On behalf of the RPublishing division of Bondware, I'd like to apologize to the customers and contributing merchants affected by the recent problems discovered with the Renda model. Some of the issues uncovered have put RPublishing in potential violation of the Renderosity Marketplace policies with regard to copyright and respect for the intellectual property of other companies. I am working with the RPublishing group to make sure we do the right thing for all parties affected. See details below: As you may know, RPublishing contracted out the mesh creation, morphing, and rigging for this model with the understanding that all work would be original. Unfortunately, as we learned later, this was not the case. While the Renda mesh is 100% original, there have been issues identified surrounding the morphs and joint parameters. Regardless, RPublishing should have been more diligent in verifying the originality of the work submitted and takes full responsibility for the issues that have surfaced. I have spoken with Dan Farr at DAZ this morning outlining the situation and mutually exploring the best approach and outcome for DAZ, RPublishing, and all buyers of Renda products. He has been great to work with given the circumstances. He offered a possible solution that would involve encoding the Victoria 3 figure into the product, thereby requiring that a person have V3 to use the product. This would allow the continued marketing of Renda and related products while protecting DAZ's rights. This seems to be the best approach at this point and the RPublishing group is preparing an update to the Renda packages which does that. This update should be available later today. For buyers who need the V3 product, it can be obtained at the link below: http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1098&cat=8 Obviously, this makes Renda a different product so the Renderosity MP will refund purchases for anyone that does not want the product in the new configuration. All previous buyers will be emailed and informed of this option. Tim Choate President Bondware Inc

Kreations By Khrys

Hopefully, a positive outcome to a very sticky solution. Tim, this is said with all due respect. The threads that pertained to this product also revealed that the product was knowingly released with QA issues. I hope that Renderosity takes it to heart that this has shaken consumer confidence a bit. I respectfully ask that you also consider and advise us of solutions that address this issue as well.

Glad it's come to a reasonable solution for both parties. I will be removing Renda from my machine as she is tainted goods and I won't mess with her. It might be a good idea to have your marketplace staff listen to merchants in the future. Much of this (meaning the fiasco over QA) could have been atleast avoided had the inital release been postponed as so many suggested.

Message edited on: 06/29/2005 14:36

I closed my eyes and saw heaven, I opened them and the face before me was heaven on earth

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Too little, too late.

Not that I needed another female figure (human figure for that matter), but I do like to support new products (thus I did get Max). I wonder if this does prove that currently Poser really has no need for another generic female figure that does not introduce something new. Apollo does approach things differently thus making it a viable product. Maybe RPublishing could fund something new, instead of a rehash of an older figure. (DAZ has said they are working on a new Vicky.) I think I will be passing on this figure.

ratscloset
aka John

RTF encoding spells the death of a product. its like selling a Ford, but with the stipulation that you have to own a Chevy or it wont start. as someone who signed on to this project in good faith but -- through QC issues, this copyright fiasco and the impending crippled Renda market due to the RTF encoding -- has now wasted their time entirely, all i would like to know is if Renderosity intends to compensate those 10 merchants who it approached to sign on to this project in April. we are left with failed products that would have sold exponentially more had the release went smoothly, honestly and professionally, and tainted reputations for having unwittingly endorsed a faulty and infringing product. this 'very exciting opportunity with RPublishing (Bondware)' has been an ordeal from start to abrupt finish, and has left us with nothing but a bad taste in our mouths.

It's good to hear that this incident has come to an end and that now there is an official position regarding Renda. But putting this aside I want to ask, what could be the purpose of continue selling a figure which is just like V3 and requires her to work? It doesn't make much sense since Renda has nothing new to give. The best move honestly, is pull Renda of the MP and rework her to make her a interesting product, instead a dead from start figure.

Ditto on the listen next time.A product was released with known problems..(meaning before you found out about the violation).Bad form.

"You and your f**kin ankle fetish.

NO ANKLE PORN FOR YOU!"- Dodger

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http://www.silverelf.com

I say Pull Renda, start fresh and make her what you originally intended RENDEROSITY'S FLAGSHIP FIGURE,and something to be proud of. the way it stands now she is merely an addition to V3 and V3 has enough additions IMHO. and how about the next time RPublishing sets out to make a figure that THE COMMUNITY HAS BEEN ASKING FOR,you actually listen to what the community wants and let the community in on her work in progress,like almost every other figure creator does,take in some feedback and suggestions on what is needed in a new and innovative figure,and you may be alot more successful in creating it. The3dZone

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

I would pull the item as well. It never seemed very popular and people did nothing but complain about it's poor quality anyway. If people liked her I'd say differently. Why not cut your losses and just start over? -ScottA

I have to admit, starting over is probably the best thing to do for a figure that was hoped to be a flagship figure. It may be too late for Renda, though, as it would mean going back to square one. More than likely, that would also mean using a different person or team on the figure ... it appears that those who worked on this figure may not have had previous experience in creating a whole new figure. It almost appears as if toward the end he/she/they realized that more was bitten off than one could chew.

Here, here...3dZone! Excellent advice, bar none! :)

I agree with The3dZone. a new addon is not needed.

I am glad that RO and Daz was able to come to an agreement on this but... however... for me, I will more than likely be removing her from my computer. I don't want anything to do with "damaged goods". Now, if RO creates another ORIGINAL (and for real this time) figure, I'd be more than happy to help support it. :) And yes, RO really does need to listen to their merchants and the community when they are told there is a problem instead of going on and passing it anyway. I've had products be held just for having a simple wording wrong in my readme file. To go ahead and pass her the way she was, I don't understand that.

It was very childish for RO to release her in such a condition and now the adult thing to do would be to just discard her and start over with an ORIGINAL figure. 'nuf said by me here on the subject.

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“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

In response to this whole matter I felt it may be appropriate to say something at this point. In the last month I have gone from being in an utter state of excitement to get to work on a new female figure, to an indescribably shitty position to watch this whole deal unfold the way it has. I was very proud of the work I did for Renda. Albeit my distaste for her mapping, I did the best possibly job I could with the time I had. I made a report concerning several issues for Renda, but none contained information regarding morph dials, or channels, or otherwise suspect craftsmanship in the figure itself. And it shouldnt have. It was not the task I was appointed to do, and it was not where my focus was. As for any suggestion that "we" initial content developers may have known about any discrepancies beforehand, you couldn't be more off the mark. Its absolutely absurd to make a suggestion. Period! Everyone of the content providers signed a legal NDA and with the fullest of confidence that what we were being asked to provide was indeed for solid and a 100% original figure. Once again, I am proud of the work I DID, and would expect every other merchant who made content for her or any other figure to be just as deligent. Thank you for your time and consideration. Chris~

I believe that all of the inital content creators did a splendid job on Renda's content,and most of that inital content did not require her to be in full working order. I know that I work on plenty of textures where the model is still in the rigging stage,all that's required is a finished map to do that job. and I'm not a morph maker,but I would assume that all that BH needed for his add on would be the object itself,so ofcoarse the modeling would have to be final. so I see no reason that any of you should have questioned her rigging,maybe you didn't even know that it was complete yet.you were not asked to be beta testers. correct me if I'm wrong. -The3dZone

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

Well at least the base V3 is free for the RTE encoding, but still. Who will want to buy from RPublishing? And it still doesn't address the fact that she came out without proper testing.

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sigh well i have to agree with a few people here on so many things.. First and foremost. I would say pull her.. end of story.. she is tainted now.. why should we pay so much money for an "original" character but we have to have V3 .. wasn't the point of this to have a 100% original character one that is NOT dependant on another ??? Seems a mute point now to fix her up and re-release her.. The content providers spent months working on items for her and now i feel so sorry for them all for putting in SOO much work on a character that turned out to be NOT what they had originally signed up for. The way she was released was horrible to say the least. We merchants are not allowed to have something in the store with even ONE problem, much less a ton of problems that were STATED to YOU, yet YOU released her KNOWING there were issues with her.. She was NOT tested correctly.. you should have signed on 11 people.. the 11th being someone who knows about character creation to look at her CLOSELY .. They only wayI would be doing anything with her.. is if she herself is free.. and her morph pack is free.. after all of this.. and even then.. ya know.. I just don't think I can bring myself to do any of that .. NOT with how this was brought out.. how she was released.. and the LACK of care Renderosity used with releasing her. and my last little bit.. to the original content providers.. my sincere apologies go out to you, and hope that renderosity works something out with you for your time and trouble.

Seems a mute point now to fix her up and re-release her.<< I agree this figure is DOA. and to blackhearted's point ,its worse its like having a brand new FREE ford and being asked to pay full retail for a chevy that requires the presence of your free ford to function.. Ohh and the term is "Moot "point ;-)

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Agree that Renda should be pulled, and the merchants who supported her compensated somehow. (How about giving them Rosity's cut of their sales for a month or three?)

Renda will never be Rosity's flagship figure now. Take Anton up on his offer. Release a truly original, all-new figure...and tell us who made her. And don't name her "Renda."

slightly off-topic... err, something seems to be messed up, for me at least. i keep getting a group of about 12 ebots sent to me every few minutes telling me that someone responded to the old thread (the one that was locked). has the names of the last dozen or so posters, and every time i delete them a couple minutes later they are resent. anyone else have something wierd like that going on? perhaps its because im the last poster before it was locked? or is the rosity ebot on the fritz?

Anton would do a super job with a completely original figure. :)

Im glad you were able to resolve this quickly and to the satisfaction of all affected parties. On the figure itself my suggestion would be to remove her completely and issue refunds as already suggested here. It is obvious ther will be no attempts to develop for her after this. Id like to express concern tho for the developers of additional content that were affected by this. In my opinion you should find way to fairly compensate them for the work performed. They went into this in good faith, and do not have to share a responsability that belongs to the publisher alone. As a footnote id like to suggest it would be in the managements best interest to take into account merchants advice, concerns and views. This has proven that, had it been so, you would have been saved a lot of embaressment and damage. We DO have a common goal, the sucess of this enterprise. Regards SkyNet

bh :-p It is just that those EBOTS.. LOVE YA hun :) heh

It would be a terrific opprotuinty for everyone if a new, unique, original looking female figure is created by Renderosity. I hope Rendo does not give up on their original concept. Steady on. Stiff upper lip. cheerio lululee

<u>wolf359</u> - "and to blackhearted's point ,its worse its like having a brand new FREE ford and being asked to pay full retail for a chevy that requires the presence of your free ford to function.."

Actually, it's more like buying a Yugo that requires a free Ferrari to function;)

Having been burned for around 40k even though I had a rock solid contract with a 50% compensation fee in the event the project failed, I can commiserate with the merchants that got tangled up in this fiasco. That being said, I just have to ask. Since Rosity and the PTB have NEVER listened to the merchants and gone ahead and done their own thing, why did you think this time would be different? I mean you had warning. Many of the merchants have said they had questions, pointed out flaws and such with the standard Shut up, we have our own agenda stock answer from the PTB. What made you think this would be any different? Additionally, while I have absolutely nothing against 3rd party characters, historically these have not done well, even with a LARGE amount of backing from heavy hitting merchants. Again I ask, why did you think this would be different? If it sounds too good to be true, typically, that is because it is. While the concept of Renda is a good one, did you really expect Rosity to pull it off? At the very least they were using YOU to market their product, counting on YOUR customers that YOU worked hard to acquire, so that their product would sell. In short, they USED you. Why didnt you get contracts? It is standard practice to get a contract in case a project fails to recover YOUR expenses. In this case, considering the source of the publishing house, I would not have done anything without ink and hard signatures and a legally binding contract. While Rosity has covered their asses and perhaps taken a loss, what is the next step for the merchants who have taken a hard hit? They have to somehow repair their relationship with their customers. Is Rosity going to gouge them yet again by refunding sales on their items now that Renda has obviously been tarnished? Most of these people spent a goodly amount of time producing products for this Greek tragedy, so is Rosity just going to smile and them and say Sorry, Tough Luck there.? Aside from damaging their reputation (yeah, I know, Rosity has a reputation to damage?) They have seriously hurt any upcoming original characters with their usual disregard to those of us in the trenches making money for them. The repercussions from this will affect merchants from all brokerages for a long time.

The repercussions from this will affect merchants from all brokerages for a long time. Maybe not all ... but this incident has definitely shed doubt on this marketplace for certain. New Poser artists may have a tough time of it now.

In short, they USED you. Why didnt you get contracts? It is standard practice to get a contract in case a project fails to recover YOUR expenses. In this case, considering the source of the publishing house, I would not have done anything without ink and hard signatures and a legally binding contract<<<<<. Pardon me but being a merchant here is not the same as being a contracted freelance artist. as a merchant in the poser market we essentially have an open invitation to create products/content for anyposer figure and any potential income from such efforts is purely speculative at best. the fact that RR approached specific individuals does not mean that there was some guarantee of income from these products.

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im not going to be held responsible for this. as a merchant, working with other peoples products in the MP, you cant realistically sit there and run every single one under the microscope before you start working on it. wed be spending 99% of our time examining, investigating and testing and 1% actually working on my products. ive learned my lesson, im not going to be on any initial launch again. ill sit back and see how things go, and if im satisfied with the products progress then ill add my support. Well, I think the apology is a good start. Also, RTF encoded figures are actually viable. Look at supermodel Vicky (both the free version and the selling version). What is really happening is that Renda is turning into a product like David -- which did just fine. Time for a deep breath, a lot of patience and a good look at the product itself and the alternatives. Sorry about the guy who was guaranteed 40K -- I hope things work out for him.

Boy! This is interesting! You can now get an RTE encoded V3 requiring the original, that has posing and morph problems! All for over $50 for the complete package! Or you can just get V3 for free (which you'd have to do anyway to decode Renda), and get her morphs for less than $20, and have a much better figure to start with. This doesn't solve the problems with Renda. All it does is stop Daz from suing the 'sity until it's eyes bleed. And the 'sity still is going to sell her? This isn't good for the customers here. This isn't good for the people who made 3rd party additions for her. And it leaves her in the MP here for the unsuspecting to get her. A lot of people come here to buy, and never get to the forums to see the problems that the product has. Pull her. Give the money back to the people who bought her. Give some compensation to the vendors who made something for her thinking she was going to be quality work supported by the 'sity. I don't know what little it'll cost the 'sity to do this, but they should for the goodwill factor alone. It can't be much on sales. And they should be getting the cash they paid on the contract to develope her back.

I agree with the others about getting rid of the Renda thing, wiping it off the books, along with the subcontractor(s). Perhaps Daz will also agree to having the Renda figure pulled once they realize nobody will buy it or use it, hence there will be no possibility of any kind of compensatory income from it.

"Additionally, while I have absolutely nothing against 3rd party characters, historically these have not done well, even with a LARGE amount of backing from heavy hitting merchants. Again I ask, why did you think this would be different?" hisminky, um, er, well, uh, DAZ figures are 3rd party figures, and, um, well, I'd like to think they did fairly well. "At the very least they were using YOU to market their product, counting on YOUR customers that YOU worked hard to acquire, so that their product would sell." Absolutely. All the posts about her dysfunctions were, ultimately, not bad things. They served a simple purpose, which was to make more people aware of her. The more posts people made, here and at different sites, the more exposure she got. THe more exposure she gets, the more "buzz" is created. It doesn't matter if the exposure is created by a bad thing or not. If the issues with her had been anything but the jcm and Eula probs, this figure might have had a rocky start, but would have gone one to do rather well. For the simple and single reason that she had a hell of a lot of people talking about her. "...what is the next step for the merchants who have taken a hard hit? They have to somehow repair their relationship with their customers. " Hardest hit I've seen is Blackhearted -- and a large chunk of that is his own fault for being vocal. He, however, will recover reputation wise fairly easily from his association with Renda. He does good work. More of it will do just fine. The RTE coding of the figure is an error to do. Pull her, and then do the rigging properly. For cryin out loud, Clint's on the team -- and while he may not be the greatest thing since bread mold, he's got the ability to rig her himself if he would put himself to the task. Take the time to do her properly -- if that's 3 weks, fine, if its 3 years, just as fine. At this point, all you have to do is fix the damned cr2. Without opening V3 to do so. So do it. oh, and mahna mahna.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

This isn't happening right. Clint is supposed to announce his resignation, along with some other high up mods, then Tim is supposed to announce his resignation, then Clint is supposed to say okay, if Tim resigns he'll come back. Then Clint is supposed to resign anyway. Then merchants are supposed to start pulling their stores in droves. THen DAZ is supposed to buy the site for 20 grand. Then two months later Tim is supposed to come backand say he's sorry, and it was all because he was on drugs. THAT's how this is supposed to happen. Jesus. Do you guys always have to be pointed at PoserPros to know how to get things right?

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

Lol @ Dodger. Well, it is 3 months early for the usual upheaval, give it time. :)

...... Kendra

I can honestly say that when Renda was initially released I was surprised at how fast she was done, learning about her creation back in April I was VERY surprised to hear that she was released only two months later. As a person who has worked on a completely ORIGINAL figure, I can tell you that a two month development time for anyones first go of it is unheard of and certainly is an omen for disaster. Victoria and Michael by DAZ (all versions) took months and months worth of work by a nice sized staff. Dina V by DSI took a little over nine to twelve months to complete from scratch. Max by Anton has taken several years of development and work by Anton ALONE to make that figure what it is today. Natalia by Dcort took a good while before she was released, dont know the actual time limit, but knowing Dan and the perfectionist that he can be from working on Dina, I am sure it took a good while for her figure before release as well. I know of another figure that will be coming out in the near future that has been in development for almost a year now My point is, there is absolutely no way that a two month turn around for a figure is sufficient to completely test it, work out the bugs, assign Joint Parameters without it exploding in your face Hence the reason why I didnt buy Renda upon her release and for sure wont be now. What I have seen of her release is what seems to be the standard practices of many companies today. Release the product in less than perfect format, capitalize on it at the expense of your customers and slowly work on it and release updates (Poser 5 for example). This sort of thinking is what is going to kill this Community and any business for the merchants in it. Frustrating your customers and pushing out crap product is NOT A GOOD THING!! Now many of the merchants here and elsewhere are feeling like theyve been screwed and for all intents and purposes they have been. They invested their time and effort in the hopes of a return that just wont come. And that sour taste is going to be there when others come along with a new figure and looking to get support for it and because of that, they will suffer for the idiocy that has occurred here. My suggestion to you, remove Renda. Compensate the merchants who have worked on the project and created product for an unusable character. Pay them not as brokers but as work for hire employees for their time and hard work and THEN get out of the publishing business, because you obviously have very little regard for your customer base by selling her as screwed up as she was and that is going to affect any future products, sales or support towards any other product that you had in mind in short, you killed your publishing business. Stick to running a website/brokerage store while you may not do that perfectly, you arent blatantly taking money from your customers and members at such a personal risk to yourself by selling unfinished product that was created in bad faith. My next suggestion would be that you listen to your staff and the merchants, because if you had, you wouldve avoided a good portion of your current headache and probably wouldve been more successful. Nuff said by me. Jack

"This isn't happening right. Clint is supposed to announce his resignation, along with some other high up mods, then Tim is supposed to announce his resignation, then Clint is supposed to say okay, if Tim resigns he'll come back. Then Clint is supposed to resign anyway. Then merchants are supposed to start pulling their stores in droves. THen DAZ is supposed to buy the site for 20 grand. Then two months later Tim is supposed to come backand say he's sorry, and it was all because he was on drugs. THAT's how this is supposed to happen. Jesus. Do you guys always have to be pointed at PoserPros to know how to get things right? " Larry The Cable Guy Voice Now thats funny,...I don't care who ya are.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Interesting. Has the zeal for marketing, making the quick buck, cashing in on today's force-fed, Hot Item undermined the diligence on the part of the Marketplace product approvers?

I haven't waded in on any of the various threads going on at the moment about Renda, but I for one will be deleting her from my hardrive. Lord knows she is definitely damaged goods and no amount of backpeddling is going to change that. The concept was good...the realization was not so good, IMHO :-( I must admit I was never all that impressed with her from the beginning....she's a worse fiasco than the infamous Judy! But at least Judy came with the content...you didn't have to pay beaucoup bucks for her. I know...I am a itty bitty fish in a great big pond...but we itty bitty's have opinions, too :-)

someone to actually use renda with all her faults and make some scene with her being "tainted goods" in some dark alleyway somewhere trying to score a trick with the Mike character, or even with her dumped in the trashbin or somesuch.... just for the laugh!... :+P cheers Sean

When will people learn? In the past few months, we've had copyright problems with products from 3D Commune, PoserPros, and now Renderosity. Do you want to keep getting a customer's money? Get it right the first time.

How do you know it was Dodger that posted that? Could have been any of us. Me, for instance. "As a person who has worked on a completely ORIGINAL figure, I can tell you that a two month development time for anyones first go of it is unheard of and certainly is an omen for disaster." Not necessarily, JDK. We could do it. THe mesh would take about a month to finalise, and then the morph set and some starter clothing. Half the mesh is the UVMapping. It's all doable. But it would have to be done by people who know what they are doing and actually develop content hardcore, not people who sell it for others and farm it out to anyone who comes along.

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

Why is Renda still in the store being sold to unsuspecting people? Why has the read-me not changed indicating you will now need RTE-ENcoding. Not good at all >:(.

Oh, the next time you all do this...please don't create an online person with the models name for the sole use of promoting her/him...That is lamest thing I've seen in a long time. Thank God I have good eyes(saw immediately she was severely deformed)...at least good enough not to be sucked into this debacle.

Message edited on: 06/29/2005 20:05

I've read this announcement a couple of times, and come back to this thread several times, and all I can do is shake my head and sigh. I have lots I could say, but I think it'd be mostly pointless, and many others in this thread have already expressed my own sentiments about testing prior to release and actually listening to the feedback of your merchants. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

"Not necessarily, JDK. We could do it. THe mesh would take about a month to finalise, and then the morph set and some starter clothing. Half the mesh is the UVMapping. It's all doable. But it would have to be done by people who know what they are doing and actually develop content hardcore, not people who sell it for others and farm it out to anyone who comes along." Well.....You SOUND an aweful lot like Dodger. :-)

All of this mess underscores what people forget about this entire marketplace (Renderosity, Poserpros, etc.)...that many of these sites are owned and run by people who aren't trained to be professional business operators. Many of them have accidentally stumbled into this relatively young source of revenue and they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. It's a home-based hobby gone wild. I especially felt this during the whole Poserpros fiasco. Any one posting from the beleaguered Mehndi confirmed how unprofessional and amateurish she was in handling the unfortunate affair. Therefore, we should always exercise an attitude of "buyer beware" when dealing with anything having to do with the Poser aftermarket. Renderosity isn't operated by Harvard Business School geniuses, despite their fancy online storefront and pretty masthead. But, that said, it IS part of the charm of this whole Poser aftermarket that it's run by reg'lar folks, so you have to take the good with the bad. For every Renderosity Renda blunder (or even the 3D Commune "Sarah" hiccup, etc.) there's a PhilC & Kamilche with their Wardrobe Wizard success. I say that we quit pontificating and being indignant, slap Renda and the 'osity on the wrists for bad behavior, consider the deed done and keep stumbling forward. Life's too short. -jjsemp

they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. You don't need a degree to realize that it's just plain good business practice to release a quality product, or to make sure things work right before you sell them. >> For every Renderosity Renda blunder (or even the 3D Commune "Sarah" hiccup, etc.) there's a PhilC & Kamilche with their Wardrobe Wizard success. True, very true, which is why I feel this won't affect all Poser merchants. It may however make it harder for new merchants to break into the market. Products will have to stand out more to be recognized. And that means creating content that is original and innovative, instead of more of the same.

You don't need a degree to realize that it's just plain good business practice to release a quality product, or to make sure things work right before you sell them.<< No, but it helps. A little education in HOW to run a business properly is a good thing - not always necessary, but good. I think education and training are highly undervalued in today's push button society. But I hold out hope that it will make a strong comeback as things continue to deteriorate. Believe it or not, it really DOES make a difference. -jjsemp

Apologies ... I do realize that you learn a lot about running a business in school (didn't mean to dis the need for a degree); however in this instance a common-sense decision was the way to go. 8-)

" All of this mess underscores what people forget about this entire marketplace (Renderosity, Poserpros, etc.)...that many of these sites are owned and run by people who aren't trained to be professional business operators. Many of them have accidentally stumbled into this relatively young source of revenue and they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. It's a home-based hobby gone wild. I especially felt this during the whole Poserpros fiasco. Any one posting from the beleaguered Mehndi confirmed how unprofessional and amateurish she was in handling the unfortunate affair."

Totally true.

Message edited on: 06/29/2005 20:45

...which is why I feel this won't affect all Poser merchants Going a step further, I don't feel it will affect much of anything, least of all Marketplace sales. It may sound obnoxious of me, but I bet the vast majority of poeple who purchase models, textures, whatever, here don't really care one way or other, so long as they have that receipt showing where they bought it, in good faith. Proof there's someone to point the finger at, if need be. Then again, I bet alot aren't even concerned about that.

"Products will have to stand out more to be recognized. And that means creatng content that is original and innovative, instead of more of the same." Now if THAT is the result of this nasty episode I'll be very happy. A store with fewer items, but all of them high quality and non-redundant, I'd call that a definite improvement.

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Yup, same here. It's something whose time has come, I think, eh?

they haven't got any education in how to properly run a business or deal with customers. The exception to that is the Renderosity is RUN by a COMPANY and owned by a successful corporate business man who owns a company outside of this website and retains a fulltime attorney. He is NOT inexperienced to the ways of business or conducting business, he is very intelligent and skilled. So that excuse, if it could or should be one, doesn't apply here. If you are going to run a website that sells product to the public, home-based hobby or not, it is STILL a business and should be ran and maintained as such. Inaction or ignorance isn't an excuse to sell bad product, harm the reputation of others working on that product, or take money from customers for half finished product. And if you think it is okay to do that, then you deserve to be treated like sheep and fleeced. Jack

XFX3D >>"Not necessarily, JDK. We could do it. THe mesh would take about a month to finalise, and then the morph set and some starter clothing. Half the mesh is the UVMapping. It's all doable. But it would have to be done by people who know what they are doing and actually develop content hardcore, not people who sell it for others and farm it out to anyone who comes along." If you say so, I guess we will see in the near future won't we? ScottA >>Well.....You SOUND an aweful lot like Dodger. :-) I agree and if so, then my above comment should hold some bearing... Jack

0_0 Jack yer scarin me

Artist Page ~ Store ~ OpenMindDesign (website) ~ OpenMindGallery (website)

There are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on every beach in the world!

I just wanted to say that everyone who had the chance to work with Clint, like I did, is 100% sure that he and Renderosity have nothing to do with the infringement. Their only fault was to trust a person (or a team of persons) who obviously did not deserve their trust. I just wanted to say this publicly because I think that a person like Clint deserves it. Orio P.S. I would like that the identities of the infringers are made public, I think it would be fair to everyone.

Orio, I agree that Clint and the 'sity didn't intentionally release a product that has such obvious copyright problems. They did release and continue to sell a new figure with inherent problems that as far as know haven't been fixed. Problems they knew about before it's release. Ultimate responsibility for her release and sale go to the owners of Bondware. The 'sity and RPublishing are divisions of Bondware. There were threads pointing out the problems with Renda before the copyright issue became apparent. I'm glad the 'sity has decided to offer a full refund to those who bought Renda. It's nice of Tim to offer an apology. However, continuing to sell a flawed figure on top of the copyright issues raises issues here. Quality control on the 'sity's own figure seems to be lacking, and that can reflect on every other product in the store. Frankly, I think it'd be a bad choice to spend money an an encoded figure that has known problems. I think it's bad business sense not to just refund the money to everyone and pull the figure. BTW, there is no notice in the Product Showcase thread announcing Renda about it being RTE Encoded. Renda's product page doesn't mention it. I know there hasn't been enough time to fix the page, but there should be something posted by the 'sity in the PS thread. Also, I think the product should be at least temporarally pulled until the new RTE version is available, and the product page is updated to reflect this. There are people who don't read the forums who do buy here, and they don't know they're purchasing a product with known problems.

Actually just to clearify something Jack said, Apollo took 6 months to do. I started it late October 2003, I put it down and moved, relaxed for a year etc. I kept track and it added up to about 6 months for me. 1/2 the time was in test,experiments and tweaks. Not that that matters or is relevant. Just a factoid.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

The exception to that is the Renderosity is RUN by a COMPANY and owned by a successful corporate business man who owns a company outside of this website and retains a fulltime attorney.<< Just because an entity calls itself a "company" doesn't mean that the many people who work there know what they are doing. As for the owner (I assume you mean of Bondware), I doubt that he's actively involved in every aspect of the day-to-day operations of Renderosity. >>He is NOT inexperienced to the ways of business or conducting business, he is very intelligent and skilled. So that excuse, if it could or should be one, doesn't apply here.<< If you read my post, I never indicated that inexperience was an "excuse." Just something for us buyers to be wary of. >>If you are going to run a website that sells product to the public, home-based hobby or not, it is STILL a business and should be ran and maintained as such.<< I never said otherwise. >>Inaction or ignorance isn't an excuse to sell bad product, harm the reputation of others working on that product, or take money from customers for half finished product.<< I never said otherwise. >>And if you think it is okay to do that, then you deserve to be treated like sheep and fleeced.<< I never said...oh, never mind. You seem to be having too much fun for me to stop you. But I will admit that I don't think that these periodic upheavals in the world of Poserdom are the "major global disasters" that some people take them as being. I seem to recall SOME people in this forum getting all worked up about Poser 5 upon its release. It was, as I recall, the end of the world, a blasphemy against nature, and the root of all evil and representative of the dark side of the Force. Now, today, many people are CLINGING to their copies of Poser 5, deathly afraid of abandoning them in favor of Poser 6. You really DO have to keep things in perspective and let things work themselves out, which is all I AM saying. -jjsemp

Tis a Very sad thing when this Happens... Maybe more websites should encourage pre-finished Pics that show a Characters Building thru the different stages of its Creation...

"Maybe more websites should encourage pre-finished Pics that show a Characters Building thru the different stages of its Creation... " That would blow any possibility of a big, hyped release and allow competitors to plan counter-moves. But then, could that be any worse than this scenario? When I first saw Renda I thought she was flawed. And expensive. I didn't realise the was a flawed expensive copy of V3. And now she's a flawed expensive copy of V3 with a tarnished reputation. That's not an ideal position. I think her short life is over, same goes for any add-ons for her.

Actually just to clearify something Jack said, Apollo >>took 6 months to do. >>I started it late October 2003, I put it down and moved, >>relaxed for a year etc. I kept track and it added up to >>about 6 months for me. 1/2 the time was in >>test,experiments and tweaks. >>Not that that matters or is relevant. Just a factoid. Hey Anton, I know that between your old job and working at DAZ that you were kept quite busy to really work on Apollo as much as you would've like too. Please understand, that I wasn't speaking ill of your abilities, because I wasn't. I was just trying to point out that there is a lot of work that goes into making a figure which you've verified in regard to your own figure... it just isn't a two month process from start to finish... there is a lot of work involved. Jack

"RTF encoding spells the death of a product." (Blackhearted).

Speaking as a pure consumer, not a producer, of marketplace items, I have to say: I don't agree with this statement. For example: Dodger's Aeon figures are all RTEncoded, but I have been more than happy to pay the prices to acquire them, because they add functionality beyond what I already own. They increase the usefulness of the Unimesh figures they are based on.

From everything I have seen, this is not true of Renda - Renda appears to be nothing more than a V3 clone, and I haven't seen anything that Renda can do better than V3, so I have no interest in paying for Renda, whether she's RTEncoded or not. While some segment of the potential market might indeed be frightened off by RTEncoding, I'm skeptical that this potential segment is larger than the potential market segment that avoids Renda simply because there's nothing that Renda does that can't also be done with V3 or other figures we already own, for free in many cases. In other words, forget the RTEncoding: What do I actually gain by purchasing Renda?

Jack, hehe I know. hehe. I got what you meant. Figures are alot of work. I have seen too may rip offs, copies and skinjobs over the years. I have often thought of doing a tutorial on how people rip off figures so everyone knows what to look for. Problem is that the people who cheat think they are being clever and don't realize how easy it is to see what they did andhow they did it. This renda issue is so very very very important. It establishes copyright beyond mesh. It represents that even when using an original mesh, copyright into design can be violated. There are very few who know all the subtlies of figure making. To people who aren't into modelling, rigging, and 3d on a daily basis, all figures tend to look alike. I am always sympathetic to inncoent people dragged down by those who have misled them. And I have always been sympathetic to people who have been ripped off. I'll be honest in that I am very worried that now that Apollo is released, and after 7 years of the same figure design, I am about to be ripped off in the next generation of figures. I would like to think it isn't going to happen, and time will tell if the their next generation becomes more Maximus than Millenium. I certainly remember Eve. She was an original concept. Now we use that concept every day in our figures. I am sorry but I still see no difference between someone reverse-engineering V3 and someone reverse engineering Poser. I don't think either one is right. Or what then can be justified in the name of business and making $$$. I have often wondered if we were manipulated years ago regarding the P5 Eula at PoserPros. I feel it might have done it to for unrestricted access to the file formats. Funny word "Eula" is. Original mesh or original code, a skin job is a skin job. Design is a hard thing to protect. Like religion, people seem to pick and choose what rules apply to them oppose to others.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Jack D. Kammerer: Who says that there is too much work? It doesn't take long at all. Take the V3 Mesh into MAYA or 3DS MAX. Start modeling your character over it's mesh with a little difference, but following its verts. Then group it over V3's groups. Then take V3's *.cr2 and use on it. How hard can it be? If it takes more than 2 days you must never have even tried to model it at the first place. Because it is very simple. Try it and you will see. :). Now I never said a word about this entire issue. But I will like to say it now. Clint or any Admin will never violate copyrights. I am very sure that they never new about the copyrigth issues. How ever they were wron about releasing this product with know problems and the rush. However, as far as I know Clint, I don not think that neither Clint or the other admins were the people who decided on it's release date. I think there was a higher power telling them to release it. Anyways, I just wanted to tell what I think. Best regards, Umut B. Aydin

jjsemp, Forgive me, I wasn't directing my post and comments towards you in particular, I was merely replying collectively in regard to some of the Community's attitude around that particular subject. Many times now (situation with Mehndi immediately comes to mind, as well as, this one does) where some of the members try to defend the owners of websites such as this one by saying things like: "Well they aren't professional business people, so cut them some slack... etc." What I was trying to do was state my opinion in regard to comments like those, because I seriously believe that once the owners of a website decide to conduct "business" where money is exchanged for product or work... then they should be considered as a business and if those individuals have a lack of regard for their customers or don't know how to run a business, then they really shouldn't be IN business. Sure it is fine to excuse some mistakes made, but there are some mistakes that should be intolerable and in instances like this one or the one involving Mehndi, well, damn those should be pretty hard to overlook or forgive and forget. Now, I don't know how it is for anyone else here, but I am lucky to have what little money I happen to have and darn lucky if I have a little extra to spend now and then. My money is important to me and if I am going to spend that money on something, I darn sure want to be assured that it is worth that money I spent... and if it isn't, I am going to question why it isn't, not make excuses for the individuals who sold that crap to me. No offense, but I have to wonder as a customer here (which I am, as many of the merchants here can attest too) if Renda could be passed and put into the Online Store with the glaring flaws that she had and she was supposed to be a name brand, flagship product for the company and individuals who own this website... well, god, just what sort of real testing is being done here in the online store for customer quality assurance in products that aren't directly related to the reputation of the owners here? And if Im off base then my next question would be... WHY wasn't Renda held to the same standards of quality as opposed to any other product that goes into the online store? Maybe it's just me and the fact that I consider myself lucky to have what little money I do have to spend and the fact that I can't spend it frivolously, means that it is going to bother me when I've felt that that money has been wasted. /shrug To forgive I can do, sure, but to forget would be to give up an experience... one that I really wouldn't care to go through or relive again if I can help it. Jack

"well, god, just what sort of real testing is being done here in the online store for customer quality assurance in products that aren't directly related to the reputation of the owners here?"

They check everything from vert 1 to vert 11000. Trust me, I am a merchant here. If they did the same testing which they do to our products, RENDA would have never been released. I just wanted to inform you, nothing else.

Best regards,
Umut B. Aydin ---Edited for spelling mistakes---

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 04:39

I agree Anton and I even remember you stating those same concerns to me many years ago when you first told me that you were working on Apollo. :o) As for manipulated... I think that is a concern and a topic that will probably need some attention in the near future and in a thread of its own. I certainly think that there needs to be some way in which to educate the Community for things in which to look for. Not just for model makers, but also for people who are interested in purchasing products to avoid becoming innocent victims. In just this year alone, with my very limited activity in the Poser Community, I can think of five instances where customers have been screwed because of situations like this one, because they've (the products) made it past store testers and sold... so, yes, something definately needs to be done to prevent this from continuing to happen. Jack

If they did the same testing which they do to our >>products, RENDA would have never been released. I just >>wanted to inform you, nothing else. Understood :o) So the next thing people and the other merchants here should be asking is why wasn't she held to the same standards of testing?? Jack

I haven't experimented her yet, so I don't know anything, pnglib is killing me!. Anyway, one time there, one time here, one time elsewhere and so on......

Stupidity also evolves!

"It establishes copyright beyond mesh. It represents that even when using an original mesh, copyright into design can be violated." Hmm, DAZ sells Victoria2/P4 and Stephanie/P4, very different and all original meshes but both morphed into Posettes exact body shape and using her (Or ate least VERY similar) JPs to make them able to wear Posettes clothes. Sooooo, isnt DAZ by selling these meshes violating E-frontiers copyright the same way that Renda violated DAZ copyright ? (Even though I dont doubt that none of the DAZ modellers took any shortcut by creating the P4 versions) Just curious, but IS there a legal way at all to design a (new) mesh that can wear V3s clothing ? stahlratte

It's not quite the same. DAZ (or the company they used to be part of) created the P4 figures, and I believe they still own the rights. So they can rip off their own work all their want. :)

I think the only way to design a new mesh that can wear V3's clothing is to get DAZ's permission and/or RTEncode the mesh.

I think Renda will not recover from this, and sadly has hit the 10 merchants who supported the new figure quite badly. I agree with others that Renda should be consigned to the bin and a new figure created, otherwise i don't think anyone is going to take any other Rosity figures seriously, I know i wont buy into any Rosity figures without seeing public reaction in future, unless remove renda.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

"Just curious, but IS there a legal way at all to design a (new) mesh that can wear V3s clothing" You know I think there is... and it won't violate anyones copyright as that no V3 joints or topography would be required for it to work. Would be as harmless as Dynamics and clothing convertors. I need to do some experiments.. If it works I'll try to incorporate it into Venus.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

(This man never ceases to amaze me! LOL)

Tim, your statement was right and proper. Thank you for being upfront. My concerns about the model itself are something outside this thread, therefore, no other comment.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

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So out of curiousity I just looked Renda up in the Marketplace. Why isn't there any sort of acknowledgement that you need Victoria 3 to make Renda work? Why does the ad copy for Renda STILL say '100% NEW' when that's a load? Why can you still buy her without being informed that she is encoded? That's just insulting to the consumer.

"So the next thing people and the other merchants here should be asking is why wasn't she held to the same standards of testing??"

Actually, considering some of the problems I've found in some of my purchases from Renderosity over the past year - IMO they HAVE held Renda to the same standards of testing. lol Standards don't seem to be very high here but I've known that for years.

The testers here can't even seem to catch basic installation errors let alone something more serious. And now it seems the store no longer handles your complaints, they pass you on to the merchant and 50% of the time the merchant never even gets back to you. Nice customer service guys, love that in a merchant and store ;)

I guess because they are a Poser Gawd in the Top 20 they don't have to be polite to their customers. Will be the first and last time this merchant gets almost $20 for a hair figure from me.

I guess we really did need Pengy's rating system, huh?

"I guess we really did need Pengy's rating system, huh?" Deecey do you think? lol Emailed the merchant on 6/8/05 and still haven't heard back from them and the file still hasn't been updated...guess I'm going to have to get vocal publicly ;) A customer should NOT have to create folders and move geometry around to get a product to work properly. At the very least - Renderosity should be able to sell a product that installs properly without any frigging error messages.

My feeling on that problem is this ... Renderosity takes 50% of a merchant's sales to just host the file? Hmmm ... that seems a bit excessive to me. For the same 50%, DAZ provides the tech support. But then, they also make sure that the files work before they put them in the store. But at Renderosity, we see an awful lot of bandwidth pushing through the system. And basically, what that means is that the popular items are paying for the bandwidth that is used up by having to dish out thumbnails and promo images for the items that don't sell a lot. To me, the following makes GOOD, SOUND business sense. Start focusing on quality instead of quantity. Phase out the items that are below a certain standard, and reject them if they don't meet an acceptable level. When you do, your bandwidth costs and testing costs start going down, and the quality of the items in your store goes up. And so will the sales. A store with 3000 quality items will sell more, and take less expense to run, than a store with the same 3000 quality items and 122,000 other items that only sell a maximum of ten. The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images. Aside from that, having to wade through the extra 122,000 thumbnails make the 3,000 quality ones MUCH harder to find. And I didn't even go to business school. ;-D

At least now we have a reliable benchmark of 6 months to create an original figure. I was thinking it would take even longer, but 6 months sounds o.k. So we can be on alert in the unlikely event that somebody will make the mistake of saying they "created" theirs in only two months. The way I see it, one of these dubious figures has come out every 9 to 12 months, for the last few years. Somebody with an eagle eye spots the rip-off. Then there are apologies all around, the website in question gets taken over or modified or shut down, and people go back to their routines. Once the heat has died down a little, the next dubious figure comes out. It would also be a good idea to work something out with Daz so the Renda thing can be pulled. Having that albatross around their neck is just going to make things uncomfortable, even if it serves a good purpose, to continually remind everyone not to take shortcuts like that.

I think once again rosity is doing the halfassed thing. They could make a new Cr2 and be in the clear. I dunno about you guys, but I wouldnt buy a character with an original mesh that requires another model. I also dont buy character morphs. I personally think that Renda wont sell if encoded with V3.

mateo ... keep in mind that Anton's 6 months is for someone who knows the ins and outs of Poser CR2's and joints in a way that only a very select few in this community do. He also knows how to model a figure so that it bends the best way possible.

That 6 month benchmark may be very optimistic for other figure modelers, so I would say 6-12 months is probably a safe range for a figure that is cutting edge.

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 14:21

book mark 4 later reading

Anton said, 'I'll be honest in that I am very worried that now that Apollo is released, and after 7 years of the same figure design, I am about to be ripped off in the next generation of figures' Anton, I voiced the same concern on another site about your work, basically saying 'I hope anton is well covered for copyright on AMax' It seems to me that AMax, being original and innovative, will be a prime target for the rip-off brigade. In fact, we've reached the point now where any original work is seen as fair game for these clowns. Sad days, indeed. Especially for a community of people who like to think of themselves as 'artists'. True artists don't go looking for stuff to steal. Only piss-artists do that. mac

I'm sorry, but I have to say this again ... that Renderosity released a "flagship" figure with known quality issues is a very sad commentary on what this site is all about. If they don't care about their flagship figure, who is to say they care about the quality of anything else in their store?

It HAS to turn around, for the good of this community, merchants and customers alike.

Unless ALL of the Poser sites, but most especially this one, make a commitment to quality, to copyright infringement violations, to WAREZ requests, and to the concerns of their merchants and customers, it will not happen. Those who run the communities we frequent should SET AN EXAMPLE of the standards they wish their customers and merchants to uphold. Enough said.

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 15:22

Guys, Thanks for all the great feedback and suggestions. After working closely with our RPublishing group this week and engaging in an ongoing dialog with DAZ, we have come to the same point of view that many of you have promoted here. It's clear the right thing to do is pull the Renda product from the Marketplace until such time that we can be certain that she is untainted by any third-party intellectual property and that all known quality problems are resolved. Tomorrow, we will be issuing a refund to all buyers of Renda and related add-on products. This will happen automatically and should not require action on behalf of the buyers. At the same time we will ask all buyers to remove Renda and related products from their systems due to the related copyright and EULA claims. Thanks, Tim "Fortunately, I say fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an occassion" - Fog Horn Leg Horn

Message edited on: 06/30/2005 18:31

Good going, Tim. It's the right thing to do for sure. :)

I think it's the right thing also, Tim. Let her fade in the minds of the merchants and the community and come back with something inovative.

Some times hard decisions had to be made for the sake of the whole thing, tough call you have to face but we all think that is the right one. My faith in this store is slowly coming back but coming back after all.

I think this is probably the best decision you could have made. Companies, just like individuals can make mistakes. There's no shame in it. Just make good the loss and move on. By learning from this project, I'm confident the next one will be far better. I applaud you for doing the right thing by your customers. mac

Agreed! The right move for certain.

I'm impressed by the refunds. BTW I think Renda will not recover from this, and sadly has hit the 10 merchants who supported the new figure quite badly. I agree with others that Renda should be consigned to the bin and a new figure created, otherwise i don't think anyone is going to take any other Rosity figures seriously, I know i wont buy into any Rosity figures without seeing public reaction in future, unless remove renda. Well, the products will all work with V3, for what that is worth. Which isn't the consolation one would hope for in terms of the kind of sales from a flagship launch, but still, it means that they haven't lost all of their initial efforts. I feel so sorry for everyone.

Sound decision IMO. Deecey posted a thought that I think is very sound, for Renderosity to focus on quality and fewer items. As a customer I am sometimes frustrated by the sheer volume of stuff I have to wade through. The rating system has helped a lot, as well as the feedback, but just finding stuff to begin with is tricky -- the search keywords often pull up non-related items. Focusing on consistently excellent merchants like Anton, Blackhearted and Morris could be a winning formula for R'osity.

I have had Renda for a week now. Sure this whole thing is quite messy, but I hope to ease the balance simply by saying this. I like Renda. I think her face is unique and the mesh offers a very fast package on my Poser stage. Her lips were also well done and give her a distinct personality worth keeping. My hope is that Renda will be back soon, stronger than ever.

"We can rebuild her, we have the technology..."

Glad the right decision has been made, at last. Let's hope the next flagship has a sail, eh? Cliff

"A store with 3000 quality items will sell more, and take less expense to run, than a store with the same 3000 quality items and 122,000 other items that only sell a maximum of ten. The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images." This is shelf space in Retail sales. Sellthrough on shelf space is a critical component in measuring a retail store's success. There's an additional benefit -- it will help, once again, to decentralize the marketplace. "It seems to me that AMax, being original and innovative, will be a prime target for the rip-off brigade. In fact, we've reached the point now where any original work is seen as fair game for these clowns" The inherent problem is that Cr2's -- which are program settings files -- are not themselves covered by copyright. So Eula restrictions must be used. However, Eula's can only be utilized effectively against those directly bound by them (ie purchasers). In short, one cannot depend on a concept of community scruples to achieve compliance with an ethical code. That would be nice, but is no more likely than getting people to stop stealing because it is wrong. In the end, in both the larger business world and the much more cozy and comfortable business world we live in right now, creating something which is innovative is going to benefit the innovator only for a short time directly and monetarily (if they choose to do so) before becoming absorbed into the overall stable of techniques. That's what happens with art. Does it sting? yeah. A lot. Does it piss ya off? Oh, hell yeah. Can you do anything about it? Hire a lawyer. Should you? No. Accept it. Use it. Turn it to your advantage. Don't let people forget that you were the one that discerned that particular thing that spurred that innovation. Then move on to the next challenge and keep it up. "I think this is probably the best decision you could have made. Companies, just like individuals can make mistakes. There's no shame in it. Just make good the loss and move on. By learning from this project, I'm confident the next one will be far better." I concur, wholeheartedly, with this part. Petunias, anyone?

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

"Fortunately, I say fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered for just such an occassion" - Fog Horn Leg Horn ROTFLMAO!!!!!!! Okay, THAT was funny. My hope is that Renda will be back soon, stronger than ever. Maybe they can work toward a re-launch in, say, September. >;-P bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I quite agree... whats the point of making another V3 add-on? Isnt that kinna what we all already do? (Excepting those that do their own meshes of course or that use other bases) I think u guys need to collaborate with someone who has built figures from the ground up, and even moreso, someone u can trust who isnt going to violate rules or copyright. Even this add-on biz is kinna cheezy, since it relies on DAZ's creation.... if they can build a base from the ground up, surely u guys can too. And aside from that, only then can rendo truly compete with DAZ. Least I believe. Im not really surprised it flopped... I had a bad feeling about it, as I stated in the first thread when all ths started. Im sorry tho, for those merchants that supported her are taking the heat for it, as well as Renderosity.... but it could have been avoided had rendo not jumped the gun about releasing her. :o

In reading all this it just amazes me that with all the talented and creative people here at renderosity that Renderosity has not held a contest for the creation of the new "Renderosity Super Model" with the main rule being it be completely original. then let us all vote on the winner and upon total verification of it being an original figure let it be released. as for ripping renderosity for the flub need i remind everyone that just this last christmas Daz also had issues with products having copywrite infrindgments. thease things happen. as for those that put their time and effort into creating things for the renda character I belive that they do deserve compensation. maybe a $50.00 Renderosity gift voucher...

Elizabyte -- yer evil. Although, I have to admit, finding out that tim has a sense of humor about this did strike me as funny as well. a most excellent choice of quote. On soooo many levels.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Thanks, Tim. I think it's the right decision, too. Lady_Annika's idea of a contest could be fun/interesting. And also if the modeler(s) have to put their name on it next time, maybe they won't be so quick to snag bits that don't belong to them. And as for compensating the people who were part of the initial merchant team, if you decide to do it, I hope you take it out of the modeler's hide.

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Regards,

Dave Frohmader (Nagus)

DAZ Studio for Beginners Tutorials

Is anyone really supprised at this? Sheesh, take a look around at how this place is run. It's about a quick and easy buck...and we all buy into it. Having been here from day one and witnessed all the business shenanigans that went on with Mr. J Kammerer, it's not a suprise how this all is going down. I'm sure he's having a good time watching this. Anyone remember poserforum and Willow? Probably not..

Very droll re: ther feathers numbered thing...and I feel tha The Team should really forge ahead and de construct the mistakes in this one and replace with the correct protocols...I say this a non Poser user of this figure and find it to be a lot more easily 'bone able' in my program of choice than the rather poly dense figures I've tried...I may even succeed with this one...all for naught as it'll be ileagal,but maybe with a corrected one my work will not be in vain...sigh..still a fine resolution all round to a sticky situation... peace bobby

Once in a while I look around,
I see a sound
and try to write it down
Sometimes they come out very soft
Tinkling light sound
The Sun comes up again

"The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images." "that only sell a maximum of ten" I am sorry. I never post in discussions like these, but this disturbs me. The good ones are paying for the bad ones? Have looked in the market place? There are some awesome and excellent products that are paying for the bad ones, but there are also some really bad products that also sell, and some excellent products that don't sell. The Renderosity limit of $300 sales before you upload a fourth product is already one measure in place to stop a flood of sub-standard items, but I know of many excellent products that took months to make that will only sell a few copies because they are niche market products. How many people will buy a 250 000 polygon bulldozer? One? Two? Does that mean it is a bad product? Does that mean it shouldn't be on sale here, because it doesn't sell 100 copies? But a set of tattoo overlays that sells a hundred copies is considered a good product and will obviously stay in the marketplace. Applying this sort of logic means that all niche products will dissappear from the store, and that only the most basic products for NVIATWAS renders will eventually remain. Is that the kind of store you want? I agree that the standard of testing should be raised, but please don't let the number of sales determine whether a product is good or not. By the very nature of Poser a set of "big boob" morphs will always outsell a model of a microwave oven, but that does not mean it is a better product. Raise the standard by all means, but don't make value judgements on the quality of a product based on it's sales. (PS My next product took a month to make, has 40 controls for moving parts, over two hundred moving parts and over 400 lines of ERC coding. I will be happy, and expect to, sell five copies. Does that make it a bad product?)

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

I have to pipe in here. I dont think it is the standard in which the testers test should be raised I think the testers should do the jobs they were given or find someone that will. Don't get me wrong there are some really harsh testers out there and i usually get them. and i think the ones that do their jobs jen Wink only add to the quality of the products that are here. with that said the price in which some products cost affect the number sold as well. there are some really awesome items that i want but will not buy due to the fact that i think the price is a bit much. and as the saying goes you can please some of the people some of the time but you will never please everyone. Fact is we as merchants do not have any say in the way render is run. my opinion deal with it or leave it. just a personal opinion :)

I was surprised to see a copyright myth being promulgated here - that a cr2 file can't be copyrighted. Feel free to try telling that to Daz or any other distributor of cr2 files containing proprietary morph data. Any document can be copyrighted, regardless of mythology to the contrary. Maybe what was meant was that the file format itself (a document ending in the cr2 extension) can't be copyrighted. I think they could even try to do that, but it wouldn't be sustained in a court case.

Most often it is not Copyright (Mesh can be Copyrighted I believe), but EULA Violations. I believe JP and other factors of a figure fall into the EULA.

ratscloset
aka John

"It would be a terrific opprotuinty for everyone if a new, unique, original looking female figure is created by Renderosity. I hope Rendo does not give up on their original concept. Steady on. Stiff upper lip." Lululee
I agree 100% ! Be positive!!!

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale, A tale of a fateful trip That started from this 3d site Aboard this tiny ship...

Actually - while the file itself can be copyrighted, certian parts of the data cannot be for various reasons. I have been dealing with several parties (one of them a copyright lawyer) on this very topic. To make a relevant example - it is not possible to copyright the "functional aspect" of an otherwise copyrightable item. It is also fair use to copy sections of a digital work for purposes of "compatibility". As such, copying joint parameters is allowed under copyright law alone. To prevent this, companies (such as DAZ) license their products in such a way that you waive those rights. Now you are quite correct that one can copyright an individual file. However, copyright law by itself allows me to make "fair use" of portions of it should it be needed for compatibility (e.g. for clothing), if the section in question is a purely "functional" aspect of the work (such as joint parameters), etc. That is why one NEEDS to have explicit terms in a license regarding the conditins under which a person may or may not copy parts of the digital product. This is not really a discussion for this thread, but like yourself, I dislike seeing incorrect or incomplete information regarding copyright spread to those that do not have access to all the facts. EK

By the very nature of Poser a set of "big boob" morphs will always outsell a model of a microwave oven, but that does not mean it is a better product. LOL! I am SO with you on that one! (PS My next product took a month to make, has 40 controls for moving parts, over two hundred moving parts and over 400 lines of ERC coding. I will be happy, and expect to, sell five copies. Does that make it a bad product?) Depends who you ask. Some people really seem to think it does. :-( But IMO, no, it doesn't.

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

*""The 3000 good ones are paying for the costs of displaying the other 122,000 thumbnails and promo images."
"that only sell a maximum of ten"

I am sorry. I never post in discussions like these, but this disturbs me. The good ones are paying for the bad ones? Have looked in the market place? There are some awesome and excellent products that are paying for the bad ones, but there are also some really bad products that also sell, and some excellent products that don't sell."*

Yeah, I'd say he could stuff that opinion too. Consider the niches. Not many are into specialized characters and thank goodness many merchants have enough class not to flood the market with another impossibly boobed goth V3.
If you're looking for the 'sex sells' only crowd, it's at Rotica.

...... Kendra

"I was surprised to see a copyright myth being promulgated here - that a cr2 file can't be copyrighted. Feel free to try telling that to Daz or any other distributor of cr2 files containing proprietary morph data. Any document can be copyrighted, regardless of mythology to the contrary."

Incorrect.

Not any document can be copyrighted. It must have sufficient originality.

Precedent has already established that program settings cannot be copyrighted, as effectively explained by EK. Precendent which has been tested several times internationally as well as within the US, and stood up every time.

They can, however contain copyrighted information (in this case, morphs and geometry).

Anything which determine the basic functionality of an item within a program is absent that copyright. This would include, within a cr2, any sort of functionality information (bending, twisting moving, postioning -- in short, rigging).

for the purpose of simplicity: you create a morph, and that morph is stored in the cr2; that morph is copyrighted material. The Cr2 itself is not.

A cr2, stripped of all copyrightable information, is nothing more than a file contianing postioning information for the program to function effectively on the object -- program settings. The object itself and derivations there of are subject to copyright, but the program settings -- no matter how creatively the settings are used, or how originally they are put together -- are not subject to such.

DAZ knows this. DAZ's Lawyers know this. This is why they have created a contractual agreement that expressly forbids the use of their settings from their figures by the purchaser.

However, DAZ is also aware that since these are program settings, it is entirely possible for those exact same settings to be arrived at independently of using their figure, strictly on the basis of form and shape.

To further reduce the likelihood of such happening, they have trademarked the specific shape of Victoria and Michael, as well -- so a variance is required, which prevents, once again, actual duplication of the exact space points uniformly throughout the figure. (Renda was not exact, therefore was not subject to the trademark).

However, because they are program settings, and they can be duplicated independently and with certainty and are wholly dependent on the application itself, they are not sufficiently capable of being original works under the USCO code and the effective treaties and agreements thereby associated.

It is not a myth. It is an established precedent. It is also an invovled aspect of IP law that affects far more than just poser.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I am sorry. I never post in discussions like these, but this disturbs me. The good ones are paying for the bad ones? Have looked in the market place? There are some awesome and excellent products that are paying for the bad ones, but there are also some really bad products that also sell, and some excellent products that don't sell. Helgard and Kendra, my apologies. I was not inferring that a product that sold less than 10 was "bad" in quality. But perhaps this example will explain what I was trying to say. Let's say 36 products go in the store on the same day. Each of those thumbnails is 15K in size, so each person that logs on and visits the marketplace downloads about a half a megabyte just to see what is new in the store that day. Let's say that we have 1800-2300 people on line here and they stay for an hour (this has to be in simple terms for purpose of example). During that hour, let's say that 20% of them are looking at what is new in the store. That's 360-460 people downloading a half a meg of thumbnails 180 to 230 megabytes of data just to deliver thumbnails in an hour. In four to five hours, you deliver a gigabyte. In one day, 6 gigabytes. In one month, 180 gigabytes. Just for thumbnails. It costs money to deliver that. Now from the merchant's standpoint, each is giving 50% of their sales price toward that bandwidth. Everyone donates the same cut, and everyone gets their product thumbnails shown to the same number of people. It seems fair. BUT .. the person who sold 100 copies is contributing more toward those bandwidth costs than the person who sold 10 copies. So from a business standpoint, it makes sense to try to select items that will sell more, so that operating and maintenance costs can trimmed to a reasonable level. Yes, you're right there is some "bad" stuff that sells. And there is some "good" stuff that doesn't sell as many. But then again, there are other things that there are far too many of and THAT may be why they aren't selling. Those are the items I was thinking of when I referenced things that only sold ten copies. It is HARD to decide the right balance. But we are looking at a site whose staff can't keep up with it; and at times the servers choke because they can't keep up with it. Starting to cut back on the number of items offered, along with raising the quality of the items offered, will really be better all around for this site. And better for the community. I hope that makes more sense now ... it's very hard to say everything that you are feeling in this medium. My apologies.

Is anyone really surprised at this? Sheesh, take a look around at how this place is run. It's about a quick and easy buck...and we all buy into it. Having been here from day one and witnessed all the business shenanigans that went on with Mr. J Kammerer, it's not a surprise how this all is going down. I'm sure he's having a good time watching this.<< Hey Mobius, It is interesting that you say that, because just yesterday while talking to Ironbear he and I pretty much said the same thing all boiling down to a pattern of behavior and curiously enough, despite those patterns, people continue to move on as though that situation occurred to such an extent where Ive heard people of power in this Community joking about this Community having short term and selective memories. /shrug/ maybe there is some truth to that after all. Forgive me for not mentioning Solandra, which incidentally, if memory serves me, was really one of the first human figures made for this Community that wasnt made by Zygote/DAZ but made from a Community Member. and I also remember that, even though you and I had a disagreement about her and some work that I thought still needed to be done on her, and despite your anger at me at the time, you worked very hard on making her even better for your customers and put a lot of time in her creation, long after I left Renderosity. As for me having a good time watching this. Strangely, I find myself apathetic to the whole thing. Maybe that is because that Poser has once more become only a hobby for me (and a drastically reduced one for that matter) and Ive moved on to an industry where progression and innovation happens on a weekly basis and absorbs much of my time. Perhaps a few years ago, Id be dancing a jig and urinating on the corpse of Renda, and be smug about the whole ordeal I did have a tendency to be a PITA at times. But today, I could care less if Tim walked out of his office butt naked and declaring how wonderful he looked in his new clothes. Today, however, I just sit back and just shake my head in amazement at how this Community allows these things to repeatedly happen to them over here and how the administration and moderators here (those that I always believed to have integrity) rush, like mindless zombies, and defend the bad decisions made (like Renda) and repeat in mindless, robotic fashion that: Renderositys Sales have NEVER been better. Which leads me to believe that if the Community isnt going to bother to wake up and defend itself from these sort of abuses, well then, they deserve whatever crap they get. If these people arent going care about themselves then, really, why should I? Off topic, very AWESOME work that youve been doing with Stonemason and you can definitely be sure that I will be buying more your guys stuff over at DAZ. I cant get enough of your sci-fi stuff (or your Urban set) and always enjoy the hidden messages that Stone puts in the textures!! Jack (who loves his Mother LOL)

If you're looking for the 'sex sells' only crowd, it's at Rotica.<< Actually, you'd be surprised that even the items that don't have a sexual use sells quite a bit over at Renderotica, as I am sure that some merchants who sell both here and there will attest too. Jack

Hmm... what to say?? Sorry some merchants worked , on now useless, items for Renda. But maybe this will work out for the best in the end. One door closes and another opens. Smile everyone, it does get better! :)

Jack...no hard feelings...I had completely forgotten about that. I'm getting old! And, I don't know what work you're talking about with Stonemason...but his stuff does look awesome!

Different Moebius. He confused you with Moe.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Um, there's a lot more impossibly boobed NVIATWAS tripe posted over here than at Rotica. In general, the sexual stuff is much more sophisticated over there than here. And while our store does have sexual items in it, that's not all there is.

In general, the sexual stuff is much more sophisticated over there than here. I've also found that doing attractive, artistically interesting erotica is quite a challege. Much more difficult than a lot of stuff I've tried, actually. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Well off to start re-converting my Renda clothes over to my Character...

No hard feelings either, Mobius and I apologize, didn't realize that there was a Mobius and a Moebius, I figured both were the same individual, I'm sorry! Jack

I am not arguing that top sellers do not pay for the bandwidth, but my point is that to increase the quality of products on Renderosity is not a simple matter of dropping the poor sellers and keeping the top sellers. That will result in a market place filled with proven sellers, kill all attempts at innovation, and remove the entire range of niche market products. The resulting marketplace will look like a fashion boutique for Vicky. New artists and merchants will find it impossible to get established, and will eventually lead to a stagnation of the marketplace. My point is that to increase the quality of products a different measurement has to be found than "sells more than ten copies". If someone is happy to make a brilliant product that will sell five copies, then he should be free to do so. The marketplace and the forces of capitilism will eventually move that item to the warehouse and off the site, but if the maker was happy with his five sales, then why deny him the right to sell? The same forces will also drive a poor product out of the marketplace. What is really needed is better testing. For example: Failing my product because it said "The files in this product...." instead of "All the files in this product...." is not funny. Failing my product because all the files where not listed in the file listing is not funny either, especially when I resubmitted the same product the next day, without any changes, and it was passed (I resubmitted it because neither me nor my two beta testers could see what files were missing from the listing). But it is funny that neither of the two people who tested this product found that my product only worked in Poser 5 and 6, because my files referenced a "Glass Environment Map" that is included in Poser 5 and 6 but not with Poser 4, and my product was advertised to work in Poser 4. The first Poser 4 user who bought it found that error. So we need better testing, and that will increase the time taken to test, the cost of testing, and the level of skill of testers has to be increased. This is money that needs to be spent. Or very soon this place will just be a poor man's Turbo Squid, were you can pick up good and bad models for a song, with no way of knowing what is good or bad. Rating system? Recommended products? More honest reviews? Proper Rendo investigation of complaints against a product instead of referring us to the merchant? I don't know, and that is not my job to decide, but I do agree that the quality of testing needs to be improved, and not by some system of "it sells so it must be good". Helgard

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

I didn't watch the other discussions about her but it's sad to hear it has to come this way ...I'm always interested in new figures and I hope you will find a way to pull her again!

I hope Renda will be back with another...better cr2. The mesh was good, I think. I like her face, mostly eyes and lips and her shoulder...and REDUX! The problem was only with cr2. Renda...we're waiting back with new UV (inside lips and sockets and nipples, separated lashes)!

"The problem was only with cr2." That actually is the issue. Given the issues with the CR2 AND the fact that she so closely matches V3 in shape - it is definitely within the bounds of "reasonable" to assume that V3 was used in her mesh construction as well. DAZ has made it quite clear that constructing a figure mesh around V3 through manual or automatic "shrink-wrapping" is a big "no no". Even if Renda was somehow "coincidentally" close to V3 in terms of mesh shape, the whole "Joint Param Copying" incident makes it too dangerous "legally" for Rendo to simply re-rig the mesh. I gather if they thought that was an option - they would have taken it rather than pull the figure. Oh, and "mahna mahna" (ynsaen got that song in my head & it just won't go away!!!)

But it is funny that neither of the two people who tested this product found that my product only worked in Poser 5 and 6, because my files referenced a "Glass Environment Map" that is included in Poser 5 and 6 but not with Poser 4, and my product was advertised to work in Poser 4. The first Poser 4 user who bought it found that error.

Just one question, and please don't take it as an attack, because I agree with about 90% of what you said. But are you saying that you think the store testers should each own a copy of P4/PP/P5/P6 and D|S so they can check which ones it works in? Are you going to pay for that? Should Rendo? And what about when testers leave and new testers come on board?

If you're going to advertise that something works in P4, it's your responsibility, not the Rendo testers' to make sure it does. Maybe you need more beta testers? My beta group has 23 people in it, and between us somebody owns a copy of each program. So our products have been tested in everything that we say they work in. If the first P4 user that bought your program noticed the problem, why didn't you bother to have someone beta test it in P4 before you even sent it to Rendo?

Again, I agree with almost all of what you say, but using store testers as a personal beta team is a pet peeve of mine.

Doot-doo-di-doo-doo. ;-)

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Sorry, maybe it was a bad example. It is my responsibility to test my own products and I did test it in Poser 4 (but if you have Poser 4 installed on the same drive as Poser 5, the CR2 will still find the texture map in the Poser 5 folder and it won't show up as an error). What my point was meant to illustrate was that the testers failed the product for missing the word "All" and the second time for something that no-one could find, and approved it without the second thing being "fixed", but failed to find the real error. Trust me, I do not use the store testers as personal beta testers. My products work the first time round. (Except for the damn Glass Environment map, lol) 23 beta-testers? Wow! I don't even know 23 people......

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Thanks for clearing that up. :-) I just didn't want people to get the idea that testers should be responsible for trying things out in every program. And I'm right there with you on the "all" thing. lol. I talk too much over at DAZ, lol. So yeah, I'm in a group of 23, and they're all really good friends of mine. Several are store testers at other sites, and many are other merchants. I don't let people beta test for me that I don't know really well and trust. I'm actually in a couple other groups with totally different people, too. All friends I've met here or at DAZ. From talking too much. ;-)

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

I'm a tester at another store...you know, butterfly_wish , and if I get a new figure to test...for example a 100 % original poser figure :), I always test at P4, P5, P6 and sometimes in DAZ Studio AND check the files manually. Yes, I know it is a little slower procedure, but needed I think. This is why I have a product still pending since weeks, but in another store it is released. I know about a serious problem at this product...almost same as Renda...no...worse... I was helpful and told to vendor and to the other store...but I still see in store. I don't understand this. I thought that if they know about a problem...maybe answer me.. or check the product....why didn't notice this the tester? I think testers need to help a little. I always help if I can...and usually can.

Yes, you're a great tester! :-) I've only got P5 and D|S, so I usually only test a product in P5. If it had specific D|S files I'd test it there, though. And I check any P4 bump maps. I've had to send things back for fixing up to six times before the problems were corrected. I know what you mean about some stores not catching things they should. :-( No idea why they would continue to sell a product with serious problems. That's not good for anyone involved.

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

One way to test a product in P4 alone is to zip up or move P5/P6 before doing your P4 testing :D And P4 shouldn't find anything from P5/P6 unless you have some absolute references (or have stuff in your P4 runtime that doesn't come with P4). Cheers, Cliff

Believe it or not, I do agree with everything you say. 8-) I am also a person who has created "niche" products that haven't sold. I elected to take them off this site myself. But I had fun making them. That's the whole point. And believe me, I've also been quite vocal in the past about some of the more blatant "sex sells" products. 8-D And I also agree with you that niche products have their place. For example, I have on my hard drive half-made clothing for kids, Don, Judy, and several other ideas that had been rejected in other places. I WANT to do niche products. But here, it seems they get buried so fast that no one ever sees them unless you have "a name." And yeah, one in particular sold only ten copies. I almost wonder if the niche products would stand a better chance if they were more visible? Another part of the problem is, when people see what really sells they have a tendency to copy it. And then we get a zillion of them to choose from. That seems the most obvious place to start when I say that the number of items has to be reduced. Yes, you are right ... we need better quality. Yes, you are right, we need niche products. And most of all, we need originality, and not more of the same. And people need to be more considerate of other people's work. As I said, the decision of what to sell and what not to sell is a delicate and hard decision where you have to strike the right balance. No matter WHAT the decisions are, someone is going to be unhappy. It is a job that I wouldn't want. Sorry for the big blunders I made in my attempts to say what was on my mind. In the greater scheme of things, I hope you understand that I was only trying to suggest things that would HELP the community as a whole.

Communication is rough in a forum with no body language :( But those of good will see a conversation through to the conclusion where - all too often - it's discovered that there are actually quite a lot of intelligent, witty, and fun people around. Who knew? Cheers, Cliff

Yup, Cliff, that it is ... my posts weren't said with malice. My brain knew what it wanted to say but my fingers didn't say it right. Feet taste very bad, by the way. 8-D

Attached Link: http://www.jaguarwoman.com

Say it isn't so . . . How can this happen in a store where every merchant is required to cough up copy of a license for virtually every hair they place in a product? How can it be that Renderosity has made a point of telling people that they *should* ideally not include any pixel in any product that they didn't create themselves? I'm personally grateful for the rigor this introduced into my own business, but . . . you know . . . it seems like you should follow the same ethics and practices you demand from your merchants in return for the privelege to sell products here. Why is it always the big authorities and policemen that eventually get exposed for not doing as they insist others do? Yet . . . it seems to always be so.

Dana Sitarzewski
Jaguarwoman Designs
http://www.jaguarwoman.com

I ve no axe to grind - mainly because I read some forum posts on Renda before leaping to buy Even as a spectator though the main thing that comes through to me is how different the standards in quality checking and control have been for this internal Rosity product and what is generally expected by Rosity of any external provider If that doesnt leave a sour taste is the mouth of every vendor jumping hoops at Rosity's behest to get products placed here I dont know what will ; )

.......and see what happens.

I think that I need a('nother) vacation........

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I'll give Renda a look. When she's ready to be looked at.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I think the people who worked so very hard on Renda should be thanked and honored for doing the right thing. Sheesh, anyone can make a mistake, and I most sincerely doubt that anyone consciously did anything wrong. Folks, try to put yourselves in their shoes. This has got to be so hard on the Renderosity team. I, for one, will continue to trust Renderosity, because of the honorable decisions they made to correct a difficult situation.

Will the community get to know who did this. I don't need a pitchfork or torch, just would like to know who to stay away from. Usually, the person or persons involved have done this more than once, when something like this happens. I just want to protect myself.

Hopefully the protection of the customers WILL be handled ... and it might be best to handle it quietly and behind the scenes. Perhaps Tim lost feather numbers 246 and 3003; but there may be more feathers flying as well. 8-)

What about other stores that may have products by said person/persons? What about already bought products?

Another part of the problem is, when people see what really sells they have a tendency to copy it. And then we get a zillion of them to choose from. LOL. That is SO true! Thus we have a zillion impossibly-breasted Vickies running around here! Well... maybe not so much running, as they'd knock themselves unconscious. LOL. I most sincerely doubt that anyone consciously did anything wrong. Well somebody did something consciously wrong, otherwise there wouldn't be a copyright violation. ;-)

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

because of the honorable decisions they made to correct a difficult situation.

A difficult situation that they, in fact, created by a) not listening to the people that said the model had serious flaws and wasn't ready to be released; b) very obviously not putting her through even the barest of testing and certainly far less testing than merchants items are put through; and c) not bothering to even take a peek when the model had a very obvious resemblence to V3.

I personally have a lot of trouble IDing models particularly when they don't have hair and I took one look at Renda and said wow she looks a whole lot like Vicky.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2165790

The obvious duplication of the Victoria 3 shape and joint parameters shouldn't have even been attempted ... especially after the matter was discussed at length in the referenced thread (see post 95). And DanFarr's responses in post #138 and #141. DAZ's feelings on using V3's shape and JP's were clear even before this project went underway.

That is more understandable, Deecey. :) A niche item, especially here, is almost doomed. I don't expect my mermaid character to sell very much because of the lack of that particular type of character use in the galleries. She's a niche but unique. Same with anything for Koshini and gang. And then there's timing and which store would do better for what product. I have a small store because I won't put just anything in the market and have more freestuff than mp stuff.
Another thing to consider, although it may not amount to a lot, is that once an items gets to top 30 status the percentage changes. Top selling items pay 10% less to the store where low selling items pay that extra 10%.

What the marketplace needs to do is get choosey. Deny textures that are simply flood fill that took an hour (or less) to do, require detail. Start suggesting that a simple prop, like one would find in freestuff, be either put in freestuff or included in a much larger marketplace package. Deny first time models who just followed the latest tutorial, such as a the rhino 'model a chair' tut.
Poser Pros has no problem with making suggestions to merchants about raising the potential of their products as well as taking the stand that they wont accept just anything. Nothing wrong with that.

...... Kendra

LOL Thanks Kendra. Bear with me ... sometimes I put my foot in my mouth because I can't find the right words. But even in my complaining and ranting, my heart is ALWAYS in the right place (I think! LOL). Feet taste HORRIBLE!!!! Yuck. Ptew!!!

If you don't mind me asking. What are you into these days that's so fast moving and innovative on a weekly basis? -ScottA

'Yes, you're right there is some "bad" stuff that sells. And there is some "good" stuff that doesn't sell as many. But then again, there are other things that there are far too many of and THAT may be why they aren't selling (deecey)' 'I almost wonder if the niche products would stand a better chance if they were more visible? (deecey)' At the risk of getting involved in a pointless discussion that'll never change anything, I'll make a few comments. The problem isn't just what it's good or bad, sells or doesn't sell. It's the sheer VOLUME of stuff in the Marketplace. DAZ did the smart thing last year by clearing out a load of products that didn't sell or were sub-standard. Why? Because by doing that, they made the store a lot easier to browse through. If you can't find anything without wading through 3,000 pages of stuff you don't want, you'll give up pretty quick. And that's bad for the store and the merchants. So maybe.... well, no 'maybe' about it... that's definitely why a good product may only sell 10 copies. What can you expect? It's buried under an avalanche of other products after the first week. I have products at DAZ from 4 years ago that still sell. Mainly because people can still find them. Ever tried to find a 4 year-old product here? Go on! I dare you! What needs to be done with the store here is similar to what we all do with the dreaded garage or attic. Spend a weekend/week/month going through it and chucking out anything that's unnecessary. Who decides that? Well, don't ask me. It's not my store, thank god. mac

While I can't get into too specific details due to NDA's and whatnot, I have been working in the Anime and Video Game market for a while now. Interesting enough, getting into the Video Game industry would've never been a possibility for me if not for Poser, which helped to teach me the basics so that I didn't have such a steep learning curve when moving on to Maya. I have found that the Video Game market is really fast paced, it seems like every week a new product comes out that challenges other companies to emulate that feature and include it within their own game engines (MMORPGs are a good example of that). It is also interesting to see the flurry of activity that ripples out in the "Modding" Communities as average players or gaming fans also enhance or expand a game beyond it's prescriped capabilities. Anyhow, that is where my time these past few years have been spent, with much less drama or excitibility. :o) Jack

I don't know much about the gaming industry. Until recently I thought it was a passing fad. But nowadays mothers and fathers are playing as much as the kids! A secretary in her 50's was telling me once how much she wanted a PlayStation console. It kinda freaked me out. TRIX ain't just for kids anymore. ;-)

Deecey, however, The costs are a hell of a lot less than the profit. You have to remember, they get 50% of EVERYTHING they sell. For the most part, if something has one sale, it more than pays for it's cost to be hosted. Then ya have the things selling thousands of copies, which cover pretty much everything else. If rosity was complaining about things not selling enough to pay the bills, they definately wouldn't have as many items in the store, and you'd hear them bitching about it too. Gotta remember, Bondware doesnt do anything unless they can make a profit.

I'd suggest you take a good look at As S's Shapes series: e.g. http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=35684 The only thing As needs to do is set a seperate head dial (so you can have Keilo 85% body and 55% head, for example) ... But the system works very well -- and would be a great way to redo and relaunch Renda.

I think that sort of defeats whatever purpose that Renderosity owners had when purchasing and working on Renda... the intention was not to create, yet another, Victoria 3 character... but an entirely new figure that would've been (or had been hoped to be by the PTB) to be "competition" to Victoria 3. I think the majority, no matter what was done to Renda, would stray as far away from her as possible if Renderosity choose to re-release her... if she had been a firework, she would've been an utter dud... better to scrap her and start fresh... or not at all... but I am 100% certain that it will be the former... Jack

Jack, Look at David, for example. "Just another M3" -- but not at all. No one treats As S's characters and such as "just another" ... I think people in the market are resiliant, but who knows.

The only problem with using AsShanim's characters on Renda is that it will still make use of the original body shape and joint parameters that are protected by DAZ. It's not a valid solution.

Message edited on: 07/05/2005 07:09

Ethesis, Actually, if I remember correctly, David is actually a cross between V3 and Stephanie Petite... Unlike AsShanim's character (which was based off of V3 to begin with), Renda was supposed to be a completely new and unique figure, built completely from scratch... unfortunately, during the creation process she was kinda stamped out of the same mold as V3 and then DAZ's Intellectual Property was used to make her work. Think of Renda being like a cookie... Renda was supposed to be a completely new cookie, and though it there are other chocolate chip cookies out there, Renda was suppose to be a unique recipe by Renderosity... However, during the creation process, the creators of Renda decided to create their cookie to be made in the same shape of DAZ's own cookie... already removing some of the uniqueness that Renderosity's cookie would've had, but then, when it came right down to making the cookie ediable, Renderosity decided to use the same (not so) "secret" cookie recipe that DAZ created for their cookie, packaged it and tried to sell a DAZ Brand cookie as their own. Almost like me taking a bag of Nabisco's Chip's Ahoy cookie, opening them up, sprinkling a little powder sugar on them and then putting them in a Jack's Sugar Chocolate Blast Cookie bag and selling them as my own brand of cookies... It isn't ethical and it is stealing, no two aways about it... and that is pretty much what just occurred with Renda. The fact that DAZ didn't slap Tim with a lawsuit and even took steps to work with Tim to correct this obvious theft is a testiment to DAZ's desire to work with those that would even entertain a notion of being competition to them (DAZ)... and, personally, I think Tim should be pretty relieved that he got away with it without being punished, unlike Mehndi who lost her position and website in this Community for stealing textures and claiming them as her own. I guess that is the difference between the majority of the Poser Community here and that of the Community on Poser Pros... over there an offense like stealing and trying to pass something off as their own to that Community is a Sin punishable by being ostrosized from the Community and no longer trusted... but over here, theft is seen as a mistake, forgiven... the person responsible is patted on the back for "coming clean", forgiven and allowed to continue their function and plans... As an "outsider" now, looking in on the Community, I look forward to see the new figure that is in works and see just how many people purchase and support a product from a company that has already tried to pass something off as their own that obviously wasn't... Jack

Thats fine and nice and all that, Jack, but did you really have to mention cookies when its late evening here and all stores are closed ??? :-)

Got Milk?

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

My bad, sweetie... sorry. Jack

"I guess that is the difference between the majority of the Poser Community here and that of the Community on Poser Pros... over there an offense like stealing and trying to pass something off as their own to that Community is a Sin punishable by being ostrosized from the Community and no longer trusted..." Ha ha ha..... Really? I will never mention names, because I am not in the muckraking business and I keep to myself, but there have been examples of merchants on DAZ/Poserpros who have been found commiting infringements, and a "fix" is released and those merchants are still selling... I am sure if you ask around someone else will mention the names.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Really? I will never mention names, because I am not in the muckraking business and I keep to myself, but there have been examples of merchants on DAZ/Poserpros who have been found commiting infringements, and a "fix" is released and those merchants are still selling...<< Oh, OK, I understand now... since others can do it and get away with it, then it is OKAY to do it and should be tolerated and excused... there should be no consequences and it shouldn't reflect poorly on those that did it... ...Right? Is that what you are saying?? Forgive me, I just want to be sure that I am understanding you correctly... Jack P.S.: Do you also think that Community Leaders and those who maintain these websites should not be held to higher standards of behavior? Or should they be exempt from facing ramifications for such acts? [Edited to add the P.S. Questions]

Jack, don't twist what I say. I did not say it was to be tolerated or excused, nor did I even suggest that. My point was that Poserpros have also excused merchants guilty of infringements, something you said they do not do in your earlier post. And yes, I do agree that "community leaders" and those that maintain websites should be held to higher standards, or at least the same standards as everyone else. I also believe that when an infringement is committed, such as with Renda and other cases where fixes have been released, the names of those merchants should be made public (not done here), or the exact infringement should be declared (as was not done on Poserpros/DAZ). If I as a merchant start work with another merchant on a joint project, I would hate to find out six months down the line that the person I am working with was responsible for this or other infringements.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

but over here, theft is seen as a mistake, forgiven... the person responsible is patted on the back for "coming clean", forgiven and allowed to continue their function and plans... Heh, heh...only if ya have the right 'friends'..or the right amount of friends....the rest of us are mere peasents ;)

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Actually from what I've read over the last week or so, over here theft and mistakes are just expected. As someone else put it, people roll their eyes and say "saw that coming," then they go back to work.

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Helgard said: >>My point was that Poserpros have also excused merchants guilty of infringements, something you said they do not do in your earlier post.<< I don't recall Mehndi ever excusing merchants that have made mistakes... she would accuse and then ban them from PoserPros. Hence the irony of her now suffering the same fate that she had imposed on others. If they are allowing it now, then it is a result of DAZ working with the current administration there and it is a situation that I am unaware of as I don't spend much time anymore visiting these sites. I suppose if DAZ and the rest of the entire Poser Community wants to tolerate and excuse this pattern of behavior, then who am I to go against the system and loby for any sort of change to reduce the amount of errors like this from occurring? I don't know why it surprises me to find that there seems to be less and less people in the Poser Community who will argue for the need of Standards (or even upholding Standards) in this Community, and those that do (Peng for example) end up getting shouted down by the masses, flammed or driven off... or, all of the above. Renderosity once was a flagship for and was an example of the Poser Community (even when Willow ran it briefly), now however, it has gotten to the point where the main standards that are practiced here is of apathy, isolation and greed... which now, is slowly creeping into the other Poser websites... ...sort of makes me glad to be in a different field of interest now, as this one is no longer what it was once reputed to be. Jack

Jumpstart said: >>Heh, heh...only if ya have the right 'friends'..or the right amount of friends....the rest of us are mere peasents ;)<< Yeah, I... saddly, agree with you. There was a time when this site promoted and encouraged equality of the members that visited it and the treatment of those who were members here... not any longer. The "King" or "Queen" on the throne may've changed, but the fact remains that the Poser Community is back to bowing down and kissing ass again. Jack

Butterfly Fish said: >>As someone else put it, people roll their eyes and say "saw that coming," then they go back to work. << Yep, and that is the sort of apathy that I've been describing this Community as having now. The only time anyone speaks up against something that is wrong, is if it directly effects them... if it doesn't, they shrug and go back to what they were doing. Which is why nothing will change in this Community, whatever standards remain will slowly disappear because the unity that was once so heavily present and encouraged is long since gone. Jack

Divided and de-sensitized. Welcome to the big city of Poser-opolis. :-(

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

sort of makes me glad to be in a different field of interest now, as this one is no longer what it was once reputed to be There was a time when this site promoted and encouraged equality of the members that visited it and the treatment of those who were members here... not any longer. The "King" or "Queen" on the throne may've changed, but the fact remains that the Poser Community is back to bowing down and kissing ass again. I totally agree. My interest in Poser and the community at large has waxed to almost non existent. I really tried,too, when I saw this place heading the wrong direction to get someone to listen. It's become just another big, impersonal place on the web, and, there isn't much reason to pop in anymore.

"Yep, and that is the sort of apathy that I've been describing this Community as having now. The only time anyone speaks up against something that is wrong, is if it directly effects them... if it doesn't, they shrug and go back to what they were doing." While it very well probably does seem so to you jack, I don't think thats entirely true. Apathy while rampant is not complete, yet. In fact beleive it or not, there are some out there who still do speak up when they see inequality,unfairness,and injustice going on in poserdom, unfortunanetly they also tend not to be the one's who will bend down and genuflect before the "right crowd" either. So their voice is ignored and marginalized.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" ~George Orwell

Who is this "right crowd" I keep hearing about? Is there a list of names someplace?

unfortunanetly they also tend not to be the one's who will bend down and genuflect before the "right crowd" either. So their voice is ignored and marginalized. Ain't that the truth. :-/

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Interesting read. I would get my two cents in too, but I think I will pass this time, besides, there has been enough said already that is quite to the point, and no one bothers to hear or listen, or pretends nothing is being said that is worthwhile, and it's already at 204 posts. And I am too busy painting my toenails today among other things to wet my lips into this thread. Oh, one small thing, the old idea that what you won't see won't upset you, can, trust me on that, even a pile of money won't be a good hiding place forever when the tasty peanuts run out and the elephants stop coming in droves because they get tired of chewing on empty tasteless shells.

The only time anyone speaks up against something that is wrong, is if it directly effects them... if it doesn't, they shrug and go back to what they were doing. Welcome to the wonderful world of humanity. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

"Yep, and that is the sort of apathy that I've been describing this Community as having now. The only time anyone speaks up against something that is wrong, is if it directly effects them... if it doesn't, they shrug and go back to what they were doing. Which is why nothing will change in this Community, whatever standards remain will slowly disappear because the unity that was once so heavily present and encouraged is long since gone." Partially true. People stopped speaking out, and instead said screw that, I'll do it my own damn self. And, for the most part, all of those people who did so are flourishing, even as this one tends to weaken. That is a natural cycle. Don't confuse diversification with apathy -- unless you truly do only hang out here. Few folks these days do. They hang here and at one of the other sites. Things do change in the community. In some ways, more rapidly than they have in the past, and in others more slowly. That's normal for any social group of human beings in any situation. But in business, particularly, that's a sign of growth from cottage into something larger. There comes a point where a certain type of unity -- in this case, one which would essentially limit the community to a single site -- be that site DAZ or RO or whoever -- is detrimental to any form of growth or evolution. We've come a long way since the old site wars, Jack. If such a thing were to happen today, it would cause a ripple, but it wouldn't threaten to destroy anything now. The community has grown outside the confines of the small village and is now a series of vilalges -- but all still within the same country, sharing the same core values and the same basic commonalities. That's not bad. well, unless you're a priest or other protector of traditions. THose tend to get broken as things grow larger, new ones forming to replace the old. Exclusive of my own personal investment in the company to which I am a part, instead of trying to confine and restrict the community to a single spot, we -- that is, the shop owners and groups and invidiuals -- shoudl be doing everything we can to encourage a greater level of cooperation and ventures. Which requires trust. Hard thing to come by. This would require changes in the way the sites operate to some extent. For example, I'd like to see renderoaity shift a bit to allow for more advertising by offsite stores. Aside from being a potentially decent source of revenue, they would gain additional goodwill benefits and continue to develop and encourage growth for both themselves and others simply by becoming a hub around which the other places can be located. Unlikely, true. Yet there's trememndous value there. Even the game companies are aware of that one, lol. Ultimately, as I noted before, this isn't anything. THis whole renda fiasco, now, isn't surprising not becuase its renderosity, but becuase its somethign folks expected from the beginning. anyone who does this is expected to have the same result. It was expected by many with the Sixus figure, Linlin. It's still expected by some with Apollo Maximus. That's the dynamic in place, and that dynamic is so deeply ingrained, that its only now starting to percolate that hey, this isn't a good thing. So it will change. IT has too. THere's not edge in similarity, no truly creative expression in conformity. If you look back and see only greatness and forward and only see despair, then yeah -- time to get out. Your ision is clouded by baggage and what ifs. Conversely, if all you see is blue skies and bunny rabbits, then you should likely step back and slap yourself silly. Aside from being rather refreshing, the experience might make you aware that events like this are now just part of the whole deal. sorta like the rest of the world. The truth is that there will be great things in the future (increasing revenues for the stores, more diversified products for the customers, better overall quality, more advanced use of the available featuresets, etc) and bad things in the future (failed stores, buyouts, mergers, bickering, scandals, vendettas, continued oversaturation of the Victoria markets). But, no matter what, it'll keep going. There ain't no fat lady to sing on this one yet...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Forum: Community Center

Subject: Regarding the Renda Figure from RPublishing