Recently I was amazed at how much cheering ans "wow"'s a picture that was not good could recieve...

Do we dare to critisize? Is the amount of comments the only real indication since people don't dare to say it if they think it's bad and even say they do...

ok, maybe i'm blind that I see shortcommings on shots that nobody seems to see, judged by their comments..

Anyway, the core thing I want to say.. on my pics, no matter what culture there is here, please be critical... I want to keep sharp becausde people point me out that me post sucks.. that I can do better, that it could be improved by... Rather constructive critisism in stead of useless aaaawwws.. ok?

come on, hit me, so I can learn!

And if I hit any one of you, it's in an attempt to help, to be constructive... so please bear with me if it sounds harsh and try to understand what I mean.

Warm regards,
Johannes

Message edited on: 07/24/2005 07:42

Coming out and saying something "sucks" without any justification will get you on a one way ticket to TROLLS-ville! You can offer critique and feedback, when members ASK for it, but do it in a tackful way! Because the forums are PUBLIC, you need to be aware the artists/members have made ALOT of close friendships and commments can sometimes be perceived as being TOO negative! When it comes down to it, there are many members who dont feel they are at a level to give critiques, they may view your gallery and just be inspired by an image enough to leave a comment. Hey, theres nothing wrong with this, the galleries are for "sharing" too! THIS forum is another way of getting/giving critiques and feedback...you actually get more in-depth here than in the gallery (IMO). L8r Joe

Thanks for this lesson in RR :) quote: You can offer critique and feedback, when members ASK for it. OK, then this is my way to ask for it! Maybe I should start posting here then. And of course it must be tactfull.. like I said constructive.. and non tactfull can not be constructive imho. Thanks for the response!

LMAO! And here i just came back from a tour in the gallery and i just went, as our beloved friend Americanphotos would have said (remember him,lol), "goo goo gaa gaa" over that collage youd put together. I couldnt agree more with Joe, if you want honest and open critique of your shots i too suggest you post them here as well. P.S. I loved that collage by the way, so i hope you didnt see it as useless "awwwwwww" #;O)

How come we say 'It's colder than hell outside' when isn't it realistically always colder than hell since hell is supposed to be fire and brimstone?
____________________

Andreas

Mystic Pic

it's not a problem to recieve aaaws.. it's a problem it's always aaaw, even if it sucks :) So if your aaaaw is serious.. I'm happy with it.. thank you! If you in fact thought... this rather dull, only interesting for family or something like that... please say so.. ok?

Give yourself some credit will ya. In my opinion, there aint a photo out there that you cant learn from. Family-photos or not.

How come we say 'It's colder than hell outside' when isn't it realistically always colder than hell since hell is supposed to be fire and brimstone?
____________________

Andreas

Mystic Pic

I will just zip my lip and watch... ;)

That doesn't help me :P What do you mean?

WE will always be own worst critics! Again, its all in perception! What you see may not be exactly what others do! Also, remember that the number of comments given is in no way a reflection/measure of how good (or bad) an image is!

Dwelling on the comment thing, will just get you in a non-productive state! That's all you think about...I know this because I was there! I've been on the site for quite awhile and appreciate the comments I do receive! If I touch 1 person with an image...that's good enough for me!

Renderosity is a place to learn...scanning you gallery, I see someone who knows his way around a camera! I for one would value your input or feedback in the galleries and here in the forum!

L8r!
Joe

Message edited on: 07/24/2005 12:16

Hi Johannes.Unless it is something really obvious,like the image is cropped badly,extremely overexposed,etc. I hesitate to offer my criticism.Even when it is asked for.For one thing,I don't see myself as any kind of expert and see myself as a beginner here.And...I have also found that even when asked for,critique is not necessarily wanted.One time I did offer my opinion on something I thought could be improved,and the artist was offended.There is a language barrier here,however subtle it may sometimes seem,and this artist misunderstood my intent.So now I mostly try to find something positive to say about the image and keep the negative criticism to myself.Of course you can always post here and you will definately get the feedback you are looking for.People expect to get that here.Have a great Sunday,what's left of it,and an even better week!-Marlene

Marlene <")

Marlene S. Piskin Photography
My Blog

"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog can cure depression. The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed again." - Jay Leno

hi Johannes! :]

a popular discussion that comes up quite often in all the forums

getting to know who can take it & who can't helps... using the IM to offer suggestions... always balance out a negative with a positive... wish i could leave more in-depth critique on every photo but no time... & those that really catch my eye are most times of the "wow" factor... & some of those i can't help but want them to be the very best they can be & will offer a suggestion or 2

& then there's some that, well... where on earth should you start... easier to not say anything (oh! & if i didn't leave a comment doesn't necessarily mean that either :P hehe)

asking for honest critique in the text under your work will at least tell those, willing to give it, not to hesitate as much

Message edited on: 07/24/2005 12:38

Psssst....Marlene, that didnt stop you from calling my photo "crappy"...LMAO! #;O) Oh, yeah thats right it was in here so it was called for. #:oP

How come we say 'It's colder than hell outside' when isn't it realistically always colder than hell since hell is supposed to be fire and brimstone?
____________________

Andreas

Mystic Pic

Oooopssss!!!!!!Pssst... Andreas.Sorry Swedie.I really hope I didn't offend you....Johannes,nevermind....:)

Marlene <")

Marlene S. Piskin Photography
My Blog

"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog can cure depression. The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed again." - Jay Leno

at least yours was in focus Andreas (swedie! clever, lol) & level & not burnt out & not covered with artifacts... all pet peeves... when it was obviously not the artist's intention to do that... (course sometimes it's just the fault of not knowing how to use the editing program... better cover that in case it gets misunderstood :)

Yep...I saw Zacko's Photography too....and... WonderfulCreation ...suggested it be..."not in Photography"...well bugger Me Days....where should it go???...so...there...I Critique Your Critique for a start...and....it is that,....that I dare to citique...and I will Voice My Opinion against those that want to make Photography a place for just the so called Purists.

DITTO!

Marlene <")

Marlene S. Piskin Photography
My Blog

"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog can cure depression. The down side is, the minute you stop licking, the frog gets depressed again." - Jay Leno

I think most people treat the gallery here at R'City as a place to show their work, much like hanging it on a wall. I don't believe most want any critique of their work. R'City should get rid of the words in the feedback section that read, "Your helpful comments for improving this image:" so there would be less of a question in viewers' minds. If a person wanted a critique, then they could use the WIP forum (I suppose), the related topic forum, or request it in big bold letters in their gallery post. But, I've come to believe the vast majority post to see how many hits and pats they get.

"Your helpful comments for improving this image:" Well said ChuckEvans...yep...that statement which is under all Images...does not Wash with Me...as all are not here to Learn...some are just here for the fun of it...the Companionship...whatever...as anyone who has experienced this "Critique"...once One finds fault....many jump on the Bandwagon...and also find that Fault. Go and have a look at the Person who Critiqued...well....they are sometimes just as Novice...apart from having a State of the Art Camera and a Snapshot Mind. Of course...this is just an Opinion :]

Good point, Tedz...some are here because they just enjoy capturing images, sharing them, and having fun.

& then there's some who don't want the critique & are just here for the fun... so true... you're damned if you do & damned if you don't an option for comments would be nice & has been suggested & noted -helpful critique wanted/not wanted

My "novice" 2 cents... I joined Renderosity to get an idea of how I was doing with photography, learn from others and be challenged. I have received a couple of critique's (aside from those my father posted) and really appreciated the feedback. So, for all of you who may read this, when I say "Advice always welcome" or even when I forget to add it, I really do want advice, critique and honesty! I thought the "Your helpful comments for improving this image" meant just that but have since learned it's not always the case. It is fun when you get positive feed back but it is fulfilling when it comes from someone who's talent you really appreciate and admire. For me, a critique is welcome and becomes my challenge. So there you go. Now I'm off to view, maybe critique or just maybe appreciate what has been posted these past few days. Jackie

Wonderful Creation- I tip my antler to you in thanx for bringing up this comment. I totally agree with what you say and ask many members here that this is also my pet peeve about this so-called "gallery." I use the "so-called" there because it's starting to turn into more of a snapshot sharing service. I agreee- many photos are just mediocre but get that "wow" or even worse yet- a VOTE! The so-called critiques often comment on the subject matter rather than the photo (ie-"cute cat"). One thing that you will also notice on here that it's the same circle/clique of people doing this. And God Forbid if anything negative but constructive is said about an image (yes- I have received hate e-mails & IM's blasting me because I made a suggestion to improve the image). Maybe the moderators should work something up about the critiques here- oh wait- Ive seen that some actually paticipate in the reciprocity.

As for who can take it & who can't... If they cannot take it either- don't post it out there or don't check the box allowing comments.

i've put in a suggestion of comment options: critique welcome (default) advanced critique encouraged critique discouraged comments disabled further suggestions on improving the site are always welcome & they are looked at & personally i do not expect a single comment in return DM but i do show common courtesy

I'm with Marlene here when it comes to giving comments. I just don't have the knowledge to advise and unless you've got all the facts surrounding the shot (type of camera used, time of day, full zoom etc etc) I guess it would be hard to give proper critique anyway. Maybe the experts can even tell this though, lol. When it comes to receiving comments I'm with Jackie and welcome any critique so I can learn from it. Noeline :)

Noeline :D
 
~Predictably Unpredictable~

Ohh took too long to type my message! Crossed with Cindy and DeviousMoose! Sounds good Cindy

Noeline :D
 
~Predictably Unpredictable~

I know you do cyn..... its just frustrating when I see other artists (this is an ART community isnt it?) not getting the recognition that is deserved because of a group that just tends to give each other pats on the back.

I get many comments sent to me about what is written on my main page here where they are discouraged (and I admit that I get discouraged sometimes) because they think their work is good- but why isnt it getting viewed? Then they see the number of comments on that- where the comments are 100% positive (even on that nediocre image).

I will also give a prime example of this. Right this second as I am typing this there is an image ("Still Strolling Around That Lake") that has only 3 viewings (I was one of the 3) I think it is a great image- but above it a couple rows is a cat snapshot (no offense to the photographer) and it has 12 viewings & 3 comments (oops 14 now) and the comments really dont have anything to say about the actual photo. If this is an ART COMMUNITY- we should be artists and act like one.

Hello people :) Glas to hear you're discussing it! Cynlee.. sounds great those options! And to Margana and KiwiMiss.. Maybe you're not a technical expert, nor experienced or whatever.. still if my shot sucks in your opinion it sucks (for you). So if you can define why it sucks (or is not as good as it can get, let me get some more subtle here :D) please do so.. I can definately learn from you.. I wan't be mad... I'dd apreciate it! From now on i will try to give hints for improvement when I see some.. I mean saying a shot sucks is not constructive (though in some cases it might keep people sharp) and will not help anyone. But saying that a lower angle, or more DOF, or a change of pov might improve the shot is constructive imho. and then we start learning from each other and improving thanks to the comments we recieve. I must admit that I go into wow as well.. but at least try to specify WHY it is good then.. like, that's a wanderful expression.. the light is so warm... it verry subtle.. whatever. I'm glad you guys take me serious and even started posting some critics.. it's apreciated! It keeps me sharp if people say it when something could be done better.

it can be difficult when there's an average of 180 individual images posted a day in the photo gallery alone & steadily growing a group that just tends to give each other pats on the back is going to happen, but i don't think it is the cause of others not getting the recognition they deserve there are those who can take the time to cruise the galleries & don't just rely on ebots & some who can not & there are some who like cats over landscapes & some who are only hobbyists & would not call themselves artists... some who can only say wow or cute cat & some who only want to hear that... not everyone thinks the same & that makes us unique... why fuss what people say, if you really want critique, ask for it but if your photo is really good in their eyes don't get upset cuz they can not find fault with it & with that... it's getting late for me... toodles :]

My take on this is: It depends on who it for what I say. I am a hobbyist.I do not know the critique lingo....I do think I have an eye for good photography but do not know as much technical info as I would like. If I say that it could use more sky or that some colour is off...this is on my monitor only. Plus through my eyes only. There is no way I will try to offend anyone by giving critique. I admire each member equally for what they create.If I see many comments that go along with how I think of the image I tend to just say "Impressive". I try to be helpful in critique, but then fall back into the "very nice" category. One reason I do not spend as much time anymore on comments is because there is a lot to do around here, and every image uploaded to view...per night...as I can. All in all though Johannes, I do agree with you.

"The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions."

One thing that I think is being missed here is that galleries are NOT geared or designed for any REAL-WORLD in-depth critique, even if that IS what you WANT! There have been a few times where I gave advice on how to improve an image and the artist actually took this feedback, made the changes I suggested and then reposted the revised version, without any explanation or reference! This made my original comments a moot point and OTHERS took them out of context! I think RENDEROSITY's membership base is a mixed bag, there are those that ARE here just to SHARE and those that NEED to ADVANCE, and require candid feedback to do so. While the site can't be everything to everybody, it CAN set expectations UP FRONT to let people KNOW what they are getting into! I think the suggestions above WOULD make a big different around here! To use an analogy...baby birds would never LEARN to FLY, if their parents NEVER PUSHED them out of the NEST! FORCED them in a sense...to GROW...and SOAR! Constant hand-holding and being overly protective...doesn't get you anywhere! One other thing...this forum is a place to come to and ask for help, suggestions, critiques, feedback... we WELCOME it! Hey we're not all experts, WE want to learn as well! For those unaware, we do hold MONTHLY challenges that you may want to participate in! They do tend to PUSH you and get you motivated...to see things in a different way! You just might want to give them a go! We just might learn something from one another...now wouldn't THAT be something?!?! my 2.5 cents! L8r! Joe

When I get honest criticism and I can see the reason for...that is well accepted and desired. Some images I do have "known faults" to me...and a bit of advice does help. I don't criticise much since I am not that expert. In some cases where a problem is obvious to me then I will speak up. As for Tedz comment of some posters "...having a State of the Art Camera and a Snapshot Mind." ..let it be known for the most part I have a "state of the Tomd'Art camera and a napshot mind", sleeping away from too many "wow" comments and learning to do my thing and live with that in pleasure.

I think, the best way to LEARN is to have a LOOK at other peoples work and to compare different approaches to the same subject! And the best way to 'criticize' and support is to give some positive feedback, to ENCOURAGE people (and not to depict what in your eyes might be wrong with the image, like bad teachers do in front of the class). Of course, if you prefer to discourage people, tell them what you would have done better! If you can't help it, why not do it via IM! - I mean, I do not speak of the forum, but of the gallery. If somebody feels she/he needs advice, help criticism she/he can post the image in the forum!

Everybody has a opion. Hopefully if they find something lacking they can phrase it in a manner that will not offend the artist posting the image. I for one hope to learn from the comments I get. Sure, if I've done something people like, then it is great to hear about that. I also love to hear suggestions for possible ways to make my images better. Or different approaches to take. People need to realize that if they are going to post their work in a public forum, they cannot control what people may say about it. They should be prepared to sometimes receive comments they don't like. I don't think commenters should be afraid to give constructive feedback as long as they are not hurtful about it. That about sums up my take on it. Good discussion everyone.

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

HI All this is an interesting thread for me, seeing as I only started photography a couple of years ago. 1st'ly I appreciate anything that anyone cares enough, to show me the error of my ways, eventhough, they may not be a right or wrong way, but anything is helpful, the main thing I do is take it on board an seriously think about what I am trying to achieve. I never post anything that I would not like John (UK)

Attached Link: The master of butt-fu

I usually only offer criticism when it's specifically asked for. Why? Because I've learned over the years that 90% of suggestions and critiques will be ignored - no matter how gently or carefully or thoughtfully they are delivered. It's NOT because the artist is TRYING to ignore suggestions, either - it's because the suggestions don't line up with the artist's inner view of what they're doing. For example, I once posted a very dark and evil-looking image on photosig. Fully 3/4 of the critiques were "that's too dark and evil-looking" Right! And wrong! So I've found that for critiques to be useful, they should be about the concrete and in response to concrete questions. For example, if I posted an image and asked "Hey, I am unsure about the cropping for this one. Should I bring it in closer or is it OK?" Then my critiquers have a chance of providing useful input in a place where I am really ready to listen. In another forum where I hang out, one guy posted a photo, "HEY! Critiques please!" and basically every single aspect of the photo was wrong. It was overexposed, out of focus, badly composed, badly photoshopped, and the content was trite. Various photographers kept trying to offer advice but in a situation like that, it's pointless. My advice to the photographer was to pick one area to work on and "only change one thing at a time" see if he could attack his problem scientifically. The real trick to offering critiques is to try to separate the technical from the creative and to respect the photographers' creative intent. "Hey, this image looks really blurry but it appears that's the effect you wanted, so you really nailed that part of it. But your photoshop-postwork over in the lower right is blahblahblahblah..." I've also found that a helpful critique is almost always long. Short critiques: - "That SUCKS!" <- useless - "Wow you are the best photographer ever. And your model is gorgeous. Can I have her phone number?" <- irrelevant - "Nice butt" <- yeah, so...? basically a useful critique becomes a mini-essay. Which I am usually reluctant to write unless I know the reader is receptive. Meeting a critique, the same rules apply: - "Thanks" <- useless response to useless critique - "Yes, the picture sucks and so do you" <- more uselessness To meet a critique head on, the artist must be willing to separate their creative intent from the technical details. That's HARD. But I find it makes you a much better artist. "Thanks. This image is blurry and dark because I really wanted a sense of foreboding. The lower right is darker because I was thinking that was some kind of nexus of evil.. but I couldn't figure out the best way to blahblahblah" As I wrote in my article on the master of butt-fu, sometimes the best way to meet a critique is head on: "Yeah, that image is basically all about the model's butt. It's fantastic, isn't it?" Indeed, I find that the majority (not all!) of the times when a critique really upsets an artist it's because they, themselves, didn't really have an internal notion of their own creative purpose, and got upset when someone else misinterpreted a work that they, themselves, had not tried to interpret at all. mjr.

lol! just finished reading your article marcus... refreshing & an enjoyable read! :D i know what i like & by the time i post something, in my eyes it's finished... i do like to read people's reactions, how it makes them feel...& will take any advice & suggestions given into consideration... sometimes i miss something technical but then i am not a "photographer"... i use the medium to create art & would need better equipment to truly get into photography

Amen to that sister, and yes, I enjoyed Marcus' article as well, photos included. ;]

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

It was nice butt :D

And every one said, 'If we only live,
We too will go to sea in a Sieve,---
To the hills of the Chankly Bore!'
Far and few, far and few, Are the lands where the Jumblies live;
Their heads are green, and their hands are blue, And they went to sea in a Sieve.

Edward Lear
http://www.nonsenselit.org/Lear/ns/jumblies.html

(Grasping Chest in Mock Shock!)
Cyn- you said that so well & I agree with you for the most part.... except for the part about needing better equipment.

I see shots coming from compact digitals that are exceptional & on the other hand ones from high-line professional models (like the seems like its ever so popular Canon 20D) that look like crap. remember- we've been thru this too on the forum.... it's not the camera- it's the eye & imagination of the photographer.

Message edited on: 07/26/2005 15:31

don't blow a gasket... i know :P... i was talking about myself... to be able to have better control over lighting, dof & it would be nice to have a DSLR & to use film & my 35mms & control over developing... takes more $ then i have right now to spend... so you work with what you have... sure it helps to have an eye for what looks good btw... finally got to your example... i'm a day behind... saying "i can't believe no one has commented on your pic yet!" seems rather sad... if it's any good at all eventually they will...

Thanks for the well-said and interesting read, mjr. Oh, and the article you supplied as well. ahem This leads me to a question I've never asked and I'll think about asking it in a separate thread/topic.

Well...I just tried out this Critique routine...from an Ex Sea Cooks point of view...not Trained in that either....and...when I did Critique...I said My Opinion isn't worth much...as it wasn't in Cooking either....but....all Comments that followed Mine...never saw the fault I saw....which brings Me back too....My Critique is not worth a Rabbits Arse....so...I will stick to giving the occasional salute and smoochies....and...maybe a *Muuuuuuuuuuah!

mjr...you gave me the laugh I needed today...plus told it how I wish I could, but seeings how I am not a good writer...well...I do build a good set of stairs though.

"The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions."

Without you Doug, people would have to live on the first floor of their homes all their lives. So, we all make our contributions. ;oP

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/~photo/newweb/index.htm

it was pointed out to me we have a very good article already in the photo forum Resource Center (duh)... under >> Feature Article The Art of the Critique - Part One by Alpha well i can't get the exact link... but it's under Features- old article but still valid ;]