The current version, along with the Bryce 5.5 fix, works with Bryce fine now, so they've fixed that. The reason that the versions change is because it is still in Beta. We got a sneak peek at their (very nice, btw) version of magnets in a version that was otherwise very buggy, and was fixed that night. I've got P5 and D|S, and, unless I want something specifically that Poser 5 has, I always use D|S. The only things I have used P5 for since becoming interested in D|S have been creating MAT files, Poses, or complex textures using the nodes in the Material room, or using Python Scripts. It's been said that they're working on a scripting that is a little different from python, but, since I'm not part of the dev. team, I haven't a clue. For me, it opens faster, it renders faster, takes up a lot less system resources, and, IMHO, handles light better and renders better. That's just my opinion of what I've used it for thus far. And, I have a tendency, at least since I got serious about using D|S, with trying my darndest to break the program. So far, I'm not as dissappointed in D|S as I was with P5, but, well, it's all a matter of personal preference. Figure out what YOU need it for and what YOU want to do with it ;). MS Poser/D|S Mod.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

"Rawnrr's opinions seem to reflect what most users think." I really doubt that. D/S isn't better than poser 4, but about the same. Poser 5 isn't a headache anymore (unless you don't have SR4). Not only Poser 6 surpasses it in final quality and options, but Poser 5 already does. Poser 6 is light years ahead of D/S and is well worth the price. D/S is such an outdated application and it's not worth a dime. It's actually so badly programmed that they've been anouncing V1.0 for over a year now..... go figure. Poser 6 render quality is superior and it's easy and logical to use. Can't say that of D/S at all.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

For my purposes there's not much of a "versus." I use both. Because content loads more quickly and renders tend to be faster, I use D|S for quick "test" renders and for final renders that don't rely on Poser 6 features. I love those Poser 6 features, though, so most of my rendering still occurs in P6. I've come to like the D|S integration in Bryce. It's a bit "iffy" and problematic at times, but a heck of a lot easier, when it works well, than prior methods of importing non-native content into Bryce. The D|S base module simply isn't robust enough to compete with Poser 6. If there must be a "versus," Poser wins, unless one can't afford it. However, D|S has its own charms and advantages, so again, it can be useful to have both handy.

In no sense am I opposed to D|S. It's just that it doesn't compare to P6.

As others have already indicated, D|S is roughly equal to P4. Studio has a couple of features that P4 lacks (like multiple undo) -- but all in all: it's equivalent.

I haven't used P4 in years. P6 blows it totally out of the water.

So, until such time as D|S starts coming up with some new and substantive tricks.......a few nice add-on functions won't be enough to lure me away from P6.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

aeilkema - Daz3D is doing a lot of catch up here. Exactly how amazing was Poser 1.0 - oh, that amazing... ;) From what I hear, it sucked. Daz is trying to catch up with fifteen years and 5 or 6 versions with the same lack of information that all of us Poser 'reverse-engineers' have had to deal with. Two years to a v1.0 would not be unrealistic.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

"Rawnrr's opinions seem to reflect what most users think." They do. "DS has no support for magnets,python and wardobe wizard." Lack of WW support is guaranteed. CC, on the otherhand, still works for it. Python is extremely unlikely. Magnets will most definitely be coming along. "DS hates me.....therefore I hate it." Note sure D|S has emotional capabilities. I'm none too fond of it myself, though, for a similar reason: it don't work on my puters. "it currently lacks IK, a material system comparable to P5/P6, and advanced animation tools." Too true. All things that I make use of myself. Sadly, though, most users don't. It does, however, have a fairly advanced material system. Unless they were to license certain aspects of firefly though, they'll not be able to easily convert between Poser 5+ and D|S, meaning that anyone who makes for both will have to learn two rather different material systems. "it opens faster, it renders faster, takes up a lot less system resources, and, IMHO, handles light better and renders better. That's just my opinion of what I've used it for thus far. And, I have a tendency, at least since I got serious about using D|S, with trying my darndest to break the program. So far, I'm not as dissappointed in D|S as I was with P5, but, well, it's all a matter of personal preference. Figure out what YOU need it for and what YOU want to do with it ;)." All valid points in comparison with P5, and pretty fair. Against P6, however, they don't stack up as well. "D/S is such an outdated application and it's not worth a dime. It's actually so badly programmed that they've been anouncing V1.0 for over a year now..... go figure." Given its not even finished yet, this could use a bit more thought. Win 95, 98, NT, and XP were all announced well over a year in advance of their release, as an example. The objective itself isn't outdated either, and the dev team is using current methods and procedures for creating it, so outdated would be more aptly applied to the codebase for the program I find generally far more appealing over all, which is Poser. Just as many people dislike the Poser interface, I find the DS interface to be something akin to horrific. But that's a matter of personal taste, not functionality or overall usability. In general, D|S is equivalent to Poser 4 with the rendering features of P5. That gives it a good, solid base, and for the overwhelming majority of people posting images, that's fine. Constructive criticism requires balance. Anything else is just bitchin about it.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

kuroyume0161, as a Poser 1.0 owner, I can tell you that in it's time Poser 1.0 was very amazing!!!! DAZ Studio just sucks, especially if one compares it to it's peers. It is beyond me why any company would want to invest in outdated technology. Well it's not really beyond me I know it's a matter of greed. All DAZ wants to do through D/S is suck people into their store. Giving away something for free knowing that it's not functional on it's own at all. You need to buy a lot of add-ons to make it worthwhile. Clever tactic, DAZ uses it all the time..... They're so nice nowadays that they give you base figures for free. Pretty much worthless base figures without all the stuff you need to buy for them. Spent $500 and get $100 from them in coupons that can hardly be used on anything. How nice. It's all about the money and DAZ isn't hiding it at all. Don't think I've ever seen a company that does so much effort to get you buying stuff from them. But this is a whole different story... bottomline is, compared to it's peers, D/S sucks.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

BTW - from what I've heard through the rumor mill, P7 is due out about this same time next year.....so e-frontier isn't resting on its laurels, either.

IMO - competition is a good thing. It encourages higher efforts from all parties involved.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

D|S' "peer" (singular, note) is Poser 4. Compared to Poser 4, D|S is better. "Pretty much worthless base figures without all the stuff you need to buy for them." Worthless in what way? They pose, they move, and someone who is capable can use them in all sorts of cool ways. You don't need the morph packs or the texture pack. And some places sell Aiko clothing for a buck and a half that works great. That alone gives the figures worth. "Well it's not really beyond me I know it's a matter of greed." Can you substantiate this claim?

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

@ aeilkema --

Frankly, I don't understand what your beef with DAZ is.

The basic forumula seems to be "DAZ = BAD".

In pretty much every thread about DAZ, you tend to denounce them in no uncertain terms. They must have done something in the past that really got under your skin.

Personally, I think that DAZ is a fine company that produces excellent products. I use DAZ products in one way or another nearly every time that I open up my copy of P6.

For whatever reason, you can't seem to stand anything that they do.........

Something To Do At 3:00AM

"D|S' "peer" (singular, note) is Poser 4. Compared to Poser 4, D|S is better." A peer is someone or something from the same time as you are, therefore D/S peers are P5 and P6. not P4. Greed..... Reward Sale???? Proclaiming loudly and proudly that you can earn up to $400 if you just spent $2000 at their store knowing that quite a number of poser users have debts because of all the stuff they've already purchased in previous sales. Asking for $2000 is nothing short of greed imo. Ypu've got to look at it relatively though. Most of us don't even spent that kind of money on poser stuff even during a whole year. Most of us already spent more the we need or should on poser items, so asking us for that kind of money seems a bit greedy to me. I know you can spent less too, but this kind of ads: "That means you can earn up to $100 per week for the next four weeks!" are just over the top, knowing how much you'll need to buy. DAZ is greedy and are counting on the greediness of poser users to buy lot's of stuff they'll never be able to use.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

aeilkema, in it's time (circa 1990), yes, maybe. But it was mainly proprietary (and still is) and, as we can all attest, not very expandable (can we say - single undo!). You know this better than I (never owned P1), but it didn't have a quarter of the current feature set - not even clothing, conforming, magnets, spherical falloff zones, just super low-res figures aimed at an artistic audience as a virtual posable stick-man. D|S is jumping into fifteen years of improvements, tweaks, and clumped-on third-party products (Python, Material Room, Face Room, Cloth Room, IBL and AO). Again, this would be like comparing a newly released OS (with similar support, let's say) to Windows XP Pro! And as others have said, competition is good. Looks to be working since Poser is no longer sitting on its a$$!

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

takes off mod hat IMHO, DAZ's rewards sale is no different than a cc company or a bank offering rewards points on the same scale. It's not DAZ's responsibility to make sure people stay out of debt. They are a business, and they're trying to keep afloat. If people are going into debt over Poser items, it's probably time they rethought why they're using Poser. Is it to have the biggest runtime, or actually enjoy the items you have, and create art with them? pops hat back on

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

As for outdated technology. It's outdated content driving the outdated technology. If EF were to jump into NURBS-based skinning, many deficiencies would vanish. Alas, every version of Poser (including 6 SR1) still uses the same outdated technology. D|S uses Poser content, therefore it uses outdated technology. What else would you expect? (Yes, it would be nice to have a new figure application using more recent technologies).

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

MorriganShadow, browsing through the poser galleries it seems to be about the biggest runtime, since quite a lot of the images hardly contain any content at all ;-)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

"A peer is someone or something from the same time as you are" This is incorrect in the context you used it in. No offense. A Peer is an Equal (in station or class). It is a much broader term than in your usage. "Greed..... Reward Sale???? Proclaiming loudly and proudly that you can earn up to $400 if you just spent $2000 at their store knowing that quite a number of poser users have debts because of all the stuff they've already purchased in previous sales. Asking for $2000 is nothing short of greed imo. Ypu've got to look at it relatively though. Most of us don't even spent that kind of money on poser stuff even during a whole year. Most of us already spent more the we need or should on poser items, so asking us for that kind of money seems a bit greedy to me." 1 - This doesn't substantiate the claim that you "know" its greed. This is an explanation for an opinion -- a justification of a position. Not a substatiated claim. 2 - Daz, to date, has done nothing any different than any other retail concern would do. Unless all retailers are greedy (and that's too great a generalization to make), there's little evidence of greed. Operating a business like theirs is a for profit enterprise. While I'm not known for my fondness of them, I doubt Greed is the motivating factor involved. (The point I'm attempting to make is that you are making pronouncements of fact, not opinon. Your opinon is valid and fine -- your presentation is subject to weaknesses, though, so its always safer to do it in terms of expressing your opinion).

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

There's no use to compare DS to Poser 6, the latter is light years ahead. But, if you want a little freeware prog just to pose and do basic renders, then go with DS. You will not disappointed.

I haven't used DS to any degree because it choked to death on my old computer with 256 Mb RAM. Now that I've got a new computer, I've installed it, but haven't gotten around to using it. The posing conventions were just different enough that I was frustrated when I tried to use the program. At the moment, since it seems to be the general comment above, there's nothing yet that is compelling enough to push me to use it again other than as a gateway to Bryce. For someone who doesn't want to spend $200 for a posing program, DS is a great place to start. Although DS & Poser make it easier to use 3D models, it's still not something that a person will do well overnight. The lack of a large accumulation of Poser extras also limits what a new person can do. DS becomes a free way of playing around with the program to see if it merits a greater investment in time and money. Once somebody develops a certain comfort level with the programs, it's possible to produce very good work.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

Yup, there are images that don't use a lot of content. Content in an image doesn't necessarily make it better (although, I've seen images that have content that...WOW....which is why we have the staff picks bi-weekly or weekly ;) ). But, seriously, yeah, DAZ has a sale.....does that mean you HAVE to buy the stuff? Nope. Some people (myself included) wait for sales to buy pretty darn near anything. And...well, I have to wait until pretty much the end of the sale anyway, lol. That's when we get our "spendable" paycheque ;). It's mostly about balance, and knowing whether or not you can afford it. Gamblers shouldn't blame Las Vegas because they're out of cash. Shop-a-holics shouldn't blame the stores that their cc's are maxed. And, likewise, Poseraholics shouldn't blame DAZ for having a sale if they've got no money. Yeah, the rewards add up, but...well, they should add up to "do I need this?", rather than "OMG, there's a sale, I HAVE TO HAVE ALL OF THIS!!!!".... I dunno. Maybe it's just me, but I've never been able to say "hmm....should I buy , or should I buy milk?" It's more than likely a different level of thinking than mine, and something that I can't grasp. sigh

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

... in case ya hadn't noticed, this is a sorta "hot button" topic, lol.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Where the hell did this thread go? Last time I looked it was a comparison between P4 and D|S. Greed be buggered, stick to the topic. :)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I downloaded and installed a copy of Studio awhile back. At the time though it was still very rough and not really useable for my purposes. Always meant to install the latest version but never got around to it. I blame my diminishing amount of free time and energy. Agree with those who think Studio is not quite ready to unseat Poser just yet, but I'm very interested in seeing the final version at some points. Re: DAZ is evil...never had any beef with them myself. I shop at a variety of Poser stores and few of them give me as much in the way of incentive as DAZ does when it comes to buying their products. And no one is twisting my arm to make these purchases. If someone is in debt over this, I don't think it's DAZ's (or any other vendor's) fault or responsibility.

Provided they actually release an SDK for D|S a lot of things will possible.

If you know how, you can get at the full power of the 3Delight shader system (just no GUI).

Look at the 1st D|S press release. Look at the Date. January 31, 2003. Folks D|S hasn't been in beta for over a year. It's been in Beta for over 2 years. More than that if you count the time PCLub members got the beta for a few months before the public beta. The render engine behind the scenes is same as Poser 5/6 renderman compliant render engine. 3Delight Renderman complant engine. I find it interesting that the Daz Forums have no Dan Farr posts anymore. He had mentioned laying off staff. Daz has a small staff, I'm sure the developemnt staff ain't all that large. Daz studio is nuttin more than a gimic. A way to get poser content in Bryce, which is Daz's new 3d toy, and a way to get people to buy content pure and simple.

"The render engine behind the scenes is same as Poser 5/6 renderman compliant render engine. 3Delight Renderman complant engine." While both engines are Renderman compliant, they are not the same. " I'm sure the developemnt staff ain't all that large" It isn't. While I'd have to pseter a few people, I think it's only about 8 folks. "It's been in Beta for over 2 years." Relevance? Wings3D has been in beta development longer than that. The beta period for POVRay was also really long (I don't recall specifics, but it seems like around two years, if not longer). The amount of time it takes to finish it isn't relevant to the capability of the final product, nor does it serve to sufficiently establish a lack of intent to finish. The programmers cost money -- no one's doing the development work for free, and the same folks are doing both Bryce and D|S now, so things are likely to slow down a bit. "pure and simple." Ain't nuttin pure nor simple 'bout none of dem t'ings...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Ok, so, those of you that are thinking "D|S is going to be bad, because developtment is taking so long"....did you think the same about how quickly they put out buggy P5, P6, and now they plan to release P7 NEXT YEAR? I'd rather have a finished product as a 1.0 release candidate. If I can help it become a finished product, I will. That's basically what the public beta is for ;)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

my point was that in 2 years of development they still haven't gotten the Poser 4 compatability all the way there. Poser 4 being around for a long time and a text based format and they haven't gotten that correct. EasyPose products they have in their own store have problems with D|S. Yes it's still Beta. I do not forsee a D|S 2, 3, or 4. Oh well, ones free, one's pay and has a history. I'll stick with the pay one. Poser 6 rocks and keeps getting better.

He had mentioned laying off staff.

Really? I thought they had just hired more people to develop Bryce.

Well, ynsaen and morrigan shadow have salready said it, but I'll repeat it anyway. I see the long dev time as being a distinct advantage. I've used DS since the first alpha, and in that time, I've seen features and tweaks that I requested added to DS. I'd rather have that, than see DAZ rush out a half-assed version just to keep the whiners happy. And since rob whisenant of the dev team probably knows more about the insides of poser than every member of this community combined, I have total confidence in his ability to turn DS into a serious competitor to poser. I don't know when that'll be, but it'll happen eventually. It's senseless to compare DS to P6, or even P5 at the moment. I'm a big fan, but it's not up there yet. What it is at the moment is a good basic app built on solid code which will allow it to be expanded a long, long way. I've used poser for over 8 years, and I love/hate it. But no matter how much we love it, there's no denying that the code is old and sometimes pretty creaky. The other thing that seems to divide opinion is the different UIs. I've never been a fan of the poser UI, but some people love it. Well, we all have our likes and dislikes and if you love poser's UI to death, you'll probably hate DS's. The only thing I can suggest to anyone trying out DS is DON'T try to pretend it's poser, because it isn't. It works differently and once you get used to it, it's great. mac

'He had mentioned laying off staff' I won't say 'BS', but I'd like to see some proof of that statement. mac

Children, children children....Please let's bring it back to the subject that I first started with. this isn't who is right or wrong discussion, this is about how both utilities compare to each other, and if you use them or not. I dont want this thread reduced to childish name calling and insults, so please let's keep it polite and civil.

Play nice or I'll turn this car araound.

Ask me a question, and I'll give you an answer.

galactron22,

I hate to jump in to this, as I might get hit with some very hot stray flames. There are a couple of things that DS does not have that P5/P6 do have that I didn't noticed mentioned yet.

Two features that I like about P5/P6, that aren't available in DS are Dynamic Hair and Dynamic Cloth. They aren't features that work well for all situations, but being a geek, I think they are pretty cool.

As said before, DS is very close to being equivalant to P4. The DS user interface is different than Poser, which some people like, and others hate (I like it myself). One big advantage of DS over P4 is the render speed. DS also uses Open GL (OGL) which really improves real time image quality and interactive speed of the view window. P6 is the only version of Poser that has OGL support.

As you might have noticed already, many people have very stong opinions about Poser and DS. This is true for about any 3D software. When you ask for a comparison of any two 3D apps, you'll get some very good information and advice, and a lot of opionions from those that either love, like, dislike, or hate the software of interest.

Bottom line, if you like DS, and you are able to do what YOU want to with it, then look no further. As your skills improve, you may outgrow DS (or Poser) and need to purchase someting else. But until then, if DS fits, then it's the right application for you. It has all the tools you need to produce awsome renders. With 3D, the skill of the person using the software is often the most important factor in getting jaw dropping images.

Good Luck and have fun!

PS: If someone already mentioned the dyynamic cloth/hair, I'm sorry for adding to the long thread - it's hard to read everything when flames are flying everywhere :-)

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

If you add me into that 'community combined', I'd say that we know about as much or more. My knowledge of Poser (and 3D in general) is quite extensive - maybe less about Poser user nuances, but quite a bit about the internal workings (much more than disclosed in my "Unofficial CR2 Specification" at this stage). And if you were to include David Matthews (Greenbriar Studio - C4D, LW, Maya, Max Poser plugins as well as a standalone Poser 'Toolbox') and a couple others, we could beat up a little bit on Rob. ;P That aside, Daz is basically reverse engineering Poser so that the content responds similarly in D|S as in Poser. I'm doing the same for interPoser Pro (and having to cope with a completely different system all-around in Cinema 4D). I started work on this 'type' of plugin a couple years ago, surrendered in defeat on multiple points of ignorance and contention, and then worked on interPoser Ltd. Now I'm back working Pro, reliving some of the nightmares, but with renewed understanding and resolve. I'll be brutally honest here: Poser uses methods that no other 3D application uses (of which I am aware anyway). I've searched several databases for literature that may have been used for these odd methods (ACM-SIGGraph, CMP (Dobbs, CUJ, et al)) and any other online and printed reference that could be found. This stuff is mainly in-house proprietary. The basic 3D is mostly basic 3D, but much of the other stuff (JPs, axial-dependent weighting, CATP, IK solver algorithm, conforming figures, Poser lighting) is all undocumented algorithmically. Daz has eight developers on D|S. I'm only one for interPoser - but I have an established API for a good part of the work.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

"I'd rather have a finished product as a 1.0 release candidate." You mean you don't enjoy paying for Windows and then getting to play beta tester with their released software? "The other thing that seems to divide opinion is the different UIs." I wouldn't go so far as to say I hate the UI. It's different, so there's some degree of learning curve to it that takes time. If you look at the meager selection in my gallery, you'll see that time is a limiting factor for me. Until DS has a compelling feature to make me put more time into it, I don't have any great incentive to invest time in learning it more. If it takes me a few hours longer to do what I already know how to do, I'm not going to use it. I can't think of anything with Poser's UI that irritates me, so I guess I like it, but haven't given it much thought. That doesn't mean it's better as much as it's what I'm accustomed to. Different interfaces can be annoying as anybody who has played with different remote and timer conventions on VCRs and other electronics. I know that there are legal reasons why DS can't copy Poser's interface, but that doesn't mean that I have to enjoy learning new buttons and concepts to do something I already know how to do. Somebody who starts with DS is going to have the same difficulty moving to Poser because it is different. The one flaw that any 3D posing application is going to have is that the user is playing in a 3D world on a 2D screen. I'm waiting for an affordable virtual rig that lets a user grab a 3D figure with virtual gloves and move all the figures limbs to where they should be. Trying to do it in a 2D environment is such a pain. X, Y, and Z dials have to be twisted individually to move a limb to where it would be so much easier to just move the limb if it were possible. I'm sure that there will eventually be some killer things that DS will do that force me to get used to its conventions and differences. I'm very sure that the only reason DAZ is developing its own posing program is so that they can eventually do something new with their figures. Without their own application, DAZ is limited to whatever Curious Labs wants to do with Poser. CL has no great incentive to reinvent the basic figure posing rigging and algorithms. DAZ makes its money in content. How much more can DAZ do with their core line of figures to convince customers to keep upgrading to the next generation of Millennium figures? CL isn't likely to reinvent what they're doing, so DAZ has to do it to move forward. For somebody new, my recommendation would be to stick with DS. The only reason to upgrade to Poser would be for some of its advanced features. There's really no reason for a beginning user to want to jump on those till they've pushed the limits of DS. That's months to years away for the average user.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

"How much more can DAZ do with their core line of figures to convince customers to keep upgrading to the next generation of Millennium figures?" A lot. But, um, that would get me started on Daz, and I promised to be good today.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

"Daz studio is nuttin more than a gimic" "bottomline is, compared to it's peers, D/S sucks." It's only peer would be another free posing and rendering program, of which there are none. Horus is the only other free Poser-like program that I've heard of, and it's development appears to be going nowhere. I hope that Poser users and D|S users will be able to work together in the future to ensure content compatibility and enable sharing of advancements, but I'm more than happy to help lead the D|S army into battle if the inevitable forum war breaks out. ;) For me, it's faster than Poser, easier to use, was easier to learn, and is made by a company that has actually listened to suggestions during its development. It's no gimmick, and it wouldn't surprise me if it's able to give P6 a run for it's money once the programmers among us get their hands on the SDK. SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

aeilkema wrote:

"Pretty much worthless base figures without all the stuff you need to buy for them."

Before they started giving those base figures away, you had to PAY for them. It never ceases to amaze me that some people can find ways to make FREE a BAD thing.......

"Greed..... Reward Sale???? Proclaiming loudly and proudly that you can earn up to $400 if you just spent $2000 at their store knowing that quite a number of poser users have debts because of all the stuff they've already purchased in previous sales. Asking for $2000 is nothing short of greed imo."

If you spend $20.00-$49.99, you'll receive a $4.00 voucher.
If you spend $50.00-$99.99, you'll receive a $10.00 voucher.
If you spend $100.00-$249.99, you'll receive a $20.00 voucher.
If you spend $250.00-$499.99, you'll receive a $50.00 voucher.
If you spend $500.00 or more, you'll receive a $100.00 voucher

Where does it say you should spend $2000?

"Ypu've got to look at it relatively though. Most of us don't even spent that kind of money on poser stuff even during a whole year. Most of us already spent more the we need or should on poser items, so asking us for that kind of money seems a bit greedy to me."

Again, where are they asking you to spend $2000?

Personally, I think you need to get off your DAZ Jones and find something constructive to do.......

MachineClaw wrote:

"Daz studio is nuttin more than a gimic."

Tell that to all the people that don't have ANY version of Poser and are having a ball using DAZ Studio to get their feet wet in 3D. ;)

Back to the topic.

I use DAZ Studio almost exclusively. I love the GUI, and it's a lot faster. I still have Poser 4 on my hard drive but I rarely use it anymore except for using the magnets, (I started with Poser 3). The only reason I have Poser 5 installed is for the Cloth Room, which I used to make clothing morphs. I render my figures almost exclusively in Bryce, so I have no use for Poser 6, great though some of the rendering features may be.

Coldrake

'He had mentioned laying off staff' "I won't say 'BS', but I'd like to see some proof of that statement." maclean wrote. Well Dan Farr posts at Daz Forum have been deleted or removed. only 22 posts on the Daz forums and I know of at least 10 posts he has made that are not found any more. Sorry, I cannot provide the statement of proof, it's gone now.

I dont know much about DS, but I can say this...a scene I was trying to render in P5 but was unable to after several tries (it seemingly got stuck on "adding objects", I let it run 58 hours the last time, then I finally canceled the render), rendered in DS in 8 hours 46 minutes...I dont know why it wouldn't render in Poser 5 but would in DS...

Say what you mean and mean what you say.

The bottom line D|S is FREE get it, use it, If you like it there you go happy rendering;-) if it do not do what you need or expect, then come to the forum ask questions, once satisfied invest in Poser, or try some higher end app. You haven't lost anything by trying D|S most content is cross compatible so again you haven't lost much if anything, if you purchase anything But if it's free why ask???

You might as well PAY attention, because you can't afford FREE speech

Poser 7 next year??? Now that is interesting. Nice to know E-frontier is serious in their commitment to Poser.

Still...by all accounts, the creaky old Poser code needs to be re-written from the ground up. (Much like the creaky old Bryce code, as DAZ discovered.) I had hoped they were going to do that for Poser 7. Doesn't seem like summer of 2006 is enough time for that, though. Though what do I know? Maybe E-frontier has a staff of thousands working on it. ;-)

or, maybe they started on it when P5 was finsihed.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Just to stir this up further: I say use Poser 4 (or whatever ver. you use) and render in Carrara or Vue. Much better render engines in those 2 apps. D|S can render better than P4, but I have seen many times where the texture maps were way off. In this case, no matter how good it renders. if everything is screwy looking. it ain't better.

FatCatAlley.net | Now Playing "SpaceCat 5" Parts 1 and 2

I don`t like the interface much. It is slower rendering than poser 4 but it can do more rendering features than poser 4.

coldrake, if you quote then qoute the whole bit.... also the part where they brag about the $400 you can earn the coming 4 weeks, that's asking for $2000, since it keeps on coming back a couple of times. As for DAZ laying off staff, just check their forums and the introduction of a number of new staff. The only one I know of leaving was Bryan Brandenburg and I really wonder why he went away. At least he was in favour of Poser users (especially when it came to Bryce & Poser working together), but since he's gone, DAZ has turned against Poser user again (at least when it comes to Bryce). Well, I'm done participating in this thread. Not that I want to stop doing so, but I'm gone for almost 2 weeks, time to go on vacation.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I heard Studio's head programmer from the beginning, Taylor Wilson, quit last month and think the next year will be interesting. I wonder why he quit.

o_O

Wow. I'd love to know, too.

Honestly, I think DAZ may have bitten off a little more than they can chew, with D|S, Bryce, and their core business of Poser content. They're a small company, and that's an awful lot of balls to keep in the air. I have a feeling something is going to have to give.

I don't like it, but I have P6. I don't like the fact that it's a must with Bryce and I think Daz droped the ball making it the go between Poser and Bryce. It's Daz's baby, so they can do what they want. I also will keep trying it every so often to see if I have any use for it. So far, No. EF is working on P7? They have Shade 8 out in Japan now I think. Makes you wonder how P7 and Shade 8 are going to work together. Dynamic hair for sure, there are other things as well, I just can't remember.

@randym77- Honestly, I think DAZ may have bitten off a little more than they can chew, with D|S, Bryce, and their core business of Poser content. They're a small company, and that's an awful lot of balls to keep in the air. I have a feeling something is going to have to give. They should concentrate on what they do best (content) and stop biting off more than they can chew. (apps) Bryce has been a major disapointment to me. I passed on ver 5.5 - Not enough reasons to upgrade.

FatCatAlley.net | Now Playing "SpaceCat 5" Parts 1 and 2

D|S reminds me of Poser1/2 as it stands at the moment & I really don't feel the need to go backwards, hopefully when they (Daz) get some more features built in it'll light my fire, if I can get it to work that is.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Wow - it took a while but I read thru it all and "wow" is the only reaction I can give - I have to say that complaining about something that is free is strange to me. Complaining that a company is trying to use giving away free stuff to encourage you to spend money is also strange. Odd though it may seem to some people who have been posting in this thread - companies exist to make money - ALL OF THEM. Anyone who starts a company with the idea that they will NOT make money is in need of a little medical help. And most companies don't give away things like D|S for free. Normally if it is given away for free it's some little tiny thing that is no big deal. They certainly don't have to give it away - heck, they could sell D|S for say 1/3 the price of Poser and they would likely sell a lot of copies and make a lot of money, but no - they give it away. Are they hoping this will cause you to spend money? Naturally - they are a company not a charity. No sales, no paycheques. No paycheques, no employees. No employees, not company. Seems like a simple progression to me.

Ok, I may regret it but here are my thoughts on the things spoken of in this thread:

The question becomes - do you get fair value for the money you spend? Well, I've seen some of the stuff that DAZ sells and it seems to be fair value as far as I can see. The fact that D|S is free seems like a rather nice thing to me. I have it but haven't really had a chance to look at it as I am working hard with Poser 4. I don't know if D|S can do what I need but if it can't, I'd hardly complain since I didn't have to spend any money on it. Still, for many people it does what they want and although you can certainly spend a fortune on stuff for it, the simple truth is that someone who has no money to spend at all is able to get D|S and enough figures and props, etc for free that they can have the enjoyment of doing 3D work - and to me, that sounds like a good thing. Why anyone who be upset at the fact that DAZ wants people to buy stuff is quite beyond me. They didn't have to make D|S available to everyone for free, they didn't need to make figures available - even if you only get the stuff that is available for free there is a lot you can do. Now if you spend money there is a lot more, but why should that be a surprize? And why should that be a bad thing?

As for developement time - anyone who thinks that a year in the works or 2 years even is unreasonable for a product like this, clearly has never worked at software developement - or at least not software of this level of complexity. I've seen big companies which have 100s of programmers working on a project of this size take that long to produce crap [no names offered - I think one potential arguement a day is a good limit to observe and I'm sure if I named comapnies and products there would be someone to champion them - heh]

And although I don't yet know much about D|S, I have to say that Poser is not exactly a perfect product. I love Poser [even if I do only have 4.0] but it has many things wrong with it - things that we Poser users have to learn to deal with and work around. Ever hear of cross talk? I know with P4 it has often been a problem when I'm doing animations with many figures. Or why is it that you can have the pose in frame 14 suddenly go weird when you add frame 50 - even if frame 14 is a key frame for all channels. But you learn to deal with it and you learn to check repeatedly and do clean-ups for time to time. There isn't a program out there in this field that doesn't have odd quirks - I've heard interviews with people working for Pixar [and believe me, next to the software they use even Poser 6 is on the level of a pocket calculator and pad of paper] and they talk about the quirks and problems they have with their vary hi-end software.

As long as one looks at the things that don't work quite right and the things you can't do with the software, etc, etc, it doesn't matter if you're talking D|S or Poser 6 or whatever - it will suck. But if you look instead at what it DOES for you, what is GOOD with it - you get a whole different view. I do animations with Poser [to be honest, until I came here it never occured to me to use it for still pictures - I mean I knew you could, but I could imagine why] and before I had Poser I did my animations by createing single frames in Photoshop - I used multiple layers so that I could reposition parts and use the same layers for a variety of frames or just add or delete the things that changed but even so it took a very long time to get a small sized animation. Poser cut the time down to the point that I am able to work on much longer animations - so yes, it has quirks that sometimes add a lot of extra work that shouldn't be needed, but even so when I compare to animating without - well, there simply is no comparison.

My point? Instead of complaining about what isn't - enjoy what is. D|S is free. D|S allows you to do much more than you could if you didn't have a 3D posing and rendering program. There is lots of free stuff that can be used with it. All of this is good. Is Poser better? I can't say, but it really doesn't matter. I have a friend who got D|S recently - before he got it he had Poser 1 and since his income doesn't leave him anything to spend on hobbies, he was not likely to ever have a better version of Poser. Now he can pose people that actually look like people and they have neat things like actual mouths, eyes, and fingers that can be posed [P1 has none of that] - it means he can do creative things which he was never able to do before. I don't see how this can be a bad thing.

They should concentrate on what they do best (content) and stop biting off more than they can chew. (apps) Bryce has been a major disapointment to me. I passed on ver 5.5 - Not enough reasons to upgrade.

You can't really blame them. At the time they started the D|S project, no one knew if Poser would even survive. That's all changed, now that that they've been bought out by E-frontier, but DAZ had no way of knowing that would happen.

I can understand why they did what they did. Grow or die, buy or be bought. I have nothing against long development, but I do wonder if a small company can afford it. Microsoft taking two years longer than expected to release a product is no big deal, but for a small company, that's a long time to have no income coming in, when you were expecting you would.

With D|S, it's not so bad. It is helping them sell content to people who can't afford Poser, so it's bringing in some money. But you're right about Bryce. I have a feeling DAZ lost their shirt on that one. They must have paid a lot of money for it. They had that goofy "buy a vaporware upgrade now, months ahead of time, or no upgrade pricing" scheme, which they admitted was because they had to recoup some of the money they had paid out for Bryce. Bryce 5.5 was promised before the end of 2004, but didn't make the deadline. When it finally was released, it wasn't that much different from 5. I think 5.5 should have been a free upgrade, given the small improvements, but DAZ probably couldn't afford that. I don't think they have the resources to keep up with both E-on and E-frontier, which is what they are trying to do with Bryce and D|S.

The bottom line is that DAZ (prior to Studio) was almost solely reliant on Poser for its existence, and Poser users for its continued existence. If Poser nosedives into relative obscurity due to mismanagment, DAZ is screwed. It makes sense that DAZ would want to provide an alternate means of displaying their content (on a relative par with Poser). Therefore DAZ takes steps to create Studio, albeit slowly and measuredly.

A couple of things: First, I find the "comparable to P4" claim utterly bizarre, given the list of things (here in this thread) that it still doesn't have. It's a bit like claiming a Notepad clone is "comparable to MSWord 2.0." Most of us aren't quite sure what was in Word 2.0, but if we have been using Word for ten years, we know a Notepad clone is not likely to be "comparable to MSWord 2.0." As near as I can tell from this thread, D/S is still, nearly three years after it was supposed to be completed, nothing much but a front-end for 3Delight. "It" doesn't render better than Poser, 3Delight does. How that makes it "comparable to P4" is beyond me. Second, Studio has been long on unkept promises, and that suggests a poor grasp of the scope of the task (a charitable interpretation). That poor grasp does not inspire confidence in the result, assuming we ever see one. It was supposed to be in Alpha by the end of December, 2002, a few months after the initial release of P5. I can't come up with public statements to that effect, obviously, but those of us who have been around that long and remember those lynch mob days (one R'osity member offered to help P5 folks mount a class-action suit against CL, if I remember correctly), recall Farr's announcement of D/S and its imminence. I distrust people who make promises they can't keep. They are either dishonest or foolish. "Dishonest" and "foolish" are not quite the same thing as "evil," at least in my vocabulary. Car salesmen make ridiculous claims and grope you like their long-lost brother until the contract is signed. That may be "evil," but it's the American Way. Evil or not, it's dishonest, and I try to keep my own dealings with dishonest people to a minimum. I'll pay more to shop elsewhere, and often do. Dishonest people are your enemy; they think of you as prey, however friendly their approach. Foolish people, on the other hand, are ingenuously dangerous, so I try to avoid them too. If Dan Farr actually believed they would have a program comparable to P4 written in two or three months, that was pretty foolish. If he didn't... well, who knows?

If Poser nosedives into relative obscurity due to mismanagment, DAZ is screwed. I sometimes wonder how many users of other 3D modeling/rendering/animation programs would use DAZ and related content if the appropriate rigging was also available?

"Second, Studio has been long on unkept promises, and that suggests a poor grasp of the scope of the task (a charitable interpretation). That poor grasp does not inspire confidence in the result, assuming we ever see one." mickmca: I can understand your definition and your view regarding foolish/dishonest people and unkept promises/delayed releases, etc - however, you do realize don't you that by what you say you condemn pretty much all the major players in the computer industry. Apple has a long history of failing to meet release dates and also a long history of orphaning their old products shortly after bringing out something new. Microsoft has been late on every release date all the way back to the release of DOS and when they do release a product it is at best in a beta stage [they don't call it that but if you look at the level and types of bugs that their products have when first released and the average number of up-grades and patches they have to add - it shows that the products ARE beta test quality when released] Linux producers likewise have long been big on promises and slow on delivery. What does this have to do with DAZ? Different sorts of product and all ... yes, but the standards for judging a company is not limited to the type of product they produce. I'm not saying it impresses me when a company fails to deliver on time on their promises, but it has become the standard of the whole computer industry so it doesn't surprize me. These days people blindly accept things as if it is to be expected with computers - things that didn't used to be acceptable at all and things that anyone with a long enough background in computers knows are simply bad programing standards. So, if you are going to take a negative stand on DAZ for the reasons you give, I hope you are doing the same for Microsoft, Apple, the various producers of Linux, etc. Now if you do judge all of those the same as you judge DAZ - then ok, judging DAZ is fair enough, but if you don't take the same stand with the major companies in the computer industry then I think you are being unfair. Not that I'm saying you don't have the right to take whatever stand you wish, but if the standard is not applied universally it does rather lack fairness. I wish that software developers all the way from the people who write small apps up to those who do OSes and the people who write major apps like D|S, Poser, etc, would manage to put produces out when they say they will and that the products would be fully tested and fixed as needed so that there were no bugs [or at least only rare cases] and the software didn't crash [I started in computers in 1972 working on mainframes and back then the idea of a piece of software which was not in alpha or beta test stages EVER crashing was almost unthinkable but these days it doesn't even raise an eyebrow] however, wish though I might, it isn't the way of the industry. Not the OS developers and not the apps producers - DAZ is hardly unusual in that way at all. They have LOTS of company.

I think Daz is in a bit of an Iffy area, It doesn't want to produce something that is P6 and it doesn't want something to be so far removed that it will seperate it from Poser users (that is until it has enough converts). True sofar D/S has little to offer compared to P6 But consider this, Was P6 a Rushed out? i say this because D/S was released with OpenGl Support and said to be as good as Poser yet P5 never had GL support, Then there are the Minimum advances on P6 over P5, i don't Know if anyone else thinks that there wasn't enough Wow in P6 apart from OpenGL support and AO-IBL (Point lighting) somehow i was expecting a different interface!... And then there is the news of P7 next year? If this is true why release a new version sooo early? could P6 just be a stop gap release? Will we see some of the advances that some Rosity members have requested of P7, I know that if these ideas are implemented into P7 with a 2006 release date i will definately buy it. As for P6 or D/S i will stick with P6 , even with it's memory problems and it's AO artifact problem that keeps hitting me, because i know one day they will release SR4 and fix the whole thing to my liking, as in P5.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

I am always amazed at how emotional people get over things that should not be emotional topics. I read this thread because I was curious whether the current version of DS now had some capability that I was unaware of because I haven't been using the product. Others have come here, with sleeves rolled up, spoiling for a fight as if there is a reason for a fight. Is there any reason in the world to have an emotional response to software other than spending money for a product that didn't do what it claimed to do? I can get livid when I've wasted money on a product that doesn't live up to its claims becaues I can't afford to be wasting money. I can even be mildly annoyed if I waste time with a free program because I only have so much free time to expend on doing 3D art. Beyond that, I have no emotional investment in either Poser or DS. I couldn't use DS on my old computer and the UI was different enough that I don't have the time to relearn how to do something I can already do. Poser isn't perfect, but I've gotten used to it nuances and weaknesses. I wonder if the emotional issue has more to do with expectations and perceptions. I remember the number of people that were so excited when DS was first announced. It was going to be the Poser killer to finally deliver a stable software program that would elevate and make easier all the things that were frustrating in Poser. That was long enough ago that I cannot remember what DAZ said versus what posters said. The one thing I do know is that a lot of people invested some emotional expectation years ago in a software product that was, at that point, little more than vaporware. I'm reasonably sure that those expectations were significantly higher than what DAZ was promising. Much of today's discontent probably goes that far back. Personally, I don't care whether DAZ Studio ever gets out of Beta. It doesn't make me think badly of DAZ. I've read that they only have eight programmers working on the program and that some may be leaving (which shouldn't be taken as a statement of working on the program as much as job opportunities for the programmers). How many thousands of employees does Microsoft have? Is there a week when Windows doesn't require a critical update to prevent somebody from taking over any PC in the country or causing damage remotely to a PC? Microsoft has been writing code for PCs for three decades. Given that the largest software company in the world cannot meet their deadlines or deliver a product without bugs, I'm willing to cut DAZ a lot of slack in not meeting deadlines and can respect them for not putting a "1.0" on the product just so they can say it complete when it really isn't. The bottom line for me is that nobody has said anything that makes me want to invest more time learning DS at this point in time. I'm keeping my mind open for future updates that may make it worth my time. Beyond that, I have zero emotional investment in either program, the delivery dates, or even the companies behind the programs.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

I don't have recent experience with DAZ|Studio. I tried it about 6 months ago, because I got fed up with the limited amount of geometry and textures that Poser 5 could handle. I found out that DAZ|Studio couldn't even handle half of the geometry that Poser could. Two V3s, one Mil Horse and one charger were enough to bring it down, even before attempting to render. In Poser I can handle and pose over a dozen hi-poly figures (which I then render in Vue. Poser can't render them). Add the fact that DAZ|Studio can't do dynamic cloth or hair, and it's nothing more than logical that I ditched it right away. Why use a free Polski Fiat if you already have a paid for Chevy?

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Is there any reason in the world to have an emotional response to software other than spending money for a product that didn't do what it claimed to do?

Yes.

I think part of the reason people get so worked up over this kind thing is that others' choices do affect you. Which program "wins" will determine which one gets support. No one wants to end up owning a Betamax in a VHS world.

Anton's post says it all: the once unified Poser community is on the verge of splitting, with D|S/Bryce going one way and Poser/Vue going the other. There may not be enough customers to support both. Naturally, people get emotional.

"No one wants to end up owning a Betamax in a VHS world." On the other hand, who wants to be VHS in a DVD world? I've been holding off getting a DVD recorder because formats haven't settled down to a winner, whether it's + or - (even though some recorders do both). While I've been waiting for a winner in that format, there will soon be two competing high-definition recording formats supported by different movie studios. At the same time VHS recorders are losing favor and they're harder to find, with fewer options when you have a problem with one manufacturer's quality. The writing is on the wall and I'll have to someday transfer all my thousands of videos to a disk format, but I don't want to do it with a format that will vanish in a half dozen years. Unfortunately, the world is getting more and more fast paced and things will constantly change. There's not much that any of us can do about that other than go back to the woods and leave the technological world behind us. I'm not particularly worried about DS & Poser splitting the community. The split won't happen in a real sense until DS is a serious alternative to Poser. Right now, DS is an alternative for someone who doesn't have Poser or has an older version. DS doesn't yet have the breadth of all of Poser's features. Even if DS can match Poser 1-for-1, that's still not enough reason for a massive switch. For DS to be the dominant posing program, it's got to do something better, and everthing else at least as well as Poser. DS has to do something so much better that a Poser user would have to be awful stubborn not to switch. If that is the case, where is the downside? The big split I see happening is not DS/Bryce vs. Poser/Vue, but in Poser content. Two different rendering alliances, that use the same content, are not going to split the Poser community other than those that have an emotional attachment to the software they use. That's no different than the higher end 3D application snobs who sneer at Poser users for not being as good solely because of the application. I'm not going to be siding with anybody ten years from now who thinks they can make a prettier picture with Victoria XIII in Poser 12 than in DS 7 or vice versa. The killer change in DS that can wean people off Poser will likely be advances in figure content. Although I've never heard anybody from DAZ say this, I have little doubt that the main reason for creating DS is so that DAZ can do new things with their figures that they cannot do with Poser. DAZ is probably making more money from their content than CL is with Poser (just a guess on my part--I don't have any facts). Poser is a one-time expense while content is a forever ongoing expense. Without DAZ having their own Poser style program, they are dependent totally on Poser's future. It's not a good move being tied to another business for one's survival. As has been mentioned, there were concerns for a while over Poser becoming another abandoned program and that would eventually have killed DAZ. Even if Poser continues a long healthy life, DAZ is limited in what they can do with their figures by the limitations inherent in the Poser program and CL has no inherent need to improve those figures. Neither Poser 5 or 6 made any real changes to the figure rigging. New versions of Poser have added some capabilities and provided better rendering options, but the things that make Poser what it is haven't changed much since version 4. If DS adopts new posing techniques that change how Poser content is made, new figure content will not be usable in subsequent versions of Poser unless CL adopts the same changes. That will cause a separation between the two programs. That will take many years to happen. DAZ won't abandon Poser customers until their purchases become too small a part of their business to bother accommodating. That will only happen if the new figures are so much better than the current crop that most Poser users will be compelled to become DS users. I don't see a downside to that if DS does the job right and there is a solid reason to use DS. I'll let the real Poser experts predict what those advances could be. All of that is many years away. DS will probably have a pay version, but will probably be cheaper than future versions of Poser because DS is subsidized by DAZ content. Poser has to earn a profit wholly from sales of the program. Much as I hate to disagree with Anton, I believe that Poser content creators will follow DAZ's lead. It's what the bulk of them do now and there's not much reason to expect that to change, particularly if there are advances to figures that both users and content creators want. Right now, DS has a ways to go to seriously challenge Poser. That's why I'm still not emotionally charged over the two programs. The best or most popular program will eventually win out. That's not a bad thing. It's not as if there will be a 50/50 split. Somebody is going to have the predominant posing software. That's the software that will have the most content.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

DS has to do something so much better that a Poser user would have to be awful stubborn not to switch. If that is the case, where is the downside?

I think the downside is the one you mentioned earlier, with your DVD comments. Until it's settled, people are reluctant to commit.

Even if Poser continues a long healthy life, DAZ is limited in what they can do with their figures by the limitations inherent in the Poser program and CL has no inherent need to improve those figures.

I think you're wrong on that. CL is improving their figures. That is why Jessi and James are rigged like Posette. With the new Poser rigging system, they won't need buttocks groups. That may be as soon as next year, if the Poser 7 rumors are correct. (Remember, E-frontier is a content provider in Japan. They sell figures, much as DAZ does here.)

The way I see it, improved rigging is the obvious next step, clearly the biggest improvement needed. Both DAZ and CL are working on new rigging systems...and they will likely end up not being compatible.

Sounds like this community has a dilemma doesn't it? I think people need to think long and hard on whos hands their passion for this art/hobby's in if there is this much question about either choice...

Is it time to creat another choice? Take destiny into the communities own hands? An open source character posing program that involves this community? It's programers? Just a thought. A lot of programers have become involved in the community over the years.

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

"Until [the format war]'s settled, people are reluctant to commit." That favors CL and Poser because people are reluctant to abandon the format they have for another till they have to. DAZ has an advantage with DS being free because they don't have to sell the software for people to try anything new. Since DAZ is primarily a content provider, they can release new models for it faster and a new rigged model will probably be free to test drive with DS as V3 and M3 are now free. If I can take as a given that DS can be matured to be at least as good a renderer as Poser 6 (or whichever version is around in the near future), DAZ will probably win the advanced rigging format wars and become the dominant posing software maker because they can reach customers, faster than CL, can with updates. CL is tied to an update of Poser and it'll cost $200 to try it without restrictions. DAZ can let customers try it for free and produce rendered images without any limitations on a real, not trial version of DS. I don't care who wins. Right now, CL has the advantage because they've got a mature tested program on the marketplace. DAZ is trying to play catchup with DS. Once DS is on some par level with Poser, DAZ will take the lead because they have a strong content base to work from. I can't picture a community programmed free version competing in the mix. Look how long it's taking DAZ with dedicated programmers to do the job. It's hard to compete with what will in some capacity remain a free program. Besides, look at how often some errant member of the Poser community spits at a freebie provider for not doing what they want or not wholly living up to their expectations. Who wants to spend years of their life working on a Poser alternative and have to deal community members that don't think they're doing it fast enough or doing it right? Whichever future rigging format wins will be downward compatible with current Poser content because nobody is going to support a new format that makes their current runtime libraries useless. It doesn't matter which future format wins because it will be better than what we have now and we'll probably have what we currently have for a good long time. Somehow, it just doesn't seem like something that ought to worry me greatly.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

That favors CL and Poser because people are reluctant to abandon the format they have for another till they have to.

Sort of. But it could also keep us using VHS while they're arguing DVD formats, if you know what I mean. P4 compatible is D|S compatible. You can be compatible with both Poser and D|S - if you sacrifice the more advanced options of both. For that reason, I think Anton may be overly optimistic, thinking P4 support will end with the release of P7.

Somehow, it just doesn't seem like something that ought to worry me greatly.

Well, it doesn't rank up there with, say, peak oil or nuclear war. :-) But surely you can understand why people who have a lot of investment in the outcome - merchants, say, or just customers who have a lot of time invested in learning a program and/or buying content for it - are concerned? And it's more than a format war. If DAZ goes belly-up because they can't make this D|S/Bryce thing work, a lot of us would be affected.

That favors CL and Poser because people are reluctant to abandon the format they have for another till they have to. Both CL/EF and DAZ have made significant contributions to this community, and both deserve to succeed. I doubt that we will see an abrupt change. To have Poser 7 or DAZ Studio 2 come out without support for legacy figures would be a mistake for both companies, and the biggest backlash wlil come from community members that scream murder because of significant investments in addons. Support for older legacy content will probably remain, and then gradually phased out. DAZ Studio and Poser will probably go in different directions, yes, but legacy support will probably be phased out as new innovations are widely embraced.

yeah! What she said! My personal feelings on the issue are here in this particular forum already, though likely a couple years old.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

">>"Even if Poser continues a long healthy life, DAZ is limited in what they can do with their figures by the limitations inherent in the Poser program" No they are limited by their own abilities, not Poser. They have been feeding that line a crap about it being Poser's fault for years." Hee hee. The VERY heart of my particular issue with them lies in that excerpt. I no longer argue the point. (although I just now deleted the argument cause it got me. I'm out)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

It's unethical. Content incompatibility between Studio and Poser is unavoidable. Eventually, yes, you are correct, they eventually must go in different directions. In the meantime, we as their customers (meaning CL and DAZ customers) need to see support for what is already out there on both sides until we decide which of the two programs best meets our needs. As for whether or not it is a rip-off, I'm not sure. Cross-compatiblity is common in software programs. For example, Corel Painter opens native Photoshop files (it has since the beginning). It does a lot of the same things as Photoshop, but it also does its own things as well. Same with Word and WordPerfect (each can open the other's file format). We will probably see Poser format support in DAZ Studio until it has enough of its own community support to rest on its own laurels - mainly because of the investment DAZ already has in Poser-compatible content.

Don't most programs liscense the file formats they import. I would imagine so .. and I am unable to comment on whether or not that is being done as I have no idea. 8-) >>Studio is great for props and Mil FIgures. But it isn't trully able to compatible with Poser4 except in a very basic way. Right ... and that is precisely why we will see it going in a different direction. You can get Poser 4-compatible content in (legacy content), but as for the rest it will have to go in a different direction. We'll probably see legacy (ie: Poser 4 compatibility) support in DAZ Studio 2?? and Poser 7, if only to appease the community ... but after that is anyone's guess.

wait a sec. you don't mean I gotta liek start doing stuff for poser 5 or 6, do you? OMG OMG That's just, like, you know EWWWWWWW!!! All that extra work and stuff for those weird material thingies with nads and the spaghetti and stuff. No!! NEver!!! Long live Poser 4!!! tap tap whisper Oh. um, err... nevermind...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

People can scream all they want. You can't just blantantly rip off another software package because the piblic wants you to.

Anton: I think you are a little confused - being compatable is not the same as ripping off software. If DAZ had ripped off Poser then there would be a law suit, patent issues, copyright issues, etc. Writing a program to do the same thing that someone else's program does and making your files compatable with the other company's files is neither a rip-off, nor unethical, immoral. What is questionable is intentional incompatability. Having more than one product available that does the same thing gives the consummer a choice - which is at the heart of modern commerce. Making those programs compatable is in the best interest of the consumer since it means that to be able to exchange/share/trade work they do not have to buy the program that happens to be most popular even if they don't like it. Incompatability is only of value to someone trying to create an effective monopoly - if nobody can export or import your files and you have a significant percent of the market then you force people to switch to your software to stay compatable - it's a kind of corprate blackmail. So far from making a program that is compatable with another company's program being a bad thing or unethical it is in fact what should be done in every case possible. Oh, and btw, you do NOT need to licience a file format in many cases - it depends on how the creator of the format protected it, but the fact that D|S exists and has not been sued into oblivion tells us that if the format is protected then clearly they have a licience. I mean it isn't as if CL doesn't know about D|S or something. If there was any kind of violation it would have been addressed by now. The fact that DAZ was not shut down proves that such a violation does not exist.

So if Poser is so crappy and limiting, then why on God's green Earth are they copying it? I fail to see how STudio makes figures better???????

I believe the point that has been made here several times [and indeed you even quoted it] is that DAZ began to work on putting out D|S because it was looking like Poser might die and if Poser died, then anyone [like for example DAZ] that had a business based on creating content for Poser would die too - unless they started providing an alternative program for their content to be used in. They didn't make D|S to be better than Poser, they didn't make it switch to better rigging systems, etc, they made it so that the content which they made for Poser would still be viable if Poser dissapeared. They made it so that their fate as a company was in their hands rather than being in the hands of another company. Surely this is not hard to understand? Would you rather have a job that depended only on your skills or a job that depended on what Joe down the street is doing - would you rather get paid based on the work you do or get paid based on what Joe does? I think most people would rather have their fate in their own hands and that is what DAZ chose. Message edited on: 07/16/2005 17:08

"So if Poser is so crappy and limiting, then why on God's green Earth are they copying it? I fail to see how STudio makes figures better???????" They made Victoria, Michael, and all of their older content specifically to be used with Poser, before D|S ever came out. They HAVE to make DAZ Studio somewhat similar just to ensure that their own creations work. :) Also, how could you make a figure posing and rendering program that's really so different from Poser? 3D modelers all say they're different, but I've tried tons of them and they all seem pretty similar to me. Of course, you're right in saying that D|S doesn't make the figures any better though. Now if the next versions of Victoria and Mike use D|S-specific technology, things could change. That's one of the reasons why I want to back DAZ Studio. I would rather know that the primary figures will always work as they should with my software than to have frills I will never use like the Hair and Face rooms. Just curious: can you completely mirror a pose in Poser 6, like what Firebirdz and D&M do with their pose collections? I just learned yesterday that it can be done in DAZ Studio, and was wondering if that's a standard feature in P6. Thanks, SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Not quite sure what you're asking ... do you mean switching right and left sides, or making both sides the same? If so, yes.

Well said FireMonkey. Anton, (I promise not to call you Anson ;) ) let me first say I have always been impressed by your work and yourself ever since the old PFO days, (long before Renderosity) and have a lot of your stuff on my hard drive. I know it hurt getting fired from DAZ, but this vehement attitude of yours against them them is VERY disappointing. I must say I expected better from you. Coldrake

Wow Anton, you've really changed. Coldrake

Personally I think that both e-frontier and DAZ will stick to the .obj geometry format for a long time to come. I don't know if the .cr2/.pz2/etcetera formats are protected. I don't think so, 'cause if they are, most (if not all) merchants and freestuff providers are violating copyrights, and CL/E-frontier certainly would have done something about it. The tricky part is this: D|S can work with Poser content and Poser scenes - as long as they don't use P5/P6 specific options. Poser can not work with D|S content and D|S scenes, not even content/scenes that do not contain anything that's not present in P4. As long as D|S specific content has no distinct advantages over P4 content, merchants will not create D|S specific content - they'd cut out their Poser customer base, and no merchant in his right mind will do that. And even if D|S specific content HAS advantages over P4/PP, merchants will hesitate. We've seen this happen with P5 specific content: it took a long time and a lot of nagging by the community before merchants hesitantly started to make some (the freebie providers took the lead. Kudos to the freebie providers!). So what is going to happen? The most important point IMO is that D|S development started when the future of CL was threatened. Of course DAZ wanted to be sure that there was a program that could use DAZ content! Right now, Poser's future seems pretty bright. And the role of D|S has been degraded to that of a functional free demo - more functional than the Poser demos. If DAZ has been laying off D}S developers, it's probably because D|S development isn't as crucial to DAZ's continued existence as it seemed two years ago. What will DAZ do next? If they're smart, they'll bring Bryce up to date as soon as possible, and convert D|S to a Bryce plugin. That way, Bryce/D|S can be a low-cost alternative to Vue/Poser. Not as powerful, but not as pricey either. Or they could work on a decent Poser to Bryce workflow, like Vue already has. Maybe use the D|S base to create such a plugin. DAZ wouldn't hurt Poser/E-Frontier, but they certainly would become a strong Vue/e-on competitor. Time will tell.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Sorry Deecey, it's harder to explain without a picture. :) I mean to take a figure who's running to the left and mirror him so he's running to the right, with the arms, torso, neck, and head all swapped properly; as if the pose was originally created that way. All I could ever do in P4 was swap the left and right sides, which was useless. SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Ah, I think I've got the visual now, SS ... hmmm, would be nice, wouldn't it?

a little competition can only be healthy for both programs, it's only when one decides to stop the other doing the same thing in it's own way, who knows but D/S may one day be a good product that will make me think of using it for more than just browsing at it's inner workings, but until that day i will stick with Poser

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

SnowSultan: a "complete mirror" isn't built right in P6, but it's easy to do using Python - and it's possible to start a Python script using a pose file. This is possible since PP. And as long as D|S does not support decent scripting, I won't take it seriously.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

"I would rather know that the primary figures will always work as they should with my software than to have frills I will never use like the Hair and Face rooms." SS, ya know I like ya, but, um, err, well, the DAZ figures don't work as they should with the software already. Never have. It was an intentional decision, as well. Not bad, not good, just a decsion. But they don't.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

So they swiched to their own app because they were limited by Poser but don't intend theirs to be any better... Okay. hehe No Anton, that isn't what I said, I said: they made it so that the content which they made for Poser would still be viable if Poser dissapeared. Nothing about being limited by Poser, I said there was a concern that if Poser died [and at one point it looked like it might] then if they didn't have an app that would handle their product, DAZ would die too. They didn't need something better, they don't need to compete with Poser at all really [though it's hard to put the hours in on code and not get a bit competitive] - all they needed [and still need] is to have a program that is compatable with their content in case Poser is suddenly orphaned. If Poser where to die unexpectedly [or even expectedly] for any reason, then D|S would be the only thing available [as far as I know] that all the Poser figures, etc, could work on. It's not a question of being limited by Poser as long as Poser is there - it's the fact that without D|S they would be dead in the water if Poser ever stopped being there.

Ah, thanks for letting me know about the mirroring. You can do it in Studio without scripting, but I didn't know if P6 had it built in or not. One more little reason for me to stick with Studio. :) "SS, ya know I like ya, but, um, err, well, the DAZ figures don't work as they should with the software already. Never have." Haha...er, what? INJ/REM poses work, they pose as well as can be expected from the mesh...what don't they do correctly? SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Studio breaks fingers. Maybe fixed in this last version release of Studio but D|S has done weird things to Unimesh figures for a long time and D|S update beta's haven't always addressed the issues. I haven't used D|S for 2 releases now, just see the posts at Daz forums and elsewhere and tend not to go check for myself. I got tired of being a Beta tester for each new release of D|S. and yet when Daz bought Bryce and put it in the store, 1 week ager their was a Bryce D|S importer plugin. almost 3 years as a beta, but 1 week they can do an importer. Someone said earlier Daz bite off too much, lost focus. oh well, it's a bit moot. Lightwave vs. 3d studio max vs maya. Photoshop vs. gimp. goes away to play Doom v1 in DOS emulator mode on WinXP

"Haha...er, what? INJ/REM poses work, they pose as well as can be expected from the mesh...what don't they do correctly?" IT'S NOT THE MESH! gezz when will people stop saying that. It is the implementation that Daz has chosen to use for thier poser products. Dodger and his Aeon figures has shown that it's not the mesh that is the problem. It's grouping, Joints etc.

I don't think survival is justification for ripping something off You know anton, you keep saying that as if it was some kind of mantra you cling to. Although I'm starting to think it is pointless, I'll say it again: Making a program that does the same basic thing as another company's program is not ripping them off. Making a program that has file compatability with another company's program is also not ripping them off. Let me put this another way - the logic you are using here is the same as if I said that all car manufactorures other than Ford are ripping off Ford [since Ford was the first internal combusion engine car that was made] After all, they all build cars which carry people and luggage, etc, on roads using basically the same engineering principles. They have IC engines, they use the same gas, they have tires that are made in the same general way.... need I go on? And in case you think that they ARE ripping off Ford, then think of this - if Henry Ford had not had any competition there would have been no reason to improve his car. The only reason he started painting cars different colours [he felt black should be good enough for everyone and stood by that for quite some time] was that other cars started being made with a choice of colours and he had to change or lose sales. The reason Ford went to the fully enclosed concept was because others where doing it. Henry Ford himself could not see any reason why a car needed to go much faster than a horse drawn buggy, but he had to improve speed because others were. In short, we would still be driving something not much better than a model-A or a model-T today if it hadn't been for others building cars. If someone decompiles a program and steals the actual code then yes, they are ripping someone off and btw, they could and would be charged for it - it's a criminal offence ... so tell me, how many of the DAZ staff have gone to prison because of D|S? Zero? Oh, guess they didn't do that then. The actual code is the property of the ones who write it [or those they sell it to] but the concept is not. The idea of a program that allows you to pose and render figures belongs to no one. If you are going to insist on beatting that same drum then I susgest you provide varifyable proof that DAZ has stolen something from eF - proof that they are using something they have no right to. So far I have seen none. And the fact that both DAZ and eF have publicly stated that there is no strife between them tends to go a long way towards suggesting that no such thing has happened. Therefore, to continue to imply that DAZ has stolen something [that IS what "ripping off" means after all] is nothing more than noise unless it is backed up with some real proof.

"Haha...er, what? INJ/REM poses work, they pose as well as can be expected from the mesh...what don't they do correctly?" Sticking strictly to the P4 features for which they were designed: Walk Designer Figure Height Default Poses There are other features in Poser 4 as well. Those, however, are the biggest ones. Simply put, a figure that was designed to work with the program would have had those capabilities. They don't. Never have. (and again, lest someone decides I'm bashing: it's not a bad thing, its not a good thing. IT's just a thing. Get over it.)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

"Let me put this another way - the logic you are using here is the same as if I said that all car manufactorures other than Ford are ripping off Ford [since Ford was the first internal combusion engine car that was made] After all, they all build cars which carry people and luggage, etc, on roads using basically the same engineering principles." Um, actually, that is Ford's postion. Has been since 1924, when they sued for infringement of patents on several carmakers. It's also incorrect. Ford was not even close to the first with the IC engine. Ford's contribution to automaking was mass production and efficiency of such. tsk tsk "so tell me, how many of the DAZ staff have gone to prison because of D|S? Zero? Oh, guess they didn't do that then. " well, technically, guess is correct. For one, you'd have to be aware of it. Unlikely you would be. For another, it wouldn't result in jail time for the programmers unless it was established they acted independently. For yet a third, the most likely result would be court imposed financial penalty, not jail time. And, lastly, it assumes that they aren't simply waiting for it to go gold. Since Only EFA can pursue it, and the choice of when to do is strictly theirs, it is not unreasonable to think that they are letting them dig a grave. Thoretically speaking, of course. The point being that, um, ya muffed it. giggles Hell of a try, though.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Well, I'm opposed to DAZ Studio. I don't use it. However, I've been aware of some basic problems with how it treats files that Poser 4-6 have no problems with, problems that aparently aren't going to get fixed (like the 3-polygons with a common edge hole problem), plus other incompatabilitys that deal with how it is coded (like it will not use Joint Setting poses). I think DAZ Studio made sense when DAZ started it, as it looked like Curious Labs was going to go under, but it doesn't anymore. While the idea of a "free" Poser program to get new users into the fold is an excellent, it would be better served by E-Fronteir making Poser 4 free, at P-4 is Poser Compatable, after all. I think DAZ should abandon DS, and devote the energy to something more useful to the Poser community.

Though I haven't used DAZ Studio much (I like all of the Poser bells and whistles too much! LOL), I do feel that there is a place for it, and that it still makes sense for DAZ to go ahead with it. If only for the benefits that good healthy competition offers for the consumer. Without competition, things stagnate. There is no incentive to "make it better" or to "do it different." Competition gives you the impetus to build a better mouse trap, the drive to be innovative, the satisfaction of knowing that you've created something new. And, of course, we benefit from it ... I think it's exciting that things will branch out!

I don't think it makes sense for DAZ to go ahead with it. I think it's too big a project for them. I don't see how they are going to make D|S honestly competitive with Poser, plus bring Bryce into the 21st century, and create and support the state of the art human figures that are their core business.

"the state of the art human figures that are their core business." snort (sorry, but it was too rich an opening*)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Thanks for your replies and for explaining your points of view. I don't quite understand why DAZ figures would fail at "Default Poses" and "Figure Height" though, but we're all pretty divided when it comes to judging DAZ's figures. It's a shame that we're apparently divided when it comes to these two programs as well. They both create the same sort of art and use the same content. SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Well, I think what a lot of people are worried about is that D|S won't use the same content. It already can't (P5/6 cloth, hair, and material room settings are unusable in it, which also affects translation to bryce) to some extent, and on others -- notably content from a lot of folks who don't brkoer through DAZ -- it doesn't import them correctly. For the most part, yeah, they are, right now, capable of using much of the same content. But people hate change. Hell, there's still a bunch of people who haven't switched to 6 because it means having to learn so much more than before. Additionally, only about half of the people who use poser even ever come here, and of them, less than half ever touch the forums. ANd the Galleries are filled with static images. FOr that purpose, D|S is great. It does what most folks who use the program will want it to do. And, free, it increases the potential market size (a critical thing that everyone should be supportive of, really). It does remove that barrier of entry, and, in so doing, might actually mitigate to some degree the loss to piracy. Of interest: Poser Artist is still available. As Poser 4. Not as Poser 5. This is indicative of a potential shift to two separate formats on the part of EFA -- still to be seen, but I'm willing to wager its on the boards. I might niggle about stuff, and I might have a serisou issue with the lack of willingness to be truly innovative when their reputation is built on it, but hell, D|S is a decent proggy. Now if only they'll get that SDK out for free...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Um, actually, that is Ford's postion. Has been since 1924, when they sued for infringement of patents on several carmakers. Yes, and how far did that get him? As for the IC engine, I was meaning used in a viable car - the engine was not his idea and his cars were not the first vehicles that they were used in so technically you're right, but the vehicles that used an IC engine before him were not reall cars as such - at least they were clearly different from what he made. And, lastly, it assumes that they aren't simply waiting for it to go gold. Since Only EFA can pursue it, and the choice of when to do is strictly theirs, it is not unreasonable to think that they are letting them dig a grave. I think you may be stretching it a bit here - is this possible? Yes, it's also possible that EFA has hired a hit-man to eliminate the DAZ staff but I think we would all agree that's unlikely. While it is possible that they are waiting, it would be a very unusual action for a company to wait so long and given the public statements they have made, it would be likely that a court would rule against them now whereas it would have been much more likely to rule for them at the start. You see, if there is evidence that you have 'agreed' to something [not a legal contract - that's only one way to agree - to have knowledge of something and to not take action but to actually continue to deal with the person and make public statements that indicate you are on friendly terms may well be viewed by a judge to be implisite acceptance even though there is no explisite staement] So yes, your theoretical version could be the case, but my suggestion is far more likely to be correct. The only ones who know for sure of course are the people running EFA and their lawyers. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm sorry, which words did I put in your mouth? I know which ones found themself stuffed into my mouth but I honestly don't recall putting any into your mouth unless you mean the fact that I pointed out the "ripped off" is another way to say "stole" in which case I wasn't putting any words anywhere - I didn't create the definition, I merely pointed it out.

"While it is possible that they are waiting, it would be a very unusual action for a company to wait so long and given the public statements they have made, it would be likely that a court would rule against them now whereas it would have been much more likely to rule for them at the start. You see, if there is evidence that you have 'agreed' to something [not a legal contract - that's only one way to agree - to have knowledge of something and to not take action but to actually continue to deal with the person and make public statements that indicate you are on friendly terms may well be viewed by a judge to be implisite acceptance even though there is no explisite staement]" Not in copyright and patent law. "Yes, and how far did that get him? As for the IC engine, I was meaning used in a viable car - the engine was not his idea and his cars were not the first vehicles that they were used in so technically you're right, but the vehicles that used an IC engine before him were not reall cars as such - at least they were clearly different from what he made" Quite far, actually, He managed to shut down 32 companies entirely, recieved royalty paymetns for years from most ot eh others. And the IC engine was used in a viable car before him. Decades before. Ford, in fact, was a late entry in the car making business. Nor did his vehicles appeal to the folks who had been buying them already. They were sorta common, simple things -- not high end at all. (not gonna get there ;))

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I meant that they use the same basic content: figures, poses, props, textures, etc. Of course program-specific features aren't going to work. "And, free, it increases the potential market size (a critical thing that everyone should be supportive of, really)" Agreed, that's why content creators shouldn't ignore Studio users. Only Maclean and a few others have even attempted to cater to the D|S crowd, and most of the top merchants here don't even know how their product works in DAZ Studio. SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

FireMonkey, I wish you would relax. Although I can except that you may well think I'm sitting foaming at the mouth [or other such activities] I assure you I am not. I am quite relaxed actually - sorry if it seems otherwise. I did however find you suggest that I was putting words in your mouth to be a bit odd after you had tried to suggest I had said that D|S was created because they felt limited by Poser - given that I have never said anything that even came close to that. However, I'm not interested in an arguement either - but that doesn't mean I won't express my opinion or point to what I feel are flaws in what others say and it also doesn't mean that when the meaning of a statement gets bent into some unrecognisable state that I will just let it go [well, sometimes I will - it depends] I've never believed in the idea of disagreeing in silence since if no one stands up on a point then it looks like everyone agrees. Sorry if this seems up-tight or hostle or whatever. I think you'll find that at worse I may be somewhat anal about such things but nothing more than that. Perhaps it's a result of many years of debate - I have a habit of keeping track of what is said and going back to it when I feel something is getting obscured or that something I said is being taking out of context. ynsaen: Since I'm not a lawyer it is possible that I may be wrong about implied acceptance - I have some knowledge on the topic but it is at best spotty [and that isn't even talking about the differences between law in different countries - I get the feeling you are in the US whereas I'm in Canada and there is a significant difference in the laws between the 2] As for Ford putting some companies out of business and all - fair enough, but in the end he was not able to have the exclusive right to build cars, which is after all the point I was trying to make. To be honest, I feel that men like Ford and the Wright Brothers did far more harm than good because of their attempts to have exclusivity over a concept. But, as I say, I'm not a lawyer and my knowledge of such things is historical and technical rather than legal and besides that is another topic and one which would take far longer to hash through and has no real relevance here so I leave it not as a challenge of anyone's views but as a clearification of mine. SnowSultan: While I understand what you are saying, you have to realise that since a product made for Poser can, in general, be used in D|S but a produce made for D|S is not so likely to work in Poser [understand that I'm taking the word of others here - so if the information is wrong I apologise] then someone who is creating things as a business rather than a hobby has to ask themselves how much time can they devote to a limited market? It would be nice if they did some, but when you count on your work to pay the rent, you have to put your efforts where they are likely to give the best returns. Not much of a way around it.

"Agreed, that's why content creators shouldn't ignore Studio users. Only Maclean and a few others have even attempted to cater to the D|S crowd, and most of the top merchants here don't even know how their product works in DAZ Studio." I'm not entirely in that boat, myself, but I still don't make things specifically for them, nor will I alter a product which functions fine in poser for use in D|S at this time. This is primarily because the program is in beta. That means what I make might work well in this version, but be screwed up in the next. That's the way it goes with Beta systems. Furthermore, I'm also of a particular mind that I develop things to take specifc advantage of the programs features -- in short, I develop to the program. Doing that with D|S, for me, is problematic since it doesn't run on my system. Nvertheless, I do try, and I have some awesomely talented users helping me do so. Conversely, I'm one of those folks that never had a problem with P5 -- while many merchants were unable to even get it to load, let alone run. Awfully hard to work on something that's not functional, lol. "I meant that they use the same basic content: figures, poses, props, textures, etc. Of course program-specific features aren't going to work. " (giggles) Well why didn't you say that? (just teasing) "but in the end he was not able to have the exclusive right to build cars, which is after all the point I was trying to make." And is why I called your analogy into question. He never had that right. He was never trying to be the only manufacturer of cars. He was trying to avoid being ripped off -- in terms of the method of manufacture. The analogy is based on the fallacy of Ford's erroneous credit fro having built the first cars. My point was that ya chose a really really bad analogy to make a weak and untenable point. It's my nature. I look for stuff like that. That's what makes threads like this turn into nasty debacles instead of reasoned discussions amongst intelligent people. "I get the feeling you are in the US whereas I'm in Canada and there is a significant difference in the laws between the 2" Correct on my location (Southwestern US) -- not so correct on patent and copyright law. There's more in common than not, and the differences are very slight and deal with country specific issues (which, in all fairness, sorta pisses off a lot of canadians since the US sorta strong armed some changes into the treaties, accords, and agreements that govern such).

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

A product made using the .DAZ format is by definition not usable in any version of Poser. And the .DAZ format is proprietary. A product made using the standard P4/PP Poser formats is likely to work in DAZ|Studio. Maybe not perfectly, some glitches have already been mentioned, but at least the products load and can be rendered. This is why most merchants wll not create content in the .DAZ format. Unless they get paid really well to make the product DAZ|Studio specific, of course. Maybe we'll see some "hybrid" products that provide both the .DAZ format and the standard Poser formats. Not unlike existing products that provide separate MAT poses for P4 and PP.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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AFAIK, the only app that can read the .DAZ format is D|S. Since it's a binary format, it's difficult to figure out what means what. It might be possible to write an importer for Poser, or a conversion utility that would convert .DAZ files to .cr2, .pz3 etcetera, but only after DAZ discloses the structure of the .DAZ format - which will be probably at the same time they release an SDK. ETA of the SDK: a couple of months after hell freezes over. Until then, importing .DAZ files into whatever other application will be as good as impossible. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if such an import would violate the D|S EULA - but I might be mistaken.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Poser and Studio.. They may do some of the same things but they are different programs. Somewhat like Paintshop Pro and Photoshop They do the same things use the same files, share filters, and such yet they aren't the same program. I have both. I use both. I like both. I can do things in photoshop that I can't do in Paintshop pro and vise versa same with Poser (all flavors) and Studio. galactron, the best advise is to try both programs and see which fits your needs. Because ultimately it's you using it your way. Not mine or joe blows ;)

Binary format is much more compact. Speeds up loading times. Take a look at .obj files. A text based format, each vertex is denoted as a triple of floating point values on a single line. Count the character positions, that's the amount of bytes that has to be read by the application (I'm not counting the line feed character(s) at the end of each line). In a binary format, the same triple of floats would occupy 18 bytes (6 bytes per float). No more. The application does not have to parse a text line, it directly extracts the floats, which is a lot faster. The text based formats have been designed as exchange formats, easily readable by humans but not optimized for applications.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

I should have said that I hope merchants will add support for their items in DAZ Studio - meaning test them to make sure they work, include MAT poses that apply specularity maps properly, and if possible, try to make their product compatible for D|S users (Wardrobe Wizard, etc). I know that files created in D|S won't work in anything else at the moment; I would uninstall Poser 4 and get right to work on my next set of poses if that wasn't the case. I'm pretty confident that someone in the community will find a way to make it happen though, all of the best ideas have come from the users anyway. :) SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Until DAZ discloses the file structure, I don't think anyone will make a file viewer. I guess we'll have to wait for the SDK. I don't have a clue as to when it will be released. So - no tweaking of .DAZ files like we can tweak Poser files. At least, not for now.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

I should know better than to step into the middle of a fire storm like this, but when I see misinformation and rumors being started and proliferated I feel I should set the record straight. Last night when I saw this thread developing, I wanted to step in then and point out that it doesnt need to be a choice of Poser or Studio but I had other obligations that prevented me from doing that.

First of all, from the inception of DAZ|Studio, we have never positioned it as a Studio vs. Poser product. I tried to look for some of my original posts on the subject but I couldnt figure out how to do it. As I recall, our statements were essentially that Studio would be a Posing and Rendering application. It actually reached that level about 1.5 to 2 years ago. Our purpose for Studio was to provide a tool that would help to expand this community and the DAZ customer base. It is doing that. We have had thousands of new people enter this community by way of Studio. (I know that many of them have even gone on to purchase Poser after downloading Studio.) I hope that we have only scratched the surface in this regard. A larger community will bring larger scale development of products and technology and ultimately more choice for customers.

Why did DAZ develop DAZ|Studio? I think a few of the reasons have already been touched on, but I will hit the highlights (not in any particular order). The first is market expansion (as stated above). Second is the opportunity to innovate and have impact on software that our content can be used in. Third is the ability to offer an integrated solution option for customers (DAZ no longer needs to sell Poser in order to sell our content). Fourth is the ability for other developers to significantly contribute to technical functionality through high level scripting and a strong SDK environment. Not to mention, were enjoying the DAZ|Studio project.

I mentioned DAZ|Studios SDK. A key goal is that D|S be an open and friendly environment to other developers, extensible through scripts and plug-ins. Were particularly excited about this because weve seen what this community can produce even without such tools. Innovations such as ERC by Rbtwhiz and Nerd, Mat Pose files by DAZ, morph injection by Drax, full hand scaling by Michael Lane not to mention the consistent improvement of Poser products (in UVs, joints, materials, morphs, etc.) by DAZ and many, many others.

It is also been great to see how this community environment fosters and spreads such innovations, leading to further ideas and improvements. For example, Ajax helped popularize EasyPose (a form of ERC), Anton helped popularize BodyHandles (although I believe someone else created BodyHandles), DAZ helped popularize morph injection (created by Drax). Its easy to see that weve all come a lot further than any of us could have come alone, and DAZ is grateful to be a part of such an innovative and growing community. In fact, one of the major difficulties in this market is just that theres so much to be done. (This is ultimately a good thing.) DAZ Studio is designed from the ground up to open accessibility for enhancements from developers through an amazingly powerful script ability and detailed SDK.

As a result, version 1.0 has taken much longer than expected to develop. It is much more robust than was the original scope. We have ended up with significant feature creep along with underestimated timelines. We expect that a lot of the noticeable growth will come when the SDK is completed and accessible by outside developers. We also have a few unannounced features that will be in the version 1.0 release candidate.

Someone mentioned above To me Studio is to Poser, what Renda was to V3. Actually the two are very different. DAZ|Studio uses the Poser file formats (as well as other formats), and in doing so follows established legal precedent in the software industry. Renda contained actual code from V3 in her files. This topic could be a whole other discussion, but from all of our legal research on the subject DAZ has strong legal footing to be able to use the formats we are using. And as far as the other functionality of DAZ|Studio being an infringement, unless any of the functionality (posing, rendering, etc.) is covered under patent protection, then we are fine. And if we are in trouble for having this functionality then every other 3D application is in trouble as well.

Taylor Wilson left DAZ a few months ago. For about 8 months prior to his departure, his focus had been mostly on Bryce development and other programmers have been working on Studio. Taylor will be missed greatly but is still offering his help to DAZ for any high level concerns that we may have from time to time. Studio is still moving ahead as planned. I am sure that Posers development will also move along now that its original creator, Larry Weinberg has moved on to Adobe.

I hope that this post will be helpful in clearing up misinformation. I also hope that readers can see that a few people contributing to this topic obviously have ulterior motives in what they are saying. Their history of trolling and harassing DAZ is out there for people to read for themselves. Just look back at other posts where DAZ is mentioned and you will see their messages there, too.

DAZ has never hidden our motives. We are a business. We are trying to grow our business and keep it viable and successful. When we do a sale or promotion we want it to be successful. I believe that the majority of our customers actually like our sales. I sure like finding good deals when I go to stores like Costco, and I like knowing that theyre making enough money to provide more value to me in the future. At DAZ we have learned that our success is strictly based on how well we provide what our customers are looking for (good products and service). If we dont provide what they want, they will stop buying our products. DAZ will continue our efforts to provide the best products that we can, knowing that if we dont we will not remain in business. We love what we do. We love the support that we have found in this community. Hopefully DAZ and E-Frontier will both find success in our respective businesses and neither one will have to fail for the other to succeed.

Sincerely,

Dan Farr
President, DAZ Producitons

I'm mostly concerned about content. As long as the common denominator between D|S and Poser will be the Poser 4 format, many merchants will play safe and won't dabble in the new possibilities of either program. DAZ has been extremely slow in adopting content that uses the advanced features of Poser 5 and now 6. Much slower than other marketplaces. This content can't work in DAZ|Studio. Coincidence?

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

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“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

So Daz has lost hmmmmm Larry (Poser originator), Taylor (The head programmer for D|S & working on Bryce), and Brian (head of marketing) all in a few months time. Nice. I have to get back under my bridge now, my point has been made.

FireMonkey, enough. hehe whatever. I don't care. Nothing personal. Debate with Ynsaen. lol He seems to enjoy your exchanges. Fair enough. ynsaen: I debated on responding to this point as I really am not trying to send things off on some wild tangent but in the end I felt that I should [maybe it's the fox terrier in me ... you know how they can never let go ... heh - no, or at least I try hard not to be like that] Anyway, here goes: Correct on my location (Southwestern US) -- not so correct on patent and copyright law. There's more in common than not, and the differences are very slight and deal with country specific issues Ah... I'm not so sure about that - it depends of course sinec there are international agreements which come to bear in some cases, but I look at the fact that the Canadian Supreme Court has maintained until just this last month that p2p trading of MP3s is not a violation of copyright at all unless there is monitary gain involved. It's the only example I personally know enough about to say anything but it seems to indicate a distinct differance to me. Oh, the court still says it does not violate copyright laws at all, however, as a result of a great deal of pressure from the US, they are now drafting a new law which, if passed, will make MP3 sharing a crime - but even then owning MP3s will still be legal even if you do not own the album they came from [which means that what you have you can keep - I have to wait for the final draft to know if you can borrow CDs and rip them at home for yourself or not - right now it's unclear if that loophole is being left or not] This is something I have followed both in the US when Napster was first taken to court and in Canada from the same point. I am aware of 14 separate attempts by the music industry to get the Canadian courts to chanmge their stand and in each of those the ruling remained the same. In simple terms [which admittedly are less precise than legal terms but I think enough for this purpose] the Canadian courts ruled that copyright was never intended to protect profit margins but rather it was intended to prevent a person for representing an item as their own and to prevent someone who had no legal claim to an item from profiting from it. It further stated that potential 'lost sales' were in fact not a lost by a company at all because there was no way to show that those sales would have occured and that a person gaining a song without needing to pay for it was not a profit within the scope of copyright definitions. Now maybe I'm wrong, but that certainly does not sound like a slight difference to me and although it is directly in regards to MP3s, it is a ruling with significance to all areas of intellectual property where there is no physical property involved [not to suggest that it is the same - only that in does cast a shadow of influence on other areas] I realise that the difference between Canadian law and American law is much less in the area of copyrights and patents than it is in criminal law [where the differences are sometimes quite large] but I really find it hard to believe that they can be called slight given the whole matter of MP3s and the rulings that have been made in that area. Not exactly on topic but since issues of copyright and patent have been a part of the issue, maybe it isn't totally off topic [just mostly] Dan Farr: Thanks for giving some info - I'll have to mull it over a bit but it is always nice to get things direct from the source. I believe I see some pieces to the puzzle in what you have said - details that help me better grasp the whole picture - that's kind of my nature, I hate it when the pieces I have don't seem to quite fit right and so I keep looking until the odd bits that don't seem to fit are put into better focus. Comes from being a monkey - we monkeys are natural puzzle solvers, just can't resist when we see one.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=970361

The link is for the first post I could find from Dan, so I'm not sure if it's the very first post on DAZ Studio, but it appears to be the first announcement here on the program by him. As Dan pointed out, the early post didn't promise the world. It does show how things have changed over time because there are differences in the program initially being envisioned as something to be purchased, not free, and other things that have changed over time.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

MachineClaw wrote:

"So Daz has lost hmmmmm Larry (Poser originator),"

Umm, no. Poser lost Larry Weinberg.

Poser lost one employee in the last few months
DAZ lost two employees in the last few months.
I lost two employees within a month last year. I hired two more. What IS your point? I seem to be missing it.

Coldrake

Factoids without context tend to mean whatever a person wants or expects them to mean. One employee, two employees, more - unless one knows why and how they were lost and what has been done to replace them, it's all just so many words and it means nothing whatsoever. Now perhaps if the reasons were known it might have meaning - but it might not.

byAnton: "So then it is okay to copy Vicki incase she nosedives right?" WHY would somebody want to copy Vicki if she was a nosediving failure? Seems like a waste of time. However, if you're suggesting that Studio is a copy of Poser, than what's the problem? Poser = Good, Studio = Poser, therefore Studio = Good. ;) p.s.- btw Anton, sincerely I love your ideas

Dan, since you're reading this thread...please, please, PLEASE start supporting Poser 5 and 6. Not just in a few products, but across the board. Require it of all new products submitted to DAZ. It's ridiculous that Poser 4 is supported but Poser 5 and 6 are not.

I'm not asking for dynamic clothing or fancy material room stuff. I mean basic support, like P5/P6 MAT files. It's incredibly tedious to fix all the bumps maps by hand, especially for something like the Fantasy Castle, where there are lot of pieces to fix, and it just doesn't look the same without the bumps.

This thread was more interesting when it was about software instead of people. It is interesting to see the length some will go to to try and silence others. Very sad. I am not a fan of censorship, especially by trying to discredit someone, trying to remove credit for their hard work, or by following their comments from forum to forum, thread to thread. And putting the weight of a company to quiet one individual. Best of luck to those who mage to create, contribute and can successfully defend their work and ideas in this climate. I've leaving this thread. I want no part of this circus. FireMonkey, this is why I didn't want you to put words in my mouth. Good job. wink You too Coldrake. Nice. Thumbs up Just remember. If this can happen to me, it can happen to you.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

The best or most popular program will eventually win out. Oh, man, do I wish I could show you some bridge stock I'd like to unload. The only way one can defend the claim that "the best program will eventually win" is to define "best" as "the one that wins." And "best" and "most popular" are night and day. Witness the way the whole computer planet is harnessed to Windows, even though we all hate the bloody stuff, and Macs and UNIX offer better alternatives. And, for the matter, witness the VHS/Beta battle, in which "best" was destroyed by marketing.

The only way one can defend the claim that "the best program will eventually win" is to define "best" as "the one that wins."

I have to agree, and your example of windows is an excellent one although I think most people who complain about it are just venting general frustrations about computers and attaching "Windows" as a focus. I find few people who actually hate Windows, most think MicroSoft is the be-all and end-all ... most, but not all. I find that those of us who have used computers long enough to remember the pre-MicroSoft days are much more likely to say we dislike MicroSoft and actually mean it quite literally. But that just adds support to your comment - most people who use computers have used MicroSoft products from the beginning and have always assumed that if MicroSoft wasn't the really very good then they wouldn't have become so big and because they believe that they support MicroSoft which makes MicroSoft get bigger - totally circular and all based on PR and marketing skills rather than real quality of product.

I still remember when it was extremely unusual for a computer to crash and when it did it was a either a hardware problem or you were running a very poorly written program - and operating systems simply did not crash ever - so yes, winning has nothing to do with being the best, and the most popular also has nothing to do with being the best.

[btw, I've worked with computer for 33 years now, started on mini-mainframes and mainframes long before anyone even thought a home computer was anything other than science fiction so I actually was working with computers when MicroSoft came on the seen and experienced the world of computers before MicroSoft.]

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: DazStudio Vs Poser