I Have No Mouth & I Must Scream, says a Poser figure. Everytime I view the Gallery I'm amazed at the numbers of beautiful women ruined by far too small heads, and far too large breasts. A whole generation of digital artists is developing that must think women are actually built like that. Proportions are a wonderful thing; lack of them has spoiled many a scene. Many say my figures are too thin, but let me say many women are actually built like that, not most surely, but many, even in overweight America. The ranks of actual pinhead women with size 48 ZZ chests supported by anti-gravity are very slender indeed, though. Moving on to the men, I work out at the gym 3 times a week, along with people who are probably in better shape than most Americans, and yet I see few men who are as well developed as even the stock Poser figures, none as well muscled as the fantasy figures the male figures are mostly morphed into. People like that only exist in Hollywood, often due to medical science, and in comic books. I'm not even going to go into the area of the men's private parts; other than to say the digital ones seem to have the same problems as the breasts of the digital women. Perhaps they are taking that stuff that is advertised endlessly on television. You wonder how they ever get their parts into their trousers. If digital people had a real mouth they would scream.

LMAO; unfortunately it'll probably fall on deaf ears as well

"I Have No Mouth & I Must Scream" I wonder how many other "sci-fi nerds" out there smiled LARGE when they saw that reference. ~lol~ To reply to your post though... Some of us use Poser to try and recreate what we see...some of us use it to try and recreate what we think we see, or would like to see...then there's others (like me) who use it for both. The two extreme camps are never going to agree. I love using Nigel (who some people STILL insist on calling The Freak) and most of my images with him are pure fantasy/comedy, which is dictated by the character himself, but I've got some really expressive head and shoulders shots out of him that look quite "real" to me. I'm not going to trash the images of women with cantilever-cleavages, but I'm not going to look at 'em much either, unless they have some (imho) saving grace such as great lighting or an interesting colour palette.

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

"If digital people had a real mouth they would scream."

In frustration or gratitude?

Anti-gravity breasts? Well-endowed genitals? Perfect physical attributes? Why would they complain? Think about it. ;-) Message edited on: 07/03/2005 20:21

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Realism is so overrated in a fantasy world. :oP

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Quote "I'm not even going to go into the area of the men's private parts; other than to say the digital ones seem to have the same problems as the breasts of the digital women. Perhaps they are taking that stuff that is advertised endlessly on television. You wonder how they ever get their parts into their trousers."

Why do you think they are all naked??? The huge knockers & huge schlongs won't fit into a damn thing!!!!(other than leather strappings)

I think we need a chiropractor here or breast reduction specialist in the galleries ;P

LOL

Message edited on: 07/03/2005 20:28

I don't think it's a case of men thinking women are like that... it's just that in some dark corner of their conciousness they quietly wish they were. :)

Jim, I love your work; so much so that I have bought quite a lot of your stuff in the past few years, however... I'm kinda tired of this whole small heads/big tits thing. Women in Europe - and notably in the North of England are markedly taller than their US counterparts. And they have much bigger boobs, too. Which would mean that, given a median for skull size versus height, heads would be proportionally smaller and breasts would be proportionally larger. And, not wanting to start a war here but my American Ex GF tells me "hmmm... I guess not everything is bigger in America".

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I have to say, living in Atlanta, the only women I see, with HUGE boobs are the severely obese or ones filled with silicon. The later is rare, very very rare. Most women that I know that have had boob jobs, are women that started off as size A & moved up to a size C. Now I am speaking of real life, NOT Hollywood or porn stars. It phases me none really, I don't visit the Poser galleries all that much, and when I do, I just move on & laugh. So no biggie. I'll also agree with SamTherapy, this topic is beyond old, it's up there with "Is this art", "You don't model everything yourself" type stuff.

You think women with big boobs are RARE? Ok, so they're not the antigravity types you see here, and most are big boned, but it's entirely possible for a moderately tall woman under 180lbs, which is NOT obese, to have large double D boobs. If you don't think so, I'll introduce you to my wife.

Congrats to you! I've never seen that around my parts :) By the way, when I say obese I'm talking 300lbs+. I just thank god, that I was not blessed with big boobies, my back hurts enough as it is...aging does that to people ~sigh~

Message edited on: 07/03/2005 20:57

Let's dwell on the small heads for now, to get this topic out of any possible fantasy area. Why are the heads so small? Is small-headedness a fantasy for some artists, too?

Or is it that the Poser modelers have been making stock figures that way for so long that many digital artists take it as the norm? Small heads are sometimes used on male figures to make them "heroic"; they have no application whatsoever on females.

Please support the Society for Normal Sized Heads on Poser Figures, SNSHPF in your renders. No donations are required or accepted. All it takes is a little twist of a dial.

maxxxmodelz- If you read the story you would know. ;-)

Message edited on: 07/03/2005 21:20

Ah, come on, James... You know that head size is more or less standard across humans. Example, the canon says 1 body = 8 heads inclusive for the ideal. Most people, however, tend to come in at 7.5 heads, and Sly Stallone, being a short ass like me, comes in at around 7 heads, which makes his napper look somewhat large. V3 - while not exactly the canon - her navel being totally out of place for a human - ain't all that far off. BTW, did you know that the current theory about human size is 6'6" for male, 6' 2" for female? Bearing in mind that most of this is in the long bones, heads would look quite a bit smaller by compsrison. BTW, women generally have proptionally smaller heads but the canon usually works unless the figure you're drawing is unusually small.

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Jim, did you know that by simply replacing the J with a T, your name suddenly becomes synonymous with that of a famous director who also seems to fancy things with big heads and petite bodies? 8) That's not an insult, by the way, because I happen to love that director! I did a double-take on your name though, because I thought it was his for a moment. You're not him, are you? heh.

When I saw the title, I thought, 'A Harlan reference? It's gotta be a thinker thread.' Instead, this. Do you have control issues? Then direct them toward something that matters. It's a tired subject. Artsy types do what they do. If you like it, enjoy; if you don't, move on. Who cares? Why should anyone? No offense; just my 2 cents.

Why are the heads so small? Is small-headedness a fantasy for some artists, too?

Sort of. I think that's just American (perhaps Western in general?) artistic convention. We tend to idealize tall people. The average American woman may be 5'-4", but the average fashion model is much taller. Tall = beautiful. And tall people have relatively small heads compared to their bodies.

This is something that many people, even many artists, don't really notice. It's one of our stylistic tics. We can easily see the stylistic tics of other times/cultures. The almost unisex look of the Egyptian ideal, the highly exaggerated look of a kabuki play or a Mayan carving. But our own stylistic tics are somewhat invisible to us. We know that the girl next door is not a 6' foot tall Amazon pinhead. But in art, that's usually what we see. The models in ads are taller than normal, and wear high-heels to boot. The standard in fashion illustration, comic books, etc., is really tall with especially long legs - and a relatively small head.

People blame DAZ for making pinhead figures that have "brainwashed" Poser users. IMO, it's the opposite. Our whole culture is so used to elongated figures in our art that if DAZ really made Vicky an average woman, she'd be rejected as too weird-looking. Message edited on: 07/03/2005 22:15

Okay, posts like this drive me nuts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that is all it is after all, an opinion. And such, in my opinion: There is no "right" or "wrong" way of doing a figure. There is no "right" or "wrong" way of doing any kind of art. That's the point. Skinny, fat, tall, short, huge privates or small, WHO CARES! It's about what the ARTIST wishes to portray, and that may not be absolute "realism". Everyone has their own notions of beauty and art, and none is more correct than anyone else's. I for one would find it pretty boring if everyone's artwork had to conform to a set of "rules" on "realistic" figure design.

I'm afraid I haven't seen very many stick thin women. I've seen even few with extremely large breasts. Most women with extremely large breasts come with extremely large rumps to go with them. As far as men go. I've only got one to go by and he seems to be above average in certain areas and will kill me for saying this.

I measure V3 to be 8 1/2 heads high, or putting it another way, her head is 6 1/4% undersize for an 8 heads-high figure, 13 1/4% undersize for a 7 1/2 head high figure. The later is probbaly closer to "normal" height, anyway.

And when extra height is added to femals, for artistic effect, it is usally put in the legs. V3 has her's in the torso.

M3, on the other hand, is 7 3/4 heads high, SP is 7 1/2. Ingenue Vickie, who is about 85% of V3's size, uses V3's head full size, petite figures generally have proportionally bigger heads (as do children), so it is just about correct for her. SNSHPF finds all 3 of these figures acceptable. ;-)

Message edited on: 07/03/2005 22:30

now isn't this the pot calling the kettle black! Looks like there is enough room for everybody as huge boobs sell products and anorexic 13 year old girls sells products.

It never hurts to change a characters proportions and no one ever agrees on just one thing. More people should know some merchants even change head size to accommodate a figures intended probortions and stature. :)

For those new to the issue...

http://painting.about.com/library/blpaint/blfigureclass1.htm

http://www.worsleyschool.net/socialarts/body/proportions.html

Yup I some times find default V1-V3s can look odd in the head size department to...

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

I think I know why the modelers make the heads so small. So many poser users have never learned how to change the focal settings on the camera to get rid of that fisheye lens effect. So, to compensate for this and make the heads appear normal, the modelers make them smaller than actual size so that they won't look as weird when rendered with the camera at the 38mm default. OR I could just be full of it. :D Kate

yup..I think it's an anthology of short stories, if'n I recollect correctly..;)
RE: the 'size' issue
Isn't that what the 'scale' dials are for?..;)
Of course, most of the clothes for these tend to fit the 'Soviet Hero Mother'-sized chests in question..where the Wardrobe Wizard, Tailor, etc., come in..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

" now isn't this the pot calling the kettle black! Looks like there is enough room for everybody as huge boobs sell products and anorexic 13 year old girls sells products." Thank you!! I want to Scream everytime I see a skinny, Pale hopelessly caucasian FLAT ASSED pubescent poser blondie standing in front of an oval mirror!!! but if that is some* peoples fantasy Ideal of a woman then so be it and i would never try and tell them they are "wrong to create such images sheeshhh!!! I believe we have a photography gallery here at rosity and decent digital Cameras are very reasonably priced these days. So may i suggest that the Realism Gestapo go to thier local parks/malls etc. and photograph all the short,fat, bald,wrinked etc people you can find and post them in the photography gallery and pontificate self righteously amongst yourselves about how you "keep it real" alot art is about expression of fantasy. Get over it :-)

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What if the 'artist' never intended for his work to be realistic? Are there limits in fantasyland? LOL.

The only thing that sort of bugs me, is seeing lots of characters in the MP of caucasian woman with no bridge on their nose... just a flat childish nose. why do they do that?? I can look past the exagerrated lips and impossible breasts. Why oh why don't they give their gals a decent profile? anyhoo... I never buy character sets, but i do browse the MP from time to time, and there are a plethora of 'no nosed, huge lipped, massive bra shapped boobed' V3's out there... Each to their own I suppose, its part of the reason I am so hesitant in releasing my V3 tex/charater set (see pic), she doesn't have those features listed above... She has a NOSE!! *shock horror* teehee well, enough of my pre-caffine-rant -S- **i'm not that bothered by this nasal thing as it may sound, LOL... but since we were airing our peeves, i thought i'd get it of my (humble 34d) chest - now its Cup of Tea time!!! ;)

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I don't give a rat's ass what real people look like. If I want to see real, ordinary people I go out on the street. Or look at my wide and kids. Poser is something else entirely for me, a fantasy world where I can (and everyone else can) create anyone with any appearance. Whether the characters I create look realistic is TOTALLY irrelevant. So why should anyone here care whether Poser tits or dicks or butts are 'realistic'? Come off it! If 'real' is the measure of things, we can forget all beasts, superheroes, mythology, scifi and everything else except ordinary people in ordinary clothes going to an ordinary job on an ordinary day, having ordinary arguments at the kitchen table or getting ordinarily beat up at school. Why should I or anyone else in the Poser world accept such a limitation because some jerks here at Rosity snort derisively at big tits, big muscles, sexy clothes, wild flights of fantasy, NVIATWS - or anything else they have decided not to approve of? If you don't like it, look at another image. If you want real, go out on the street or go look at your wife/husband/dog/house. Okay? This applies to neo-ultra-idiot-American conservatives, all other religious zealots, feminists, political activists, patriots, chauvinists, etc etc. Anyone who wants to decide for others, who thinks they 'know best'. I have NO patience with any such tendencies in ANYONE. And it doesn't apply to you specifically at all, Jim - I'm writing a generic text here that I will be using in the future for all such threads. There's at least 5 of these threads every week. Posts with "Just waiting for her to fall over, snark snark" and similar idiocy. Or posts that DEMAND overweight women in Poser since American women on average (and Europeans, but less so) are wayyy bigger than they should be, healthwise. Like that's got to be a norm of some sort for us all, lol. However, I do certainly agree with your view on the tiny Poser figure heads - that is the fault of the modelers who got the proportions wrong and have created a norm that most Poser users are not even aware of. I always scale up my characters' heads to 110% or more to get them to look at least reasonable. :] Fish - been here way too long, totally sick and tired of it

Ooh what a gorgeous nose Xianah... yumm! ;o) :] Fish

Druuna good. Pin-head girls bad. :)

I'd post the .net to the official Druuna page but...

(Tip toes away...)

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

Druuna VERY good ;o) Drop dead gorgeous in fact! :] Fish

Here is an example of a bunny that does not need an ample bosom to stand out in a crowd. This is Jim Burton's Glamorous Jessi with no breast morphs. Mark this on your calandar folks, lululee posts an image of a lady without her usual pumped up bowl me over voluptuous look. GJ is just so cute and her body is a dream to work with and bends so smoothly. I dressed her up in some bodygloves and textures and call her Bunny Candy. I do like her slender body shape. cheerio lululee

Jim, you said ads on TV, My junk mail comes everyday with Male enchant products, female blow up Hooters, and the same email Addy site sends out meet young Christan people to date in your area. My area is the country, Maybe they are talking about Cows. I don't care what people post, what is one persons Art is someone Else garbage. My pet peeve is talking politics, religion, and the image hasn't got one damn thing to go with it.

Love is Grandchildren.

Hey lululee, she looks great! I actully have no problem with the big breasts, I just put that part in to stir up the pot. ;-) I do have a problem with the small heads though, and I just hope somewhere, sometime, some Poser figure will be saved from a too small head when the creator thinks back to this thread. If you want a small head in your render fine, but think what you are doing, default size can be changed, after all.

Where can one find this Glamorous Jessi?

Attached Link: http://www.project-human.com/

Jim, you have a lot of interesting ideas. Perhaps some of your talents could be used to provide some support for Sixus1's Project Human figures. The figures are open source so you could rework them any way you wanted to and then distribute them for either the market or freestuff as long as the license stating Les was the originator was still attached.

Awhile back I created a Pinup package. I used for reference, books on 30s and 40s pinup art. This is what they thought was the ideal at the time.

You notice that in the 30s and 40s the proportions weren't anywhere near that of V3 or glamorous V.

Message edited on: 07/04/2005 10:42

I think Rendererosity should hold a beauty contest. Ill put Taffy up against glamorous whatever any day.

I don't have time at the moment to read beyond the first post in this thread. I'll have to come back to it later. But in reply to Jim's first post- Amen!

Gee, it's like some of you have never read an issue of Heavy Metal magazine before. Oversized tits, on small bodies, with small head are the norm in that mag. Of course it's just a male comicbook/fantasy magazine. Oh could it be I just hit the nail on the head, so to speak? Yeah I think I might have. I could see complaining about the size of a poser chicks head and tits, in say a shot that was meant for a serious office promotion or an image that was meant to represent 'normal' stuff, but 95% of the gallery here and most anywhere else is people making pretty pictures about stuff that isn't real, IE: Pin-ups, chicks with swords and blasters. Frankly I don't feel like fantasizing about some 350 lbs heffer battling the millenium dragon. Nor do I feel like creating an image with some skinny assed runway look alike model 'cause the strung out on heroin look doesn't do it for me. However if that is what you like to do go for it, 'cause who the hell am I to bitch about your fantasies? What some of ya need to do is concentrate on what youlike to do with poser and stop acting like others are wrong because they don't do it the same way you do.

Cool discussion! For realism I use a camera. For art, I use my unlimited imagination to create ANY image I want! Works for me.....

This is too funny. I've taken several life drawing classes and it's the same thing. People (men and women) tend to draw the breasts bigger as well as the penis. During one class we took a trip down to the sculpture lab where they were doing small sculptures of our model male model. As soon as I looked at some the womens sculptures I turned to my friend Janie and said "that aint Keith." She said, "I know, he's much smaller than that." hahaha! So it's not only in the digital world.

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yup..I think it's an anthology of short stories, if'n I recollect correctly..;) Sort of. It was originally a short story by Harlan Ellison (a Hugo-award-winning one if I remember right). Though I obviously don't remember all the details, it was, sometime later, adapted to comic format (in 'Heavy Metal'?)and (I think) used as a title for a collection of short stories ... and I don't know what else.

I don't think anyone disagrees that everyone is entitled to free expression. In some genres, people with impossible body shapes are somewhat convention. Fantasy and superhero are two such genres. I won't say it's necessarily great- it just kills me that the Justice League cartoon has great writing and voice acting, but the art hurts my eyes- I mean, Wonder Woman looks like she could snap like a twig. But at least in those genres, there is no pretext of realism. Erotica is another genre in which there is no pretext of realism, and people use it to express their sexual fantasies and I won't criticize that. What bothers me is when these impossible bodies are presented as examples of realistic ideas. When people are deluged with these images on television, billboards, posters, the internet, magazines- really everywhere- they start accepting it. This contributes to people wasting time, money, and health to attempt to meet the ideas, or otherwise to their low self-esteem. And then children, who quite naturally want to emulate adults, pick these images up and accept them far easier. Clothes once limited to streetwalkers are now made in little girls' sizes. It's no wonder that the average age of puberty onset for girls is plummeting. I think a lot of artists don't even realize that they are contributing to this imagery. Many start by copying what they like- so if they follow the cue of what they commonly see as standard, then they adopt impossible body images as normal and average. And that's how I started with Poser, blindly accepting at first that Victoria and Michael were average at base. It's when I started trying to clone people I knew that I discovered how wrong that was. I don't necessarily agree that sex sells as a rule. There was, last year I think, a Dove campaign which explicitly used 'real women' instead of models. A lot of women on a forum in which I participate almost uniformly praised the campaign and wondered why there weren't more ad campaigns like it. Artists will create what they want to create, and the impossible body images are not always inappropriate as a blanket rule. But it's important to at least be aware of what we are doing when we create. And those who agree with me should do something about it- like stop spending so much time making Victoria sexy and more time helping other models look real.

Skinny arse fems have no use for me in nviatwas piccy's, they can't even hold up a decent sword.

btw I scaled Vickie's head to 105%
I kinda agree with Jim about the small head thing.

:oP

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Ditto Fishnose. Granted some of the images are grossly exagerated, but they are images.

For th rest of you - Please pay attention to the following.
Sit down if you must.
The following statement may cause shock, awe and disbelief.

The digital models used in Poser are not alive, do not have feelings, backaches, keel-over, or fall face down if the geometry of the mesh is extended, stretched or morphed. (unless the user makes it so)

If you don't want to take the pills as proscribed by the shrink, then do the exercise and take the vitamins as Tom suggests!

Message edited on: 07/04/2005 15:13

Message edited on: 07/04/2005 15:14

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

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And they have no (real) mouth, and they must scream! ;-) Which is where I came in...

And they have no (real) mouth, and they must scream! ;-) Nonsense. The ones that have huge muscles or huge anti-gravity breasts and/or tiny heads are very proud of them, and those who do not have them are very proud of that. No screaming whatsoever... except for that annoying racket coming out of Jim ... ;*) And I am speaking for the tiny-headed people everywhere! Tiny-headed people unite against these unjust aspersions against us!

Grey_Cat, she's beautiful. She does have a very classic look.

;-)

Maybe it's because a lot of ppl treat Poser figures like Barbie dolls that they like to play with rendering or that a lot of budding artists have been heavily influenced by what they've seen Boris Vallejo do, that there are so many NVITWAS in the galleries, but there seems to be a lot of everything in the galleries, it's what you want to focus on that makes things stand out. Reubens had an interest in cetain types of women and did a lot of paintings of those, that didn't make them more or less relevant than other types it's just what he had a feel for. Well done NVITWAS have theirs also and the ones that aren't so well done are part of the learning process for artists to practice on to improve.

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Reubens had an interest in cetain types of women and did a lot of paintings of those It wasn't just Reubens, although he's the best known for it, because he used his young, plump, attractive wife as a model a great deal in his later work. However, the plump, pink, dimpled women were the ideal of the day. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

ROFL Jim! That guy's other head is probably bigger ;o) S'funny, actually.... one of the most beautiful and captivating girls I have met in recent years has a very, very small head. Wayyy out of proportion to her body. And also she is very well developed indeed. Natural D-cup on a beautiful and slender figure. And natural blonde (Swedish) but right now she's dyed dark reddish. Which looks great with the piercing blue eyes. But on her, the little head works.... somehow, lol. Although I must admit I get this almost irresistible urge to scale up her head by 15% or so! :] Fish

I scale my V3 head to 108% and increase X as well. Even then I still think the head is a little too small. So I agree totally with Jim. Love esther

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***What bothers me is when these impossible bodies are presented as examples of realistic ideas. When people are deluged with these images on television, billboards, posters, the internet, magazines- really everywhere- they start accepting it. This contributes to people wasting time, money, and health to attempt to meet the ideas, or otherwise to their low self-esteem.*** Not everyone can be as perfectly proportioned as Meredith Wilson, so isn't self-esteem something everyone has to determine for themselves? (hence the self part of the term) The deluge of images are usually trying to sell products like cosmetics and other consumables. It's only the ppl that fall into the trap of believing the illusion they present and take the impossible for real. Fantasy images are quite a different matter since how many could actually emulate the heroic proportions of most superheros? They're usually role models for their deeds and principles not for the realism of their bodies so I wouldn't go looking to emulate them for those.

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isn't self-esteem something everyone has to determine for themselves? And not everyone bases their value as a person on the size of their boobs. ;-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

"Clothes once limited to streetwalkers are now made in little girls' sizes. It's no wonder that the average age of puberty onset for girls is plummeting." I don't think you can blame the fashion industry on that one. Good nutrition is the major culprit. Girls aren't the only ones who are hitting puberty earlier either, and once the hormones kick in, they start morphing into adults despite the comfort levels of the adults around them.

And not everyone bases their value as a person on the size of their boobs. ;-) does my Yoda impression And well they should not! That's why I always find it strange when you hear about kinds of things like eating disorders and such in teenagers. Couldn't they figure out what kind of distortions and illusions they're basing the ideas on? The modeling industry is a bit more understandable since the pressure to sell the illusion they want to use for the products is probably pretty high and the things they had to do to comform to those illusions to get the work done must be fairly difficult.

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Folks... arent you thinking too much? ;) There are so many sizes as people... (Im a sci-fi nerd, I love the title)

CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

I think there is a lot of psychological and sociological support for the idea that self-image isn't controlled merely by logic. It's easy to say I should be happy with who I am, but it's harder to feel it, and it's even harder to keep feeling it when the world around you is telling you that you're wrong.

It's easy to say I should be happy with who I am, but it's harder to feel it, and it's even harder to keep feeling it when the world around you is telling you that you're wrong. Hear, hear! Now, everyone quit bitching about my pinhead! I'm sensitive enough about it! ;-P bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

My personal taste leans strongly towards more realistic-appearing characters.

BUT: I am in favor of Poser characters looking like whatever the artist wants them to look like.

In the meantime, I'll simply avoid images that don't interest me.

Jim Burton's characters do interest me.

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This is what they thought was the ideal at the time. There's three important words there: "at the time". Oh, and another one: "they". "At the time" and "they" are rather variable when it comes to determining what is attractive (in men and women). To use an example currently in the news, I know people who thought Lindsay Lohan's change into blonde crack-whore mode was highly attractive because blondes are better and women who look like they've just completed the Buchenwald weight-loss program are attractive. Some, however, were disgusted (as you can tell, I am one). On the other hand, I'm one of the guys who would have NVIATWAS showing perhaps a bit more muscle than would be the tandard societal norm. Some people don't like that, and I can understand it. So trying to pick what's an ideal is a fool's game.

Agreed on the lindsay lohan thing........ DAMN!!!! .......what a freakin waste!!!!

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Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=807961

I didn't realize how small Vickie's head was till I decided to do a takeoff of one of my favorite cheesecake images, the Raquel Welch poster for the movie "One Million Years BC". I think I had to make the head 25% larger than the standard Vickie. I had to shrink the length of the torso and plump Vickie up with a mix of the pear shaped figure and muscles. There weren't any breast morphs that would allow the correct proportions and I gave up trying to achieve a resemblance to Raquel's face. It was interesting seeing how differently proportioned one of the sexiest stars from the sixties is compared against Victoria. If you think Vickie has no mouth, how about Japanese anime characters with mouths smaller than the iris of their eyes?

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

There was (is?) a virtual Raquel, floating out there somewheres....

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

When I started reading this thread, I immediately thought of one issue of an online comic I follow. The guy with the crystal ball in front of him, and an extremely large breasted woman across the table from him. His says,"All I see in your future is lower back problems." Haven't seen many that size in my neck of the woods ...