I haven't posted, or for that matter, tinkered in Bryce for a couple weeks; but I view gallery and this forum daily. I have noticed what seems to these feeble eyes an increase of gallery post that are full of this's or that's positioned around a scene and less and less Bryce work done short of some background and lighting tinkering. My musings are as follows:

I have been trying to learn DTE and build my own mats because use of presets is considered "old school" by some frequenting this forum

When I do render something, it will be mine (good or bad, like it or not)

There are some EXTREMELY talented folks in the community and I would love be able to download their knowledge to my brain. In their effort to help, freebie models and textures are given. They are most kind. But is this starting to have counterproductive results? How long has it been since any new Bryce tuts have been offered at this site? Instead of, "here is my newly modeled and textured widgit" would it be more beneficial to community's artistic health to say "here is my new widgit and here is how to make your own"?

Just my musing... comments or thoughts anyone?

Message edited on: 06/02/2005 21:43

drac has a really great tut on modeling in Wings.

But I agree with you. I'm pretty sure I have never downloaded a model from R'osity, although I have downloaded a photo brick texture, for use in my pic "Bloodstains". Considering the subject matter and how important that is to me, I wanted it to look at good as possible, even if it meant cheating a little.

But I'm always uncomfortable using other people's models/textures. Nearly everything I do is 100% mine. I dislike going to a pic that has 500 viewings and 30 comments, only to find a long list of downloaded items and it turns out that the image is just a conglomerate of other people's work. They download a background by someone else, use the Poser model from DAZ, download someone else's texture for it, clothing that someone else made, use a pose that someone else came up with, and then render it. I dislike doing this because I don't learn anything by doing it.

I don't mean to be offensive, those are just my thoughts on the subject.

All in all, I think it's up to the person making the pic. Some people don't have time to model and texture everything themselves, only to start it rendering and it's off to work until they come home, check on the render (oops, they shouldn't have put it on "premium", guess they'll have to wait until tomorrow lol), then go to bed.

Message edited on: 06/02/2005 21:52

yeah, you get my drift. I've got Wings but haven't started anything in it because I haven't gotten comfortable with Bryce enought to take on another. I'll download Drac's tut for when that day comes. I modeled a pocket watch and chain in Bryce awhile back and thought about submitting it to freebies because I think it's that good and I wanted to give something back to everyone; so I can understand the true reasons some do this. It is the goodness of their hearts. But now I'm wondering if it would be the right thing. More musings.. ... at this point it might be better to show image and wireframe and just say "look what Bryce can do with a lot of zooming in and bolean work.

Most of the models I've offered recently have been done in external modelers, so a tutorial wouldn't be much good in Bryce. I have actually recreated some of the models I did in Bryce in other programs, purely so they could be shared as objs (a lot smaller, and more portable). So if anyone wants a tut on how to use Solid Edge to make models, feel free to ask...

Come visit us at RenderGods.

Ignore the shooty dog thing.

Did you post a pic of it? Also you have to see that it would take a lot more work to make an entire tutorial on how to make the model than simply to upload and let people use it how they will (either in their own pix, or just pick it apart and see what makes it tick). I'm not saying that our friendly neighborhood free stuff artists wouldn't be willing to do this, BUT they likely don't have time. So they just post the freebies and hope that someone would learn from it, or make a good scene with a lot of original stuff as well.

Please don't take these musings as negative. I know tuts are time consuming just as the original work was. On a simpler scale maybe something like "here's my widgit and here is mat settings, learn and play" or "here's a coat hanger but wire can't be modeled in Bryce" I don't know, I'm rambling Hey, Agent Smith, how about a new tool for Bryce6.0 that you could select a special spherelike object then drag it along x,y,z axis simultaneously by moving mouse and scrolling third button at same time to "draw" a wirelike object in 3D space. Could that be done in less than a million lines of code?

There are artists who paint from their minds eye. There are artists who paint models or scenery. There are artists who sculpt. There are artists who take bits of metal they find in junk yards and weld them together into something new. There are artists who take everyday objects and arrange them in interesting ways to convey a message. You may like one form over another, but how can you say any one of these is any less an "artist" than any other? So long as their piece conveys the message or emotion they were striving for, or better yet evokes that emotion in me the viewer, then they have accomplished what they set out to do. When one of my favorite artists here does a piece I really like I don't stop to ask if every nch of it is their creation. I marvel at the finished work...THAT is what makes them a favorite of mine. The finished work. Not the choices of medium they made along the way.

@ claymor no, no, no you misunderstand. I absolutely adore all of the work of a very talented artist that frequently post here (I'll mention the name if necessary) That person takes the kitchen sink, sculpt, photo and whatever and makes me very happy. I'm more musing about for those who do want to learn the nuts and bolts. PS. reference #1 It was not me that insinuated Bryce artist weren't "with it" unless they never used presets and what not. I was one of the ones that was made to feel substandard by some for NOT KNOWING HOW.

Ahhhhh...gotcha. http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1154601 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1947683 When I learn nuts and bolts stuff I tend to post it like in the exmaples above rather than doing a full blown tut. The first is some metaball interactions and the second, if you scroll down a bit, the use of the intersect boolean. I stay all the way away from the DTE though. :)

yeap, I'm harpooned. ;) made you think, though

I learn a lot from downloading other peoples models. I never use them but if I see a model and say wonder how they did that I download it and disect it. It shows me how some people work and gives me ideas on how to improve my own. I use only my own models for the most part for my renderings but seeing hwo someone else does something is good to know.

Message edited on: 06/03/2005 00:08

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Through downloading other people's freebies I got through my first year of learning my way round the basics of 3D of graphics generally (as I'd never had any artistic training at all). It was a lot to take in and the delight of being able to make pictures just how I 'saw' them in my mind's eye was the thrill of my life. This carried me through into what is now my second year in which seeing other people's stuff, and what they can do with it is spurring me into wanting to make more and more for myself. I probably would have failed at the first hurdle without the first year of 'success' with freebies. So I think it all depends where you're at with your own artistic ability and creativity. I think some people are perfectly content with not making their own things and that's fine. Me, now I see people's freebies, especially textures, I get them and install them so I can take them apart and see how they run ;) I've not noticed a shortage of Bryce tutorials at all though. Always seemed like whatever I wanted to know a quick search on Google would take me there. Or a question in the forums usually brings a host of varied answers.

Dann-o-- Yes, that seems to be the best way to me. Claymor-- Don't mean to make anyone feel "substandard". Shucks, my stuff is nowhere near as good as, say, drac's or drawbridgep's. BUT, don't you agree that it is beneficial for someone to continue learning about their craft, down to being able to design EVERYTHING? This is my goal, one day I hope to not even use Poser figures, but make my own in Wings and just use Poser to pose them, making my own textures. I'm nowhere near to that point yet, but I'll keep trying this, learning that, and keep trying to improve and never hit any "plateaus". I think that even abstract artists that just take stuff from junkpiles and weld it together, thus managing somehow (I have no idea how they do it) to evoke some emotion or other, should still learn something about metalworking and sculpture, thus making their art even better. Maybe I'm just too technically minded. But I joined Renderosity to learn new things and become better at this. I don't know if I'll turn this into a career (too early in my life to be making a decision like that), BUT I still want to get better and better at it, never staying at the level I'm at, but continually pushing the envelope. Who knows? Maybe one day I'll be making stuff on par with Rochr, and the other Bryce "gods". Unlikely, but always possible.

For me the downloading of free models is cheating of my self not the others :)

Open your mind and share the knowledge!

Skill, my friend, I look at it this way : If you were making a movie, you wouldn't, say, learn to build every automobile in the movie from scratch, would you? That said, I refuse to use anyone else's props, except for Incarnadine's katana, which rules and stars in at least two of my scenes...! It depends on where you're at, and where you're going. I needed to learn Rhino, so I am, and I can make just about anything in that program. I agree with your first post, Skill. There are many, many multitudes of "sheep" that use Bryce on a minimal level, with no ingenuity, innovation, or drive. They are in all senses of the word, "Rookies". Or "Newbies", if you prefer. That's okay, though. It only serves to make the good stuff stand out. Sometimes you'll see rookies giving other rookies praise for the crappiest art ever. That's okay, too! Let them be sub-standard. Now stroll through the galleries and take note : Almost ALL of the best Brycers hang out here, in the forums. We are the ones developing new techniques, new stuff, and new ideas. We are the ones progressing constantly. And we will be the ones moving on to bigger, better things. All the experience you gain with Bryce can only help when it comes time to choose your own personal "Big Dog". Sounds greedy, but I've been doing computer-art since it's inception. In 1980, I was doing pixel art in four colors on a TRS-80, with a joystick to paint with! I was four... As for Tutorials : ask, and you shall receive. They happen every day, here in the forums. If there's anything you'd like to know, just ask. Chances are, someone knows how, or at least how to make a workaround! But random tuts? Honestly, when I make those, I get little or no response. Maybe mine suck, but at least TELL me they suck! And what's important or technically exciting to me may not be, to anyone else. Make any sense?

"If you were making a movie, you wouldn't, say, learn to build every automobile in the movie from scratch, would you?" Right, but it's still important to know how the automobile works, and that might include even a rough sketch of how it is built. Look at "Minority Report", that whole fight scene in the car factory. Otherwise, you end up with ten pages of technical goofs on IMDB.com, written by embittered engineers with nothing better to do with their time. =) But I agree with everything you said, LSD. I was looking for galleries once before R'osity on Lycos.com, and came across an ENORMOUS number of Bryce pix that were nothing more than just a mountain coming out of water with a default texture and a default sky. Made me feel a bit better about my artistic skills at the time. =) And I have learned more in a month of perusing the forums, answering questions, helping to answer questions, and asking questions myself and getting them answered, than I did in seven years (fact!) of random Brycing on my own with no tutorials save the ones on the Content CD.

I perfer random tutorials found in the foum most of the time. PIJDY showed us all how to make some cool mechanical or sick organic backgounds and terrains that to me are very cool. I did make a radial engine tut over in wings in the forums. A formal tutorial is a bit more difficult to make you have to not assume that the reader knows anything and it makes the process tedious. I like having those when I begin but once you are going the sort of forum tut is very helpful. Oh thats how you get those material etc. I do agree on the use of other peoples models for everything is a bit too much. It is a way to get you started but once started learn the craft. I am still earning more about this every day.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

I perfer random tutorials found in the foum most of the time. PIJDY showed us all how to make some cool mechanical or sick organic backgounds and terrains that to me are very cool. I did make a radial engine tut over in wings in the forums. A formal tutorial is a bit more difficult to make you have to not assume that the reader knows anything and it makes the process tedious. I like having those when I begin but once you are going the sort of forum tut is very helpful. Oh thats how you get those material etc. I do agree on the use of other peoples models for everything is a bit too much. It is a way to get you started but once started learn the craft. I am still earning more about this every day.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

;-p Dann-O. I've promised too a tut on how painting the "dirty" textures.. the image for the tut is done, now I gotta write it down.. and it take me more time that I was expected.. just because I got some language gaps... and the photoshop I use is in French.. so I gotta translate the menus and dialogue boxes.. Anyway.. I will post it Now to answer Skiwilgee : you said : "In their effort to help, freebie models and textures are given. They are most kind. But is this starting to have counterproductive results? " You may consider a free texture or model as a tut by itself.. import it, download it and look at how it was done.; check the settings in the DTE and try your own setting.. A tut may help.. but experiment is the best way for some knowledge to be yours... I 'm quiet frustrated because I would like to gently argue.. but I miss my words.. sorry Pidjy The Frenchy ;-p

Where is pidjy's tut? I missed that, saw the thread, but no tut. =(

pidjy-- I piggybacked ("pidjybacked"? lol) on your message! Sorry, stomped on you there. =) Debates are great so long as they don't get out of hand. Sure you don't want to take a stab at it?

Not really a tut but he showed how he got some lines and things made with one of his organic textures before. It is not a formal tut. I learned a lot from it. Learning in the forum means you have to fill in a few gaps here and there. I know what you mean pidjy I have photoshop in Chinese. Accck!!!! I dont read Chinese and can't really guess. So I use an old version (5.5)that I have in English. For me because I am familar with Bryce and how it works a simple few words often clears things up for me. On the other hand I am trying to learn Blender a few words is not enough.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

hmm..depends on you motivation. I have about 50-60 megabytes of tutorials downloaded (including every 1-scene thread 'tut' from the last 3 years). I have every Dr. Geep tutorial that I know of (has his own directory..;). Aside from looking at a Poser background tut (and of course, the inestimable Drac's spaceship tut..you...you enabler!..;) I've yet to crack one.
Having Wings is what weaned me from Booleans. I started out years ago doing things with Bryce primitives, but I think I have an alergic reaction to Booleans from a course in Boolean Algebra (probably the algebra part..;).
Once you have a modeler, you can make your own stuff. I use other people's textures, with an occasional tweak, but me eyes glaze over from DTE tuts..don't know why..;) As or painting what's in my minds' eye, my brain comes up with pics like Ornlu's and Orbitals..I just can't transfer it to the screen..que lastima..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Kathye-- yes there are good tutorials to be found but another point is why aren't more found here at R'osity tuts? This is best gallery and has the best Bryce minds and tons of free stuff. For a new Brycer, that's where they look. I did and still do. As for forum tuts and mini-tuts, that is why I visit here daily. Not to miss anything. Thing is, it took me nearly 8 months to discover this playground of knowledge. You have to gleen as much as you can here between what is tips and what are quips. Sometimes it is puzzling though... like trying to learn Chinese by listening to a Chinese radio station instead of taking a class in Chinese. Still, many thanks to what happens here. It was through a thread here I found Robinwood's site and tutorials

(Time for my two-cent's-worth.) As a provider of freebie models at 3D Lapidary, my purpose was to give -technically correct- models to 3d artistic community. It was, first, a way of repaying the kindnesses shown in places like this forum when I first started, and, second, to allay my own dissatisfaction at seeing the stuff that was being used at the time. I also included in the site a full description of my methods of creation, so anyone who wanted to go to the bother of doing it themselves, could do so. (But I truly don't think that many go to all that trouble.) Yes, it is a very small niche market, but I like to think I have helped my fellow artists just a little. And that is what gives me the greatest satisfaction.

RosemaryR
---------------------------
"This...this is magnificent!"
"Oh, yeah. Ooooo. Aaaaah. That's how it starts.
Then, later, there's ...running. And....screaming."

I too feel that just having the model, texture, material is okay, if you're in a hurry. But it is nice to actually see how someone did something, and a tutorial can (if made simple enough) show you that and thus show you how you can change things yourself. Downloading - say - a texture and then trying to figure out how someone made it by looking at the settings - for me, doesn't work. That's because I know too little, I don't understand what changing ... for instance... the octave in some component of a texture will do to it - okay so I can try it, but that sort of trial and error can occupy a person for many years - me anyway. Now downloading a texture AND a tut on how to make it - is way better. But no one does that For instance what if you want to make... cottage cheese? I download lots, and use as much of it as I can, but I also like to play around in texturing, modeling in Wings and Bryce, and playing in the materials. The more I can make for myself, the better pleased I am, but it shouldn't stop being fun - if there were more tuts you could do both! Like I downloaded Drac's Awesome Buildings, opened Bryce, and started a scene with them but the next thing I did was to make some buildings of my own - I now have a scene with Drac's buildings and MY buildings too - very satisfying.

Measure your mind's height
by the shade it casts.
Robert Browning (Paracelsus)

Fran's Freestuff

http://franontheedge.blogspot.com/

http://www.FranOnTheEdge.com

...New Brycers: If I have the time I'll respond to a question, more times than not I'll give you a screen shot due to the fact I've already completed that particular operation more times than I can count. It's all in knowing your tools, which IMHO is your main objective(not only Bryce, but every tool that will allow you to acheive a desired result). I also urge you to read everything that comes through this forum and others that pertain to Bryce FAQ's/Answers. ...Intermediate Brycers: Read, Read, Read....Apply, Apply, Apply. Push your processor till it bleeds, because this will help you to understand your limits in this application (and others). Ask about everything, you'll even come up with things the pros don't know but will be intrigued to experiment along with you. I usually post components of latest images (as do most other seasoned users), with screen shots and abbreviated explanations. You will probably learn more from this method than following a TUT step by step (I know I do). Lastly, Experiment...water mats can do more than water.ETC! ...Bryce Masters Just ask & it's yours. Also...Thanks for everything. I've probably tried every aspect of Bryce, what I don't feel comfortable with, I shift gears & go onto the next thing. I can create in Bryce and I like to import anything & everything. I probably have one of the biggest mish-mash galleries out there. 3D & 2D crossover. Enough carrying on by me. Thanks to everyone Old & New(Bryce Chronology). I've learned from all & continued due to your support. ICM/Rod

___
Ockham's razor- It's that simple

My take on this is sometimes I like to use a particular person's freebie a) because I can't make it myself and I need it for a scene or b) because I can't make it myself and I absolutely love it. I try to do most of a scene myself, I can usually do decently about 80% to 95% on my own, but usually need a little something that I can't do myself to help elevate the scene. That said, freebies are a good thing. As long as they aren't the whole thing. But then there are artists who do collage work and that is essentially the same as taking a bunch of freebies and arranging them, so its all art its just a personal taste thing. :)

From my end, i'd like to amend my previous statement : I use 3dlapidary models for all of my gems! thank you very, very much Rosemaryr... i appreciate all the time you have saved me, over the years.

Rosemaryr-- I think your models are a bit different, because they are so technically minded. 3dlapidary provides perfect, real-life gemstones, cut the way they would be in real life. I wouldn't mind learning how to do that myself. But I'm no gemcutter. BUT, aside from the fact that I can't get your gems to work in Bryce =( I still try to make my own. ICM-- Funny, exactly the path I took. Does that make me a Bryce Master? =) Don't answer that, never mind. =) (I consider myself Intermediate, BTW--how do you classify if you know the program well, but know nothing about basic artistic composition?) And yup, water can also be used for Predator cloaking among other things. Something I learned fairly early on. And I think that Rochr also has a really mishmash gallery also, 2D/3D meshing perfectly and looking like one solid pic.

shinyary2, "water can also be used for Predator cloaking among other things" Oh? I never thought of that. How do you use it? What are the "other things"? I mean I see that you could make blood, or martinis, or mud from water mats, that sort of thing - what else though apart from Predator Cloaking?

Measure your mind's height
by the shade it casts.
Robert Browning (Paracelsus)

Fran's Freestuff

http://franontheedge.blogspot.com/

http://www.FranOnTheEdge.com

Fran-- I used "Caribbean Resort" as my base texture. I then fiddled with the settings, and Viola!!! There it is. You can see my settings and results above. Refraction is the key here. It will distort things behind. You can also use this texture to create "bullet time" pix from the Matrix. Metaballs are useful for this. Main problem with this method is that, if you put too many cloaked objects in a row with the camera, Bryce messes up because it can't distort that much, and you just get black holes. I'll start a thread on that; if someone can help me with that, I'll be very, very happy. =)

Shinyary2-- Black holes? Could it be because of 6 maximum individual ray bounces in rendering? If so that will always put a finite limit to distortions. I seem to remember an example in Kitchen's book about that trying to do infinite mirror bounces.

AWESOME!!!! skiwillgee, you are a genius. Thanks very much there mate. Lots of intersections here, lost count... ray depth set at 80 and it renders fine. LOL!

shinyary2-- HA! Genius! never, lucky guess really. I can't live with a big head :-) lol. you keep posting, I'll keep reading I'll catch up to you around 2011AD

...by odd coincidence, right around the same time they want to have the space elevator working (sometime about 2010). I think you have much better chance than they do lol.

i also think since the program hasnt had any major new features in years all aspects of it are covered in tuts already. If there are new features that needs explaining there will be new tuts. so ask DAZ for new features first.

for some free stuff i made
and for almost daily fotos

Agree with FranOnTheEdge...I personally don't have the free time to commit to learning every detailed aspect of model creation and such. Learning to navigate around any 3D program is very difficult for most people, and I am no exception.

Most tuts become a blurr to me...so it's trial and error (which I find more fun). Discovering how to accomplish a task, or just tinkering around can be very gratifying...especially when the result is not what you were shooting for,but better!

I have had Bryce 5 for more than a year now...will continue to use freebies and such, and refuse to feel guilty for being a Newbie with limited knowledge and talent.

My suggestion for a monthly challenge>>> EGO...no PW, no imported models (Poser and all other apps included) only Bryce textures and materials.

Interesting discussions! Well if communities or art websites wanted people to create and "learn" by making their own models and mats then they should encourage so !! It doesnt help when you have 10000 freebies on one site, 2000 on another and so on. You put a freebie up and people WILL use it. Some site love themselfs too much by only talking about how many freebies i got/you got. What about the sites that depend on its vendors for income? Where would we be then? Is up to the individual artits (rookie or otherwise) to use that object as best he/she can. You might be doing a scene and be stuck for hours or days only to wonder into a freeby section and find exactly what u were thinkin off. Also we (rookies!) sometimes might render a piece with a freebie and help promote that object and have other members to visit the vendors page/s. I would feel very happy with anybody using my models (free or otherwise). This is not Industrial Light and Magic or Digital Domain. We're doing what we can with what we have. Bryce is limited and not 3d max!. If we learn "How to make it" in the process great!, if not move on. if we (rookies) are not liked for what we do or try to, then why allow us to be a part of a communite?. A simple "your art is poo poo", come back when ur older will do. But then a lot of websites would be empty of talent and inspiration for new and upcoming artist. Let people play i say. Life too short. Alex

To sum things up : Freebies suck, turn up your Ray Depth when you get nulls, and rookies are totally cool because they feed my elitism, arrogance, and thus inspire ridiculous screen names that make people think I'm eilitist and arrogant. Omac, you're hardly a beginner, silly! Oh yeah, I guess I'm gonna have to take a stand on this one since nobody else will. I don't mind hatemail or mockery, anyway : Make your own models, people. It's not that hard. Wings is even cheaper than Bryce, somehow, and is a great program.

Well I agree with some of what some people say, and not other parts... I still think freebies are an essential part of learning to use 3D programs, Bryce for me, other progs for others. I seem to collect a lot of freebies, but now and then either a freebie will have me saying - I can make one of those, or - I can make one of those and twist it to include this... and that, and even maybe end up with a totally different thing. Or even - I can't find a freebie to fit what I want, I'll make it myself. Or sometimes just browsing the freebies I'll find myself urged to just play with either wings or bryce (bryce I'm playing with nebulae and booleans at the moment) Wings I'm trying to figure out a bat, without much luck just now so that can be quite frustrating. I don't think freebies suck exactly, I mean look at some of the robots, or spaceships, or Harrison's train - man! There's just no way I could ever make such a train model, unless it was a wooden pull along toy, that's more my mark, and those aren't the sort of models I'd ever use... I don't think. So basically I think freebies are a great jump start to learning, even if there will always be people who just use freebies and presets, that's up to them, but if we create Bryce Gods along the way, then that's excellent! (or any other Gods, come to that).

Measure your mind's height
by the shade it casts.
Robert Browning (Paracelsus)

Fran's Freestuff

http://franontheedge.blogspot.com/

http://www.FranOnTheEdge.com

FranOnTheEdge-- Always remember that any gods we create, even if it is in our own mind, will always be a "g" and not a "G" I hope. I will salute and offer mucho praise to those here who have the Bryce software nailed and have forgotten more about it's use than I will ever hope to learn, I will bow to only one God. Sorry, I don't want this most excellent discussion to turn religious. I agree to what you I think you are implying. "Pedistals" yes, (no gods) and there is always an avenue and room for someone else to rise to a pedistal no matter if it started as freebie posing. That's one of the reasons I started this thread. For those already on the pedistals I say, "show the path" Did that make sense?

omac-- Agreed with LSD, you have no right calling yourself a beginner. =) Also, please understand that none of us (least of all me) are trying to discourage rookies, but rather to encourage them. The goal is to learn, essentially, right? Yes, picking apart models that other people have made helps you to learn a lot, and I have to problem with that. My problem is when some people don't try to learn anything from it, but simply use the models in an extremely basic fashion. They are simply hurting themselving, hitting a plateau and never increasing their skills. LSD-- I haven't budged an inch, either. And drac's robot is awesome, far better than a lot of the commercial stuff. He should have sold it. =) Fran-- Same thing as I said to omac, the goal is to learn and if you learn from it, then great! ...but if you don't, then you are putting yourself on a plateau and will never climb any higher. This is why I make almost all of my own models, because I learn so much more that way. Although it is certainly their choice, they should consider trying to learn to make their own models so that they can improve instead of staying at the same skill level. ski-- Yes, it's grammatically incorrect to use a capital "G" for any but the Christian God (although it's debatable exactly what is meant by that, usually considered to be Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Mormon, etc.). I think I was the one who coined the term "Bryce god"? If I didn't, I didn't get it from anyone else and it's just one of those massive coincidences in life that Douglas Adams found so amusing. =)

Agreed, SkillMaster, and very well-stated!

shinyary2-- I goofed I didn't want to turn this religious. -- Douglas Adams-- I haven't seen movie but read his books. You may be on to something there. If I remember it right the answer to ALL the questions is.............(drum roll please)............... (more drum roll)......"42"

So long, and thanks for all the fish. YES!!! Inspiration!! I'm going to have to do a pic on that soon as I'm done with my "Traug" pic. I have read every single book in Adams' Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy series, read them all before the movie came out. Books are better in my opinion but I still enjoyed the movie. See you at the restaraunt at the end of the universe!

There's the radio version of Hitch-hikers on at the moment, I miss the TV Ford Prefect's voice but Zaphod, Trillian, and Arthur Dent's voices are all the same, and there's more things in this radio version - wish I could get a copy of it, I've missed the beginning and only found out about it near the end. Sorry about the big g, I type too fast, trying to keep up with the witter that comes out of my brain.

Measure your mind's height
by the shade it casts.
Robert Browning (Paracelsus)

Fran's Freestuff

http://franontheedge.blogspot.com/

http://www.FranOnTheEdge.com

My personal evolution: 1. Learned the basics of rendering in Bryce, and posing Poser figures, bringing them into Bryce. (Bryce and Poser were once made by the same company, and I got both in a special deal). 2. Learned the basics of modeling in Bryce, downloaded a lot of freebies, because I had ideas but lacked the ability to model complex models, but still wanted to make the images I could see in my mind's eye. 3. Began to learn Wings, improved my work in the DTE, etc. Been a while since I've made an image with freebies (other than Poser and Daz ones- I still can't model good organics). Point? When you are learning to use Bryce, don't agonize about using Poser or freebies, or whatever. Concentrate on mastering Bryce basics: textures, primatives, lighting, etc. Modeling can come later. Use freebies. There should be NO stigma attached to doing that. Let beginners learn. Encourage them, people! I'll bet you received more encouragement than you remember when you were starting out. I will never tell anyone, oh, you should do this, you should do that. Do what makes you happy. Don't waste time making rules for other people, give everyone time to learn. And spend more of your time learning. Then show me what you can do. Teach me something new. :^) John

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

I disagree, TJohn. Promoting mediocrity for the sake of "being nice" is why the entire Bryce gallery is full of crap, and precisely why nobody takes Bryce seriously. Telling people that garbage looks good only holds them back from growth. They come to expect less of themselves because they think it's "okay" to make crap. It doesn't help them, it hinders them more. But, like in all things, there's a balance between the two POV's that is the key. And, above all, patience.

In some cases using freebees is fine. Don't make them the central point of your picture. But remeber if you use freebees most likley you will not be allowed to profit from your work you will have to contact people about use of their work in a comercial venture. You are in a place with freebees leagally where you actually don't own your work. So it is a good idea to learn how to make a few things so in the future you have rights to your own work. If you don't have a lot of time to work on pictures then make fewer of them. Take your time and make a few cool things. Sometimes even a weak model if put in the right context looks good. I did one picture whre i limited myself to doing my objects in a more game graphics limitations. Less than 1k poly per model and 512x512 image just to see if I can do it. Turned out fine. When you start modeling the things is that it is not something instant it is not super easy but it is satisfying. When you model things work within your own limitations and learn how to model. Later branch out and do more learn more and then you will have fewer limitations. Noone is great at all things the skill set is just to huge to be able to do all things.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

yup..he has a point. Sci-fi mag approached me to use one of my pics, and the deal fell through because Mr. Maya never responded to my inquiries for permission..;) There's all sorts of things involved with models, such as making them 'rigged' for applications (smoothing here, hardening there, texturing, UVMapping [for those who understand it..;]).
Everybody has to start somewhere..usually at the beginning. I think one reason that Sturgeon's law holds (99% of everything is crap), is that it takes a long time to get a pic right. Not just in terms of composition or rendering time, but just learning how to get Bryce to do what you want to. If you look closely, you'll see the really good artists don't put out a picture a day, sometimes even a week.
Some folks will only rise to a certain level, but that's ok. It's like any other field of endeavor, you do what you can. As long as you're having fun..

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Aye, Rochr just put out his newest pic in several weeks I think. And czarnyrobert (who did the "famous" appeal) does them maybe once a month. I tried spending a month on an image once, and it turned out terribly. I now spend between three days and a week on them, sometimes longer. But I very rarely put out something that took me fifteen minutes to make, and then it's usually a model or an effect of some sort. And I have a lot more time to spend on a pic per day (I spent eight hours straight on my "Traug" pic, and it's still not finished), because it's summer, I'm in school, and no summer classes, and of course I'm a geek and so I have no life. =) I think that newbies should download a model and learn what makes it tick. Modify it in some way before using it in your pic, if you absolutely must use it in your pic. Better yet, take a look through it, try to recreate it on your own. As Dann-o said, if you ever want to profit from your work at all, you must do everything yourself. This is yet another reason why I am leery of using other peoples' work, because I may want to profit from it or give it to someone else to use commercially. Bottom line, learn to make your own models. Maybe you can't do it now, but it will pay off in the long run.

Aye, it's called a learning curve for a reason! Like learning everything, the more you do it, the easier it becomes to do... I remember starting out in 3D with Ray Dream Studio 5, which eventually became Carrara. I had no idea what I was doing! I just knew I wanted to do it... Problem with that whole situation was I got Brcye 3d (it moves!) at the same time. And Poser 3. I thought of it like : Bryce for landscapes, Poser for people, RDS for putting it all together and "finishing" images. Never finished one image in RDS, although I learned nearly everything there was to know about it. In the end, everything ended up in Bryce, which had MUCH better rendering, greater ease of use, and of course the Materials Lab. So I just used RDS as a modeler for awhile. And then I found Rhino, after trying demos for Amapi and Truespace. It flowed. I was making stuff easily the first time I used it! But even so, I've nowhere near mastered Rhino, although I feel like I can make anything in the world! It's a very free-feeling program, to me. It CLICKED into my brain... But there's a whole nother side to this whole debate, and that is the Character side. I still haven't ever modeled an entire character, or rigged anything more than tentacles. I've been working on a NURBS dragon head for years, and gotten nowhere. I don't know if I'll ever dip into this area, so to overstate my Hypocrisy completely : I use Poser. "Why don't you model all your own people, Mr. Smarty Pants?" Because I hate Poser. And because I suck at character modeling. Too boring for me, I like to see results in less than a year. Maybe I'll learn it one day, but not today, and not tomorrow. So if I seem elitist or obnoxious about this topic, just laugh and go, "He can't even model a DRAGON head! HA!" Take that, Self. You whimp.

LSD-- #53 I'm almost starting to like you---- LOL haha You let your guard down, maybe you are a human, albeit one with great technical skills and more than a lions share of artistic talent. Don't change who you are. None are here by accident.

skiwillgee-- Nah, LSD's a dark sorcerer. Everybody knows that, he's not human. =) LSD-- Just out of curiosity, none of my business, but are people calling you elitist? You seem to mention it a lot, so one merely wonders. I think you are helpful and value your comments. But that's just me I suppose. =)

No, nobody calls me an elistist but myself, Shinyary. I FEEL like my own personal issues affect my judgement, in non-emotional situations like Renderosity forum threads. My problem is arrogance as a shield. The REAL problem with that is that I feel things like pity and shame for feeling bad about feeling superior. It's a webwork of silliness, but to sum it up I don't want to alienate anyone, I fear alienation towards myself and others... And my need to feel important is an extension of my drive to visit this site and to share and learn. My shame comes in because I already know nearly everything this proggy has to offer. And I fear that even THINKING this is cutting me off from learning more. And also, I fear that people think I'm some kind of asshole, because I often come across that way. I wish I could summon the patience I have for my son for my dealings with the 3D world, in general. Or with myself. Imagine that, infinite patience with YOURSELF? Now there's something to sleep on... Goodnight, my friends! So, I suppose right now I'm just at a point where i analyze everthing too much, including mine and other's artwork. For every critique I put out to others, I probably give myself a thousand that day for my own projects. Perfectionism? Compulsion? Some kind of insane psychotic episode? Nah, I just am NOT where I wanted to be with 3D right now. I still cannot express myself with it, only rarely do my images mean anything to me other than relating stories. If I can't portray my emotions in my artwork, who's the newbie, anyway? Pah. I suck at translation. My emotions are lost in the AMD interference. I guess that gives me something to work on...

Awww, poor LSD, ain't it a shame? There there there. ggg I learn a good deal from your critiques, and I haven't yet found you too harsh... yet... I am in awe of your abilities and those of others like Rochr, Drac, Rayraz... oh heck pretty much everybody here. If I haven't mentioned anybody it's cos I have a brain the size of a pea and a memory like a sieve and I ache - just been planting pepper plants for my brother - and did I do it right? Not on your nelly! Rah rah freebies, Rah rah Wings, Rah rah Bryce modelling, booleans, the DTE, playing with mats... oh everything - it's all such FUN.

Measure your mind's height
by the shade it casts.
Robert Browning (Paracelsus)

Fran's Freestuff

http://franontheedge.blogspot.com/

http://www.FranOnTheEdge.com

oh crap, now I do like this LSD guy. he's alive... He's Alive...HE'S ALIVE !!! (insert maniacal laugh) LSD--- How old is your son.. Mine as 17, driving, and wanting money for college.. (insert fear hear) PS to all who have entered this thread-- This has been a learning experience for me. I know there are those who just read and haven't ever the nerve to submit or comment. The differing views on freebies and such has helped more than you may imagine. So, before this thread dies, go render and learn, no matter which path you take. LSD is human!!!!

LSD you are not so arrogant but on occasion I had to look at the top of my browser. I thought this must be CG talk. I know how you feel I am nowhere near where I want to be with this and I have been at it for some time. Character modeling and animating are still eluding me and that is where I want to go. Oh well.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Yup, LSD and Dann-o, I think that anyone (myself included) who thinks he is at the best he can be in anything has hit a definite plateau and will never learn. I look at, say, MarioG's gallery, and if you go to his first images posted, well... to be blunt, they are crap. But look at his latest image, and it's about the best that Bryce can offer. So there is hope for me yet! =) And don't beat yourself up too much LSD. People like me, like Fran, really do value what you say because it is worthwhile. And Dann-o, same with me, I want to learn organic modeling but I'm not ready to even try yet. Maybe I'll try soon as I'm done with my "Traug" pic.

LSD: "Promoting mediocrity for the sake of "being nice" is why the entire Bryce gallery is full of crap, and precisely why nobody takes Bryce seriously. Telling people that garbage looks good only holds them back from growth. They come to expect less of themselves because they think it's "okay" to make crap. It doesn't help them, it hinders them more." This is not my point of view. I didn't say anything of the sort. At best, this an extremely loose interpretation of what I said. I said to encourage beginners, and let them use freebies and Poser until they understand Bryce better. Then they can make their own stuff. I didn't say to tell them that every "sphere over water" is a masterpiece. I mean, encourage them, instead of beating them over the head with their own lack of experience. There's a big difference. I'm not mad about all the words that have been shoved into my mouth, but maybe I should be. Wouldn't you? :^) Peace, Love, and Understanding, John

This is not my "second childhood". I'm not finished with the first one yet.

Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather....not screaming in terror like the passengers on his bus." - Jack Handy

Getting back to the issue with using freebies in commercial render, that's why a few of my freebies are in the PD now, and the others I just like to know if people have used them. I put a freebie up to be free, so I don't restrict it to just non-commercial. Which reminds me to check some of my earlier licences, as this is a relatively new idea of mine...

Come visit us at RenderGods.

Ignore the shooty dog thing.

Only been learning 3D graphics for about 1-1/2 years now...think that's pretty new considering the amount of information to learn and digest. My opinion is that most of you have been using 3D for many years and have completely forgotten the fear one feels when they post their first image...how relieved they feel when someone makes a nice comment (even though it may be very rudimentary image). I truly believe that encouraging comments keep people learning and not give up. I have commented on many beginner's work and watched them improve dramatically in short periods of time. Should I have waited to comment until they actually produced a masterpiece? I do NOT believe that commenting on beginner work keeps them creating beginner work. If they create an image that is crude but used color skillfully, I'll say so. next time they will pay attention to their use of color and get even better at it. I can say this because this is what I experienced with the kindness of comments on my first "crappy" postings. Nancy

Burpee-- True. I think LSD was actually the first one to ever comment on any of my images that I posted here (As I recall, it started out, "Aye, it's wonderful..."). He pointed out a few things I should fix after giving a complement. I think that this is the way to go. If someone does want to learn, then they will appreciate your advice, whether they take it or not. If someone does not want to learn, but just continue the way they are going, then no matter what you do they will not learn. This is an axiom, but nevertheless: people do not learn unless they want to. Therefore I think the best formula (and the one I always tend to follow) is: "complement + advice + complement = encouragement". =) And there generally is something good about every image that you can find to point out. Nobody likes only criticism all the time.

That makes sense Shinyary. When I was on a mentorship course we were taught the idea of giving the 'praise sandwich' which was 'praise, criticism, praise' ie if you have something you need to get a person to improve upon you will get them to listen to you better if you first get their rapport by telling them something positive, then put in the thing that needs work, then end on a positive note. Having had to work in environments where my boss believed that telling us everything we did was crap with the belief that this was the way to motivate us to prove him wrong, and in environments where I got praise sandwiches I can honestly say my performance (and mental health) was a hundred per cent better in the latter. And LSD, though your comments on things to improve are exacting, they have never felt personal to me and I have appreciated your input without feeling criticised. I'd say you have a valuable skill. I think many people share a tendency to have more patience out in the world than with their own families, either internet or workplace. It's one of those facts of being human.

Patience is the key, in all things. "Do not be quick to reveal judgment. Hidden judgment often is more potent. It can guide reactions whose effects are felt only when too late to divert them. " --Bene Gesserit Advice to Postulants (Frank Herbert, "Chapterhouse : Dune")

LSD, you're starting to make me actually want to read "Dune". Stop it at once! =)

Dune should be required reading, before people can have sex or godforbid, procreate. I think the Creator should have everyone read it and take a comprehension quiz prior to binding our souls into physical bodies, or something. It's one of the best pieces of literature ever written! But it doesn't get really good until the fourth book, God Emperor of Dune. The first ones are really almost just a prelude, the last three are goddamn excellent!

lol, well, you've convinced. I'm reading the famous "Lensman" series by E.E. "Doc" Smith right now, I'll look up "Dune" if I ever finish. =)

Well, my last comment on this thread I noted I was actually starting to like lordstormdragon once I got a glimpse of the person behind the words. I also noted to self I wasn't going to post anymore comments (I'm missing enough sleep as it is) but.......... This I've got to know. Do all 3D art nut cases, self included, read the sci-fi classics. I've done all the Douglas Adam's Hitch Hiker series, all the Dunes, all of Azimnoth (sp?) Harry Seldon and Robot series', and dang of I didn't run across 10 old paperback Heinleins I had read years ago I my attic and I'm going to read them again (my favorite author), EE Smith "Lensman" series, Greg Bear, etc If I had to pick one best of every sci-fi I' read it is Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress"

I've read nearly every book Heinlein ever wrote before "The Cat Who Walks Through Walls". My favorites are "Starship Troopers", "The Puppet Masters", and "Starman Jones". "Have Space Suit Will Travel" was alright. I'm reading the "Lensman" series straight through right now for the first time. I've read a quantity of Azimov's books. My absolute all time favorite book by him is "Azimov's Mysteries". They are so clever and scientifically based. "I, Robot" was pretty interesting as well, and I've read "Fantastic Voyage" a long time ago. I've read every single one of Douglas Adams' "Hitchiker" series. The first one's got to be the best. Favorite of all time? Hmm... ever read "The Icarus Hunt" by Timothy Zahn? I love it. My favorite's got to be either that or "Manta's Gift" by the same author. Probably "Manta's Gift": it's even more original. Never read "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", another one to add to my list of required reading. =)

I've read all of Asimov's ficiton works, and only a few Heinlein books... "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" is STILL one of the best books ever...! But if you've never seen 'em, give Stephen R. Donaldson's "Gap Cycle" a shot. First, "The Real Story - The Gap into Conflict". They are some of the best sci-fi out there, and definitely the most hardcore and "adult" of any sci-fi on the planet! And "Xenogenesis" by Octavia Butler is also excellent...

I like some SF, Nightfall by Asimov is one of my favourites. I've read quite a lot of varied SF, Roger Zelazny, Robert Holdstock.. years ago now so I forget. Then drifted into Science fantasy like Tad Williams, Katharine Kerr, Jenny Jones - not even sure why such books get tagged with 'science'. Nowadays I only read software manuals and psychology books... hmm, they sometimes seem to cross over in similarity ;)

What happened now we are in LSD's book club. Well I still like Tolkein one of the best things he writes about in his books is......food. I don't find that littel tactile thing in other books too often. I also like other fantasy like David Eddings and Gene Wolf's works. Sci Fi I have been particular to Arthur C. Clarks stuff. Rendezvous with Rama and Childhoods end were my favorites of his. Harry harrison for doing serious things like Make Room and on the other side doing the Stainless steel Rat. Latley I have been into other writing Hemmingway's A Farwell to Arms. A great read. Anyways we now have oficially changed the tread to book corner which is cool by me.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

I liked "The Door Into Summer" Heinlien. "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" was also very good. "The Day After Tomorrow" is one of my favourites. A.E.Van Vogt's "The House That Stood Still", and Lloyd Biggle Jr's "Monument" are just excellent. Azimov's "Caves of Steel" & "The Naked Sun" and all the Foundation books... There just isn't enough room to list all my favoiurites!

Measure your mind's height
by the shade it casts.
Robert Browning (Paracelsus)

Fran's Freestuff

http://franontheedge.blogspot.com/

http://www.FranOnTheEdge.com

yeah! I couldn't think of Azimov's books that Harry Seldon was the focus. You got it. It's the "Foundation" trilogy (which was actually four books because he finished the series off with a prequel) thank you FranOneTheEdge for the correct spelling of Azimov and jogging my memory.

Actually, is Azimov spelled with a "z" or an "s"? Anyhow, David Eddings isn't bad. It's just that, if he's the one I'm thinking of, all of his books kind of run together. I'm not sure that I like how his main character always seems so clearly superior to all of his enemies. There's no real tension there, because we know that the protagonist can't die because he's just, well, so invulnerable. Some of his stories are interesting, though. I liked "The Redemption of Althalus". Don't forget Alan Dean Foster with such greats as "Aliens", "Nor Crystal Tears", and "Sentenced to Prism". "Nor Crystal Tears" is, I think, the best first contact sci-fi novel I have ever read. Andre Norton wasn't bad with "Catseye". Kind of an interesting book, but not great.

A.E.Van Vogt Voyage of the Space Beagle great concept. the reading is sort of dated which makes it more interesting. There is deep space travel between stars without computers. Everything is atomic this and atomic that.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Sounds rather like "When Worlds Collide" by an author whose name escapes me at the moment. It's so old, that when they travel through space they still thought that they would be terribly disoriented in zero gee, their hearts not working properly, not being able to tell up from down, etc. Kind of fun to read what they used to think space travel would be like. Oh, yes, and their ship does have an atomic reactor. I can see six-year-olds of generations future watching Star Trek reruns, and laughing at our fusion reactors. Why, we couldn't even think of plasma power. Shame on us. =)

Oh the David Eddings ones I liked (The Belgariad series) has a young boy - Garion - as the main protagonist and he definitely wasn't superior to his enemies in fact he was just the opposite. I've not heard of "The Redemption of Althalus" though. The Alan Dean Foster ones I prefered were the stories about Flinx - "The Tar Aim Krang", "Orphan Star", "Bloodhype", "The End Of The Matter". I wish there had been more of those. Oh yes, I liked "Catseye" too. And a few others of his, but not all of them. Oh and Issac's second name IS spelled "ASIMOV". Yet I found it on the net under the z spelling. Then there's Gordon R Dickson's Dorsai series.

Measure your mind's height
by the shade it casts.
Robert Browning (Paracelsus)

Fran's Freestuff

http://franontheedge.blogspot.com/

http://www.FranOnTheEdge.com