Last night I downloaded the latest version of Daz Studio from daz3d and tried it out.

I have found from my initial test that this product has hung P6 to dry hands down.

The problems I am continuing to experience in P6 is unheard of in Studio. Its unbeliveable...

I recommend if you have not got it to download it for free from Daz3d asap and check it out for yourself....

Problems in P6..... I don't encounter problems in P6 at all, but do encounter problems in D/S. Besides D/S lacks a number of P6 features I tend to use, so no D/S for me, I'm sticking to Poser. I'm so used to Poser after all of these years, that I find working with D/S akward and I'm really not in the mood to redo all of scenes in D/S that use the P5 or P6 people. I'm very content with P6, but it seems that it behaves very different on different computers, but so does D/S. Perhaps it's safe to say that a pc that runs P6 well, will not run D/S well and a pc that doesn't run P6 well, works fine with D/S?

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Aeikema I am a heavy user and used Poser from P3 to P6.

I have complained like many others both to Curiouslabs/E-Frontiers and placed forum message explaining the problems I have encounter in P6 which were not prevelant to a degree from the previous versions.

However, I appreiciate you have not had any problems with Poser and therfore you are inclined to change, everone I accepts uses Poser/Studio is tailored to their own need.

I also know from reading the forums both here and at Daz3d their have been issues with Studio, which are being resolved or have alreasy been resolved.

While experimenting with Studio I have managed to render a scene with more than 4 full textured figures with over 20 props including clothing (eg V3 and M3) and rendered them in Studio whereas in P6 this failed repeatedly.

I have also noticed that Studio tend to use P5 runtime as I have 2 runtimes one for P6 and the other for P5 which are identicle in every way.

I've only once had a problem in P6, and that was a fluke that I couldn't replicate (so it may have been something else in my system causing the problem). I'm sure that D|S will eventually be fantastic, and now it's good, but I miss the excellent material room available in P6. I'm glad to see people like and use D|S. Competition can't help but produce better quality products from both eFrontiers and DAZ. :-) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I am currently porting all my figures over to Maya. Once I forgot everything I once knew about animation software, it was easy to get my mind around it. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what you use - my work will still suck if I have no vision.

I want to use both. If I find time to install it, grgrgrgrgrgrgr ... :(

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

I'm sorry that, after spending money on P6, you're bound to use D/S... Luckily, P6 only gave to me "Out of Mem" errors sometimes, before SR1, and now it works flawlessly: it's a prog with SO MANY excellent characteristics it would be a shame for me if it would not work...

points of information please: does Daz studio have AO or IBL or any kind of Global Illumination? Can you play audio track or full quicktime movie in animation pallet and SEE the audio wave? ::::: Opera :::::

I should hope there are no problems after 3 years. Those plugins look like they are going to add up after awhile. People insist there will be no division in the community but I think this is remarkably shortsighted and narrow. Obviously, with Poser7, propack will be four versions old and I doubt much more Poser finctionality is going to be copied. So from here on out there are two paths of content, that which works in Poser(meaning Poser5,Poser6, and then Poser7) and old stuff or simplistic things that can import properly into Studio. Will be interesting to watch. Personally, I think any content person who agrees to the Eula is a fool, but that is just my opinion. Disclaimer: I post this here since we are in the Poser forum and this is a Poser6 related topic. :)

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

"Obviously, with Poser7, propack will be four versions old and I doubt much more Poser finctionality is going to be copied." FINALLY... someone who sees it like I do in that regard. I think many of the folks who will be drawn to D|S are those who are currently happy (or at least satisfied) with Poser 4 stuff. For those who got on board with ProPak, and more particularly with P5 and P6 functionality and features, I don't think D|S will steer us away easily. Especially with Poser 7 possibly already in the works.

---

Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

"does Daz studio have AO or IBL or any kind of Global Illumination? Can you play audio track or full quicktime movie in animation pallet and SEE the audio wave?" Of course not :-) and you have no cloth dynamics NO Dope sheet or spline graph editor for serious character or object animation NO Direct support from Mimic( A DAZ owned program) NO python support to run powerful crossplatform utilities like Wardobwizard,puppetmaster etc. they recently recanted their claims the their "Dform 'tool will import poser Magnets.. it does not. NO Viable export to any other program except bryce Via standard OBj files with referenced mtl file No internal shader system at all or any type of "effects" to speak of. However May i suggest that there is a segment of still render hobbyists and digital pro illustrators whos rendering needs dont require any of these features thats fine and im glad that DAZ has offered them a way to render DAZ/Poser content At little to no cost ;-) so its all a matter of ones perspective and needs Me?? I have Poserpro4,poser5 &poser6 installed on my MAC and from my perpective they are all just Charcater animation and previsualization tools for sending my figure/content over to Carrarpro for rendering where I have true HDRI and GI and direct support for posers cloth dynamics. there will be no major "division" per se in the "community" as far as content providers go can anyone really see "Stonemason" or "Uzilite" or "Sanctumart" switching over to creating D/S content EXCUSIVELY??? Not likely. ;-/ And YA I know its Free but Add HALF of those features I just mentioned as plugins etc and see how fast the price starts to approach what we pay for a full seat of poser these days. Glad to see there is something for everyone though :-)

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Well, I just tried P6 firefly for the first time on a closeup on M3's face with some shader nodes. I couldn't render with shadows on at all. (No, I don't have a fancy-smacy machine either.) I gave up on the render after an hour. Couldn't even make a tiny area scan. So I turned off displacement, and shadows, and I got a whopping 3 renders before crashing (the last one I couldn't save because I crashed). :(

render 1: 500x500 close up face, no clothes, no hair
render 2: 500x500 close up face, dynamic hair
render 3: 500x500 close up face, no clothes, no hair

Looks I'll be using PP, unless DS can render advanced features like displacement and materials without eating up system resouces.

sigh

bB

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 05:03

"there will be no major "division" per se in the "community"<<

Well maybe not today anyway. :) I see you added "major"/"per se". I remember "will be no". Funny how perceptions slides.
hehehe. I'm going to bookmark this for the "I told you so" down the road.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 05:03

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

"And YA I know its Free but Add HALF of those features I just mentioned as plugins etc and see how fast the price starts to approach what we pay for a full seat of poser these days. Glad to see there is something for everyone though :-)" I stated the same at the DAZ forums and they all started to laugh. Besides, I'm a frequent P5 & P6 content user (like Don, Judy James, Jessi & Kids). For me switching to D/S would mean a major re-investment into DAZ figures. I can live without the Poser male & female figures, since I've got M2/V2, but I don't have any DAZ kids. I've already calculated that me buying all that is needed to get useable kids in D/S, I'm going to spent more on D/S then I ever did on Poser. But I wouldn't want to exchange my Poser kids for DAZ kids any way, to me the DAZ kids look like Chucky & mates, and I'm not into horror scenes at all. So no option, unless DAZ creates some more real looking kids, the collection they now do have scares me. The other side of the free coin is often overlooked, besides all of the missing features, there will be lack of content. All needs to be compensated for and before you know, D/S has cost lot's more then Poser ever did.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I heard that Poser 4 was the better program out of all poser versions.. at least it is the easiest to learn from what I'm told. I don't know anything about daz studio. I have enough problems figuring out Poser 5, that I doubt I'll try it. From what I hear some files don't work in daz studio either.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Poser4 was perhaps the best/most stable version until Poser6. Now it is just outdated as is Propack. They are just too many versions old.

There are character rigging anolomies that have since been fixed as well in regards to the setup room. People forget about proPack in countinf Poser verions. Poser6> Poser5> ProPack> "Poser4". That is four versions ago.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 05:22

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

The one thing I like about D|S is that if it is sucessful, it should light a fire under eF to work on the features the community requests to stay competitve. Things like Multiple Undo (or even an Undo that always works would be nice!) I was going to dl D|S last week, but then I read something about the magnets being an add on, and just thought, "Oh great! Another not-so-free Daz freebie!" Who knows? Maybe when the product matures it will be worth it, but for right now, I would rather stick with the devil I know, P6.

Magnets.... You mean Poser magnets?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Anton, yes I was referring to the lack of poser-like magnets in D|S. That they are an add-on, which from this thread seems like that isn't even the case. shrug

"Funny how perceptions slides." The reason I beleive that is obvious This is not like 3D MAX vs Alias MAYA two arguably "comparable" programs If I may be frank about it, Poser6 is so far ahead of DAZ's cute little peice of freeware That there really is NO competion right now. Oh sure you will have newbies who Download the free V3 and D/S and think it "the greatest thing ever" due to lack of experience with anything else and of course you will have those few existing in a Myopic haze of DAZ fanboy evangelism undisturbed by reality countered by obsessed self proclaimed "enemies" of DAZ who ,for whatever personal reason, would like to See DAZ pushed into the Sea :-) but so What ?? we know such types already exist in this community and despite their best efforts they havent really divided the users now have they??? Sure there will be a "division" in this community when DAZ releases a MAJOR new female figure that CANNOT be used in poser at all and even then that will only open the door for some talented artist to finally create a viable alternative to the INJ/REM/CHAN/VIS/DELTA HORSE SH*T!!! with a commmon sense figure that does NOT require installing 796 support files a is needed right now to get a fully funtional "UNIMESS" female.

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Quote - Oh sure you will have newbies who Download the free V3 and D/S and think it "the greatest thing ever" due to lack of experience with anything else and of course you will have those few existing in a Myopic haze of DAZ fanboy evangelism undisturbed by reality countered by obsessed self proclaimed "enemies" of DAZ who ,for whatever personal reason, would like to See DAZ pushed into the Sea :-)

You're a writer, aren't you?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

The sad thing is that neither is a happy solution. Studio is mired in the past; but Poser 6 is too buggy, too slow, and too much of a resource hog. The field is divided because P6 has the best platform, but Daz has the best figures. The new P6 figures have some attractive functionality I'd like to work with, but they still aren't as good as Daz figures.

It is another tool.. it is not a replacement. It does do somethings better, but it is not perfect and neither is Poser. People talk about how it should be since they had three years, but then Poser really should be perfect. They have had a lot longer. I will continue to use both.. I do not have issues, history, or hang-ups that prevent me from seeing the usefulness of the program. I will recommend D|S to anyone interested in 3D Art of this nature. It is a great way to get your feet wet without having to jump in feet first! I wish D|S was available when I started into this realm. Would I have bought Poser... eventually, but I most likely would not have bought P5 when I did! (Loved that material room really had some issues with much of the rest!) I most likely will not buy P7, unless I get a really good deal, but that has nothing to do with the fact D|S is available. I supported CL/e-frontiers with the purchase of P6 and it works for me, but until they can improve the Startup Time and a few other issues of convienance, I will hold judgement on the next version and not be a guinea pig. Will I buy every Plug-in for D|S? No. I got the free ones and I might pick up one or two that appeal to me and will help me with my work flow, but I am not likely to buy it because it is released. I feel some of the proposed Plug-ins need to be in the base program at some point (and no Magnets and Power Pose are not two that I think need to be there!) I use D|S to test concepts and figure out layouts due to the speed of D|S, but in the end I do the image in Poser to take advantage of features which Poser contains. I would pay for a good convertor that would allow me to import D|S Scenes into Poser. I also use D|S if I am going to Bryce (and I would like to see some improvements there!) On the content issue... P5 had a great improvement in content, the additions to the Content of P6 were a disappointment. With that said, I rarely use P5 figures or P6 figures. I have yet to use Apollo in a final render of a project, though I hope to change that with the use of Wardrobe Wizard (and I hate everyone calling it WW, that is Dark Whispers Logo for Wacky World and should be respected by this community! Call Wardrobe Wizard, Wardrobe Wizard or the Wizard, not WW.) Lastly, for me to totally give up Poser, Particles and ShaderSpider would need to work in D|S!

ratscloset
aka John

Hey, lets switch. I give the guy my DS and he gives me P6... Fair isn't it ? grin Seriously, DS may be superior over plain P4. May be compared to ProPack (except Python scripting which is vital to Wardrobe Wizard users). But it won't win with P5 with its dynamic features, and certainly is far behind P6 with all that new lighting stuff.

---

Outdated gallery over at DeviantArt

Fics at FanFiction.net and Archive of Our Own (AO3)

I use dynamic cloth and dynamic hair far too often to consider switching to D|S at this point. But I assume dynamic hair and cloth plugins are coming.

I think Anton is right. In the short run, competition may be a good thing. In the end, though, there can be only one. I don't think there's enough customers to support two different programs. With Poser 7 and the next version of D|S, I predict there will be advanced rigging. Which won't be compatible with both D|S and Poser. People will have to choose, or be mired in the P4 past.

randym77 said - "I think Anton is right. In the short run, competition may be a good thing. In the end, though, there can be only one. I don't think there's enough customers to support two different programs."

I don't agree. I don't think DAZ would have wasted a lot of time, money and effort creating DAZ Studio if they didn't think there was a market big enough. After all, they only have to look at the sales figures of their products to determine how many people are "within" that potential market.

Cheers

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 08:03

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

I believe the original reason for DS was because of the P5 EULA. But it makes sense for a content maker to offer a free program for people to use their stuff in. There are actually a growing number of newbies who are starting out in DS. They are still learning and they aren't going to miss the fancy stuff in P6 because they aren't ready for it yet, they to need to get a grip on the basics first.

Meanwhile, eF is going where CF never went/failed to go, - releasing new original characters.

So the 2 big camps are crossing into each other's territory, I figure this is a good thing, because it opens up the possiblities.

As a long time Poser user, I may not switch to DS because that would be yet another program to have to learn, and who has time for that? Can DS open pz3s? Does DS to do something P4, PP, P6 can't? I dunno, but if I were a content maker, I would make my product work on P4, PP, P5, P6, and DS.

bB

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 08:21

Imo DAZ is just trying to create a base in which they will not depend on others and are stuck to demand of others. They want to give orders and not take orders anymore. They don't want to depend on Poser, but be in the position to tell the creators of Poser what they want and not the other way around. Until now DAZ had to stick to Poser format, I'm pretty sure they want it the other way around, have Poser stick to their format. In the end it's all about the money and who's boss. That's what D/S is about, the money and to become the boss in the poser world. It's not only the development of D/S, but other apps like Bryce that give me this impression. It's all about independancy and I don't blame them! If it's a good development or not, we will see in the future. Of course a lot of it depends on merchants too. I'm pretty sure we will see some D/S only pilot projects in the near future. If D/S can have a good user base and the users are willing to invest into D/S only content then there may be a whole new development. As for a division in the community, wake up it's there already. We already have P6 only stuff, there is already free D/S only content, so division has started already and I'm sure we will see more of it.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Funny how it seems the needs are a bit reversed.

Poser has the tools for the content creators but lacks some finer elegance the "render only" users want

Studio has all the ease of a push pin, but lacks any ability to generate content.

To me Cheers makes a point.

"I don't think DAZ would have wasted a lot of time, money and effort creating DAZ Studio if they didn't think there was a market big enough."

Does it really make sense that Daz would spend three years and fully ignore two new versions of Poser if there WEREN'T planning on it being an eventual replacement.

The whole point, as we all remember, was to NOT have to rely on Poser. :) Peole forget that.

Yes not it is a fine freebie, but come'on. You really think this is just about a fun new toy that probably cost a mil or two and three years of full time resources.

hehe. People are naive. "It's all about the content Baby!" The base is free and cost is to be recovered through plugins.

10 Plugins later you still don't think it will be an alternative.

Hey look at it this way: when you have a Rendo Poser mod at Daz saying how much better she like DS over aweful Poser, that is a sign of division.

Just take the time to really think about it.

Everyone knows I am not a fan of copying. My opinion Studio is a tacky "poser lite". They are famous for their free LE versions afterall. Give away the base and rack it in on the add-ons. We all know how this works. :)

Considering how old the content is that STudio was originally wriiten to support is, it is tacky tacky tacky. No different than copying Vicki. I don't care what anyone says. Tacky tacky tacky. But all they do is copy anyway so it makes sense.

I think Studio is a fine app. I just think it would be more glorious if it were a matter of fair cometetion, not trying to create a glossy/streamlined "immitation of Poser". Think of someone making a copy of Vicki that uses all her clothes. They would say : "We can't allow it because it prevents the user from requiring the original figure. Well excuse me but where is the difference? Load the content, familiar features, supported files formates. But guess what. You don't need Poser. hmmmmm. lol Of course they are saying it isn't a replacement. Otherwise what would that make them?

PS: Does the STudio shipped content import in Poser4 and ProPack?? After all it isn't a repalcement right?

Forgive any typos.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 08:33

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 08:42

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Just one more important thing which is; I think DAZ have the upper hand over e-frontier about knowing what the potential market is. Take me for example...I originally got P4 as a free promotion with Cinema4DXL many years back, installed it, entered the S/N but never bothered to registrate the product with CL, but DAZ are fully aware of the sales they have had from me to expand my Poser content. I wonder how many other users there are like me? How many people have purchased Poser, but not yet registrated with CL/e-frontier. Maybe it's different now, with P5 or P6...I wouldn't know, I haven't purchased them. How can e-frontier make the most use of the potential market when they don't even know the full extent of it ;) Cheers

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Quote:- "Personally, I think any content person who agrees to the Eula is a fool, but that is just my opinion."

Anton could you amplify this please.

grins at Phil
PHil you know how this goes. I start having an opinion and then Dan comes in and has his mod lock the post. hehehe

Let's just say articles 10,14, and 15 of the EULA are unacceptable. They could be seen as unconditional and non-specific. Article 15 could be seen as an indefinate and all-encompassing NDA and could be seen as Non-compete.

Regardless of what the intentions are, I believe the wording to be something to have a lawyer look at if you operate a Poser Business.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 09:11

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Which EULA, eF or DAZ?

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Here Phil. It is easier if I show you. To each his own but my experience has been very very negative with them and these types of things.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

We should all throw these into our products. hehehe

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I remember when poser started out with stick figures, and look where it is now. We are in version 1 of studio. I think it's great that we have choices, and that folks who really can't afford poser and daz models have a chance to jump in and play with the rest of us. Whether you get the plug-ins or not, I think it's a great program. I understand that some folks have had a hard time with Daz, some have had a hard time with other stores, it's a fact of life that not everyone agrees. Everyone can read the EULA, and at least it's there in print and out in the open, makes a choice available. I don't think there will be a big division, at least not yet. I think as studio grows there will be more plugins that are comparable to poser, and if you want to use them great, if not you don't have to buy them. All in all, we will tend to use what works best with what we do. I intend to check out studio fully, but I also have pro pack, poser 5 and poser 6 installed. Don't know if I'll buy poser 7, I think they need to work on 6 and rebuild 7 from the start. Just my humble opinion, Marque

"Does it really make sense that Daz would spend three years and fully ignore two new versions of Poser if there WEREN'T planning on it being an eventual replacement."<<<< So Daz intends Studio to be a replacement for poser? Pardon me, but why should poser users fear such plans?? "10 plugins later "or not it wont stop anyone,EF or third party, from developing new poser content. (shader spider, real skin shader, wardrobe wizard, puppet master, Mikki Apollo maximus ,project human etc.) what vital Poser technology does DAZ truly own and can take away from us?? Vicky's JPs?...... Pffffttt!! that INJECT/REM/CHAN/VIS/DELTA BULLSH*T requiring the presence of nearly 800 support files per unimess clone??....please ;-/ Not seeing the ominous, evil conspiracy here consider looking outside the jaded world of poser for a moment There was Deep paint 3D first then MAXON created Bodypaint 3D with the rather obvious goal of going after Deep paint 's market Now luxology's incredible MODO 201 is looking to replace Maxons Bodypaint in many artist toolset. life in the big city :-) as far as DAZ's EULA is concerned I imagine mature adult,s with wise legal council, will decide for themselves if its terms are acceptable the same way they do when they agree to the terms of a mortgage contract etc. and if it is as Draconian and restrictive as some are apparently alleging then that will be a problem for DAZ not poser USERS.

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I think DAZ|Studio pulls the plug on Poser Artist. It's got comparable functionality (excluding magnets) and a better renderer, and it's perfect for newcomers who want to try their hand at 3D rendering. To be competitive with Poser 5, D|S would need: - magnets and wave deformers; - procedural materials; - dynamic cloth; - dynamic hair; - figure creation tools comparable with the Setup room; - Python support; - Animation; - and probably more. I think the cost of the plugins that provide this functionality - when they are developed, if ever - will be a lot more than the current P5 list price. And I'm not even talking about the advanced lighting options in P6 (mostly IBL and AO). ProPack is another matter. While it beats D|S in the creation department (setup room, scripts), D|S has the superior renderer. So it all depends on what the user wants. An easy to use posing/rendering tool? D|S. Animation, scripting? ProPack. Animation, scripting, and more advanced features? P5 or P6. I think it's strange that D|S does not support scripting out of the box. I ALWAYS write my apps to be scriptable, just by separating functionality from user interface and exposing the functionality through an object oriented API. A fairly common development style, and recommmended best practice by a lot of programming authorities (it's one of the few issues Sun and MS agree about...) I fervently hope eF will rewrite Poser from the ground up for version 7, and make everything scriptable. Oh, and while they're at it, I hope they will release 64bit versions too for both Windows and Mac. And Linux too, please!

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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"competition may be a good thing. In the end, though, there can be only one."<<<< UHhhhh....Why??? MAYA,Lightwave 3D,3D MAX Cinema4D.Side effects Houdini,Softimage XSI all Co-exist wings3D ,Silo,Hexagon all Co-exist Motionbuilder, project Messiah, endorphin all Co-exist Vue Bryce.Carrara pro all Co-exist please explain why only one "poseresque" posing/rendering program can exist.

My website

YouTube Channel

re: Post #34 by Anton ....... (very nicely presented Anton)

---

Hmmm ... That is kind of scary and ...

It would appear that the EULA was written by lawyers for lawyers, no?

That's just MVHO ............. I could be wrong. (<--- legal disclaimer) ... ;=]

cheers, (anyway)
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

wolf359 said, "Now luxology's incredible MODO 201 is looking to replace Maxons Bodypaint in many artist toolset." I don't think it will do that...not yet anyway. Saying that though Modo has replaced my modelling toolset (having used C4DXL for a number of years) and the 3D Painting is a biiiiiiig bonus. wolf359 also said,"Pardon me, but why should poser users fear such plans?? "10 plugins later "or not" I think you are missing the point, my friend. People will use the software that suits their production workflow the best. Who knows what will happen in the future. What would happen if DAZ included soft body dynamics, particles, muscle group animation, mental ray renderer, advanced node shading, import and export from/to many 3D applications, 3d painting, micro or sub-polygonal dissplacement, fur etc, etc...ok, this may or may not happen, but if 3 years down the line you have the same toolset in Poser as now, you won't fear Studio...you'll be chomping at the bit to try it. I never thought that I would ever change from C4D modelling...but here I am working with one of the best modellers of it's type in the industry (the afore-mentioned Modo) Cheers

 

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--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Oh, and can I just say thank you to everybody for this thread...it hasn't sunk down into a flame war, but a very interesting and intelligently written conversation. As a prize I all give you all a "give yourself a good pat on the back" ;) Keep it up and don't let me eat my own words :) Cheers

 

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Is EULA a character from gone with the wind? ;) All the fancy plugins for daz studio will not be free, so even getting it to the same state as propack will cost you.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 10:57

"What would happen if DAZ included soft body dynamics, particles, muscle group animation, mental ray renderer, advanced node shading, import and export from/to many 3D applications, 3d painting, micro or sub-polygonal dissplacement, fur etc, etc...ok, this may or may not happen, but if 3 years down the line you have the same toolset in Poser as now, you won't fear Studio...you'll be chomping at the bit to try it."<<< ALL of these feature are available in MAYA complete today to any poser user wanting to move up to them and PAY the $$$price$$$$$$$ Again Why should poser USERS be concerned/worried that such features may someday exist in DAZ studio?? >>'I never thought that I would ever change from C4D modelling...but here I am working with one of the best modellers of it's type in the industry (the afore-mentioned Modo)"<< YES i just jumped to Carrara Pro4 from C4D because it supports direct import of PZ3's and has HDRI/GI in the base package .

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"What would happen if DAZ included soft body dynamics, particles, muscle group animation, mental ray renderer, advanced node shading, import and export from/to many 3D applications, 3d painting, micro or sub-polygonal dissplacement, fur etc, etc..." Add all this, and I'll switch from Poser to D|S in a HEARTBEAT, and wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. LOL. ;-P

---

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It's about the green, mula, benjamins, bottom line. Plugins sold means money. Content sold means money. Software sold means money. A long time ago in a far off time, this was all about art, inovation, and creativity. DazStudio vs Poser? It will become that. The one to "win" will be the program that comes closest to having a "Make Art Button" and simplifys things down so advanced features are toy like in their implemetation. It's all rather sickening to be apart of, read, and watch. Remember the past. Remember a company called Metacreations. The past can repeat itself. Hallowed are the Oreye.

"ALL of these feature are available in MAYA complete today" Just for the record, they're all also available in 3dsmax v7 and up too, which is a couple thousand $$$ cheaper than the Maya Unlimited package which, I believe, is the one you meant to specify, since I don't think Complete carries some of those features. ;-)

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Until DAZ Studio has animation tools I'll stick with Poser. Whats it been now? Like in version 4 Daz started working on the "Poser Replacement" and now we are in in version 6 with 7 coming down the pike. Still haven't been able to get Studio out of beta. And this is where you want to put your eggs?

For the record, D|S is out of beta. Well, at least no one can say DAZ hurried through the beta stage - 2 years!

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After the recent, and untimely, death of my USB drive (and all my Poser files) I downloaded and installed D/S 1.0 and reinstalled a bunch of Poser goodies. I have to say that I personally am impressed. It hasn't crashed or locked up my computer once, it renders in incredibly short periods of time when compared to P5, and yes, I know there is stuff it won't do, but that's ok...I'm having a good time anyway. Will it replace Poser for me? No. Will it give me another tool in my toolbox? Definately.

Attached Link: Lightwave version of a Poser figure

What I'd like to see is for D/S Studio to become fully integrated with Bryce, so you just open up Bryce, select a figure and start posing. And for Poser to become fully integrated with Shade, so that you could do the same. I also wonder why someone doesn't come up with some affordable figures that can be used in other software packages directly, posing and all. I mean, you have stuff like this: http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/249164 --but that's hardly a solution for somebody who wants to populate their pictures and animations with varied realistic characters. Daz3D and Anton would have entire new markets for their products if they could make Lightwave versions of them. I assume there's some technical or legal problem, but what is it?

please explain why only one "poseresque" posing/rendering program can exist.

Size of the market. We're an odd group. What would be called "prosumers" in the electronics business. Not quite consumers, not quite professionals. It's always a small group, made up of very hardcore hobbyists and wannabe pros.

DAZ's plan is to grow the market, but I think it's a risky move. D|S may be easy, but I suspect the consumer end of the market will be won by gaming companies. The Sims, the Movies, Second Life, that sort of thing.

My main fear is that DAZ is trying to grow too fast. It's the companies that are expanding that at most danger of failing. And we may be heading into a very difficult economic period, due to record energy prices.

Basically, it's the same thing we saw during the dot-com boom. Plenty of room for everyone when times are good, but when times are bad, "consolidation" occurs.

I've never understood how someone can come into a poser forum and complain about the program having a make art button. Do you use it? If so you are in the same catagory as the rest of us who use poser to "make art". And if you don't use it, what are you doing here? Who cares who does what with what program as long as you are happy with the end result? I'm sick to death of all these threads slamming one product or another, just use the product you like and don't worry about the ones you don't, they will take care of themselves. Can't understand why it makes a difference to anyone except the folks selling the products and the folks using them. No matter what anyone says here in this forum, life will go on and folks will use what they want..you will not sway anyone with your views if they have made up their minds that they are going to be loyal to one product or another, so why waste time? Marque

I want to put my eggs into products that help me get the job done quickly, easily and as cheaply as possible. Sometimes cheaply and quickly don't go together. If a product has the tools I want, then I would be a fool to pay extra for a product just because it's well established. Infact many programs within 3D now find being established a rod for their own backs, because it becomes impossible to delete old redundant code (sometimes 7yrs+ old in some apps) without breaking the entire program. I know of a couple of applications that are becoming more and more bloated (effecting affective workflow in the process) because code can not be changed. Cheers

 

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"Lightwave version of a Poser figure" joezabel, that model is not originally a Lightwave model. It's been converted to Lightwave format recently, but it's originally modelled and rigged in 3dsmax. If you purchase the LWO version, you'd have to do the rigging and facial morphing yourself, although the skeleton is provided. "Included formats: OBJ,3DS,FBX,MB,DXF, LWO(!new!) model has a skeleton; rigging and facial animation are not provided in the exported versions. UVW coords are exported well. all shown garments and hi-res textures are included. For more details see description to MAX version of this model."

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I own Poser 6 and have used D|S and IMHO I think both apps. are too complicated. My time is valuable to me. If I spent hours trying to create clothing, figures etc. in Poser or D|S this is time I have taken from something else. The time it takes to build, bone, create clothing, pose and export a figure is ridiculous! IMO, In the future you'll be able to adjust the shape/size etc. of any base figure on the fly and then create, select or modify a piece of clothing and press a button and it will conform to the figure. Another button will allow you to make the clothing Dynamic or Conforming. Right now I have to jump through hoops just to pose, clothe and use a Poser model in my 3D application. It shouldn't have to be this hard. In a few years the way we work in Poser and Daz will look archaic.

D|S cannot be a tool in my tool box until it allows me to take my project back to Poser for the tools I use there. My only "fear" in the split of the market is the loss of content creators to D|S only products.

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Randym77 says:

We're an odd group. What would be called "prosumers" in the electronics business. Not quite consumers, not quite professionals. It's always a small group...

I think your example here runs pretty much counter to your argument. Back when I bought "Prosumer" video gear in the early 90's, it was a small market. Now, it is a HUGE market! Video cameras used to be consumer (<$1000) or professional (>$10,000) and only a couple of models in between - now look at the choices all along the price range between those two points.

And you know what? It took years for "prosumers" to get the same tools professionals had in the world of standard video. Not so in the new world of HD video. The Prosumer models come out with feature sets comparable to the pro rigs within the same time frame. Some companies are even INNOVATING in the prosumer space now, and only later adding features into the professional space. In some ways, prosumer has swallowed professional.

Which makes sense. Only so many people can work full time in such a small industry. The potential number of serious hobbyists or semi-professionals is far greater.

As for the price of D|S and assorted plugins matching that of Poser, lets see a show of hands: How many people who bought Poser went out on the same day and bought all the content and extra utilities they thought they'd need to use with it? Anyone?

Now raise your hand if you frequently check your bank account to see when you're going to be able to afford the next Poser goodie you've had your eye on? I know mine's in the air.

I think what D|S represents is pretty much a new type of financing for consumer-level 3-D apps - and the first "payment" is free. Instead of having to drop a sum of money all at once to get in the game, you can work your way in slowly. You might buy the magnet plug-in this paycheck, and the more expensive cloth room plug-in (let's say) two paychecks from now, but you WILL be spending the money. Eventually, you may spend MORE than you did on Poser, but in smaller, more palatable chunks.

What's more, DAZ gets to develop the app a little at a time, instead of having to make this huge investment in programming all at once to try and match Poser's feature set.

And of course, having the tool is going to fuel your appetite for content and the revenue it represents, as has already been mentioned.

• Jimdoria  ~@>@

Something that seems to be overlooked with D|S, which dissipated my enthusiasm for the product early on. It's a closed system.

IMHO the real success in Poser wasn't anything to do with the app per se, but that it used OBJ format and rational (well mostly rational ;-) extensions. I.e. all in TEXT format.

Poser is what it is today because of USERS, users who dug into, understood and EXTENDED Poser to way more than MetaCreations ever anticipated. With the sad recent "We don't support MAT files (even though we ship them in P6)" exception, these new tricks have been adopted or tolerated by the creators of Poser (but maybe that's just a side-effect of Curious Labs aversion to fixing prior-release bugs? ;-)

NONE OF THIS WILL HAPPEN WITH D|S. The formats are binary, proprietary and encrypted. I raised this in early beta in D|S forum, and to RobW, all said not a problem, will be workarounds, people will figure it out, etc., etc. BS! Does anyone really believe that the encoding process is there for any reason but data protection? (Officially it's for speed of loading! - On what, a 486?) Does anyone really believe DAZ wouldn't seek protection under the DMCA? Truly ironic when you consider that the single largest beneficiary of the current open Poser formats, extending them and building products based on that EULA-forbidden reverse engineering, is ... you guessed it, DAZ!!!

BTW EULA text highlighted byAnton is fairly common language for Software Applications, but I've not seen it used on a free app, nor have I seen it used to cover content. But there is one BIG difference here, it's usually written to be the other way around!!! I guess DAZ doesn't want eFrontier to do to them what they did to Curious Labs???

D|S will be a professional app, an adjunct to expensive apps like Lightwave, no doubt. But it'll never be a Poser replacement as we currently know and understand Poser.

Personally, I have never approved of Daz's use of such a clause, which I interpret to mean that they believe they aren't responsible for infringements. However, I would just like to repeat what I've said many times, that it's a bad idea to discuss a competitor's business practices here.

don't worry MorriganShadow will lock the thread right after DanFarr's rebuttal.

"Does DS to do something P4, PP, P6 can't" While DS doesnt compare with P6 yet. Yes, it does a LOT that P4 can't. Displacement mapping being one. Better rendering engine being another.Better user interface for sure. "I just think it would be more glorious if it were a matter of fair cometetion, not trying to create a glossy/streamlined "immitation of Poser"." DS is hardly an imitation of Poser. It already smokes P4 in many ways. Lets look at it this way. Poser is on version 6, DS is only on version 1 and already smokes the 4th version of Poser. Will DS replace Poser? I seriously doubt it. Anymore than I think MAX would replace Maya. They are tools to do a job. Period. Personally, I really like DS. I never upgraded Poser from P4. P5 was a cluster fuck of epic proportions and while waiting on p6 to come out I started to really enjoy DS. I like the interface,the render engine etc. I may or may not upgrade to P6 in the future, but for a hobbyist like me, DS does just fine. I never use P4 anymore. Yeah, DS doesn't compare to the latest version of Poser, nor should anyone expect it to. Lets wait a couple years and a few versions of DS to see whats what. Lets see if the anticipated p7 everyone is talking about is a TOTAL rebuild. Or just slapping more features on to the old tired P3 code as usual. Thats something you don't seem to see Anton. While DS is behind in the total features dept. They do have NEW up to date code to work with. Poser wants to win in the long run, they will have to re-write from the ground up. Ill believe that when I see it :)As for the plugin debate. THe nice thing about that is I won't have to buy all the plugins, just the ones I wish to use. Yeah, the plugins might be expensive, but you can pick and choose those that you wish to buy.

"don't worry MorriganShadow will lock the thread right after DanFarr's rebuttal."<< What ,in this thread, should Dann Farr need to rebut??? the various claims that he intends to make money from his companies posing/rendering application.??? no shocking revelation there :-)

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"Yes, it does a LOT that P4 can't." And P4 does a lot that D|S can't() - so...different needs, different programs. As simple as that. () Sketch rendering, obj morph import, walk designer, much more animation tools, joint editor, etc

And 30 posts later you'll have arrived at the same place you all are right now, which is nowhere.

Everyone's time is probably better spent using one of the programs that's being argued about endlessly here. ;)

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 14:43

"I think you are missing the point, my friend. People will use the software that suits their production workflow the best. Who knows what will happen in the future. What would happen if DAZ included soft body dynamics, particles, muscle group animation, mental ray renderer, advanced node shading, import and export from/to many 3D applications, 3d painting, micro or sub-polygonal dissplacement, fur etc, etc...ok, this may or may not happen, but if 3 years down the line you have the same toolset in Poser as now, you won't fear Studio...you'll be chomping at the bit to try it. I never thought that I would ever change from C4D modelling...but here I am working with one of the best modellers of it's type in the industry (the afore-mentioned Modo) Cheers" What would happen? Poser would win the battle since no one can afford D/S anymore. Of course DAZ can put it in D/S for free too, but then they would go bankrupt, too much investment needed for all of this. In other words, it will never happen, most likely.

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Some "business" things to think about (and these are just my opinions): when DAZ releases a MAJOR new female figure that CANNOT be used in poser at all Um, could this be Vicky 4? Once Studio is up and running (and offered for free), why should DAZ support Poser any more? Personally, I think this is a very real possibility and I would also be willing to place bets that DAZ takes this approach with either V4 or Mike 4. The base Studio program may be free, what about costs of "plug-ins"? Do we have a price sheet for them yet? Now, I'm certainly not saying that every single thing in Studio should be free, but if I have to purchase a "render" module for $100 to render the scene, then Studio is now more expensive than the full version of Poser 6. (P6 is currently $99.) And what else could Studio be missing? Would I also have to purchase a $100 animation module or a $50 "hair room" module? Now, again, DAZ is a company and they have every right to make money. But, at what point does the "free" Studio become more expensive than the full version of Poser? And will we be forced to use this "free" software (and purchase $250 in plug-ins) if we want to use Vicky 4 and Mike 4? As for the EULA in Studio- people will debate it and the DAZ staff may pop in and offer their opinions, but the real test will be what happens when DAZ tries to enforce it. Will the content maker give into DAZ, set a precedent of people giving into DAZ, and "allow" DAZ to enforce the EULA on other people? Or will the content maker fight the "unfairness" and completely break down our idea of "open source" files and how EULA's can be written and enforced? --John

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I thought Daz Studio was a response to Poser not working well. Why should Daz wait for Poser to work out the bugs so we can have more than four characters in a scene and render quickly. Poser failed Daz so DS was made. DS was also made for the other reason already stated in this post.

If poser did its job well DS might not have been made. There has been a lot of complaints about poser so it made the mutiny that much more possible. Good for Daz. If curiouslabs won't listen to its customers maybe it will listen to the avalanche about to crush them called DS. Go DAZ!

*I think DAZ|Studio pulls the plug on Poser Artist. It's got comparable functionality (excluding magnets) and a better renderer, and it's perfect for newcomers who want to try their hand at 3D rendering.*To be competitive with Poser 5, D|S would need: - magnets and wave deformers; - procedural materials; - dynamic cloth; - dynamic hair; - figure creation tools comparable with the Setup room; - Python support; - Animation; - and probably more I'm sorry but D/S does NOT pull the plug on Poser 4 or Poser Artist in this animator's book! Not until it can animate straight out of the perverbial box like Poser 4 still can. Just looking at the list of things you have as P5 & above only I see 3 things that can be done in Poser 4 and can't be done in D/S. While Poser 4 doesn't have the Setup room in it, figures can still be created with the joint editor with a bit of work and elbow grease. Magnet's and Animation have been part of Poser since at LEAST version 4. And I recall a few people who created figures in version 4 with just the joint editor and the grouping tools. I can't speak for Poser version 3 or older as I joined the bandwagon with version 4.

DS won't replace Poser, not for awhile anyways. It's not hard to create an app that matches/comes close to P4. P4 is there already to copy and all you need to do is improve the code. P6 had to start from P1. DS from P4. I have DS and the 2 free plugs, extra tools that may help in what I do. But it can't and won't replace my P6 for a very long time. It never hurts to have all the tools you can get your hands on. If Daz makes V4, DS only, that would be a very big revenue loss, I can't see enough DS users making up the difference.

*when DAZ releases a MAJOR new female figure
that CANNOT be used in poser at all

Um, could this be Vicky 4? Once Studio is up and running (and offered for free), why should DAZ support Poser any more?
Personally, I think this is a very real possibility and I would also be willing to place bets that DAZ takes this approach with either V4 or Mike 4.*

I don't think they'll do that. I suspect they will make two versions, one rigged like V3 for Poser users, one with D|S-compatible advanced rigging for D|S users.

Meanwhile, Poser 7 will have its own advanced rigging system. It will be backward compatible, so you can use the old figures, but all the cool stuff will work only with their own figures (Fei-Fei, anyone?).

People will be forced to choose, or be locked into the 1990's technology of Poser 4.

MallenLane wrote: "And 30 posts later you'll have arrived at the same place you all are right now, which is nowhere." DAZ employees should realize that The Community is going to hash things out on this subject for a long time, and that they need to let that happen, no matter how frustrating it may be to them as the owners and developers of their baby when opinions are expressed, even overstated or overheated opinions. I see absolutely nothing wrong with correcting false assertions however. In fact, I think it's a good idea, but that's not what the statement quoted above does. Unfortunately, it's a condescending remark directed at "you all" from someone with a vested interest in DAZ's success. As much as I'm a great appreciator of the writer and his company, it's impossible to appreciate being condescended to when a genearally reasonable discussion about the future of our craft's applications is taking place. Surely DAZ saw this coming? I disagree that this discussion has gone "nowhere." For example Spiritbro77 indicated D|S advantages over P4; that's substantial, not just opinion, not inflammatory argument. byAnton expressed his discomfort with the D|S EULA. While I won't let those clauses bother me as a D|S user, I can see why someone else might find them to be of concern. For my own part I dislike the "versus" component of these discussions. Many of us are already using D|S and Poser side-by-side for their respective advantages. My own moderate perspective aside, these "arguments" are just a normal and perhaps necessary part of current developments. Please, we don't really need those with vested intersts telling us that we're going nowhere for discussing these topics. Per usual, we argue because we care. :-)

Can you please tell us more about advanced rigging in D|S. I think all rig system are garbage.

Since starting this thread their have been alot of views being made here. Some contraversial!

I have been looking at forum threads at Daz3d and their seems to be alot planned for DS which will rival P6 and its predecessors.

I will continue to use P6 and P5 as well as use DS until I see what developments they have planned for DS.

I have also tried doing animation is DS and its very simple and its great. Daz have indicated they will be releasing a plugin or update for DS soon that will be as good as P6.

DS seems to be more stable than P6 when rendering large scenes of more than 5 human figures and over 20 props including hair and clothing.

Their will be a variety of plugins currently planned some available for free and some for a reasonable cost. We will have to wait and see...

With regard to P7,Curiouslab/E-frontiers have always been upgrading the old P4 engine and always promising to rebuild the Poser from start. They never did! I will only belive it when I see it!

Third times a charm :) I do think the denigration of two programs in contrast, is pointless.. that may be biased I guess. Poser's good. D|S is good.

Personal attacks need to stop and not happen again. Have the discussion. Don't bring names from outside the thread into it. I wandered in here because I'm a Poser Forum Mod, not because anyone anywhere told me to, but once legal mudslinging starts, this thread will end and go to the post graveyard, and I'd rather you guys be able to actually discuss something without having me or one of the other staff members breathing down your necks. Just...use your judgement. Both programs have a place, maybe not a place on everyone's computer, but they do have a place in this big huge world of ours. Let's not turn this into a "Mine is bigger" contest. MorriganShadow Poser Moderator

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DS seems to be more stable than P6 when rendering large scenes of more than 5 human figures and over 20 props including hair and clothing.

If this were to prove to be true, then it would be a strong selling point for me.

But I'd need some serious convincing before I'd switch over to D|S as my main app over Poser. I'm simply too heavily invested in Poser to consider another program......unless if that program can demonstrate some serious advantages over the competition. Not just a few tricks that it does better.

As some others have stated, I'd be happy to use BOTH apps. Why not - other than personal prejudice?

If only Poser and D|S could be designed so as to work well together.

Ah, well. We can dream.

I'll be first on the bandwagon to buy P7 whenever it comes out. As for D|S, IMO it has yet to prove itself. But I'm not above being persuaded.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Yes, I believe that the unnecessary shots taken at MorriganShadow were of the cheap variety.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

All this 'Will DS replace poser?' stuff is total BS! DAZ have never made any mention of wanting to replace poser with another app. An alternative? Yes. A competitor? Yes, it probably will become that eventually. And why not? MC/CL/EF have had a monopoly on the poser market for a long, long time, and competition can only lead to improvements in both DS and poser. What are DAZ's motives? Pure and simple. The same as any other business. They want to expand their market, bring in new users, sell more content, etc, etc. What else do you expect them to do? Sit on their butts and wait for people to come to them? If developing a free software, or giving away the vicki/mike base figures for free is how they thing they'll achieve that goal, then why should we care? It's their business. Let them handle it. All they've done is create an embroyo alternative posing app. You'd think they'd started World War 3, judging by the reactions of some people. I use DS for some things, I use P4/5/6 for others. I don't that as being a disaster. The more choices I have, the better. And it didn't cost me a cent to get that extra alternative, which has to be a good deal in anybody's book. mac

" MC/CL/EF have had a monopoly on the poser market for a long, long time" psst of course they did. they invented the bloody thing. ;)

Can you please tell us more about advanced rigging in D|S.

I don't know if you were talking to me, but since I brought up rigging, I'll answer. :) D|S is supposed to have weight-based rigging, eventually.

Poser 7 is also supposed to have a new advanced rigging system, which is why Jessi is rigged like Posette. Supposedly, Poser's new rigging system will make the buttocks group unnecessary.

I think all rig system are garbage.

Rigging is indeed the biggest problem with Poser (and D|S). It's the area that most obviously needs improvement. So I think both Poser and D|S will be addressing it soon.

Unfortunately, I don't see any way advanced rigging can be cross-compatible with D|S and Poser, unless DAZ and e-Frontier decide to cooperate.

You know, whenever DAZ gives away something for free, it makes me very suspicious. I've tried D/S a couple of times before, even downloaded v1. Haven't installed it though. Why? The last time I did download something free from DAZ I ended up spending much more money on it then intended to make it really useable. I still regret it. I'm pretty sure it's the same with D/S. In the end I'm going to spent much more money then I ever intended to, just to make it really useable. I did try the latest beta and it wasn't sufficient for me, but with the release of plugins I can see that it may be sufficient for my needs too. But how much money is that going to cost me? That's very unsure at the moment, so I'm not going to install D/S v1.0 at all. I'm not going to get used to it. I'm not going to end up spending more then intended once more. I'm not going to fall for DAZ's latest hype once more. I'll stick to Poser 6. I know what is in it. I'm certain of it's features. I know I'm not going to spent anymore money on it, since it has more then I need. Don't know that with D/S and knowing DAZ a little, it will always cost you more then anticipated. DAZ never gives you the total price upfront, they just say it's free to get you hooked on something. We all know better, D/S isn't free at all and I'm very sure we will see many people in the future wishing they never left Poser for D/S, because in the end D/S has become far more expensive then Poser ever was.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

unless DAZ and e-Frontier decide to cooperate ahem.....yes, that would be nice, wouldn't it?

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

LOL!!! goood joke Xeno!!

It's one of those types of jokes with a serious undertone.

I believe that both companies would gain a lot more from cooperating with each other than either will from butting heads.

shrug I doubt that we'll see any move like that happen. Too bad. It would go a long ways towards improving things all of the way around in the community. And perhaps it would avoid the "Great Division" which some see in our future. VHS vs. Betamax.

I'd like to see DAZ and e-frontier get along at least as well as.....say.......e-frontier and e-on. It would benefit all of us if they did.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Now it is just outdated as is Propack Like everything else, it depends on what you want out of it. I still use P4 in the main, and it handles animation and lighting just fine for me. But then, bear in nind that I see the CS versions of Illustrator and Photoshop as wastes of time and money. If rthe current version of a program, whatever it might be, works for you, you just have to ask if it's worth it changing just for the sake of changing?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Xenophonz, Daz can be pig somtimes, they were trying to lure poser users away by catcopying some things from Poser product and steal from its dervation development. I do not think efrontier really appreciate that. It is most likely that CL won't get along and ever will enter into cooperation agreement. However as a customer, I actually have no objection to it if Daz proved D|S to be useful for my business. For right now, I think DAZ is way behind on most things that CL have developed such as dynamics, library, and etc. So I am sticking with Poser.

'psst of course they did. they invented the bloody thing. ;) ' Right, khai. Point taken. But inventing something doesn't give you the automatic right to hold a monopoly on it forever. It merely puts you ahead of the competition. Aielkema, I feel sorry for you. DAZ are giving you free software so they can force you into buying things from them. The cunning devils! I seem to recall you making this point before. You remember? The poor people who are forced to spend so much money on poser content (by DAZ, of course) that they can't feed their kids. It's a pretty poor argument against accepting free software (and then not even installing it). mac

Shade 8 is out. Look new sparklie thing.

GWeb --

In my experience, DAZ offers some of the best deals to be found anywhere in Poserdom (uh....Studiodom?). Almost every render that I do involves the use of various DAZ products.

I support DAZ. And I support e-frontier.

I would like to see them support each other more than they seem to be inclined to do sometimes.

BTW - is this thing of ours still to be called the "Poser Community"? Or should we start calling it the "Studio Community? Or perhaps some hyphenated name, like the "Poser-Studio Community"?

For some reason, I doubt that either company would like that. Which is too bad.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"Shade 8 is out" Downloaded & playing with it now

Is that the American version of Shade 8? And does it include Fei-Fei?

I just read some posts before this. EULA with Daz is a big issue. I do not think I want to hire $300 an hour attorney to take a look at it. I think it is not fair that Daz implemented wordings in it to put extra liability on customers. I would rather to buy expensive software for business use that would not do this thing. Daz was supposed to have their own derivation development with their products. Most of things from Daz are from artist contractors. I have no way knowing what kind of agreement Daz have made with them. This kind of practice is similar to Adobe. They had a lot of legal issues with outside developers. I won't want to step into Daz's product to take liability. Shade 8 renderers looks cool and breathtaking. I wonders why CL did not put that renderer engine into Poser.

How big is the D/L file of Shade 8. I've been watching for it most of the day and finally thought I had better get the lawn mowed one last time, before the snow flies.

Did Fei Fie come with it? LOL, crossed posted again, slow dialups do it to you every time.

Message edited on: 09/19/2005 18:34

Nah it's the English version Don't know when the yanks will be allowed to get their version ;) Fei Fei & the rest of the content for the Pro version will be available thru Content Paradise soon And at last the PoserFusion plugin now supports Poser 6 dynamic hair

The D/L is 481 megs, probably worth running a download manager even on DSL, I know I had to

"Let's just say articles 10,14, and 15 of the EULA are unacceptable. They could be seen as unconditional and non-specific. Article 15 could be seen as an indefinate and all-encompassing NDA and could be seen as Non-compete." Not could be. Although the specific clauses are excerpted out of context and highlighted for effect (no offense, but it also makes it more difficult to read the full text as people will tend to skip over the non highlighted parts, which are excessively important for purposes of context), it is indeed an open ended NDA. Within context, (articles 8 on, inclusive) the specifics deal with software programs(and, one could reasonably assume, with EF's potential intent), and not with the cntent itself, except as specifically provided with the program and/or for the program itself (binary data in the native format). While it could be pushed to cover content, it wouldn't stand up at the appellate level in such a case. However, there are some really interesting quirks there. The fact that damages at law may not be enough, and an injunction is possible: that's a pretty way of saying that since they can sue you into oblivion, they can shut you down and forbid you to sell anything. Protective or not, that's an ethical disaster. While its meant to stop folks who might decompile the base code for D|S itself, and not content creators (again, the all important context), it's an interesting part of the agreement that can lead to some pretty icky places. ------------------ IF V4/M4, etc, are released in strictly D|S format, well, big freakin whoop. It's neither new nor news, either -- pretty much that was exactly said by DAZ at their site in the threads regarding the milhorsie rigging, where certain bad sots were blamed on Poser's "limitations" and it was stated that the next gen figures wouldn't suffer from those restrictions. IOW, that's been the plan all along. However, that doesn't preclude Poser versions of the same things. The folks over there aren't idjits. The poser stuff may come out later than the D|S stuff, but its unlikely they will abandon Poser entirely. And, ultimately, it doesn't matter. Poser will still be around, and there will always be new things made for it. D|S is here now, and there will be things made for it. So there's no more Victoria for Poser. shrug Who the hell really gives a rats rear? Most of us bitch and moan about how we're sick of seeing her anyway ;) There will be someone else. Likely several someones. Its growth. Progress. Evolution. Business. Change. (and I've already covered the "change" thing...)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

*@maxxmodelz wrote: "ALL of these feature are available in MAYA complete today"

Just for the record, they're all also available in 3dsmax v7 and up too, which is a couple thousand $$$ cheaper than the Maya Unlimited package which, I believe, is the one you meant to specify, since I don't think Complete carries some of those features.

You're mostly right, but Maya Complete only lacks the "Fur" plug-in that Maya Unlimited has.

Just picking nits! ;)

Interesting thread. Personally, I see no problem with having both Poser and D|S Studio available.

---

FatCatAlley.net | Now Playing "SpaceCat 5" Parts 1 and 2

Oh....a few vocal parties complain from time to time about the ubiquitous presence of V3. She, and things/characters created for her, still outsell all other characters by wide margins. Some might gripe over this state of affairs. But a majority seem to be interested.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Daz Studio is FREE isn't it? Does anyone have a better deal than that? Perhaps in the future D|S will cost more than Poser; Daz is good about minimal upgrades and plug-ins. The future for Poser lies in its integration with Shade. This is what e-Frontier wants. For now I can think of no reason not to download Daz Studio 1.0 and the 50+mbs of content that accompany it. Thank-you Daz for the FREE one. You won't get a dime from me...

I think (and hope) that it will spur competition from both companies. Poser would do well to have some flexible and modular features in version 7 if it does in fact get written from the ground up - nothing says they can't take cues from DAZ or elsewhere. Studio has some nice UI features and I like the way they are implemented, though still base, but other applications have had docking palettes, tabs and such before this. Still, nothing wrong with that. Studio's Power Pose beats simple IK hands down. It is wonderful to play with. If all the plugins that come out down the road feature the same ease and flexibility, it will surely be something to see and use. This is a free base and a pretty useful base at that - no not the full feature list of Poser 6 but there's no reason that it can't be there as things come out. And if they work well and stay in a low price range, so what? I'd rather drop $10 here or $20 there for a good, functional plugin that I can use with glee rather than some miscellaneous content that gets buried eventually on the harddrive. As far as the encrypted binary format goes, besides the (.daz) scene files, there is a choice to save as a unencrypted text file or an encrypted binary file for saving lights, cameras, material and so forth. Who's to say there won't be a choice there for saving other types of content in a future build. Correct me if I'm wrong but that seems to be an unknown at this time. I guess that my point of view a bit tamed by my position right now, post Katrina (I lived right outside of New Orleans). But I sure do appreciate things more than I used too. Right now, finding a place to live that I can call my own (along with my wife and two cats) would make me ecstatic ;) Things can only go up from here, right? And I still have a great fondness for Poser 6, so don't get me wrong. I'm just in the middle somewhere between these apps. They're both tools to me. Just like the community did great things with Poser 4 (and later) with innovations and cool utilities, it can be done again for those who'd like to use both tools together. Why not?

.

I have said since before poser 5 that poser should have plugins something like the lightwave ones because they are easy to set up and use. It would mean that poser could do anything that any other 3d renderer could do, with the right plugins.

"So there's no more Victoria for Poser. shrug Who the hell really gives a rats rear?" Not me :-) With the DAZ INJ/REM/CHAN/VIS/DELTA BULLSHT* it now takes 796 Support files in your runtime to get all the "injection morphs" working ,Just for the body, on the average "unimess" clone one wonders how much more of this tedious Bloatware will be needed for the Vicky 4 figure ;-/

My website

YouTube Channel

It would be financially suicidal for daz to stop making poser products.

Message edited on: 09/20/2005 05:40

"The future for Poser lies in its integration with Shade." That's why the gross insult of the latest Shade update is so grating. I bought Shade 7 (about 2 months ago!) because I wanted something well integrated with Poser. Now they come out with a new release, and no affordable option to upgrade from my previous release of Shade. I get exactly the same deal as if I'd never bought freaking Shade at all!

The future for poser doesnt lie in its integration with shade, I tried shade and didnt like it, if they made poser integration like with vue 5 infinite I still wouldn`t like or want shade.

If the future for Poser lies in its integration with Shade then Poser 6 will be my last update for sure. EF will loose many customers if they decide to integrate Poser with Shade. Just as DAZ has lost many customers when they decided to integrate Bryce with D/S. A modeling room in Poser wouldn't be a bad thing at all, but integration with Shade would make me very unhappy, I dislike Shade very much. It's not my piece of cake, I still prefer TrueSpace 6.6

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

EF will loose many customers if they decide to integrate Poser with Shade. Just as DAZ has lost many customers when they decided to integrate Bryce with D/S. only if EF tries the exclusive intigration . If they can advance the compatibility and transferability without excluding other options (such as Vue) then i think it would be a great advantage... at least to me :) I like shade. :D I can see shade and poser getting better intigration but i doubt it will ever become on product and i hope they dont go for exclusion like D|S appears to be.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

You have to remember that e-frontier bought CL; then didn't merge. E-frontier bought CL for one reason and that reason was not to better Poser. E-frontier bought CL because CL had in place their western storefronts and distribution network. I don't know if you know this but this is very hard and costly to set up. And they bought it with the intention of selling Shade to the west. It was already the most popular product in the east. Poser integration was brought into Shade in the very first western release to help promote Shade. Have they now changed their minds???? I don't know. But I do know that Shade 8 continues to add Poser importing features. I just wonder if Poser will be like D|S and become the base product and Shade the future plug-in with the advanced stuff.

Poser is to far to become a base product. It has some advanced features and an excellent rendering engine. EF has developped P6 and as far as we know is working on P7. so we should at least see one more version of P7. Shade has it's own customer base and so does poser. I doubt the the two will merge any time soon.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

"Does anyone really believe that the encoding process is there for any reason but data protection? (Officially it's for speed of loading! - On what, a 486?) Does anyone really believe DAZ wouldn't seek protection under the DMCA? Truly ironic when you consider that the single largest beneficiary of the current open Poser formats, extending them and building products based on that EULA-forbidden reverse engineering, is ... you guessed it, DAZ!!!" Why do you think D|S doesn't support scripting? Do you think Daz will risk that someone will make his/her plug-ins (as with Poser Python) and NOT BUYING Daz ones? ;)

"So there's no more Victoria for Poser. shrug Who the hell really gives a rats rear? Most of us bitch and moan about how we're sick of seeing her anyway ;)" And with Apollo Maximus and his future female counterpart, Daz can make all V4 and M4 D|S-only: Poser users will not suffer for sure...

It would be financially suicidal for daz to stop making poser products.

I agree. I don't know if I'd use the term "suicidal", but it would unquestionably seriously hurt their business.

If V4 were to be created as a D|S exclusive model, then DAZ would be the ultimate big-time loser. Other model makers would simply produce new, svelte female models for exclusive Poser use. And DAZ would lose a major segment of their business.

For these reasons (and others), I don't think that DAZ is likely to do such a thing.

BTW - for those who don't like V3, if V3 and all of her accessories were to disappear tomorrow, another V3-like model would quickly take her place. And that new female model would fulfill the same role that V3 currently does. Renders of the V3-replacement statuesque model would jam the galleries......just like V3 does now.

The market demands it. This state of affairs isn't going to change. It's as old as mankind.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Well, there's no Python scripting, but DAZ uses a version of QT Scripting, so there IS scripting. In fact, from what I see (not having an SDK yet to be completely sure) saved light, material, shader and pose files from DAZ are really scripts.

.

By financially suicidal I meant that they might go out of business switching to daz studio only stuff. If daz stop making poser stuff it wouldnt matter much to me, I dont like victoria 3 either. Poser existed long before daz and there is no reason to believe it wouldn`t still exist after daz.

'In fact, from what I see (not having an SDK yet to be completely sure) saved light, material, shader and pose files from DAZ are really scripts' Save them as .ds files (clear text) and you'll see what's in them. I'd advise Edit Pad Lite (free) to open them. Notepad can't handle carriage returns. As far as editing goes, they're not like poser files where almost anyone can do it. I had to shout for rob W's help a few times, but I can now do quite a few useful hacks. mac PS The idea of DAZ abandoning poser products is almost as ludicrous as the DS vs P6 topic.

"Shade has it's own customer base and so does poser. I doubt the the two will merge any time soon." Put yourselfs in E-Frontier's shoes. You bought CL to spread YOUR product to the west. You aquired Poser but your aim as stated from the beginning is to grow Shade. Now if you aren't gaining the numbers of converts you wanted from Poser useres by providing integration with Shade. What are you going to do? You got it! Start providing the more advanced features in Shade and then provide Poser with the integration so you can export from Shade rather that vice-versa which it is now. Get it? In other words you create lets say dynamic cloth in Shade and you play it back in Poser.

If daz stop making poser stuff it wouldnt matter much to me, I dont like victoria 3 either.

shrug Enough people do like her to make her by far and away the top-selling figure of all time. And items created for her the top-selling items (clothing, hair, etc.) over all other character-related items.....by extreme margins.

But there's no accounting for personal taste. We are all welcome to our own preference.

Even when it's a minority view.

Poser existed long before daz and there is no reason to believe it wouldn`t still exist after daz.

True. No disagreements on this point.

Excepting for the fact that I don't expect that we'll see DAZ pull a disappearing act any time soon.

;)

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

My point was that it doesnt matter that much what daz do or dont do concerning poser, at least for me.

Poser 6 wins the feature war hands down. Poser is the best overall price/performance answer for more advanced users, but.. Most people don't animate. Most people don't do figure creation. Many (probably most) people aren't going to delve extensively into Poser's shader creation. A lot of people still seem to be intimidated by the hair and cloth rooms. I'll bet that many people don't even use magnets. In short, Studio already offers what a large number of people really need/want it this type of application. If they decide later they want more, the plug-in route is appealing because you buy only what you need, when you want, even if it ends up costing a little more. Heaven forbid, the DS plug-ins may even offer superior functionality or ease of use over their Poser equivalents. I think 3DeLight can probably hold it's own against FireFly and it should give you access to a whole raft of Renderman resources. Currently DS doesn't give you the ability to really harness it's power so we'll have to see what the rendering plug-in(s) look like and how much they cost. I think again a lot of the does it have AO, IBL, etc. misses the point that there is whole big group of people out there who aren't going to learn to use those features anyway. Whether DS will be successful I don't know but I think they've calibrated the application pretty well to the sweet spot of the potential user population. You may denigrate the "make art" crowd, but that's where the big money, if any, will be found.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

mac, I'm just saying the code in them ;) I've been saving them as non-binaries. I can isolate the materials info and that sort of thing and the initial code at the beginning looks very much like scripting versus being a file hack (MATs). Xeno, very true. I really don't like to use V3 myself but I do cater to that figure. It's financially sound and I can see that simply by looking at my own sales figures. :D Actually, Aiko 3 is my pick for the unimeshies and I know not everyone is into that one - what can I say, I'm into what I like too.

.

"PS The idea of DAZ abandoning poser products is almost as ludicrous as the DS vs P6 topic." It really isn't. If D/S will become a success and DAZ teams up with some to other major 3D apps (like Cinema4D, Lightwave and such) to allow them to import the D/S format (just like importing pz3 files in Vue or Carrara), the whole scenerio will change and DAZ could afford to abandon poser products. I'm pretty sure they just would love to do so, just look at the way they often treat P5 & P6 users, like if we're non exsistant at all. Sometimes I think that DAZ is still under the impression that there's nothing beyond Poser 4.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Netherworks --

I've got a couple of characters for Aiko 3 that I like a lot. But only a couple. I prefer realistic figures; and I don't like 'toon figures. It's that personal taste thing again.

Likewise, I think that personal taste has a lot to do with the choice between Poser and D|S.

People can list features all day long. But if someone prefers the color blue, or the flavor of chocolate ice cream over vanilla.......then no amount of arguing with them about it will change their mind on the subject.

PS -- I hope that everything is going well for you these days. Being turned out of your home by a hurricane has got to be rough. Hopefully, you'll be able to get fully back up & running soon.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Very true :) It's a bit difficult right now as we can't seem to find a permanent place to live. I have shop set up here temporarily at my mom's and I'm fortunate to atleast have something in that. Rita's making folks around here a bit nervous and that's understandable. Any strike of any magnitude around New Orleans will cause serious problems. Back to the discussion ;) Again, I like both programs from both camps and if anything the competition will be good for ALL of us.

.

Like getting an improved IK system into the next release of Poser, perhaps...? ;)

"PS The idea of DAZ abandoning poser products is almost as ludicrous as the DS vs P6 topic." I have to agree. It's a bit like the idea of a supermarket that would only sell generics rather than major brand names. There's no reason that both types of product can't co-exist side by side, and to take the analogy a stage further at least Daz don't have to worry about physical shelf space, their store can be as big as they want. If there's a profit to be turned from a product then why not stock it?

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

"I have to agree. It's a bit like the idea of a supermarket that would only sell generics rather than major brand names." I'm not sure were you do live, but in Europe we do actually have supermarket chains that do only sell generics and no brand names at all. And guess what? In this economic crisis, those supermarkets thrive and make huge profits. It's all about economics, not about reason at all. If you know your target customers then a strategy will succeed, even though it's unlogic. If DAZ plays it well, there is a huge potential market. To reach that market, they have to become dissasociated with the 'brand name Poser' Their are many 3D users that wouldn't use any poser figures at all, just because poser has a bad name in their community. (We all have been laughed at by these guys at times most likely) Often we call it snobbery, but they do represent a huge potential market. Seeing some of the latest moves DAZ is making, it seems like they're trying to build a new customer base and who knows what that may lead to? You can survive on on 'brand name only' DAZ has survived and grown large creating Poser geared content and poser releated items only. Simply because Poser has a huge user base. If they can aquire the same user base with D/S and other applications or through reaching other 3D communities, I don't see why they couldn't abandon poser altogether. You can say it's impossible, since DAZ has proven they can survive reaching one major market only. If in years to come they switch markets it would be very possible. Last remark.... Now that DAZ has it's own D/S and is trying to become less dependant on Poser and Poser is looking for new ways of rigging figures and such, who can say that Poser may not dump the DAZ support? It wouldn't be hard to stop M3/V3 inj from working in Poser 7.....

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

"It wouldn't be hard to stop M3/V3 inj from working in Poser 7..... "

Now that'd be a good way for EF to really irritate a large chunk of their customer base - stop a feature of their previously purchased content from working.

Message edited on: 09/21/2005 03:16

Dreams are just nightmares on prozac...
Digital WasteLanD

People keep saying that the poser rigging is not good and it should be changed to some newer way of making figures but if e-frontier did that, it could be that ALL the poser things that have been made so far wouldn`t work in the newer version.

I think they'd have to make the software backwards compatible in a fashion - so that the program could still read and use the "old" content (and its "old" rigging style) as well as read and use any "new" type of content (with any new rigging technology they think of). I think if they axe murdered a lot of the old content and its use in the new version, ... well... the firestorm would be pretty to watch ;) And I doubt they'd want that.

Dreams are just nightmares on prozac...
Digital WasteLanD

It might not be possible to use the old system and a newer one in the same program.

xantor, This is similar to the ongoing discussion about updating the poser code. If they did update it, there's no guarantee of backwards compatibility. In addition, the hacks we take for granted now, might disappear forever with new code. If CL/EF were writing poser from the toes up, they might well consider going binary. I don't envy them. They're between a rock and a hard place. If they do a rewrite, they're damned. If they don't, they're damned. And if they don't rewrite, things like the lack of multiple undo will remain a thorn in their side for all time. mac

How's this for a thought.... Get a really really really big harddrive. (They are up to 300GB now!) Keep the (soon-to-be) legacy POSER stuff (4-6) and still have room for the new improved recoded from the ground up version 7. Aren't some of us doing that now with 4-5/6? I only keep P5 around for use with The Tailor. If that code ever gets updated to handle the two new prop-thingies in P6 guess who is reclaiming some HDD space??

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

"Aren't some of us doing that now with 4-5/6?"<< I am but for some reason when a new version is released some users prefer to completely delete the older one. Technically im still using my original P3 runtime!! years ago I upgraded my P3 installation to poser4 then later upgraded to propack4.. same runtime. got poser5 linked to my propack4 runtime (no painful migration) bought P6 and ..yes linked to my propack4 runtime :-) I have the laster 4 versions of poser on the same machine when its time for a backup of poser I just drag a copy that propack runtime over to my external firewire server.

My website

YouTube Channel

Mea Culpa time again! I said earlier in this thread that I was p/o'ed at e-Frontier because they wanted me to pay full price for Shade 8 after buying Shade 7 less than 2 months ago.

Well, I just got this mass email from them: "Since you purchased Shade 7 after July 31, 2005, you automatically qualify for a FREE electronic upgrade to Shade 8, plus additional content when you upgrade!"

Now, I don't know how I'd feel if I'd bought it a week earlier, but I must say I have no complaint about it anymore!

Regardless of however improved upon or evolved, a Poser copy is still a Poser copy. To me the age old Eula debate back at Poser Pros many years ago was to allow Studio's creation by accessing the Poser file formats. I'll admit it. I was used and suckered like a bunch of other people with marketbabble speeches about community and "we are all in the same boat". It was never about protecting the community. It was only about getting unrestricted access to the Poser file formats. And now the Studio Eula and file formats are conveniently closed. No export to Poser, which is as easy as reading the Poser format. Poser may not be perfect, byt they also didn't have anything to copy either. Regardless of however improved, a copy is a copy. Legal or not. It is tacky.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

*"ll admit it. I was used and suckered like a bunch of other people with marketbabble
speeches about community and "we are all in the same boat". It was never about
protecting the community. It was only about getting unrestricted
access to the Poser file formats."

Reiss studio obviously has access to poser file formats in some fashion to be able
to create their bodystudio poser import plugins for MAX MAYA and Cinema4D

kuroyume0161 has a poser to cinema import plugin that he wrote based his "access"
to poser file formats

MarkDc must know something about poser file formats to be selling his Poser Softimage & MAX plugins
Dave greenbriar must know something about poser file formats to be selling his Poser LW& Cinema4D
plugin.
none of these plugin have any real options to export date from their host apps BACK to
poser except the usual 3d file formats .obj etc.

"And now the Studio Eula and file formats are conveniently closed.
No export to Poser, which is as easy as reading the Poser format."

What now "closed"file formats/features from DAZ Studio are vital to the present
or future Of poser??
that little "power pose" thingy??

activate Auto balance in P6 and get the EXACT same effect

Dform??? not even close to what Wyrrmmaster does with poser magnet technology.

export to bryce with textures intact??
Stewer has a script that does that WITHOUT the need to go though DAZ studio

no offense but im not really sure why we poser users should be treating the release of D/S 1.0 as if
the "evil empire" has completed its construction of the Death star and is about to embark upon some new reign of terror in the poser galaxy

wheres the fire ?? Message edited on: 09/21/2005 20:42

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Anton, this is nothing new. Microsoft has used Open Source material in THEIR products, but you can't access THEIR stuff either. Unless they give permission. D-Form is D|S version of magnets. You may see the D|S format of Voluptuous Vicky(tm) will be coming soon. (No, I am not in contact with the Wyrmmaster, and hopes he is safe over in the Middle East or wherever he is right now!) Wolf359, I bet the Rebels said the same thing ;) What this debate/discussion says for sure is that our little hobby is growing up but fast!

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

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"wheres the fire ??" Since when has that ever been needed for the conjecture/wild theories/paranoia/celebration to begin. The mere sight of someone walking with two sticks is normally enough lol.

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" Anton, this is nothing new." Of course its not "Microsoft has used Open Source material in THEIR products, but you can't access THEIR stuff either. Unless they give permission." And that permission is usually in the form of an SDK either public or exclusive to specific developers chosen by the owners of the new proproetary technology "Since when has that ever been needed for the conjecture/wild theories/paranoia/celebration to begin." Good point sir why bother with actual proof of a nefarious conspiracy :-) when all one needs is a deep seated long standing grudge accompanied by blatant attempts to light fires in the forums. ostensibly to Draw certain company CEO's from the fortified and Hallowed Halls of Castle Draper, out in to the wilderness where they can be attacked Directly. fortunately that certain CEO has thus far spared us yet another redux of that tired old Drama and refused to succumb to this hopelessly predictable tactic.

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For me DAZ Studio is pretty much an non-issue. I'm not going to be supporting DAZ Studio in the near future, as there are several ways that it works that are non-compatable with the way I set my clothing up and model. These are basic to the way it is programed, so I don't see them being changed. Plus I've started to make Dynamic clothing, something it doesn't support. Nice of DAZ to make it available, free and all that, but it is surely going to eventually lead to a path different from Poser, with non-compatable products. The main question is, which path do most of us want to follow. I'd suspect that V4, if and when she arrives, is either going to be a updated V3 with even more morphs or else a D/S only figure, using features from that program to do things that can't be done with Poser.

Daz Studio with current plugin releases $45.80 (non sale prices). So much for FREE. (yeah I know base is free, plugins extra). From Daz Studio Beta Press release: Python support , For-sale plugins for .LWO and .MAX import/export. Things change in production. v1.0 has neither. v1.0 does state: DAZ|Studio is compatible with all the standard content sold in the DAZ online store. Nowhere does Daz Studio state that Daz Studio is compatible with Poser 4, PP, 5, 6 or 3rd party content NOT sold at Daz online store. "why bother with actual proof of a nefarious conspiracy :-) when all one needs is a deep seated long standing grudge accompanied by blatant attempts to light fires in the forums." Daz has stated over and over again that Daz Studio was not a Poser replacement. So Daz Studio has it's own "Magnets", it's own "Scripting". When a company says something over and over again and does another if that is a grudge so be it I guess. Sometimes its more of in the past a statement is made and posters being called liers then the truth later comes out and a statement of "I told you so". "It's the end of the world ...and I feel fine."-R.E.M.

Daz studio with plugins $45.80 and it still wont have as much functionality as propack.

By now if you want all the plugins for D/S the value is $75.75. There on sale, so you only end up paying $32.08, but even that will add up after a while. I'm really glad I've got Poser 6 and that I'm very satisfied with it..... D/S is going to be one expensive application if you want all that's available for it.

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Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

"no offense but im not really sure why we poser users should be treating the release of D/S 1.0 as if the "evil empire" has completed its construction of the Death star and is about to embark upon some new reign of terror in the poser galaxy"<< I don't think anyone is suggesting anyone should be thinking that way. Except you maybe. :)At that point above we were discussing personal points of view. I know you love a good rebuttle but The "evil EMpire" part is a bit over the top don't you think?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

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The cool thing I've seen with Daz Studio is the Power Pose plugin. Inverse Kinematics in Poser 4 only applies to arms and legs as far as I can tell. Anyone know of a way to emulate the Power Pose functionality in Poser. DS is useless to me otherwise because of the inability to export to Vue, or Lightwave. I can manually copy the settings from DS and replicate in Poser but I don't look forward to that. Thanks for any help.

Stewer has a Python script that will read a D|S Pose preset, as long as you remember to select the ASCII format when saving from D|S. You can also export an OBJ file from D|S, though you'll have to recreate the material settings to a considerable extent, depending on how the destination application reacts to the tweaked-for-Bryce MTL file.

Thanks. That sounds just like what I'm looking for. I will check it out.