dricci opened this issue on Jul 28, 2005 ยท 73 posts
dricci posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 2:32 PM
This really bugs me here. Poser is a 3D app and 99% of the postings to the gallery are 2D Photoshop enhanced. Now, I am not taking anything away from the work people have done using PS. In fact, it is truly fantastic work; however it is not a true poser, 3d render. It is a 2D app that has 3D elements to speed up creating a human form and props. Now I truly get excited when I see a posting that is a 3D "no post work" render and is photorealistic (and no, the realism category has posted images where eyes, lips and teeth get pasted in from PS). I think we need to call a spade a spade and change the categories for poser and give some credit to the Merchants for their fine work with morphs, texturing and to artists that strive to get realistic renders.
mateo_sancarlos posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 2:42 PM
How would they check to see if the image was actually unretouched? It represents another administration headache for an overburdened staff who may not have the necessary skills to spot a retouched image.
dricci posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 3:06 PM
Good point, however, one experienced at photoshop and/or 3d texturing/shading would be able to tell. And that would only hurt the said artist's credibility to post such an image.
aeilkema posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 3:08 PM
Mine are truly 3d most of the time. At times I just cannot get around postwork (for certain effects only) and I do add all my comic balloons & text outside of Poser, but I don't really call that postwork. But, all of my images posted here except for SpiderZ are not postworked at all, purely 3D, either Poser (the later images) or Vue (the older ones). But I tend to agree with you. It especially bothers me when people post Poser images in the Poser galleries that have not been rendered with Poser at all or have been very heavily postworked. On the other hand, I think everyone is free to do as he/she likes, but to see a true Poser gallery would be great.
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randym77 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 3:43 PM
I think it's a good idea. I have nothing against postwork, but sometimes, I want to see what can be done with Poser, not what can be done with Photoshop.
The honor system would be good enough, I think. It's not like a contest or anything. I doubt the people who are heavily into postwork would even want to post in a no-postwork gallery.
TrekkieGrrrl posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 4:02 PM
I was once a Poser Purist. Hardly ever did any postwork on my pictures. Then I started. I began slowly to enhance things like lights and larity. Then added some softening filters and nowadays I SOMETIMES end up using as much time on postwork than on the render itself. But is it less Poser for that reason? If you'd asked me 1-2 years ago I would have shouted out a big, resounding YES! Now I'm not so sure. Is it "cheating" to cover up a poke-thru? Or to smooth one of Poser's wonky knees or elbows? or lighten some parts that got too dark because, let's face it, Poser's lighning is ... strange. Or, for that matter, change the picture from colour to black and white? The base is still Poser. Besides, and this is probably the main reason why people post their pictures in the Poser gallery and not in Mixed Medium - the Poser gallery get wayyyyyyyyy more hits than the Mixed Medium gallery. Try posting a pic in MM and see for yourselves. I've tried it. It was depressing. We post pictures here in order for other people to see them, right (and hopefully comment on them) - if that wasn't the reason, why post them at all? Or just post toem in your own, private Photobucket- or whatever gallery. We want hits. And the Poser gallery is where you get that. And if I knew how to get people to look at my pics in the MM gallery, I'd gladly post them there. But right now, I post them where the possible viewers are.
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kawecki posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 4:12 PM
I never do postwork, what is rendered it's posted will all the errors and mistakes.
Stupidity also evolves!
randym77 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 4:26 PM
I doubt a "no postwork" gallery would draw viewers away from the main Poser gallery. Most people would still post there. But for those who are annoyed by postwork...there would be another option.
wolf359 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:12 PM
This subject again???.....Yawwwn the purists are better off starting there own website they can park it right next to the websites where you have to model and texture everything yourself including all props. and the use of any premade content is "cheating"
randym77 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:23 PM
I don't see anything wrong with this request. They aren't demanding that postworked images not be posted to the Poser gallery. They're asking for a gallery of their own. Why not? The Poser gallery is so huge it could use some subdivision.
dricci posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:25 PM
To Mr. Yawnn I have been using Poser since 1996 and back then you didn't even have "conforming" hair. And until recently you "had" to use Photoshop or painter to be even in the ballpark to having a decent image. But now 3d artist's have an abundance of resource material for skin, hair, mesh, lights, and shaders to create almost anything in entirely in a 3d app. As an Executive Producer for 2 New Media Design companies, I can tell you a render imported into Photoshop/Painter, becomes a 2D layer based, color blended 2d image with endless possibilities and effects. This is well beyond the capacity of even a high-end 3d based app such as Maya Unlimited or 3dmax. I myself like the challenge of pure 3D rendering. I make a living with PS, so I can tell you it should be a separate category within the "Poser" Header. You just cant compare the two when youre competing for views.
SamTherapy posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:30 PM
Considering Poser started life as an application for artists to draw/paint/rotoscope from, I honestly believe the question is redundant. I like to do non-postworked images because I'm interested in what I can get out of Poser. When I started using it I figured that it was the best way to learn how to squeeze everything out of what is - on the surface - a very limited package. Nowadays, my images usually have some postwork, generally compositing due to Poser's memory limitations, however, I'm not at all against postwork if that will produce a good final image. When it comes to producing artwork for anything other than my own pleasure, I'll use any means necessary. From a technical point of view, I'm interested to see what people can wring out of Poser without adding to the image elsewhere but when it comes to what makes a great picture, I don't really care. My main interest is in the artistry involved.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
randym77 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:35 PM
From a technical point of view, I'm interested to see what people can wring out of Poser without adding to the image elsewhere but when it comes to what makes a great picture, I don't really care. My main interest is in the artistry involved.
Exactly. And this site is for learning as much as it's for displaying pretty art, isn't it? I think a Poser-only gallery would be educational.
SamTherapy posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:38 PM
"I think a Poser-only gallery would be educational." From that point of view, I definitely agree. I would not like to see a place where Poser Only equates with inherently better, though.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
randym77 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:44 PM
I doubt that will ever happen. Do you really think creating a "Poser only" gallery will suddenly mean no more postworked princesses in the Hot 20? Get real! People's tastes won't change.
dricci posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 5:47 PM
I just think that a "No Postwork" catagory within the Poser gallery header would be cool. :0 ... enough said for me..... my baby's crying.... peace all
wolf359 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 6:17 PM
Well ive been using poser since fractal designs poser2 and photoshop since version 2 Before layers. im glad to see both programs have progressed as they have Consider putting a "no postwork" header in all of your image titles then those who are so inclined will no they are about to view a "pure" poser image. it seems to me that very few people really care about this debate when they visit the galleries they are more interested in story, moods, intent.humor or even the genres of the peices they see what i find tedious about this "request" is that it crops up regularly here. undisturbed by the reality that renderosity has no means to police such a gallery short of having members submit their images for some draconian forensic pixel by pixel examination to look for" anomolies consistant with post manipulation" not ALL post work is obvious They would of course have to have established some "baseline" definition of what a "pure" poser render actually is. one agreed to by the community as a whole. with different Baselines for Poser4 render poser4 with third party light sets, poser5 "firefly" poser6 IBL oh!!! and poser6 IBL using third party HDR images that did not ship with poser6. and lets not even mention python scripts like "real skin shader" any testing "standards" short of what ive described will constantly be challenged as being arbitrary and subjective replete with accusations of favoritism and cronyism by those disgruntled artists who had their work declared "impure" by some elite "star chamber" jury panel. not to even mention the inevitable faction those who actually got approved. constantly demanding a "reexamination" of other "pure renders" that they feel look "too good" to have not been post worked. so yeah when i think about the REAL WORLD implication of trying to establish such a gallery in this community it makes me............yawn .
randym77 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 6:22 PM
Well, look at it this way. If they get a no postwork gallery, maybe this issue will stop cropping up here and boring you so.
LostinSpaceman posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 6:24 PM
I think you should take your vitamins Wolf. You'll have a lot more stay awake energy. ;) Just teasin' because I think this thread's putting me to sleep too.
dricci posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 7:19 PM
Let me ask you this, what are your thoughts if you have an image in the poser gallery under the genre: Realism... and you have a poser face, Koz hair, but the eyes, lips, eyebrows and eyelids are actual pasted photo-elements by a talented PS artist.... Now, myself, I would hire them on the spot. It saves me big $ instead of hiring a model for just a head shot layout, but for renderosity it should not be in the poser gallery unless under a 2D genre.....
It really is a 3D app if you like it or not.....
Message edited on: 07/28/2005 19:20
onimusha posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 7:51 PM
I think there should be a category for Poser No Postwork. I think both postworked and non-postworked pieces are valid and have their place. I would find it interesting to see what people can do with no postwork... Similarly, a postworked gallery would be equally interesting...
mateo_sancarlos posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 8:39 PM
It opens up a whole new area for Poser detectives. First we had people saying they created new textures, which Poser sleuths determined were just cut-and-pasted from earlier textures. Next we had "modellers" who used various Daz or Poser models and tried to resell them as new models, only to be exposed by Poser detectives. But now we can have artists saying they didn't do any postwork in order to reap their richly deserved accolades from the 3D snobs, only to have Photoshop experts zooming in at 400% to show where the pixels don't match, along the lines of the famous "Fake Detective" on the web, who spots fake photos of celebrities.
FlyByNight posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 8:41 PM
I'm not a purist but I do try to avoid postwork as much as possible, simply because I got Poser so I wouldn't have to do any painting, too time consuming for me and with my diabetes my hands tend to go numb if I spend a lot of time using the mouse. Besides, I suck at postwork anyway. I do fix the joints and bends when needed and apply a softening effect from time to time depending on the image but that's about it. I guess that's still considered postwork though. Oh, and I don't do realistic, I like my fantasy stuff.
As much as possible I like seeing what I can get out of Poser. Pretty amazing little application.
Message edited on: 07/28/2005 20:44
FlyByNight
bjbrown posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 9:51 PM
You can create whatever artwork you want, and if you want to use no program except Poser, that's up to you. (By the way, is a Poser plug-in cheating?) I just don't get it that some people want to attach some sort of special air of superiority over not doing post work. Are you proud of the fact that you didn't do everything you could to make the picture look as good as possible? Are you proud of the fact that you don't have to learn another skill? Are you proud of spending hundreds of dollars on products to achieve effects for no extra money in the Gimp? Are you proud of spending hours to hide a poke-through that you could have removed in thirty seconds in post-work? Create your art however you want, but don't disparage someone who doesn't it a little differently. If you want a nothing-but-Poser gallery, go ahead if you have the support for it, but the superiority attitude is sorely misplaced.
dricci posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 10:20 PM
To bjbrown,
You are Misinterpreting the point, we all love the artistry in poser post work, it is truly cutting edge and beautiful. I myself am not attacking poser painters; they are some of my fav artists. What I am saying it's equally difficult to get a 3d figure rendered in 3D space to look realistic. This is the ongoing quest of CG in TV & Film. Look at the Hulk, awesome CG but we still have a long way to go (I am not comparing Poser to Maya.)
About your comment on if you do a straight render, you don't possess 2D PS or Painter skills, now that is a superiority attitude, I make a living on PS and After Effects and personally choose not to use it when I am rendering in Poser.
Message edited on: 07/28/2005 22:21
elizabyte posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 11:32 PM
How do we define postwork? How about color correction/constrast adjustment, is that "okay"? What about something minor like smoothing a badly bent joint, is that "too much"? This just highlights once again the absurdity of having the galleries arranged by program. You get people who don't know if their image which was set up in Poser, rendered in Vue, and touched up in Photoshop is in the "correct" gallery, and people upset about "too much" postwork, etc. Fact is, it's meant to be an art site, not a software site. bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
1358 posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 11:52 PM
I use postwork because it gives me an image that I want to portray. Postwork could also include non-Poser items from Handspan or Daz, or whoever, because in the purist mind, they did not ship with Poser. Poser doesn't do all the work for you. You need to do something with it. In essence, if you morph a target, it is no longer the original that was shipped, and therefore, it's modified, and post work had been done. This is such a narrow field. It reminds me of going to a Science Fiction convention and having squads of people wandering around declaring which Star Trek costume is authentic or not.
elizabyte posted Thu, 28 July 2005 at 11:55 PM
It reminds me of going to a Science Fiction convention and having squads of people wandering around declaring which Star Trek costume is authentic or not. LOL! One of the funniest things I've ever seen was a t-shirt with a Klingon phrase on it, which translated to: Get a Life. :-D bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 12:19 AM
LOL ......
sixus1 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 12:22 AM
I think that a "Poser - No Post Work" gallery is a great idea. Why ? Because some people want it. Doesn't make anyone's artwork any better or any worse for post working or not. Doesn't need extra moderation or anything like that.
Later,
--Rebekah--
BTW--what is my idea of "Post Work" ? When an image has been rendered out of Poser and taken into another application to alter it. Although I wouldn't count resizing or making an image web-ready.
Message edited on: 07/29/2005 00:24
oliveramberg posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 1:29 AM
Reminds me on the True-Metal discussions over here in Europe. What is true and what not :-) Wasn't it about making art? Poser may be the core of a picture - but honestly - most of the Poser-Only-Images have a lack of artistic feel. Most of the people even render their Poser-scenes in different apps. Is this still Poser-Only? I guess not. Look over the other 3D-Artists working with Maya etc. They do postwork as well. So I think there isn't really a need for such a gallery. By the way - who is able to judge if an image was really rendered with poser and not with another app - or better said, who's interrested spending time with this?
Argon18 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 3:30 AM
Attached Link: A better attempt at Pleasing the Purists
I thought Snow Sultan covered that subject fairly well, if ppl wanted that many separate categories and genres that's where it would lead. If you want to call a spade, a spade then his ideas probably have more merit than the present system.
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wolf359 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 3:49 AM
Attached Link: Purity????
Pardon me , but how does importing a background picture from Bryce qualify as a "pure" poser render???Message edited on: 07/29/2005 03:49
Casette posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 4:29 AM
The ridiculous threat about poser purity again... Wolf, youre a Big Bad Boy... mwhahahahahahaaaa :D
Message edited on: 07/29/2005 04:38
CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
elizabyte posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 5:39 AM
Pardon me , but how does importing a background picture from Bryce qualify as a "pure" poser render??? Oh, THAT's okay. It's just NOT okay to do any actual, you know, artwork. ;-P bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
Casette posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 5:59 AM
Pfffffff...
Art is Art. Rosity need ANY system to categorize it, so logically into POSER folder are artwork based in Poser. A subsubsubsubsubcathegories is as ridiculous as... well, see the pic of SnowSultan, is just this ;)
I vote NO for a "Poser - no postwork" cathegory
Message edited on: 07/29/2005 06:02
CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
The-Preacher posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 9:11 AM
Well, I've been using Poser for a month or two seriously, trying to make something out of it. I think you all know how difficult it may get to make a good render with certain poses and scenes. Making a category of 'pure poser renders' would be like putting the vegetarian food on a different 'carte'. I mean hey.. It's still food now isn't it? Nobody has to like what some others like, and vice versa. So I say do your postwork postworkers, and do your so-called pure renders pure-renderers. So what? Like the picture or not? Who cares how you did it? Do your own art... do not compare it. This isn't a race... This is about self-expression... you know... so called 'art':)
elizabyte posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 9:14 AM
This isn't a race... This is about self-expression... you know... so called 'art' Which is precisely why organizing the galleries by program used is frequently counter-productive. bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 9:34 AM
Bonni, You are missing the point. A 3d render, is a 3d render. If you import a background rendered in Bryce or Vue, it is still a 3d render, for Bryce and Vue is a 3d app, you have to use Materials, textures and basic modeling to get the desired effect. It's not so easy, few people know how to use, or try to use, shaders or materials in Poser or Bryce. The quick fix is PS. The no postwork genre would not be a threat to your "Art" it is just about 3D technique , same as skills needed to paint in PS. One form does not take away from the other. You are way too defensive.
elizabyte posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 9:47 AM
I'm not missing the point. I GET the point. I just happen to think that basing a gallery on what program was used is a silly way to organize it. MY opinion is that art should be artful, and what you use to get there is secondary. That's only my opinion, and I don't really give a damn who agrees with it or not. I'm not "threatened" in the least. I just think and have always thought that organizing galleries by program is not a good way to do it. It actually is possible that people can have a different opinion while still getting the point, you know. bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
Argon18 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 9:53 AM
Attached Link: A category for everyone
So instead of just Poser: No postwork, it's just 3D apps: No postwork? Sounds as good as, Poser: Resizing and signature added only. But why stop there? Might as well go on with Poser: NVITWAS, Poser: Nude Female pasted onto Beach photo or Poser: Victoria with friendly Dragon
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dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 10:00 AM
I give up, it's like beating a dead horse..... let's just close this thread............... please
templargfx posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 10:01 AM
Why not just add a no-postwork catagory? is it that big a deal? we have a work in progress catagory...
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
Argon18 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 10:14 AM
That horse has been dead looooong ago and been resurected to be beaten with frightening regularity. I'm not sure why another category is necessary, since a lot of them overlap now. If you want to make image that way go ahead and put them wherever you think they fit. If the difference is so important to you, I'm sure you can spot the ones you want to look at
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templargfx posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 10:43 AM
I'd like to be able to view just those that people have set as no postwork, instead of having to go through page after page after page after page skipping over those that are obviously postworked. I'd like to be able to increase the amount of thumbnails per page in the galleries, this would also help with this problem for me.
TemplarGFX
3D Hobbyist since 1996
I use poser native units
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 11:08 AM
Argon18, A 2d image and a 3d image are 2 different animals like it or not; it's like comparing apples and oranges. One does not negate the other though.... look at Eroticartist, she uses the 2d category on her work. Now I am not suggesting that, I and others would like to see a no post work genre within poser, so we don't have to weed through all the PS stuff. Is that to much to ask... obviously it is, by all the static.... Wow
Argon18 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 11:24 AM
Actually, since if you're going to make that distinction then sculpture is 3D and all the images here are 2D. If you're going to compare apples and apples then get it right. It's only the illusion of 3D through various means that finish in a 2D image no matter what apps you use. If the difference is so important to you, I'm sure you can spot the ones you want to look at ppl don't strictly follow the categories we have now so you'll going to have to do some weeding no matter what, like it or not.
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svdl posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 11:27 AM
The main problem is the exclusivity of the galleries. I'd like to be able to mark the apps I've used to create an image - usually that's Poser and Vue, sometimes 3DS Max. Sometimes touchups in Photoshop, always "save for Web" in Photoshop. Never a complete painting over a Poser sketch render - I can't paint that well. Same goes for categories. Currently I'm working on a series of images that illustrate a story. What category? Story/sequential sounds like the logical one. The series is intented to be humoristic (and from the comments I gather the humor is quite succesful), so should I categorize it as humor? The story revolves around the great pinup work by prog, should I categorize it as pinup? And it runs in a fantasy world, with magic, sword & sorcery, should it be in Fantasy? It should be in all four. But the exclusive system 'rosity uses prevents this. I would LOVE to see a change here. I would love to mark the different apps I use to create an image, and I would love to mark the different categories the image belongs to. It would also be a great help in filtering the galleries. I'm mostly interested in Bryce, Vue and Poser, and in the fantasy, story/sequential and humor categories. The way it is now I have to change the filter 9 times to view what I want, with a "checkmark" approach I can set the filter to display all the posts I'm interested in at once. It shouldn't be too difficult to implement. And it'll satisfy the "no postwork" lovers (of which I'm one!) - just filter out Photoshop and PSP and you're done. Just my two cents.
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bjbrown posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 11:39 AM
Filtering options and different thumbnail options make a lot of sense. Those two things would be friendly to any dial-up users who avoid the galleries because those slow-loading thumbnail pages use up far more time than it's worth. I have no idea though how easy or hard it would be to set up, and whether or not that has been suggested and rejected in the past.
gagnonrich posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 12:50 PM
Attached Link: Etch-a-Sketch
It doesn't bother me if there is a new category for Poser-No Postwork. It probably won't get many hits and most people will want their images in the gallery that gets viewed the most--that would be the current Poser gallery. The No-Postwork gallery will be new because it's doubtful that any moderators want to spend weeks culling postworked images out of the current gallery to make it pure Poser. I'm really siding with the posters who don't think it makes much difference. Anybody who's used Poser for a while can fairly readily spot what's Poser and what's postwork. There are very few images in the Poser gallery where Poser isn't front and center. There may be some postwork to smooth over the rough edges that Poser can have. There aren't many images where Poser is buried under postwork. After all, if the artist could paint well enough that Poser isn't needed, Poser wouldn't be used. I basically consider Poser-only images as being somewhat akin to Etch-a-Sketch art. It's amazing that somebody can create real art on the toy, but the skill that allows them to do that can readily transfer to pencil or pen & ink work and could be completed much faster and more reliably and not have to worry about being jostled and erased. Poser-only artwork is a similar kind of curiosity. It's fun to see how far somebody can push the program, but there's eventually a wall that usually isn't worth going beyond. Spending hours working on lighting, that can be made perfect in a couple minutes with a color correction in a 2D graphics program, doesn't make much sense on a continual basis. It might be worth pushing a few times to learn how to use lights better, but constantly trading efficiency to go a Poser-only route leans towards obsessiveness. As each version of Poser improves a little with each release, it doesn't make much sense getting too hung up on intricacies and workarounds to flaws in the program if there's better ways of fixing them. The time spent pushing Poser's weaknesses could be better spent learning a better way of fixing the problem. Poser weaknesses may be fixed in a later version and all that time, trying to work around them, will have been wasted whereas learning new techniques in an image editing program has a greater payoff in Poser and other 2D illustrative work. Poser's a great little program, but it is by no means the best 3D program out there. It's really not worth spending too much time fixing a quirk with Poser when a fuller 3D application doesn't have the same problem. A Poser-only image usually looks unfinished to me. I've seen a few that are quite impressive, but more often than not, Poser-only images could be made better with a small amount of postwork. The one area where I would like to see more Poser-only work is in before and after images. It's interesting to see what a heavily postworked image looked like coming out of Poser and seeing how the artist improved the original raw image. The couple times I posted that topic, it got almost zero response, so I'm sort of alone in finding fascination in seeing the image that the artist started with. If enough peopel feel a great need to have a No-Postwork gallery, that's okay by me.My visual indexes of Poser
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svdl posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 1:18 PM
That's funny. gagnonrich mentions efficiency. For me, efficiency in lighting means setting up the lights in the 3D app based on physical correctness. Easy and fast. At least, easy and fast for me. I would spend hours in a 2D program getting the color correction right. So I'm not going to waste my time with a 2D program. 2D is not necessarily better than 3D. Ever tried to do a realistic motion blur in a painting app? I prefer to have a 3D app do the mathematics for me. Fixing pokethru? I use a magnet. Fast and easy. Water? I'm rather bored by the the same Photoshop filter I see over and over again. Reflections? Raytracing is the fast and easy and accurate way. Flowing clothes? Dynamic cloth. Paraphrase of post #50: It's really not worth spending too much time fixing a quirk with a 2D app when Poser can do it for you. That said, I have a great respect for artists that can really enhance a Poser render using a 2D app. But I also have great respect for artist that can use Poser (or any other 3D app) to create images that are outstanding by themselves, and where postwork would only detract from the quality.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 2:06 PM
gagnonrich
The suggestion is for a "NO Post work" sub-category under the Poser Gallery, so views would still be the same.
And you are correct; it is much easier to use a soft brush with opacity to create volumetric lighting, then to create gels in a 3d program. But, when somebody achieves that effect, using a 3d program, it is spectacular. It is cutting edge technique that's making its way into TV & Film.
Now, Poser doesn't possess the same flexibility and power of Maya, but it does dominate the human form. It is not an easy task rigging a Human mesh from scratch in Maya, so Poser is a valuable asset, limited as it may be.
Look, you said it yourself; you think there is nothing to a Pure 3d render, because of software limitations. However, you also acknowledged that you have seen "some". And I bet knowing the limitations and yet seeing it achieved is, pretty cool. Check out FS's texturing, now he's pushing the boundaries of No Post work. And really, how naive is it comparing Poser to an Etch & Sketch.... I'll bet 99% of the people that use Poser don't even know what a Blinn is. It's like someone not utilizing layers in PS. An app can be basic or complex, it just depends on the knowledge of the user, just ask Face-off.
Message edited on: 07/29/2005 14:08
Message edited on: 07/29/2005 14:09
wolf359 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 3:02 PM
its naive to think you are going to somehow be held in higher regard by gallery viewers because your renders are straight from poser with no after adjustment. if you are not able to compete for hits with others who "finish" their images where poser left off. then perhaps you need to re-examine your artisitic approach as a whole
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 3:23 PM
Excuse me Wolf, I do fine on my own, and it's you that are saying " a higher regard" not me. Please re-read my prior postings, I hate to repeat myself over and over. I do not want this to get into a flamming match, when it doesn't need to be. End of story...... We really need to end this thread.
KarenJ posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 3:35 PM
I see some interesting suggestions here. Yes, this topic has come up time and time again, but never to my recall as a suggestion for a genre (sub-category). The thing to consider here is that genres are applied to all the Topics - so we'd end up with not only Poser>No Postwork but also 2D>No postwork, which might not make a lot of sense. I also really like Steven(svdl)'s idea about having multiple selections available for one post. The only potential problem I could see with that would be people picking all the sections in an effort to get more views. So we might have to limit the selection to, say, 3 main topics and 3 genres within that. I have brought up both of these suggestions to the Admin team and I am hopeful that both will be implemented (although obviously the multiple selections idea would be a more major change, so would take a lot longer.) Thanks to everyone participating in this discussion for keeping it pretty much respectful. It's good to exchange opinions without feeling you have to "convert" others to your viewpoint :-) Karen Poser Mod
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
svdl posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 3:45 PM
The majority of the work in such a change would be converting the records for the existing images. The mechanism for multiple applications and multiple genres is in place: just use the same technique as for the product credits. That way it's also easy to limit the amount of applications and/or genres.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
kawecki posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 4:19 PM
I don't do postwork not because am a purist, I have no need to do it. I think that is a good idea to hace a category for no-postwork, it can be useful for newbies and for people to discover what can be done with Poser without any need of postwork. There no need for moderators to check if are or are not postworked, some artist maybe cheat, but most of them will not. A postworked image can be nice, can be beautiful, but always looks artificial!
Stupidity also evolves!
Argon18 posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 4:44 PM
I like the checkmark idea, that sounds like it would be an improvement over the present system. But I very much doubt it would eliminate the need for weeding out the images you want to see since as much as they overlap now and ppl have trouble choosing a category to put them in, how is that going to be different with 3 catgories and 3 genres? Doesn't that multiply the chances for mistakes in classifying them? As svdl pointed out, a lot of images fit into a lot of them at the same time and although more options are always preferred, I doubt that's going to solve dricci's problem since you're always going to have to do some weeding out of images no matter what, like it or not. because no system of is perfect
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gagnonrich posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 4:47 PM
My visual indexes of Poser
content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 5:13 PM
It's funny you mention etch & sketch, I just trace lines from a photo using Painter 7, then add the line properties, Chalk, Pen, etc.... takes next to no time at all and looks the same if not better, because you have more control of the image. As a sketch artist, I would be happy for increased production and upset for purity.... Same thing for illustrators, its really easy to abuse the Trace Command in Ill or Freehand, I know, I do it all the time, but I have dead lines....
kawecki posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 5:15 PM
The global illumination of an image will depend on the monitor and the monitor settings. What you see in your monitor is not necessarly the same as other person view in his monitor. You can correct in Photoshop the illumination to look good in your monitor, but it can look not good in another monitor. Some images look better in one monitor and others in other monitor. And if you print the image is another nightmare!
Stupidity also evolves!
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 5:44 PM
svdl posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 5:52 PM
The majority of the work was done in Freehand. I'd say that the 2D gallery would be the most appropriate.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
dricci posted Fri, 29 July 2005 at 6:34 PM
I totally agree with you SVDL. My example was taken to an extreme. However, some Images in the poser galleries do have 20+ PS Layers. And that would be a double standard if I wanted to post my image in the poser gallery. Anyway, I off to grab a Friday Pizza and spend time with the family... You all have a great weekend. Peace Y'all
kawecki posted Sat, 30 July 2005 at 2:51 AM
There are some images that you don't know to which gallery belongs or don't fit in any category, so put them in any place you wish, nobody will kill you.
Stupidity also evolves!
Casette posted Sat, 30 July 2005 at 4:46 AM
Folks, the discuss is nice... but I leave it now. I need to apply some layers in Photoshop to a render in Poser6 with a background in Bryce, two scanned graphics and a photo, besides a hand-painted wall... ...and I dont know where the hell I would post it... (joke. I insist. I believe we dont need this cathegory) And well... for cathegories lovers probably you need more tags for your work... take a view at deviantART, you have hundred of options. All my work is cathegorized as (breath): deviation>digital art>3-Dimensional Art>characters>rendered of course I know it now... but the first time I spent more time to find the F***** cathegory than the one I spent in draw it... You love difficult things I propose only two cathegories: 2D and 3D Or better: ART and NO ART (heh)
CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
Casette posted Sat, 30 July 2005 at 5:00 AM
(or we can CREATE The Holy Inquisition of PURE ARTWORK: -PURE 2D (Hey!! No a damned touch of PSP!!!) -PURE 3D STUDIO MAX (Have you said 'Poser', dude?? Let these DAZ models far away from me!!!) -PURE AMAPI 3D (the world is my oyster) ... ) :D ... really sick. You cant take in mind that people non-artist that watch artwork arent interested in if IS 100% PURE X-SOFTWARE/MEDIUM ... they are interested in if THEY LIKE IT OR NOT
CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
mickmca posted Sat, 30 July 2005 at 9:07 AM
I suppose the strangest thing about this discussion (but strange doesn't make it surprising; when you've seen one platypus, you've seen them all) is how determined the nay-sayers are to put words in the mouths of others. I didn't hear anyone cite "purity" as the reason for a No Postwork category, and most of the denigration of others' work came from the postworkers, sneering at the Poser folks. I don't see any sign that any other gallery claim is policed, so why raise that bugaboo when it wasn't proposed in the first place? For me, there are a handful of perfectly good reasons for having a No-Postwork category. First and foremost, there is the fact that 33% of the 9000 "New Releases" are tagged "Poser." Since there are about 60 categories, that's a bit like walking into a Woolworths where 1/3 of the merchandise is in a department called "Stuff." Big help. Personally, I would welcome a way to filter out the eternally adolescent repetitions of Vickie naked this and that with melons, but that's another story. Ironically, most of those are no more likely to have postwork than is bathroom graffitti, so a policed "No postwork" requirement would leave me stuck with more of them. But you know, nobody said anything about "policing" the categories except to respond to the no-votes' false charges. My guess is, the bathroom book cliches will end up in the mainstream Poser category, to get more "sharing." One reason I don't go to the galleries is that I don't have the time or energy to slog through 3000 "New releases," 12 at a time, to find the rare interesting image. I appreciate it that Target is organized so that I can find what I'm looking for, and even when I'm just browsing, I can skip women's lingerie and the gun counter. The second good reason is that for all the high-toned carrying on about art (9,000 new works of art a day?), there should be a place where we can see what our tools are capable of. Why not? Poser 6 has a bunch of new tools that I'd like to see in action, used by someone who has mastered them. That is what I go to the galleries hoping to see. I appreciate SVDL's comment on fixing your Poser renders without postwork. It's not a question of purity but of efficiency and skill. Why give beginners the impression that a project can't be finished in Poser when the reality is that the limitation is the artist's skill, not the tool? A marble sculpture with polymer on the gouges and a nose reattached with epoxy may be good art, but it's mediocre craft. As for all the ridiculous logic chopping about what constitutes "postwork": it's not an issue requiring that much thought. Of course we can't settle all the nuances. So what? It's not like we're giving prizes or sending the impure to camps. The category is arbitrary and self-monitoring. Someone posts an excited boob with realistic beads of sweat, and someone comments "How did you do the sweat?" If you don't care how they did the sweat, fine, move on to the latest bondage harness cliche. Personally, I'd be more interested in the technique, having seen more than enough wet fruit. Either the answer is credible, or it isn't. If the artist lied, the viewers react accordingly. "Postwork" means adjustments to the render. If you found a way to make a background photo blend seamlessly into your render, great; that's not postwork, any more than using a great texture would be. If you popped the contrast in Photoshop, that's postwork. If people want to rail at you because you added a caption balloon or resized the image of converted it from TIF to JPG, let 'em. This is not the quest for the Aryan genome, folks. M
raven posted Sat, 30 July 2005 at 12:44 PM
'This gallery is primarily for images rendered within Poser itself. Images of Poser figures rendered in other applications are still welcome, but what's the challenge in that? See how well you can do using its basic rendering tools!' Straight from the horses' mouth (the Poser gallery header), requesting what I would interpret as pretty much pure Poser works. As it says, it's a challenge :) BTW, I don't postwork as I'm poo at it! :)
Avalonne posted Wed, 03 August 2005 at 8:16 PM
Ok, I am gonna weigh in on this one. Straight out of the box Poser images are not usually very pretty unless the user has an incredible amount of talent and patience (I know one of these). But I see images in the Poser Hot 20 that are so postworked as to be almost totally unrecognizable as a Poser work. THOSE are the ones that piss me off. Ok...someone uses an action from PS? I do this myself...but if it doesn't alter the image other than the lighting, who the HELL is to say that isn't nearly pure Poser work? We need to know where to draw the line is all. And if you use another proggie to render your image, or enhance it in any way, that is NOT Poser!!!!
svdl posted Fri, 05 August 2005 at 6:08 PM
I agree with Avalonne. For images in the Poser gallery, the majority of the work should have been done in Poser. I have seen magnificent paintworks in the Poser Hot 20. Magnifient works of art, but not Poser art. Wrong gallery. But quite a few artists set up a scene in Poser, render in Bryce or Vue, and then paint in clothes and/or hair. What gallery - under the current system - would be appropriate? Some artists combine several Poser renders in Photoshop or PSP to achieve the final image. What gallery? My own works - most of them are set up in Poser and then rendered in Vue. Sometimes a few touchups in Photoshop, fixing a bad joint or a rendering glitch. Some props built in 3DS Max, then Poserized. The majority of the work has been done in Poser and Vue, so should it go to the Poser gallery or the Vue gallery? If I could mark multiple apps, I'd mark Poser and Vue. Those two together represent over 95% of the work I did on the image. Drawing the line is not easy. When does a postworked Poser render stop being a Poser image and start being a 2D image? I can't say. Is a Poser render with painted hair and added lens flares and volumetric effects still a Poser image? Is a Poser scene rendered in Bryce still a Poser image? We need a system to categorize. The sheer amount of images uploaded everyday requires a system. But I think we need a better system than we have right now.
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
elizabyte posted Fri, 05 August 2005 at 11:22 PM
I have seen magnificent paintworks in the Poser Hot 20. Magnifient works of art, but not Poser art. Wrong gallery. I do a great deal of postwork, using Poser only as a base, and I post in the Poser gallery. (I don't consider it a "challenge" to do work 100% in Poser, I consider it a waste of my time, because I can do so much better by fixing stuff and painting things in after the fact, BUT that's just my own perspective.) I post in the Poser gallery because I won't post my work in the "Mixed Media" gallery. I don't do mixed media. I do digital, which is ONE media (yes, I come from a traditional art background, and I know what "mixed media" means ;-). Mixed Media refers to the actual MEDIUM, not the "program", not the "rendering engine", not the "style". Digital is digital, and that's what I do, and that's all there is to that. (I don't care what the blurb is on the gallery, something that is 100% digital is NOT "mixed media".) If people are pissed off by my digital paintings, well, sorry about that, but perhaps they should find something more meaningful over which to take offence... ;-P I think we need a better system than we have right now. I agree absolutely 100% percent. I've thought this for many years. bonni
"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis
Casette posted Sat, 06 August 2005 at 3:31 AM
Oh, finish this bored thread. Do you want a "ONLY POSER WITHOUT POSTWORK" cathegory? Please, mods, open it!! And go away there all you with your purism :P Im interested in draw pics. The important matter for me is the results: I think on a pic in my mind, not on "I want no postwork in this pic". Sometimes I need postwork, sometimes not. To cathegorize my artwork is a detail out of importance. I dont understand such passion in people to cathegorize things until madness... really SnowSultan is very near with cathegories that some people would need RIDIKKULO !! :D
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"