (neck, chest, abdomen) and single-toed feet. Real humans have a fully mobile skeletal structure in their feet, they can even wiggle their toes. ;) Helgard, is there anything from Project Messiah that can be drawn into Poser's rigging to help? (I haven't checked the video yet, but will shortly).

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Hey, I know all about this application, Helgard. Look at my first comment - I mentioned Project Messiah back then :) Admittedly the video you point to has the (superior) equivalent to JCM's working for the musculature, but the underlyinig principles are all working just fine and dandy. I've been talking to several users of the application and I am seriously considering laying down the money for it. CL should probably take a look at this as "competition" as, given it's price and sheer animation/rendering power, it is a contender for the hobbiest market too!

There is only one thing that prevents this (a community Poser figure) from happening. Money. I have spent 8 months working on my figures, originally intended as market place items. I dropped work on them when Vicky and Mike where released for free. I am prepared to work on great Poser figure, but before I start I need to know these things: Who will head the project? Will it be free, if not, who decides who gets paid what? If it is free, will it be free for all, and free for redistribution and improvement? Who will host the files, and pay the bandwidth on the downloads? (I have released free models that had 800 downloads in a day, and that costs money) So you see my problem. I do not have the time to head a project like this, nor do I have the resources to pay for all this. Something like this could be brilliant, or it could just lead to a lot of squabling and indecision if the person who heads it is not a strong and dedicated person. I have loads of experiments, rigs, models, research and ideas, and I am willing to share, but not if that knowledge is going to lead to a failed character and the advances will just be snatched up by DAZ or Curious Labs and incorporated into the next junk figure they make.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

" There is only one thing that prevents this (a community Poser figure) from happening. Money. I have spent 8 months working on my figures, originally intended as market place items. I dropped work on them when Vicky and Mike where released for free." Not so! check out the new Open Source figures over at Sixus1! Project Human...

Yes. Sixus1 can afford the bandwidth. And Sixus1 have a good team leader/project head. Sixus1 is not a community project, they are a company, and they make money. They may give their figures away for free but they do make money on the add-ons to pay for it. Personally, as much as I like and respect Sixus1 and the fact that they have made their own humans, those models are not advanced enough to beat Vicky or Jessi or James or Mike.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Helgard go there. they are OPEN SOURCE NOW meaning you can take the figures and do what you like with them even make money! yes they are a COMMUNITY PROJECT.

infact : http://projecthuman.sixus1.com/ for the Beta figures and the Licence : http://projecthuman.sixus1.com/OSFL.txt

I'm looking at the project Human figures myself right now, and will (ok, stop your shuddering -- it happens) back up Khai on that. Several of us in the community have come to a greater and less narrow interprestation of what to do froma third party standpoint, and Sixus has taken many of those thoughts and ideas and worked them into the PH figures. Something for everyone to consider.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I sorta can afford the bandwidth. My internet connection, due mainly to being in the rural areas, is a T1 for home-business operations. No bandwidth limits, thank you very much. But it is only a 1Mb (~90KB) connection. Not bad, but definitely not DSL or Cable. My partner and I operate our own email, ftp, and several web servers. Though we've been having trouble with some dude in Moscow breaking into the DNS server trying to set up his own Apache site on that machine. I don't have money though. Most of that goes to pay for the T1 ($700/mo - long distance here) and mortgage ($2400/mo). As for time, work on interPoser Ltd 2.0 is underway, just finished two plugins for a stage production company in the Netherlands, getting ready to get back to interPoser Pro, and something else (NDA). This is all me, no employees. :) 70-80 hour weeks are murder, but worth the effort. I saw that Project Messiah video. Awesome! If only Poser were doing stuff like this! Look, I can always do something if needed. My time is stretched, but a community project (whether freeware or commercial) to shine the potential of Poser gets a thumbs-up from me.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

incidentally -- they are rather good looking. Something I wouldn't say if I didn't think so.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

kuroyume0161 , This is what I am saying. Right side is original V3 as you have her. Took all of 20 minutes. Okay going back to work. added nudity tag

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 00:52

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Anton, much better on the left shoulder. What V3 needs is a makeover (and what girl/woman doesn't like one of those!?). ;) If we could get shoulder, elbow (I hate the straw bendy spiked elbows on some of these figures), knee fixes and then some extra rigging for the toes and back, there might be something to move forward with. The problem is, at this late date, how does this affect the conglomerate of clothing out there? Do we just retain the clunky clothes and hope they work? I'm really for a better spine for Poser figures, if you haven't guessed. :)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Forgot to add, Anton: How do we disseminate these fixes? And legally so that Daz or someone else isn't claiming infringment. It'd be nice to have these fixes be automatic, you know what I mean, rather than incidental and hand-crafted.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I wouldn't know. You would have to ask them. They may let you objaction encode but really it isn't practical. There are so many figures to make clothes for now. People are already waiting for VickiPro which will need clothes. They aren't likely to start making clothes for a encoded derivative that could get pulled on a whim. Once a figure is released, it is what it is. It's like recalling a 1997 Ford for a engine change. They just make a new Ford for the upcoming year and convince people they need the latest model instead.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

You can definitely tell that Poser is moving into a new realm. This isn't the 'artists digital manakin' that it started as, huh? With the profuse amount of character animation going on these days, the stakes and bar are getting higher. There was a time when rigging toes was an unnecessary expense. These days, it is a necessary evil (or good, if you're into that type of thing). Just as we look backwards to those olden days of Ataris and C64s and earlier and wonder how Tron and the Moon missions happened with such archaic, limited computer equipment, there will be a day (hopefully not too many years from now) when the most intricate character rigging/muscle-system will be trite. People will wonder how we dealt with all of that complexity at such a level - just as we do with these other achievements. Poser, although using some archaic principles, is still ahead in some areas - conforming clothing, hair, simple pose/animation/material/etc application, a stuporing amount of content. I don't want to speak for Poser or Curious Labs, but the goal of being the innovator in character work is one they should take. Yes, even if they must divide into PoserArtist and PoserPro to hit both the hobbyist and professional markets. To address your point, which is well taken, there are constantly new figures and the community gravitates towards the best ones. Figures of superior quality, I believe, will entice loyalty and encourage sales related to them. I keep up with the Daz's as it were just because they always offer interesting figures and support them (well in some cases, moderately in others). The problem is whether to take a well constructed figure like V3 and correct its errors or to attempt a better figure with unforeseen potential. As you mention, V3 may be too far gone to be corrected. What do we do then?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

lol. I didn't say she was too far gone. lol It's just too close to the next version to bother. K I've been thinking about you some more kuroyume0161. :) ----------------------------- Poser one limitation that is absolute and part of what causes our woes... Poser skin doesn't not move..it only bends and twists. It will not shift over bone and muscle. I suppose you could do this but it is tricky. You need Dynamic Skin. If dynamic cloth is more natural than conforming the same would stand true to skin Just like the clothroom you need dynamic skin that conforms over a figure of muscle and bone. But this is so nightmarish. You would have to have a skeleton with dynamic muscles. Then a top of Dynamic skin. The muscles could be erc'd to morph properly as you pose the skeleton and the skin with soft and rigid groups would conform and respond. Now on top of all that the clothes would have to dynamically conform. They did this for the movie "The Mummy". Even they had poke through. But you could get around that my making the muscles and skeleton invisible. Point 1 --------- Even still, it would be a nightmare. The main reason Poser is popular is because people find it easy to use. It is already a struggle to get people to embrace dynamic cloth and hair and the material room. Add things like dynamic skin, weight mapping etc too quickly and brokers will vanish like morning dew. There are tons of people will warez copies of the most expensive rigging software but there is no content. Content is what makes everything is Poserdom click. "The Spice must flow". :) As we have seen, figures with little support fail. So do software packages. Peeps are already getting top line figures for under $100 and people scream robbery. If Poser technology becomes too complicated one of two things will happen 1) Prices will go up 2) People will give up making content as that it won't be cost effective. Poser will change and evolve but it has to be gradual. The bar is so rediculously high now for people who make content that too great of a jump, too soon, could kill Poser. People who make mediocre freebies now would have been heralded as gods years ago. It is asking alot for people to learn. So you have to ask yourself, what are you willing to live with? Not that you can't have expectations. It is late and your posts got me thinking. That's all.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Something for morning then. I'm nearly there myself. :)

My clarification on "too far gone" is that maybe there is too much V3 content (god, I said that?!) that may not work with a renewed and improved V3. Such improvements may go to the wayside if noone can use current additions with them.

I was going to ask about the release expectations of VickyPro. First I've heard of it actually. Is this the next version Victoria from Daz3d?

About Point 1:

To a certain extent, I agree. It seems that to gain the overall potential of Poser, one must go beyond the basics and then beyond experience to some sort of mastery. It would be great if the advantages gained by years of experience and tweaking were already available rather than requiring the tedium to get the desired results.

Being a Cinema4D user, I have reaped the benefits of a responsive development team and quality user-company relationship. With each new version, the features that are most desired by the users are added - usually with astounding appraisal.

We are definitely getting good products/content for the cost. And I never scream about it - except in the case of Zygotes' recent human internal organ package. ;) But if improvements are evident and seem to be easily remedied, as you related to the shoulder issue above, why are they not introduced?

The question that I ask myself often is this: Okay, Poser is the only character package that has tons of pre-made content: clothing, hair, character morphs, and so on, but why do I have to live with the shortcomings that have been voiced for years and the small inadequacies that seem to never be addressed? Content is what makes Poser, but the content must start to achieve certain levels or Poser will forever remain a hobbyist's plaything. Obviously, I project more onto Poser than what many users would. :)

If improvements in Poser require more complexity, then interfaces should be derived to reduce it! This is definitely what I see has happened with the Material Room in P6. That is the correct approach. Have a "I'm not a nerd" interface for the non-hardcore users and a "Yeah, I'm a nerd" interface for the hardcore users who can't help tweaking and twiddling. Make it simple for the users who don't want to be bothered while availing the more detail-oriented users with a more complex interface. All around, this lacks in the Setup process.

Message edited on: 04/28/2005 02:59

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/messages.ez?forum_id=45&Form.ShowMessage=134358

I've been watching rigging and animation training videos for Character Studio, Motion Builder and Project:Messiah over the last 18 hours, also reading reviews and forums. Pretty damn cool. But....for now.....I'm just going to 'park' that information. CL might be working on a substantial improvement to the current Jessie under the current rigging system. Jim Burton is working on Glamorous Jessie, lookin' good. Maybe CL will read this thread, plus all the other imput about a new rigging system and beginning working on a new Poser rigging system. There's a good solution in EJ. While all of that is boiling up, time to go finish my current animation (attached link). ::::: Opera :::::

I just got hold of poser 6 and I have not looked into what python can do with poser figures. Curious labs says that you can now access all of a poser figures propertys, etc with python (from web site). I wonder if a new rigging system could be made with python.

OK, speaking as a guy who is currently trying to create such a Python-assisted rig - I can categorically tell you that (a) Poser 6 does not give you access to everything in a figure and (b) there are some inherent problems with Python-assisted rigging in Poser. To fill you in on my current gripes, have a flick through the list below... 1. There is still no way to access all the rigging parameters via PoserPython. That is I cannot read or write rigs without reading/writing CR2 files (with all the parsing and file-based functionality that goes with it). 2. While one can set a script to be run when the figure is loaded into the scene - said script file MusT be in the default runtime. This means one cannot have a Python-assisted rig in any other Runtime bar the one under the Poser 6 directory. 3. Testing Python-assisted rigs is arduous at best, a bloody nightmare on average. One cannot edit the script "on the fly" but must make tweaks to the script in a separate application, unload & reload the figure in question, and then see how the changes worked out. Given the average figure loading time, this becomes tiresome very quickly! 4. The way one must structure the Python scripts to get this working is incredibly counter-intuitive to an artist (it's not the easiest to understand for me, and make my living by programming). As such, it is not very likely to be used... 5. Unless one is only controlling deformers, the script will need to be applied to the clothing as well. Even with deformers, there needs to be a custom pose/script for adding the clothing articles to the deformer's "influenced actors" list. This fact lessens the appeal significantly (i.e. without clothing support - why bother?). 6. Currently the method of accessing the dial values for an actor in the scripts is quite cumbersome and as such doesn't lend itself to an easy reading of how the script will work. What NEEDS to be done is for Curious Labs to add in expression support &/or the ability to embed python scripts into the figure CR2 (from a coding point of view - this is pretty much one and the same thing). Hell, should Curious Labs need direction on this issue - there are a tonne of examples out in the world of open source and I have done it for two custom applications requiring statistical formulae entered at runtime...

Hmmm embeding python code into the cr2. Um not up on cr2 files... but can you include comments into the cr2 file? The basic idea would be to have the python code commented out in the cr2 file. Then instead of using the poser library to load a figure into poser you would use a python script. It would look at the first comment line which would have um a tag (pscript) and look for the last comment line which would have a tag (/pscript)and then run the embeded script between the two after loading the figure.

Hmmm, two things wrong with that scenario - (a) It is a hack, and like all hacks, means it could be broken by any update CL decides to make; and (b) one cannot launch a python script from the library hence making it harder for the end-user to load your figure. Combine that with the fact that one cannot run pythono scripts outside the default runtime and that one cannot determine the exact location of the loaded CR2 to pass to the "pscript" reading function - and the idea (while not bad) is dead in the water due to faults in Poser (not in the idea itself). Sad really, because (done right) Python integration can make an application incredibly flexible. Look at all the cool stuff ockham has done with what they gave him. Imagine what would be possible with the right hooks into the Poser engine!

Attached Link: Project Human Beta

Quote Helgard= "Yes. Sixus1 can afford the bandwidth. And Sixus1 have a good team leader/project head. Sixus1 is not a community project, they are a company, and they make money. They may give their figures away for free but they do make money on the add-ons to pay for it. Personally, as much as I like and respect Sixus1 and the fact that they have made their own humans, those models are not advanced enough to beat Vicky or Jessi or James or Mike." There are several points that I would like to address. The original point of the first line of humans was mostly that we wanted figures that we could use to make characters sets for that were our own to avoid any problems with EULAs, licenses, etc..... And I am actually insulted when you say that Sixus1 is not a community, but merely a business. I would love for you to say that to people who come to our site, to the new friends that I have made there. To people who wish each other happy B-day and send each other Gift Certificates to people that they have never met and barely speak the same language that live on the other side of the world that they are part of nothing more than a business. Our community may be small, but that doesn't make it non-existant. We decided to make Project Human Open Source for those that want and desire human figures that they can make their own. We will be supplying bandwidth, a website and the base files for free. The download is for the final BETA, I do believe that Les is going to be tweaking some final JPs before the offical release, but if anyone would like to take a look...the Male and Female are both available at the link above. Also, the figures are completely uncompatible with DAZ or any other Poser figures, so we can freely give the permission for you to use them as you please. No one is saying that you have to use are figures and we aren't saying that they are better than everyone else's...they are different and they are going to be there for everyone to have the option to use. We hope that the new Project Human will foster freedom and that in turn, a new level of creativity. --Rebekah-- P.S. Sorry to get slightly off topic....

Knight: rats! I think I'll drown my sorrows in something sweet um like a bunch of krispy kreme donuts. Carbs and sugar are good for you!

Sorry, my apologies. My post, upon re-reading it now, sounds harsher than it was intended. I did not mean that you do not have a community, or that you were a business intended purely on profit. I do hold you and Les in the highest regard, and I am not trying break down your Project Human endeavour, or trying to say that it is not a worthwhile contribution to the community. I apologise for the tone of my post, and wish you all the success with your figures. Helgard

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Thanks. :) --Rebekah--

Maybe we are going about this the wrong way. There are a couple of dozen rigging systems out there that technically supercede the current boning rig that Poser uses. but the added spinal joints aren't a function of a new rig; that is actually the modeller's task, as they are the ones who arrange the mesh sections. Boning in Poser has to take that into account. Perhaps what we need to do is actually look at just how far we can shove the current rig forward. One model with the added torso flexibility. Once that particular part of the figure is tinkered into solid function, move onto the next problem area. This could be kept 'in the family' during development, and presented as a show piece once completed. If the current rig proves itself sufficient for the actual =armature= functionality, then it may be that we need to actually focus on other areas. Say perhaps advancing the boning to more of a 'woody' type armature, and actually developing a method of skinning the armature so that a secondary boning system articulated 'muscle' structures. Similar to JCM, but built in as a true function, not a hack. Or a redefinition of what a 'joint' actually is. Not so much throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but seeing if maybe there actually -is- a better fix than nuking the system

would this need fresh mesh, dale?

I don't think so (even though the query was not directed to me). If the current rigging system can support better armature functionality - which to some degree I believe it can - then there should be investment in that direction. This is why earlier I mentioned Cactus Dan's new CD Morph - which reacts to bone rotations. Brilliant! Poser already has something rudimentary to this - bulges. But they are very generalized 'muscle' structures. In reality, they are just a way to avoid crimps in the mesh during deformation. The key (as in all rigging systems) is to attain the type of deformation on the mesh that mimics the system desired - in our case, this is usually human musculature.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Here is a WIP of how Glamorous Jessi stands now, next to stock Jessi. Still a way to go, but I can see progress. ;-)

Main difference in her set up is I'm using JCJ (Joint controlled Joints) instead of V3's JCM (and Stock Jessi's nill) to help the bending. This is partly in a hope it will make for easier transferring to clothing, which can be extreammly hard to match when you have to recreate the morphs.

I only can work with the tools I have.

I agree with what Anton said, too much too fast could kill Poser. It is already EXTREAMLY complicated.

Message edited on: 05/04/2005 21:35

As always, Jim, you really are a master. Damn, you're good. 8-)

Hmmm - JCJ is an interesting concept. Anyone (Jim?) know of an article that talks about this or will I need to experiment a little to work them out? Watching closely :) EK

Lol, I just sent an IM asking for the same thing. Can't find one decent tutorial on the subject.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

I'm guessing it is just ERC with the target being a rotation/scale/translation channel rather than a morph channel. But given the relative inflexibility of controlling when ERC kicks in - I am curious to see how it works for joints.

Exactly. I create a ghost part and then ERC link it to a body parts rotation. I remove all the unneed channels (scale, other rotations, etc) from the new ghost part. I've been doing it for awhile, most of my newer skirts have JCJ to hook up a working thigh part (in addittion to a buttock part), for example.

So far I've linked them directly to the body part, I may have to hook some of them thru an intermediate channel to set a delay in where they start, I did a lot of that kinda stuff when I set up the cheongsam I sell at DAZ.

Big advantage in setting them up is you get instant feedback, it is just like working with magnets. I run them manually to work up the ERC ratio. They also seem to work much more "naturallly" than morphs, it always seems like the JCM morph is fighting the bending fall off zones.

Message edited on: 05/04/2005 22:41

Agree completely on the effects of the JCM's. Combined with the complications that arise with clothing - I tend to avoid them for all bar the essential parts (i.e. thigh squash, knuckle creases etc) and even then try to make them as minimal as possible. "Ghost parts" - are they creatable within the Poser setup room or does one need to do some CR2 trickery?

Yeah, the only thing you have to do pretty much is make sure that the group name in the clothing is the same as the group name of the bone (for example if you create an OBJ group named "skirt" you also have to name the bone "skirt"). Otherwise Poser puts unassigned polygons into a group called "Figure 1 Setup" and it becomes a separate prop.

I'm still going to argue that adding just a few more bones will help immensely! The meshes are already dense enough. Some refinements to grouping and boning can make a visual difference... as in the difference between regular action figures and superposeable action figures. As an example, look at Jame's knee and butt: If the knee had 2 bending points, it could accomodate the type of bending that real knees do (think of Japanese monks sitting between their feet). With a buttocks group, a leg which is going back ought to be able to morph to indicate the clenched muscles.

Elbows which have 2 bending points won't look like broken soda straws. This is a skeleton for James. In order to fit within the skin, and stay there, the knee has to work like this, with bone crunching bone: If the knee had two joints, the bones could act like real bones with a nice tidy patella fronting them. (Note that I don't use precanned poses, or limits, but with 3 1/2 years of life drawing as well as rock climbing and dancing, I have a fair idea of how the human body moves.) Carolly

Good points, Carolly. So as a very rough spec for re-rigging, we are talking about something like this: 1) Fully articulated hands and feet (with the feet having a global 'toe bending' morph associated with the ball of the foot, for ease of posing the toes globally [like Judy has]. Perhaps extra controls like the fingers 'clench' and 'spread', to curl the toes globally and collapse them inward towards each other, to facilitate using high heels or tapered front footwear). 2) Adding a second bone at the knee, to move the actual hinging action to the backside of the joint, so that instead of a single hinge that pinches itself at extreme fold, there would be a double hinge with either locks to prevent the two joints from folding past 00 degrees with IK enabled (or a reset pose to correct 'shattered knee syndrome'...good for some fight scenes, not good othertimes). 3) Increased spinal flexibility. Currently what we have is hip, abdomen, chest, and neck (and in some cases, neck 2). That basically puts a hinge at L5 (lumbar5, at the top of the pelvis), around T12 (bottom of the ribcage), around C7-T1 (top of the ribcage), and the neckhead, which usually sits around C1. With maybe another bone around C3-C4. There should be at least 1, possibly 2, added bones between ribs and hips. The thoracic part of the column is the most rigid, but even that has some side to side bending of a few degrees (but that -should- be doable with morphs that are linked to the model section's controls). 4) One extra bone in the elbow region to perform the same function as the knee, in preventing mesh breaking by creating a 'space' for the mesh to fold into without overlapping itself. 5) One or more added bones into the shoulder area to allow for more realistic posing and motion at extreme angles. 6?) Add a bone for each breast in the female, to provide an articulation point that would function as the mass center (just a thought; this may or may not be feasible, or desirable) 7?) A bone for the jaw, so that you have actual articulation of the face, rather than morph based deformation (again, this may or may not be desirable or better). What else can people think of? Once we have a possible spec regarding what we can do with the current rig, then we can isolate the trouble areas and look at specific solutions. Oh bloody hell. Soft IK. Being able to specify a joint as being the 'end' of the IK chain (and all other children taking their cues from that designated joint) would be invaluable for the animators, at least.

The current IK system does this - albeit Hard IK. The goal and chain from it are specified in the figure{section of the CR2. I think your 7-points are a good indication of what needs to be done. A jaw bone would be desirable. It alone would remove a large number of morphs that used to achieve the same thing. If done properly, the results would be more anatomically realistic. I think the problem with the knee isn't that it is a space-hinge joint. It is a sliding joint (the patella). If you study how your knee bends, the patella slides up and down with attached ligament (patellar ligament). If you have "Human Anatomy for Artists", you can see this on page 35.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

To add: the space-hinge joint idea is a good one since these joints are not point bending. They are bones rolling along their wide surfaces. The design, as it were, accomodates the large muscle mass and strong ligamentation attached to these joints. If there is a 'point' at the radius of bend, it is not centered at the specific bone-bone interface.

My point is this: in order to improve the rigging and realistic anatomical contortions of human beings requires some studying up on human anatomy. In order to accomplish this means knowing the structures that culminate in those exterior features we recognize as proper.

Message edited on: 05/05/2005 12:22

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Increased spinal flexibility. Currently what we have is hip, abdomen, chest, and neck (and in some cases, neck 2). That basically puts a hinge at L5 (lumbar5, at the top of the pelvis), around T12 (bottom of the ribcage), around C7-T1 (top of the ribcage), and the neckhead, which usually sits around C1. With maybe another bone around C3-C4. There should be at least 1, possibly 2, added bones between ribs and hips. The thoracic part of the column is the most rigid, but even that has some side to side bending of a few degrees (but that -should- be doable with morphs that are linked to the model section's controls).

Along that note, it would also be neat to include dials that split poses between several levels. For example, when you turn the head of a figure left or right, divide the turn between the head and neck sections as it would happen naturally.

Message edited on: 05/05/2005 12:28

One thing to remember about doing things like double jointed knees (and V3's buttock parts)with the current Poser setup is that childern parts can only bend their parents, they can't bend anything past that. When you set up a figure (like V3) with buttock parts the thigh bending (now) can't extend into the hip, you have to stop your fall off zones short of the hip mesh, else you get creases where the bending stops abruply. I don't think the answer is more bones, myself, it is better control on the bones we have. ;-) E.K.- I did a mini-tutorial on making ghost parts in the Clothing & Characters forum at PoserPros.

Well, this was just a starting point...=anytime= you start talking tech, there tends to be a pendulum swing into the hyperbolic regions. The high end bone-muscle-skin systems would be nice to play with, but I doubt most of us could afford it, and fewer could ever master it... :P although I will argue about the torso needing a couple of extra articulation points to get a better bend sweep to it. And an actual jaw bone. However, taking the list as a rough, and assuming they can't pull something like softskin dynamics and sliding joint capability out of the hat affordably, what changes to the current rig would need to be implemented? Some alteration of the parent-child logic? Fall-off zones that can overlap, or interact with each other? If the current rig just won't hold up longer, how could things be set up to keep the backwards compatibility? Some type of metatag in the cr2 or obj of newer content to tell the system to use a new rig, and lack of that tag enables the old system? We all should remember that P6 was said to be a service release, with the major changes to the code slated for P7 (and with the new version of Firefly, we got some significant goodies anyway). CLSteve would almost have to be asking regarding the changes for the next version. The animation & rigging system is probably the last untouched artifact in the program (save for the Kai Krause interface, and even that has been spruced up a tad). They might just want enough people clamoring for something a little more capable, to justify the time expense in coding it... :)

I really don't think the jaw is necessary or particularily doable ... It is like the webbed fingers thing that no one has been able to do at all.

Jaw is easily do-able, but the problem comes when you have to set up the morphs for MIMIC. It can be done, but much easier to do the jaw bone movement with a morph like the P6 figures. And the webbed hand has been done. I have one that I downloaded as a freebie from here some time ago.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Any idea where the webbed fingers are since I know a pile of people were looking for it over the years :)

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=37163

The jaw in that skull is a separate articulated part... it can chew, or laugh or whatever, but there are no phonemes for mimic. (The skeleton is in the store, and works quite nicely, but a tweak or two is needed for close fits.) There are other models with a separate jaw, too. I'm thinking of horses and such. So, the boning can't be a problem. In fact, if the jaw WAS a separate piece, we could have more life-like movements even with skin on top! Carolly

Carolly, I did an experiment with a jaw bone, and it means that each phenome for mimic has to be spread over two morphs, just way too much hassle to make them speak. It is not impossible, and I think Little Dragon has actually done this on one of his figures.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Since Little Dragon has added mimic capabilities to just about everything under his fingers... including Mike the TV... maybe we should get his opinion as to whether it is worth the effort. It will be more work, but will the results look better or offer more flexibility or realism? Or will it just be a pain in the kazoo? Also... is mimic compatibility all that necessary... aren't there other speech programs? Carolly

Maybe the question should be wether or not Mimic 23 (which in the minds of most who want actual speech out of their figures has become entangled with DAZ and Poser as 'the standard'), with a custom configuration file, could deal with it efficiently.

Well for skeleton's it is good but when you get into skinned models there is a problem. The old sea serpent at DAZ has a jaw set up but it basically sort of fakes things and you cna't really do that with human's. I am curious on if it can be done but I just not sure.

I'd say that the jaw is the least of our concerns. Shoulders, elbows, knees, back, and neck must be the main areas of focus since these are in desperate need of fixing.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I had a whole dissertation set to post, thought I posted it and of course it got munged.

We want better rigging of characters for what purpose?
Poser can do some great stills.
Is ANIMATION is the next paradigm for Poser?

If so, do we need to shift our mindset and say, we want a better program for the ease of use in animation.
If that's the case we want characters that are going to be easily posed and rigged for animation. Is this the same model target goal as the artist who needs a 3D mannequin to paint over?
If we get the nicely bent elbows and knees, etc.,so be it.
Will this shift mean more DYNAMIC type clothing?
Will this shift change the types of users that move on and upgrade to Poser 7?
How will this affect Poser's position in the market?
The animation mindset may 'scare off' some users. They may not wish to upgrade. They may shift to DazStudio (familiar content). Some may say why stick with Poser and 'trade up" to the more PRO packages. (Who knows how the market is going to be in the next three years? There may be irresistable deals for the other packages in the future.)

Dont you hate these crossroads?

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Rigging affects both posing (stills) and animation. An incorrectly deformed knee is still incorrect (and more painfully visible) in a still than in animation. At least in animation, some of these incongruities can be glossed over by motion. Not so in stills. They are ever-present for all to see forever. And no one's gonna tell me that Poser elbows, without master modifications, aren't sharp needly things that look about as real as Mickey Mouse. The application is improving. Its feature set grows. The current set of figures is very high quality and continually moving towards realism. Yet you can spot a Poser figure a mile away (unless it has been lovingly caressed for months by a dedicated master). You can spot it in the bends, in the shoulders, in the deformations.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

dlfurman; Why not? Poser's days as just an artist's Woody on a CRT are long gone; they vanished when P4 came out, with transparency and the animation support it had. The number of people who actually create a scene -just- as a reference piece to take into Photoshop or Painter and create 'real art' are actually pretty few and far between. The dynamic cloth and hair add to the incentive to experiment; I wasn't overly interested in animation myself until I saw what Phoul could do with P4 and Vue 4. Several people have been attracted to the animation pallette by the requirements of the dynamic props. Like kuroyume said; improvements in the rigging would benefit everyone (I certainly wouldn't miss the mesh breaks), and if the app can turn out better animations than before, then it will be that much more likely to be used. Everyone knows the tightrope that CL is actually trying to walk; ease of use for newbies, and enough meat for a pro to sink their teeth into. Lights, cloth, and hair have all been addressed; the only subsystem that has been fundamentally unchanged is the animation setup. If we can have our cake and eat it too, lets.

Nature Stages tools inside Poser, improbe the render speed.

adh3d website

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2248430

Yes the Great Agitator (self named) is back. See the attached link. All of this stuff, plus an enhanced rigged figure. Would you want Poser 7 to be 1st part the transistion of Poser to a new level of application? What I mean is Poser 7 will have NEW code and from THIS version, better enhancements come forth? We come back to this question (some ideas in the attached thread) how much are you willing to forego? Can't get something for nothing.

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Attached Link: http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=40497

Talking about knees, here is a link to the latest WIP on Glamorous Jessi.

5 JCJs, 2 JCMs, 1 Delay ERC in each leg, see what you think of the results. All automatic operation, of course.

Message edited on: 05/07/2005 18:58

great reads, guys.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Good grief! This is complicated stuff. It looks as though, from what I've seen in other places, that some things could be improved without needing to change the internals of Poser. A figure with multiple groups/bones at a (human) joint which can be posed with one dialset. The later figures acquired buttock groups. Some of the movement of the (human) hip joint should be in the thigh-group, some in the buttock-group. The shoulder area is more complicated, but the same could be done. The tech is already there to have a set of dials on the "Body" which control specific joints, instead of jumping between body parts. It's a big job, I don't know if anyone would want to try it, but can't somebody hack the mesh out of Vicky for the knee area, and just see if it could work with new grouping and bones.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: "The Rig" -- CLSteve wants ideas