Attached Link: http://www.zygote.com/

For sign up their newsletter you get 2 Human figures for free. The files are in obj format. No textures and material. Not very useful in this stage, but maybe someone will make them poser ready ;-) Mazak

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. Mazak

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Thanks for the heads up, but I get an error when I try to sign up :(

I was able to sign up, but can't find the download. Where is it?

Found it. Thanks for the link. :)

You get a confirm e-mail from Zygote. At Profile update you can download your figures. Mazak

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How useable are these?

Obj file? And no textures? What can I do with this? O.o

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

How can these figures be rigged in the setup room of P5-P6 to make them usable in poser. Also, things like the teeth and tongue will need to be modeled for them, wouldn't they?

Check all the groups; if they're un-named, rename them according to the standard Poser hierarchy. Export the obj file out of Poser, to a folder in the Geometry folder. Then just edit the two reference lines in some cr2 file to point at this new obj file, and you're in like Flint.

I don't think these obj files are grouped...

The male contain 9 material groups, the femail 14, no teeth or tongues however. They're also fairly high poly, 38,000 for for the female. They do look quite promising though.

Then just edit the two reference lines in some cr2 file to point at this new obj file, and you're in like Flint. Nope, it's not quite that simple. Using a CR2 from another object only works if joints are in exactly the same place (such as clothing that fits the figure it's created for). For a totally new human character the joint centers and falloff zones will probably all have to be created fresh. And that's probably the most time consuming part of creating a figure.

They probably modelled the figures with various groups similar to Poser groups, but they somehow deleted whatever group names they used, so now almost everything is lumped under "skin". That means it will be alot of work for whoever has to do the joints. Maybe Zygote will sell these two figures as poseable, after the free download period ends.

The problem is going to be whether any one who rigs it is going to be allowed to redistribute the new obj with the CR2.

Right, you'd have to do two things ... (1) Distribute an RT Encoder or UVS set from UV Mapper. Either way would require that the person has the original OBJ file. (2) Include instructions on where to locate the OBJ file in order to work properly with the CR2.

Plus I would imagine that you'd have to get Zygote to agree to that. Daz is their spin-off but they may have different ideas :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Right ... I'd ask their permission first. Of course, they may already have intentions of doing that anyway!

according to them they are making poser versions of their characters. They will be free to who buys the male character pack ( yeah that $14000 one) but I am sure that they will be available to teh public once done but who know's at what price.

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www.3rddimensiongraphics.net

 

This is exiting. Bothe have ALL their external anatomy. I'm wondering if you can pull the rigging off a character in the set up room and tweek it to fit. Thanks for sharing the info on these! I can't wait to see who gets them rigged first and into use in poser. (Happy happy joy joy)

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

"Both have ALL their external anatomy." Without trying to be too crude, the price you've always had to pay to get female genetalia on a Zygote figure has always been one that would make a Washington Embassy Row call girl blush.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Imckenzie Hahaha. So true!

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

Interesting. Since these are modelled with their arms down, in a more realistic pose, I wonder how they'd respond to Poser rigging? They should work better as far as shoulder bending goes, but are there some Poser features which require the "daVinci" (arms out) default pose? And is that some of the old Poser hair I see on the woman?

Yes it is. femaleHair104, more usually known as Female Hair 1. Views courtesy of Kawecki's Prop Viewer (freebie).

On the subject of anatomy, the female has well detailed internal reproductive anatomy as well as external. Cheers Ian

wow ... great figures! Thanks for the Link Mazak! I'm sure they will be poser ready within a short time ;) Greets Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Those models look realy great!And they are not extremelly hi resolution but still very well done & smooth! I would love to see a poser version! Althought this should need Zygote permission for sure... pitklad

"I would love to see a poser version! Althought this should need Zygote permission for sure..." Using RT Encoder, as sugested by Deecey, you would not neeed any permision from Zygote, as the only stuff that would be distributed would be stuff you had made your self. Hoever only people who downloaded the figures from Zygote would be able to use it, as I understand this is a limited time offer, so there would be a problem with new users getting the obj files.

I still think it might be advantageous to wait ... Zygote may be doing the rigging themselves and may make it available eventually. If we have community folks doing it, there could be several different versions and nothing standardized, unless someone steps up to claim it right away and follow it through. An "official" version of these models might stand a better chance for community support, though! Just my own humble opinion ...

IIRC, wasn't there some issues and an agreement had to be made with Daz before folks could start using Mover (and later RTE)? I'd be careful. You're still distributing their proprietary data (or a "derivitave"), even if it's encrypted. Especially, if, as someone said, they're going to release their own Poser versions as "gifts" to people who buy their mega-dollar packages. Someone can have at it for their own private use but recalling all the issues with Daz over IP, I wouldn't be so quick to assume it's ok to distribute something like this without their OK.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Yup, that too lmckenzie. Chances are Zygote already has plans for these models and I bet a poseable version is already planned anyway.

It may get interesting. Since their offspring (Daz) has branched off into Bryce and Daz Studio, are the parents going to ease back into the Poser figure market? Is E-Frontier in on this (they talked about "professional" applications)? One can imagine a new line of high-end, anatomically accurate Poser figures, priced perhaps somewhere in the vast range between $70 and Zygote's current $1000+ line. An interesting thought anyway.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I think we see the same possibilities. 8-)

Attached Link: http://www.zygote.com/newsletter.php

Ok. We've been considering extending our offering and making these figures some sort of Open Source project. Currently you can use these for personal projects but it might make sense to put these in the hands of the community and allow anyone to make commercial products. We'd like to hear your thoughts on how we should proceed. Sincerely, Zygote Media Group

That's extremely generous!!!! Wow! It would make sense to coordinate who would do the joints and CR2, UV Mapping, etc. Otherwise there might be ten different joint setups and ten different UV map configurations. 8-)

Open Source project would be a great idea! The mesh is great and I'm sure that if a team of people gather this will end up with a great result! pitklad

Even if just for education purposes, I think that people who are wanting to learn how to rig humans could have alot of valueable experience on these as that they are something different. It is always interesting and informative to see how meshe are designed, shaped, etc. Even if you just downlaod them for reference, they are invaluable.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Count me in as one who REALLY wants to learn how to rig a human. BUt I don't think you'd want to use my final result quite yet. ROFL

Absolutely a good idea. The greater the freedom of the community to use a figure the better, particularly given the often all too limited options available at present. These figure meshes are also low enough poly that they can be used to a greater degree for custom figure work, expanding yet again the overall potential for diversity available to the community as a whole. in short: hey, the more possible substitutes for the mil folk, the better.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Yeah, I suppose you do have a point there. This does open up quite a possibility for TONS of characters, for sure!

nice! if they make these Open Source like the Project Human line, then all the merrier :)

Fourth, Actually, although two others (both started well before Sixus') have yet to be completed and released.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Open Source project If you are serious, this is the way to structure it. Let the community vote on five team leaders, one each for rigging, texturing, clothing, add-ons and hair. The community can then apply to the team leaders to become part of that team. So the team leaders co-ordinate between each other the various stages, and they each run their own team. So each team will work something like this: Rigging - say there are ten members, they each make a wish list of what this model must do, for instance, walk designer compatible, MIMIC compatible, etc. They decide on a list of morphs, functions (like moving toes - yes/no, etc) and then the team leader combines these lists into a workable plan, which he sends to the other team leaders for comment. The work is then handed out, this person does those morphs, these people make the CR2/rig, these do the ERC afterwards, etc. The other team leaders also make their own lists of product specs, like texture map sizes, etc. They can divide up work, like these people make eyes, these people make the skin textures and these people make the make-up overlays or alien textures, or whatever mad scheme comes to mind. Once veryone has agreed on the features, a timetable is set up, like rigging three weeks, texturing three weeks, etc, while other people like the hair and clothes group can start working on stuff almost immediately. Seeing as it is a community product, it will obviously be free, and the clothing creators can pass stuff onto the texturing team for extra textures, etc. The add-ons team makes a bunch of useful start up props and additions, like glasses, rings, necklace, and maybe a few big freebies, like a weapon, or something really essential, like a lawnmower (with animated pose files), lol. This way we won't end up with ten different CR2 files and 5 different UV maps. To make it more interesting, if there is enough interest, this could be made into a friendly competition, two groups working independantly on two different set-ups, and afterwards a vote on which figure was the most succesful/innovative/useful, etc.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

UV Mapping and Texturing might be best split up as well. Someone who can create great textures might not necessarily know how to do a good UV map -- or vice versa. 8-)

I say simply release the mesh, and let folks do whatever rigging and modifications they want. Establishing a software design model strikes me as counter intuitive to the open creation process, and limits the potential for the figures.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

The first step would be to name this project and to give the poor characters names, or if there are going to be two groups, two sets of names. My first nomination: Rocky Horror 3D Show (In just seven days I can make you a man. lol) Seriously: Project Hominidae (latin for human-like) or Hominid (human-ness) [species Sapiens, genus Homo, family Hominidae, order Primates, class Mammalia] Names: Use the words man and woman, or boy and girl, or male and female, but in another language. For instance, the Sotho words would be Mosadi and Mushimani, or the Italian - Ragazzo and Donna. We have enough other language speakers to find cool names.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

I personally agree with ynsaen on the release concept. If you make them available for development of commercial products you create a potential for a nearly infinite variety of figures, morphs, etc. -R

Yes, and when you make a texture, for which one of the 50 UV maps will your texture be for, and if you make clothes, for which CR2 will they be made. And if you make a set of Poses, for which version of the model will they work on? That means these models will have very little standardised product, and you and I both know that a model without product to support it is a dead model that will never take off.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

I agree on the release concept also. What a great opportunity for those that don't know how to, to be able to learn :) It's more then just a "rush to market" this is a chance to learn something...sometimes much more important then yet another commercial product :) The community has enough cliques, I'm sure they will all develop their own "teams" to work on something soon enough.

"when you make a texture, for which one of the 50 UV maps will your texture be for" Either the one you prefer or your own version -- that's the point. IT is the standardization of figures that is the flaw and the limitation. We don't want standardization. We want an ever increasing diversity. "if you make clothes, for which CR2 will they be made." SO we work with structures that are anathema to our particular viewpoint? WHile you and I share some elements in common, the use of python scripting in figures is excessively annoying to me -- and ERC in figure rigging creates more problems than it solves, by me. A community apporach such as you suggest might create an advanced figure -- but one that I wouldn't support or use. Through my concept, the market will decide which adaptations and variants are most popular -- and note the plural. Not a single figure -- which is against the fundamental concept of as many as possible -- but a variety of them. " That means these models will have very little standardised product, and you and I both know that a model without product to support it is a dead model that will never take off." I do not know this. It is not fact, it is theory. Unsupported theory with weaknesses in the fundamental assertions that underlie it. We have a "standardized" product already. The objective is to stop that. Standardization is a limiting factor -- in nature, in business, and in life. By doing it openly, one could suggest that several teams do exactly what you describe, creating variants of the figures that each appeal to differnt segments of the marketplace. That's good. Trying to recreate what is already present? In some vain hope of replacing it? No -- that is not forward momentum and growth. And as for dead -- if a merchant has a figure they love and understand -- something they've put hard work into -- they will support it. And support is all it takes to make a figure usable. So no -- it's not dead. Indeed, it's more alive than ever.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I do see ynsaen and relik's point. One of the big complaints that we hear from those outside the Poser community is that all Poser art looks the same. Now we have a chance to get some real individuality into Poser art. That could very well take it to the next level! Not only that, but with open source geometry it will also be easy to create clothing for your own custom figure as well.

"Once veryone has agreed on the features" In this community, one is assured that Everyone will never agree. "Seeing as it is a community product, it will obviously be free" This assumes far too much, and immediately removes some of the best folks at this sort of work from involvment. "This way we won't end up with ten different CR2 files and 5 different UV maps. " Lord, I hope not. I'd like to see 50 different Cr2 files and 30 different UV maps. Which is the point to what I'm suggesting. That is diversity. That is positive change, and allows for what is at the ultimate core of what everyone involved in this is really all about: Individual creative expression. Originality. Difference.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

We have had a hard time getting the whole open-source concept out there and understood. Our figures and files go up officially (out of BETA) next week and I am trying to write up something that basically states that our Open Source figures aren't trying to be the definative Poser humans, merely resources for the community to use. Anyway, I say the more the merrier. :) --Rebekah--

I like the idea of a diverse approach, frankly.

I just realized this is like the grandmother of the Unimesh. Look at the ears, back of the ehad, hands, feet, breasts, etc. MilPeople came from her or something close to her. I forgot they started as Zygote meshes. Actually that makes sense since most of the Daz stuff came from Zygote meshes. Loading up Zygote woman, then V2 and then unimesh you can see the progression from then to now and how the mesh was altered. I always wondered what the original seed meshes looked like. There are like the Adam and Eve of Poser in a way. Cool. She's the "OrigiMesh". :) Or close to being the original. Zygote of course own it and can do what they want with their own mesh. A tremendously generous act by Zygote if they make them open source. very generous indeed.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

the use of python scripting in figures is excessively annoying to me Name me one figure, just one, except for mine, that uses Python scripting. >and ERC in figure rigging creates more problems than it solves Ha ha ha. What ERC are you talking about. The only ERC I see in the figures available now is the full body morphs. And the ERC that allows both eyes to move together. And the ERC that allows the "grasp" dial to work. Why does that create more problems than it solves? You are going to hate my figures, lol, they are ERC'd to the MAXIMUM. >might create an advanced figure -- but one that I wouldn't support or use. If the figure is advanced, you won't support it. I don't understand the logic of that. Are you saying that if the converse was true, and it wasn't advanced, that you would support it? > That means these models will have very little standardised product, and you and I both know that a model without product to support it is a dead model that will never take off. >I do not know this. It is not fact, it is theory. Unsupported theory with weaknesses in the fundamental assertions that underlie it. We have a "standardized" product already. The objective is to stop that. Standardization is a limiting factor -- in nature, in business, and in life. Um, that is fact. Run through the market place. The most successful models have the most add-on product. That is not an unsupported theory, that is basic common statistical research that anyone who can type "Vicky", "Mayadoll" and "Possette" into the search box in the marketplace can do. >By doing it openly, one could suggest that several teams do exactly what you describe, creating variants of the figures that each appeal to differnt segments of the marketplace. Yep, if you read my post again, you will see that at the end I said that if there were enough people you could have two teams. And by logical extension, if there were enough people you could have ten teams. But I doubt that you will get more than two teams of people who would work on this and actually get a fully working, textured, usable model finished. (Please prove me wrong and get ten teams and ten models). >That's good. Trying to recreate what is already present? Ynsaen, you know a little of my working principles, and I can assure that I have never intended to recreate what is already present (not one of the products I have made has an equivalent existing product, and I have three completed products that I didn't release, because someone made a similar product before I finished mine). Every model I make has a new feature that has NEVER been done in Poser (hence we now have working tank tracks in Poser, etc). >In some vain hope of replacing it? No -- that is not forward momentum and growth. And I would never ever try to replace what is there. If a model has a purpose, such as standing naked in a temple, then why would I want to replace it. But if the naked model in the temple can't do yoga without breaking her legs, then I will make a model that can do yoga. This new model doesn't replace anything, it has different features and is meant for a different purpose.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Ok You two are not allowed to be on the same team. :)

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Lol, Anton, me and Ynsaen have exactly the same final goal, but we just have diametrically opposed views of how to reach that goal. (and in case anyone was wondering, we are not fighting, we e-mail each other with arguments like this all the time. Soon I will convince Ynsaen that there are only two ways of doing things, the wrong way and my way, lol)

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

:)

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Has anyone considered that here we have the perfect test bed objects to apply the current rigging to, and any enhancements and changes in the 'standard' method, and use that as our foundation to request changes for P7 by? If Zygote makes these open source, then we have a quality mesh available to all to start with.

Helgard -- I have to say that just because someone else did a product like one you have finished is no reason not to release yours as well ....

Open Source project is be a great idea :D Thank you very much Bryan Brandenburg and Zygote!! Mazak

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"Openness" is good. 'Let a thousand flowers blossom,' or whatever it was Mao said. At the same time, one of the reasons Linux still isn't a significant threat to Windows on the desktop is the plethora of versions. It may be heresy but sometimes, you can have too much choice. This isn't the bottomless market for automobiles or music. There are already a number of niche figures out there that never ended up getting any significant support. Will three or four more, all requiring different textures, clothing, etc. really be that much more successful? Do we really need a Beta vs. VHS vs. who knows what else and wait to see which one(s) wither on the vine? If Zygote comes through then anyone is free to do whatever they want with these but personally, I vote for some kind of organization, even the barely controlled chaos that passes for organization in the Poser world. Give me one rabbit that I know I can feed and clothe easily, not Flopsy, Mopsy, Cottontail and Peter each with their own unique traits and one dress apiece. Let a thousand flowers blossom but let's have one good old standard American Beauty rose too. "She's the "OrigiMesh"." In which case, she should be named Lucy There are already at least two Eves and besides, most of aren't in Kansas :-)

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Open source would be cool :)

There's already Sixus1's Adam so that name is taken for the male. The one thing that I'd like to point out for ysaen and Helgard is that you need to keep in mind that there is a whole bunch of people who would love to use these models but don't have the software to do the additional modeling as well as the skill to do the rigging, mapping, and texturing. Having these things be consistent is more likely to inspire other content creators to create freebies for them.

Okay... about the open source idea: Choose one, and choose carefully. Or write one, and write it even more carefully. Otherwise you could end up losing control of the thing entirely (ex. The BSD inetd coders had pretty much gave Microsoft an entire TCP/IP networking stack for 2000/XP/2003, which is now pretty much proprietary MS property as currently used within Windows.) One other thing to consider... have you run this past one of the legal types on staff in Orem yet? I mean, if enough of these meshes match perfectly w/ meshes that Zygote sold/granted rights to when DAZ spun off, there is the possibility of some legal nastiness there. Not saying there's anything actionable, let's be clear about that - but a little legal checking/CYA could go a long way to prevent future hose-ups. Once all that's done, I'll look forward to adding goodies to my Runtime. To all the other folks: As for forming a group to determine rigging and UV Maps and such? Well, y'all know what a hippo is, right? It's a greyhound built by committee. Ynsaen is right - let the market find the best solution. :) /P

I've thought about whether DAZ has a claim to these models too. As far as letting the market find the best solution, I think that's ok to a certain extent, but if these models are being given away for free, I don't see that as a given that everything derived for free should be for sale. I definitely agree with Helgard...

It doesn't necessarily have to be for sale, but open source is as open source does. The best parallel would be to look at the Linux market - the latest and greatest Linux kernel can be downloaded for nada at www.kernel.org and immediately modified and re-sold if it trips your trigger to do so. OTOH, the distros (RedHat, SuSE, Mandrake, etc) make money from one of two things: services and/or or add-ons that give value to the package as a whole. Same story here - the base mesh is free and anyone can (depending on how the license is written) add stuff to it that makes it worth selling (if they desire...) /P Right now we see folks selling textures for Kozaburo's stuff, so selling derivations of free items isn't exactly a new phenomenon.

Hmm, Lucy, Lucie who can take Lucy's textures (with a bit of tweaking), Lucille who can wear Lucie's clothing but has her own textures, Loosey, who's unique unto herself. And, of course, Bruce who can wear all the girl's clothing. Should be interesting.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

One thing about open source though (depending on the license type) is that someone can possibly buy an open-sourced item, and quickly re-sell or re-distribute the OSS parts of it freely and legally if they desired to (esp. if the license is the GNU GPL)... kinda deters for-sale "characters" and morphs right then and there, doesn't it? /P

Companies like Zygote that sell/liscence meshes have pretty clear procedures for handling the sale of meshes to developers, all set forth by attornies in advance, all very proper and official. This is what they do so they would know what they can and can't do. Besides there is so much crossover between Daz/Zygote that if it wasn't possible, this post wouldn't be here having been a moot point years ago. Daz is really up on protecting their meshes and I am sure they can easily tell the difference between their modified mesh and Zygotes mesh. And since (Bryan?) is working their I am sure they have each others numbers on speed dial anyway.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Understood, but I've seen too many legal hose-ups between folks who were real close friends in business. For example, a little lawsuit known as SCO Group v. Novell, going on right now over what parts of UNIX V SCO actually bought, and what parts Novell can do whatever they please with, etc. Most of SCO's board consists of folks who were either former Novell employees or were damned good friends with the Novell brass (the bulk of Novell is based in Orem, UT, while SCO Group is based in Lindon, UT.) The real ugly part is, this little lawsuit was thought to have been avoided years ago when UNIX V was sold to SCO, and is based on a far smaller percentage of code compared to the whole, than the percentage of mesh we're looking at here.

That, and neither of us knows whether Bryan (or whoever, but I believe it's Bryan) is/was/will-be in contact w/ Zygote's legal department on this, or if he's only out exploring new avenues for Zygote's revenue stream. I'm just asking if he would make sure it's all nice and legal first so as to avoid inadvertantly putting Zygote in any legal snarls that would require me and 10^23 other people to go back into the Runtime and start tearing things out.

/P

Message edited on: 05/19/2005 10:35

Good points. 8-)

Which is the reason to be very careful about having these figures mapped or rigged for DAZ compatibility...

Sigh, why did I mention Linux. Now, Peng will be relating the Sith, Britney's pregnancy and heartburn to Torvald's benighted OS :-) I'm kidding of course, there are definitely parallels. I doubt any of us knows the true nature of the Zygote-Daz thing, independent company, wholly owned subsidiary, Colombian drug money laundering operation or what. Prudence suggests making darned sure of the situation before jumping into this.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I guess we'll see what happens. I am sure by now both Daz and Zygote have reread this and both know how to use the phone, so we'll see what happens down the road.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Attached Link: http://projecthuman.sixus1.com/

Since we are talking about lisences I would like to get some feedback on ours. Les based it on the open gaming license because is truely fitted our intent the best and was in his opinion one of the most plain-speak ones that he has seen. He also said that the Open Gaming License is based of off the BSD license, for what that is worth. Thanks ahead of time for anyone who takes a look. --Rebekah--

Rebekah, email sent on my review of your license :)

I will take a look at it. :) Thanks. --Rebekah--

Just wanted to let you know that we've been moving forward on this with Zygote for some time. Early on there were some posts about making our characters free and we thought about how to approach that request. We're carefully planning on an "open source" initiative with some high profile community members heading up the organization and direction with more getting involved every day. We're excited about this and are really looking forward to seeing what you guys can do.

I also wanted to say that we've been very supportive of Sixus1media and their initiative and will continue to be. Les will definitely be involved and we'll make an official announcement very soon.

Here's the bottom line. Every once in awhile there is an idea whose time has come. We believe what will happen next will forever change this community for the better.

Thank you once again for your support of Poser and the Poser community,

Steve Yatson
e-frontier

I've said this before elsewhere (and tried to earlier but the post got eaten): Sixus1's project human package is a very cool deal. I've snagged them, and I've considered doing some things with them. And I still may. My particularly limitation with them is they are too high poly for the uses that I have in mind. But that's me. It might not apply to someone else.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

" Here's the bottom line. Every once in awhile there is an idea whose time has come. We believe what will happen next will forever change this community for the better." So when will Poser itself have an open-source version and/or a Linux version? ;) Kidding; I already know the answer... my only concern is on the legalities of the whole thing, since this community has enough problems as it is with occasional "high profile community members" getting caught selling a blatant copyright infringement or two. The last thing we need is for one of the really big boys to get snarled up in something that would drag Poserdom into a nasty bout of uncertainty. As long as the legal departments of all respective companies involved are cool with it, I'm cool with it. All I want to know is that it's been looked at and called good and legal by y'all (since you've jumped in), Zygote, and DAZ' legal departments, and what restrictions if any are involved. After that, let's open-source the beasties. Rebekah - I'm still wading through it, but so far, so good as a light once-over. Not an ambulance chaser of any stripe, but I'll compile my notes and send 'em along when I get done with it :) /P

"Um, that is fact. Run through the market place. The most successful models have the most add-on product. That is not an unsupported theory, that is basic common statistical research that anyone who can type "Vicky", "Mayadoll" and "Possette" into the search box in the marketplace can do." That is an observation and sampling, not a factual establishment of a market truth. Research can be used to substantiate fact, but here alone is one of the least useful places for that sampling, and only shows what is -- not what could be. Shame on you, H, lol. You know better than that!!! "Ha ha ha. What ERC are you talking about. The only ERC I see in the figures available now is the full body morphs. And the ERC that allows both eyes to move together. And the ERC that allows the "grasp" dial to work. Why does that create more problems than it solves? You are going to hate my figures, lol, they are ERC'd to the MAXIMUM." Well, since the subject comes up -- supporting a figure with ERC requires additional compensations and work, increasing the time involved and increasing the costs involved in doing so. It's not only the older, more established merchants that are required to come on board, but also the newer, less establsihed ones that need to make a name for themselves -- increasing the complexity of creting support items for a figure is not the route to go -- you want to decrease them. I haven't seen yours yet, Helgard -- but yes, there are other figures out there that use python...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Dear Community,

Our law firm employees nearly 100 attorneys and specializes in intellectual property. They assure us we can proceed with this offering with great confidence. We have complete ownership of the models we are offering as does eFrontier.

Bryan Brandenburg
CEO
Zygote Media Group

Message edited on: 05/19/2005 13:48

Very interesting (I wish there was a way to quickly bookmark threads without leaving some meaningless text like this...).

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

Ironbear, I don't see any evidence of these conspiracy theories...

'tis not a conspiracy, 'tis business. :)

Think back to the IE vs. Netscape... that's what keeps popping up in my head as the day wears on.

Zygote gets to undercut their own spin-off company and carve themselves a healthy piece of the Poserdom pie, while CL doesn't have to consider crawling back to DAZ and playing nice after that little Poser 5 tiff.

Personally, competition is cool - got no problems at all with it. OTOH, I don't want to see Poserdom get hosed over small overlooked things from external players out to increase their marketshare (we do a good enough job of screwing ourselves on occasion, thanks.) It's good to see Zygote's CEO sticking its neck out and saying that it's all nice and legal... now if DAZ has no problems with, great (obviously CL is happy about it, but prolly won't assume any legal hazard - then again they don't really have to.)

After this, I'd like to see how this open-source thingy is going to work without the merchantile element, since selling a product under most open-source models would be rather self-defeating -- unless of course you do something to it that can be both IP protected and give it value.

Take it from a guy who has been mucking around in F/OSS for years - them thar licenses won't do what many aspiring merchants reading this thread hope it will.

/P

Message edited on: 05/19/2005 15:07

Pengy, maybe its not a desire to be competitive with DAZ as much as it is a challenge to develop a new type of content...

ugly face ok. Now that casts a whole 'nother light on things...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

" Pengy, maybe its not a desire to be competitive with DAZ as much as it is a challenge to develop a new type of content..."

Wouldn't call 'em "new," exactly... but that's a nitpick. What got me to thinking about is a look at the industry at large: Movie houses are doing most of their stuff in-house instead of renting places like Zygote to make mesh, and the medical industry is too busy trying to comply with Oxley-Sarbanes/HIPAA to afford any frippery out of the IT budget like buying 3d meshes of people and people-parts. So where does that leave Zygote? Looking for new markets. Their CEO knows full well from previous experiences in the industry that games makers do their own in-house stuff (with waaaaaaaaay lower polycount requirements, among a zillion other factors that don't fit into Zygote's business visions), but got to see Poserdom up-close and personal during his tenure at DAZ. So, it follows that Zygote sees money out here in Poserdom. So, why not?

Hell, it's business, not personal, so I can understand the reasons why. It's just that there seems to be a lack of forethought into it, and I really don't want to see Poserdom get smashed up-side the head with what one apt poster @ RFI termed "The Mother of All Merchant Resource Kit" fiascoes, or anything similar.

We'll table the OSS angle for a moment, mostly because I don't know (yet) what they'll come up with, if at all. a whole lot will depend on that, otherwise they're just another RDNA, another DAZ, another content creator.

As long as we as a community know up-front what's going down, I have no problems with it. OTOH, I wonder if this whole venture on Zygote's part has even been thought through to the next fiscal quarter, let alone year... (man, must be nice to have one hundred lawyers on retainer, but I'd really hate to see the bill :/ )

/P

Message edited on: 05/19/2005 15:31

ok.... We've got post deletions. For those who missed them, ironbear posted a rather scathing commentary on the proceedings, and someone who doesn't exist inthe member list for the site posted little barbs back. That's why the posts 87 and 90. (just for reference)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I've just had to delete some posts in this thread due to TOS violations. Sorry if the thread now reads a little disjointed. Please keep discussions respectful and within TOS. Thanks Karen Poser Moderator

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

s'okay - some of us got 'em archived. :) So what's Rendo's take on this? Any chance of getting Tim or Tammy to weigh in? /P

I wonder if some of us are thinking behind the curve on some of the details of this. Two words... Dynamic Clothing. Does the detail of the figure rigging matter as much as it did?

Depends... rigging will affect joints, which will in turn affect a lot of things that aren't dynamic clothing. Also, someone looking to do a quick and dirty animation will have to shoehorn a lot more time into their schedule if they have to take dynamic clothing into account for everything the figure wears. Otherwise I haven't the slightest idea... :) /P

Karen, no prob on the deletes (though dang it, I coulda won a bet!). AntoniaTiger, dynamic clothing is a sweetness that still has to make the mainstream, although that's only a short ways off, I believe. But, ultimately, it is not always the best solution -- and shouldn't ever be the only solution. Both conforming and dynamic styles are used when they work best for the project at hand -- and while dynamic might not be as affected by jointing, conforming is.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Well, y'all know what a hippo is, right? It's a greyhound built by committee. Yes, and we all know that the Concorde was built by one person in his back garden.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

"Yes, and we all know that the Concorde was built by one person in his back garden." ...but wasn't open-sourced or under general public control - 'sides, the Russians beat 'em to it anyway, and they did it under central authority, minus committees. ;) The point is simple - you're proposing something contrary to the whole idea of open-source, and as a result you'll end up with a bigger mess than the one you're trying to alleviate. Even the Linux kernel is managed and features/functions are decided on by one guy - Linus Torvalds, the original author of it. No committees, no disparate collection of 'merchants' whose ideas are almost guaranteed to conflict wildly with one another's... just one guy making all the decisions, and if anyone else wants to make their own modified version (which many distros do), they let the marketplace decide. /P

"Yes, and we all know that the Concorde was built by one person in his back garden." I'd always wondered, especially given so many of the documents are in French and they decided to kill the project recently.

Actually, nothing is stopping him from assembling such a committee and having a go at it - meanwhile others will simply take the same models, but bring something workable to market faster and more efficiently ;) If he wants to go for it, let 'im. /P

... flow

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

"but bring something workable to market faster and more efficiently" Or he could be taking the initiative to bring it to the community rather than the market...

He could indeed. 'course, something's going to have to compensate the committee for all that time :p /P

Anyone with a backup of Ironbear's commentary - I would love to read it? Please?

I still can`t get the newsletter, I tried 4 times.

" Anyone with a backup of Ironbear's commentary - I would love to read it? Please?" Check the RFI - the full backup of IB's fisking is in there (you'll have to scroll back a few pages.) /P

To be more exact... http://www.xfx-3d.com/postnuke/html/index.php?name=PNphpBB2_12a&file=viewtopic&t=40&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=8550

Message edited on: 05/20/2005 13:29

Attached Link: http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/310650p-265769c.html

Border vigilantes, Daz, CL, Zygote... WTF??? I'm going back to the perfectly ordinary tale of the woman who used her breast milk to extinguish a burning amputee.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

" Border vigilantes, Daz, CL, Zygote... WTF???" Nah - that's just a quiet day-shift in there. Just don't go in after dark if you value your sanity >:) /P

I just think its some members taking it upon themselves to assume there's open warfare between these companies even though their official representatives have never hinted at anything as such...

We'll be making an announcement shortly.

"I just think its some members taking it upon themselves to assume there's open warfare between these companies even though their official representatives have never hinted at anything as such..." Warfare? No. Business? Certainly... in all its glory - lipstick, warts and all. ...besides, you honestly don't think they'd say bad things about each other, would you? After all, the toes you may step on one day, could well be connected to the arse you may be forced to kiss the next. This leaves all the not-so-connected but fairly observant folk (often far more observant than I) to step in and tell it like it is, so to speak. Like the Mafioso usually say - "It's nothing personal, y'understand..." ;) /P

"I just think its some members taking it upon themselves to assume there's open warfare between these companies even though their official representatives have never hinted at anything as such..." - PBM

Nope. The warfare is always perfectly covert. They wouldn't want to upset the Poserites. The Gawds never ever fight, doanchewknow. ;) Ooh! An Official Announcement! snnniffff! I just love the smell of burning CorpoSpeak in the Evenings. Smells like... Manure, generally.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

• Monkeysmell

Ironbear, Pengy... whether it's business or "covert warfare" this kind of animosity is just uncalled for. What do you have invested in this situation to warrant such disdain because CL and Zygote have considered open sourcing?

I hav to agree with PBM here. Just what is it about open-sourcing 3D figures is it you disagree with? In Ironbear's tirade (sorry - that's the BEST I could call it), he makes claims that Zygote & CL/eFrontier are only doing this because DAZ is making money the same way. To which I have two things to say - first: DAZ does not open-source their figures (just read the EULA), and second: Sixus1 Media was releasing free figures (under much less stringent terms) long before the V3/M3 figures had their price slashed (where were the "OMG DAZ are trying to destroy &/or fleece the industry" calls then?) Simply put - what is WRONG with open-sourcing figures? If there is nothing wrong with the action itself - then all the conojecture about WHY they are doing it is meaningless. More to the point - a "distraction" from the good.

EK, not only has the M3 and V3 bases been released for free, but also DAZ Studio. This would seem to be some acknowledgement on DAZ's part that there is more involved that making money as there is an opportunity to participate in the community as well. I believe the reason some people are getting upset they feel their ability to profit from DAZ products will be diminished if the content moves away from marketing and more towards open source figures and freebies.

Err, gents? I'm the absolute last guy that anyone in this here forum can credibly accuse of being against Open Source. I've been a rather fervent little Linux and OSS partisan since long before most of the fine folks in here had even rendered their very first Vicky... Trust me on this. "Simply put - what is WRONG with open-sourcing figures?" Because code as a whole are a series of machine-readable processes, whereas "figures" are nothing more than datapoints to be read - there is no actual source there to be made open. Even the likes of Richard Stallman Hisself can't clearly define how one can make end-product data open yet protected at the same time. Hit up the GNU Free Documentation License sometime, but take some Tylenol before you try to delve into it. The concept I have no problems with, so long as it doesn't violate anything previously agreed on between Zygote and DAZ when the former spun off five+ years ago. The execution of it is going to be a beast, to be charitable about it: because of the unique and subtle differences between data (a .cr2 file) and a given process (source code), topped with the "I wanna be a merchant too!" attitude that this lovely community seems afflicted with, I just don't see any future in it. I've seen a whole lot of snarls that come from poor planning, and both Zygote and prospective merchants are going to be stuck with a quandry - how to get an OSS like solution that protects the original copyright upon which the mechanism depends, how to protect prospective merchants from having their morphs/characters/modifications from being P2P'd all over Hell legally at first opportunity, and at the same time remain viable. To top it off, unless anything has changed since 2002, Renderosity won't allow any open-sourced stuff to be sold in their stores, because it conflicts with their own EULA (trust me - I tried once.) Kinda hoses it all up right there, no? So why the focus on sales? Because the merchantile angle seems to be the one and only way left to get a decent variety of stuff for it, and continuous support for the base figure beyond the next "ooh, shiny!" release of some new mesh... and even that's no guarantee, though certainly better than nothing, I suppose. Now, as for why? Well, there's lots of room for speculation, but a solid enough guess can be had just by looking at it from the business angle, and it don't look as rosy and sunny as it seems made out to be. Not saying it's sinister, either - it's just business, which means the ultimate goal of maximizing the amount of cash the companies get out of you. Once you realize that, then you have to look at how they intend to go about it (after all, Zygote isn't a non-profit charity, so please, enough with the "caring about OSS" bit.. they're in it for the marketshare and profit, just like DAZ, Rendo, RDNA, PPros, and everyone else is.) /P

Attached Link: http://www.e-frontier.com/open3dproject/index.php?

Well folks. We thought it would be important to provide a constructive medium to further these discussions. The whole premise for this initiative was to unleash a new paradigm of creativity in the community. We'd like to invite you to the Open3DProject forum. We have a vision for this but we're looking towards the community to help shape and mold this project. We're giving you pretty much a blank slate. Bring your enthusiasm, imagination and collaborative spirit over to the Open3DProject forum and let's do something that's never been done before, something extraordinary. The e-Frontier and Zygote Team

Thanks Zygote and e-Frontier :)

Pengy - for the record, I was not accusing you of being against "Open Source Software" in anyway. I know from past posts of yours that you are all into that stuff. I'm also into it from a software developers side of things (I frequently use Python & wxWindows in applications I develop and have contributed minor programs to the world at larges under BSD type licenses). I have to disagree with your misgivings regarding the ease of execution in this regard. I see no difference between the open-sourcing of code vs the open-sourcing of mesh/rig data. Both of them are covered under the same copyright laws and as such, require similar licenses to "protect" them from fair use provisions and the like. Copyright law does the rest. From the way you word things - you make out like because the base figure is "open source", any derivatives must also be (see your comment RE: P2P sharing). This is patently not the case. For example - a modified BSD license would allow people to sell their derivatives so long as a copyright notice remains within the source files. Sixus1 Media's Project Human license (while not perfect) is very similar to this scenario. Open Source does not necessarily mean "GPL" (where changes to the base copyrighted material must also be made freely available when distributing a "compiled" version). As for Rendo not allowing "open source" items for sale - that too I think would depend on the type of license used. A GPL-like license I can understand them not accepting, an item derived from a BSD-like licensed mesh would be legally no different to what they do already. However, even in the event that Rendo decides against it - there ARE other places to sell these things. Last but not least - there is a tone of condecension in your post targetted at the strawman's argument that we're saying that Zygote & CL/eFrontier are in it for the "good of Open Source". Noboday said that. I simply said it doesn't matter the reasons behind it. As you said - it's business and in that business people are looking out how to make money. DAZ, Zygote, CL/eFrontier - they are corporations with the same aim - "To Make Money". What matter is HOW they go about this aim. Open Sourcing figures is not a bad method of doing this (you yourself mention that). However, the fact that they are trying to make money keeps being mentioned like it is something we need to watch out for. Merchants are in it for money too - does that mean we should warn people about their releases all the time?

Rigging data is not protected under copyright if it is determined by a settings within the program. Rigging can, however, be protected by a contractual agreement (such as a Eula) -- for example, the DAZ figures. "...an item derived from a BSD-like licensed mesh would be legally no different to what they do already." Yes, it would, as it would necessitate the inclusion of an alternative licensing arrangement to the license presently required -- to exclusion of others -- by Renderosity.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Has it ever been determined as fact or now, whether cr2 data can be undeniably protected? I am curious about this. Regardless of the Eula, webFAQ, etc, has it been absolutely established that a cr2 can be copyright protected? If so I would like to see where it was established and by who. My understanding was Psoer formats were non-copyright protected, thus why Studio is able to use them without permission.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

excuse the typos. It's late. :)

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

CR2s are settings data. An effectve, general web search on settings data will provide several cases where settings data cannot be subject to copyright. and no prob on the typos. I'm drunk AND crazy. Everything equalizes out there somehow...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

The CR2 format is not protected by copyrights. A document about said CR2 format is covered by copyright; as can be individual CR2 files. Copyrighting a file-format is not possible per se, which is why companies such as Microsoft are "patenting" them instead (a questionable practice with questionable legal basis - but who wants to fight M$ in a court of law?) On the other hand the rigging data in said CR2 files is a tricky one. As ynsaen mentions - it is a setting specific to an application and has no realy meaning outside that context. Case law suggests that as such the extent to which copyright law applies is limited. Even in the case of it being covered, without an explicit contract, use of rigging data from the CR2 is allowed under "fair use" provisions. Case law has established that one may use portions of a copyrighted item for purposes of "compatibility" in the context of computer systems & file formats. However, this is a provision that most people are explicitly barring through the use of "restricted distribution" terms in their EULA's. So... to summarise. Without an explicit license barring said use - copyright law allows us to use the rigging data in the CR2 for the purposes of compatibility (i.e. rigging clothing for a figure). However, in practice - there is not many figures out there with licenses allowing it.

But files and sites are pulled all the time due to cr2 infringement. Daz obviously claims that their cr2 is copyright protected. What are they basing that on? I'm not against the idea, but need to know how they are successfully establishing copyright. I have been looking intot his for a long time and can't find anything that allows copyright of a cr2. It would be nice but I can't find anything. Cooler, Are youa round?? Anton to Cooler. Come in Cooler. You handle alot of this stuff. What is the basis for establishing cr2 copyright?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Actually - most the time, DAZ is getting people on infringement of the EULA. Their EULA states that one cannot distribute any of the data in their installs (whole or in part). As such, having agreed to their EULA - you are bound by the stricter terms contained therein. This was covered not that long ago in a thread here at Rendo (started by myself actually).

Do you have any web links to Eula cases? Is a Eula truely a legally valid method of binding the user?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Hmmm - no web-links but EULA's have been successfully used against people in a court of law before. There is some ambiguity as to whether some of the more insane elements of modern EULA's are enforceable (have you actually READ some of Microsoft's latest offerings?!), but restriction of rights granted by the Copyright Act has been established as fair and binding. As such, having agreed to DAZ's EULA - you are bound by that term. Which is why (until DAZ clarifies their position on merchant use of said CR2 rigging data) I will not agree to said EULA.

One simple case, Anton: Sun vs. Microsoft. MS violated the Eula on the sun engine, so they sued and won. A eula is a contract, and as such, is as enforceable as the laws of the state in under which it is governed allow. Eula's are legally binding in the United States provided they meet the criteria for willing acceptance. They are constantly challenged -- even today, but yes, they are legally binding. Because they are contracts, as well, they are subject to a much wider and more specific body of law than even copyright. Contracts are the secret evil...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Does the Eula have to be displayed prior to download? Or just including it is enough? So Daz's Eula makes thier Poser files copyright protected? this doesn't sound right. I rememebr Daz being against using a Eula to make the poser files copyrightable. Was along time ago but I thought that was it. Is there something else perhaps isntaed that makes it possible to protect the cr2 you distribute? WHat is in the Eual specifically that makes that possible?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

No - the EULA only needs to be viewable before agreement. Given that DAZ offers a non-conditional refund if one does not agree to the EULA - they're covered on this front. DAZ's EULA does not make their files copyright protected. Agreeing to the EULA makes the files "contract protected". The contract in question gives you less rights than copyright would. Under copyright law, one could use the rigging data for compatibility - their license prohibits that. What makes the CR2 protected is that for the right of installing and using DAZ's copyrighted material (the CR2, mesh, textures, etc) - you agree to abide by the terms of a contract DAZ presents you (the EULA). This is no different to licenses stating that one can use a freely distributed Poser figure/mesh only for "non-commmercial uses". By agreeing to those terms - you are entering a contract. What I think is getting confused here is the difference between "copyright law" and "contract law". Copyright law (at least in the US) applies to any copyrightable creation (be that a mesh, literature, music, etc) and gives every copyright-owner the same rights. Contract law is a completely different body of law and one's rights in any particular agreement are defined by the contract in question (provided certian conditions are met - which DAZ does meet by the way). This is not to say that I support the way DAZ has written their license (I don't, they know this, and are apparently in the process of "fixing" this problem for the merchant community at large). But what they are doing and the claims they are making for figures such as Alex & Lilin2 are perfectly legal (I personally checked this out for Lilin2, though Alexa fell under basic copyright law).

Thats for the info. I have no opinion on their Eula, just was curious how copyright protection is achieved through it's use.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Glad to be of service ;)

Okay - last post I intend to make on the subject in here for awhile, so let's get it all tied up. EK: Open Source does not mean "it's open until someone locks it down for sale" which is in essence what you're proposing. It means that changes are allowed in perpetuity, and that changes to changes are/should be allowed. And yes, there is a difference between code and data - Source code is not readily apparent or even viewable without specialized tools, patience, and a little luck. OTOH, any fool can open a .cr2 with nearly any text editor. It is therefore easier to protect source code, and to make it available under certain conditions, like open/closed source licensing. Not so with data - it's all available for modification right then and there, so the mechanisms one would need to ptotect or keep it open are vastly different. BTW, it ain't condecension, just hard questions that need answered... it'll be easier to do that now, than trying to do it after a thousand different and conflicting assumptions are made and then sold by the recipients of these things. "However, the fact that they are trying to make money keeps being mentioned like it is something we need to watch out for. " Nope - just stating it, since folks tend to get all gushy about stuff being touted as one thing ('hey guy's we're giving it to you for free! Open Source!') when in reality it ain't been determined yet ('...but with conditions which we still need to determine'.) ;) /P

"To top it off, unless anything has changed since 2002, Renderosity won't allow any open-sourced stuff to be sold in their stores, because it conflicts with their own EULA (trust me - I tried once.) Kinda hoses it all up right there, no?" I already checked with ClintH and showed him a copy of our license and he didn't have any problem with it. So, I will see if ClintH can pop in and give an official statement on that aspect of this. --Rebekah--

"Nope - just stating it, since folks tend to get all gushy about stuff being touted as one thing ('hey guy's we're giving it to you for free! Open Source!') when in reality it ain't been determined yet ('...but with conditions which we still need to determine'.) ;)" If you've read Sixus1's license the conditions seem pretty clear to me.

Three or four years back, Rich Suchy (a wonderful character modeler) made available an open source woman on Preset Central, which now appears to be defunct. He released her with a GNU/GPL open source license.

Preset Central is now gone, and I'm not sure how to contact Rich Suchy. However, at the time, I asked him if I could Poserize the model and release her to the Poser community.

His reply was "That is exactly why I did it that way, and I would like to see her put to good use." He also said that I could give my Poser version away, or sell it, whichever I prefer. With TWO conditions.

(1) That I include the original GNU/GPL license with the product that I distributed; and
(2) That I granted anyone from that point on the freedom to do with my creation anything they wanted.

In other words, someone could take my Poserized version of the model and do anything they wanted with it, with the condition that they, too, gave anyone permission to do with the model what they wanted.

That is my understanding of what the Open Source licensing is all about. I would think that if the same open source geometry is used to make clothing (such as a catsuit), and if that catsuit is made 100% with the open source geometry, then the conditions should also extend to the catsuit (someone should probably clarify that).

BUT, if the clothing for the models are all original, then the conditions change, depending on the license that goes with the all-original clothing.

Message edited on: 05/21/2005 10:03

PS --- I did make an attempt at starting the model, and I actually got as far as texturing it. I thought of resurrecting it a year ago, but with this potentially better model there is no point in doing so. 8-)

Deecey, there's always room for more :) Whatever you are working on, there's bound to be someone interested :)

Hmmm ... maybe I will one of these days. I actually have some ideas for her. 8-D

The thing about using the developer's forum here is that you get a bunch of feedback :)

Attached Link: http://www.poserforums.com/viewforum.php?f=131

With our license (which isn't based on GPL/GNU), what ever you create from the Open Source content is yours to do with as you please. You do have the option of contributing back to the Open Source project and then what you contribute would have the same license as the original open source content. Example: You download the new Project Human female figure. You create a catsuit derived from the mesh and use the JP's from the CR2. You can give it away as a freebie, sell it, or make a contribution to the open source project...which will make it then open source content for all to share. You could take the original mesh, alter it in a 3D program...output a new mesh and sell it. It is up to you. I am working on a FAQs for our stuff to answer questions like these. I don't know what kind of lisence e-F (CL) or Zygote is going to use for thier open-source figures, so I am only speaking for Sixus1. These figures and Open Source content are going to be available to everyone. It is up the individual if they take advantage of a new resource or not based on their needs. I am not trying to push this idea or materials onto anyone, I am only trying to clarify for those that are interested. **For the record, we have been working up to this for some time. It started with the old Project Human and us giving away figure for free. It was a kind of reverse thing...instead of giving away support products for our figures, we gave away figures for the support products. With what we are going to do next, we aren't doing some marketing scheme to make money. This is truely a way to give back to the community and hopefully help foster something new and creative in some people. A way for people to stop worrying so much about licenses and just have fun. If people want to read more into it than that, then there isn't anything that I could say that would sway them otherwise. --Rebekah--

Attached Link: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/

Actually Penguinisto - Open Source CAN mean exactly that. For example - take a BSD-derived license for instance. I can take code under that license, change parts of it to my liking and then sell said result. Having made a derivative of that code - so long as I keep the original copyright notice in the code (usually top of the file) and allow people to utilise said "original code", I CAN lock down the derivative. Microsoft has done exactly this with BSD code. As BSD is classified by the OSI as an "open source" license - I believe you are wrong in this instance. What I CANNOT do is lock down the original version for sale - I need to make a derivative product. It is the copyright on the derivative version which gives me the rights to lock it down for sale. The Project Human license for instance gives one this right. As for differences in code & mesh - I still disagree with you. sure code can be "compiled", but that is not what is at issue here. We are talking about the "open source" license applying to the source here, be that code or mesh. So long as the license is not GPL-like (and hence must be applied to to all derivatives as well as the original) then this is quite possible. One does not need to include "derivatives" and "modifications" in a license for it to be Open Source. The OSI (Open Source Initiative) only requires that "the license must allow modifications and derived works, and must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the license of the original software." It does not say that "the license MUST enforce the distribution of modifications & derived works under the same terms and conditons". GPL muddies the waters when talking about open source because it is (as Deecey & Pengy point out) a "perpetual open sourcing" license & happens to be in the media alot more often than other open source licenses. Some like to call it viral, but that is a term I will refrain from in the following discussion. GPL requires that if one changes licensed source code and distributes the result of these modifications in compiled or source form - one also must make available ALL the source for the application in question (as it is now deemed as bing licensed under GPL). This is what prevents say Microsoft taking parts of the Linux OS and incorporating into their next version of Windows. However, GPL is not the only "open source" license out there. Just go the link above to see the wide variety of licenses clasified as "open source". Most of which are nowhere near as restrictive regarding derivative works as the GPL.

"Microsoft has done exactly this with BSD code." Yep - their networking stack, to be exact... and its locked down good and tight. That's not open-source, that stupidity on the BSD team's part, and a huge reason why BSD itself never really took off. It was too easy for IBM, MS, and everyone else to simply steal what they needed, bury the credit in a .dll or .so file somewhere, and nothing went back into BSD. ...still think it's a good idea? ;) /P

I still think that it is a good idea. --Rebekah--

I've never really understood the quasi-religious nature of parts of the OpenSource movement. It's kind of like the Mac religion. If you don't buy into the exact doctrine, it's heresy and therefore evil. Maybe it's generational. If someone wants to give something away without strings and they don't care if you make money with it, that used to be a good thing. Of course, we didn't have the notion that everything should be free in the old days either.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I still think it's a good idea as well. Arguments about hardware, unix, and other tangents are not going to distract anyone from the real issues here.

Well, I'm not a license zealot. Simply a "zealot" for truth - and the truth is that by the industry accepted definition of "open source" - BSD is open source, like it or not. Pengy might not think it is "open source" by his definition. However, the standard definition is that one is ALLOWED to redistribute the source and any derivatives not that one MUST do so. This is something I think is GOOD for the Poser community. Think of how much easier things would be if one didn't need to RTE encode figures such as the Aeon line of Dodgers, or the A3Man of Posermatic's. BSD-type licensing allows these product to be distributed without the RTE hassle and yet retain rights in not redistributing the figures without permission. EK

I think open source is a great idea with all its pro's and con's ... Linux is the best example for an open source project ... its a commercial system now but without all the ppl who have worked on it over the years it havn't become a great operation system. Lets start with ("Tim and Tammy?") Zygotes great Figures and see what happens the next years ... Look, your able now to make all what you have missed in other figures ... go for it! :) Greets Chris

"It Is Useless To Resist!" - Darth Vader

Not a religion, but mostly pointing out that its a free giveaway on BSD (and in this case Zygote's) part, so that merchants can then lock down the results, as I've mentioned before.

The reason Linux (GPL) OTOH has grown far larger than BSD (not GPL) was because everyone has open redistributable access to the Linux kernel and all of its improvements.

I'm happy with either direction personally, but I suspect that a lot of potential merchants looking at this and drooling in anticipation of free labor for their income may be in for a nasty surprise.

Oh, in regards to: "and any derivatives", my dear EK - go ask Microsoft if you can redistribute their networking stack... it is after all a derivative of BSD's. I'm willing to bet that the answer is "no." I'm further willing to bet that any derivative of this project put up for sale will get you the same answer if you ask the merch for redistribution rights. ;)

Overall, if this is what they (and you) want to do, cool... As long as y'all know what you're buying into, I've no problems with it. I'm perfectly happy with coming back when the first of many nasty copyright snarls hit, and chiming in with an "I told you so" or two ;)

I wish you luck... you're gonna need it.

/P

Message edited on: 05/22/2005 09:44

"I'm happy with either direction personally, but I suspect that a lot of potential merchants looking at this and drooling in anticipation of free labor for their income may be in for a nasty surprise. I myself wouldn't want to do anything that wasn't intended as a giveaway where I couldn't profit from the value I added to the package. Freebes are nice, and I enjoy doing them once in awhile, but this is my only income. I also don't see how you can have a group effort on most of the things that go into a poser figure. You can have one person improving on the work of another, but it has to be straght line, sequential, any branching would never be able to return back to the "common" trunk. Once you recut a joint line, you have to change the joint parameters, and then the JCM, you can't put parts back in the original joint, it is all or nothing.

Penguinisto: Let me put this to you simply - YOU ARE WRONG, my dear. As I KEEP repeating, Open Source means that one CAN redistribute original code & any derivatives - not that one MUST. As such, Microsoft is well within their rights to restrict the redistribution of the networks stack "as is", due to the fact that they didn't license their derivative work under BSD. Want to know why I am so confident? Because I did my research. My quote was directly from the Open Source Initiative's website. Given that to be accepted as "Open Source" in the industry, a license must follow the conditions on their website - I think it is safe to say, BSD is "open source". Like it or not. For those that are confused by Pengy's twist and spin. Here are a couple of links: The Definition of "Open Source". Please note the quote I took regarding derived works was directly from Section 3 - "Derived Works" (funnily enough). The BSD license on OSI. That is, BSD is accepted as Open Source - regardless of what Penguinisto would like. The list of officially accepted Open Source licenses. Note that you will find MANY that do not need you to redistribute or license your derivatives under same said license. But you are ALWAYS allowed to. Now - Pengy may not AGREE with this information, doesn't make him in any way "right". Just as disagreeing with a law does not make breaking it "right". EK

Err, I never said it wasn't "open source" - I said the BSD license was stupid, and provided examples as to why. There is a reson I kept on providing the same example over and over again... But, you missed the point at least twice, and I don't expect you to make the correlations between why I keep mentioning Microsoft and how merchants and the community they inhabit work around here, if you haven't already. (shrug.) Deal. /P

Hmmmm, let me take a wild guess that a few people would disagree with that opinion, UC's lawyers foremost. It's a licensing scheme. Some like it, some don't. That doesn't make it stupid that I can see. Microsoft, Apple, Juniper Networks and many others have benefited from it. Apparently, the Berkley folks thought it was OK. The fact that you're not forced to tithe back sounds more "free and open" to me than the alternative. I'm sure there's something I'm missing hers but...If someone can make a super morphing Mimic vagina for Lucy and make money from it rather than be forced to give it away, will that not be a greater incentive for people to make super morphing Mimic vaginas? Will the limited market not discourage the production of a dozen incompatible vaginas, not that anyone can't make one and give it away if they choose to? I hear the dire predictions of greedy sinners despoiling the garden and bringing on the apocalypse, I just don't see how it plays out, though admittedly, no KoolAid has passed my lips. If it's true, then these figures are evil and we should burn them like Harry Potter books at a Baptist convention.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Allow me to quote you, Pengy... "That's not open-source, that stupidity on the BSD team's part..." Emphasis mine of course, so hoepfully you can see where you are misrepresenting even your own statements. Also, I am well aware of how merchants and the community tend to operate (it's not hard to see). Which is why I think a BSD-type license is the ONLY type of license that wuld be acceptable. As Jim Burton and others have already said - if they HAVE to give away any extensions/products making use of the licensed figure - they'd rather not do anything on them. Like it or not - Poserdom is pretty solidly commercialised now. I would put money on the fact that the ONLY open-source initiatives that would get widespread support in the current Poser marketplace are those that are a "stupid giveaway". Once upon a time, GPL-like licenses might have been acceptable, but I think that time has passed.

Oh, and as a small note - the "fact" that BSD never really took off is also false. OpenBSD is considered as one of the MOST secure operating systems available today (outside custom government networks). It is still going strong, and I bet you can't guess which license it uses? grin

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2278071

We've made an official post regarding the status of the Open3DProject.

"is a reson I kept on providing the same example over and over again..."

But it isn't a good example. The use of portions of the BSD stack by MS didn't hurt BSD one little bit. If anything, it has enhanced their reputation.

BSD is far from a failure... it is a well handled, stable, fast supported operating system that in many ways lacks the flaws that have recently been plaguing the Linux project (stability, bugs, communications problems and so on). Lest we forget as well the entire Apple/OSX use of BSD.

BSD is popular with both users, developers and businesses because it does not have the legal flaws of GNU license. Lots of companies have helped with the development of BSD (as with Linux) because they can contribute without fear.  Many, many companies won't go near GNU code due to the fuzziness of the license. I know that while i may have an urge to contribute to open source programs I absolutely won't do so to GPL'd code... it's too hard to tell when someone there will claim contamination in my commercial work.

The BSD license means freedom. It means you are releasing your code because you want people to use it. The GPL means you are releasing it hoping to "infect" other code and lock those people into your political or ethical views. It may be "open", but the GPL sure isn't "free" in any sense but dollar cost.