Well, some of you know me from back in the day of Poser 3 and early Poser 4 as Richard Kane, but my real name is Robert. At the time, I came up with a lot of morphs for the old Poser Dork and called it Mr. Chaney, man of a thousand faces. I also ran a website callled Virtual Heroes and helped create a lot of the great comic figures for the older Poser stuff. Then ...well... bad stuff happened. But now its all better and I am back. I just purchased Poser 6 and I want to dig right in again! My question to you you guys is, what would you say the most versatile figure is available? For guys we have Michael 3, David, Maximus, and good old reliable James. For gals we have Victoria 3, Stephanie, Aiko and Jessi Now let me know if I missed any (I am sure I have, I just got back into Poser and don't want to leave anyone out) I would like to hear you guys honestly give me the pros and cons of each of the figures in your opinion if you have tried them. Let me know as it will help guide my future purchases and where I will be going morph crazy. Many thanks.

M3 and V3 are probably the most versatile, because they're the most popular. That means they have tons of clothing, morphs, characters, etc. Especially now that they are free.

David is my favorite. He morphs and poses much better than M3. I love him to pieces. But he doesn't have as much support as M3.

Ditto Steph Petite. She's my favorite female, but doesn't get as much support as V3.

Apollo looks really interesting, but I haven't bought him yet. I want to see how much support he gets first.

I don't care for James and Jessi. Their proportions are quite odd. Inhuman, even. Especially the arm proportions. They are so odd that it makes posing difficult.

Aiko and Hiro are really appealing characters, that have a lot of support. Though meant as anime figures, they have a "realistic" mode that's, well, a lot more realistic looking. They also have extremely expressive faces. (I guess it's easier to do that with toonish characters.)

My favourite male figure is Mike 2. Favourite female is the original Stephanie, even though the model isn't very hi res and has some bending problems, it's a great looking figure. There's a free morph addon called Stephanie Max, which really boosts the model. Incidentally, Mike 2 and the original Stephanie are the same mesh.

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Good to know. Another question. Which models do you think I would get the most variety out of as far as making different characters, clothing the characters differently and finally posibng them in many different extreme poses (i.e. combat, dancing, action, etc.) without running into joint problems?

Take a look at Apollo Max. He's rigged very differently. Anton has done some very original work with his joints and such. He bends very well.

The drawback is that he is new, and he's not from DAZ, which means not as much support as, say, M3. His rigging is so different that ordinary poses don't work for him. Wardrobe Wizard supports him, so you can convert clothing for him, but it's not the same as having M3's large, ready-made wardrobe.

IMO, you aren't going to find one figure that's ideal for everything you want. Most of us several different figures these days, and I think you'll want to do that, too.

Male - Apollo Max - lack of clothing can be corrected via PhilC's Superb utility Wardrobe Wizard clothing converter. Drawback is body setup is different enough that he requires specially made poses. Female - V3 - I love the look of several others, like Neftis's Elle, and so on, but the existing product support base of morphs, clothing, poses, textures, etc make her the most versatile as is. Drawback is she tends to look mostly like V3 without substantial work. Take a little time and cruise the several main marketplaces here, at DAZ, RDNA, Content Paradise, IW4d, PoserPros, Animotions, 3dCommune, PoserWorld, etc, etc, etc. as well as the galleries and see what's being done with each. and get a feel for them all. Probably the Native Poser figures and DAZ Milfigures (series 2 & 3) would find the most appeal currently, as I'm sure they have the largest market share of existing users, so any new assets you make for them would have the biggest chance of a large user base. The new original free figures from several sources (Content Paradise, Sixus1, etc.) would be worth considering also for the same reason - more existing users.

To tell the truth I'm a little dissillusioned with Wardrobe wizard... I think it is coool and worth the money especially if you have a lot of clothes already to convert, but the reults can be a little bit less than perfect. Anyway V3, For a female model (I personally prefer S3, but she has less clothing by a huge margin) and M2 for male. M3 is a fine model but M2 is a bit easier to work with and probably still has more stuff available. Apollo looke technologically to be a great advance..... Just like Dina was.... but well... Likewise there is little support, at least for now in terms of clothing.

I kind of agree about WW. I'm not disillusioned with it; they said upfront that the results would not be as good as clothing specifically made for a figure (or adjusted in a real modelling program by someone who knows what they're doing). But it is a certain amount of work to convert clothing, and I'd rather buy clothing that fits to begin with. So I don't think WW really solves the support problem. Plus, it doesn't convert everything. If you're doing superhero-type comics, the lack of masks, gloves, etc., will be keenly felt.

IME, there's really not that much stuff for M2. A lot of the M1/M2 stuff has vanished. M2 does have a more "superhero" default body, but the cool new stuff is for M3 and David.

But it depends on what you're hoping to do. If you can make a lot of your own stuff, the lack of support for older or non-DAZ figures may not bother you. But if you're hoping to make things for others to use, M3 and V3 are best. DAZ is giving them away free now, and their free DAZ|Studio program has brought in a ton of new users who don't know a thing about Poser, and don't own Dork, Don, or James.

Actually I've been using James a lot.

"Actually I've been using James a lot." Me too. I find his head/face extremely "flexible" in the face room. His body needs some extra work to get morphed out of it's default state though.

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I like his face, hate his body. Those arms!

But the main obstacle to his widespread acceptance, IMO, is that he's completely unavailable unless you own Poser 6. All the people who are using P4, PP, P5, and DAZ|Studio cannot get James or Jessi (unless they shell out big bucks for P6).

CL should really consider selling the figures separately. But they clearly want to move people away from older versions of Poser. They are apparently selling their new figures at CP in P6-only format.

"But the main obstacle to his widespread acceptance, IMO, is that he's completely unavailable unless you own Poser 6." Yeah, but in the most resent polls as to what version of poser people were using, the majority was actually P6, and then P5.... it was VERY surprising to me, given the number of long time poser users.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Nice to see you return Kane, hopefully you're back for good? Things sure have changed in the last 6 years... I mainly use the Daz figures, mainly from a financial point of view.

FYI: The 3dCC evovled into Animotions.com, you might want to check it out... some old ghost files still haunt there. "SturkWurk" Doug Sturk

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I don't see the prob with James' body, Then again I'm OK with stylized figures... IMO though he has a pretty realistic build, as does Don.

DAZ are in the last day or two of a sale, with an extra discount in the form of DAZ vouchers which will be handed out Wednesday. Consider DAZ Platinum Club too. If you want to get the non-free DAZ figures and morph packs you should get them now. Here's an interesting little bit of info: there's a Pony-tail hair package available at Platinum Club price for V1/V2. And www.rendervisions.com has a free conversion morph to use it with V3.

Yeah, but in the most resent polls as to what version of poser people were using, the majority was actually P6, and then P5.... it was VERY surprising to me, given the number of long time poser users.

But did the poll ask about DAZ|Studio, and was it posted in an area D|S users would frequent? There are lot of D|S users who don't own any version of Poser.

I don't really recall, but since the original post was intended for P6 use, I wasn't too concerned with my reply. And I have a hard time believing there are more DS users already then Poser users. (Especially when many of them upgrade to Poser 6.) That might actually account for the higher number of P6 users in the poll.. people who started with DS, and wanted to upgrade, and just bought the most recent version available.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I doubt there are more D|S users than Poser users, at least if you consider all the corporate-type users. But I think D|S users are now a pretty decent chunk of DAZ customers now, and they're increasing buying here and visiting other "Poser" sites.

They don't have to be a majority to be important. Even if it's only, say, 25%, it's significant. If you're a merchant, and you can make something for V3 that potentially everyone can use, vs. something for Jessi that only P6 users can use...the money's with V3.

Nobody has mentioned this but there is a new Poser Python Script available that makes clothing virtually universal. It's called Wardrobe Wizard so if you can get that, you can clothe all the characters mentioned here quite easily. Lots of clothing that is available has already been analyzed from the original figure (say V3) and you can download that and then apply the clothing to say Mike 2.

Actually, Wardrobe Wizard has been discussed in this thread. See posts 5, 6, 7, and 8.

On Wardrobe wizard, you can do this even though they may have different joint parameters and the like?

Attached Link: http://www.philc.net/

Yes, you can, as long as the figures are supported by Wardrobe Wizard. And Phil and Cindy are adding more figures to the already-long list all the time.

However, there are limits. The converted items will be a little lumpy. There's a "smooth" function, but generally, the conversion still doesn't look as good as the original. It is a lot of work, especially if there are "ghost parts" - skirts, trailing sleeves, capes, etc. Those can't be done automatically.

There's a demo version of Wardrobe Wizard you can download and try out. It will convert among the P4 and P5 figures.

The support for this program is terrific. All you need is a version of Poser that supports Python. (PP and above.) Unlike many utilities, it works on Macs as well as PCs.

I am not a modeler. I'm also not good with conversions of things. I have successfully clothed SP3 in a nice suit that once fit M3 by using the free version of M3 to convert from and using SP3 for the convert to. As for less than perfect results. I've got a whole runtime of stuff that fits the figure it is intended for in a much less than perfect manner. It happens with new products and converted ones also. I do find WW much easier to use than Clothes Converter or The Tailer (both of which I could never get to do anything).

It's not the fit, so much as the lumpiness (which is understandable, given the vast change you're making in the geometry, with only magnets). And things like suits, IME, are much easier than things like skirts.

It is a great program, easier than Clothing Converter and more powerful than the Tailor. But, IMO, it's not the answer to the lack of support problem, any more than dynamic clothing is. Useful in some situations, certainly, though.

Males, M2, Don & James are the best. James would be the best of them all if he wouldn't use inj, but both Don & James lack content, so M2 is more versatile. Women, V2 for sure. I do like Jessi and Judy (EJ) too, but they do have the same problem as Don & James. M3 & V3 are horrible to use since I do hate inj and such.

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I would say V3 and M3 are definitely the most versatile as there is so much stuff out there for them.

I recently bought V2 as well because I discovered that there's a lot of free clothes and other things for her (and with Daz's big sale you can pick her up for a super low price if you're a Platinum Club Member). Runtimedna has a lot of great freebies for V2. Plus, her morphs are built in, and she renders quickly--a big bonus in my book.

I have M2 but so far I've only used him once. I've heard that he can use David's clothes, textures, and morphs. If so, that would be great and make him a lot more versatile.

I only recently acquired Stephanie so I can't say much about her.

I'd put Aiko on the very top of my list as most versatile. I didn't think much of her when I bought her, but I've come to love her. I use her more than V3. Her face is so expressive, and she renders so well. And there are a lot of packages out there for her too. Daz is really pushing her and Hiro so there's always new stuff coming out for both. The downside about Hiro is that most of the packages produced for him so far have been Oriental or fantasy based. I'd love to see some more every day clothes for him.

As for Apollo Maximus. He's a fantastic figure. He renders quickly and is easy to use. The downside: there isn't much in the way of clothes, hair, or poses for him yet. I don't have the time to make my own clothes or to mess with the Wardrobe Wizard.

I have Laroo and The Girl as well, and I wish there were more products for both.

As for Jessi, I think she's the ugliest Poser model that I've ever seen. I'm not in a big hurry to render her.

Bobette Bryan

M2 and V2 are the most versatile out of the box
and have a wide ethnic variety in thier built in
morphs.
I use them excusively
with wardobe wizard for clothing them
the unimess figures are too much hassle IMHO with the injection bullsh*t

Apollo MAX looks good with clothes on as a "normal guy" figure
but is not suitable for Comicbook hero/warrior type males
his muscular geometry is not even close to being anatomicly correct
with no separated muscle groups he doesont really "muscle up" he merely puffs
and Balloons like a human air mattress.

I've heard good thing about David as far as the unimess injcet/remove figures go
buty im personally sticking with M2/V2 for my poser renders/animations

Message edited on: 07/31/2005 17:29

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i notice no one is mentioning capsces' morphs. frankly, they're what make a figure truly versatile, imho. v3 doesn't have any capsces morphs (sigh). m2 has boris, v2 has roxanne. m3 has brom. aiko 3 and hiro 3 have kioki and hitoro respectively. and this is my opinion about the versatility: if you're doing superhero comics, the most versatile add-on item you need is the catsuit. aiko's and hiro's are the most advanced: they come with hoods, gloves, gauntlet parts, etc. and aiko's arms bend miles better than v3's. m3 has more stuff than david, but his morphs aren't nearly as good. david bulks up much better than m3 does, and bends better. i've also seen many more realistic characters out of david than m3. aiko and laura have better shoulders than both v3 and s3. so v3 and m3 have a lot of clothes, but almost no custom morphs (none of the unimesh crew have many compared to v2 and m2). m2 and v2 have tons of freebies, including several custom morphs and textures. on the other hand, most people now use v3 and m3, by far, and so they make most products and freebies for them. apollo maximus just went off sale, unfortunately. he does bend exceedingly well. capsces just made a morph set for him, too. for me, he has too little definition to be useful (just look at his lats and you'll see what i mean), but i think he's a good solid choice. if i were going to do a superhero comic, i'd probably go with a3, hiro 3, david's morphs (transferred to hiro using morph manager, yes i know they won't be perfect), steph petite's morphs (transferred to aiko 3 using morph manager) and the freak with head and body morphs, brom morphs (again, transferred to freak with mm) and get all of their catsuits. and still get wardrobe wizard, because it converts to morphed characters. frankly the use of wardrobe wizard seems to be an art. i've seen people post conversions from p4 to a3 that were, to my glance, fairly perfect. i've also seen people post conversions with lots of wrinkles and oddness in the mesh. i'm still not sure what the difference is. that said, philc gives excellent support and advice. if i were going to make superhero products, i'd probably make them for both v3 and a3, and m2 and m3. jessi and james have the only faces in poser whose defaults remind me of actual people. i'm not huge on their bodies, but i kind of like jessi's stylizedly narrow waist. i think what you need to do is this: weight varying "versatilities" for your purposes then compare. like: realistic body: someone actually used real-life comparisons on proportions and s3 came first, then a3 close behind, then, way behind, v3, with jessi being off the map (see this post in the daz forums) body morphs: not sure on this one, there's a lot of versatility out there for just about every figure from dork to hiro - it all depends on the look you most want to acheive head morphs: ditto posing and bending: don't forget to check out glamo rous jessi - $6 at http://www.contentparadise.com by jim burton, and probably one of the best character's out there in terms of bending. unfortunately, she's also lacking in most of the other areas because she's so specialized. textures: the unimesh crew can share, with imperfections showing in details like nipples and lips catsuit: what kind of morphs does it have, what kind of material zones, etc. - check out daz, they're all on sale until the 2nd general wardrobe: v3 and v2 are probably neck and neck, though i'm betting p4 gives them a run for their money. personally, i think the guys are all kind of in the same boat. no guy has tons of stuff. the main stuff i can think of off the top of my head that's m3 specific is the stuff that came out at his launch. d3 has a few things that are specific to him. as does hiro. i think, mainly, guys are just neglected. and just to muddy the waters a bit, here's my memory on add-ons: eternal judy and eternal posette (sold here) for judy and posette are really nice looking. ej improves judy's mapping in terms v2 texture support stephanie max - free - i'm not sure where to get her anymore - expands the versatility of the stephanie figure glamorous, supermodel and ingenue vickies - jim burton's products have a particular body type (usually thin and long torso-ed) and have all sorts of bending improvements built in - see daz nea and domus: improvements on the p4 characters. i believe nea includes yamato's joint improvements, which make p4 bend better. they have new morphs, smoother heads, and domus doesn't look so, well, dorky. i believe you can get both at possette forever the tenten series: check out yamato's poserpenthouse site for customized characters for the mill girls, v2, and a v2/judy hybrid. oh, and the character on the home page is xinxin for aiko 3 (custom morphed head). a3 is getting a lot of support from several japanese poser users. custom morphs: as i mentioned, capsces does great head and body morphs which are very cartoony when used in full, but used at a lower strength can really make great realistically ethinic characters. her v2 and m2 morphs are here, her m3, a3 and h3 morphs are at daz, and her apollo maximus morphs are at runtimedna (as is apollo himself). wyrmmaster is still doing the whole wasp waist, round breasts morphs - he has 2 sets at daz (check out the millenium deformers set - some of his previews could give image characters a run for their money, and i think this is the only one that includes males). he also has several sets here. posermatic has some realistic breast size and movement morphs here in the marketplace. blackhearted has custom morphs for s3 (steph petite) and the mill preteen girl that totally change body and head. netherworks has expanded morph sets for jessi, Aiko, steph petite (s3), and sixus1's HER at his site. is there anyone else i'm forgetting? this doesn't even touch on any of the "indy" humanoid characters out there. they don't necessarily meet you're versatility requirement, but if you've been away for a while, you might want to know about them. especially if you're thinking about specific characters, rather than everybody all the same figure. also, i'm not sure what kind of look you're most interested in, and they do have their own unique styles. studio maya's anime doll/maya doll: anime doll is here in the marketplace, maya doll is free on his site. zock3d's free figures (see http://poserclub.jp, and use a translator on the "join now" page) toshiyo's figures: see his store here, very cute doll style neftis's elle, elle2 head, neftoon pal and others (see http://polymage.com) the sixus1 project human figures and the zygote project human figures at the open3d project sixus1 her and him and others: at the sixus1 freebie site check out their forums for free add-ons, and their store for product add-ons. they're the ones who kinda started this whole give the figure away free, sell the add-ons trend. little dragon's furrette and furraldo: little dragon has made clothes, hair, morphs, plantigrade and digitigrade vesions of his anthropomorphic furry crew (here in freestuff) lady littlefox's anime/toon inspired koshini, ichiro, krystal and kiki (checkout runtimedna) dark whisper's sara: found free somewhere on the daz site. i'm not sure where anymore. she's got a toony look, and an interesting amount of freebie support (3d sara creations puts out a remarkable amount of content). kim goossen's g.i.r.l.: sold at daz alexander nesterenko's characters (most notably senya, he's an interesting male): sold at 3d commune note: he had some issues with alexa due to copyright infringements on the v3 character dacort's dina and natalia: sold at the afore-mentioned and awesome animotions (go to store, then shop by artist, then dacort). if you don't like dina's look, check out handspan studio's drucilla. dina bends rather well in comparison to most of the figures. if you're interested in monsters, see sixus1's products and sanctum art's products. i hope some of this will work as a reference for you.

Wolf359,

"Apollo MAX looks good with clothes on as a "normal guy" figure but is not suitable for Comicbook hero/warrior type males..."

I don't know if you've seen it, but Capsce made a great comic character for Apollo--Cole at Runtimedna.com. It was just released. :-)

Bobette Bryan

As P6 user you can get the P5 figures for free at ContentParadise.com

---

Ulli

"Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!"

*"I don't know if you've seen it, but Capsce made a great comic character for Apollo--Cole at Runtimedna.com. It was just released. :-)"* yeah ive seen it I have boris for M2 ,Capsces rocks!!! but unfortunately this cole character is a perfect illustration of what mean look at the complete lack of defined muscle groups even though he is bigger his limbs are not very defined just "puffed" up this shortcoming is inherent in the base mesh. making him not suitable for depictions of anatomically correct male humans or muscualr barbarian types that many of us render

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David can't use M2's maps. David is a unimesh figure. He can use M3's maps.

I love Capsces' morphs, too. I assume she's working on a set for V3. I also like Achilles' head sculpture kits (available for V3, M3, David, and SP).

IMO, no figure really does "ethnic" adequately. For example, most "Asian" morphs look more like David Carridine trying to pretend to be Chinese than actually Chinese. The ones that do look authentic don't mix with the other morphs very well (expression morphs, for example). This is why I plan to buy Miki and Koji from Content Paradise when they are avaiable, even though I'm not wild about James and Jessi. They re-did the expression morphs so they work with the Japanese faces, and that makes it worthwhile for me.

Wolf what IS your crusade against ApolloMax. You don't own the model! You've said it isn't FOR you. OKAY! ApolloMax has been out for 1.5 months. The figure is a base, a STARTING POINT. Get one of the great poser morph gods to do some bodybuilder morphs for ApolloMax and it won't be an issue. IF things are built into a mesh it can LIMIT the model, musles built into M2 made it hard to make M2 look like a normal guy, was one of the biggest comments when the M3 wish lists started. By having a smooth mesh with good bends as a starting point it's much easyer to "addon" later on. the over used excuse that ApolloMax is no good and bad for renders because he doesn't have specific morphs is just rediculious. go look at the galleries. Capeces did a morph pack in less than a month, Rawart 2 textures now, jepe did his hairy overlays. Maybe BECAUSE ApolloMax is flexible and easy to work with. 1 1/2 months. Anton isn't really into bodybuilding, he didn't put those specific morphs into ApolloMax. the morphs that ARE in ApolloMax are suitable for comicbooks, normal guys, and big thugs. The Mesh is flexible that if someone who is into body building did morphs it wouldn't be a issue, but that doesn't make the model BAD, just means it may not be for specific users that are seeking 1 specific thing. Wolf, everytime I see your digital clone picture made with M2 I think damn wha' with the broken ribs and the garish hands with stubby fingers. anatomically correct male human?! hahaha ApolloMax has a penis and an anus. Model doesn't have competition bodybuilder morphs, get someone to make some, the mesh can handle it.

"Wolf what IS your crusade against ApolloMax. You don't own the model! You've said it isn't FOR you. OKAY!" Why can people not freely express there concerns and objections against a figure. I totally agree with wolf359, while some of the features of AM may be great, he's just not a real looking figure. He's being sold as the ultimate poser figure, at least that's what we''re led to believe (you only have to look at the name for instance and the ads about him). Well he's not, anatomically he's completely incorrect. As far as I'm concerned he's just another figure hype, we've seen too many of those lately.

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Thanks cobaltdream!- I do have to point out the Glamorous Jessi is actually only $5, though, not $6! She will never be on sale though, you gotta spring for the whole half of a sawbuck! She isn't nearly as versatile as V3 though. RKane_1 - you might wantto look at this thread at Poserpros on figure bending, and what people thought of the various figures available.

Machinclaw ,people ask for opinions on poser males and I along with many others offer them you might want to consider avoiding such threads if they hurt your tender feelings so much. just a thought ;-) Oh and those "garish" hands are just one option I chose for my "stylized" character, you see, Like apollo ,the default hands on M2 are a somewhat "petite" and on the "broken ribs" please look up "serratus" or "serratis" in a medical dictionary or check those wonderful "muscle maps" being sold at DAZ Option are nice :-) Penis?? Hmm dont normally do full male nudes but i do own the famous "ULF" penis character add on and the" Lee moon penis" as well So im covered if the need ever "arises"(Pun intended..ouch!!) Anus???? I cannot imagine EVER needing one for my types of renders/animations ----------------------------------------------------------------- >>"musles built into M2 made it hard to make M2 look like a normal guy,"<< ----------------------------------------------------------------- Really??? the attached pic was dial turned in about six minutes think larry david the creator of "sienfeld" or "Mr burns" ,Homer simpsons Boss oh and please Clam yourself ;-) its only poser stuff ya know it been proven that stress is really bad for you ;-)

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Wolf your so funny.

just to add my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth... i think diversity, especially diversity in male characters is great. the more male characters, and the more high-quality ones, the better. in my personal opinion, apollo lacks definition in all aspects. and that's not only for the most muscle-bound character; it's for your average guy on the street whose ribs can be seen under his skin. in general, not just muscle-wise, though notably so, apollo lacks detail and definition. i don't have to spend $50 to $100 to see that find that out: the galleries and product previews have made that abundantly clear. they've also shown a very high-density mesh and incredible joints. he's a high-quality product, no doubt. and i'm sure tons of people will do interesting things with him. he's not to my taste, and he's not to wolf's taste. i don't see why wolf should be yelled at, while the several who have posted raving about apollo before buying him should be agreed with. to each his own and all that jazz. and on the comic book hero front... i guess it depends on the comic. i'm not a huge collector (i have about 11 long boxes), and of that much is indy flavored with vertigo, though i do have some standard dc and marvel. that said, i can't think of anybody but maybe kirby back in the day and some of the more stylized, smooth flat (cartoony) black and white comics that have characters as big as apollo standard with as little definition. it seems to me, since people like byrne, kubert and mcfarlane entered on the scene, the standard is more detail in the muscles and facial features, not less. they're (by far) not my favorites, but i recognize their popularity. i have a pretty wide variety of tastes- from 80s vampirella and texeira (whose guys often weren't very bulky) to 90s dave mckean and jon muth to fairly recent developments like courtney crumrin and strangehaven. i still can't think of any style that is as realistic and as low detail as apollo is. the closest i can imagine is john van fleet, and i'd still say that he depicts more and smaller irregularities in the face, hands, and body shape than apollo has. frankly, i see more inaccurate posing and anatomical errors in comics than i do lack of detail. though, i still say this is just my opinion. i think everyone is entitled to voice theirs, especially if i vehemently disagree with them (i thrive on diversity). which, in the case of poser products, isn't worth it.

I miss the days when community people supported one another instead of bashing people for sport. I know it was that way once. I really do rememeber. Or at least I think I do. :( I just don't understand what the point is or what is trying to be accomplished. I really just don't get it. You would think some would be happy that anyone bothered to do a male figure. Not as fun as trying to drown artists I guess.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

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You know Wolf, I know you have several Apollo remarks in several other posts. I wouldn't mind so much but you tote your M2 as an out of the box figure. Your characters are not the default M2. You use Boris, 3rd part add-ons, freebies, won't post your settings, and post postworked images(and no Cinema 4d doesn't blur just the armpits). Now if you want to think M2 is the best thing since slice bread, that is fine, but it would be nice if your were at least fair/honest before bashing Apollo. Now I have used M2 as long and as much as anyone. And the faces you depict are simply not in his provided range. Period. I have the default M2 and would love your morph settings to get your "realistic" results above without additional purchases. Unlike your character renders, Apollo comes with everything I depict in my renders and ad images without the need for additional purchases or postwork. And are rendered in Poser and not Cinema4. I know this is silly, thinking that you are even interested in being impartial. I personally do not think Marvel commic cutlines define "realistic", but I would never deem to impose that upon you. Apollo is advertised as the "optimal" poser figure because he bends better, is faster, has more diverse morphs, and is better UV mapped, and has more capabilities for character generation, than any other Poser realistic human figure currently available out of the box. He can be a child, ogre, toon, hulk, etc without the need for addtiional purchases or hybrid figure splicing/morph stacking from other figures. And even at $99.95 he is less expensive for the exact same content for any other similar quality figure being he comes with clothing. hair. beard, poses, hi-res maps, etc etc etc.(all on page) :)

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Regarding versatility out of the box, here are some pics of various random scaling and morphs. These were a bit rushed. But you get the idea. If there is another single figure(one) that does this out of the box without splicing/using add-ons, I would be interested in knowing. Cheers!

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I wanted to chime in on the versatility of Aiko and Hiro. Lots of possibilities with those two. My favorite male figure is David, favorite female is Stephanie Petite, but as mentioned, they don't have as much support as M3 and V3 (both of whom I use, but prefer to use other figures whenever possible). bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Gee, Anton, I'm suprized how low-poly Max is. While great for low-overhead, how do you keep from showing flat-spots on the outside of the bends?

I was careful with his joints and my polygon placement. More polygons in the wrong spots can often make figures bend worse and not better.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Anton Lovely work, sir. When it next goes on sale, I intend on buying the figure. I think that the low poly count is excellent and it seems to have accurate poly placement to emphasize the serratus area to me. I would love to see more examples of bends with him, more than what is supplied in the examples on Content Paradise but he seems like an exquisite figure, especially if what many experienced users glowingly say about it. Wolf: Please recognize the immense amount of work that went into Apollo. The figure itself seems to triumph where several others seems to fall slightloy short. The ADM dial ALONE increases the versatility of the figure quite a bit, not to mention I think many of the "problems" with the cut look on the figure could be handled with a clever bump map for things such as "cut" lines and vascularity. In the end, the supposed "lack" of lines is more realistic for those who seek a more versatile figure whose poly count has been kept lower because of it. For those seeking a very "cut" look, this can be done with a bump map, for EVERY OTHER figure with OVER 5% body fact (like 99% of the world's population of men) the figure is perfect. Moreover, if you are an artist that does postwork, the figure itself is a closer approximation (it seems) to the actual proportions and bending limitations of a normal human being. Muscle cut lines can be added in postwork. I want to state emphatically, I support postwork 100% for making the final product look better, its just impressive when none was done on a realistic piece of work. In short, Anton, superb work and I look forward to owning the figure. For now I may go with David and M2 for the amount of items available for them for poser work, but when I procure your figure, I look forward to adding to the content available for it. Thank you all.

Here are tow great links for pose pics. http://www.runtimedna.com/messages.ez?forum_id=47&Form.ShowMessage=142005 http://www.runtimedna.com/messages.ez?forum_id=47&Form.ShowMessage=143933

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Btw: Thank for your words. I appreciate it. :)

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

"I was careful with his joints and my polygon placement. More polygons in the wrong spots can often make figures bend worse and not better. Oh, so true. They can also make morphs much harder to work without wrinkles, Dina was a perfect example of too many polygons in afigure. However, if it would have been my mesh I'd have cut some more edges across the front of the knees, at least. ;-)

Yeah if it was your mesh you probably would.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Now girls, stop.... yer BOTH pretty. smile

lol I didn''t mean quite that way. I am agreeing with Jim. He is very into kneecaps and elbows. Jim why have you never modelled your own figure? God knows you have been around long enough. I think you would enjoy rigginf your own mesh. It give you so much more control.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I'm actually hoping that the trend for Poser figures is towards smart poly placement and not denser and denser meshes. Now that Poser has displacement (so does DAZ Studio) and higher quality smoothing, I don't need a pair of lips to have more polys than most game models. ;)

I've been thinking about it, on and off. The only part that really scares me on doing a figure are the teeth, and maybe the ears, to tell the truth. ;-) I aughta finish up my horse first, though. I don't think the DAZ horse was accepted as the best one possable, so there might be some room for improvement. "smart poly placement" intresting term! You can see Max is laid out pretty well, what you need is close polygon pitch in areas of large changes, or to define creases and hollows and such, not in the middle of fairly flat areas. Incidently, I picked the Hi-res version of Jessi whan I made Glamorous Jessi, but I did cut some new edges in places that I thought needed it, you can do that without screwing up the UV mapping. It looks like E-Frontier just ran somethink like Max's mesh-smooth (which double up the edges both ways) on the low res mesh to make it high res. That is sorta wastful, but otherwise I thought the mesh was pretty nice. I did have second thoughts about teh poly count though, which is why I include a version that uses the low-res head (and a neck adapted) in her package too. With the low-res head she is a little under V3's poly count, if I remember.

Actually a little over, now that I checked. V3 has 72,712 facets, GJ has 83, 572 GG has 111,785 GG = Glamorous Glennis, the all hi-res version. Stock P6 Jessi has 111,327, the difference is the cutting I did.

whoa, wait up. horse? you're working on a horse?! that's great! the daz horse is nice in several respects but lacking in several areas- mainly various joints. there are threads both here and in the daz forums that detail a lot of the problems in the neck and legs. interestingly, they're a lot of the same problems jessi has - tearing, ill-scaled fore limbs, etc. the knees and joints on it just don't have the right shape, either. i think you would do a great job on a horse. the main suggestion i have is to get some of the heads of the complaints about the daz horse in on testing. most of them seemed to own horses and have a lot experience with judging conformation. the biggest mistake daz made, in my opinion, was releasing promos saying it wasn't done and giving the impression they were open to input on development, and then ignoring almost all of the feedback. oh, and on the subject of post-work and displacement... again, my personal opinion, i'd rather spend a bit of time post-working joint problems (which are usually large scale) than painting a whole displacement map to create details or post working the numerous details necessary to give the kind of detail already built into many figures. the wiremesh of apollo and mike show my issue - i'd rather just have mike's knees than have to get references and post work in those details - on top of making custom morphs to get that shape (it's not just the "bumps" but how his knees are actually shaped and join with his legs). i can see apollo's versatility when it comes to scaling and posing - i think in those areas he's simply the next generation of poser figures, the future so to speak. i can even see the superior polygon placement in the regularity of apollo's mesh, and since i'm not a modeler, it's gotta be a huge difference. but for me, and the work i like to do, apollo doesn't fit. i personally don't see a need to spend a lot of money on yet another figure (even a male one) that i'd have to spend extra time and energy to get the sort of detail i want when i already own figures that have more of it out of the box. as i said before, i'm all for diversity and i'm very glad that he's not only been made but is popular. i looked through his gallery and forum and at products and promos before deciding not to get him. i'd advise anyone on the fence to do the same. a lot of people are making some great pictures with him. i just have the same complaints about each one, and i don't feel like trying to force a figure into my own mold when i just don't have to. in a sort of objective sense, i don't see him fitting for any existing comic book style (you can always make whatever style you want). since characters for superheroes and versatility in that area, and not debating apollo's strengths and weaknesses, was the topic, actually referencing marvel anatomy seems relevant. realism seems to be in the eye of the beholder. i don't think it's worth arguing over a figure's realism in any objective sense. for instance, everyone comments on jessi's face, when she's the first poser character that reminded me of anyone i'd ever seen without morphing. i think neftis' new head product has eyes a bit too close together- but i also know real people that look like that. it all depends on rkane's aims and wants. that's why i said he should look into the different types of versatility. there's wardrobe and hair, posing, muscularity, costume / catsuit (with really particular needs for comics versus the general use, which generally involves faking normal clothes), morph support, freebie support and product support, just to name a few. overall, i think there's more than one answer to his request, and trying to argue that there's only one seems a bit biased.

also, thinking about it, if i were starting from 0 (no m2, m3, david, hiro, good grief, why do i do this), i'd probably get apollo on the latest/most advanced basis. rkane, just out of curiousity, what you looking to do: make your own work, freebies or products? or something else entirely?

Attached Link: SEE MIKE RUN

and as i stated in the "sister" thread to this one, postworking in anatomy details is NOT an option for us poser animators We need the details tp be already present in the mesh for EVERY frame

My website

YouTube Channel

Jim, Yeah I hear yah. Hand and feet are usyally tough too. Perobably why so many people have ripped off Daz mesh in those areas on custom figures. Shame when people try to get away with something. Anywhoo, Cutlines on bends tend to cause pinwheeling.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

The horse sorta got overtaken by events, when I heard DAZ was doing one I stopped work. Here is a pic of it about as far as I got. It is in the middle, between the P4 horse and IV. ;-) I'm not a a horse person, so I did plan on asking a lot of advise on it. It was to be a hot-blooded horse, if you know what that means. I hadn't figured out how I was going to do the mane, but I'm not to crazy about the way DAZ did it, either, or the way the DAZ horse's neck bends.

And here is what the mesh looked like. I'd redo a lot of it if I started working on it again, though.

In response to your question about my aims, Cobalt. I woulod say first I want to play with renders. Do some illustrations, produce some freebies after experimenting with modelling and morphing and moving up to selling products. I have a labor of love that will need illustrations soon and it is definately a super-hero project like most geek fanboys. smile

oh, wow. i kind of know what a warm-blood is. but i can still see terrible errors in the mil horse, so there's a lot of room for improvement. and those are gorgeous looking joints. i'd love to see how they bend. it's interesting: next to the p4 horse, you're horse's head looks kind of stylized (it reminds me of the sculptures on the campus where i work). but the joints and body look better than i've ever seen. i mean, i know i'm no expert and i'm not looking at it side by side with the mil horse, but... i think he's beautiful and a serious improvement. i think that when it comes to grazing type animals (i'm sure there's an actual more coherent term for that), the legs are actually where most of the realism is needed. i mean, the stereotypical shot of a person is a portrait - so the face of a human figure is really important. but the stereotypical shot of a horse is a horse at gallop (thanks in part to muybridge) or rearing. when i was young and drew horses pretty constantly, one of the first things i learned to draw was a proper bent foreleg. that's why the mil horse's was so glaringly off to me. i won't even go into the obvious errors like the neck tearing.

rkane: cool! well, i hope all this conversation has given you a start into looking at your choices on figures. m3 has the weight of the market right now, but we'll see what happens. for females, v3 is the 800 lb gorrila, but there are several out there and more in the works. check out the animotions gallery, and you'll get a better idea of what people are doing. good luck with your project, it sounds fun.

no matter what figure you choose, i suggest getting wardrobe wizard. it's a product by philc and kamilche that converts clothes between figures. the link above lists which figures. it's not perfect, but the support is great and they keep improving and updating it (i think it's now at the 7th update). most people (i think, from reading posts) have had few problems converting to morphed characters (clothes for say m2 converted to a custom dialed boris). if you want to go between different figures (say m2 to apollo), you have to own both figures. you can see the examples of conversions in the forums here, at daz, and at runtime dna (i remember one at runtime that showed toshiyo's rosy cheek's lina and apollo in about the same clothes).

oh, and see this thread in the daz forums if you want to use the shapeshifter freebie available on that page. it transfers body shapes between figures with the same mesh (so the unimesh characters, v2 and the preteens and preschoolers, etc.).

oh, and don't forget to check out daz's freak. he really might fit into your project, and you can use the capsces' brom morphs on him to an extent (or so i've heard).

Message edited on: 08/05/2005 02:16

Thanks! I was aware that the head needed more work, of course. I was trying to get the legs in shape at this stage. Hot Blooded breeds are Arabian, Anglo-Arab, and Thoroughbred and maybe another that I can't remember right now (I still don't know where a lot of my reference material is from my big move of last weekend). I was either going to have morphs to cover all 3, or more likely have 3 CR2s, as they vary in size as well as shape. If the horse sold (I'm so mercenary!) I could later do a warm blooded set, then a cold blooded set, too- cover all the bases! Here is the rear view.

hot bloods: ah. that's about what i thought. and, sorry, i wasn't trying to say the head actually needed work - i rather like the aesthetic. i think it would sell. i don't have enough knowledge of sales to even guess at how well it would sell, but i think it would be a "must have," even more than the mill horse at the right price- not that i know what that price would be. damn, those legs are nice. again, i know i'm not even close to being an expert, but that was what i was expecting from a mill horse. would you ever consider approaching a lion or tiger? from the looks of it, you could make a good living just fullfilling the expectations of disappointed customers. hmmm. i think it would be especially popular if you paired with haigan or edw and packaged static and animated poses with it. i think a 3 or so breeds per set approach is probably good. i mean, if others want to expand on it, even better, but i think the daz animal meshes suffer a lot from trying to be too many different species and breeds. though some of the errors are basic to all of them (like the mill big cat's paws), a lot of problems stem from them trying to be all things to all people and therefore not truly being anything. and sorry, rkane, i know this is way off topic. not too many superheroes on horses. though i guess you could make a mechanized character for the horse and do apocalypse's horsemen ;D.