I no longer have the time or inclination to leave comments under most images. I value my friendship with so many folks in the fractal gallery..as well as other galleries..and I certainly don't want to hurt anyone's feelings by neglecting to comment, but the time has come to decide whether or not my comments are motivated more by friendship or artistic merit..or simply by what I find to be worthy of comment. From now on I will be more discriminating- in terms of which images I choose to respond to, and less prone to comment on almost everything posted. I'm sorry- in advance- if anyone is offended by my decision, and I don't expect to receive nearly the response to what I post as I have in the past. I've been aware of the "you pat my back and I'll pat yours" mentality that seems to happen almost automatically..but, latley, it has become more of a concern, because I see, that unwittingly, I've become part of the problem..and have been for quite awhile. Friendships that are based upon mutual back-patting are not real friendships, IMO; rather, they are associations co-dependent upon supplying daily fixes for recognition. Harsh, I know..and I should probably speak only for myself, but I see it in several of us who post on a regular basis..and, I need to overcome it, despite what you need or don't need. Please don't interpret this as ingratitude. I'm sincerely grateful for your comments AND your friendship; time and the factors that motivate comments are the primary reason for this post. Best regards, Linda

I so agree with your sentiments. I have greatly reduced the number of comments I make, sticking strictly to the images I really like and admire regardless of who created them. I have noticed that I've received fewer comments myself recently although I truly believe that my art is improving. Some people's comments are definitely 'conspicuous by their absence now' but I hope this means that the people who do comment are doing it for the right reasons and those are the comments I value. I have toyed with the idea of leaving the comment option off altogether - I left the 'ranking' off a long time ago - but I think I would find it frustrating if I really wanted to comment on something and couldn't so have left it on for the time being. I, too, hope people understand and are not offended or think I'm ungrateful - everyone appreciates a bit of encouragement - I just need to get out of the 'you've commented on mine so I must comment on yours' situation. Mags

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

:O)

I completely agree and have felt the same about this issue for awhile. There is barely enough time in my life to even comment on the images I really, really like and I have made a drastic reduction. I understand your decision to do this. Thank You much, Treena

Well said Linda.

I also think there is a mentality of "I'll pat your back, you pat mine" and I don't think it's always based on the artistic merits of an image, it seems to be more of a co-dependant ego stroke fest. (If that's too blunt or harsh for anybody, I'm sorry in advance)

I've been posting here for a couple of years now, and have always left the comments and ranking options on my posts. I'm not really sure what my motivation is for still leaving them on as the comments rarely influence how > I < really feel about something I've posted.

I don't leave comments on many images, I've always been a bit stingy with them. I tend to lurk around the fringes, and only come out when there is something that I just find so wonderful I need to speak up.

There are a lot of fantastic artists here, and when I have access to a high speed connection I spend a bit more time looking and wishing I could do some of the things I see here that I haven't quite figured out. I really do enjoy the time I spend here lurking in the shadows.

Very well said, Linda. An honest stand. Encouragement is good. However, automatic comments with no real feeling behind them don't do anyone any good. How could anyone expect to improve without a bit of honesty? Friends wouldn't think bad of you :D Nick

Nick C. Sorbin
Staff Writer
Renderosity Magazine
......................................................................................................
"For every breath, for every day of living, this is my Thanksgiving."
-Don Henley

You're right, of course. But it's hard to not comment on images of friends, simply because you like them as a person. But when time gets short you have to make the decision you're making now. Sometimes I have time enough on my hands and at other times I hardly see anything for weeks. That's just how it is. Don't worry about it. We'll cherish the comments you do make :-D Yvonne

I'm sorry Yvonne, but I think that's exactly what Linda means, you comment and get comments from friends, not because you like their artwork so much but because as you said yourself "But it's hard to not comment on images of friends, simply because you like them as a person". I personally think you should only comment on pieces you really like, friends or not or give helpful advices to help others improve their work, isn't that what commenting is meant for? Pieter

I was many years ago active as jury or a jury member in the Award scene. At that time I have the first time the attitude "give ' s you me then give I you" to know learned. As I a last year to Rendero came I found in many places the same mentality and from the outset very consciously against this play decided. Therefore I poste rarely comments to pictures and only very rarely I poste no comment at all however vote for a picture. And sometimes there is no comment and no vote for it however one privately Message. I act from the moment of the feeling out and I know that humans who know around my attitude are pleased all the more about a comment of me. Because it is honestly meant and comes from hearts. And because only I am friendly with someone, a picture does not have to please me obligatorily ;). I can understand your decision and wish you strength and clarity this way :). (I made this text with the help of a translation program - I hope it is not to creepily English and it is still understandable).

Linda, I agree with you. As soon as time for surfing through Renderosity decreases (like mine) the number of comments given must decrease too. Why should anybody be offended?

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

I'm feel that I'm not anywhere in the league of some of the incredible "fractallists" here in this forum, so to me, I cherish each and every comment I get, even if it is only one. It gives me direction and makes me smile to think that I've made at least one person happy enough to leave a lovely comment. Plus I do the images for my own benefit sometimes, it can be very therapeutic. I agree with you Linda in that you should only post a comment on something that grabs your attention. I also try to be helpful to the artists who are just starting out and I don't think it hurts to leave a word or two of encouragement if you feel that image has impressed you. But I am like a number of others in this thread, I would rather get one honest comment, no matter what it said, than 25 comments saying my image is gorgeous(without stating what about the image is gorgeous) or a V when I myself don't think the image deserves it. (Steps down off soapbox)..

This whole thread is music to my ears. My hat is off to you Linda for having the guts to say it so plainly. One last comment to shemia, with all due respect. For me sometimes all I can say on a particularly magnificent image without sounding contrived is "well done" or something to that effect, and I hope that would be enough. Tim

I hardly ever even venture into the gallery myself... I'm a bit of a forum "junkie" really... lol! I have a sum total of 2 images in the Fractal gallery... not because I don't produce many (I actually have what are only described as "creative frenzies"), but because I only want to post my best works in the gallery here. I don't subscribe to the ranking system anywhere - it only detracts from the art in my opinion. Comments are nice, but not necessary - unless I'm asking for some pointers as to how I could do better - but I can just as easily ask that sort of thing in the forums, right? I have my own personal gallery for my works that I set up on my own hosted webspace - all of the images that I think are fit for public viewing end up there... lol! If anyone feels the need to look at my personal gallery, you can find it at the following link... http://www.woosie.net/gallery/index.php ... and comments are not necessary there either... hehe! If perchance I have the time to browse through the gallery here and see works that especially move me in some way - they will maybe get a comment from me... I don't look at the names of the people who made those images - that isn't what I'm here for - I'm here for any info/tips/tricks that I can use to make my works better is all. All that said, I've got to sort through around 400 images that I've created in the past week, and get some of them uploaded to my personal gallery... lol! T.

Who? Me?

Hi Tim, and I did not take offence or anything else to your comment. I'm a firm believer in people stating the truth, it's a very under rated philosophy as of late (In real life and for me, I mean) so I appreciate your honesty. If well done is something you feel should be said then I think it is a wonderful comment. As I stated, I'm happy with all/any comments I receive, be they bad, good or indifferent. It helps me to focus. And I applaud Linda for her honesty. I value it a great deal. Why is that just lately people seem to be afraid of honesty? (online and off) Just a thought.

"Why is that just lately people seem to be afraid of honesty? (online and off) Just a thought." Because with honesty comes responsibility... and that is most frightening to some people... It is much easier to utter platitudes and what one thinks others want to hear than it is to utter the truth. Applies to all life situations. Ever hear the saying "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"?? - I don't always follow that tenet... lol! T.

Who? Me?

I appreciate all of your thoughts. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with. I understand your feelings, Yvonne. It's been real difficult to confine my comments to just those images that "catch my eye." The sensitivity to the way others feel or that they could perceive the lack of comment as a personal affront is still weighing on me..and I have given in to my better judgement a couple of times already; this habit of commenting en masse is a hard one to break. But I'm not going to back down just because I'm not good at it yet. This doesn't mean I won't still gush some; after all, that's my personality. :~) And I may leave comments under something I like that noone else seems to. Doesn't matter, if I honestly like an image. This new way of perusing the gallery has already given me some relief. I no longer feel the pressure of needing to comment on nearly everything and still somehow find time to do other things that need doing. I also unsubscribed from the option that allowed me three uploads a day. So, I'm not driven to frenetically fashion images. I think I like this new modus operandi.

If it are real friends they deserve a helpful truth especially on bad pictures.

hi linda, really glad you wrote this, i agree.

Personally, I don't think the number of comments people leave is of any consequence. The interesting thing for me is why people feel compelled to explain themselves when they aren't commenting as much... On what, when, and why I comment is my business and nobody elses. I don't have to explain my behaviour to anyone. Good luck, Linda :O) Matt.

Attached Link: SINCE THERE IS LIGHT THERE IS BEAUTY!

Hello. I am 100% new to RR. I always was a silent VIEWER, a frustrated one till the day a few weeks ago finally someone introduced me to APO telling I dont need to be a master in MATHs etc. What a relief. I have only a few pics up, BUT WHAT A THRILL when people, one does not know, comment on something. I work as a Designer for over 20 years but feel as soon as there is personal contact,friendship etc..it more likely that any comments may be slightly biaised.I live with someone for years and it is only now that I find out in ART we are worlds apart but that is fine as long as I get comments that are from the REAL VIEWER with REAL THOUGHTS. Every word should be taken like a gift, as it takes PRECIOUS time(as I read above) for most of us to type out some comments.I usually like to write what a pic makes me think or feel like. I am novice in RR so cant GIVE at this time nothing more but my feeling looking at someone art. BUT as a NEW ARRIVAL it is so comforting to read comments and I DO APRECIATE EVRY WORD OF THEM VERY MUCH. Thanks for reading this far. Victor(Austrian in South Africa)after 20 years in China. A breath OF FRESH AIR :-) I follow my motto. SINCE THERE IS LIGHT THERE IS BEAUTY.

Matt, I don't have to explain my behavior either; however, I care more about people than I do about fractals. I thought that- by explaining the reasons behind the curtailing of my comments, people that I care about might understand that it has nothing to do with personalities and has everything to do with time constraints and examining my own motives for leaving comments. If I hadn't been compulsively commenting in the first place (which doesn't mean that I wasn't being honest in my comments), I wouldn't feel a need to explain anything. Thanks for the "good luck." I need it to "keep me on the path." :~) ulliroyal: I agree with what you say, but, generally, I haven't the time to give constructive criticism on every image that doesn't catch my eye or that I find unappealing. And, sometimes I know that I don't like a particular image, but I have a difficult time explaining why.

I certainly agree about the 'helpful comments'. I have only ever had one comment that wasn't complimentary - and that was that someone didn't like my frame!! 'Don't like' is definitely not helpful - that's just a matter of taste. I am horrified by the penulitmate paragraph in the previous post. Why one earth would anyone do this? Any comment made because of 'persuasion' would be worth nothing anyway. Obviously, a lot of people feel very strongly about this whole situation, including myself. Maybe anonymous comments would solve the problem of 'you comment on mine and I'll comment on yours' or maybe no option to comment at all and send an IM privately. It would take a bit more time and trouble and so would maybe mean more, would be personal to the artist concerned and nobody else would be influenced by it. I presume that other galleries have the same problem - as some of it's down to 'human nature' - perhaps a complete shake up of the whole site would be a good thing for us all.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

I don't know how many people here suffer from my particular "affliction"... I was told many years ago that I could never be "artistic" - when I failed my final year of high school Art class in a truly spectacular way... 19% final mark! It has taken 20 years for me to build my confidence back up to the point where I am willing to offer up my humble works for public scrutiny. I am at the point where, if I really think that one of my works is good enough to post here amongst all of the truly divine images everyone else seem to post - then whether someone else likes it is beside the point... My last offering has garnered a few comments - by people that I don't even know - and that is absolutely wonderful as far as I'm concerned. But if my work got no comments - I'm fine with that also. I turn off ratings and the like, but leave the comment option on... it's nice to know if my image has actually moved someone enough to post a comment... lol! T.

Who? Me?

To clarify my previous comments a bit... "The interesting thing for me is why people feel compelled to explain themselves when they aren't commenting as much..." This wasn't actually aimed at what you have done here, Linda. Although that's what got me thinking about it. It's more to do with 'back patter' comments that are left under images when they disappear for a few days...You all know the kind of thing... "Sorry I haven't commented on any of your postings for the last week but...blah blah blah...I promise I will catch up soon!!!" To me this is the root of the problem. That someone would promise to comment on all the images they haven't seen for however long is just insane. Why would anyone not want to comment just on the images that they actually like? I see it as basic freedom of choice, and for someone to throw that away just to become a fucking lemming is beyond my understanding...These people could post a picture of a piece of dogshit wearing Groucho glasses, and it would be hailed as a masterpiece. I really can't believe this still winds me up after all this time, but it does. I think I need another break... Seeya in a month or twelve, Matt. (Keith, I don't think crap was harsh...I've posted a lot of crap, but i've never posted a funny dogshit masterpiece...yet).

Seems that writing comments depends a lot on the time one has available as well as what each person finds appealing. For me, commenting also depends on the mood I happen to be in. Some days everything is beautiful and other days I'm not as turned on by fractals or other types of art. This may be true for others as well. I'm retired and have quite a bit of time to look at all the art in ALL the galleries and make comments. Also, I try to make sure I write comments on images of the new people here in the fractal gallery. I can just imagine how it must feel posting a first fractal and not getting a welcome or a single comment of any kind. It must be rather discouraging. I don't believe we need to justify our actions regarding commenting. To each his own. Marion

This is a very interesting topic, indeed! I have been a member here for over a year and on more that one occasion I have been told that, to get comments, I have to give comments. So here I go leaving comments and then I began getting comments, but I wasn't sure if it was because they really loved my work or if it was because I left them comments. From time to time I would have to stop leaving comments because of the rheumatiod arthritis in my hands and fingers. Then the comments stopped coming. So, I tried leaving comments again. I have basically stopped leaving comments now, because after spending so much time typing, I spend the rest of the day and night, taking prescriptions, rocking back and forth (in pain and usually crying) with each hand wrapped in heating pads and F****D up from pain meds!!! I hate not to be able to leave comments for images that I really love, but I had rather not have any comment than to go through this every day. I hope that I have not hurt anyones feeling, I consider each and everyone of you as my family and I love you all!!!! I hope that you understand about the lack of comments and I will understand, if you don't leave comments for me. I will still try to keep posting and I will try to keep posting comments from time to time, but I can't do this every day! If I do leave you a comment, you do not have to IM me with a thank you. That should save some people a little extra time for doing something else. Love Ya!!! :) Patti

Patti (CoolBreezeLady) I can definitely sympathise with the messed up hands! I've got a totally different problem to you, but my hands definitely have me crying at times too... add to that the fact that I'm allergic to most pain meds, and we are going into winter here in Australia... aarrgghh! My art helps to try to divert my attention from the kitchen knife drawer when my hands (and back, neck, and knees) are playing up... If someone leaves a comment on my work - thank you - if they don't - thank you too... lol! If I don't leave a comment on other people's works - it is not because I don't like it - it's because working shifts, running 2 websites, staffing on 2 others, having to do all of the chores around the house myself, and creating my own artworks - just doesn't leave any time to go through the thousands of works posted here and comment on all of them... Oh... and Patti... your current series of works just happen to be some of the finest works I've ever seen! I'd really love to know how you make them! T.

Who? Me?

I've spent alot of time today typing and my head is killing me, literally, so I'll keep this short. I adore surfing this site but like others have little time (or failing hands) to leave many comments. I rarely see who does an image when I click it and just like the image. If I REALLY like it I'll leave a comment regarding why I like it. Basically the same approach you've decided Linda. I know this approach leaves much more time to see and possibly comment on more images. I love how honest some have been about this and it's led to a good discussion. Not to mention this art form is my destessor. I'll be damned if I let some comment trading thing ruin it for me! Anyway my 2 cents, I'm off to find a good sharp axe for my head :P

Now that's what I consider the best compliment I have ever had!!! Thank you! I have one parameter that I have made all of my Constellation series from and I do no post work, except maybe to lighten up, or adjust the color a tad. I use Irfanview for this, so what you see is exactly how it comes out. Just like all of my Squares, they all came from the jellyfish param. If I find a great param, I stick with it untill I feel that I can no longer get any thing else out of it. To break the bordem, I might try working on another param, but always go back to the old dependable one! The Constellation param is a little tricky, and I really enjoy finding something in what most people would give up on. I love the fact that they are different and not anything like what someone else is doing. I was worried that since they are so different, no one would like them. Since I love them, that to me is what counts, I'm just glad that others seem to enjoy them too. I feel for you and your pain, I hope that you will find something that will help. I also have to use a breathing machine 4 to 6 times a day for my asthma, so my art is a great pleasure to me!!! Aging has not been very kind! LOL Try to stay healthy, Patti

Thank you for the tips Patti... I have a parameter somewhere (amongst the thousands) that looks a little like your Constellation series type... I may just have to pull it out and have a fiddle... lol! What do they say about mimicry being the ultimate form of flattery? hahaha! As for the aging thing - I'm 38 - so that might make me one of the younger ones around here... hehe! Still falling apart though... Stay healthy back at ya girlfriend! And keep on Fractaling! You be da bomb babe! T.

Who? Me?

Interesting topic! :D Here's my 2 cents: I make fractals mainly for myself, and I enjoy it greatly. I also find many of the works appearing here very inspiring, interesting, enjoyable etc. etc., and if I happen to have a spare minute or two, I'll leave comments to show my appreciation of the image in question. I try to be as objective as possible, ignoring "external" factors such as who's the author of the image and how many comments he/she has left on my works so far. Or, to be completely honest, I don't give a rat's ass about anything else than the picture itself when deciding whether I should comment or not. Like many others, I also think it's completely pointless to view and comment images just because you like the person who has posted them, or have received support from him/her. It's the art itself that should arouse comments, not friendship or 'returning the favour'. That, of course, doesn't at all mean I don't appreciate the friendships I've made here, but you know what I mean :D I often say "please comment if you find this image bland/yucky/great/interesting etc.", because I'm interested in what kind of reactions and thoughts my works may arouse in the viewers. Although it's always somewhat nice to get a bunch of "great work" comments, I appreciate one well thought out comment more, be it negative, neutral or positive. Then again, as is the case with me too, people seldom have the time to give serious consideration on any of the works they view. Often I have only time for a quick ten-word comment, or no time to comment at all, but that doesn't mean I don't like the picture! All in all, I think Linda's point is very important and should be considered by every "comment junkie". Of course it's none of my business to say what one should do or not, but I know I value 'genuine' feedback over back-patting. It's just crazy to think that someone feels a pressure to comment on my works just because I've commented on theirs. Anyway, keep your artistic energies flowing and the art coming folks, I appreciate it more than the amount of my comments may indicate ;D PS. Deagol, I don't think you should've deleted that piece of art just because there were only 3 comments. If you yourself like it, keep it on display no matter what, unless your motivation comes from getting many comments only. Besides, 50 viewings tells me it did catch the eye of many gallery visitors -- including mine!

lol they read this forum alright, and the more ya get annoyed about the V thing, the more comments you see with them too, so wouldn't be a bother, them ppls don't like to be told to stop doing this or doing that instead

also some say that they love to have constructive comments, but the one who gives them will have to go through hell in the IM's they get or the lesser comments

shrugs

you'll notice it when ppl are exaggerating in their feedback, and when i see them under my work of art, i just ignore them

i am an outsider, and use software you fractalists aren't used to, or don't understand it, so i just love the views i get on the images, and think like: "oh they have seen it, hope they enjoyed it" smile

as for me i simply don't have the time to comment much, as i have said before on earlier occasions... art, design, multimedia and web architecture is my living, and i take a lot of time to make something extra-ordinary, and i am not so in the need for the many comments either, i get like 10 comments out of 100 views, and learned that i don't have to get annoyed about it

by the time i am in a retiring state, thats around the age of 80 i reckon, i might have the time to comment on pieces of art i haven't done for 34 years LOL

till then ya may find some comments on either piece of work, i prolly would be doing that more when i use the same software most wintel users do, but i have an antipathy to them pc's

hope one day someone will make a better emulation than SoftWindows, for it hurts when ya have a G4 800MHz and Connectix makes it behave like a PII 333MHz, so i can fool around with your fractal software too

what i find 'irri' is that some images are overrated, then i make an image equivalent to those and get underrated :P so it's all really a personal matter, not by the work of art you do

so thats off my chest, i gotta watch a movie on my Mac with my daughter, she is waiting for it

have a nice week

Harmen P.S. there is no crap in this gallery, just your own :P

Message edited on: 05/22/2005 05:45

Well, I heartily agree with you, Linda. My family has recently been thrown into a critical condition, and I just don't have time to comment on all of the images. I look alot, but I don't want to leave short insincere comments. I disabled my e-bots so that I can view new artists, and there are alot of wonderful new people who are putting out some awesome work. I recently read some comments on my work and believe it or not, I saw the EXACT SAME WORDS on another artists image from the same person. Copy and paste comments. A new low in appreciation. I love you all, and occasionally I turn my bots back on to browse all of your galleries, but I, like you, would rather have a couple of sincere words that 150 pats on the back and votes that I know I don't deserve. I am sure I speak for most of the friends I have met here. A teriffic group of caring wonderful people. We just want to please everyone, myself included.

awhuh ... just keeping the peace :-P

It's been most interesting reading everyone's opinions on this subject and they have helped me to come to a decision - which is that I will judge how my pictures are doing only on the number of viewings they receive. I reason that if someone views the larger image then they must have seen something in the thumbnail that they like. Therefore I don't feel I need to have anyone's comments on the picture - the fact that they viewed it is enough for me - so I will have comments turned off in future. If I see a picture that I really want to comment on then I will send an IM direct to the artist - no reply needed. This way you will know that my comment is sincere and not influenced by anyone else. I maybe don't have the time constraints that some of you have but I certainly have the painful health problems. When things are bad, that's when I normally look at the galleries, to take my mind off all the bits of me that hurt! Hope you all understand that this is just my way of dealing with the current situation. I'm really not ungrateful for any genuine praise and help I have received in the past - far from it - but, for me, things have to change. Mags

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

One way to throw a wrinkle into this situation would be to make the gallery thumbnails anonymous, like you might see at DeviantArt:

http://browse.deviantart.com/digitalart/fractals/

Hmmm????

You know, THAT is a SUPERB idea!! Can we vote on it??

They're not really anon. If you hover over the thumbs the title and artist will appear. But it is an idea.

gee, Keith, why can't you just be happy with what you get, you can't force anyone to comment on your piece LOL unless... oh BTW did you read that interview Rick had with Rendero?

Message edited on: 05/23/2005 13:09

Ummmm... shall we just stay on topic here? We are talking about comments on works in the gallery - not about who likes whom as a person... we are all different people with different expectations... let's leave it at that OK? T.

Who? Me?

i could have fun ... [to the remark which was deleted] but better just to say... OK i think your views are correct in your mind no more said Harmen

What all of you don't see...is the simple fact, if a person didn't want to comment , then they wouldn't.I don't always comment on everyones designs. I comment because I have a feel for it somehow...so the point here is, whats the point?

Thanks, Harmen. No need to jump on Keith, y'all. He's a good friend of mine as well as a respected "mentor" who is merely trying to mould me into the artist he really thinks I can be one day. And he's typically right when he says something about me - so how can something as pure and good as truth "hurt", eh? He never means anything badly and he does a good job of keeping my head out of the clouds, too. :?) Anyhow, a couple of thoughts(quick ones, I hope - motormouth! lol). I gather the "crux of this biscuit" is stuff like the H20 and how some images that the responders of this thread think deserving(not neccessarily their own) don't get the attention they - rightly or wrongly - "deserve". 1) There is an image in the all-time top 5 fractals ever uploaded here that has 87 comments/rankings by non-fractalists. Only 14 fractal artists made a comment. Not saying its a bad pic - just that the fractallists here didn't support it much. 2) This ratio is many times repeated in the H20. But where images were getting 30-40 votes a while back, now one can top that list with like 17-20 - not too hard. I will assume many of the respondents on this thread don't rank images (if it's good enough to click, it must be pretty "excellent", no?) and also don't vote maybe because they think the system sucks. I didn't say ALL, btw. Well, by opting out of things it just exacerbates and further enables what you guys are on about and makes it very easy for people who y'all think "swap comments" to rise to the top. Most times they are pretty nifty fractals, anyhow. But just sitting here in the forum and carping won't do a thing to "fix" whatever "problem" y'all perceive. I think that everyone who responded here should do as - at the risk of sounding like a suck-up - Nick suggested a while back: VOTE and vote OFTEN, rather than opting out in disgust. There are something like 19 different artists on this thread. Though all don't seem to have a problem, if y'all went out and voted on the images you thought were "really good", you could probably get some of them onto the list, assuming your tastes are similar(and NO collusion), and a bloc of 10-15 votes might even push a "deserving" pic all the way to the top. You can't change human social nature so, "if you can't beat em', join 'em" and be a positive force for images that you think are exceptional. Ok, it got long anyhow - typical! lol Just trying to help in a positive way... Rick

A week or so ago, I read a similar posting in the forum. One of the comments made was to "try posting comments to every image and see what happens to increase the postings under your own images" -- "I'll pat your back if you pat mine"... so, I decided just to test the theory to see if this was true, because being gullible, I guess, I wanted to believe it wasn't true. Well, I guess I'll never know because I got to post on about 20 images before I ran out of steam!! LOL This is a GREAT place to learn, if not from the comments, then just by seeing what others are doing and keep trying to learn from different effects that others are creating and from some really helpful forum comments and postings. Since I travel quite a bit, I don't always get to post, either my art or comments, but I do always enjoy doing both. If I get comments on my art, its always a "feel good" just that someone took their time to view my novice efforts. I do have my favorite artists, like most people do, mostly by viewing their work and thinking, "Gee, I wish I could do that!", so I have a tendency to follow their works and try to learn from their creations; maybe if I live another 20 years or so, I might get to be half as good as one of them. :) I feel like I'm getting better, with time and practice, but I also feel that I oft times post something second or third rate, just to have something in the gallery. Not a good thing. Okay, I'm rambling... Personally, I feel like I need to spend more time practicing techniques, etc., and less time fretting about posting a piece of mediocre art, or commenting on others' work. But being a creature of human nature, I enjoy the camaraderie in a group setting, and I really enjoy seeing what others are doing even though I don't always have the inclination, or the words, to express myself. I just hope this continues to be a place of encouragement (words from others, even though they may be few and far between) and joy (from viewing others' creations). I'll shut up now.... whew!

I'm sorry Rykk but I don't think the crux of this thread has anything to do with the H20 list - does anyone really care whether they are on it or not anyway? Posting to the gallery shouldn't be a competition - it should be to share pictures, be inspired by other people's pictures and to learn from others who are more skilful if they have the time to help. I thought we were talking about lack of constructive criticism in the comments, i.e. they're all fabulous, wonderful, etc and the fact that if you don't comment on someone's picture then they won't comment on yours - talk about back to the playground! I'm definitely going to stick to my idea of judging how my pictures are doing by the number of views they receive (see post above). I don't think my opting out will affect anyone but me - and if it allows someone to 'rise to the top' as you put it (competitive again!) then good luck to them if it makes them happy.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

" I thought we were talking about lack of constructive criticism in the comments" i personally would appreciate more constructive criticism on my work. i also have difficulty with expressive language, that has sometimes also to do with not being sure what is okay to say and what isn't ie, i do not understnd this need for putting eggs and spheres onto ones work, obviously i'm not understanding what people here think is good and what isn't so it's probably better to say nothing. when i see a good flame or similar i say exactly that, it's good or i like it, which makes me sound a bit gormless i'm sure but i know how i do my work and the lighting composition etc is the last thing i look for - i haven't a clue how to make the lighting different in apo. as to the hot 20, well, it annoys me and now i ignore it, it is similar to how many comment you get on your work, i know those who are genuine will comment if they like, and, it is certainly so the less you comment on others work the less comments you recieve. it's a silly game really. not everyone has time to look at all the works but when i look at the thumbnails and click on the ones that catch my eye i comment, hopefully without having to do tit-for-tat. i appreciate comments, more constructive ones may get me out of my lazyness and lack of attention to detail, atm it is like --oh well i can post anything and it's all right and i'll get a lot of comments if i comment on oher peoples work, and, that's really not right.

Here's a sad, personal story:

A couple of years ago (has it been that long?) I made a big stink in this forum on this topic. It was a very tumultuous time for me. I went through several cycles of deleting every image in my gallery and then re-upping them. I was the top dog in the most commented gallery. I was told every day how great I was and I believed it. Generally speaking, it was good for me, but I also lost perspective. I started counting comments and watching the hot 20. I started to notice what everyone has already pointed out in this thread, and many other threads, and became frustrated and went through another cycle of deleting everything.

I didn't come to terms with this place until I learned these lessons:

1. Above all, including art, this place is a community, it's a social gathering, a party.
2. It's a free gallery and it attracts people who need to use free galleries for whatever reason. The images posted here are seldom viewed by outsiders. My images will never be found through search engines.
3. Comments and the hot 20 are cool but they are also addictive to the point where they can become an obsession and a very bad thing.
4. The only way (for me) to be happy here is to not take it too seriously. The game is real and people are playing it whether they know it or not. It's OK to play, but stay grounded. Never take anything about this place seriously, especially a 60 comment image.
5. If you want help you have to ask for it. No one will ever offer it freely because they are afraid to offend you. You have to give them permission to help you on every image. By the way, sometimes people do help.
6. Critical or helpful comments take work. That's why they are hard to come by.
7. The turnover here is fast and furious. There is always someone new and always someone leaving and in the long run we don't know the difference. I know that's cold but it's true. It's also good to see new creativity and art, even if it does leave you in the dust.

Keith

Message edited on: 05/24/2005 14:47

i have been posting here a few years too, i used to post on the mixed media because i thought if you manipulate fractals then that is not a 'pure' fractal - of course i didn't know at the time that ultra fractal is mix of image manipulation and fractal rendering software :)i agree with what you write but am not sure about point number 1, what does that mean for those who are not good or interested in the social games ?

What it means to me is if you ask for comments you are playing the social game. Never assume that the comments are there to help you improve as an artist. They are there to stroke you. Good or bad, that's what they are there for. If you want criticism or help, you have to specifically ask for it.

also, the site is what we make of it, anyone looking for a decent fractalist and who takes the shortcut and looks at the hot 20 is going to stop looking for one right there, i think.

"What it means to me is if you ask for comments you are playing the social game. " yes, a fair point. "Never assume that the comments are there to help you improve as an artist. They are there to stroke you. Good or bad, that's what they are there for. If you want criticism or help, you have to specifically ask for it." well we all like to be stroked, obviously, you have read eric burne ? :) i think i am just getting very frustrated yet again here. the hot 20 is an embarrasment but as you say it is not to be taken seriously, actually the way you put it, the whole site is not to be taken seriously, it is more a social thing ? so what other sites are there other than deviant art which has a horrible interface ?

What other sites are there - well try this one http://www.woosie.net/fracfan/index.php Some of the same people as here at Rendo but with more sense of humour and not quite so far 'up' themselves.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

Actually, I'm fine with the social thing. It's fun. As long as it is seen for what it is there is nothing wrong with it.

Thanks Keith for the honest and thoughtful posting. Your opinions are valuable not only because you are an artist (I use the term carefully) but because you also take a good hard look at things. One thing I must say however, even though I am a relative newcomer, is that in retrospect looking at my posting I think there is some correlation, however tainted it may be, between the number of comments received and the appeal of the images. [Keeping in mind of course what Vivian (tresamie) said, that it should be kept in mind that the apparent appeal is only to the folks at Renderosity.] In this sense it has value as a form of nonspecific feedback. My commenting on other's work, although somewhat sporadic, is fairly consistent in that I don't usually comment on pieces I don't consider special in some way. The number of viewings also has value after you take into account the difference an appealing thunbnail makes on the view numbers. Discussions like this one will help to make the commenting more relevent, even though people will still be people. For the record, I've given up on the H20 ever having any value artistically and don't vote anymore. And I use the ranking as only a special 'gold star' if I feel particularly strongly about an image. I would also like to say to all that we should try to keep any personal back-biting out of this forum. It really lowers the tone. Tim

i don't think the people are far up themselves whatever that means ? i am just not good at social stuff and so feel disadvantaged when the social stuff relates to how your work is viewed. some days i have huge difficulties finding words and that can last for days and then such as today today it is like normal again, if though you (i mean me, i often talk in the third person about myself) have such problems but you would like to get on as an artist then maybe renderosity is not the right site, i don't know. i actually like it here and the people but i do find it frustrating when i think i have done something particulary good. the way this is looking now is that the hot 20 is not to be taken seriously and the comments neither, so how do you judge if your work is good or not ? i am being quite serious, i have no clue.

Sorry you disapproved of my comment, sammi - I was just trying to be helpful. As you probably really know, being 'up' oneself is a polite version of another phrase and basically means that someone is full of their own importance and takes themselves far too seriously - that is how I view the people who are desperate to get in the Hot 20. The site I recommended is fun, helpful, supportive and non-competitive - Rendo could learn a lot from it. Mags

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

no, not disapprove :) i have just subbed to that site,thank you. i've also subbed to the apo list again.of course now i am now wondering if i am up myself because i actually wouldn't mind having a pic in the hot 20 :), well,more, i wouldn't mind if the hot 20 was a showcase of really good pictures that is.

"I'm sorry Rykk but I don't think the crux ..." Excuse me, are you some sort of moderator trying to tell me to butt out of this thread or something??? I've got as much right to add my meager 1.2 cents as anyone else...however misguided or not. "sorry" - most misused/insincere word in the language. Linda's original message was about "you comment on mine and I'll comment on yours" and how she had to devote time to "real life" and so therefore have to be more discriminating in her comments. Not much different from "you V mine and I'll V yours". They go hand in hand. And since its her thread and I had gotten off-topic, too - Linda, don't you feel bad about not commenting as much on people's images for one minute. You've certainly spent a LOT of time spreading good vibes around here for a long time and your selfless consideration for others is VERY appreciated and has helped create an upbeat vibe. At least by me. Not to mention turning us on to a lot of great pieces of fractal art! You haven't "contributed to ANY problems" around here - just the opposite. I'll bet there's not a one of us here that can't page back to their first post and not find your name there with an encouraging word. And not recall how good and welcome it made us feel after the nervousness of that first upload. Thanks, Linda, you deserve a break from all the madness. IMO. If you lose any "friends" over it, well they weren't real anyhow so who needs 'em? Rick

I didn't say anything about you should 'butt out of this thread' - I was simply disagreeing with you - is this not allowed? Bit of an over-reaction I'd say and I'm sorry - yes really - that you're so uptight about it. I think it simply confirms what I said earlier - that too many people here are full of their own importance. We are all equal here and therefore, I, too, am just as entitled to my viewpoint as you are, even if it does differ from yours. However, this is not the place for a protracted argument and I have no further comments to you.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

Sorry to over-react, mags61 - rough day and I get tired of reading umpteen variations of this same stuff in this forum every other month. You weren't disagreeing with me, you were judging my comments non-sequitor and not germane to the conversation. Not disagreeing with my points. To wit: "I'm sorry Rykk but I don't think the crux of this thread has anything to do with the H20 list" Seems to me that one who is "full of their own self importance" would stand off smugly on the edges of this community and would not "lower themselves" to spend a little time encouraging the other artists around here and being friendly or helpful.... Now I'm done with this, too. Rick

"how do you judge if your work is good or not ?" That's a good question. It's all so subjective. One person's masterpiece is another's cow dung. For example, I like flames but I am so tired of them. They all look the same to me, but most everyone else is in love with them. I know, a thousand times over, "do what makes you happy" That's a nice thought but it isn't very practical. If that's all I did I wouldn't need to put my images here for you to look at. I want to know if you like what I do as well as what I like to do (did that make sense?). I look at relative numbers, comparing only to myself. I usually get around 20 comments. If I get a lot more than that, it must be well liked. If I get a lot less, it must not be. That's just my theory. I don't know if it's worth anything. I'm fortunate enough to have a couple of friends who are not afraid to give a negative comment. Take a look at my latest image, there's one there. I take comments like that as a high complement. It means that the person has enough confidence in me to expect better. I may or may not act on that comment because I know it's subjective, but still, at least someone was willing to be tell me what they thought. I'm rambling, sorry.

Of course, arriving late.... This is a good discussion, and although tiring sometimes, I think it's good to get it all out every once in awhile (and we do every other month it seems). However, we do NOT need to start attacking each other. That is NOT what this forum is about. Let's try to get along, please or no-one will benefit. Mags- For one, this site IS helpful. There is always help to be found in the forums. Post a question, and you usually get the help you need, from more than one member. And fun- it can be fun if we don't resort to arguing instead of helping. Yes, this thread is about commenting, but also pertains to the Hot 20 as well. As was originally stated in the first post by Fractalinda: "I've been aware of the "you pat my back and I'll pat yours" mentality that seems to happen almost automatically..but, latley, it has become more of a concern..." It's all related, really. Getting to Keith's earlier point- If you want honest comments you have to ask for them. Unfortunately that is most often the case. How do you know if your comments will offend someone? Believe me it happens alot (I have had many many IMs and e-mails over comments in my time here). Of course, sometimes it is due to the language barrier. I am all for honest comments, as long as they don't 'attack' the art or the artist. That can be tricky sometimes, yes. But if you really want to know how well you are doing....try like Keith said- specifically ask for them under your images. And commenting without regard to 'who' the artist is, is always a good idea. And that includes voting on images, as well :D Have a great day! Nick

Nick C. Sorbin
Staff Writer
Renderosity Magazine
......................................................................................................
"For every breath, for every day of living, this is my Thanksgiving."
-Don Henley

hi degal, thanks for your reply, i'm not sure i have anything to add atm also i have spent all morning here and i really ought to do something else :) and thanks nick too. yes, i have no idea whether what i do is any good or not, if the hot 20 and comments are a measure then i think most of my work must be a bit crappy. i've tried doing stuff with eggs but it's just not me. :) i think also i may be obesssing a bit now and it is time for a break/do something else sort of thing. thanks for your comments and support.

The indicator of whether one's work is "good" or not is NOT measured by how many views or comments one gets in an ethereal place such as an internet gallery... The indicator is whether YOU like what you have created. Simple! To get all heated up about whether someone else likes your work is not worth the effort. As long as YOU are happy with it - that is all that matters in the end. Yes - there are some very fine artists here at Rendo. Some works I like, some I don't, and some just seem to be the same old same old over and over again - and that bores me to tears. Don't hold too much stock in the popularity "contests" that appear to be rife here - they are transient at best. Just enjoy creating your own works in your own style, and you will be a lot more satisfied in the long run... T.

Who? Me?

Like I said, that's a nice thought and it is true, but still, if that's all that matters, why bother with showing it to anyone? Why put it here?

" but still, if that's all that matters, why bother with showing it to anyone? Why put it here" exactly. not that i have an answer to that though. :)

"The indicator of whether one's work is "good" or not is NOT measured by how many views or comments one gets in an ethereal place such as an internet gallery..." I don't think anyone ever said that here. And I doubt there is any thinking person on this planet, certainly not any artists, who would say such a thing. Fortunately the world in general, and particularly people, are not "Simple!" We are all, all of us, much more complex than that. Part of the art thing is of course simple expression. But who will deny that another part of the artistic process is connecting with someone else? I'll bet there are very few great art works that have never been seen by anyone but the artist. This whole notion that an artist, say a pianist, will be perfectly happy forever playing only for himself is a load of rubbish. After the first year or two how incredibly boring that would be! Furthermore, I'm sure none of us has reached the point where we are so good at our craft that we don't need any feedback, ever. In order to grow we need the challenge of an audience, especially our peers. Sure there is a lot of 'peopling' going on here at Rendo, some pretty darn disgusting at times. But 'they' are 'us'. All of our motivations are basically the same when you boil it all down. Some just act on their motivations differently than others (but that's a whole other discussion). One needs to understand it and accomodate it. My view is that after taking popularity into account one can get a reasonable level of feedback from the count of views and comments. It's certainly not a perfect method but what is? I'm not implying that I'll slit my wrists if I don't get any comments on an image I submit, but I may have a good look at it to see if maybe it could use some work. Or hell, maybe it's a poor piece. They can't all be gems. Tim

"Like I said, that's a nice thought and it is true, but still, if that's all that matters, why bother with showing it to anyone? Why put it here?" Personally - I have put 2 images here in the gallery - both of them I'm mighty proud of... and both have had some good feedback I'll admit... but the feedback is not my sole motivation for posting those images. I post my images here so that maybe they will encourage someone else to try to do something similar - or maybe make someone smile - or just because I'm darned proud of them and want to share them with a very wide audience. Let's face it, this place is huge, and any work posted here has the chance of being seen by a heck of a lot of people... I have a private gallery that I post my images in - if you weant to see them, it's as simple as clicking on a link... if you don't then that is fine too... I'm not too bothered by whether my works are "popular" or my style is "pleasing" to everyone (or no-one) - I'm really into the creative process, and the way that it makes me feel. Yes - I do like comments on my work - good, bad, or indifferent - at least someone has taken the time to actually look at the image and maybe it has inspired them to say something, or just brought a smile to their face... and that, good people, is plenty for me... T.

Who? Me?

Well said, Tim!!