There's an elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. Maybe this is because it's been talked about so many times before, but I'll do it again anyway... In my opinion, the hot 20 has taken a backwards slide in the last while. With a few exceptions, most of the images that show up there are not that good. In fact, some of them are terrible. I'm sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes. This is just my opinion for what it's worth. I don't know. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I don't know a good image from a not so good one, or maybe everyone else has different tastes than I do. I'm thinking that the more experienced artists, or at least the ones with the same tastes as I have, aren't pushing the vote button anymore. I know that I am not, but now that I think of it I am doing myself a disservice. Like it or not, the hot 20 is one window into the fractal community. Right now when you look through it, with a few exceptions, it's not that great of a view. One solution is to push the freaking button. Just leave off the V because that's part of the problem. We have talked about the V many times before, but just in case you weren't there the V implies vote exchanging and that makes for an ugly hot 20. Let's fix the hot 20. Get out and V - without the V And yes, I know, this topic has been talked about over and over again. Let me get the bitching about the topic out of the way right up front: This topic sucks. I am so tired of it, blah, blah, blah... There, now you don't have to do it. If you don't like the topic, click out. Otherwise offer a better solution or start voting for your favorite images. If voting continues to not work then let's get rid of hot 20. It does more harm than good if it continues the way that it is. It feeds unhealthy obsessions and it reflects poorly on the community, with a few exceptions. If it continues to not work, kill it. Or maybe it is working like it is supposed to and I don't know what I am talking about. Obviously there are 19 or 20 people who believe that. Keith

oh dear, i wouldn't worry about it much, Keith, if i were you, nothing is perfect in any gallery annex community the hot listing is purely for enjoyment, i wouldnt put any value to it much, an outsider wouldnt take that seriously either, if you look at the quality of the various designs displayed there its neither everywhere advertised, it doesn't make the face of the gallery so all efforts to make it stop excisting is a waste too so let it be, my friend smile good day Harmen

Good words Keith! The ONLY way it can possibly work more accurately, is if more people click the vote button, AND if it is done ANONYMOUSLY. Officially...the Hot 20 is going to remain for awhile as it is. But it CAN work, with more voting. It CAN work, if WE make it work :D As Keith said: "Get out and V - without the V" Nick

Nick C. Sorbin
Staff Writer
Renderosity Magazine
......................................................................................................
"For every breath, for every day of living, this is my Thanksgiving."
-Don Henley

I think that it really gives a false impression for the newbies or for anyone just browsing that this is "THE HOT 20" and the best of the fractal gallery! I depend on the Fractal Window Weekly more than the HOT 20, sometimes I look just for the hell of it, I usually get a laugh or 2 from some of them, I know they can do better than that!!!

Oh, I agree it gives a false impression. That's why it is so important to get more people voting, AND doing it anonymously. Just a click of a button...only takes a second... come on...yer friends can't see ya ;)

Well, it isn't possible to vote if you are directly in the H20. And it may not be possible to vote from the ebot email link too. IMO only someone should have the right to vote who scrolls through the thumbs to correct this FALSE IMPRESSION. Thanks, Keith for not resignating. ulli

I really gave up looking at the Fractal Hot20. And the V in the comments is IMO disgusting. Just a Voting trade.
I sometimes look at the Hot20 of other galleries to get an impression what I might have missed when I didn't visit the gallery for a while. And I know that Apo people are impressed by Apo images. Therefore a lot of Apo images is in the Hot20. But I must admit that most of the feathers floating in the dark are no longer impressive in any way for me...

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

Hey Andreas! I just looked through your fav. artists and your fav. images, very impressive!!! Maybe you should choose the HOT 20. I would love to show up on your fav. artist or image list. It seems that you really can pick some excellent winners, you have a great eye for beauty, my friend!!!

Gotta agree with you 100% Keith - and just to make myself even more unpopular than I already am I think the voting in the monthly themed challenge is ridiculous too. Sorry, I don't mean to upset the winners - sometimes they deserve to win - but certainly not always!

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

What I find most disconcerting about the Hot20 (lately, and with a few exceptions) is that it misrepresents the Fractal Gallery in a punitive way. I know nothing about, say, 3D Studio Max or Cinema 4D... but I greatly admire the resulting images from those programs in the hands of the talented. So I cruise through the Hot20 in those galleries to get an idea of the cream of the crop. And it seems to me that I'm seeing just that. There is precious little coddling, even between good friends, in those galleries and the constructive criticism that shapes the comment section is enlightening and informative... even to someone like myself who has no idea what's being suggested. It is rather evident that votes in those galleries are witheld unless and until a certain criteria is met. That criteria being a well-executed representation of what the software is capable of producing in the hands of the seriously motivated.

I'll admit that the comments I offer under gallery images are few and far between and I apologize up front for that. But I do exercise my voting priveledges when I view an image that deserves recognition. If an image is truly exceptional (in my humble opinion) I make a note for myself to go back the next day and vote for it again... and again the day after that. It's a bit disheartening, though, to realize that there is a voting blitz (a kind of round robin, if you will) going on en masse... and my particular choices seem to disappear in the dust.

If, as Harmen suggests, the Hot20 is purely for enjoyment, perhaps it should be called the Fun20... thereby representing the lighter side of fractal manipulation. I am not an artist, I'm simply a fractal enthusiast ... but I feel that the Hot20 cannot hope to inspire much enthusiasm in those who visit with the expectation of gazing upon the "hottest" creative interpretations using the latest and greatest fractal software.

I will continue to vote without the V and hope that one day the Hot20 will, once again, live up to its name. :)

Great pleading, Helen. It burns under my fingernails, Andreas: It are not the "Apo-people" that vote "Apo-images" into the H20. IMO most people who vote care about the ego of their friends or voting partners, not if they produce flames or fractals, if it are good or bad creations, old fashioned or innovative. Once I saw an artist saying "Please don't vote for me anymore that way". Maybe people who occupy the H20 get so bored with these meaningless IVU so YVME that they tell their fans the same "to get the H20 more accurate". ulli

Like Harmen said, it's all for fun (dude, I am actually agreeing with Harmen :)). I am enjoying the community aspects of this place more and more. The themed challange was fun to do and watch. I just wish that there was a better balance between the friends and fun, and great art. I like this place and I want to see it continue to improve. There really is great art in the fractal gallery. Everyone is getting better and better. The H20 should show what we as a community believe to be the latest and greatest. That's why I am disappointed when the H20 is dominated by just a few, no matter what they post. Keith

One of the problems with the fractals is that there are so many programs and postwork to consider. Most of the other Forums that are software specific use their forums to do critiques and tutorials for their members to learn from. Their challenges are constructed around aspects of the software, so that people can improve their lighting, or their atmosphere, etc. In those forums, people put their works in progress in threads and ask for help...and other members are very critical, teaching how to improve the image. That would be so difficult here, but I suppose it could be done. I know we have lots of UF and Apo users, but some of the other software might have trouble getting help. My $.02 PS...It's interesting to see that many who are in the Hot20 don't even know we have a forum!

Fractals will always amaze me!

I don't really have something to add, just wanted to let you know I've read this thread (and previous threads about the Hot20) and I too think it's a problem. The Hot20 doesn't represent the top segment of the artists in our community. Of course there are exceptions: todays Hot20 shows more diversity than it has done in weeks (or maybe even months). If I want to see a selection of interesting, well-constructed, appealing, in short: artistic fractals I'll watch the window weekly and the vintage. But what to do? Sure I vote and have done but only if an image has a high WOW-voltage. Maybe I should lower my standards to medium WOW-voltage? ;-) Yvonne

The Hot 20 obviously reflects what those who are voting seem to like... if you'd like to see something different there, go vote for it then... It's not really that hard a concept to understand. If you don't vote, you gotta put up with what others have "selected" for you. Simple enough, isn't it? Quite frankly I'm a little put off by the obviously "elitist" attitude here... some people really need to just get over themselves. Can some of you remember back to the first time you saw one of your works in the Hot 20, or something similar? How did you feel? Didn't it encourage you to go and create more images, and try for even better ones? Saying that the current Hot 20 is full of images that "aren't worthy" is being incredibly rude as far as I see it. Those people have created and submitted their works for a very large audience to scrutinise - that takes a heck of a lot of guts... and for any of us to pooh-pooh their efforts is just appalling behaviour. If you want to see something different in the Hot 20 - get off your high horse, and go vote for what YOU like! Sheesh! This topic is so petty that it hurts! T.

Who? Me?

Wow. You need to calm down and think about what you are saying. So many times above in this thread people have said exactly what you just did about voting. It's like what has been said about apathy in a democracy: you get the government you deserve. Not particularly profound but true nonetheless. The valid (IMO) complaint here is the 'doctoring' of the voting by the obvious vote trading behavior some people do. It's a bit like special interest groups taking advantage of average voter turnouts and hijacking an election. You seem to be saying, "well that's the way it works so stop complaining." And I would say back to you, "well that's not what an art society should be about." If you want to let off steam then go kick a fence post. Don't scold people who are only getting involved in a valid discussion. That is indeed the only appalling behavior here. Tim

I'm sorry but I must say that Deagol has read my mind and posted my thoughts exactly. Long standing problem has worsened and I DO vote silently and not once recently (last month or so) have I seen anything I voted for appear in the H20. To H20 a randomly generated squiggle (apo) with a nice frame is ridiculous and I've seen it done more than once. Come on now...I DO know what I'm talking about as far as apo.

Dunno -- I haven't actually looked at the hot-20 in about forever. Prompted by this thread I wanted to look at them right now and actually had to search around for a link to it. It seems that it's really not worth actively seeking out something you don't like. I can see the frustration when the top of the H20 is an insanely primitive thing that any monkey could've done with UF. But then again, I look at the people who comment on those images and I can't help but assume they're from some completely different place -- not fractal folks at all. Really, I'd simply ignore that stuff. It's not good for anything, so why bother with it? Let those who have fun with it have fun with it. What skin is it of my nose?

Maybe I didn't phrase myself effectively in my previous post... My point was aimed at those who basically denigrated the efforts of those who have recently been shown in the Hot 20... and that is what I find extremely rude. Me? I don't vote on any works displayed here, except for ones in the challenges - they are actively participating in a contest, and voting is the only way to decide a "winner" of said challenge - which normally has some theme or rules for the images to conform to. What I may like as far as everything else goes may be far different from what others like - and who am I to say that my opinion is any more or less valid than the next person's? Like I said before - if you want to see more works of your own preference in the Hot 20 - go bloody well vote for them then! All this inference of "vote swapping" and "collusion" is just childish as far as I'm concerned... and it just shines those complaining about it in a bad light. Some of you come across as being so egotistical and pious that it hurts. I say again - get off your high horses and go vote for those images that YOU want to see in the Hot 20 if you really care that much about such a "popularity" contest... T.

Who? Me?

I have this brilliant idea - a bit radical - but nevertheless brilliant(lol)! Since the Hot20 has caused so much dissention for such a long time why not GET RID OF IT! We already have contests for the competitive amongst us (presumably Apo Tweak Fest is going to be replaced with something eventually) - we don't need a popularity contest which panders to the already inflated egos of those who get in - and annoys the hell out of those who do not.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

At deviantart the top 5 weekly images are based solely on the number of favorites that were given to it. You want an image to be in the top 5, it's a direct reflection of your taste towards the image. People can go to your your favorites and see what kind of art you place in your favorites. I'm willing to bet that if it was ran like that here for the top 20, it would have different results because people couldn't hide behind anonymous voting. What eventually happens is the people with the biggest following usually get the top spots. People get the biggest following by being the best in their field. Sometimes one of the top 5 images is also from a rookie that happens to make a great image and it gets enough well deserved attention to put it on top. Yeah, sometimes people are also in the top because of nothing but popularity, but not all the time. Nothings perfect but it works better than this "you vote for me, I'll vote for you" routine.

My opinion of the Hot 20... Thanks to Odie for the pic. Matt.

Matt, Has Odie been eating leftovers? I was wondering where you were. Your "experiment" with the hot 20 some time ago was a classic. In fact, as I recall, you've done more than one. In your other test you proved that comment swapping does occur. I've thought about using you as history lesson. A couple of years ago you were at the top of the popularity contest - artist of the month. Then you did some things that pissed off a lot of us and you fell from our good graces. You're still one of the better artists here, but you'll never see the hot 20 because you don't play the game. These are just the facts... Thanks for coming to the surface. Keith

Matt... hey... :) Is Odie an elephant or is this a macro shot? Damn fine photography, at any rate. We're like Motel 6... we'll leave the light on for you.

Now this is getting petty and petulant... egos are coming to the fore here and it's really quite disgusting. Does the Hot 20 really mean THAT much in the grand scheme of things? Do some of you truly believe that you are the only people who produce works worthy of inclusion in this area? Is this place becoming so "elitist" and totally non-tolerant of anything that isn't to your particular taste? But of course, YOU wouldn't deign to actally vote for anything, that would be beneath you... Grow up and get off your high horses before you fall off them people! Personally, I don't see anything wrong with ANY of the works in the Hot 20 - they all have their own "something" that makes thm just as "worthy" as the next image as far as I can see... If you think that the voting system is a popularity contest, I don't think some of you have scored any such points here... lol! T.

Who? Me?

Tracey, would you answer this question please. Do you honestly believe the Hot 20 is truely representative of the best of fractal art at Renderosity? Tim

Tim, I believe that the Hot 20 represents what those who vote think is great - nothing more, nothing less... and I really can't see anything at all "wrong" with those images either. Whether it's a "popularity contest" issue or not doesn't bother me one iota. If I'm after something a little more solid, I'll go for the images with the most views and/or most comments and then judge whatever I like from there. Maybe I'll even comment if an image moves me enough... mostly, I don't even look at the galleries... I like looking at the Weekly Window, and the Archive Window - some of those images don't necessarily move me either - but I would never be so rude as to suggest that someone else's work is not worthy of whatever representation it has gained. Let's take YOUR works as an example, Tim - seeing as you wanted a definite answer... some of your work I find simply stunning and totally awesome, and some of your work doesn't do anything for me in the slightest... does that give me the right to denigrate those of your works that I don't like? I don't think so... *(directed at CriminallyInsane) As for posting an image of effluent and comparing other people's work to it without backing that position up with valid reasons is just plain disgusting behaviour! What gives YOU the right to be so condescending? I don't necessarily like YOUR work either mate - but you won't catch me comparing it to something like that! T.

Who? Me?

Hmmm...Maybe you should find out if my above comment and image is aimed at the Hot 20 'images' or the Hot 20 'structure' before you start judging me... Matt.

Nice backpedal there mate... lol! Maybe you should be a little more informative in your text desription of said post then... because it certainly looks like you are comparing the whole Hot 20 to a pile of excrement - both the images and the structure. Would you care to rectify that now by explaining exactly what makes you think that the Hot 20 is like a pile of excrement? T.

Who? Me?

I don't see the point you all are making - if one doesn't like the top - DON"T look - seem easy to me - don't get it :!: :!: H

So let me get this right.

I'm in the wrong because I supposedly attacked peoples art?

But you are right because you attack their character?

Ok, I think I understand now...

Matt.

Message edited on: 07/10/2005 03:54

Hahaha - yet again - nice repartee... but little real substance to explain your previous posting... I am not attacking anyone's character - I am questioning the attitude and reasoning behind the comments made about the topic at hand here. I took your posting an image of a pile of excrement as an example of behaviour unbecoming - no matter what you may have meant, and Tim's gallery as an example of what does or doesn't work for me as far as "art" is concerned. If you still cannot back up your previous posting with a fact or two, then how do you expect me (or others) to know exactly what you meant by posting it? The current post is ambiguous at best - if you meant the structure of the Hot 20, then why did you not state that in the post? I and others can read it as being your opinion of the work, not the structure... and that is what I find appalling behaviour. If you think that by my stating my opinion is a character assassination - then you might want to go back and read this whole thread in it's entirety, and take everything in the context that it appears. Then maybe come back and back up your argument with a few facts and reasoning...? T.

Who? Me?

Oh, stop it, all of you - this childish bickering is achieving nothing and it's certainly not funny any more. If the Hot20 brings out this bitchyness in people it certainly adds more weight to my argument that we don't need it and it should go!

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

Well met Mags... the voice of reason as always... You have to admit that a bit of honest repartee can't hurt sometimes though... hehe! I'm sure that people can have strong opposing opinions and can state them in a civilised manner - and that is all I'm looking for here... Doesn't anyone here think that the posting of an image of excrement maybe went a little far? T.

Who? Me?

He-- yes way over the top . H

I just wanted encourage everyone to vote on the images that they like. I made an assumption that a few of us had stopped voting, like I have, and I wanted to encourage us to vote. The friendly voting and comment swapping will never go away because it's part of our nature, so I wouldn't expect that to change. Just vote. On a slightly different topic. I have said this before... everyone is invited to tell me what you really think about any image in my gallery. If you don't like what you see, please say so. I have no problem with hearing your honest opinion about what I do. I would love to know what impresses you and what doesn't. The thing is, fractals ARE abstract art. They bring out different emotional responses in us by their nature. I would like to know what your response is, even if it isn't great. I would like to think that I have the same permission to tell you what I really think of your art, but I know that I don't, except for a few.

IF THEY Can't take the heat don't post !!!!! H

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1825189

Lets revisit an older H20 discussion.On the lighter side and good for a grin or 5, lets??? Heyyy Keith!!Over time I've come to enjoy your ego!! :P ;) :)) Hehe. And I must also add that Matt never fails to make me laugh no matter how "over the top" he goes.

Boy, this discussion has really turned into to a waste of time. I think the image posted is in bad taste. I think the tone of some of the posts is way too emotional.

OK - I'll apologise for ruffling any feathers with my postings in this thread... but I won't apologise for having the opinion that some people display an elitist attitude around here. It really rankles me when I see what appears to be snobbery and petulance when someone obviously hasn't received the attention to their work that they were expecting. I have a whole 2 fractal images in the gallery here. I have no idea if they ever made the Hot 20 because I don't care whether they made it there or not. I thought they were good enough to share here - but that is just my opinion of my own work. Other people might think that my 2 fractal images suck , and they are entitled to that opinion... no skin off my nose... lol! I also have over 1000 images in my own personally hosted gallery - so it's not due to inactivity that I don't post my images here very often... not bad numbers when you consider that I've only been fractalling since the end of February this year... lol! If you'd like to peruse my personal gallery and let me know if my work sucks (hehe!) follow the bouncing ball to http://www.woosie.net/gallery/index.php - and feel free to let me know what you think... T.

Who? Me?

Hi all! We are going to make changes to the system. Just not right now. In the meantime, why not try and do a little experiment, to see if with some action we can make it at least a bit better? Just vote for the images you like, remembering to do this everytime you browse the gallery. Even if you don't think is the best work you've ever seen, but maybe using the criteria "I would rather see this one in the Hot20 than some of the ones that are already there". I don't know. If most of us try this for a period of time, we might see some differences and will be able to compare. Why not give it a try? Cheers! Barb

My crafts - My Freebies - My Store - Delightful Arts

I absolutely agree with you, Barb. And I've been voting my fool head off since reading this thread. But I don't believe there is an "elitist attitude" permeating this thread. A forum is the medium wherein people can air their thoughts and opinions, isn't it? Personally, I don't ride a high horse... I prefer to perch upon a stunted donkey... so that I don't have too far to fall when someone kicks my ass. ;) Happens all the time, too. My two cents worth was only to point out that the Hot 20 doesn't seem to encompass the talent displayed in the fractal gallery the way it does in other software galleries. I have no intention of naming the people whose works I think should be profiled there but aren't (and I don't mean mine... I'm already in there and for that I'm eternally grateful and alot of the time embarassed) ... and I just feel that someone "shopping" for ideas in the fractal world and using the Hot 20 as a catalogue might well think it's not what they were hoping for. Let's get out there and vote, guys and gals... and keep an eye on the results.

I had given up on the H20, but I have started voting again, ever since the first day of this thread. Thanks Keith for starting it - again (it takes some guts for such a contentious issue). And my thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts.

I'll go back to sleep now, but I'll keep voting. To tell you the truth, this was prompted by sample 3 from the Raimu1-7 software sitting at the top of the hot 20 for a week. That has been dealt with elsewhere so we don't need to go there now, but it did remind me of everything that I didn't care for about the hot 20. In spite of what others have inferred, I don't care if I make it there. Let's sit back and enjoy it for what it is. Looking forward to the changes. Thanks everyone.

oh well, guess we never get over it, the Fun20 is NOT to be taken seriously, and we are NOT the problem really, we dont hear those who hit the voting button before they look at the piece of work the artist has created, cause they still will keep hitting that button, cause the mod says thats a good thing to do ... but unfortenately it isn't why do those peeps hit the voting button and spam their gestures openly in the comments is what we just want to know from them, you know yourself who you are, i would love to hear their comments on this matter also, but they keep faily quiet and vote more than ever the problem with more voting is that when one doesnt have much time to comment and vote, never gets to chance to get in there, i have tried that too ... no matter how many comments you give away, they just don't comment back, and will not vote for your own 'masterpiece' to solve all this you may want to considder the possibility to get the voting system quite differently: #1. change the Hot20 into the Fun20 #2. give the artist the possibilty to disable the voting, so they will and have to chose for themselves whether they want to be there or not i really dont give a $h1t about any toplist, for if i wannabe in there, i just can upload to the artmatic gallery, most of my designs are assembled with fractals generated from that program but thats not where i feel i belong to, i do my own art which belong in the fractal category, and thats what i keep on doing we have had many discussions about the face of our community, and like one which was about the mixed media, well it flows away too, and people just upload them mixed medium images in here again, like it used to be again the biggest problem lays in the H20, and still nothing has really changed, and the discussion stays ... i wonder what they do to solve this problem, or do they have a voting system here themselves whether they want to do anything what their members suggests anyways, hope those who are addicted or committed to whether they vote or want to be voted will figure it all out and i dont see if its a good idea to get old news out of the trash to get to hurt people, seems they think that when someone has chosen a path others dont understand, he/she gets to hear it over and over again... so best get those miss-steps buried and look more what the artist accomplishes to create on the screen with that fractal program and equivalents have a nice week Harmen

The whole aim here was to get MORE people to vote (thanks, Keith). There is a large percentage that doesn't vote...that is fact. As was stated, the Hot 20 will see a change, just not very soon. So, with the system as it is...the only way to see more diversity in the Hot 20, is for more members to vote. tdierikx: "All this inference of "vote swapping" and "collusion"..." It's not 'inference'...it does exist. "Saying that the current Hot 20 is full of images that "aren't worthy" is being incredibly rude as far as I see it." Why this discussion comes up time and again, is the fact that the Hot 20 is not a fair representation of the Fractal gallery as a whole. The thing is...there are a lot of members that will comment on images, but not vote for those they comment on. The complaint that Barb and I constantly get is that most times the Hot 20 includes multiple images from the same artist...and continues to happen. It's not that those artists featured "aren't worthy", but the fact that MORE artists don't get in. What about all the other images that receive plenty of comments, but never reach the Hot 20? It's not a 'petty' discussion, really. The Hot 20 is a visible part of the Fractal Gallery. A visble part that is open for criticism. There are a lot of great artists here that don't get their fair shot in it. Without more members voting, it will continue to show only a very small portion of the Fractal Gallery. Until a change can occur, the only tool we have is that 'vote' button. Nick

I don't think that an artist having more than one image in the H20 is a problem at all. Some artists here are just plain prolific. To do that would just make it one of those "everybody is a winner" type things. Who would then strive to get better? What the problem mentioned at the top of this thread is, and the water is being cloudied on, is the appearance of blatant swapping of votes between certain artists that roam in packs across a number of galleries. Now, don't get me wrong I DO appreciate a LOT when my images are voted for and it's ALWAYS a thrill but it kinda loses its impact when you see folks that "V" on almost EVERY image. I find the excuse that "I just wanted them to know just HOW MUCH I liked the image" to be disingenuous at best when you see that. I, personally, have no problem coming up with superlatives to convey my pleasure when I'm particularly blown away by an image and I'm not exactly the most eloquent person here. And I'll many times tuck them away in my faves list that I like to browse a lot for the inspiration those images supply. Now, I do vote a lot (anon, of course) and like to encourage a lot but shoot - I LIKE fractals! And then you have the ones that say "V" and lie and really didn't vote - I won't go there. And the problem is not that some people in this thread DON'T want votes either, IMHO. The bottom line is, like it or not, the H20 IS a sort of competition by its very structure - and it's human nature! - and hence, I think, needs some rules to make it seem more "fair" to everyone here like any other game or competition. Once it can be seen as "fair" then nobody can complain and let the chips fall where they may and everyone can move on and we won't have these threads anymore - I hope. :?) Or just can it, like Mags said since it causes such a problem for some. So here's my suggestions, maybe not new, maybe dumb, hopefully constructive... 1) I think adding "V" or any other coded indication (#) that one voted for an image should be a zero-tolerance, banning offense. Or maybe one second chance in case someone didn't know. That would require no software changes. And no "language barrier" excuses - some of the best artists here don't speak english well, but it DOES say when you join here that "english is the language of the site". And Babelfish isn't THAT bad. (BTW, when you see me say "VERY well done" it doesn't mean I voted, it is just a way to shout or accent the word. Like "WAY cool!!" as opposed to "way cool".) 2) I think that voting should be made possible directly from the H20 page to encourage more participation by decreasing the time and effort required. The site runs slow, sometimes - especially getting to/from the H20 page. Though it IS a good excuse to go to someone's gallery and catch up on images you may have missed seeing. 3) I think that there should be a 24 hour delay set on the time it takes for a vote to register in the H20. This would make it much harder to discern if someone voted for your image by "hawking" the image and checking for new votes with each new comment/viewing - a thing I admit to having done b4, myself, but try to never let influence my own voting - and further lessen the "quid-pro-quo" opportunities/appearance. 4) I think I read this b4 in the past in one of these threads but anyhow, I think all artists should be required to chose a genre on their homepage manager and their votes only be counted when cast for images of that genre. There was a big stink a while back in the Terragen gallery about fractal folks supposedly coming over and casting "uninformed"(their word, not mine) votes. They maybe had a bit of a point even if their method of protesting was a bit over the top and very rude and hurtful to the lady involved. What does a fractal geek like me know about the finer points of using T-gen or Poser - nada. I'm into abstraction, spirals and colors/textures, not nature scenes or human figures - though I find the colors/composition of some of those images pretty darn beautiful and I'm a closet Bryce admirer - lol. If someone wanted to change their chosen genre, put a week delay on when the change takes effect so people couldn't hop back and forth. This would not restrict anyone from posting images in multiple galleries/software platforms - just which they could vote in. You can count the "V"'s in our H20 on some images (yes, some on mine too) from artists from galleries other than Fractal and see that they sometimes can make up 80-90% of the total votes. We're kinda small compared to the Poser, etc galleries, ya know? 5) And I agree with Nick and Keith that everyone should vote OFTEN. Fractal images should be getting 40-50 votes like in other galleries rather than just 10-20. I reckon folks could still IM each other about votes but that would be pretty darn sick or sociopathic even? Probably most of this stuff is unfeasable from a software/cost standpoint. Or just dumb. And yes, I've been known to go to other galleries and comment on the work of a few artists from those genres that I like, too, and some of them stop by to check out my stuff as well so I'm not totally "lily-white" in this mess either. Though, I've only said "V" once maybe twice a couple years ago and that was to cheer up a XD artist who was really bummed about his work not making the H20. Nice guy - neat XD shapes - reckon I'm just a softie - so shoot me. He ended up leaving anyhow. Anyhow, I hope nobody gets ticked at me and my art doesn't suffer the consequences of my mouth/fingers - I'm just trying to help here....And, Keith - dadgum it, don't you go getting any ideas - leave your amazing images right where they are or I'll have to come up to Seattle and re-post them myself! lol Rick

HEHE!!!!!! This topic again------------------ So why not make the hot20 run on views not votes? I know when I run through the gallery I view those images I like, and I also use that as the first measure of response to my own images (I don't care about votes or V thingies). Either that or simply kick it and promote FWW...I never look at the 20, but FWW ALWAYS has AWSOME stuff in it (which I usually vote for while viewing :P) //Matt ps-I post comments and vote for images based on 2 factors- First is how awsome the image is (did it really amaze me) and second is how much time I have. I NEVER post/vote based on other comments/votes and would be very ticked off to see someone do that for me (though I will admit to finding some awsome stuff by clicking the name of the person who commented on one of my images, but it was, above all, awsome stuff).

Herd voting - that's b-a-a-a-a-d. Mooooving right along...

A few observations:

The H20 is a popularity contest. It puts people into a visible
spot. You get into this spot if/wen you're popular. NOBODY HAS EVER
CLAIMED OTHERWISE. If anybody here has any kind of ideas that this is
some kind of "artistic competition" and that is should have more
"fairness" and that people will/should "strive to improve their work"
to get into the H20, then I am hereby requesting to be shown the
Renderosity policy that says that the H20 is anything other than an
open, clear, unmitigated, blatant popularity contest.
You win a popularity contest by being popular. Not by being "good"
at any one thing, not by being "creative", not by being "artistically
sensitive", not by being amongst "the best that fractal art has to
offer" or any such popular misconceptions. If people would like some
way to showcase any such category, then I'd like to direct their
attention to the Fractal Window Weekly - which is doing quite an
admirable job.
I really, really don't understand what the big deal is. Some people
are popular. So? Why is that a problem? Some of the images in the H20
are junk. There I said it. And? Why is that a problem? Why is it a
problem if/when I say so? A lot of stuff on the web is junk. Much of
my own stuff is junk. Much of what I see on Rendo is junk. It would be
a big surprise if much in the H20 wasn't junk. I'm all for posting a
picture of a big pile of dog doo if that conveys someone's
judgement. Where's the problem? Popular people produce as much junk as
unpopular ones. And?
People can already chose for their images NOT to be up for ranking
or comments. From this it follows that they want to hear comments --
good ones or not-so-good ones. I don't think I've ever posted
downright negative things, but I've certainly handed out my share of
criticism together with the praise. And gotten whiny pm's how I
shouldn't say anything if I can't say anything nice. I tend to
chuck'em. If you don't want to see where you stand on people's
attention/admiration/popularity ladder, disable comments. By
corrolary: If you'd rather not have the crushing experience of NOT
being voted into the hot-20, by all means don't post to
renderosity. There's a gazillion gallery sites out there. Some with
popularity contests, some without.
But if it bugs you that others are more popular than you are, you
might want to re-examine why you're posting here in the first
place. If popularity is really a big concern for you, then this might
just be a good time to learn what you should have learned in grade
school: that popularity isn't won merely by doing good work. That
there's a social aspect to it. That has to be learned, practiced and
maintained. Renderosity's self-description contains two parts:
"artist's" and "community". Anybody is free to focus on one or the
other or both or ignore either or whatever floats their boat. The H20
happens to showcase those who are good at building communities (of
voters, that is). So?

So where exactly is the problem here? Why is it a problem to see a
"V" and know "oh, so THIS person is popular with THAT crowd"? Who,
exactly, is being harmed here? Who is harmed by open, blatant
vote-swapping? What is at stake here?

I dont wonna know from the H20 what people are popular but what pictures are. The trouble is that those flattering voting robots don't read this thread. They don't care about fractals anyway. (And I don't like rhetorical questions too much.)

We cover this - time to move on . H

Now I remember why I stopped coming to the Forum!

The easiest solution is to change the name from "Hot20" to "Vote Swapping Extravaganza!!!!" .. Those extra exclamation points mean extra fun! Although this might offend any Hot20ers who actually think every one of their images really is worthy to be recognized as a top image.

Lagardo- perhaps nobody claims it is other than a popularity contest, but I think most of us can relate to visiting another gallery and checking the Hot20 first expecting to see the best recent work that is in the gallery. I often go to C4D and TG galleries and look in their Hot20.. And you know what, the best work generally is in those Hot20s. Our Hot20 is too watered down with the auto voted/swapped voted images. The fractal window weekly is a much better example of great work.

Today there is an image in the Hot20 that is not even an image, it is a message. Sorry, that just seems wrong to me.

Renderosity: the 'Price Is Right' of fractal art websites.

We are going to make changes to the system. Just not right now - according to Dream Warrior posted above. Surely if this is the case then any further discussion is pretty futile until we are allowed to know what these changes are. Presumably, they're 'top secret' at the moment and mere members are not allowed the details. Sometimes when you treat people like children, they act like children - just a thought.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

I haven't heard what the "changes" will be, either, but I'm not sure they're being kept from us. Could be they haven't decided yet exactly WHAT changes will be made? I feel that these threads, as troubling and divisive as they sometimes are, might have a good side in that we can at least try to make suggestions and debate constructively about how to improve things and maybe the operators of the site might agree with some of the things we come up with? At least I think that's how it works.... Rick

Hmmm - we can but hope Rykk, we can but hope!

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

Mags- Repeating what I had posted, as well: As was stated, the Hot 20 will see a change, just not very soon. So, with the system as it is...the only way to see more diversity in the Hot 20, is for more members to vote. "Surely if this is the case then any further discussion is pretty futile..." No...this particular discussion is about working with what we have...the 'vote' button. Surely if more members vote, there is more of a chance that we will see a change in the Hot 20. "Presumably, they're 'top secret' at the moment and mere members are not allowed the details. Sometimes when you treat people like children, they act like children - just a thought." First, as Rick said : "Could be they haven't decided yet exactly WHAT changes will be made?" This is correct...there are no definites yet, though we have collected the ideas from discussions such as these. Second, things take time...there are many other issues besides the Hot 20. I assure you it IS on the list. No one is being treated like a child. If that were the case, why would we even allow anyone to suggest their ideas in the forums? We are here to serve members the best we can. Please be patient, and let's try to work with what we currently have. Thanks, Nick

I think you're being unfair, Mags. Everytime someone made a suggestion, complained about something or simply ranted, we listened, we payed attention and asked for opinions. I said what I said because I wanted to give you guys a sense of tranquility that you're not being unheard. That we do care. We could have simply left the thread unreplied and open for endless discussion. We always do what is within our powers. Barb

My crafts - My Freebies - My Store - Delightful Arts

I'm sorry you think I'm being 'unfair' - I think that to tell us there are going to be changes and then not tell us what or when is pretty 'unfair' too. You say things take time - well, this is not the first time the Hot20 has come under discussion - presumably it has been 'on the list' ever since members first started complaining about it and you have been 'listening, paying attention and asking for opinions' from way back when it all first started - so surely by now you must have enough information to come up with some kind of decision. Without any details to back up your statement that there will be changes it just feels like a patronising 'pat on the head' from a parent to their squabbling children!

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

The Hot20 is a Rendo wide feature, it envolves not only the fractal gallery and it's not mine or Nick's decision what to do with it. We are not the owners of the site, so as I told you, we always do what's within our powers. I'm sorry if you felt patronised, my intention was quite the opposite. Barb

My crafts - My Freebies - My Store - Delightful Arts

OK - I understand now - I thought moderators had more 'power' than they do - it must be very frustrating for you both in this situation. M

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

Don't know why the above post suddenly appeared 5 times today - it was only there once yesterday! Have deleted four. M

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

:) I was pretty sure you were not trying to emphasize! LOL

My crafts - My Freebies - My Store - Delightful Arts

Thank goodness for that - I'm in enough trouble as it is! lol

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

I don't believe that. It has happened in the past because I have gotten one of those IMs, but on every image? I don't think so.

The people who dominate the hot 20 (and we all know who they are) do so because they have a posse, a clique. I guess that's OK because it does boil down to popularity. It just gets so frustrating to see same ones showing up there with every single one of their daily images. How do you compete with that? Van Gogh himself could put an image in the fractal gallery and not compete. Really, take a look at the galleries of these people and see if you can find an image that has NOT been in the hot 20. That's not fair. I know that it will take a change to the system to correct that. In the mean time the only way to help is to vote.

It's been over a week since I started this thread and I am not sure what to think. It might be working. I have 2 images in there and I don't remember the last time that happened, but it's like I campaigned for it with this thread. I wish that it was still more diverse. If you have been voting, great, thanks, keep it up.

Message edited on: 07/17/2005 19:18

Glad to see you have images in the Hot20 at last Keith - not before time! I think you campaigned for every one of us not in the 'clique' - for which I say a big thank you. I've been voting a lot since this thread started and never bothered before - I hope others are doing the same. M

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

I've been voting my head off since this thread started. And I think we can see a result already because others did so as well. Sometimes it's good to bring up "old stories" :-)

I agree, some changes are starting to show. Of course this won't happen overnight, but I think if we all keep trying, we will be able to see significant differences soon. Things can change when people work together :) Barb

My crafts - My Freebies - My Store - Delightful Arts

VOTE, VOTE, VOTE thats the action you need to do silently

That's quite a vent. I don't know who the herd is. It's likely that each of us has our own. Some herds are obviously bigger than others Just vote.

I like that Rykk has offered some real suggestions on this matter. They should be taken into consideration. I believe that all of the gripes, complaints, and negative comments on the H20 have already been gone over again and again. I made my own decision on this matter. I disabled my e-bots and I browse the gallery. When I see something extraordinary in ANY genre, I vote...anon. I don't vote for anyone just because they * one of my posts.I don't vote for anything just because I "like" that person. I don't get alot of views or * anymore, but what I get, I believe are sincere. It starts with us as individuals. To thine own self be true. Vote for WHAT you like, not WHO you like...but vote.

I have given up. And my comments come less often. Perhaps playing with fractals and looking through fractal galleries for five or six years makes me less amazed by many images? But I am still amazed by some :-)

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

I agree - there did seem to be a change but now it is back to the usual few who produce mediocre fractals and have no conscience. Frankly I'm fed up with them taking the **** out of the system and all the genuinely talented fractal artists who post here. The Hot 20 just does not work - for heaven's sake let's get rid of it and put a stop to their inane way of having fun.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

Yes, I see that too. It did work for a while though so it isn't completely hopeless. I can't be too critical of the people who consistently make mediocre images and still dominate the hot 20. I'm sure that they are popular because they are kind, caring and loving people. How can anyone criticize that? The system needs to change. I think it was Rick who suggested that we pick a gallery to vote in in our profile. I like that. It would be more democratic. We would be voting in our own neighborhoods. I've gone back and forth about limiting the number of images that any one person can have in the hot 20 and I have concluded that it's a good idea - one a week. One other idea is to change the voting to 'yes' or 'no'. The way it is now only the 'yes' voters have a choice. All a person needs is a following of 25 and they'll make it no matter what, leaving the other 100 of us without a choice. If we could vote 'yes' or 'no', the hot 20 would be more honest. No one would need to know how many 'no' or 'yes' votes that they received. They would only see that they did or didn't make it in to the hot 20. That might make it so that the hot 20 didn't have 20 images in it. Maybe even none if everyone voted 'no' on everything. No problem. It would still boil down to popularity but at least it would be honest popularity.

Deagol those are great suggestions. The no vote would help balance things out.

Voting "No" would heat the fight for the Hot20 even more - just imagine someone with several clone accounts voting "Yes" for their own images and several times "No" for all competitors' images... Someone brought up the idea that one artist should only have one or two images in the Hot20. That's the best idea so far IMHO.

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

Wish I could data mine the rendo database. Could find some interesting stats I'm sure, about traded/automatic comments, traded/automatic votes, other patterns.. Sad that human nature kind of spoils the system.

I like Rick's idea of voting in only one community. I also like the idea of limiting only one image in the H20 from any artist. I also particularly like the idea of using the IP address as the definition of a 'voter' to reduce the clone account votes. Technically speaking, in general each computer has a unique IP address. So this would eliminate clone votes except from real techies who get into the nitty gritty and change IP addresses just to get around this, and those who play musical computers at the library or an internet cafe. (Probably not many fall into this category.) Unfortunately, additional bona fide users of the same computer would be unable to vote, but I wonder how many of those there are? Perhaps Rendo could do some investigating and find out how many Rendo accounts normally share the same IP address? Can we get some feedback on this from the Rendo managers?

Limiting vote by IP addresses won't work... for those with a dial-up connection only need to disconnect/reconnect to get a new one. Then there is the strong possibility of people sharing the same internet provider, and therefore will probably have similar IP ranges... Also - for those who are on a home network sharing an internet connection with other members of their family - they will all have the same IP address (unless their internet provider allows more than one IP addy per user) Then there are people like myself, whose internet provider (for some ungodly reason) decides to recycle IP addresses every now and then... It would only theoritically work if EVERY user had a STATIC IP address... which ain't gonna happen anytime soon... lol! How about the simple method... if you are that concerned about the "quality" of the works in the Hot 20 - YOU just make it a dialy ritual to get in here and vote for the works that you'd like to see there. It's all well and good to want the votes for one's own works - but if one doesn't vote onesself, then one really can't complain... can one? T.

Who? Me?

As Dreamwarrior said in post 42 - "We are going to make changes to the system. Just not right now". Maybe we should just let this thing die until we see what those changes are - we all want changes and have been told we are going to get them, so let's just wait and see - but hopefully not too long.

We don't cease to play because we grow old, we grow old because we cease to play.

Exactly. Rest assured that we will welcome and read your suggestions when the time comes, but there is absolutely nothing we can do about it right now. :( Barb

My crafts - My Freebies - My Store - Delightful Arts

Sorry for the lame suggestion. It's funny how out of date technically one can become in a very short time. To AnnaKirsten, please don't get too disheartened about the H20. I quit looking at it and voting some while back, but recently decided to give it a go again and vote for the images I find are better than the average. Most people here, whether pros or dabblers, are decent and dedicated artists. And to tdierikx, your continual implications of self-serving behaviour for anyone who is dissatisfied with the H20 are unnecessary and annoying.

Hang on.... I was just saying that if WE want to see works that WE like in the Hot 20 - WE have to vote - nothing more, nothing less. That is how the works get there, right? Votes dictate which works appear...? So, it stands to reason that if people don't vote for the works that they like - then they can't really complain about other people's tastes over the works appearing in the Hot 20. I am NOT advocating reciprocal voting! The idea that certain people should dominate the Hot 20 by default actually seems a little silly. Sure, there are some very fine artists submitting very fine works that are somehow not appearing in the Hot 20 - but not everyone's tastes are the same as each other's. What YOU may think is a masterpiece may not seem so to ME (for example). Such a simple concept really... if you like something, vote for it! How come there are so many people managing to spend their time complaining about the way the Hot 20 works - but say that they don't have the time to vote for the works they'd rather see in there? This is all just going around in circles and is becoming rather pointless as far as I see it. T.

Who? Me?

For me it's been interesting to watch what has been happening in the hot 20 as result of this thread and then see how it went back to business as usual over the coarse of several weeks. There's nothing wrong with making observations and talking about it. What I see now is proof that the system does need to change. The only thing that bothers me about this thread are the people complaining about it. Wouldn't it be simpler just to click out if you are not interested anymore? Read what I said in the first entry, 5th paragragh. Keith

What if you could only cast one vote per day.

That is a good point jockc... but maybe extending that to one vote per gallery section (ie. Fractals, Poser, Terragen, etc) - some people may be regular participants in more than one medium... Deagol - the sorry fact of the matter is that we have members here who seem to think that just about every image they upload should be automatically included in the Hot 20 - just because they think that their work is so much more superior than anyone else's. Yet these same people beg off on the voting aspect, saying that it's a waste of their time for one reason or another... they want everyone to vote and comment on their work "just because"... sorry people, that ain't gonna happen... ever... Me personally? I've never voted for anyone's work - and I really couldn't care less if my work gets into some Hot 20 list or not. If I post my work here, it's because I thought it was decent enough for public viewing, and if other people like it, that's nice - if they don't, that's cool too. I have over 1100 fractal images in my own personally hosted gallery - and 2 (yes TWO) that I have posted here... draw whatever conclusion you like from that little fact. Renderosity isn't the be all and end all of the "art" or fractal community you know... T.

Who? Me?

IMO the Hot20 is an instrument to pop out of the mass of artists and posted images. In the newest fractal vintage gallery there is an artist who stopped posting one or two years ago - he is already forgotten. And everybody who does not post anything here is forgotten within seconds. So you need the Hot20 to promote your gallery. Those who don't have this need have the chance to leave the Hot20 alone... If I am allowed to vote only once per day - it will be hard to vote for two images which are worth every vote. Ciao, Andreas

:rolleyes::sad:
Joy of Frax

tdierikx, Maybe I've missed something here but I don't recall anyone in the fractal community ever explicitly or implicitly saying what you claim them to have said, i.e. that "their work is so much more superior than anyone else's" and that others "want everyone to vote for their work "just because"". Perhaps you can point out an instance or two. Because if not, I would be very relieved if you would keep those types of remarks to yourself because I, for one, am totally fed up with your accusations. You, of all people, who claim never to have voted for anyone's work, are being incredibly phoney in scolding people for not voting. You say you don't care who is in the H20 list, then why don't you just butt out of the discussion. We all know your opinion, we don't need you to keep repeating it, with more insulting remarks each time. And furthermore I, and probably most others here, could care less how many images you have in your personal gallery. If you don't care about the Renderosity community, as you imply, than kindly stay out. Tim

Sweet dreams are made of this Who am I to disagree? Travel the world and the seven seas Everybody's looking for something Some of them want to use you Some of them want to get used by you Some of them want to abuse you Some of them want to be abused Eurhythmics The song wasn't written for the Fractal H20, but... ulli

Please, let's keep it civil.

My crafts - My Freebies - My Store - Delightful Arts

Fair enuff then... I'll butt out... this whole thread is getting totally pointless anyways... too many people trying to read an undertone when there isn't one. I understand that my opinion isn't worth 2 bob here, and my artworks couldn't possibly compete with the "masters" that seem to populate this place... even if it is only at their own insistance... (sorry DreamWarrior - I just had to have a dig... grrr!) T.

Who? Me?

I am sitting in front of this computer with a friend and reading through the forum..This is the first acquaintance I have had with this incendiary discussion. And though I couldn't quite agree with the taste involved, I had to LOL @CI's photograph! ..A little, if ambiguous, comic relief to puncture some of the turgidly distended tensions here... I thought that Rykk-(but not only)-contributed some solid sanity to the discussion: I, too, before I read this and consequently understood that it was considered taboo, had explicitly registered a V in the comment..Not to indicate a "vote-trade" but simply to reinforce the compliment...I obviously will exercise greater caution hereafter.... It seems to us-(I and my friend)-that all the difficulties with vote-trading could be effectively resolved by requiring of each artist intending to vote for the H20 that they submit a list consisting of their twenty preferred images, by a specified time limiting the event, to the moderators, Barbara and Nick, who have been proven as eminently qualified artists and moderators, for final judgement. We would then simply accept their selections as final. We may, in particular cases, dissent from their choices, but we could no longer complain of mediocre work appearing there.. This is the suggestion of my friend, which instantly seemed to me to constitute very good sense.. It, perhaps, would not entirely eliminate vote-trading, but, even if that were occurring, would subject the final lists to the scrutiny of persons whose every indicated inclination is in the direction of imagistic excellence.... It makes sense to me....

what can be said that has not been said. I know some people posting here(gallery) does not have the time to comment as much as say I do. they have families to care for and working more than one job to make ends meet. I do spend a lot of time visiting many galleries and enjoy viewing and commenting on work whether it is the quality of the fine artists or not. Everybody does not start on the top, but with encouragement they may continue and be there.as for different galleries, I post in photography as much as fractals. Poser and Terragen is software I use on a regular basis but do not care to post. I do not spend enough time to be really good, but that does not stop being able to spot excellent art no matter what the software is. I have used most of what is out there at one time or another(no good but did try). My main love is Apophysis and photography with Poser in the runing. I stopped mentioning vote but never stopped voting for what I think is excellent images, no matter what gallery or genre. if some of these people has time to be in the forum belittling others then they have time to comment and vote if they choose. last time I looked "community" is in the name of Renderosty and that means cooperation not back stabbing

Forum: Fractals

Subject: The hot 20 - again